EP: 412 The Kingdom Manifesto with Brad Gray and Joel Edwards

And so when Jesus says, pray, you know, our Father in the heavens, the one you rule and reign on, how you are holy, your kingdom come and you will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Jesus is talking about how are you partnering with God to see the goodness and power of heaven to take up residence here. And this was like for me the moment where everything like, because Jesus didn't come just to take us from here to go there. Right, there's no escapism. Everything he's talking about is how do you get the goodness and power of heaven to take up residence here. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. The Smithsonian, and if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere, was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right because if one person's right to bust the paradigm, it all goes back to the fallen cherub. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Hermon event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. What if the prayer you've known, Luke, for a lifetime holds the key to living a life of abundance and purpose. We've got director Joel Edwards, an author of the book, Bringing Heaven Here, Brad Gray, in the studio in the blurry basement. Welcome gentlemen to come down here. We're talking about the Lord's Prayer today and all things supernatural. We're talking to NT right yesterday about Bringing Heaven Here and we're going to keep that conversation going today. So we're excited. I don't know when those episodes are coming out, but we're in that vein with you guys. So we'd love to hop into the story. You made a film and the film is called, film is called the Lord's Prayer. Okay. Yeah. And then this is the book, yeah, Brad, you and Brad, two brads. This is like, two brads. Yeah, the two brads. You could have got a third Brad, you know, and it could have, it just could have been three. That sounds like a great podcast. Three brads. Yeah. Now this is especially fun for me because Brad, you, you are a teaching pastor at the church that I go to church of the city here in Franklin. And we know each other a little bit. And then Joel Edwards, one of my best friends in the world, filmmaker, Evolve Studios. And I got, it was really fun for me because I had sort of the inside track on, as you guys were out shooting the film, you know, Joel was sending, you're getting picked up updates and videos and sending the iron down. The iron dome. Yeah, it was crazy. But how do you make a film about the Lord's Prayer? A very long journey. Yeah. Very, very long journey. Six years in the making. This thing took six years. Wow. Where do you start? You start with, hopefully, a really good idea. Yeah. That was kind of the, the impetus behind this was for me growing up in the church and actually having been a pastor for a number of years. This was about seven years ago for me. I was reading the Lord's Prayer and it starts before Jesus even gives the prayer. It says, this then is how you should pray. And I just had this moment reading it going, oh, I think you actually meant that. Yeah. You know, and it was, that's pretty clear. It's pretty clear. And yet, for most people, if they're familiar with the Lord's Prayer, which most people are familiar, it's so familiar that it became unfamiliar. And that was true for me, you know, and so really just kind of started an internal journey to understanding the prayer. And once I just saw how much it transformed my own journey and how I prayed, then when we started coming together, working on an idea for initially a global television series that then went into a film and the television series will come out in a few months, everything around the Lord's Prayer just got unlocked. And we just said, let's, let's find a way to really give people a cinematic immersive journey. That's a lot of content. So you start with the first two, our father. That's right. Is it start there? That's the first part of the film. That's a loaded statement. That's episode one. It's just our father. It is. It's just those two. To be a loaded statement for a lot of Christians. That's right. You know, like, and it gets into the Trinity and all the talks that we have a lot on our show. So. And I was saying, we talked pre, you know, pre-roll, pre-show about this guy. I'm really excited because I think one thing we haven't done explicitly on the show is really talk about prayer. And this is the way that we're told, Jesus told us how to pray. And I think this is great context because a lot of times when we have conversations on the show, especially with folks that are, we've had a number of conversations about psychedelics and DMT. It doesn't matter if it's that or astrology or New Age things. There's all these avenues by which folks connect with the super, the spiritual realm or the supernatural world, right? However you want to sort of semantically qualify that. And the Bible tells us not to do those things. A lot of those things, whether it be like crazy things like necromancy or sorcery, but also like not do astrology. And so people that are having these experiences, now modern experiences, whether it be Joe Rogan talking about DMT or psychedelics or folks that are really what we've talked about, hopping the fence explicitly. The Bible gives us a way to connect with God. It's through prayer and supplication, fasting, right? These ways that are maybe much less flashy and. Yeah. There's a lot of humility in the Lord's. Exactly. So I'm excited to get into this and just really talk about, Jesus tells us this is how to pray. This is our way to connect with God. He's given us, right? We are past the boomim and the thumim and the things of the Old Testament where God had given ways for the priests and for his chosen leader to connect with him. And through the work of Jesus, Jesus says this is how we pray. And you kind of, Brad, led us off with like, you know, I read it and realized that we've whitewashed this or it's become so familiar, it's unfamiliar. So where do we start with the Lord's prayer? And then what Jesus is telling us, this is how you connect. This is how you pray. Yeah. What does that begin? And then I would, then I would love to get into the film. We can talk about some of the blurry things that happened out in Israel, but I think this is a topic I would love to dive into. As we really talk to our listeners and move into our own hearts about how we connect with God in this way. Because prayer is a weird thing, right? I mean, it is a weird thing. It's like, we pray a lot, people pray 10 years, simply 20 years for something and maybe don't get an answer. And then some people pray and they get an immediate answer. And it's just, there's not a formula it seems, but then we're a given one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think one of the first places to start with the Lord's prayer, even before you get into the actual words of the Lord's prayer is what was the Lord's prayer for Jesus. You know, it wasn't just a prayer that Jesus was teaching people to pray. It was actually the prayer that he was living out in his own life. And I think that was one of the big reveals for me when I did my initial study seven years ago, really a deep, deep dive into this. It was like, oh my goodness, like this is the essence of everything Jesus was about. And actually, when you look at the entire biblical narrative, 66 books, 1189 chapters, if you want the greatest distillation anywhere in scripture for understanding who God is, why Jesus came, and what our purpose is here on earth as human beings, it's actually in the Lord's prayer. And so when you begin to realize this is, this is a blueprint for daily living and Jesus was living it out and he's teaching others to do it as well, because Jesus has a mission. He's got a mission and he's not just looking for people to help them clean up their lives. He's actually looking for partners to join him in this massive redemptive movement that he is taking to a whole new level when he enters into human existence. And the way in which he wanted his followers to be reminded of the mission every day was actually praying the Lord's prayer. In fact, one of the fascinating things is that we have an early document. It's called the diddike, which is an early discipleship training manual that dates to either the late 1st century AD, which is concurrent with the New Testament or early 2nd century AD. And it's the only place that we have around the same time period where we have the entire Lord's prayer listed in this discipleship training manual, first time outside of the Bible that we have it in evidence. And it finishes with, and you shall pray this way three times a day. So this early church community that is using this as a discipleship training manual, and the Lord's prayer is just one of many things, this was a thing that they anchored themselves around three times a day to be reminded all throughout the day. This is what we are here to do. Do you feel like people think it gets repetitive or it gets... Rope. Religious, yeah. Yeah, totally. And so they don't do it? I think in many cases, people have said it so much that, yeah, they have no idea what they're saying anymore. Some people do it out of habit. I mean, I've got a number of buddies you probably do as well, where before I've got a number of friends in the NFL and they all tell me, every team, we say the Lord's prayer before we go out onto the field. And they have no... And one of my buddies who's been part of this project, he was like, I can't wait for all my teammates to actually know what they've been praying for so long. And for me, it was familiar enough that it just, it lost any kind of sense of meaning that I didn't even engage with it. I mean, when I realized, I was like, oh my, this is something Jesus gave us. I hadn't even been doing it in my own life. And I'd been a pastor for more than a decade, leading biblical study hiking trips for 15 years now. And I'm like, I wasn't even doing it. And so this has been part of the fun of working with Joel and our teams on this is to take something that's familiar and just show people how unbelievable it is, how deep the rabbit hole goes with every single phrase. But more than that, not just so that people are excited about it, they're actually living it out. And it becomes that daily blueprint through which you recognize this is what I'm supposed to do on a daily basis. So let's do that. Can we unwind it a little bit? Can we sort of un... Yeah, can we break down the verse and go through it? Yeah. You know, we hear a lot of the same stories over the years on the podcast, and sometimes you put the pieces together. And as Christians, sometimes we hear the crucifixion story, and we don't hear from a fresh perspective. But the cross is one of those stories that if you could hear it again for the first time, maybe it can move you in a different way. And that's why if the tree could speak, it's such a fascinating idea. It's the new book from Tim's Evo. And it's a story perspective of the cross and the crucifixion and the perspective. What if the wood itself could talk and tell the story? It's very poetic. It's got great illustrated narrative. I read it with my kids, and my oldest son was asking me a bunch of questions about it. So it's really near and dear to my heart. It's not just something that we're just saying on the podcast. Yeah, it really makes you slow down and feel the weight of what Jesus did. And as we walk through the season of celebrating his resurrection, this is something I think that will stick with you long after you put it down. You want to pick it up. Maybe you make this a tradition every Easter season to reread the story. As you said before, it's amazingly illustrated. It's got stunning graphics in it that really catch people, kids and adults of all ages. I love the fresh perspective. Our friend Tim Tebow did an amazing job putting this together. This is something I know our family is going to be keeping out and putting out every year to remind ourselves of the work of Christ. And just looked at from a new perspective. So you can join us, step inside the story, hear the witness and experience Easter like never before. Check out Tim Tebow's book, If the Tree Could Speak on Amazon. That's If the Tree Could Speak by Tim Tebow. Order your copy on Amazon today. Well, I think, you know, start with just what it is, right? I think for most of us, my experience with this, this is an old, crusty piece of scripture and teaching. It's like something that Jesus said. And it's not that, it face value, it doesn't feel like it's that impressive. You know, it's not some grand illustration or parable. It doesn't have all of the dynamic elements of stories or teachings that he normally gives us. It's just like, hey, this is how you should pray. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, real quick. But it's really fascinating. It's literally at the center of his teaching on the Sermon of the Mount. It's like the absolute nucleus of everything. And we talk about that in the film. And there's so much more there. And so the idea is, okay, have we overlooked this? Is this, is it really just a crusty piece of liturgy? Or is, is kind of maybe if once you get into it contextually, and you know, we say this all the time, a context is everything, you have to understand it. What did it mean to them? What does it mean to us? There's so much that goes into context. Once you start peeling it apart, it really becomes fascinating. And so the way that it's broken down is literally in the movements. Our father in the heavens, holy be your name. So this idea originally came as a television show, which is still going to happen. We just ended up making a pilot and then went on this journey and we ended up making a film. As Mark Burnett saw our pilot and was like, you, this should be a movie first. You need a little toe into this before you go seven episodes. So it's 82 minutes, but then the show is going to break down each one of those sections. So yeah, I mean, each section is so rich. Yeah. I think it's interesting about this too though, before we start with our father, is that the disciples have been with Jesus for quite some time now. And it's funny to me that at this point they're like, well, teach us how to pray. And I'm like, have you been with a guy for walking around Judea for how long? Yeah. You know, and which I always think is funny too. You're like, they don't, it feels like us. It feels like Israel all the time in the Old Testament and just like, yeah, we don't really know what we're doing here. We're just going to do our own thing. But like, you know, we're going to, or we're going to forget, you know. Yeah. Well, actually the interesting thing about that is that it's later in the gospel of Luke. It only shows up in Luke and Matthew. Luke is a little bit later. It's chapter 11. Great book. Matthew is in, you know, the Sermon on the Mount begins in Matthew chapter five and the sermon, it goes five, six and seven and the Lord's prayers is in chapter six. But what's fascinating about Luke's version is it, the preface to that is the disciples asking Jesus to pray, teach us to pray like John taught his disciples to pray. And one of the ways that we look at that and understand that is that we believe that every rabbi who was training disciples had a particular prayer that was unique to that particular group. So if you heard somebody praying a prayer, you'd be like, oh, you go with John the Baptist, you know, or you go with Jesus. So it's prayer was a significant part of their daily rhythms. They had multiple prayers. So it's not so much, are they teaching us how to pray? It's what is the prayer that is unique to us? Or what, what are you all about? Because it's in the very prayer that you have the nucleus as Joel's mentioning of everything Jesus was about. And one of the things that they understood is that anytime a rabbi gave you a prayer to pray, it wasn't just a prayer you prayed asking God to fulfill it. It was a prayer that you knew you had a part to play in making it a reality. So you're both asking God as well as going, in what role do I get to play in making this thing a reality? Because they always understood prayer as participatory, not just petition. So interesting to sit in our conversation with, with NT Wright, we had, I can't help but think like his ineffusions and this is a bit of an aside, but he was talking about the idea of his take on predestination, for example. And his take is it's vocational, not locational in a sense that like, that we are all given jobs within the body. And that's what Paul's talking about. And it's really interesting if that's what the context of prayer is that we're not only asking God for things, but also asking for our assignments, maybe you're right, or our participation. And that's what Paul's echoing then later in the letters is saying, you've been chosen for these jobs for this thing. He's got to come around and continue to try to explain to people because I think NT kind of put us on our minds that there's like a preloaded thought of what's going to happen when Jesus rolls on the scene. First it was, is this actually the guy that's supposed to come here? So everyone brings all this baggage emotionally into the, into the moment. And then obviously Jesus teaches them, they're kind of getting it. And then Paul has to come back and be like, wait, let's break this down again. And I think that humans are real hardheaded and it takes a long time of hearing the same things break. Okay, I get it. Maybe I'm slowly getting and we slowly change over time, but let's break down the verse kind of phrase by phrase and sort of what our listeners and me particularly us, you know, Protestant people who haven't heard it. Here's the thing too is this is, you know, as Joel mentioned, everything that we're doing with this is about context and context is everything. And yet the vast majority of people have never been taught how to think about the Bible in its comprehensive context, history, geography, the cultural backgrounds, language, literary design, the visual settings. And that's really where the prayer unlocks for all of us, you know, whether it's been something that people have said or, you know, has been part of their rhythm or it's not been part of the rhythm. But yeah, let's take our father from them because you made a comment. It's like, okay, that almost, it's almost kind of like you're almost hitting a wall for some people, just even with the very beginning. And this is where the context again is absolutely everything and unlocks. And I love that you said that because it's something that we've kind of banged the drum on the show is we had Dr. Michael Heiser on and Heiser. The thing that stuck with me is he said the Bible was written for you, but not to you, right? His whole expose on everything was that this is written to an ancient Near Eastern culture that had this foundation of cultural knowledge. And they had, they understood little stories. We talk about Genesis 6 and things like that, and it's only four verses, but, you know, they knew the context and the story to that. They didn't need to be explained. And I think we forget that often in the West, especially we read it, read ourselves into the Bible, and then we read it as 21st century Westerners instead of like, hey, this had a lot of nuance and cultural context that we miss because we aren't first century Judeans, right? So yeah, what do you think our father, what do you think about? Yeah, and this exactly we just said, it's what did they hear? Not what are we hearing first? And that's usually where the first hurdle comes is that, you know, when Jesus is teaching them how to pray, if you're going to enter into the vulnerable state of prayer, it's who are you praying to? And how do you think about the one that you are praying to? And when Jesus starts off and says, you know, you begin with our father, one of the big hurdles that a lot of people have is they are immediately thinking about God in relationship to their earthly father. What's the relationship I have with my dad? And if you don't have a great relationship, immediately you're already starting to feel the tension around the prayer. And, but here's the great thing is that God never sought to be defined through the experience you've had with your earthly father. And for those initial listeners on that hillside 2000 years ago, when they heard our father, they would have not first and foremost thought about the relationship to their dad, they would be immediately going through their scripture soaked minds to go, where does this first show up in scripture? And how does that help us understand who God is? And this is the thing about what we do in the film is immediately we're in Egypt, because for them, when they're thinking of our father, the first place that God identifies himself as a father, the first time father shows up in scripture is in the Exodus story when the Israelites are making mud bricks in Pharaoh's kingdom. And God shows up to Moses in a burning bush, has this conversation says, I want you to go back and tell Pharaoh that Israel is my firstborn son, and I'm telling you, let my son go, which is God showing up as a father. So the first thought that goes through a first century audience's mind is, oh, this is a God who is aware of our circumstances. This is a God who is who is listening to the cry of his people. This is a God who makes promises and then fulfills them. And as he did in the Exodus story, and then it just runs through, it's not a huge theme, but it's a threaded theme that shows up in multiple places throughout the Old Testament or the Hebrew scriptures, that for them they're realizing, oh, God is like the perfect parent that knows what we need. And when we come to God in prayer, we're coming to a compassionate, aware God who is interested in being in relationship to us, just like a familial relationship, which is always the most intimate kind of relationship to have. I think it's interesting, he says, our father. The plural? Yeah. It's communal. Yeah, it is. The whole prayer is in the communal, by the way. Well, I think that there's a lot of debate about speaking of hyzer, like the two powers in heaven and this whole idea that there is a relationship, and that at the time, this is the division between Christians and Jews. They don't believe that there's a relationship there, or Jesus isn't what they thought he was going to be, but it's interesting that the first thing he says is, my dad. Right? And I think that for whatever reason, over the church history, we've had a lot of debates about what that is, but I think it's a relationship that he's talking to. And I think Jesus and his father are there a lot in the Old Testament, and we've talked about, in what context is the angel of the Lord usually there? Sure. Yeah, yeah. There's this relationship going on. I think it's like, yeah, we can think about our own father immediately, but I wonder if they didn't fully understand the relationship between God the Father and the Son. Do you think that's a part of it? They had to learn that as they went. Where does Bigfoot get all this fiber? He sure does look great. He's eaten a lot of roughage out there. Yeah. Eating pine needles. How do we get that fiber, Luke? Well, we don't eat pine needles or turn trees upside down. You could try that, but what we found for us here is Mementis Fiber Plus has really been a solution. I've got some cinnamon flavor fiber I put into my protein shake in the morning, and Mementis Fiber Plus addresses one of the most overlooked foundations of long-term performance. That's our gut. We're actually talking about really, really working on your digestion and your health. A lot of that starts in the gut is what we're finding out, and fiber is a way to really drive gut health, impact nutrient absorption, give yourself energy, recovery, focus, mood, and overall performance, and Mementis Fiber Plus addresses that directly. Mementis is awesome. We believe in their company. 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Head to livemomentis.com and use promo code blurry for up to 35% off your first order. That's livemomentis.com. Promo code blurry. This is one of the challenges that we have with the Bible, is we come to the Bible as informed readers. We know where the story is going. It's hard to slow the story down long enough to put ourselves in their sandals and to really understand, I mean, even just think about the very first thing that Jesus proclaims. He says, repent for the kingdom of heaven has come near, which the kingdom of heaven is the nucleus of the entire prayer. But he starts with the word repent and we just think, oh, that's kind of a weird way to start. But the word that is actually used, the word repent there, means to change your mind. So he's starting off and saying, you have an idea of how you think this whole thing is going to get rolled out. And I'm telling you from the get go, you're going to have to change your mind. Right? And so this is why he's constantly having to tell stories. The kingdom of heaven is like this, the kingdom of heaven is like that. And he's telling these stories about it. You think it's this way, it's actually this. Yeah, because they're waiting for a conquering, conquering the sky, to bring the sword, to politically liberate. Which is the reason why a lot of, they don't accept Christ as the Messiah still to this day. Right. Just a gap in expectations. Yeah, they're waiting for something else. That's interesting because the repent idea is that you have to change your mind about this. This is not the way it's... Yeah, because it is, you have to kind of change your mind. And part of repentance means to return to the path. I mean, if you go back to the Hebrew etymology of this, the idea is that there's two paths in life. There's God's path and there's every other path. And when you stray off God's path, repentance means you're returning to the path. You're returning to the way in which you're called to walk in the world. But the thing that you just mentioned too, that's super interesting is that because they were expecting a messianic figure who was connected back to Moses, which is, they're looking for a new Exodus, they're looking for a second Moses to lead a new Exodus. And they have all of these expectations and anticipations. And it was through Moses that God first identified himself as a father. And so the fact that Jesus is beginning a prayer and saying, pray to our Father to use that language of Father is like, okay, redemption is on its way. And this is not actually something we give... For liberation. Yeah, liberation. We don't actually talk about this in the film, but this is in our first episode, is that it's not just what he's saying, it's on whose lips he's saying this. Because for the people to hear like our Father goes back to the Exodus story, and that's what they're longing for. Every year they're coming together during the Passover season to remember how God rescued and redeemed them from their slavery in Egypt. And now the Romans are over them. So it's just been replaced. It went from the Egyptians to the Assyrians to the Babylonians to the Persians to the Greeks. They had a little reprieve during the Maccabean revolt, and the Romans come in and now they're anticipating this again. And what they don't realize is that Jesus' mission isn't to conquer Rome, it's to defeat sin, death, and the devil. And that's something that's... Yeah, we look at it as a bigger test. This is why we had to make a movie and an episodic series and write a book. Human beings, since the dawn of time, have had more of an economic and political liberation in mind when connecting with God. We're going to politically take over. We're going to economically take over. And there's this four-dimensional kind of war going on outside of it. Jesus also, one of the last things he says is, Father, forgive them. And then at his baptism, this is my son. There's this clear language that's... Is that being missed by a lot of people in this day and age? Well, and this is its own kind of can of worms, but one of the most... Because I think it's just heavy. Yeah, well, I think one of the things that is also just fascinating when you get into this kind of discussion is that one of the most prolific passages that people had in mind with the coming of the Messiah is actually from Psalm chapter 2. And Psalm chapter 2 has this passage in here where it's talking about the coming Messiah and the language is this, because we immediately think it's divine, but it says this, Psalm chapter 2, verse 7, it says, actually, in verse 6, I've installed my King on Zion, my holy mountain. I will proclaim the Lord's decree. He said to me, You are my son. Today I have become your father. So this is actually, when you talked about being a son of someone in the ancient world, it was, I've come in the authority of my father. So even at the baptism, when God says, this is my son, whom I love with him, I'm well pleased, he's actually quoting three different passages from the three parts of the Old Testament. And chief among them is Psalm 2.7, but for them, it wasn't the expectation that the coming Messiah was going to be divine. That was like, they're having to try to wrestle with the implications of, you're not just the coming Messiah to inaugurate God's kingdom. It was the later understanding, oh my goodness, somehow you're connected in divinity? That was something that they had to flesh out and learn as they went. That wasn't something that they were expecting. It was like, they're trying to do the lesser Yahweh is the way that the Second Temple folks were trying to sort of figure this out, right? There's this other angel of the Lord, there's this other Yahweh that's, anyway, they're wrestling with the whole thing. But even just saying the language of our Father immediately just brings a whole host of understandings. We were having a discussion in a previous episode that our only begotten is inheritance language. We see that a lot where here's the inheritance of the Father to the Son throughout the Old Testament. So Jesus was like given. It's like Psalm 82. Yeah, given the inheritance, the nations of the Lord, given the power and authority. Only that means just one son with all of his dads. I don't know, but I can't understand it any other way. I've listened to my whole life, the church kind of explained this. It doesn't make any sense until you just think, this is a Father-Son relationship. That's the best way, literary, to understand. But we are afraid of that conversation for some reason. But here it is. And even sometimes Jesus says, not my will, but yours. What? Wait a minute. So there is a Father. They beat this drum forever. We spent about 15 minutes on the Father. We made two words into the phrase. We need to make a movie. We had to do a whole episode of just the first two words. But it's loaded. It is loaded. And I think the ancients and the moderns, we don't understand. Either we have dad baggage or we had expectations of what that looks like. But that's interesting. I didn't think that they didn't know that Jesus was going to be right alongside in terms of power and authority on earth given to him. Which is a real brain buster, the more that we read into the story. The thing is completely loaded for me as a professional storyteller, like day job guy. This is one of those, once you see it, you can't unsee it. Kind of pieces of just magnificent scripture that's sitting right there that you just kind of, at least die, certainly would just graze over. Lord's Prayer, like we were talking about, usually like something grandpa says at Thanksgiving, you're like whatever. This is just old tradition. Or it's like the Catholics, they repeat this a lot, just like the Rosary, like the Hail Mary. So our Father who is in heaven, art in heaven, every one of King James, baby, we could do that. How will be that name? Let's do the who are in heaven, who is in heaven. It's actually literally recorded in the Greek, which is the language of the New Testament, in the heavens. Plural. It's plural. Which is interesting because later in the prayer on earth as it is in heaven is singular. So when you actually realize that the first thing that is being said is in the heavens, it's plural, the first question you do is you go, what's going on with that? And it's just ancient cosmology. How did the ancient people understand the world? Because they didn't have the Hubble telescope. They didn't have the James Webb telescope. They didn't go to space and look back and see how everything was. So they had a very honest reality, which was I got the ground under my feet and I look up into the heavens. And they actually saw the world up and they broke it down into different tiers. So that was just kind of their view of having language for what they were seeing. And so you actually have a reference to Paul in Corinthians talking about, oh, I know a man who was taken up to the third heaven. In a Jewish literature of the time, there are three, five, seven, 10, or even more levels of the heavens. But when Paul drops this reference in 2 Corinthians, he doesn't explain it, which seems obvious enough to him that he doesn't have to explain it. And you go, what are the three, like three heavens seems to be the general understanding, which was level one was just for them is where the birds are. And that's where the clouds are. They're all just right here. And then they're like, okay, we see all the sun, the moon, the stars, and they seem to be attached to this dome. So they don't know how close our closest star is, which is actually insanely far away when you get into astronomy and all that. So they saw the level two and then the third level. They didn't have a word for universe, for example. No, I mean, they just, they just, Maybe they did, but it, they did, but it was, it was more of the word that they actually have in the Hebrew scriptures is Shemime, which is heaven's plural. Like it's always in the plural. Is that, is that, is that including the second and third heavens? Like the, the God is, because I know that we've talked about sort of the ancient cosmology, which is like second heavens is kind of, we're all the spiritual, all the supernatural beings and the sun and the moon and the stars, they all, because the stars themselves are actually in some of the ancient or angels or beings, right? And then the third heaven is where God resides, right? Exactly. So the third level is the throne room of God. That's where God rules and reigns on high. So to even just to say our father in the heavens was to be reminded of the fact that this is a God who sits above it all, which was a place of ruling authority. Over the years, we've gotten many strange emails from ranchers that their cows are disappearing. And there's one thing you don't want, Luke, is that's a mystery meat. You don't want to know, not know where your meat comes from. You don't want to know if it's just floating over here from another country. You don't want any of that. So that's why we, we talk about love. We are subscribers of good ranchers. Our friends at good ranchers have an amazing story. Ben started the company as a youth pastor and he's built this company really on American values. America turns 250 this year. 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That's code blurry for $25 off your first order just to try good ranchers out because they're that confident that you're going to love it. Good Ranchers.com American meat delivered. The other aspect that you see all throughout the scriptures is that God is not a distant God. He is constantly showing up to his people. He's moving through the heavens. And so when you put those together, you go, okay, so this is really cool. Ancient cosmology. This is how the Jewish people thought about God as father. What does that make any difference for us when we come to God in prayer? Because that's ultimately what we want to ask. What did it mean for them? And how does that help us today? Well, when you come to God in prayer and you begin with the phrase, our father, and you are reminded as you slow down and think, okay, this is the God who is aware of our circumstances. This is a God who makes promises and fulfills them. He can be trusted. This is the perfect parent who knows what we need. There's a compassion. There's an empathy. And there's a relational side. That's really warm and amazing. But can he actually do anything about my circumstances? The very next line answers, oh yeah, he is the cosmic creator that holds the whole universe into place. And what's more, he's not just a distant God. He's a present God. So it talks about his power and his presence within his fatherly or parental nature to want the best for us and for us to be in a relationship where we can trust God despite whatever circumstances we have. So when you just start off, you go, what kind of a God am I praying to? It's an all-knowing, all-aware, loving, compassionate, cosmic creator who is as close to me as the air that I breathe. So he's in all the heavens, right? He's all over. I think the presence he's here. His presence, yeah. Yeah, he's there, but he's also here. And we talk a little bit about that in the film. We have Dr. Gheon. He talks about quantum entanglement and just the idea of how they've been able to measure people connecting at a cellular level on different parts of the earth. And he's like, that's the God that we're praying to. So yeah, you get a big telescope. You're like, wow, it's light years, light years, light years, expanse, but it's also inside as well. It's close to complete. There's the outer verse, there's the universe and God's in all of it. So the prayer starts out very humble, you know, like, know your place in the universe and know who's over the universe. Know where he at. But he's also your dad. But he's also your dad. He's a family relationship, yeah. But I think you're struggling in the time with a lot of spiritual arrogance also. Like, we know the truth and we're waiting for it to show up. And it shows up and we're like, it's not here yet. It's not here yet. And it's like, no, it's here. It's right here. I actually am here. And I think that was just interesting to me that, you know, the Son of God is standing in front of these guys that spent their whole life studying the scriptures. And nothing, no quantum entanglement to the Son of God being in their presence. Talk about losing the plot. You know, like the guy you're waiting for is right here, the Son of the Most High. And you don't, there's nothing in your spirit that says, hey, this guy's different. You know, like you're completely on the road to the mass they did in our hearts burning with us. Yeah, they burned the burn. And again, it's just part of it's just the broken expectation. Yeah, it's classic, classic image bearer move. Yeah. We're good at it. But I think we, you know, we don't like to humbly approach sort of anything as humans. We kind of like to come at it with like, you know, I got this, I got what it takes. Or I want to be in control. Yeah. But then that's the thing that's so, so cool about, and we'll get down wherever you want to go with this. But speaking of the fact of NT Wright, he talks about even when we get to the part of just daily bread, not to bypass the rest of it, but he says, the problem when we pray for daily bread is that we get there too soon. For many people, when they do go to God in prayer, it's a laundry list of these are all the things that I need. And when you realize that the place where you ask for something is much later in the prayer, the whole beginning of the prayer is to frame what existence is supposed to look like so that you actually know what you should be praying for. Right. And so when you start off with our Father in the heavens, you're going very humbly, like I'm coming before the Creator of the universe who loves me as the perfect parent, who's as near to me as the air that I am breathing. And he's also powerful, but he's not distant. Because sometimes that's the issue is when people go, well, our Father, who are in heaven? Well, God is somewhere far away. He's watching us from a distance. Not he's in the midst of this conversation right now. It is interesting. The petitions come later in the prayer. The next line is, this holy is your name or halbi is your name. So it's like, you're here, you're above it all, and man, you're holy. So it's something I can't touch. Right? Yeah. But that's one of the questions that we also pose is, so God's name is supposed to be holy. Why does that matter? Like what? I don't want to be, you know, sacrilegious. What does it matter if God's name is holy? Right? Because we hear that halbi, that name is probably the most archaic kind of word in there. Like we don't use it. I like it. But if you hear it anew, like it brings, it's supposed to remind you how precious the name of God is. But even more than that, the word holy or halbi, is in Hebrew, the word kadosh, which means to be separate, to be distinct, to be other than. And all throughout scripture, God is saying, I am not like the other gods and goddesses. Right? Yeah. I am distinct and I am holy. But here's the thing that's so cool is that there's a two-sided aspect to holy be your name. On the one hand, what you're praying is, God, I want people to see you for who you truly are, that you are accurately represented. You know, so often God is misrepresented. But here's the thing that God did very tangibly in the Hebrew scriptures, the Old Testament, is that when he brought the Israelites out of Egypt and he brought them to Mount Sinai and he starts to give them his, we say, law, it's actually the word Torah, which means teachings, instructions, God's instructions for life. The whole thing at Sinai in Exodus 19 and 20 is actually a marriage ceremony. It parallels a marriage ceremony where God says, I am uniting with you as a people. I am giving you my teachings, my instructions, because here's the other big thing. I'm actually giving you my name. You are going to bear my name. And you even see this in the Ten Commandments, the commandment that says, you shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. We think of that in terms of, well, just don't use God's name inappropriately. Don't be throwing any GDs around. Don't be yelling, don't be yelling, haste this when you hit your toe. Well, and here's the thing is in the Hebrew, it literally reads, you shall not miscarry the name of the Lord your God. And God keeps reminding them, even with the Aaronic blessing, the Lord bless you and keep you, the Lord make his face that shine upon you, be gracious to you, the Lord turns face to you and give you his peace. The very next line, God says, in giving this instruction to Aaron and his sons to speak over the Israelites, he says, and in doing so, you will put my name on my people. It's like taking a bride, taking the last name. Yeah, exactly. Like Queen E taking Edwards. This is where context is just kind of like, it really is mind blowing. You really have to read it, understand it differently, then just open it up. I think in our, at least in the US, the way I grew up, it's like Bible roulette, open it up and read it. Okay, do this. Is that written for me? It's so different. And so that's what we're hoping to do. Yeah, it keeps opening up the song of Solomon. I don't know how this roulette keeps doing. Yeah, I keep getting there. It does. It's interesting. I mean, most of us fathers who have a moment with our children, it often feels kind of mind blowing when they look at you and they go, thank you for this, that, and the other. Yeah. You know what I mean? And you're kind of like, well, you kind of like caught off guard because you're so used to being in this, I'm just giving to this relationship here. And every once in a while, it's like, oh, there's some, there's some connection here. There's some feedback. Yeah. And a little bit of gratitude. There's a little way. Yeah, it does. I had a while, a moment with my youngest son, he thanked me for changing one of his last diapers. And I remember being dumbfounded because it was like, it's two and a half years old. And he goes, thank you, daddy, for taking care of me. And I thought, wow, this is my first kid. This is not how it's going to go. And it was a moment that I'll never forget because I was like, I don't know what happens in his mind, but he acknowledged what I was doing. And I never expected him. I thought, you're going to say that when you're 30, maybe one day. You were like, you get to do that for me in a few years. And it changed my life in a way of like, wow, this is really like, I can understand a little bit more when I read the Lord's Prayer now thinking, okay, I'm a father and I understand that connection. I understand that like longing and I understand that like, but also that's not the purpose. I didn't have kids to, you know, boost my ego. I wanted to learn about what it's like to love something with all my heart and not necessarily, it could hurt. He could hurt me, you know, and we have, I don't really know what, that's a whole podcast, but in this prayer, it sets it up with like, you kind of put yourself in this relationship. Like you see where he is, where you are, you're posturing your humility, but there's also family. There's an invitation, God is holy, but he's here. I think oftentimes we just roll in and be like, Hey, what am I getting? What's up? What do I want? You know, we know that doesn't work in relationships with females. You can't just be like, this is what I want. You know, have to kind of go through that you have to sort of introduce, you know, how's your day, what's going on, the whole things, but men, we can get very... That's five podcasts. Yeah, right. That's all. We can get very just right to the point. I want to come back for the song of Solomon. Yeah. Right. We can just go give us our bread and a lot of material for that. I mean, this in and of itself is like, it's like a closeness, but then it's also this reverence. Like, so yes, he's close in here. And yes, he's our dad, but also he's... He's holy. He's holy. He's not to be messed with. We've seen what he can kind of, you know... Well, and this is the thing, this is the part of the prayer where it starts to get into the participatory. Because when God unites with his people and says, you're going to bear my name, and what you do is going to be a message to the world of what I'm like, which is why God is giving all these instructions. He's basically saying, this is what I value. And this is what you are to value if you're going to be in relationship and represent me in the world. Well, when they didn't do that and they got exiled, what you see the prophets keep talking about is you profaned the name of the Lord by how you lived. And there was a point where God was like, you can't misrepresent me anymore. I need to let you know the severity of what you've done. And he puts them into exile. And he says there will come a time where I'm going to reinstate the holiness of my name because you have profaned it among the nations. So the idea... Boy, we butchered that. Well, and that's also the thing is you recognize, like, if you are a follower of Jesus, you are the message of Jesus to a watching world. The question is, are you representing him well? When you say, God, I want people to have an accurate representation of you, you represent God in what you do. About, I don't know, maybe a year and a half ago, my family and I were on vacation and we were at the beach and my kids were playing and they were like, we want something to drink. There you go. Kids asking for something. And so I go over to the tiki hut and I get to the tiki hut and I'm putting in the words for the coax and the lemon aids and all that kind of stuff. Cause I got four kids and don't know how I'm going to carry all this. And I turned to my left and there was a gal there who was in her twenties. She's on one of the, you know, one of the swings, little rope swings. And she's clearly had way too much to drink. She is just belting at the top of her lungs. She is being obnoxious. And it is like, you could tell she was completely trashed. And I looked and she had Yod He Vav He, God's intimate personal holy name tattooed on her arm in huge letters. And I remember going, walking away, going, yeah, what, what we do matters. We, we, we, like, she's literally bearing the name of God, you know, and, but we all bear the name of God. And what we do is an indication to others who God is and what he is like. And so there's that moment where there is that reverence for who God is. And then in the same moment you're going, Oh, and I represent that, that name in the world. That got to say on my jersey. That man of Shevitz can sneak up on him. One of the things that I learned in the storytelling process is bearing God's name is, is a reminder of the mission. Like there is a mission side of this. If you look at where Canaan is on the map, it's legitimately the center. Why would God give them that land? Why would he want him? Why would he want his firstborn son to bear his name geographically? Because everyone passes through it. It's literally the center. He wants to tell everyone else about his mission, about his name and how he is the way and he is the truth. So if you look at the trade routes, I mean, Israel, Canaan is literally the center. Everyone has to get through there. So stuff like that, you know, again, when you learn it in context, you're like, wow, I didn't, I didn't realize that it's important. He's trying and instructing us and wanting us to bear his name. What that means is to live like him, to follow him, to be all of the virtues. I mean, most of the, most of the, the Old Testament law and instruction is really like, here's how this practically works. You know, here's how you deal with your donkey running over your neighbors, you know, olive tree. Like here's how to do it practically because it all glorifies him. It all is his way. It's actually going to point people to him and keep people to him. So it's really a lot bigger than just, this is an awesome name. It's a whole life stuff. It's going to put him, yeah. So you're going to be an awesome God. You will be done on earth as in, is in heaven. You know, I think oftentimes we, we have discussions on the podcast about how earth mirrors heaven, not the other way around. We ripped off a lot of things from heaven. Angels interacted with us, gave us information, other things that we, the weirder parts of the Bible we talk about all the time. But I don't think we came up with a lot of these ideas originally. So there's, something we're doing down here is mirroring there. There's a will there as a will here, but they seem to be often very similar. You know, we talk a lot about how there's tables in heaven, they're having meals, they're hanging out. What happens in our minds to think, do you think ancients were having a hard time wrapping their mind around what goes on up there? What are they doing? Yeah. What does it mean your will? Aren't, aren't just like a thousand spirits just singing to you all day long? Is that all that's happening up there? Well, there's no, what kind of, when I got into recently was just that idea that the ancient paradigm was that heaven and earth were so intimately overlapping. So when Jesus saying your kingdom come, it will be done on earth as it is in heaven. How are we meant to read that in context? What are your thoughts on that, Brian? Yeah. And the unlock is the word kingdom, because that is, you know, most people when they think about why did Jesus come, right? The thought is Jesus came to die in order to save us from our sins in order that we could go to heaven after we die. That's part of it, but that's a very, very narrow understanding of what Jesus was doing. Jesus didn't come just to die. Jesus came to live. Jesus came to demonstrate in flesh and blood what God's will and way looks like being lived out here on earth. And 50 times in the gospel of Matthew alone, the kingdom is referenced. The kingdom of heaven is like this. Is like this. And so you go, what is the kingdom of heaven? Because when we think of kingdom of heaven, we think about something that's like way out there like city of God, right? Right. But it's also not just kingdom of heaven. It's also called kingdom of God. And so fantastic passage Psalm 115 verse 16 says, the highest heavens belong to the Lord, but the earth he has given to humankind. And what the writer is there is talking about realms and Dallas Willard and his brilliant book, Divine Conspiracy, defined realm or kingdom as the range of your effective will. Meaning if you have this range of effective will, for all intent and purposes, it's a kingdom like you have a kingdom, you have a kingdom, I have a kingdom, you have a kingdom, like it's a little K kingdom. We don't use this language very often. Like I was saying, my kingdom for this, you know, for a, right, exactly for a cold drink or whatever it is, you know, but the reason why the writer is saying the highest heavens, which is now going back to the cosmology belongs to the Lord, heaven or the highest heavens is a realm where things are as God intends them to be. God's will, God's way, it happens in heaven. The earth is different. Why? Genesis three, messed everything up. And so what's fascinating about when Adam and Eve take from the tree, sin, death, brokenness, pain, you could summarize it, chaos entered into the human order. God doesn't just scrap it all and say, well, I didn't work the way I thought, let's just start over. God goes, I'm going to put the whole thing back together. And when he chooses Abraham and his descendants to be the bearer of his blessing, that's supposed to go to all nations, they're struggling to live out that mission to the point that when Jesus shows up from within Israel to get right what has been made wrong, Jesus shows up on the scene and he says the kingdom of heaven is now like it's arriving. Like we use this language, the kingdom is already and but not yet. It's actually more biblical to say the kingdom is already with even more to come. And when Jesus shows up and he makes his proclamation, what we see is that that phrase kingdom of God or kingdom of heaven actually doesn't show up in the Old Testament, but the idea of the kingdom is all over the place. What happened was is after the events of the Old Testament concluded before the gospel events began, that inter-testamental period among the sages and rabbis, they solidified this language of kingdom of heaven or kingdom of God so that when Jesus shows up and uses the phrase, everybody knows what he's talking about. And what he is talking about is what they were anticipating is that all throughout the scriptures, God is talking about that there will come a time where he's going to act with power unprecedented since the fall in Genesis chapter three. And the language they ascribed to that was the kingdom of heaven, meaning the goodness and the power that is in heaven is going to start taking up residence on earth. And so when Jesus says, pray, you know, our Father in the heavens, the one you rule and reign on hot, you are holy, your kingdom come and you will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Jesus is talking about how are you partnering with God to see the goodness and power of heaven to take up residence here. And this was like for me the moment where everything, like, because Jesus didn't come just to take us from here to go there. Right, there's no escapism. Everything he's talking about is how do you get the goodness and power of heaven to take up residence here? So it's like, is it dominion versus saying like, you have dominion here? And it's saying that you're playing a part in, are you going to align your little K kingdom to the kingdom? So that not only when you're doing what God is asking you to do, you experience the goodness and restoration in your own life, but then you become a conduit through which God works through you to impact other people because you have a realm of influence. That's actually what I was going to use exactly. We expand the dominion of heaven in a sense. We've used this language before, like we are the regents, if you will, or the governors of this space. God gave it to Adam and by birthright it's for humans, right? Which is why we'll judge angels according to Paul's because this is not their place. The dominion belongs to us, but we can also, what we can give that dominion which God already has, but he can work through us to regain or reclaim. So when making a film, sometimes there's like a story within a story. Sometimes there's like an opening scene that is the whole movie and then you kind of see it. Oh, the end is the beginning. Yeah, you see it backwards. So obviously your filmmaker is the Lord's Prayer, like an encompassing film, like movie of all of it. Like when you pull out the data, it's like, well, that kind of started there and that kind of was Genesis language and it moves through. Or there are any other relationships, stories in the Old Testament, for example, that mirror the Lord's Prayer. Yeah, we see it all connected. Yeah, it's the whole story. Jesus' entire life is on the canvas of the Exodus story. Like that is the template, is it all goes back to Exodus. Now, brokenness, everything that Jesus came to redeem and restore goes all the way back to the very beginning. You know, pretty much everything in the Bible can be traced back to Genesis one, two, and three. It's all sitting there. But for Jesus, he's coming as a second Moses to lead a new Exodus. God first shows up as father in the Exodus story. Everything is about why does God rescue Israel in the first place? Is it just because they're enslaved? No, it's because God made a promise to Abraham all the way back in Genesis 12. I'm going to bless you and the whole world is going to be blessed through you. And when Israel's enslaved in Egypt, the plan can't do what the plan is designed to do. Right. God says, I've brought you out and I've brought you to myself. Like that's how Exodus 19, I carried you on eagles wings and I brought you to myself. And then he says, do you want to be in partnership with me? And their response is yes. And then God goes, then the whole restoration movement is underway. And that's what the whole Bible is about. You know, when Joel said earlier, the Lord's prayer, and this is something that Jonathan, Dr. Jonathan Pennington, who's on, who's in the film, just brilliant observation. He's like, the center of everything Jesus was doing is contained in the Sermon on the Mount. Like that is the kingdom manifesto. In the Sermon on the Mount, the center of the Sermon on the Mount is the Lord's prayer. The center of the Lord's prayer is kingdom come. So the kingdom part is the center of the center of the center. Whereas for us, we often think in terms of, okay, the best is at the end, right? We've got the end of the fireworks display. That's the end. Here's the crescendo we think in terms of a rise to a top. They did it in a way where it was actually, they're kind of doing this in a way where you're laying it out and you get to the middle and then you come back down. It's like a literary sandwich. What is in the middle? It's a chiasm. Exactly. Yeah. That's what the whole Lord's prayer is centered around because once you realize that you have been deployed by God to partner with Him, to see His will and His way advance in the world, then the rest of the prayer, these are the petitions I need in order to make this a reality. Because you just hit the culminating point of the entire prayer, which is the kingdom. And again, kingdom is referenced 50 times alone in the gospel of Matthew. We like to say for 2000 years, people have been teaching Jesus the problem is, is that His message hasn't always been included. So how would they have understood this quickly, do you think? How would they have understood on earth as in heaven? How would they have understood that? There's that whole sort of paradigm where God is far and He's away, but that wasn't their paradigm at all. No, no. And this is one of the things that was kind of a fallacy around the Lord's prayer is that a lot of people say, well, Jesus instituted a very personal way of engaging with God. If you actually go through Jewish prayers, it is very intimate, it is very personal. But the thing is, is that so cool about your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as is in heaven, is it comes on the heels of holy be your name. What are they all intimately aware about? We did not carry God's name well. We went into exile and now that we're in the land, but they still felt like that they were in exile. It was, we get to partner with God in such a way where God's goodness gets to flow through us as a community and that we have the ability to impact other people. So if you just tangibly say, so what's, how do we live that out? We all have influence. We all have resources. We all have gifts and talents. And the question becomes, is our waking moment when we get up in the morning, how do I advance my kingdom, my cause, what I want to have happen in the world? Or do we say, God, how do I take what you have given to me in order to use that in a way that your will in your way gets out there? And that's what you're praying about is, how am I going to live my life today that partners with the king of the universe who wants to work with me wherever he's placed us? This is the thing is, God wants people in all facets of society and all aspects of media and film and nonprofit and business and education and all of that. And that's how they would have understood it is we are collaborating with God to see his will and his way advance here and now and I get to be a part of it. I think the first time I thought about something like that, I was like, when I was a kid and we learned about the Underground Railroad and how like, they were all working together. You're a Tubman. So yeah, that's a great analogy. They're all working together. They all had their jobs during the day. But then at night, they're like doing God's work and rescuing people and somehow there's this network and they all have this quantum entanglement of some kind to send and help and it's like multiple things going on at once. Yeah, I have my house, but you can use my house and we can actually like... It's also a train station now. My house is also a train station. It stops here. Yeah. But you also realized everybody's working together for a singular mission. Yeah, exactly. And that's what this whole prayer is supposed to do, is to remind you that you're not alone. This whole prayer is in the plural. You're banding together to go, how do we understand who God is and what he wants in the world and then how do I enact that through what I have in front of me and what God has gifted me to do? It's crazy. I'm looking at this prayer here and I never really realized it is a chiosme. It's fascinating because it's like the way that it goes, it's like you're our father, you're holy, you're kingdom and then it's give us, forgive us, lead us, deliver us. Yours is the kingdom. You're powerful and holy. And just a reminder. Oh yeah, this is what we're praying to. It reads... And we've talked about chiosmes and scripture, which is really, really interesting when it gets to prophecy and things like that, but interesting that he even... This is the way he presents it as well, like Jesus is saying this is... Because it's repetitive in a way. It goes, it works to the middle, then it works back out in the same way. So after this, after heaven, we give us the stay our daily bread, forgive us our debts, as we are forgiven our debtors. So after you've acknowledged who God is and he's a father, he's holy, God, your will, right? Your kingdom, your will. Now I got a little couple things I need, right? Right. Which is... So where does this go and how do we read through the rest of the prayer? Obviously, like we need something, we owe something. Yeah. You know. Well, if you go back to the quote from N.T. Wright, the problem with asking for bread as we get there too soon. Yeah. Now that you understand who you're praying to, you're reminded of that, right? You're reminded that you get a part to play. You're called to represent God's name well. God has given you gifts and abilities and opportunities, steward them well to advance what he wants in the world. And you submitted your will to your like... Yeah. Yours, right? It's... Maybe I need something to... Yeah. Well, and here's the great part about daily bread is that that is something that is used in scripture to just denote what do you need. It's a manna. You know, and it does. The first thing that we thought of is God providing daily bread for 40 years in the desert, in the midst of their vulnerable circumstances, as he was training them to be his message bearers in the world. Because as Joel mentioned, they're in the desert for 40 years. And the reason why they're in the desert for 40 years is that, you know, you can take the people out of Egypt, but it's going to take a long time to get Egypt out of the people. And God is training them so that when he does put them in to the most highly trafficked area of the entire ancient world, as Joel mentioned, like everybody's going through there, it's a water bridge connecting the Red Sea to the Med Sea. It's a land bridge connecting Egypt to everywhere else in the world. You know, that's in that part of the Eastern Mediterranean world. God's going to put them in the most highly trafficked area because he wants, as the nations are coming through to see how you run your business, how you treat one another, what do you do with the poor and needy among you? That's going to point people to go, they're different. Why do you do it that way? Do you feel like this prayer is a daily Exodus? Like, we all think, oh, well, now I wouldn't have done that that way. I wouldn't have been Peter into 9 Christ. But it's almost like before you read the prayer, you're in the desert and you're training yourself to come out of the desert every day. Or you just put yourself back into slavery because of what you did that day. Right? So you're sort of setting yourself, you're asking God to set you free. You're recalibrating. There's some real power in liturgy. And there's a reason why the Orthodox Church is the largest growing church right now. You know, as we go into 2026. It's a rhythm. I mean, there's just, there's something to it. And I think throughout this process for me, I kind of relearned that and learned to re-appreciate it again. That there is something about muscle memory and just repetition. It's kind of where Brad went to the top, right? That we find these ancient manuscripts from maybe the very end of the first, second century. And it's like, do this three times a day. Right. Like, so do this. I mean, I think we sort of, man, I don't know how we separate ourselves in some ways in a weird way, where this is like, this is the prayer that Jesus, the incarnate creator of the universe, tells us how you should pray. And we sort of just are like, that's cool. Right. I mean, I still going to be like, hey, God, I need this. You know, we kind of do our own lazy human thing, which is what the Bible is about anyway. Well, I think we're always, we're always think we've gotten, we've gotten the degree, we've graduated. And it's like, nah, school's just starting. I think that's the prayer to me. It's like, school's just starting. Right. Yesterday you got your degree, but today you're starting all over again. You're a freshman. Well, you even go back to Acts chapter one, Jesus has died. He's been resurrected and he's back with his disciples. And it says for 40 days, he's with them and he's teaching them about the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of God. It's like, okay, boy, summer school. Like I was with you for three years and you still didn't understand what this was all about. So summer school, you know. And I think this is a big thing that, you know, Joel and I just had the, we just kept talking about was the Lord's prayer is probably the most powerful thing Jesus ever gave us. That's the most underutilized of anything he ever gave. Yeah. Because we don't recognize the power that's behind it. And this is one of the things that, you know, for me, seven years ago, when I was on this journey is that I just was like, I am not going to go another day of my life not saying this prayer. And that was really the goal. And we set this out to do the film, the television series to do the book is that we wanted people to engage it and be so compelled to go, I can't afford to not go another day of my life not saying this prayer, because it's the very, it's the, it's the North Star, it's the anchor, it's the blueprint, it's the thing that recalibrates you to what you're supposed to do. And even the idea of daily bread. So often, if you just kind of like write down, irrespective of saying the rest of the prayer, whatever, what you're normally asking for, you're supposed to pause at daily bread and go, am I asking for something that's actually going to help me with the mission? Or could this actually detract me from the mission? And if God actually gave this to me, I might think God's not being good, but God's actually keeping me from the very things that's going to derail the very thing he wants to do in my life. That's good. And so it's, it's a, what do I need for the mission at hand? Now that I am reminded it's all about kingdom come, God's rule and reign advancing here on earth, pushing out the chaos. Now when I'm asking for something, I'm asking for the very things that God, I need this to do the mission that you have commissioned me to do. That's what I need to be recalibrated to. I love, I love there's so much space in the prayer too to like dream a little bit too. Yeah. And I think it's interesting as kids, you know, like speaking of school, we all said the pledge of the legions, you know, don't do it anymore. At Christian school, we didn't do the Lord's prayer. I can't believe we had more reverence for this, the pledge of the legions. Did you have the Christian flag though? Yeah, we did. Oh yeah. But that's a relic. But, but, but we should have been doing the Lord's, I didn't build in my school. Yeah. But I think it was a Catholic thing. So we didn't do it, right? Which is sad. It's definitely not a Catholic thing. It's a Jesus thing. Well, yeah. But I mean, yeah, but that's how you Catholic school thing. Yeah. I think we were at Baptist running our, our schools. So they were not going to do anything like that. But you know what I mean? Like it was a board of, of those kinds of dudes. And I just think it's sad because you grew up and you missed an opportunity to really think about the Lord's prayer. Because I think obviously, once Jesus finally goes, then they're starting to put it together. And I think as adults, we think about, oh yeah, I remember that as a kid, that happened. That makes sense now. And it's like you plan a seed, sometimes it takes 40 years to grow. And I think that if they planted this seed in a lot of our children, it would grow one day when they needed it. When they actually like, oh man, life is, life is hard. Life is terrible. I have this horrible attitude. I can't see anything. I'm not grateful for anything. I don't know what to do. And then he could think back to, I remember when they see the Lord's prayer with dad. And now I'm starting to see that that could change my perspective. But we didn't grow up with it. So we don't. Well, it's funny. I think that that is a symptom of so many different pieces of our faith and our practice and how we actually walk this out daily. I think it's with the Lord's prayer. It's with a lot of liturgy in general. And again, there's a reason why the Orthodox traditions are just growing right now. They're exploding. And I think that there's this muscle memory. We talk about 10,000 hours at now with all the distractions and social media and everything now needs to be 20,000 hours. There's something about like repetition, repetition, just writing it on your heart. It is literally writing it on your heart. And I think, you know, this project took so long to get done. It's just, it's interesting timing. You know, we talk about God's timing. This is interesting timing that this thing is now releasing. It's available now. We've got the show coming out next year. And people are so hungry for it. We had a premiere. 1600 people came to the premiere on less than three weeks notice. Like that's crazy. I did not come. There is a, yeah, Luke didn't. I was invited. It was a tough season. There were, there were, there was so, there's so much hunger for the audience. I wanted to be there though, by the way, if we qualify, I wanted to be there. There's so much hunger for this. People are interested. And so when we talk about teaching it to our kids and maybe we didn't get it, well, maybe there's a reason why so much of the church is deconstructed, so much of the church is lost. They're like, we don't understand this. It's out of context. Well, it's because we, we haven't been really locking into it. So I'm excited. And just my own story to be learning and growing and have a hunger, I just have such a hunger for this. And so that's why the project for me was like, we have to do this by, by any means, took a very long time to get it into the end zone. And a lot of, a lot of challenges along the way. Yeah. Do you think there's any nuance to this daily bread? Just a little bit, because I'm, I'm reminded of the part that at some point, the Israelites complained. So we're tired of eating this. Yeah, there's, this is a cool thing. And we, we do more in the, in the episodics, in the episode on this particular phrase than we do in the film. We hit two facets in the film. There's actually three facets. There's a past, present and future component to daily bread to Jesus's audience. The first thing that when Jesus says, give us a stare daily bread, their minds would have gone back to the 40 years that they're in the wilderness where God provides daily bread, manna. And God's like, I'm going to give you what's essential, which is really when you're asking for daily bread, what's essential. That's really the question that's being asked. But there was also a present reality, which was the Romans were ruling the world. And Rome started in, in 123 BC, they started something in Latin called the Anona, which was a daily bread doll for the citizens in Rome, that they, in order to feed the citizens in Rome, bread lines, it was passing out bread. But here's the reason Italy is a phenomenal country for growing grapes and vines and doing wine. Terrible for bread for growing barley, grain, wheat. And so, irony that they like pasta so much. But that was the thing too, is they were constantly trying to make sure that there was enough bread to feed the citizens in Rome. And actually, when they, when they took Egypt, they, I mean, they hit the lottery. I mean, Egypt became the bread basket for the Roman Empire. But whenever that there was a shortage of bread, the other provinces had to give their bread in order to ensure that bread was the daily bread of Rome was given. And so, you had to take for me in order for somebody else to get, right? So it was a reminder of the hardship that you were under with the Romans, because for the Jewish people, they're on the Eastern frontier. Like they're the backwaters of the Empire. And they recognize like things are really, really, really difficult. And so there's a recognition around, man, we need to band together in order for us to have our daily bread. And this is the other thing I love one thing that you said too about, like you're supposed to like slow down dream, like let it sink in. When you're praying, even give us this day our daily bread, we're getting back to the plural, is that part of this is a moment we talk about this in the film, not everybody on that hillside was poor. You've got Matthew on that hillside that day, who was a tax collector. The dude is doing very good. You know. He's got more than daily bread. He's got a lot of bread. Exactly. But here's the soak. This is what's so cool. He's got the ziki sauce too. He does. He does. He's got the hummus. Is that when you pray, give us this day our daily bread, it's also a moment where you're supposed to pause and to say, do I have more than what I need? And can I actually be the answer to somebody else's prayer for daily bread? That's good. Yeah, because you take too much bread, it gets moldy. And that would have been a thing that they would remember. The maggots are part of the story. And it's so part of it is. And then there's a whole, as you know, a future, again, connected to a second Moses, this goes back to a tradition that when the new Moses, the Messiah is going to show up, he's going to re-institute the giving of daily bread, the treasure of manna and heaven is going to be open. This is actually then written down in second Baruch, which is contemporary, like 100 years after the time of Jesus' birth, about 100 AD, you have this. So there's this whole thing around that when the Messiah comes, he's going to give bread, which is by the way, the whole discussion between Jesus and the religious leaders and the Capernaum synagogue in John, chapter six. Flipping tables. You know what's interesting about this, as I'm reading this, we're halfway through this prayer, is it's very obvious to me that it's not a toxic relationship. And I think a toxic relationship is unbalanced completely. It's all about this person and it's a little bit about me, but you have our Father, you're holy, you know, your kingdom's here, you're with us, you're hanging out with us, you're spending time with us. It's happened in there, it's happened in here, and you give us bread, you know, and then you forgive us our debts, which is the next line, as we forgive other people. We're also involved. It's not a toxic. And I think every relationship with the gods, which we argue are real, ultimately it was toxic. Ultimately, they had a bait and switch situation, but this prayer is showing like, no, we're all in this. And I see your place in this, but I'm also like, you gotta humble yourself. And I'm calling you to this vocationary plan, right? Because part of the Daily Bread is like, oh, if you've got too much, you've got to give. I'm giving. Or you can be generous. Like generosity, because this is one of the things that we talk about in the film, which is if everybody's living with this posture of, if I have something that you need and I'm willing to give, it's not socialism. This is just, this is how communities work together. Everybody has that mentality, then everybody's going to have their Daily Bread. Well, socialism is your force to do it. Right. So you completely lose the plot. Right. You don't have any generosity like, dang, I have to give this thing or else. I'm, you know, I'm going to lose it. Texas. And I would say the next line, forgive our debts as we forgive our, as we also have forgiven our debtors. Yeah. Yeah. It isn't actual debts, I would say. This feels like something it's like, we understand debts, but there's some relational debts. Well, it's also sins. I mean, yeah. Yeah. The different word behind that can be translated into English a number of different ways. But yeah, it's basically all the ways that we've failed to reach out their trespass. Fallen short. Yeah. Fallen short. Yeah. And this is, this is a great part of- Your friend's band name and youth group. Fallen short, yeah. Right? Yeah. Zachary. That's all. That's all. Punk rock band called Zachary. Yeah. But so we've fallen short. So I mean, obviously the whole world can't go debt-free. That's impossible. Somebody's got to pay for something. Well, and here's the thing too, is if you think about God's mobilizing his community to bear his name, to live in such a way that his kingdom is advancing through them, they're being generous with one another. They're locked in on the vision. They know what they need to do. The number one thing that will cripple a relationship is unforgiveness. We hurt each other. It's the human experience. And so part of this is because here's the thing about this prayer, is we can look at this now, post the empty tomb and go, okay, daily I am reminded of how much God has forgiven me. Jesus gave this prayer before he went to a cross into an empty tomb, right? So immediately they're going, God forgive us as we are forgiving one another. It's this realization that the impetus is always God is the first mover. God is the one who is making this thing happen. We're reminded that before we could do anything, God forgave us. The Jesus came into the world and we're reminded that we have been forgiven so much and now we need to learn to forgive others because it's not, hey, except my forgiveness, right? And then if you can get around to giving forgiveness to one another, it's forgive us our debts as we also have forgiven our debtors. The implication is you are going to do that. It's not an option. You're going to be intentionally doing it. The challenge now becomes how do you become good at forgiveness? Because it is the most painful part of the human existence relationally. And it was stuck with me too about unforgiveness is we've had a number of exorcists, deliverance, pastors, et cetera on the show, talking about that. And the thing they always come back to is like, you don't need to be, it's not Ouija boards. It can be that it's not these really overtly evil things. He's like, oftentimes the foothold people give for the demonic and their lives is unforgiveness. That's the door and the window, which I think is like ultimate, is very convicting because I think in some ways we probably all harbor some unforgiveness somewhere, right? And if we're, I think it's interesting that it's called out here explicitly that we forgive, we've been forgiven our debts. So we forgive those that owe us, right? Whether that be monetarily or we feel like we're owed, we've been, there's been an injustice, right? Yeah, we could be the toxic person. We can think we get more than we have to give. And it's always, it's like a balancing, a full, because I think you can lose yourself on one of the, I don't need God at all. Or I'm just that Bible thumping guy at church is just, it's like, okay, bro, you know, like it's just too much. Like you're, there's no balance here. You're not even like, I just feel like we can control God or we can, we can do it on our own. And I think I like this prayer because it feels like it's constantly pulling you back into the center of see where you are in this prayer, see where you are in the universe and then operate accordingly. Well, we actually spent a lot of time on this forgiveness piece in the film, probably the most time was spent on the forgiveness side of it because it's so hard, you know, it's so painful, you know? But I remember a number of years ago, I came across Dr. Robert Enright, who was considered the father of forgiveness research. So he had done the most work around. It's quite the vocation to sign up for. Isn't it though? How do you dress for that job? If I dress for the job you want, right? I'm going to be the guy in forgiveness. But it was fascinating because he said in 100% of cases, those who struggled to unforgive had a misunderstanding of what forgiveness was and what it was not. You know? And so it's an important piece and we actually spent two chapters on that in bringing heaven here to really help people to understand the importance of forgiveness, but also how to do it because it's just a really challenging aspect. But you're always supposed to begin with the recognition of how much God has forgiven you and allow God to be the one that empowers you to do the very thing that you may think you can't do on your own. And we actually have this amazing illustration. It's a great juxtaposition too. You're like, all of the crap that I've done, God's forgiven me, like it becomes small peanuts, it seems like. Yeah. And sort of that. So you weigh the scales. And what do you think about the next line, you know, obviously, and lead us not into temptation? I mean, does, I think that's probably confusing for some people. It's very confusing. Off the bat. But I would say that the whole prayer is that God is involved in every aspect of our life. So clearly he's leading us places. He's giving us food. He's forgiving us. He's calling us into a relationship. And then, so he's not just going to be like, all right, and then have fun. Yeah. Go on your way to Mordor. Yeah. Good luck. Well, and we, this is one of those things where, again, where does it show up in the prayer? It's the last thing. Like this is the last line. For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever was actually something that was added later to tie up the prayer. Like people are open up their Bibles. They're not going to see for yours is the kingdom or for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. The prayer actually ends with lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. And when you just realize where we're at in the prayer, it's like, if you are successful in the rest of the prayer, hell's coming after you. Opposition. Blurry. That's very blurry. And this is the thing too, is there were two major moments in Jesus's life and ministry where he experiences extreme temptation. It's in the desert. Yeah. And it's also in Gethsemane. It's not explicitly stated Satan's presence there, but all the echoes of what was happening in the desert is showing up in the Garden of Gethsemane. And what you see here is even, you know, Pope Francis had the language clarified because according to James chapter one, God does not tempt people. People when they're being tempted can't say God's tempting me because God cannot be tempted by evil nor does he tempt anyone. That's what James writes in James chapter one. And so the language of temptation can also be translated as to a time of testing. And the idea is, is that you're going to be in moments where God does not tempt Satan, tempts, but God will test or allow it, right? Or allow it. It's a job, right? And the idea is, is that when these moments come, when hell's throwing its best at you, like you need to be aware that you do not live in a neutral existence. This earth is not neutral, right? Because of Genesis three, this is not neutral. Like the forces of good and the forces of evil, shalom versus chaos, it's all duking it out, here and now. And we, if we're going to be part of the kingdom of light, when we are a threat to the kingdom of darkness, then you're going to experience opposition. And it's a reminder every day to wake up to the war that we are in for our soul, for our mind, for our ideas, for our attention. Because that's everything Satan will want to use to derail you from being effective ambassadors of God, who is working to seek God's kingdom of advance on earth as it is in heaven. So throw your phone away, right? Well, I mean, the whole point doesn't give any fear, it's not a prayer of fear. It's like, well, then there's this devil out in the bushes, he's going to get you, so you better watch out. It's like there's this feeling of, even the dark, I'm on control over. So even though you're going through things, and I think as fathers, our job is to introduce a little bit of fear and risk for our boys, our sons. It's like, mothers will be like, no, you can't do anything that's ever going to hurt you. But the dad's like, he's got to learn, he's got to go through, put him in the creek, let him walk something, you know, and, but I'm there. So I'm going to make sure, but if dad doesn't ever introduce any element of danger, kids never learn. And then they become weak. The language is, these things happen, don't let it, don't let us die by these things, don't let it overtake us, but it's still very much I'm in control of it. That's why we're not unequipped. Yeah. Like that's part of, even when Paul gets to the end, you guys just had the conversation with Tom Wright on Ephesians. The last part of Ephesians is the armor of God. Why is Paul taking spiritual warfare and connecting it to a Roman soldier and then connecting all of these realities to these, and at the heart of all of that, even, you can see this with Jesus, is that when he is in the desert and all three of the temptations that Satan throws at him, his responses, he quotes scripture. Yeah. If the Son of God is quoting scripture verbally as a way of defeating the temptation that is underway, how much more should we be unleashing the word of God in that way as a way of being able to know, like we have weapons and not to, you know, glorify war in any way, it's just, we're in the midst of a spiritual battle and we are not ill-equipped. Like Jesus came to show us how to engage this world in his terms. And it makes, Tom Brad, it makes sense to me, like, that there, it seems there's such a war to keep us out of our Bibles too, right? I mean, it's like every, even like just personally, every time that you set aside, it's like, ah, but this is, this fire needs to be put out and this is happening, or this is buzzing on your phone. And when you say that, I'm reminded that like if Christ is, as you say, is quoting scripture, is a response to temptation, then we've, we better know what's in our Bibles, right? Because that's the best weapon we have. And yet it does feel like, I mean, there's a war on a million things. There's a war on families and the nuclear family and our kids, but there's absolutely a war on keeping us out of our Bibles and out of, out of, out of that weapon as you, whether we've been given. I really thought about it like that. It's so interesting. Yeah. If you guys come across John Mark Comer's book, Live No Lies. I know John Mark Comer, I've read a couple of his books. So God has a name and... Yeah. Live No Lies is really good. And he's got a, he's got a section there where he talks about Evagaris, which was, I think he's a four century monk, but he wrote a book and it's called The Handbook for Combating Demons. And what it was, is he went through his entire life and he said, where am I susceptible to temptation? And he wrote down every time, like every, everything that would be constitute. And then he found a passage of scripture in its proper context and that he would write alongside of that. So when he was going through that temptation, these were the words he would speak aloud. And he said, this was the number one way that I was able to stay on the straight and narrow or to not succumb to temptation is because I had already figured out what my proclivities were, where I'm tempted to fall and found something in the word of God that could speak directly against that. And I would unleash that when I was going through that experience. And we just want to tell him right. He said basically the only offensive weapon that Paul talks about is a sword. Exactly. And so everything else is defensive, right? It's a helmet and a shield. Shield and... And they're offensive. And to that point is the word of God. And he broke down to that just doesn't necessarily, just mean the Bible. There's this, there's an aspect to... The spoken word, like receiving a word. 100%. So he's talking about sort of what the language would have been there, but... Yeah. Super interesting. All the words of Jesus. You know, obviously I think, I mean, N.T. Wright said that yesterday, you know? Yeah. Like you take Jesus with you everywhere you go, you're... Nothing's gonna be able to touch you anyway. But I don't think we think about it in those terms. It's kind of like I've overcome the darkness. So it's there. It's a part of the story. Yeah. But it's not the end of the story. And I think we can, we can often get stuck in a fear brain and then we just over, we're overcome with fear and doubt and we get depressed, we get anxious. But I think this starts with all the good. Yeah. And it gets to like, and there's this other thing. Don't worry. Is Deliverous, is that also Exodus language? Are we talking about Deliverous from... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It delivers from evil too is just, you know, part of it is, is just because you pray the prayer obviously doesn't mean that bad things are gonna happen. Right? But we also say this prayer on the other side of an empty tomb, right? And it's a reminder daily, death and the devil and sin, they have been defeated. And we long for the day when Jesus comes back to make all things right. And everything that Jesus did 2000 years ago on a cross and an empty tomb is going to be brought to the fullness of fruition. In the meantime, we're reminded like death, the devil, say that's all, like their time is ticking. Right? Right. And regardless of what happens in our lives, God's will and God's way prevails in the end. We know who wins. And it's just a good reminder that even when things are really difficult, that it's not always going to be this way. I love it. So finish this out here. Yeah. For yours is the kingdom. You said it was added later in the power. Yeah. So actually in the Didache, when I mentioned earlier that discipleship training manual, that actually has two of the three parts of this post script in the prayer. So already at the end of the first century, we see it happening. And it says for yours is the power and the glory forever. The kingdom piece. And all of that we first see in biblical manuscripts in the fourth, fifth century. But already with the Didache, it's, we've got part of it. And what it is, is that when Jesus actually said, deliver us from evil, what's the very next thing? For if you forgive others when they sin against you, then your heavenly father will forgive you. But if you don't forgive others, their sins, your heavenly father won't forgive your sins. Right. Like he just keeps going with the sermon on the mount. Right. And so what the early churches did, and by the way, there's biblical precedent for this. They're using language from other prayers like Solomon used in the, in the temple dedication ceremony, all that is they basically just said, we're going to just put a nice way of tying it up in order to be able to use it in a liturgical setting. So it's a great, just, it's just a summary of what's the whole thing about yours is the kingdom. It's not mine. It's your kingdom, your power. It's ultimately for your glory. Amen. Now let's get to work. That's awesome, man. I mean, it's going to change how I think about this prayer, I think, for, forever and also I want to do. Well, I think it's just like the characters are all in there. It's a story of relationships. You know, it's like our father, he's come down here, we're eating together, community together. And there's also this other character that evil won. So there's all these, it's a lot that's in there. You know, there's a lot of relationships and communication between the two. So I think oftentimes, you know, a lot of these things are debated. Just the relational aspect of our faith is hotly contested and argued about, especially the middle ages of what that all means. But I think if you read this prayer from like a blurry lens where we're like, there's a lot of weird characters in all these stories, it helps you understand the relationship. It's all about a relationship. It's all about coming to the table with something, but not taking over the table, being part of the table, sitting down, eating, communing, having a responsibility. But it's not your kingdom. It's not your table. So have some respect, but also invite somebody, bring someone with you. We're all welcome. And what a cool thing in a small prayer that... I just think it also was such important work. I mean, that's what I was going to ask next when you guys is like... And it's something that seems so simple, but also so profound, right? And I think that resonates. Like so, you said, what's been seven years making the film. Is that right? Yeah. I mean, this is like we, I don't know how long we've been talking, but this thing is loaded. And that's why I mean, it's just there's, there is so much there. Can we talk about, I mean, so can we talk a little bit about like some of the resistance, some of the things that you guys came up against? That's the last part of the prayer. That has been abundantly clear. Is this has been, from conception to completion, has been over six years now. And we went, I mean, it was a lot of opposition that we experienced. Let's hear about some of that. It's the blurry creatures. I want to hear about, I mean, because... Get blurry, Joel. I think when you try, we're talking about this, when you try to join God in something, you pray, you invite him into your work, and then he answers and starts connecting dots. Even how the project got started on the same day, two different people who don't know each other, who are, who have got really close relationships with, told me about Brad's idea and like, you need to meet this guy. I was like... We found out we were sitting two rows away from each other for two years at Church of the City. I know where Joel sits. We had never met. And it took, it took a senior producer BSPN to connect us, you know. What is this? No, but you know, it's a Southwest flight. That's how I treated it. I was trying to find... You guys don't know Southwest is changing. They are, dude. How the project came to be, the process of development, we realized just how to structure this thing. Again, started as a television show. We worked on that for years, made a pilot, Mark Burnett, as a legendary producer. We just had Chad Hayes earlier this week and he was talking about Mark and Richard. Shark Tank and The Voice and all that. He sees the pilot. He's like, I love this. I mean, he was super kind to us. He was like, this is the greatest thing I've ever seen. You need to do a movie first to let people get their toe in the water. Like, take these seven episodes and do... There's 30 minute episodes. You put three and a half hours of going through here, which is all... For people that don't, are familiar, you guys are going on site to the locations, right? Egypt, to Israel. Yeah, this documentary is really... It's a bizarre genre. It's kind of a new genre. Like you just heard, it's like a third teaching in theology, in biblical context. It's a third just experiential, cinematic travel doc. Like, go to the places. So, we're all over Israel, Egypt. We're in Greece. We go to UK. We go to UK for N.T. Wright for a little bit. We're in Jordan. You know, Jordan. Bunch of places here in the States. And that's something, you know, I didn't realize this, but 99.9% of people of believers will never go to the Holy Land. Think about that. Like... Also, what you're describing sounds a little bit like blurry. It's like a third teaching. It's a third we go wild places. Like, go to Israel in April with a bunch of folks and... Yeah. I don't know what the last third was, but we'll get there and say... But this is like a... Weird, third weird. You know, this is a cinematic pilgrimage. You know, we believe these words. We live our lives around the collection of 66 books, but we don't actually even... A lot of most people don't know what it looks like. They don't understand it. They can't see it, you know, geographically. And that really matters. That was one of the biggest discoveries for me in this process is like the dirt matters. The land matters. There's so much more. It's almost like just reading this stuff is like two-dimensional. Well, yeah. I think about like... When you go there, it's multi-dimensional. A very simple example is like reading about Gettysburg and then going to St. St. in there. Like there's more something that's local here. It's like so different. You can feel the land and feel the things that happen there. And like in that case, the severity or the heaviness of what happened. I've never been to the Holy Land. That'll be shortly here, but what happens? You guys have any crazy spiritual warfare, miracles? What... Do you guys have any wild things that happened in trying to make this film? Imagine over six years, especially as we do the Lord's Prayer, the resistance to a project like this has to be pretty extreme. So the cameras get better from the first year you make it to the seventh year. Here is the funny thing is I was actually... We were sitting at the premiere and I said to my wife, I leaned over to my wife and I was like, I'm four and a half years different in this film, depending upon what scene we're in. Yeah. You guys started with that camera right there. We started in 1080. We did in 10K. Exactly. It's a little grainy. No, we did. We had... There were a number of stories. And just being able to pitch this idea and to get people to understand what we were doing and to be able to raise the necessary funds to be able to do this. As Joel mentioned, we got to do a pilot and the pilot was a pretty wild experience in Israel and Egypt. We were dealing with COVID. So that was the first issue that we had is the idea got developed in COVID. And that was when Joel and I met was... I remember this. ...in August of 2020. And then we were having to try to get into the country and we could get into Egypt, but we couldn't get into Israel, but we needed to do the trip with both countries. And then we actually had to film the whole pilot episode in reverse because we were in... We had to go to Israel first and then we went to Egypt and it was just... It was its own kind of wild story. But then when we went back to film the rest of the episodes, to film all the stuff for the film also Joel and Daniel and I and our team were together. And... Very first... Very first... It's true way. Yeah, well, very first night they all arrived. We were already in country. We're working on another project. First night they all arrived. Iran decides to send hundreds of drones and ballistic missiles into Israel. So you guys remember this in April? This is that first unprecedented attack that had never been done before. You were sending videos to me into our Bible study and I was like, Oh, yeah, I bet Erica's a little bit worried. No, it was... I've never... Actually, my wife called me. She's like, Do you know that Iran's just sent hundreds of drones your way? And I've lived in Israel. I've been there so many times and all this kind of stuff. I didn't even... I just kind of almost kind of rode it off. I've been here in the midst of challenging times before, but... The news was they're overwhelming the Iron Dome. This is the plan. It worked that night, but we have video from the top of the hotel and then went into the bunker. But from the very beginning, I mean, that's the definition of opposition. Many folks on our crew were like, we have to leave. And we're sitting there trying to discern that. We're like, Yeah, of course we don't want to be in any dangerous circumstances there for work. We're going to have to come back. And one of the ways it got answered that was like the airlines all shut down, like the airspace is down. Can't leave. Can't leave. Yeah. But we prayed through that and what it ended up being was just the definition of a blessing in disguise because do you know all these holy sites that are normally just tourist, just covered in people? If you go into some of these sites, all you see is the back people's heads. And we're there. No one's in there, empty. Holy sepulcher, empty. I mean, unbelievable. So we have footage in this that never really has been filmed before because you've never seen those places without lines of people, guardrails and traffic management and all this stuff. Also, the priests specifically at Holy Sepulcher, you guys know about this place, five churches have domain over it. To film in there, you have to get permission from five different churches. It rarely ever happens. The only time it's ever been shot in that I know of before in cinema has been for Morgan Freeman's story of God, which we worked on ironically. This is kind of a different version. But they've never filmed in the inner tomb shrine. The eddycule there. That actually has the, there's a stone from the tomb of Jesus and it is allegedly the place. And that's a whole other conversation about are these places the places. But this is the holiest site and there's never been a film camera in there before. The Greek Orthodox priest was like, come on in. You know, like unbelievable. That never happens. And that's like the guy who has to basically defend that place. He's like, I'm not letting anybody in here and he's kicking people out. He doesn't let you bring your phones in, all that stuff. So we got to film that. And it's in the film. And I don't know that that footage exists anywhere else. That's a good get, Joel. I mean, it was, it was cool to see that, you know, time and circumstance, you know, you got the footage and we talk about all the time, where was the camera when that happened? Yeah, you didn't film it. I was too scared to film it. But you got, you got the moment. But we, we did. I mean, I think that the moment that Joel talked about too, that was just really significant was, I mean, this has never been done in human history. No country had sent hundreds of drones to wreak havoc in another country. And this was, you know, post October 7th. So the country was already thin because of what was going on in Gaza. And, and then when we showed up, and it wasn't that, you know, Iran released, you know, hundreds of, of drones because we showed up in country. It was just the timing of it was like, awesome. Everybody's, you know, especially back home, everybody wants to come home, come home, we're sitting in the lobby in Jerusalem the next morning after we've been in a bunker and we're talking through like, and nobody knows like, is this going to be the beginning of a much bigger escalation? Are other nations going to jump in? Is it nuclear? Is it going to get all of those questions were happening? And we just literally just got together and we were just praying through, we just sensed God saying, I didn't fly you halfway around the world to fly you back after two days. Go do what I've asked you to do. And as a result of that, like we go into, you know, the church of holy sepulcher, we go to get Semite. I mean, I have been, I've lived in Israel, studied there. I've been leading steady hiking trips since 2010. I've been there a lot and under all circumstances. And we're filming things I've never even been able to set foot into before, not just get a camera in. I've never even put my foot on the soil there. And that was one of the things that was pretty wild was just we get to places and all of a sudden it was almost kind of like, these are not the drones you're looking for. Doors are open. I mean, and it's not that just because the country is empty or the site is empty, it's that they've never allowed cameras in there. So it's a whole nother level of permission. We didn't even have a permit to get into some of these places. Doors would just open literally. And I've Like in the good way, not like the poltergeist way. Yeah, in the blurry way. But I mean, there was countless stories of opposition. We had a guy high up in the country of Jordan who was a part of their commission. We had a lot of heated arguments about access to things. And After being granted, then we'd show up and then it would be denied. And then it was just like, I mean, we got a whole team there. It's a whole, it's a whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. So kind of almost like shutting us down in the moment. There was all sorts of stuff personally that happened to all sorts of different people on the crew, probably their stories to share and or not. But I mean, just stuff that was just constant. This is wrong. This is wrong. Code red here. And yet every day we would go out and somehow we'd find ourselves filming in locations that hadn't been filmed before. Or we could get in inside. And it was just like that. I think that over there, it is so important to them, the physical places, the stories, how the stories are represented, the way that the different churches have different interpretations or different domain over these things. It's like life or death over there. And here it's like our version of this, religion and practice of our faith is just a little, it's a lot different. Well, there's a lot of reasons to control the flow of information in and out, whether it's protecting your history or tourism or all those things. And we were in tradition. We were in Machu Picchu and got shut down just us, a small group of people. And they had a call in favor to get us out of there. But I mean, we weren't filming anything. We were just talking about stuff. Hey, maybe they didn't build this. No, you can't talk about that. And then the locals are like, shut us down. So when you bring cameras in, it's like, then you're creating a narrative. They don't want that narrative out there. And so yeah, you would have to have that. That's what they want. They want to know what you're filming. Yeah. Especially when you're... Brad at one point is like, dude, I can't change the Bible. He was like, say it like this. He's like, you change it. I can't change. But we had a moment in Jordan going to Wadi Rum, which is just this... It's like an other world experience in Wadi Rum. It's where Martian was filmed, Lawrence of Arabia, Dune, Star Wars. That's where it's being filmed over there. It's like another planet. Yeah. And so we actually had this shot. And in the film, there's a moment later in the film where I'm silhouetted against the sun. And we were... It was just... It was all for B-roll. This was not like critical to the storyline. This is our last day of filming in Israel and Jordan before we were going to come back and do Egypt and a couple of other countries. And so anyhow, we literally go out and we're driving for two hours to find this shot. And we're looking at where's the sun dropping. We wanted to have this moment where I'm coming up the backside of the Dune and I'm between mountains. The sun is setting and I'm just silhouetted against it. And it's just to talk about the journey of just some of the stuff we're talking about. Get your lightsaber out and it's just... So it feels like that. But here's the thing is we finally find the place. They get set up for the shot. It's taken us a couple hours to find it. And because the shot is to have the Dune be virgin, like so there's no footsteps, like I'm coming around the backside and they keep having me pop my head up to go, where's the sun dropping? Where are you going to be? And so I'm elevated. They're all off in a distance shooting a long range shot. And in the distance, I see like this two... Like the dust just start coming up out of the desert. Well, it's two trucks and they're like hauling through the desert. Like it's like they're going 75 miles an hour. They're fishtailing. I'm like, what are these guys doing drag racing in the desert? Well, what we don't know at that moment is I'm up and I'm seeing them coming and they're down filming is that these are two drunk Bedowans who think that we're trespassing, that we don't have access to film in their part of Wadi Rum. And they come tearing at the group and I am watching this and they slam on their brakes. Coming in hot like a worm. Yeah. Like it almost takes out our entire team. Wow. They get out, they're screaming, our security is screaming. It's unbelievable chaos. And very calmly, I hear Joel, because I've got on the walkie in my in my backpack, he goes, and we are filming this in five, four... And I come up off the backside and we get the shot. And it's like 10 minutes of just, I mean, they're about to come to blows. Like they almost took out our entire team. Like they're drunk. I mean, it was, it was just one of those extremely chaotic scenes. So when you see the shot, there's more than just the shot. The whole thing is like the SEC just means more. This has been great. How work, work and they wins the film. Yeah. There's three things here. So the book, where, where's the book? Where can I find it? The film is out. The film is out. And then it goes to Netflix. Yeah. So it's on, film is available on Angel right now. And I think we have a code for you guys. So everyone can watch it for free because Angel is a subscription service. So we have that. The show will be coming out early next year. And so that will be seven episodes of this thing. And then the book is available now as well. Yeah. It's all at, it's all at the lordsprayer.com. Yeah. We have the lordsprayer.com. As Joel mentioned, Angel's been very generous in providing a code for people to watch it. So literally people can just put in angel.com slash blurry. And they can watch the film for like that. They did that. Yeah. Blurry. Yeah. Angel.com slash blurry. And you, you can watch it on Angel. Who knew? Look at your boys. It just means more, you know. Yeah. Well, thanks, dude. This has been a treat though, especially because we're friends and, and, and Franklin having you guys on the show has been really awesome. And I mean, love listening to you teach at church. And then of course, like everything you do, Joel, I love, you know, and I will make a quick correction. I'm not a teaching pastor on staff. Okay. I didn't know how to put that. No, it's great. It's great. I just, I just know that. Hey, that's, I'm not eating that. I see you on stage as a pastor, so then you're teaching. No, I know, I know. So, yeah. I mean, that like in a sort of a non-official stance. My world is now us working together to do this kind of stuff. I love every time I get a chance to guest teach at, at Church of the City. And we love our community. Bible nerd, Brett Gray. That's right. Who gets on stage every once in a while is not officially pastoral or revered at this moment. Yeah. Not a revered. I mean, when you kept in it, I still am more dain. So I technically do have my skin all over and part of that too. So, yeah. I had to hold back some dad jokes and that when you kept saying my kingdom, my kingdom, I kept thinking, I didn't vote for you. Some aquatic ceremony, you know. But anyway, guys, thanks so much. Yeah, some talk. Yeah. Tosses. You're not king. Some watery tart through a sword at you. Film makers, I don't know. Anyway, thanks guys. Thanks guys. It was fun. Appreciate it. Yeah.