Hope with Holly: Reclaiming Female Autonomy

This is a paid message from GoFundMe. My name's Ashley Kane. I'm the daddy of a little girl in heaven and a father to two boys on Earth. I've got an incredible relationship with GoFundMe, both personally and via our daughter's foundation, the Azalea Foundation. GoFundMe has allowed me, the foundation, and thousands of people out there to give hope to what is in need. You'd actually be surprised how many people out there are willing to show love and support you in your time of need. My advice for anyone that needs to start up a GoFundMe would be do it. You don't need to feel shame. You don't need to feel guilt. You don't need to feel embarrassment. If you need GoFundMe, use GoFundMe. Start your GoFundMe today at gofundme.com. That's gofundme.com. G-O-F-U-N-D-M-E.com. This message reflects one person's experience. MUSIC Well, everybody, welcome back to Kate and Ty Break It Down. Today, we have a very special guest, Hope with Holly. Thank you so much for joining me for this. I've been super excited because I've followed you on Instagram for a while. I was kind of a secret lurker for a minute, and then I was like, all right, this girl's cool. So I'm going to follow her. And yeah, I just, for people who are listening, who don't know, what is, like, what's your backstory? How did we get here? How did you end up going on social media and kind of sharing all the stuff that you do? Well, so my premise of my platform is loving myself after a relationship and religious abuse. So I grew up very Christian, but Pentecostal, like prophecy and speaking in tongues and slamming the spirit and all of that, and which I thought was super fun. Besides the whole, you know, you're going to die and go to hell if you don't pick up Jesus, you know. Right, right. That was a little scary. But I went to Liberty University and got a degree in the studies. Interesting. And wanted to be a missionary and ended up marrying Jerry Falwell's best friend's grandson. Oh, wow. So I got, I became a Christian nationalist and very, of course, that's not what we called it back then. And, you know. Yeah, what did you call it back then? Well, Jerry Falwell had a program called the Moral Majority. And so that's what it was. And that sounded delightful, of course. Like we want to be moral people, you know, and save the world. But we just were Christian fundamentalists, Christian evangelical Christians. And, you know, I drank the Kool-Aid because I grew up with an extremely dysfunctional childhood, very poor. I have looked up the definition. We were definitely white trash. And. Hey, I was born in the Al's white trash too. So. Yeah, look at us. I mean, my dad's garage was bigger than our trailer, for sure. And we had like 30 broken down vehicles. And all of our family lived on one country road. And my grandmother lived with the, I don't know how old you are, but much younger than me. I'm 34. You're 34. OK. Yeah. I'm 48. So my grandmother had a police scanner in her living room. Oh, wow. That's how crazy my five uncles were. Because we were like, somebody was always in trouble. OK. Right. And so whatever you would consider white trash, that was my childhood. So when I went to Liberty, it was such a like culture shock. It was like, oh my god. I was told when I got there that Liberty was had the most beautiful women in the America, that playboy even said that we had the most beautiful women in America at that school. And I was like, oh my gosh, well, then I want to go there because I want to be one of the most beautiful women in the world. They convince you that you're special and you're chosen to be able to go there. And basically, I went there because I ended up getting a full ride scholarship. So I was just like, OK, great for academics. And was going to get into politics until I started taking my political science classes and realized, oh, you can't get anything. Because I wanted to help people. Right. And that's what I think people get kind of messed up with. Because when you talk about Christian nationalism, and there's this huge thing where they're almost raising these children to that's the goal, to get into politics, to try to change. Hundreds of thousands. Yeah. And so I think people get it. And like you said, they label it differently to make it sound very like, oh, we're going to save the world. And I think it's interesting because Liberty has a history. I don't know if you've listened to Liberty Lost podcast, but they talk about the maternity home that is still up and running there for girls who go there and are pretty much coerced into placing their children for adoption. And it's a whole thing. But if you haven't listened to it, highly suggest it. But Liberty does have a reputation. And so you're probably in there like, oh, this is it. My life is going to. I mean, it's a huge thing to get into Liberty. Yeah. It was. And I was so. I grew up in such dysfunction. Both of my parents have been married three times. My stepdad tried to kill my mom and only got three years in jail. There was a lot of domestic violence, a lot of sexual assault, alcoholism, drug, poverty. We were evicted like 13 times growing up. So when I went to Liberty, and by the way, when I was there, it had a very strict dress code. All the girls had to wear dresses and skirts. The boys had to wear a shirt and tie. And their back of their hair couldn't hit the collar. And so everybody looked the part. Everybody looked safe. Everybody looked great. And I actually had a really great experience there based on my limited knowledge of what I knew at the time. It wasn't until I got out of Liberty. And I became an abstinence until marriage instructor because. Oh, wow. OK. I waited until I got married to have sex, which is a miracle in and of itself. But I was bound and determined to be the good girl and the Proverbs 31 woman that they wanted me to be and that I needed to be. And I volunteered in my church seven days a week. I was assistant youth pastor. I was prophetic team leader. I was a healing room minister. I was the young married couples leader. I was very. Oh, so you were in it. You were in it. 100% in it. I was going, I was the girl carrying her Bible going door knocking on doors on Halloween night just to tell people that, you know, wow, that particular really sticks out for me. Like really, Holly, you did that. Oh, like I look back at what I was then, which was I graduated college in 1999 and got married. Got married the week after I graduated. Oh, wow. Jerry Falwell's church because we got it for free because. Right. Of his grandfather. And once I got very involved, you know, pastoring in the church and stuff for quite a few many years. And what changed for me was the man that I married was a man that the prophet in my church told me that I needed to marry. Oh, interesting. Yes, I was. Did you have any reservations before getting married? Oh, my gosh. OK. Dead set against it. Wow. We had started to date in Liberty mostly because it was full of Baptist and he and I were one of the few that were like Pentecostal and believed in speaking in tongues. So we went to the same off campus church and gravitated toward each other. And we started to date and I realized a few months in. Oh, this is not this is not a good fit. You know, this is he is. He definitely wants that traditional wife. Yeah. And and I wanted to be a traditional wife so bad, but I just have a mouth, you know, you have opinions. And he I'm not that silent, submissive type woman as hard as I tried to be. And I did not want to marry him. But then a prophet in my church that I did not know he was just. And can you for people who don't know what is a prophet? Like what would you consider be a prophet in your church? So these are people that there are different. The Bible talks about there's different gifts of the spirit. And some have the gift of prophecy, some have the gift of speaking in tongues, some have the gift of servanthood. We all have different gifts. So a prophet is somebody who is supposed to be able to hear from God and relay that message to the people, which let me tell you, like that's a huge freaking responsibility. And it's a huge. Yeah, I mean, that actually creates a lot of power. I mean, for for these people who claim to be the prophets, I mean, that's a huge if you're raised in that kind of environment, I mean, that's a huge like it's almost the amount of power that they have is almost scary because they can say anything. And then, of course, you being this person trying to live this lifestyle and you take what they say as, Oh, my God, this is God speaking to me through him. I mean, that's a huge thing. Not only that, but as a woman in the church, we are supposed to, you know, respect the male leadership and what the men say in the church. And so he was just a random prophet from Texas, I guess. And he was visiting our church and he called me out and said, brought me to the front. He said, the man that you've been praying about is the man that God wants you to marry, consider this as your confirmation from God. Wow. And I had just prayed the night before, like, God, this is not who I want to marry. You need to give me a sign. And the very next day this happens in church. So and by the way, I'm 20 years old, right? Right. My frontal cortex has not developed. Right. And my mother was sitting there, my whole family. And, you know, as born and raised, white, trash and poor, she was thrilled because she knew that this man was, you know, who his grandfather was, what connections we had to Jerry Falwell and the church and how successful they were and wealthy and stuff. So I mean, they were considered, I mean, if you, if you look at like a old, old, uh, royal hierarchy, they were pretty, yeah, they were up there. So, yes, 100%, you know, Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, they were good friends. And, uh, of course had their TV show. And my father-in-law actually did the camera work for Jerry Falwell's program and stuff. So I couldn't deny that this is what I was supposed to do. And my sister, however, she was not a fan of my, yeah, of this man. And was she, was she the same faith? Was she in the same kind of, okay. She was, but she did not like him and she came to me many times and was like, you don't have to do this. And I was like, I have to do it. Like, how do I hide from God? Right. Like I will be running from God the rest of my life. How do I do that? Even the night before the wedding, she came and she was like, we can get in the car, we can drive on and go. Oh, wow. Do this. And I was crying and I was like, no, no, I have to do this. And I did, got married in Falwell's church and went on our honeymoon. And I immediately knew I made the worst mistake. Oh, no. Yeah. 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And it was not, you know, it was just not something he was interested in our whole marriage for 20 years. Wow. 20 years. Oh my God. Wow. I didn't realize it. So it was 20 years of this. Years of this. Wow. But also, um, I saw his true nature because at Liberty, you were not allowed to be alone with somebody of the opposite sex. You were not allowed to spend the night over. You had to like sign out and stuff at a married couple's home. So I had never spent the night with him. I had never spent a prolonged period of time alone with him. So the honeymoon was the first time. And I just saw how we moved through life so differently. You know, he definitely moves through life. Um, you know, like a rich conservative white man would, yeah, privilege, you know, and people need to do what I say. And I moved through life much more humble and as a woman, you know, I was the helpmate and so it was just very, I want to be very, yes, I want to be careful about what I say because we do have four children together. But yeah. I was never happy and quite frankly, neither was he in the marriage. It was more like a business partnership. I'm going to make the money and provide for the family. You're going to stay home and have my children and raise them and be the tribe wife that you need to be. And I did, I did. So you had four, so you had four children. Um, and so were they, were they spaced out like, were, were they pretty quick after one after another or was it spaced out? What are the? I have a, um, I had four children in three years because I had a twin at the end, but let me rewind this story because here's the really important part. So I've already was disappointed in God by having to marry this person that we just did not get along. He did not like me, let alone love me. I was too outgoing, too opinionated, too, too much hair and makeup, you know, to, too much of everything. And he didn't like that. But, um, our first daughter died at birth. Oh no. And that's what broke me open, Tyler. Um, I, we knew, I knew when I was 20 weeks pregnant, I had an ultrasound and found out that she had, um, a rare type of Down syndrome and she was missing her esophagus. Um, when the doctor told us this, uh, we immediately went to our pastor and talk to him and what he said next to me was, do not tell a soul. Don't tell anyone that you have this incredibly high risk pregnancy because if you name it, then you claim it. I don't know if you've ever heard that term before in the Pentecostal church. They believe like, if you speak it forth, it's going to come true. So don't speak about it at all. Uh, so I told my mother and my sisters, but nobody else knew. Wow. So you sat there for that rest of your pregnancy with that. Oh, wow. I was on bed rest with, and just with an incredible risk that this was happening with nobody to talk to about it. We did go to some more prophets to get them to pray for us. And all of them said, God's going to be glorified. The pregnancy is going to, he's going to heal her. The pregnancy is going to go well. He's going to be glorified and you're going to proclaim his name to the nation as a result. Wow. When she died, I was 35 weeks pregnant. It's, it broke me so bad. You know, because I was saying like, I did everything. I don't, can I cuss on here? Oh yeah. We can just fuck, fuck shit, shit, shit. I fucking did everything right. Like I didn't have steps till I got married. I got my degree in biblical studies. I gave my career to God and I was, you know, absent, so it's a marriage instructor and in the church 24 seven totally sacrificed my life for God. Married the man that he told me to, and this is how I get rewarded. And then I also realized the prophet was wrong about me marrying this man. He and I never got along. This was not the relationship. Look, if I'm going to submit that he damn well better be treating me like Christ treated the church, you know, and loving sacrifice, you know, like being a good man. And he was great provider. He was a phenomenal provider. And he never hit me and growing up white trash. That's what I thought abuse was, right? Only if they hit you. But there was a lot of other controlling things. Emotional abuse. Yeah. And, uh, and neglect happening in our marriage. So I knew this. And then of course I have this, I had this beautiful daughter that, which I named her name was Monroe and because I loved Marilyn Monroe. Even though I was just about Christian, I left Marilyn. She had a fat ass. That's, yeah, that's kind of ironic though, how you were like, you know, I'm going to go to the, I'm going to do all these things. And then you still had this, uh, you know, attraction almost to a radically feminine woman who didn't. Yeah. That's, that's interesting. Yeah. Yes. Because my mother was like that. My mother was very confident, thick woman that pulled tail like nobody's business. It wasn't good tail. It was not quality tail. But it was tail. It was tail. She pulled tail. Yeah. You know, and so I had that with this example of my very confident mother and then I have liberty telling me, no, be quiet, make yourself smaller. So I was a constantly living with this dichotomy of how to be a woman. So when my daughter died, I was like, that's twice. Y'all got it wrong. Yeah. Said this is the man I was supposed to marry. You said that my daughter was going to live. Now I'm going to, you want to hear, you're going to hear from me, you know, you're right, right. All the questions that I had in Bible school and, you know, as a pastor, that I would go to my professors with like, this doesn't make sense in the Bible. Why is this that here's a contradiction? Cause I wanted to know because I was going to be a missionary and I thought as a missionary and as a pastor, I need to have all these answers. Right. So, and they didn't, they would just say to me, this is where you need to have faith. Bible says lean on on your own understanding and trust God. You know, interesting. So they never had any kind of answers for you and more or less like pretty much what it sounds like is they pretty much just said stop asking those kinds of questions. Yeah. I mean, they did their best to do some mental gymnastics to an apologetics to like try and make it make sense. And I'm like, yeah, that does not make sense. Yeah. You're basing that off of an assumption, not truth, fact, history, science, any, you know, proof, which has, which has to be so difficult because I don't think people understand the amount of self-betrayal, continuous self-betrayal you'd have to do to yourself in order to fit into this. Like box that they want you to be in, which is, I think kind of the foundation of where religious abuse even starts from, because you're constantly forced to minimize what your intuition is telling you. And that makes you not trust your own intuition. And it just creates this whole, I mean, cycle that I think people don't really understand it if they're not in, if they don't know enough about the fundamentalism culture, you know. Yeah. And most Christians have not read the Bible all the way through. That's very true. And if they did, it would radically change. And if they studied how it was created and who wrote it or that we don't know who wrote it and when. I mean, like the first, and you probably know this, I know you had Monty Mater on here at hell. It was amazing. You probably know that the first document of the New Testament wasn't written until 50 to 80 years after Jesus died. There was nothing written while he was alive. So I started asking all those hard questions and I couldn't go to my, I did email college professors that, you know, I would have become friends with and they still didn't have the answers. And that till this point, I was being told, you should not read anything that's secular, meaning written by a non-Christian, because that is going to be the devil poisoning you. Of course. And I just thought, look, if it's God's truth, the truth will stand up to any kind of scrutiny. So I started reading other people. First, I started with progressive Christians. I started with one of my girlfriends quietly told me, she's like, you know, maybe you should read this book by my cousin that he just wrote. You might actually really like it. And her cousin was Rob Bell. Oh, okay. That's like, okay. Yes. And I was like, wow, okay, there are Christians that aren't so rigid and aren't so prideful because I got to be honest with you. I was so prideful as a Christian because I thought now I have all the answers. Right. Right. And growing up in such dysfunction, having the answers felt so having that certainty and this, this of course is why people fall into religion so much. They want that certainty. Yep. And they want somebody to tell them. And of course this is in the early 2000s. There was no Facebook yet. There was no, the internet was very small. There was not a lot. I was at the library all the time, you know, reading through all these people's books and trying to figure this out. And it was, it was a process for me. So I became like a progressive Christian and then, and then a unitarian, a Christian universalist, which believed that everybody goes to heaven. There's no such thing as hell. Then I became like a Unitarian universalist. Then I became a straight up atheist. Um, and what's that you, that you're following the, yeah, that's usually how deconstruction works. And now I wouldn't say that I'm anything. Right. I would say that I am whatever I need to be for that day. You know, uh, I don't need to have all the answers now. And that is such a relief. Isn't it, it's freeing is really is freeing. It's a, it's a, it's what liberation of freedom. It really feels like. Yeah. And I raised my, I ended up having four children in three years, which I don't recommend that's wild. Yeah. Totally crazy. But because I had, um, a stillborn daughter and I had a miscarriage right after that, um, you know, the doctors were like, if you're going to have children, you need to do it now. Cause you're not getting any younger. Right. Right. So, but I did not mean to have twins that that was. That's like, dang. Yeah, I bet, I bet it was. You know, and, but then I got my tubes tied. I was like, lock that shit up. You're like, okay, we're all done here. Because pregnancy scared me the whole way through. I lost one in the beginning. I lost one in the end. Right. It just sucked the joy out of it. Yeah. But, uh, I raised my children teaching them all the religions from, from atheism to Buddhism, to Hinduism, to Jewish, to Muslim, to Christianity. Like you, I want you to have a choice because I didn't feel like I had that choice. Right. You know, when you're raised in it and then you go to liberty and everybody's telling you, this is it. And when you're, when you don't have social media or podcasts like this, telling you otherwise, you believe what your community tells you. And I grew up in a really small country town, like my graduating class in high school was 66 people. Oh, wow. So everybody was a Christian. Right. And even then I still rocked the boats. I, of course. For example, you just, you just had the spirit in you. You just, you just, you were born with it. I'm assuming because yeah. I'm calling it a rebellious spirit. A rebellious spirit. Yeah. But, um, I call it a truth seeker. You know, for example, when I was in high school, my senior year, I was president, student government, which meant that for our prom, I don't know if you had this, but we had this grand march where at prom night, all the couples walked out on stage while all the parents sat in the audience and took pictures. And when, oh yeah, no, no, we had that. And all the parents were in the audience and we walked out and then left and went to prom and they got to have their little pictures because I was the president of student government. I got to walk out first representing the school and I walked with a black man. Holy smoke. Oh, wow. Was there, was there not a lot of interracial couples I'm assuming in your town? Not a lot. Our town was divided by East East Street was the street that divided the black community from the white community. And the, when my, the principal found out, he called me into his office and he was like, absolutely not. Wow. You're going to walk out first. You're representing our school and our town and you're going to walk out with a black guy. And I was like, yeah. Cause I didn't understand racism. Right. Some of my dearest friends were amazing black women and still are to this day, really. And it, it didn't make sense to me. And the, I was also Miss Delaware fire prevention queen. And so the head of the fire department called me and he was like, nope, you cannot do this. You're representing us as well. Wow. My uncle called me and threatened my life. I got lots of notes in my lockers, calling me horrible names. And I decided, okay, I'm going to do it anyway. Good for you. Yeah. I do have, I also, I have a Down syndrome sister. Okay. So I grew up just rooting for the underdog. I grew up with people bullying her and standing up for her all the time. So I just have this innate thing inside of me where I just stand up for people that are oppressed. Yeah. And I did go to prom with Cache and he was a perfect gentleman and it was wonderful, better than any of my other prom nights. So I do have that thing in me that's going to question, you know, and I think that's probably what led you. I mean, the fact that you raise your kids, what I call it, I tell, um, I tell my children the same thing. I got them a book by David McAvie. I don't know if you know that he made a children's book that kind of explains all the different religions. Uh, and so that's my daughter actually her first experience with being bullied was, um, a child asked her, do you believe it? God, and she just said, I don't really know. I mean, and she got ridiculed for it in school. And that was when my light bulb went off and I said, whoa, like we're not, we're not doing this. Like I can't believe that the first time that my child was bullied is because of something like this. When, you know, when I was a kid, no one ever talked about this stuff at that age. No one cared if you were whatever. So I thought it was so shocking to me. And so I got, I got her the book and then we started, um, you know, going through the different gods and goddesses and time periods of when they, you know, worshiped and all this other stuff. And, um, and she came out of it and I told her, I said, you know, she, and she asked me, she said, why did you do that? And I said, honestly, I, I call it like spiritual autonomy because this is, we need these children need to have autonomy when it comes to their spirituality. And spirituality can be fulfilled through religion, through religion or not. And I explained to her that there's multiple ways that you can, um, create a spiritual identity outside of a religious system. And I think it's so interesting because, uh, you know, the culture in this country lately is just, I see it like getting really radical and it's, and that's why I'm like, all right, listen, I'm raising, this is my, you know, we only get one shot raising these kids. And so I'm like, I need to make sure that they understand, uh, more than I think I even thought to understand when I was her age, because it's just, it's more in their face. I feel like nowadays. Yes. Um, and so, you know, you explaining that you, you raise your children completely different. I think ghosts to show that when you learn, when you learn more, you do better. And so like, I mean, that's what we have to do with parents. I, oh, okay. He wasn't. Okay. Yeah. I would assume so. I told him, I said, look, if you want to take them to church, you are willing to take them to church. I will not stop you from doing that. You can teach them. Of course. If you want, I will teach them what I want. Autonomy, right? Um, but of course he didn't. He wanted that to be my job, that, you know, he teach them those things. This is why I married you. You know, so what a way to cop out. And good thing I didn't because now I have a transgender son and a bisexual daughter. And if I had still had my head in the sand with all of that judgment and beliefs that I had, I would have never accepted my children for who they were. You know, sad fact is that your children might not be alive today because of that. I mean, so many, so many of these kids. And that's why when people talk about it, I might listen, it, no, no belief is worth the child not living. So it, you know, like if you're going to prioritize a belief system over this child being alive or not, it does, it doesn't make sense to me. And I believe like if you put the definition of sin down to one word, it would be harm. Anything that causes harm to another person is sin. And how is being trans or bisexual? Right. Come on. Give me a break. And my son has all these amazing, wonderful other, you know, gender fluid, non-binary friends, and they're wonderful people. And they're like so open-minded and so amazing. And plus also, literally like I am extra. Like I am bougie. I have, I have fake tits. I had a tummy tuck. I've got long hair and I've gotten eyelash extensions and stuff. I wouldn't want anybody to ever tell me to be different. Right. Right. You know, I want to be exactly who I want to be. So why would I ever want to make other people not be who they are? Not only that, but cause like tremendous shame in them. Right. No. So I just want people, I think the world is so much more colorful and beautiful. It is. When everybody is just their weird, crazy, freaky, unique self. Yeah. Like let your freak flag fly as much as you want. It makes it so much better and more colorful. It does. It makes the world way better, in my opinion. That's why I, you know, that's why I, you know, I just, this whole religious indoctrination to children is really, it's, it's not, it's, it's not, I just have something I agree with. I just feel like, you know, it, it, it, what a disservice it is to the children. And honestly, it, well, yeah, I mean, to be honest, I think your experience, your first 20 years of marriage, all of that had, that was from that being implemented inside. And that's just like, look at what has happened. Look what can happen when it's, when it's taken advantage of and used as a tool of abuse and, and it's, I want to talk about, because I don't think people, a lot of people that are in it don't, how do you recognize when it's religious abuse and how do you reckon? Like how do you, there's so many people that I know of that I'm like, wow, like their husbands will say something to them or they'll, you know, and I'm just like, I just get this weird, like, oh God, like, and I don't want to, I'm not the one to say, Hey, like, you know, don't listen to him or don't do that. But at the same time, it's like, how to, how do you help people recognize and see these things? Well, so I define abuse as anytime somebody tries to control you, manipulate you or neglect you. Those three things are huge factors, whether that's in religion or not. Right. It can happen anywhere. And, and it does. So if some, if this doctrine is controlling me as a woman and telling me, you are less than, they wouldn't say that they would say a much more beautiful thing. Like you have a different role and everybody needs to do their role. And that's not true. Right. And it's not natural for a woman to submit because if it was, why are you trying so hard to convince us to do it? You know, Oh, I've gotten a lot of controversy when I've mentioned that I said, you know, and that's funny because of most of the, most of the heat that I get is from men when I said, Oh, well, men are naturally more submissive and naturally crave it more than women ever have. And the reason it's proven throughout history, I mean, or else we'd have more women in the army, we would have more women in these role. They're not. And the reason why it's proven is because there's so, you wouldn't have to make laws and stuff like, and doctrines to suppress if they were naturally supposed to be submissive. Once I had children, I realized the creator does not submit to its creation. Absolutely. Yeah. Why? I create life. I created six lives and nurtured four from my body. Why would I submit to my boys one day? Like just because they have a penis, they started off without one. They started off just like mine, you know, my body, you know? And so it just blew my mind that we were being forced and being told to be quiet. And that's what my husband would tell me all the time. Like you have to obey. That is your one job is to obey. And little side story, when we first got married, I got about these two lamps to put on our bedside table. And I said to him, I said, you know, I want to write a word on each of our lamps. That like by osmosis, maybe we will learn to do this better. So what little affirmation, maybe? Or what was like, what, and I asked him, what word do you want me to write on my lamp? That you would like me to do better at. And I'll tell you what word I would like to, I'll write on your lamp. And he was like, well, what word do you want on mine? And I said, I just want kind. Like I just want you to be kind to me, you know? Because there was no emotional safety, you know, in our relationship. And he said, OK, you need to write obey on yours. Oh, wow. And I did it in tears. Oh, like because you knew it. It didn't. It did. There was all this cognitive dissonance and I couldn't understand like, why do I have to obey you? You know, right, right? You're I mean, he was smart. He's a very smart, intelligent man. But intellectually intelligent, you know, there's lots of intelligence, emotional intelligence, physical intelligence, spiritual intelligence, so many other ways. But that was my life for 20 years. Wow. And fortunately, about eight years ago, we got divorced and it was the best day of my life. Well, I bet. Yes. And I bought 15 acres of land and. Oh, yeah. Looted to the country with my kids and. Have freedom and it's wonderful. Certainly, there are other struggles, right? Like, yeah, of course, you know, there's financial struggles and figuring out as a grown ass, fucking woman. I know. How to. How do I pay taxes? Because I had never done that before. Right. How do I make these investment decisions and how do I keep a budget? You know, because I never had control of the money. Most of the time. And that and that. See, that's what I mean when it's it's actually a disservice. Yes, it's a disservice to like I have three daughters that I'm raising. So I'm like, I'm like, I'm like trying to like beat it into their head that this is, you know, this isn't the way it has to be. And anyone that tells you different are lying to you. And I like it's a perfect example of what a way to what a disservice. I mean, honestly, to be in, honestly, what does that do to your own self? A seem like, and honestly, what does it do when you're when you're thinking of leaving and knowing that you don't know these things? I mean, these kind of things keep women stuck in this situation because everything's just grounded and pulled out of them. And it's unfortunate. And that's kind of why I'm like, why when I'm seeing this rise in this Christian nationalism and this in this red pill, man, oh, sphere shit, I'm just like, what the fuck is going on? It's 2026. How are we? How are we here in this place in society? I just it's it's mind blowing. And I and I will say, I feel like it's getting more extreme because it's being pushed into a corner that it has nowhere else to go. So it's going to it's going to get a little gritty and destructive and nasty before we finally just break. Yes, and be like, OK, you know what I mean? So that's kind of like where we're at right now. We're losing control thanks to social media. Look, there's pros and cons to social media. But of course, I have women book calls with me. I'm going to try not to get emotional. And they will say, I've been with my husband for 20 years. We've had seven, eight, 10, 12 children. I'm a trad wife. I stay home. Um, basically, they don't understand that their husband has been raping them and beating them for 20 years. And that's not abuse. They don't even know it's not abuse. Wow. Because they'll tell me their stories of, well, I can't get on the pill and he just keeps having sex with me all the time, even when I don't want to. And and I tell him, no. And he holds me down and does it anyway. And I'm like, honey, that's right. And they're like, how can it be rape when the body's Bible says that my body belongs to my husband? And I'm like, OK, it's written by men. It also says your body belongs to him, too. So tonight I want you to go buy a big old strap on it. I want you to peg the fuck out. And tell him that you're his. His. Absolutely. And, you know, and they're like, oh, you know, and they're and they're telling me like how he's grabbing their throats and shoving them against a wall and punching them in their sleep and beating them. And they think that this is OK because they said something that they shouldn't have said. And so they deserve it. And I'm like, no. So that is my goal. I am. Yeah. An extreme feminist at this point, you know, intersectional feminist. I really feel like at this point in time, if you're not something's wrong with you. Like if you're not a radical feminist in this time that we're at in society, then you're you need help because they've been so many women have been brainwashed. And when you're raised indoctrinated to believe that the highest role that you can have is to get married and have children and raise your children. And although it's a sacrifice, sweet lady, it's a sacrifice. Your reward will be in heaven. You know, that they make it sound so magical and virtuous and amazing only to live it. And you realize, holy shit. When you give your life to this man, the man that feeds you can also starve you. Yeah. You know. And and so it was a shock for me coming 20 years later and coming out with. I mean, I had a degree in biblical studies. Yeah. What am I going to do with that? Now that I don't have a belief in that anymore. Yeah. But I actually think it's what a beautiful thing, though, because what a beautiful tool. I mean, if you I mean, like you said, most, I believe this most Christians have not read the Bible front to back and and not only that, but learned the translations where it came from and all that kind of stuff you have. So you have this amazing and knowledgeable tool that you can actually use to hopefully stop women from having to go through what you went through. And I think that's really empowering. I mean, honestly, you took what you went through and even during the time you may have been oppressed and whatever. But now it's it's it's we can use it now as a tool. And I think that's why I think people like you are so important on social media, especially as a woman who's not only went through this abuse, but then got out of it and then has the knowledge behind it to to to, you know, to help educate. We have to keep talking about this stuff, even though it's uncomfortable. I mean, everyone's we have to. Yes. And so I have dug deep into my healing. I've learned about nervous system regulation, polyvagal theory, internal family systems therapy, like how to heal your nervous system, how to heal your thoughts and re rewire your brain with neuroplasticity. I have science is my God now. Right. Like so I help women rewire their brain, get a high host retreats at my house every month. Oh, wow. In June, I host LGBTQ retreats in November. I host trans retreats because it's trans awareness month. But the rest of the year, I host women exclusively to come to my farm, stay in my house. They get spa treatments. They get reiki. They get they do breath work. We make friendship bracelets and just talk about healing and how to regulate their nervous system and and to heal again and to deconstruct all of the beliefs that we have learned about what a woman should be. Yeah, which that's amazing. I don't think that there is any one definition of what a woman should be. I think we should just be whatever the fuck we are. Right. Right. Which like you said, we are. I mean, like I always talk about, you know, the the bearers of life, the creators of life. And I get a lot of mad, angry, kind of defensive men that I'll say when I say, listen, contribution is not the same as creation. And you have got to accept the fact that you contributed your D.A. and had your little little three second amazing thing. And then now you have not grown organs. You have not grown bones. You have not sacrificed your body in any way to create and bear life. And so they look at it when they hear this. I'm like, the response is always so like this role. They're like, wait, wait a minute. It wouldn't happen without me. And I'm like, dude, just sit down. If me telling you that contribution is not the same as creation is offensive to you, then you need to do a lot of work. I tell them in a way that they can understand that you're the spark plug to our engine. Yeah, right. You you you had a spark. You had a five second contribution. Yeah. You know, yeah. And that is it. And not to say that it's a man in your life still isn't valuable or your partner right to protect you through the process and stuff. Of course. But that this is why the patriarchy was formed, because I think that men just got really insecure about it. The ego is like, yes, calm down, everybody. And this is what I teach women. I say all the male spiritual leaders in our time. Don't read them because men's spiritual growth is killing their ego. But a woman's spiritual growth is growing an ego. Yes, correct. This is what Elizabeth Gilbert teaches. And I heard it a few years ago and I was like, that is so true. Because men are raised in the church and in patriarchy to believe, you know, lead, take charge, be a man. It looks like this. Get that ego up and women are right. Be small, be quiet, be agreeable. So I'm constantly my platform goes back and forth between deconstructing, helping people deconstruct from religion, helping women recognize abusers, including our president. And helping women also heal their nervous system. We'll be able to recognize abuse and grow in their own unique spiritual path, whatever that is, right? Because I don't think I think there's so many paths to the same destination. Right. And we all just take different paths. And that's because we're all different. Yeah, yeah, I agree. You know, that's why I think it's really important to keep to keep talking about it. Because I noticed even in my own comment section, you know, I made a post about, you know, Alex Pretty and Renee Good and just where I stand on things. And the comments were very disappointing. I was like, wow. And I and I and they were I'm unfollowing you and I'm just like, please leave. Like I was so happy. You don't have to announce your exit. Get out of here. I want to you're doing me a service by getting out of my energy field. You need to get out of here because I don't you're not welcome here. And so and but that's why I thought it was so important to like talk of people like you and Monty. And just just everyone who who's on the who's at the forefront of really trying to make real impactful change and obviously being a girl dad of all of all daughters. I'm like, I want to push this as far as I can. It can go because they're going to be raised in a world that's far different. And and hopefully I want it to make sure that's different in a good way and not a bad way. And I'm seeing a lot of like regression happening. And I'm like, what's going on? Well, Tradwife movement and in romanticizing oppression, romanticizing submission. It's just what I'm like, what is what is going on? And I just yeah, I think it's important to keep having these types of conversations and going to retreats like you have. I mean, I would love how do people where were they find a retreat like this? I mean, how can they go about? Hope with Holly is my platform and I'm on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube and TikTok. And they can go there and click on my link and sign up for I only I only allow 10 women each time just because I like to keep the stuff that comes up for some women. So yeah, keep it small and safe. So in good conversations and in easy and especially for my my introverted friends, like, yeah, I don't want them. I've never been an introvert in my life, but I all my best friends have been introverts, so I understand their so I try to keep it small for them. But I also do zoom calls two times a month called the sisterhood membership where women can come on and I call it the year to self respect. So I teach them how to regulate their nervous system and then how to manage their thoughts and how to change their thoughts and have more self confidence and self respect for themselves so that they enforce their boundaries more and they don't settle for any type of toxicity, disrespect or abuse. Yes, great. Yeah, good. I am, you know, I just I grew up with all sisters and with a mother that was abused so much and watching that growing up. I just don't want that for anybody else. And I know that I kind of followed in her footsteps a little bit. But I got out. Oh, but you got out. I got out and my sisters, all of my sisters have now divorced men that are like this. And oh, we are free and we, you know, make our own money and live our own lives. And listen, I have 15 acres that I cut the grass myself. I have a 60 inches John Deere lawn mower that I change all three blades with the impact drill myself like I watch YouTube videos, friend. I can figure that out. Yeah, right. I don't want to buy it. Yeah, but I mean, that's a day and age that we live in now is YouTube. Hey, listen, women can do anything. Really, honestly. And I got protection as well. And I'm a really good shot. And I am I take care of myself and my and my kids. And, you know, I I do have a boyfriend and I he was not raised in the church. And he was not he was raised by a strong mother. And so when I tell him these stories, he's always just like, what? I know it's it's mind blowing to people who were not involved in fundamentalism or any of this like, you know, patriarchal nationalism kind of thing. And and that's why it's like, I mean, I was raised by a single mom and my sister. And so, you know, watching her do, you know, just go through the trials and tribulations of raising kids on her own. It always amazes me when I, you know, step back and go, wow, like, there's people out there who actually believe this stuff and really like and not only believe it, but they push it, they sell it. They make it sound so amazing. And now we have these, you know, it's almost funny. Now, I think we're at a crossroads where there's there's creators like, you know, West Huff and then there's creators like Dan McClellan and they're in their totally polar opposite. And it's like, that's why I feel like it's getting it's seeming so scary and crazy because we are getting to that breaking point. This this final threshold where I hopefully just let's get let's get knowledgeable, get, you know, come on, let's break it. Let's break out of this thing. It's so what it is. It's it's an identity crisis. When you are conditioned and brainwashed to believe that this is the truth and it's really like deep into your identity, you believe it, your whole community, your family, everybody believes it. And so when I walked away, there was so much grief. Yeah, so much grief, not only because I was dealing with the death of my daughter, but I was dealing with the death of a dream of what my future would look like. The death of who you thought you were. I thought I was a woman, the death of my God and my purpose, the death of my community. I mean, scary. People were not happy with me. Yeah. How could I be angry at God and walk away? And I really was alone. And yeah, it was before podcast and social media existed. So I was just always in the library reading different books and trying to figure this out for myself. And it's a very lonely road, not so much anymore because we're talking about it and stuff online, but a lot of people don't have the emotional stability to walk away from their community, from their beliefs and have this identity crisis that crisis that just breaks you open. And that identity crisis is kind of inevitable. Like you can't, you have to go through it. Unfortunately, it's the unfortunate part of, you know, you have to go through it in order to get to the other side. But on the other side, it's a beauty. It's freedom. It's liberation. It's it's it's it's true autonomy, which I think in reality, every human being on the planet should agree with that. They should. Everyone should want everyone else to have autonomy over everything, spiritual, body, health, all that stuff. And to argue against it is to argue against humanity itself, which is weird to me. So I think it's really important. People to know, because first of all, it makes you feel superior to think that you know better than everybody else. So you have the answers. It makes you feel you would. I would not have ever called it pride, but it was definitely pride. And, you know, I was just like poor thing. Yeah, right. Right. I don't know the truth. You know, poor little thing, you know. And now to people ask me all the time, well, what do you believe now? And it's so nice to be able to say, I don't know. I'm just here for the ride. And I don't need to know. I feel like my purpose in life is just to experience life. Right. The good, the bad, the ugly and to grow and to just taste all the beauty and and and the blood, you know, that happens and grow and just become more resilient. And I don't love that. You know, yeah, I'm well, I don't want to have to be more resilient, but damn it, I am. Yeah. And I think that, you know what? Life, when you look at the universe, it's so there's so many incredible, amazing things, and there's also so many horrific, terrible things. You know, we have rainbows and sunshine and magnificent views and we have tornadoes and hurricanes and bugs that kill people, you know, and bugs that heal people like it's just life. It's funny because I always tell my my daughter, I'm like, you know, it's interesting because the whole story of the creationism versus, you know, scientific evolution or whatever. It's like the real scientific evolution is so much of a cooler story, in my opinion, than any kind of how can. And so my daughter, it's funny because we she's into science. Like I am. And so we'll go camping and stuff. And she'll literally meet a random kid and she'll go, do you know that we're made from stardust? Like, isn't that so? And the kids like, what? And then she gets to explain it and just seeing like the the the amazement in her eyes when she's talking about it. It just like brings me so much joy because I'm like, all right, we're doing something right here. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I agree, because it never sat well with me that what do you mean that God sent his biggest enemy to live on earth with his children? That's like you sending your kids to grow up on Epstein Island. Right. And walking away and then coming back at the end of the life and being like, don't you love me? Yeah. And they're like, why would I love you? You put me here with all with all this horrible, horrible mess. Yeah. Well, then you're going to burn forever in hell because you don't love me. Like, yeah, why? That doesn't make any sense to me now. It doesn't. What? Once. But, you know, my prefrontal cortex had to fully develop. And of course. Yeah. And and, you know, I walked away. I think I was like 27, 28 years old when I. Oh, wow. So so you were. I mean, yeah. So it wasn't like, I mean, you were in it for a while. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all my kids, babies got baptized in the church. Even though I was starting to deconstruct, I was still. Of course. What's a process? I think people think that you deconstruct in one day. No, it's a long, you know, ongoing process. For a while, because it's like, in case I'm wrong. Right. Right. Let's get everybody baptized and let's, you know, search. But then we finally moved. We moved to Charlotte, North Carolina, because we had lived in Cleveland for 10 years. And when we moved to Charlotte, I went around and this is something that you can do. You can call pastors of churches and you can interview them. You can go in for an interview. And I went around and I interviewed a bunch of pastors to see. I had my list of questions like, what do you believe about this, this and this? And as a biblical scholar, like I have questions. Yeah, right. Right. Because there was no way I was going to sit in the service and hear somebody teach anything remotely close to hate. Right. Right. You know. And so I had a lot of questions and shockingly enough, none of them answered the questions the way I wanted to. So I never went back to church, but some of them told me, listen, I will, I agree with you on all of your things. Because I had a lot of questions about the LGBTQ community. Women, people of color, like if you're going to come from these people, I'm not going to attend. And they would tell me, I agree with you, but I can't teach that from the pulpit. Wow. My the. Did they ever give a reason why? Well, some of them were in, you know, like Methodist or Episcopalian or like a part of a association. And so they have to follow the guidelines of the association. Other than others were like, my congregation would never accept it. You know, they just they're too close minded to that. And I'm like, what a sad. What a sad. Yeah. You're fine. That's crazy. Like, you know, it's money. It's money. If I don't, when I was a pastor, one of the pastors came to me and said, Holly, if you ever got your church one day, what would you teach? And I looked at him and I was still full fledged Christian nationalist. And I looked at him and I said, everything that you're too afraid to teach on. I would be talking about abuse, marriages, parenting, you know, sex, all the things that you all won't talk about. Oh, well, we can't really talk about like, you know, we have to walk a fine line because people won't tithe. And if they don't tithe, we won't have a building, we won't have a church and we can't outreach. So it's always. Oh, so you're saying there's greed involved in the church system. No way. No way. I swear. Yeah. Wow. Right. Yeah. I mean, that was when Jesus, Jesus, the two people that he really came against in the Bible were religious people and wealthy people. Yeah. Those were the two. And then when you combine the both, the both of those together, you have the perfect storm of people masquerading around as virtuous and morally superior. When really, you know, they're at home wearing like Kristi Noem's husband, prosthetic bras and being a bit though. Yeah. And that, yeah. And that's kind of why, like, you know, I mean, I even, I share my personal Facebook page all the time about like, here's another one. I mean, like the number of children being abused by their youth pastors or they're, they're someone in their congregation. And it's like, listen, there is a pattern here. And if we're not willing to like sit with the uncomfortable feeling and recognize this pattern, then these children will continue to be abused and hurt. And so like, what are we doing as a society? By moving, like, you know, I recently found out that a youth pastor was got in trouble for, you know, abusing a child and they just moved him to a different state, just moving to a different state, to a different church. And I'm like, what is, I said, like, it, it's mind blowing to me that the automatic reaction isn't to call the cops and, you know, get these criminals off the street. You know, you're just moving them around because you're so afraid of, you know, shame coming to the church or the, or the, the, the congregation. It's like, if you're prioritizing the church over the safety of children, we have a huge problem. And that's exactly what's happening. They are prioritizing their bank account money. They don't want to lose the congregation and lose the money. And so, you know, recently, funny enough, I had a lady book a call with me a few weeks ago, who was my former pastor's daughter. Oh, wow. After 20 years, I have not talked to her in 20 years. And she booked a call with me and I was like, this is going to go one or two ways. We're going to do it. But okay. And she is full on lesbian now, feminist, walked away and her father does not speak to her. And he is now in trouble in the news because their prophets, right? They were called, uh, looking at people's Facebook pages during the sermon so that they could get information about their life so that they could speak into their life with all this knowledge from God that they got from Facebook. Manipulating manipulation. Exactly. Oh, wow. So control manipulation and neglect. You're neglecting the children. You're controlling everybody, but they wear purity culture, everything like that. And you're manipulating them with your stupid ass lies and just not being genuine because if it was God, you wouldn't need Facebook. Yeah, exactly. Right. Right. You don't need to do any of that. But when I was trained as a prophet, I was trained as well and I prophesied it over people and it's. And what, and what do you do by train? How do you get trained as a prophet? How do you either, you know what I mean? How does that even work? Because if you're a prophet, you're a pro, like how do you get trained to do something like that? Right. Yeah. We went through training and basically we were taught to observe. Okay. Pick up on cues to, um, like, for example, a lady came in with a purse and she put it on the ground and it was full of makeup. So what? So, okay, this is, this is shameful. So my 21 year old dumb ass self was like, Oh, the Lord is telling me, you know, that I can see that you love beauty and making women beautiful. And, you know, all this vomit spewing out of my mouth and she's just like, Oh, yes, thank you God. Yeah. See, I wish I could go back and ask for forgiveness of every single person that I influenced their decisions in their life. Right. These people are making decisions like I did based on what these prophets said. And they're literally just making shit up. Wow. I mean, literally manipulate. And that's the clap and that you, it's manipulation of people taking, taking advantage of their, of their, wow, that is, cause I always thought that was interesting how they're like, Oh, I went to this school who taught me how to, and I'm like, how do you, how are you taught like how to do this? And that's actually insane. Why isn't he telling, why didn't he tell you about Epstein? Why didn't you tell you about the abusers in your church? Why didn't he tell you about all these abusers around the world and that you could go reveal this shit? No, instead you're just giving people false hope in order to get their attendance and their money. And that's why I think it's important to talk about it. Like I know obviously you're like, Oh God, if I can go back and ask for forgiveness and I feel ashamed, but it's, it's important to talk about it because people really are relying on these prophets, these pastors, whatever that are, I mean, they're really making life altering decisions based off of this information. And so I think it's important to talk about the method that they use to deliver these prophets or whatever, or these, you know, prophecies, messages, whatever you want to call it. Um, and it's important to talk about. And, um, I, I'm, I'm happy that you're having enough courage and, you know, your vulnerability with what you talk about on your page. Um, you're not, you don't shy away from your past. You don't, um, you know, you don't try to hide you in a way, you embrace it and use it. And I think that's really important and admirable. Nobody to hold me accountable for what I say. I don't have a man telling me what I can and cannot talk about. I don't have, okay, my children do my children are sometimes like, cut that shit out, mom. If you're your dildo again, like all my friends are watching and they're, you know, so I've had to like pull back a little bit in certain areas because I am set because I think that so much secrecy is held in the darkness, you know, and I don't have, um, I don't get embarrassed. I am what I am. I have been through hell in my life and I have come out every time on the right side, you know, and so what is, what are you going to do? What are you going to shame me? Yeah. Right. Right. Right. You're going to make what, you know, come on, like I don't give a shit. Yeah. You know, I live on 15 acres of land with me. My children are all gone in college and all over the place. But, but alone, basically I have a woman that lives with me because I believe in women taking care of each other and helping each other out and stuff, but nobody's telling me what I can and cannot say. Yeah. And I just sit by myself and just talk and it all just spills out. And then I have to edit afterwards. And there are some things afterwards that I'm like, pull back on that. I like girls. Yeah. Yeah. You don't need to be saying all that. You're going community guidelines. You know, yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. But I, but I think shame is, it's an interesting concept because, you know, it's such an external thing. Like, oh, I'm shame, shame, shame, but like I'm the one who accepts it or not. Yeah. So you can, you can believe that you can think that I should be shameful about something I did. But if I don't hold that shame, then there's no power in it. It's just your opinion that you believe that I should be shameful about something. But if I'm internally not shameful about it, then there, it's, there's no power there. What are you going to say to God when you're standing before the pearly gates? If I'm going to ask lots of questions, I said, oh, what the fuck, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. If like, I always tell people like, I, big fan of Jesus, I thought what Jesus did and what he came to say was definitely radical for his time. Radical woke guy. Radical woke guy that got him killed, you know, as a result. Fan of Jesus, the Bible, who has a degree in it. Yeah. Lots of problems with the Bible. And so the fact, you know, like if I'm standing before God, I've got a million questions, why did you allow this? Right. What is like, no, this is not acceptable. I'm a better parent than you are. Right. Right. In my opinion. Yeah. How is that possible that I am a better parent? I have more forgiveness. I don't require a blood sacrifice to forgive my children. Yeah. I would never condemn my children to hell for eternity. And I know that this is not true. So, so if you are real and you exist, why did you allow this to continue? Right. And allow people to weaponize it. That's what I think people don't understand too, is when they say, oh, that's what the Bible says. And I'm like, yeah, but you're not, you're not doing the history on who wrote this Bible and how this Bible came to be. And in the history of all the different councils and constantly, all the stuff that you really, in my opinion, like I feel like if anyone is going to be, you know, really just preacher or pastor, I think it should, you need, it should be required that you do this history because I have a, I have a suspicion that if you really followed the history and did it all, you'd come out the end being like, maybe I, I don't know if I want to be a preacher anymore. Cause this is, you know, you come to realizations that you can't really ignore. Uh, and that's why I think it's so interesting when people will like, you know, if I post, like I posted a video of me meditating, um, with my incense and stuff and people immediately was like, that's demonic. You're, you're setting your children up for, for, to burden hell. And I remember thinking about how like, wow, I had no idea that crystals and incense could be such a really wild, all you guys up. Like I can't believe you're offended by incense and crystal. That's my blowing. That God made. It's like, what is happening? Like God made a crystal. It's not bad. He also made weed. Weeds not bad either. Which I love, you know, there's a goodness, you know, or marijuana. Yeah. But, oh yeah, we can. Okay. Good. But, you know, I am, I feel so free and I love that, um, I can share this with women. Now I also think that church plays a, a beautiful role in people's lives. I was going to ask you kind of like, what do you think religion, how do you think religion hurts women? How do you think religion helps women? Um, I think it hurts women and men. Yeah. Yeah. You know, by telling them what their roles has to be. Like, yeah, you know, I know men that got married and they are terrible with money. They cannot lead worth shit. They, and they should not be the leaders in their marriages. And yet their wife is still, he's still demanding that he is the leader and he should not be the leader. Like, so, and he walks around with shame every day too, that he's not doing it good enough, you know. So I think it hurts men and women just by telling them what their roles have to be and that one is higher than the other. The fuck. Get out of here. Get out of here. Yeah. You know. But what church does and why people are drawn to it is, is it allows people to have community and as humans, like our nervous system needs, we need a village, we need belonging, we need community. So that's why I started, um, I started a group in my city called Soul Sisters of Charlotte and I've been helping women open these, uh, groups up all around the country, um, putting them in different cities all over the country so that women can still have community. Yeah. We need community. It helps us, uh, we co-regulate each other, our nervous systems, you know, and we hear the stories and we're not so alone. You know, last weekend I hosted a lot of women at my home, um, and we just sat around and sat for five hours talking and sharing stories and everyone feels seen. You know, like, oh my God, me too. How are you handling that? What are you doing? You know, and people get to open up and be, so the community is great. There are certain churches that I personally to this day still help, um, because they really are about outreach to the community. Yeah. They're really about food drives and clothing and toys for children. Now that I will stand behind. I will donate. I will help. That's good. So there's, we have taken what's beautiful and just turned it into something really ugly. Yeah. But that's because people want to feel above somebody else. Yeah. And it's interesting that you bring it up because really when it comes down to it, we're human beings. We're a species that is really reliant on tribes. And so, you know, being the feeling of the natural desire to be tribal with other people, human beings is primitive. It's in our, it's in our DNA. So I think that's where religion kind of fills that little, it kind of fills that gap in there. Like, oh, well, I can come to this one space that we can sing together or hands go up. I mean, there's a science behind how they use worship music and how, um, you know, how they get people to, you know, quote unquote, feel the Holy spirit. I mean, there's a science behind it. I don't think people are ready to really dive into that science. I think it's called community effervescence or something like that. Yes. Yeah. Um, the same thing happens at pep rallies and football games and concerts and stuff. Yeah. And it is very, very accurate. Yeah, it is. And as a matter of fact, the first time I sat down with a woman who did like a Hindu mantra thing, I was so triggered because it sounded like speaking in tongues and the church that I came out of. And so then of course I like deep dived into this is not just a Christian. Like these are things that help us. Like, right. Where or speaking positive, like is the same as Reiki, you know, exactly. Speaking positivity over somebody. You're touching somebody or not touching them laying on of hands for people. We're co-regulating each other's nervous systems. Being in community is good, you know, helping one another. So there's all these benefits. They're just being used in a destructive way. Right. Right. Because of pride, like people want to, but also not everybody has the brain capacity to live with uncertainty. Yeah. And that's kind of where I feel like we need to get to a place where it's okay to say, I don't know. And I think that's where I love. That's why I love science so much because science, science is not afraid to acknowledge its limitations. It's not afraid to say, I don't know, let's keep trying. Let's keep figuring this out. It has no, you know, and I think there's a lot of actually it's scary, but it's still freedom and certainty is still this kind of, oh, like, okay, well, I don't know. And just accept the fact that you don't know. And it's, it's okay. It's fine. It's so hard for people. The thing that broke my brain open is I went to the library. They recommended, one of the librarians recommended this book called The Denial of Death. And I read it. Oh my God. I have never heard or read anything like this before in my life. And ultimately what it said, the conclusion was when animals in nature are faced with present danger, there's a lion standing in front of them. They experience fear. But once they're out of that fear, they don't experience fear on the daily. But humans, because we are conscious and aware, we know that death is inevitable and it's coming and we're conscious of that. That fear creates so much anxiety. So humans had to invent religion and afterlife a God in order to subside that fear so that they would could believe that they will live forever and have that certainty, but not everybody can have the nervous system or the critical thinking skills to be okay with not having certainty. Yeah. And I, and I think it's interesting because I talk about that with my daughter when we were, when we were going through the whole list of all the different religions and she asked me, well, why, why did they do this? And I, and I said, my theory really is that human beings, this was to make sense of a world that they didn't know yet. And so why does a lightning strike the tree? They're going to, is Zeus, and they're going to come up with these, these, you know, myth myth mythological reasonings because they didn't know yet. And I explained to her, but that is why I believe science is so important because science has, we have, we have answers to these things now. And that's why it's so important that we don't, uh, you know, try to limit it and try to minimize science. I mean, we need to embrace it and accept it. And so I think it's interesting how like, you know, as, as human beings, you know, there was, there was a, there was a real big use for it back then, but we're, you know, it's 2026, we're evolved, we're smarter. Uh, we realized that we're animals and, uh, she thinks that's so cool. By the way, she's like, we're animals. I'm like, yeah, we just happen to be the smartest animals on the planet. Someone say, what are you against that? But, you know, yeah. I'm like, oh, I'm into dolphins. Yeah, right. Um, but yeah. And so I think it's so interesting how when you, and I see, I, I, you can see it in children, like my, like my daughter versus, you know, someone else who's obviously being raised with different beliefs. And you can almost see the, um, like, you know, my daughter has a, has a fluid thing to her and kind of a, she's not as afraid and she's not as, you know, withdrawn and, um, there's a difference there. And so I hope, you know, as we keep talking about stuff like this, we realize at least let the children have spiritual autonomy at least. Right. I mean, they're not going to do that. Cause they're trying. Cause what I was taught was we have to create an army for God. I know. That's what I think people don't understand is that, you know, they think it's some kind of like conspiracy theory, but it's not there. They're, they're sending these children to these colleges with the goal of being lawmakers and policy change makers. And that's to me is what's really scary. And that's why I think Christian nationalism is one of the biggest threats to democracy in this time period that we're in, unfortunately. And brainwashing the women so that we will brainwash our children. You know? Yeah. But the crazy thing is, even with all the science, we still have so many people that are flat earthers, never went to the moon. Like, don't believe, you know, in true science. So even with the truth, people want to deny it. And because they, you know, it makes them feel superior. Like they know something that we don't. Which is so weird. So it's, I mean, when you really break it all down, it's, it's a system based off fear and shame and wanting to be superior, which are so such negative things when you break it. Like who wants, why do you want to be in this kind of system? It doesn't reward anybody. It's, it's horrible. Right. I agree. And why do we need blood for forgiveness? Why do there need to be a sacrifice made by animals or Jesus or anybody for forgiveness, because humans can forgive without blood sacrifices. Why can't God? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I agree. Are we being told from a young age that we are sinful, broken, horrible? Well, that's, that's my biggest problem is that, I mean, my mother got saved when I was about 14. So, and then obviously, you know, when they, when people first get saved, they're very loud and very into it and it's great, whatever. Um, and so when she got saved when I was about 14 and you know, it's, it's one of those things when you're raised a certain way. I mean, she was a bartender on the weekends. She was, you know, she was a single mom. So she was, she was rough. She, you know, we got back in the mouth and we talked back and all that kind of stuff, but you know, she got saved and all this new stuff started happening. I remember thinking like telling her like, you know, you know, oh, it's all thanks to God. I remember being a young kid and being like, well, mom, no, that was you. Yeah. Like that was you, like you did that. Like, so, um, I think it's just one of those things where, um, we, we still have a lot of work to do because like, even like you said, even with all the science, we're still clinging onto this, this thing. And it's like, what is going, we have such a fear of abandoning this system. And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's weird. It doesn't make sense to me. Which is why we have, you know, every few months, oh my God, Jesus is coming back. You know, so get your life together. So Frank, they've been saying that for 2000 years. Paul said it would happen in his lifetime and it's not, you know, so. Oh, Paul. Paul and I have this as well. Yeah. That's a whole other podcast. The point is it is fear. It's a fear based system and fear is motivating for people. Yeah. Fear makes people want to have certainty. And you know, a lot of people say, well, but Holly, what if you're wrong? I'd rather believe this and live this. And if I'm wrong, whatever, nothing happens. But if you're wrong, you go to hell. And I say to them gladly. I know I'm, I feel the same way. I'm like, listen, I don't want to be up there with these people. I really don't. I really don't because yeah, I just, I don't, I have no desire to be up there with any of the people that I have witnessed and seen. Yeah. God, I'm the new head of HR. Everything now, this is crazy. You did not communicate well at all. What happened to your communication skills, Scott? Why is it not written in the sky for every, why was it not, you know, in Roman, the book of Romans, it says that God has written his word on our heart. And I'm like, well, then why is everybody interpreting it differently? And the Bible says that God is not the God of confusion in Corinthian. So why are we all confused? Yeah. Make it make sense. Make it make sense. So listen, I am fine if people want to believe in God, if they want to believe in horoscopes, if they want to believe in crystals, if they want to believe in whatever spaghetti God that they want to believe. As long as you don't weaponize it and use it to harm others or restrict other people. Right. Exactly. And that is why people are like, why do you always talk about this and come against Christianity? Why don't you go? Why aren't you talking against Muslims or Jewish or whatever? I'm like, well, first of all, that was not my circus, not my road. You know, like I'm going to talk about what I know. But second of all, it harms so many people. Yeah. Yeah. At the same time, Dave will come back and say, and it also helps so many people. Sure. Sure. Community will help people, you know, being a part of something will help people having hope will help people, which is why I call my platform Hope with Holly, even though I don't believe in this, I still live a hopeful life. Of course. I believe in life mastery that you can be in charge of your, not to a certain degree. Listen, we could get a huge philosophical conversation about whether we have three will or not. Right. Right. Right. Yes. But, you know, like I believe that I can take charge of my life and make it what I want to make it. And yeah, and I have been doing that and not an easy journey, but a free journey. Yeah. A journey where all are welcome. A journey that where it's safe and healing takes place, like true healing in our body. Yeah. With our nervous system and with neuroplasticity in our brain. Like I that I want to offer people a different alternative to church. Yeah. Right. So technically I am a pastor now, just on social media. You're doing great. I think it's amazing. I love it. I love it. But I talk a lot about like relationships and making relationships safe because there's a, here's the thing. I don't always get women to change their minds and open their minds when I talk about the God stuff, but I do get them. If I can talk about relationship stuff and how your partner should treat you and what's respect and what's kindness and emotional safety. And once I can get them talking about that, then you can recognize abuse better. Right. And then you'll see it. It probably recognize oppression better. And then you start kind of opening your eyes over here and oh, well, yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. I just need to, I help women recognize abuse and what healthy relationship should look like so they can see, oh, my pastor is abusive. Oh, my husband's abusive. Oh, is God abusive? Right. Right. You're like, yeah. According to the Bible. According to the Bible. Yeah. According to the Bible, Satan killed seven people, Joe's family, and he had permission to do that. God killed, killed millions. God was the first sex trafficker with the Midianites and he told them kill everybody except for the 32,000 virgin girls and take them for yourself. That is sex trafficking. It is. God was the first Epstein. I think a lot of people don't are not ready to have that conversation. Unfortunately, but I think platforms like this, opportunities like social media gives we're getting there. Like we're slowly getting there. And that's why I wanted you to come on here. I was so interested to have a conversation with you and hopefully we can, you know, do this again about any other topic. And what was, I want to, before I forget, what was the book that you said? Denial of Death or something? I want to. I'm writing. Yeah. I'm writing that down because that's not interesting. I think the Bible gives God a bad reputation. And yes, I agree. If God is real and exists, it's not how we see in the Bible. But what I think the Bible is useful for is it's a mirror to our souls. Right. If you read the Bible and you have hate in your heart, you're going to read all the hate stuff and go for it. If you read the Bible and you have love in your heart, you're going to follow Jesus. You're going to be a Jesus follower. If you have hate, you're going to be an Old Testament follower. You know, and that's kind of where I kind of break it apart where I'm like, you know, to me, there are, you know, followers of Jesus Christ and then there are Christians in my opinion. That's kind of how I categorize them. And I think the, the, the true people that are following Jesus are beautiful people, beautiful human beings, beautiful, you know, I think getting the right message from that book and then relaying it out to the world in a beautiful way. And, and those are the people that I want to elevate as much as possible because like, I think people get it confused. Well, why are you bashing Christianity? And it's one of those things where it's like, I'm not trying to bash Christianity at all. I'm trying to expose the system that Christianity uses to oppress and hurt people. And that's not okay. And so that's my only goal here. It's not to, you know, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think you have like over three million followers on Instagram. Like that is such an amazing platform. And thank you for letting me, you know, come on and be a part of that because, you know, yes, we just have to keep spreading the message. I mean, it's what Jesus told us to do. Yeah. It's just for the good news. And the good news is that you're good friend. You're good. You're good. You don't need saving. You weren't broken to begin with. Yeah. Jesus thinks you're cool. You're cool like him. You're woke, you know, and like being that loving force in the world. You know, yeah, that's simple. It is. And I think that's, it brings you back to my point about when my mom got saved and, you know, and we, you know, I had my own children and I was like, you know, I will say you can take her to church. You can, whatever you want to do, you're the grandma. That's fine. I said, but I will draw a boundary at you telling her that she's in need of salvation and that she is born a sinner. Um, and I, and I was very clear on it and she respected it. And I said, I'm just letting you know, because that's not, I will not, that's not going to be taught in my house to where innocent children are, are, are thought to be born a sinner in a need of salvation. Like it's not happening. Yeah. And that's what that's so, um, yeah, I, uh, we, we, we, we have a lot of work to do. Obviously I feel like in this realm, but we're starting in, I just want to say how much I appreciate your platform. I appreciate the message that you're spreading. I would love, um, to, uh, you know, maybe if there, there's a way that I can get a link to the, any of your retreats. I think there's so many women that actually DM me all the time that are in situations where I think a retreat like yours would really help them. Uh, and anyone listening, hope of Holly, where can they find you? Instagram, Facebook, what, what, what, what, what, where can they, where can they find you on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook and YouTube. And they can just Google hope with Holly and I come up right away. Um, I also, I work with this other lady that it does somatic, um, breathwork, Reiki lots because I'm, I talk, I do more of the teaching of nervous system, healing and regulations and stuff. And she does, so I'm more of the brain and she's more of the body. So we worked together and we created a company called trauma queen. Hmm. Okay. Okay. We became the queen of our trauma. And, um, and so we worked together. So I teach women how to change their views on things. And then she helps integrate it into their body and learn how to feel safe in their body again, especially what breathwork is. Woo. I went to a retreat in Arizona and I was like, uh, this is a super power medicine. Why is it not anybody, why is it not everybody doing this? Like it's amazing. Like mind blowing actually. Absolutely. That, and I do that all throughout the day when I, you know, can't smoke. Um, so it helps me so much. Just, I can feel my nervous system vibrating inside of me and just getting air and breath to it and putting focus on it. It's a superpower. Really, I believe it is. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. Listen, I, I could talk to you for hours. I got, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna shut it down, but listen, I would love to do a part two. I would love to have you on again with my wife, uh, when she's available. I think that'd be really great. Um, to kind of have that conversation too. Um, so I just, thank you so much for, for taking the time to do this. Um, I appreciate it so much. With people younger than me being so far ahead of me, you know, and like, I'm just so happy that religion is dying. Yeah. You know, and spirituality is rising and it's not dying. And that's really where that, that's the, let's just, I just wonder, I want the breaking point to happen sooner than rather than later, but working on it. Yeah. But thank you as well. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Uh, everyone listening. Thank you so much for, for joining me on another podcast of Kate and Ty break it down. Um, hope of Holly go forward. Um, and, uh, we will talk to you guys next week. Thank you so much. Pineapple Express, the entire Star Trek film franchise and gladiator and TV shows like survivor, SpongeBob squarepants, the fairly odd parents and ghosts Pluto TV is always free. Pluto TV stream now, pay never. It's Kail Lowry. Join me for barely famous. You might think you know me, but trust me, you don't know this version of me. This is where I say what everyone is too scared to ask and ask the questions that nobody wants to answer. I'm talking exes, unexpected guests, viral chaos, messy relationships, really just all of it. Nothing is off limits. Nothing is off the record. And yeah, things can get a little unhinged. It's real. It's raw. And it's probably going to make you gasp at least once. So follow rate and review barely famous wherever you get your podcasts.