Mackenzie Undercover: The Surrogate Scandal

The following program contains names, places, and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a left one are involved in an abusive relationship please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support. Happy dating today! You guys were in studio together and it's the best when we're together but that was so funny. It's actually Friday when we were recording and last night we got to go to a very cool party because there's a podcast category at the Golden Globes this year. The Golden Globes nominee pre-party and it was so amazing. We got to meet some incredible people, incredible artists, and it was really awesome. And we went there because you guys listened to our show. So that's kind of cool. So our gratitude is so big. Thank you so much for supporting our podcast. Shout out to my dad who thinks we're nominated. And he kept saying like, congratulations. I'm like, no thank you but we're not nominated yet. But I love that you think that. And there were a lot of really great podcast hosts there that it was really amazing to meet. So really cool to be in that space. Thank you so much. It's all because of you guys for listening, supporting us, and sharing your incredible, incredible, incredible, vulnerable stories that you're so brave and courageous to share. So thank you so much. Thank you to our Patreoners, which by the way now we have the two Patreon tiers, the five dollar where you get the two bonus episodes and the book club, which by the way is next Sunday. It's two Sundays from now, right? The 18th. The 18th? Yeah. Pretty thing. Yes. The book is pretty thing. Some of you I know I've read it. It's really, it's a quick read. So read it, but also if you're somebody that wants to make sure you remember it. And then the week of. And then the nine dollar tier is basically the ad-free listening. So you get to join the Patreon and we would love to have you there if you're not there already. And if you are there, of course, thank you again so much. It's just, we're filled with so much gratitude and it's a new year. So we're going to do great things with you guys. Cool way to kick off the year. Anyways, today we want to share a McKinsey undercover story with you. Yay. So this was a case that I worked that I have been a little bit kind of not nervous to share, but it could be very triggering for some people. It involves pregnancy, surrogacy, and it can be a little triggering. And so I just want to let you guys know that these are cases that I actually work. These are just facts that I'm sharing with you. Some of them are going to piss you off. Yeah. I'm really sorry for that, but it's important to know like this stuff is like some of the stuff is stranger than fiction. Like you can't make this up. And our guests are so vulnerable, like we said, and it's amazing. What I think is so fun about having you or some of the other PIs who have come on, you guys are the flies on the wall seeing the stories that no one wants to admit. Like some of definitely these dogfish are not going to come out and talk about them, but we know how hard it is to tell your story. And I'm grateful that we have a way to see what's happening behind closed doors through you in a way that obviously you're changing appropriate details. We have a legal team. Like we're keeping it. Nobody's getting put on blast publicly, but it's like we can still learn from these stories. And also from what you've told me about this one, it's wild. Yeah. So I think we should jump into it because Hannah's face is what she's dying to hear this story. So this one involves two men who are in a relationship and these are two 30 something professional men. They've been married a couple of years. They want to have a baby. And as we all know, a man and a woman needs to come together to make baby and sperm, fertilize, you don't know how that works, right? We don't need to have the birds and the bees talk. But with the same sex couples when they want to have a baby, obviously there needs to be a different person who can offer a sperm or an egg or whatever the case is, however they want to do it. But these two men want to have a baby. So the story that I'm going to share with you about this is mostly information that I learned after the fact. And then I'm going to get to the point where I come in to do the surveillance. So I'm going to tell it in a way that is timeline. And then we'll get to the point where I do the surveillance. So the story starts with, let's call them Adam and Steve because that's funny. Wait, that's yeah. That's great. So Adam and Steve. Yeah. So let's say Adam and Steve, they want to get together. They want to have a baby, right? So they decide that they are going to, instead of finding a stranger, they have a good friend who is married. So it's a straight heterosexual couple. And they are willing to pay this woman who is in this heterosexual couple who they are very good friends with for like 10 years. They want to pay her to have their baby. The husband is okay with it. And he, the husband of the, we're going to call them Betsy and Bob. That's so funny. Adam, Steve, Betsy and Bob. Okay. So Adam and Steve go to Betsy and Bob and say, Hey, we're really good friends with you. We trust you. We would like for you, Betsy, to be the surrogate mother of our child. Now, obviously for Bob, the husband of this woman, I would imagine like he'd be like, oh, like, what's going on? You know, that's my wife, but they talked about like what they're going to do. Well, yeah, I feel like every TV show when this happens, though, guys like, do you have to do sex with that man? And it's like, no, we've got other. We've got a turkey based really calm down, but they decided they didn't want to go the medical route. So they decided that Adam from the gay couple was going to have sex with Betsy. So she's monitoring her and they, Betsy and Bob have two children of their own. They're kind of done having kids. Like they didn't want to raise any more kids, but she was at a good age. Like they're the same age as them, like early thirties, because she didn't mind being pregnant. You know, they're offering them some money and this is some income to add to their families. And they say, hey, we want you to have our baby, but we don't want to do it medically because that's a waste of money. And we feel like we could pay you instead. And we could like, you know, just do it the traditional way of how you make a baby. Wow. Now, Adam and Steve have been married for several years. And Bob is like, well, I mean, it is extra money. Like talk about indecent proposals. So all three of the men you know, kind of talk obviously with Betsy involved, because she's willing to do it. But when they talked about actually having sex, she was like, that's kind of weird, but like, I mean, it's how babies are made. I'm not judging. I think it sounds, it sounds intriguing. Yeah, but I mean, you got to all be really on the same page. You really, and I could imagine the long-term effects of knowing like, well, you did this with this guy or like, I could have just want, but whatever. But they decided the money would be great for their family. So they decide together as a foursome. They said, we not only do we want you to be the surrogate for our child, but we also want you to be the godparents of our kids. Like we love you guys. We're very close. And also, by the way, Adam, the guy that was going to have sex with Betsy to get pregnant, he is bisexual. So he had been with women before where Steve had not. Steve has always been gay, not interested. So Adam and Betsy get together, they're marking her ovulation, they have sex. And from what I understand, just from the details I was given, which I didn't want to pry anymore, just because it was unprofessional in the moment and like kind of weird. But I didn't really ask like, Oh, did you guys have like a like what'd you do? Like were you guys holding hands? Like was this like a kumbaya thing? And you were like circled like, like where were the other people? Like I don't really know how it went down. All I know is that Adam and Betsy had sex, everyone was on board, everyone knew everyone was on the up and up they understood this is what was happening. So apparently for three days, they had sex during her ovulation window or whatever. And she gets pregnant the very first time that they have that not the very the very first three days like in that three days, she gets pregnant. Okay. And from what I understand, they had already talked about Bob and Betsy abstaining from sex so that it would for sure be the other guy's baby. So they wanted to make sure this was not Bob's baby. They wanted to make sure that this was Adam's baby with Betsy. And so then they would both be the father and you do the legal adoption, whatever. So that Adam and Steve can both be the legal parents of his child. The New Year hits. And suddenly I just want to reorganize everything and change up my whole life. I'm going one thing at a time. I really did want to like learn how to dress myself this year. I've never been great at it. I don't think I have the visual eye, but I'm getting better. And I think I know what I like. But now I'm using daily look. And guys, I'm blown away. I'm like very pleasantly surprised by this option. 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I got a pair of wide leg jeans that fit perfectly. And it's so hard to find good jeans. I got a blazer, a black blazer that I'm going to wear all the time, two sweaters that I might not have thought I would look good in. And I actually like them a lot. And it's great because sometimes I struggle with like business casual when I have an event that's like formal, but not too formal. And it's perfect. And then I got a little skirt, like the cutest little black skirt that's like actually a score and has a little belt. And it's so easy. It's all just stuff that I was like, wait, I want to keep all of it. And it really did fit my style. It's time to get your own personal stylist with daily look head to daily look.com to take your style quiz and use code dating detectives for 50% off your first order. Once again, that's daily look.com for 50% off. So she gets pregnant. Okay. So she's carrying this baby. And for the next nine months, they're hanging out, they're spending time together. They're really, really getting close. Like, as I would imagine they would because this woman is carrying your child. So you have a group chat that they are all in. And this is how they chose to communicate so that if something was happening, they were all part of it. Even Bob, who he obviously, I think as the husband, like he deserved to be part of it too. Yeah. And if he's going to be a God parent, of course. And so they wanted to make sure that everything was on the up and up. Sounds great. Right. All right. Cool. You wanted to avoid the medical route. Fine. So they're in a group chat. So Betsy is about, I don't know, 32 weeks along 32 or 36. I don't know. It was very close to when she was supposed to give birth. And they named the baby together. Adam and Steve, they're in control of everything. Betsy and Bob understand that Betsy is just the surrogate, but also she's enjoying this, right? And they're, they're getting really close. So it's right before it comes time for her to give birth. She has to go to one of the checkups. So Steve happened to be, be available on the day. Is that the one she had sex with? No. No. Okay. So Adam, she had sex with Steve was the guy who's gay. So during her appointments, someone would go with her. So she wasn't alone. And it's kind of cool. You have all these different people involved and they're all there to support you, which I think is neat. And like, obviously, from what I understand, Bob was supportive of her, but also tried to stay out because it wasn't his baby, but he did want to support her and his friends. And so he was involved. But Adam and Steve were kind of like taking turns or like, whenever they were available, they would go with her to her appointment. So she was never alone. So Steve goes with her to her appointment during one of the last appointments. And so they have this group chat with all four of them, right? And the group chat gets a text from Steve that says, it was really good seeing you like that again today. I'm sorry, what? Yeah. So Steve texts the group chat. It was really good seeing you like that again today. And so obviously everybody's like, I'm sorry, what? So then I guess that could be Steve. Yeah. And so Steve texts that to the group chat. And so Steve, he bumbles the ball, so he tries to pick it up and he's like, oh, I'm in like the vulnerability. I was so excited to see Betsy in this like vulnerable moment in like with the baby and all that stuff. And so nobody really knows what's going on, but he's trying to fix it. Okay. So still Bob actually is the one that says, Hey, is everything okay? Is there something going on? Like he texts the group chat and says, what's going on? Like, is it, you know, what did that mean? What did, yeah, like, what did that mean? Like that sounds really weird. And I can imagine in Bob's position a little insecure, maybe like your wife is carrying another man's baby. And but I, like, if it was me, I would think, oh, I'm not worried about it because that's Steve. Like Steve is the gay guy. I wouldn't also text the group chat. I would call my wife. Okay, well, he didn't. He texts, you know, he's like, Hey guys, like, we're in this together. What the hell does that mean? Because obviously, and he's sitting with it for a couple of days before he comes back to the group chat says, okay, this is still sitting with me. What does this mean? So this strange message is sitting with Bob and he's not liking it. And he's like, I just don't, I just don't get it. And they're like, Oh, it's nothing. He's just so vulnerable. Yeah, his man, man tuition. So they just kind of, you know, played it off, whatever. Well, Bob at this point is really insecure. Okay. So Bob tells his sister. So Bob's sister's name is Stacy. So Bob confides in his sister, Stacy. And Stacy is a what do you call them? They, they do the crap, the liaison when you're getting a, the mediator for divorces. Like that's what she does. She's a mediator. Oh, so she's seen things. So she's seen things. And she obviously like, she's got some Friday senses to like, she don't trust nobody either. Because she's a mediator. She knows that people are manipulative. So Bob goes to Stacy. Well, the sister being a mediator, she comes to me as a private investigator. Oh, and she says, Hey, because this is someone that I've, you know, she's worked with our firm before. Like, so she's, she's familiar with our team. She's familiar with me. So Stacy comes, Hey, is there something we can look into about this? Because my spidey senses are tingling. My femtuition is off. My brother's in this position. I've never liked it, but it works for their family. And who am I to say anything? I've seen crazier things in my career. Like, yeah. And now we have a shred of evidence that there might be something going on. Yeah. But again, Bob's not worried about it because Steve is gay. He's not, he's not. Don't worry about it, but he's still telling his sister. He tells his sister. He's got it deep down in his little bed. So I said, okay, well, let's start with what we can figure out about. First of all, obviously I wanted a deep dive. Like I wanted all the details. So Stacy goes to Bob and says, Listen, can you give me more details? Like I'd really like to know more about this situation. I've been trying to not be real nosy about it, but I really am curious more about this. And so Bob kind of starts to confide in Stacy that he's a little skeptical. Like he's like, I don't know, like we're in this group chat, but it's just really weird. So then Stacy is now planting seeds in Bob's head. Like so Bob besides, he's going to pull text records. Like he's going to go in their cell phone records and he wants to pull. He wants to know if they're texting on the side because he's like, if this was an accidental text, which clearly something like that, like it was really good to see you like that again today. It sounds like if you, if you're looking at it in the, it's flirty in the different light, like there are different ways you can look at that. And it's a little flirty, but at first he was like, I'm just being stupid. This guy's gay. There's no way. Like that's ridiculous. So he starts looking at text messages. Well, and he pulls them like not goes through her phone. He literally pulls the record. He just goes to Verizon.com looks at their phone plan, pulls up the text, and you can't, you can't pull up the conversations without a warrant, but you can pull up the text numbers, times, dates and all of that. So the time. Okay. So, but, but the actual conversations you need a warrant for. So he sees that she has actually been texting Steve. She, Betsy has been texting gay Steve on the side outside of their group chat. Well, they decided in the beginning that this would be everything on the up and up. Everybody would be in a group chat. Nobody would be on one on one chats. There's no need for it. Yeah. If Stacy is talking to Adam, then she needs to be able to talk to everybody. Like this is a group project. Okay. It's a really good idea. Basically setting the expectation. If you are chatting with someone outside of our group chat that first of all, no, that's a no, no, because you're crossing a boundary. Yeah. You're crossing a boundary. Well, Stacy ain't freaking having it. Stacy's like, yeah, you're all willy-nilly just watching your wife pregnant with some other dude baby. And we're just supposed to sit by and be like, this is fine. And it's not the norm. Obviously. Like when this happens, most of the time people go through, they go through medical procedures. Yeah. Yeah. Insemination to make sure that they don't, no one feels violated in their body. And it can be done, you know, in a way that's a little bit more, a little bit more sterile, you know, and a little less intimate, but also you don't need the intimacy if you're just going to be a surrogate, right? Like obviously that's an intimate situation, but you know what I mean? Like sexual intimacy. There's definitely no road map for the way they've chosen to navigate. But also that was their choice. And they decided together as consenting adults, they all enthusiastically consent into this. Okay. And this is what makes it really difficult is that Stacy, as Bob's sister, she's worried about Bob because Bob is kind of the outsider here. He's not the sperm. He's not the egg. He's not the parent. I just thought of a question. Oh, what question? What legal rights does she have? Like did they put any legal writing in place to say that this would be the couple's child and she wouldn't have rights to it? Or are they waiting to do it after? They did see an attorney who got them set up with the appropriate documentation so that they have it all set up. Like this is not her child. She's prepared to sign over all parental rights to this couple. Like they're doing the adoption and everything as the baby is in her belly. They are doing the adoption. Yeah, they had all of that worked on the beginning. That's a really good question. So Stacy is just, she is paralyzed with fear for Bob that he is just not like something ain't right. He pulls the text and he sees that Betsy and Steve are actually texting at certain times of the evening. And it was always during a time when Betsy would say she's going to the gym. And so he noticed that every time she would go to the gym, she would stop texting. There was no activity on her phone whatsoever. She's exercising her thumb. Yeah, right. So he's thinking, okay, if she's going to the gym and then all text messages stop for the next two or three hours while she's at the gym these several nights a week, she's really working out hard or she's busy and she's not actually at the gym. And so because Stacy has this mind, like she sees, you know, other things that have happened. And so Stacy is like, listen, I'll buy it. I ain't picking up what you're putting down, fella. And so she starts to get really curious. And Bob's like, you're being ridiculous. This is silly. Well, Stacy decides, I want to see what she's doing during these times when he's saying that she's going to the gym. And so what they did was they looked at the pattern on the text messages from the Verizon phone bill and said, okay, it's mostly these nights. Now, mind you, she's like 12 months pregnant. Okay, like she's going to give birth at any moment. She's like, she's big as a house, like, you know, she's going to the gym because they say that you're supposed to, they want you to be really healthy when you're pregnant, of course. And so she says that she's going to the gym and she's just maintaining a healthy lifestyle, whatever. And so he's just letting her do her thing that she feels is right for the baby and what she feels right for her body. And the doctor said, I need to do this. And, you know, he's like, well, you don't need to go to the gym, like you don't have to work out for like 100 hours. It's fine. She's like, the doctor said, and this is when I get called. So all of the stuff that you've heard up to now is stuff I found out after. So I get a call from Stacy, like I said, and she said, Hey, I want you to do surveillance on this girl and or this guy haven't figured it out yet. But let's start with her and see, is she really going to the gym? Because now it's a pattern. And we're getting close. I think it was a 32 week appointment because we had several weeks of surveillance before she actually gave birth. So she says, Okay, I want you to do surveillance on her. I want to know where she's going. Now at this point, Bob is like, absolutely not. We're not hiring a PI. But Stacy's like, bro, no, really quick, this podcast is brought to you by delete me. If you've been listening to us, you've heard us talk about them. And it's one of our favorite partners because we think it's such a valuable resource. Delete me makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online. And, you know, we're in a time where surveillance and data breaches are very common. Makes everybody vulnerable. Mackenzie knows as a PI that pretty much everything is out there. Delete me allows you to protect your personal privacy or the privacy of your business from doxing attacks, sensitive information being exploited. It is a great first step for seeing what is out there. 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The only way to get 20% off is to go to join delete me.com slash dating detectives and enter code TDD at checkout. That's joined delete me.com slash dating detectives code TDD. So I do a surveillance on her from the house. She goes from the house to the gym and she's walking on the treadmill and she's walking kind of slow, but she's moving. And that's kind of all you can ask for when you're a hundred month pregnant. And if that's what you do when you're not pregnant, I'm proud of you. Right. So I go in the gym. I'm videotaping her. I want to know what she's doing. I'm just videotaping and she's clearly working out. Well, then she gets off the treadmill. She walks outside and I'm like, Oh, I guess she's leaving. Like she's been hurt 30 minutes, like literally 30 minutes on treadmill. She was done. And she walks outside, but she doesn't get into her car. She gets into a different car and this different car belongs to Steve. Steve's in a parking lot of the gym and she gets into his car. I videotape her getting into his car and they're in his car for about 45 minutes. There's window tent. So I do not know what's going on inside that car. It does not take a rocket surgeon, but I can tell you that about 10 minutes after she got into the car, the car starts up and just sits there in the parking lot for several more minutes. So I do, I cannot speak to what happened inside that car. So it turns out that she gets into Steve's car and that's what she did every time she went to the gym. Well, so Adam and Steve, they're professional men. They work nine to five. Well, Steve was saying that he was going to therapy. Oh my God. Steve was excused for an affair I've ever heard. I need it. And here's why he's going to therapy. He tells Adam, he says, I'm struggling with the fact that you had sex outside of our marriage to get pregnant and I want to learn how I can handle this and deal with this issue in a way that I can be supportive of you because I know that I agreed to this, but it is really hard. Totally get that. Oh, totally get that. And he's like, it's sitting in my head that you had sex with this woman and I'm just really struggling with it. So I want to go to therapy. Well, therapy is at the same time homegirls going to the gym. So Bob had never said anything because Bob's a little embarrassed and he's only confided in his sister Stacy, right? Well, Bob decides, all right, I'm going to call Adam. So Bob and Adam get together and he's like, bro, and Adam's like, bro, he's like, bro. And so there's some things off, some things legit. And Adam's like, I'm so glad you messaged me. He said, because that day when Steve texted that in the group chat on accident, he said that after that happened, Steve was panicked and he was not having a good day. Like he was very shaky and he was weird and his mouth was dry. And he was like, I tried to connect with him intimately and I tried to kiss him and he was pulling away from me and just being all weird and just very standoffish. And he's like, and so I thought something was weird, but I didn't want to make you guys feel weird. Because Adam's like, I already feel bad that I had sex with this woman so that we could be parents. And so yeah, it's already weird. It's like, and now he's, they all agreed to it, which is great. But looking back on it, he's like, gosh, like I already kind of feel bad for Steve because I did have to have sex with this woman so we could be parents, which I've all agreed to. You don't know how you're going to feel until it's done. Yeah. So I do the surveillance. I'm paid to just do the surveillance. I'm paid to document what they are doing. And I document this pattern more than once as a pattern. She goes to the gym, she's walking, she goes outside, gets into the car with Steve, who is a gay man. And so. And you do it one time. You only see them one time or you go a few times? No, a few times. Oh, I miss that. Okay. Oh, I'm sorry. So she is, this is over the course of three weeks. Oh my gosh. And this is four different times she goes to the gym, four different times she goes to get in his car, four different times Steve tells Adam he's going to therapy and he's going to meet with his therapist. Did you tell anybody, Stacey, or anyone what you're finding or you don't report back yet? So I told Stacey, I said, give me a few weeks. Now we understand what the pattern is. Give me a few weeks. Let me see what I can find. Stacey's a mediator. So she knows that this is just how it goes. And she trusts us. Now this girl, she's pregnant as can be. And so it's important that we get this information, kind of figure out what's going on. But also now Stacey's worried about, oh God, if we confront her on this, is this going to break? Right. Is this going to stress her out to the point where the baby's going to be unsafe? So Stacey decides that she's not going to share the information that I give her. And I tell, she's my client, not Bob. Right. Like I'm as a private investigator, I am bound by a chapter of four, nine, three, section six, one, one, four, six, seven, I'm not allowed to share anything with anyone except my client. The cops, the lawyer, it doesn't matter. So I tell Stacey what's going on. She decides that she's not going to share it with Bob yet, because she doesn't want anything to happen to the baby. Like she's, she's just telling Bob, like as far as Bob knows, there's no private investigator. There's no nothing. Everything's fine. She's kind of just keeping Bob calm, like kind of keeping the, looks like a duck floating on the water really calm, but underneath her feet are just kicking real fast. And so because she doesn't want, she's concerned obviously about the baby. Like she's the one who's going to have the baby, but she decides she's going to keep it stress free. She's going to wait until the baby is born. And Adam and Bob have decided this is weird, but we're just going to keep adding this baby. This is really weird, but they're also of the same mindset. Like we don't, I don't know. Like we don't have any proof. Like we're not going to do anything to get the proof. And as far as they know, there's no proof gotten. So if you don't, you don't got to prove that. And if you're nine months pregnant and the family's about to have a baby, think about all the other things they're doing all day, it makes sense that you're like, I don't want to deal with blowing up our lives right now. Yeah. So also Adam and Steve are excited about being parents and that's their child. Now mind you, we don't know what's going on in the car with, with Betsy and Steve. Okay. We just, we can assume, like it don't take your rocket surgeon. They're playing. So anyways, so we get to the point where we've waited several weeks. Stacy has said, okay, thank you for the information. I'm obviously, I don't want to do anything right now with it. And that's her choice. Like she, she can hold on to it until she dies. I don't care. Like, you know, that's your choice. You're my client. I will honor whatever it is you want to do. So they have the baby. Okay. The baby is born. The baby is healthy. She gets to 40 weeks. Everything is quiet. I don't hear anything. I'm not, I don't keep up with the job. Like I, what am I supposed to, like, I have to learn to deal with no closure. I don't know what's going on. It's not, it's not my job. Right. So they have the baby, everything's fine. Now we're all healthy and everybody decides that they're going to go back to living their lives. They are the God parents. Like, Betsy and Bob are the God parents. They love, everybody loves this baby, every parent, right? Well, now Stacy comes to me and she's like, Hey, listen, Steve and Adam are doing great. Bob is destroyed because Bob just cannot deal with the fact that he knows that something is going on. He doesn't know what it is and he's struggling. And so she's like, I think I'm going to go ahead and tell him what you found. But before I do, I just want you to do surveillance one more time. I want to see what she's doing now that the baby is here. Yeah, because maybe, maybe there's a world in which they were just doing something to support the pregnancy. And it was just an emotional time. Yeah, maybe they both were just like, we need to talk about our husbands. Yes. Girl. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, that would make sense to me. I know. And like, maybe they were just confiding in one another, right? Like, we don't know what they were doing in that part. Like, maybe they were just getting together. Sometimes you just need event session. Yeah. And like, Steve is gay, y'all. Steve is gay. Yeah. Right. So they waited a couple weeks. She's healed from the pregnancy. And so she says, I want to do another survey. I just, there's just, I want to see something more now that she's not pregnant anymore. There's no reason for them to be as connected as they were. So Stacey goes to Bob and says, listen, I hired this private investigator. This is what she found. Here's the video, right? Of her going, she's working out at the gym, and then she's going into the car and Bob's mad at Stacey, because he's like, I can't believe you did this. And also I can't believe you didn't tell me, and you waited this long. So Bob decides he's going to look at the phone records again. He, Bob thought he was being crazy. He's like, I'm just being absurd. It's okay that they're talking. Steve is gay, number one, number two, Betsy's my wife. Like, we're all in this together. It's fine. If they wanted to connect, and maybe they're just, you know, they just wanted to connect one on one, and that's what they needed. Like, I want to support that. Right. So Bob says, all right, Stacey, you're my sister. I love you. I trust you. Pulls the phone record again. And you have not done this second post birth round of surveillance yet. Correct. Not yet. So Stacey goes to Bob. Bob pulls the phone records again, and apparently they talk all the time. They are calling, they are texting, and they're not doing it on, what if they had been using WhatsApp? Would that still be on the phone records? No. Tap signal. They're all encrypted so nobody can see. And so that's why, like when we did the crypto scam episode, they use WhatsApp because you can't track it. So they're just texting and calling. And so Bob decides he's going to confront Betsy about it. And Bob says, Hey, Betsy, I noticed you've been talking to Steve a lot. And she's like, No, I haven't. What are you talking about? Like, Okay, show me your phone. Okay, genius. So then he says, Yeah, huh. Look at the phone records. And she's like, Oh, that wasn't me. Who was it? The newborn baby? She just straight out tells him. Yeah, that wasn't me. And he's like, This is literally on our phone bill. Betsy gas lights Bob so bad to the point where he no longer believes that she's talking to Steve. Like he's like, I wish I could see what she said. So he goes to Stacy and says, she said, No, it wasn't her. And Stacy's like, bro, she's like, you literally you're seeing this happen in front of your face. And all she says is, No. And you're like, Okay, this is fine. Oh, I feel really bad for Bob because that is so hard to be in that intense intense denial. She's just gone through this thing. Yeah, they have two babies of their own together. And so Stacy's like, whatever, I'm gonna have her followed. And he's like, don't do that. But also, okay, cool. Like, and so now Bob's on board, right? This isn't necessarily relevant. Who's older, Stacy or Bob? Stacy's younger than Bob. The Stacy's, Stacy's a little sister. And she looked and I'm like, I'm not giving up. I'm not stopping sister with my brother's 16 months old. And you're like, I'm a little sister, but I would legit that I would go to jail for him like 100%. Like I would, I would do this. I would hire a investigator too. So Stacy comes to me and says, I do want to do a surveillance. I just want to know more. I have to know more. I want Betsy followed and I want her followed like for a straight week. I want to know what she's doing, where she's going, who she's seeing, because Bob is being gas that he doesn't believe the phone record. Now he feels like he's crazy. So now Bob is like pulling his hair out and Bob is stressed. He's losing weight. Like he feels sick over this because he knows something's wrong, but she's saying, not on, uh, uh, and so he's like, well, Betsy says that that's not true. But she does another surveillance. Well, she tells Bob when I'm doing the surveillance and Bob actually knows to look out for me now. So Bob confronts me on my surveillance. Where are you Betsy at the house on their street? Yeah. So I do, when I do surveillance, like I park with other cars. He doesn't, he doesn't know me from Adam, no pun intended. He doesn't know me from anybody. Like he, but he knew there was a private investigator. So he found the car with the darkest window 10, which don't take a rocket surgeon sometimes, you know, you just kind of spot what cars belong and which cars don't. Anyways, he, he confronts me out on this surveillance. He's like, Hey, are you the one following my wife? And I'm like, I'm sorry, who are you? I'm just the door dasher. Like, I don't know. And he's like, I know what you're doing. And he's like, I don't, I don't know what's happening. Like he, when he spoke to me, it was as if he was in another dimension. Like he didn't believe the words he was saying. He had no confidence in himself. Like he was just, it was so incredible that this man came and talked to me and had, it was like, he was just babbling. And he was so distraught. It was heartbreaking to see. I love the quote. It comes up a lot. You can't see the forest through the trees when all the trees are falling on you at once. At once. Yep. And it's like a fog feeling. And that's exactly how he seemed. And so Bob's devastated. And this is towards the end of my surveillance. And I hadn't seen Betsy do anything yet. Anyways, Bob has something to do the following day. So I tell Stacy, I'm like, listen, you, you got it. Like, you can help me keep up. It's fine. Well, she, she did say that Bob had a couple meetings or whatever he wasn't going to be there. So it's like, all right, this is great. And up to this point, it's like Thursday. I'd been there all week. I hadn't seen her do anything or go anywhere. So I do surveillance on her and sure as the day is long, she goes over to Adam and Steve's house and sure enough, her and gay Steve, who has never been with a woman in his life, are they, she goes, she kisses him and they are like outside, like she goes to walk into the house and he pulls her into him and they're making out in front of the screen door. And I'm just videotaping this like gay Steve is not gay Steve. He is not gay Steve. Yeah, I think he's confused about what gay means. Yeah, because he's not, he's never been with a woman in his life and turns out Betsy is kind of Betsy's boy can Steve and now Adam and Steve have Betsy's baby that they're raising, they're the legal parents of and Steve is cheating on Adam. Gay Steve is cheating on gay Adam. Gay Steve is cheating on bisexual Adam with straight Betsy who was with straight Bob. And reminder of the child. Our charts, mental charts, Betsy had sex with Adam to have the baby and Steve is the other husband and now that's who she's kissing. Yeah, and so now Bob, poor Bob, is like, well now she's, she's got it on with both of them. And so now Bob is like, it's, it's funny because it's like no way. Stranger than fiction. So that it's funny. But also it's diabolical. Like you're, you literally have sex with this man just to get pregnant, which you do and you have sex in multiple days, multiple times over multiple days because it's your ovulation period, your ovulation window. And you, so you get pregnant, which is what you want to do. So you can be a surrogate for your good friends who look at you like a sister. They trust you. They trust you. They're the worst friends. And now not only have you had sex with Adam to get so that you can give him a baby, but now you're having sex with Steve. So are you ready for the kicker? No. Yes. But the baby is not Adam. It's Steve. Oh my God. Yep. What? Because I was just going to say, I want to know when it started. So I assumed it would have started during the pregnancy. Facy tells me, so Stacey comes back and she says, you know, it's so weird. Like I think it's interesting that I wonder if when you're with somebody for so long, you kind of maybe start to look the light because the baby looks a lot like Steve. It's so ironic. And I'm like, Stacey, do you realize what you just said to me? I said, I said, she needs a paternity. She's like, no way, no way, no way. She's denying it the whole time. Like she's like, no way. I can't even, and this had never crossed anybody's mind. Not even, I didn't think about that because I assumed the affair started during the intimacy of being pregnant. Yeah. And so you're thinking like this is no way. Well, Stacey goes to Bob and Bob is like, no way. This cannot be true. So Bob like needs a mental institution now because Bob is losing his ever loving mind. And so Stacey goes to Bob and says, Bob, you need to demand the paternity. Like you need to, and he's like, well, it's not our child. There's nothing we can do. Wiggly, there's nothing they can do. It doesn't matter. Like it's not his baby. It's not her baby. They've already signed a rights. He goes to Adam and Adam says, fuck all of you. I want a paternity test. Okay, good. I thought he was going to say, fuck all of you. I don't like this. Go away. No, no. Get to the bottom of this. Adam says, I want a paternity test and I want it now. Yeah. So he goes, demand a paternity test. Well, it turns out that she was actually having sex with, well, they think that she was having sex with Steve before because he went back in their phone records and found that she was actually texting and calling him individually before they even did the surrogate thing. This is gross. So they end up, Adam and Steve end up getting divorced. Adam's like, fuck you, dude. Yeah. And Steve's like, but you had sex with her and he's like, yeah, but we agreed to this so that we could have, so that we could be parents. And so Steve's like, well, I wanted to have sex with her too, because then we could both be the dads. And he's like, dude, we're already both dads. Like this is how like this, right? And also what? Yeah. Dude, we need to have the birds and the bees talk. Well, Steve justifies it by saying, well, I wanted to be the dad too. So I wanted to have sex with her too. And so it's like, if we both have sex with her, then if neither one of us are the dad, then we're both the dad. Anyways, so it comes down to the fact that Adam and Steve are both the legal parents at this point. Adam says, screw you, I'm out divorcing them. They end up with split custody. So it's 50-50. Like in the state of Florida, the judge always wants to, most of the time the judge wants to do equal as possible, like 50-50. And so they both have, I don't know how they changed it legally in the courts or if they changed the legal who the daddy is or whatever. I mean, 50-50. 50-50. 50-50. 50-50. I mean, they were going up for the sake of the child, the actual biological paternity shouldn't matter. But either way, Adam and Steve are the parents of this child. Period. Bottom line, end of story, they are the parents. It doesn't matter who the daddy is, because they're both boys, they're both the daddy. It's whatever. Right? And so I don't know how they change that like legally. And that kind of stuff when it involves a child is kind of locked down pretty tight. So it's not something I really dug into. I hope that it's as painless and possible for this child. But Betsy and Bob, however, she tells Bob the same thing that Steve told Adam was that I didn't want one to feel left out and being the dad. So I wanted to make sure that they both felt like they were the dad. So I just had sex with them both. And that's reasonable, right? And you're being so dramatic. And you're being so dramatic. Like this is stupid. Yeah. And so Bob's losing his mind. Like he thinks that he's the crazy one because he's like, you're like, yeah, I'm stupid, I guess. And the whole time she's telling him, well, that's not, I wasn't calling and texting him. And yeah, like it's literally, y'all Verizon don't mess around. Maybe they put everything on the phone bill. Even if it wasn't, you watched them lie about where they were going. Yeah. And you literally had proof. Now, I will say that I never got any video photo evidence that they were boinkin that they had sex. All I saw was them kissing when they, when she walked into the house and they were behind the screen door and I got video of them kissing. And I saw her get into his car at the gym those three different times. Well, you can observe and report and I have drawn my conclusions and I'm going to stick with them. Yeah. So now the grand finale, just because you're, I, before I wanted to look, so I researched, like who is married, who isn't. I'm so grateful. Everybody is divorced. Thank you. Everybody is divorced. Adam and Steve are divorced. Betsy and Bob are divorced. Stacy is happily married. Well, yeah. Nobody, I mean, she didn't marry anyone without a full background check and 100% trusting them. But I would like to say, I would like to shout out Stacy who is brave enough to say something is wrong. I need to look into this and I need to look out for my brother. And I know he's going to be pissed at me. So, I mean, this happens all the time with like mental health or getting someone help in whatever capacity and they don't want it. And I know it can be hard and I think it's case by case, but I am proud of what she did because this child is like, what, it's not a good home to grow up in. You just, One where everybody's sneaking around and cheating behind your back. Like, yes, it sucks to be divorced, but it also sucks to be fully betrayed. It almost seems like after they consented to this situation, after the deed was done, which they all enthusiastically consented to according to every single party, after the deed was done, it almost seems like Bob felt left out. Steve felt left out. And then once Betsy and Steve were together, then Adam and Bob were feeling left out because then it was like, well, what's going on with Betsy? So now Betsy has had sex with every single one of these men from what we understand. And what, like, can you not honestly? And so now her and Bob are divorced and yeah, you earned money, like they paid you so that you could have this child for them or whatever, which is great. But now you've got, it's just so much betrayal. And Adam is destroyed because he thought he was like, it's almost like, well, Adam got to have sex with her. Like he got to step out. Like, so do I. It's like, honey, we didn't think you wanted that first of all. Yeah. Oh, I will let you know that Bob has moved on since then. He has a lot of him and his children on his social media. He seems happy. He has a girlfriend as far as this is just based on social media, obviously social media, the internet ain't real. So you never know how happy he actually is. But according to his current social media, he appears to be genuinely happy and has a new girlfriend and he has pictures of him and his kids. So good for him. If he is genuinely happy, Stacy's happily married. She's got her young ends. Betsy is single. Steve is single and Adam is single as far as I can tell. I don't even, first of all, can I just say last night Mackenzie was like, I don't know if I have a good story. And I'm just dying because this is, I know it's a hard story, but this is a wild, wild story. Also, it's, you guys have to understand like, okay, I've been a PI for 20 years. This is 20 years worth of stuff when you're doing surveillance and you're like, oh, yep, another day at the office. All right, going home now. And you don't realize that there's a lot of intensity to these stories because this is just, you become numb to it. And so I was like, I don't know. Like I don't really have any good stories that are, because we want to tell a story that's like entertaining, obviously, like we want a good podcast. Like we want people to be like, oh man, that was a crazy story. Right. It also makes you learn more when it's interesting. Yeah, we're here to share like interesting stories, but also it's, it feels so sensationalized as you tell it that it almost seems it's stranger than fiction. And so it's so easy for people to kind of not realize that this stuff actually happens. And people hire private investigators because they, you know, private investigators, we really see people will, it's amazing what people do when they think no one's watching. And at the end of the day, this stuff really happens and everybody thinks, oh, that's crazy. That don't ever happen to me. Yes, it will. That's when you're vulnerable. So you kind of almost, I hate to say it, but trust but verify, trust but verify. Like I just, it's kind of why I don't trust anybody because this is my life has been following these cases where people just don't tell the truth. And I don't want to be someone who's like, don't trust anybody, but also like, so that's why I kind of hesitate to share these stories because it's like, yeah, you don't want to leave people with, I don't want people to be like, well, I can't trust anybody, but it's hard. There's, both things can be true. You can find wonderful community and also keep your head on a so-called. Yeah. And also just don't think that, oh, well, he's gay, so that'll never happen. Or like when she says, when a guy says, oh, I'm really insecure about you hanging out with him and you're like, yeah, but he's gay. Like, well, now we know that, that's not always the solution. It's also so hard like being by being in the community, seeing stories where people take advantage of the excuse or the identity in order to portray people. There's bad people in every community, every group of people. There's dogfish everywhere. And it's not fun to hear these stories because you're like, I don't claim him, but- And I also want to say- They're there. Another reason that I hesitate sharing these stories or that I don't want, like I don't take, like joy in sharing these is because this is a really beautiful situation. Like this can be a really, really beautiful situation where someone sacrifices a part of their body to help other people become parents. Like see beyond friends. Yeah. And so that can be a really beautiful situation. And it has been, I am certain there have been hundreds of thousands of success stories of this. Like there's got to be a ton of people that have successfully been a surrogate for someone else. They have given someone the gift of being a parent, which by the way is the greatest, my son is the greatest gift I have ever been given. I'm so grateful for him. And if you are gay, and those opportunities may be seen a little further away for you. So when someone is willing to give you this, like I think that's an incredible story. So I never want it to, like I never want to dissuade someone from pursuing that. Right. But if this helps someone do a little due diligence and trust their gut when they're in that situation, Mackenzie, think about the difference that makes. And just, and but it just seems like at first like you're like, oh, that's so wonderful that they come together. Right. And then just to see how it all kind of happened. I knew what setting we were in. I had, I had my doubts. But I did, I do agree. Yeah, there is a world in which this is a beautiful, beautiful thing. I never want to destroy anybody's idea of this beautiful gift. Like this isn't, I'm imagining this isn't a standard, like everybody cheats situation, but the same thing. We tell a lot of stories about marriages that don't go well. We still know that marriage can be beautiful. Yeah, of course. And so I just, I guess I just don't, I don't know, I don't want to, you know, shit on anybody's party. Like, you know, it can be beautiful. That's the end Steve did that all on their own. Yeah. And now, and now this poor baby that was made from love initially from these four people who agreed that they wanted these two men to be able to be parents to a child. Now this child is here. And because of your, I don't know, a little bit of selfishness maybe, like a little bit of not really your lack of consideration. And now you've affected this child ultimately. The whole, the whole life, the life of everyone involved and the other children. It's so sad. I'm thinking about Adam because not only is it just terrible to be cheated on, but what a unique scenario for him to be going through the vulnerability of having sex with a woman just to have a baby. That's not a common scenario. And then to have it thrown in your face and then, and then to have it thrown in your face and being used against you as the reason for your spouse to cheat on you because you, but it was like, no, dude, we agreed to do this. This is something we agreed on. Yeah, this wasn't, honestly, a sacrifice for him. I know somebody might be like, oh, he got double sex, but like, no, I think a good person would be like, I know this is vulnerable and unique and weird and challenging. But we did this together. We agreed on this fella. Like you can't then say, well, you did this to me. So now I'm going to, like, that's not really fair. I wish, and obviously we won't because everybody's anonymous, but I almost wish we could connect the guests who went through the scenario where her OBGYN had an affair with her wife while our guest was the one giving birth. Because that's another, like the context of being pregnant or being, or expecting a child, being where you're dealing with the cheating scenario adds just another layer of emotion that I can't, like there's got to be a small, but very good support group because that is very unique. I'm just devastated for him. Yeah. And imagine, number one, how hard it is to be, I can't even imagine how hard it is to be a gay man, to be a gay person because there's just so, there's just so much, like there's a lot of hatred still surrounding it. Like it's not, it's still not as widely accepted as it should be. So being gay or being bisexual already is hard, not to mention- I'm not sure when your husband's like, I didn't think this was real. Yeah. But I guess you could be bi. I guess so maybe. So there's, that's already hard. And then realizing that you're gay, but you also want children and then finding someone that's willing to give you this gift just to be, you know, just to be kind of slapped in the face. It just kind of sucks the whole thing. And so really, but I'm curious to know what our audience thinks. Like, do you blame Betsy for, you know, do you blame, like, do you blame her? It's like, yeah, she cheated. I was gonna say, are you asking me because yes. Did Steve cheat? Yeah. Did Adam cheat? No, of course. I mean, in my opinion, I don't think Adam cheated. No, I cheated. He's a betrayal. Cheating is lying. And there was no lying on his end. Also, if you put yourself in this position where you're going to have sex with someone else to get, to get, someone might, might argue, well, he did put himself in that position to have sex with someone else. So of course Steve is going to feel some type of way. Yeah. And Steve can talk about it like an adult. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And so, no, you're absolutely right. So it's kind of, I'm curious to know, like, if anybody has a differing opinion or, you know, who they kind of feel the most empathy for. Yeah. I'm also curious, I would love to put out, this is me being the romantic, stories, if you have had a successful surrogacy situation that is healthy and beautiful, and you've found a way to incorporate it in a way that the children and everyone involved are getting everything they want out of it and being heard, send it to me. I will read it on a Patreon episode so that we can remember that love is real. Love is real. Yeah, especially if you're queer and found a way to work through it. If you, I mean, you don't have to share, I know that's very personal, but if you did go the same route as them and get a friend to, you know. I would love to know other surrogacy stories that you did not take the medical route where you kind of took it upon yourself to pursue a pregnancy or to pursue parenthood. I would like to know if anybody experienced that. And if you would have done things differently or how that affected your partnership with your spouse or whatever, I would love to know. That would be so good because we try to give- I would love to hear success stories of that. Yeah. And even horror stories if you have one, but I'd love to know how other people have experienced that. Yeah. I feel like a lot of our show- It's a unique situation. Very. And there's not a lot of information about it, like super public, I'm sure if you dig there is, but like our show is often trying to take from these stories, what we can learn, we have not been in that experience. If you have and you feel like there's information you wish was more public, hey, we've got two microphones. Who do you think was the dogfish in the story? I think Steven. I think Steeve. I think Steeve and Betsy. I think Betsy was the cheater. I think Steeve was the dogfish. Yeah, but a cheater is a dogfish. Yeah. But I think- She was saying that she was Steve. Not doing what she was saying. She was on the track all the whole time. I think Steeve ultimately was the ultimate dogfish. He was a double dogfish. She was a double dogfish. He was gay, but then bisexual. So he was like not gay, but then he was cheating. I think- I'm not going to say he's bi because who knows, but he's whatever the fuck he is. Yeah, whatever the titles are. I don't know what you're all about. It's like, he's lying. Yeah. And so yeah, I think him and Betsy for sure. By the way, I wanted to tell you, as I was doing my research before I told this story, there is a civil suit that Betsy has against Stacey. And it hasn't- It's in process. She's filed the suit. It has not gone to court yet. And you don't know what it's about. I have no idea yet. But nobody's reached out to you, so it could be something entirely different. Yeah. And so I think I'm going to- But I kind of want to keep finding out. It's public knowledge. It's public information. I will buy you an ice cream cone if you promise to report back. I do love snacks. Let's go. But I'll have to keep an eye on that because I would love to do a follow-up and see what the civil suit is. Please, please, everyone tell us your thoughts. If you knew where this was going at the beginning. If you also were squirming in your chair and thinking about throwing things across the room because that's kind of what I was going through. What was your WTF moment? That Steve was the father. I actually did not think that. I really thought that it had started while she was pregnant. Yeah. You would think that it was Adam because that's who she was. Because that's why. Now I'm like, why was Steve's agreeing to Adam? I mean, I get he's saying he's gay. He doesn't want to have sex with him and he's not going to blow his cover. Yeah. But it seems so strange to me that he and Adam had that conversation and we're like, yeah, Steve was like, this is a good idea. Let's get my husband to have sex with the woman I'm having an affair with and tie her to us for the rest of our lives. Maybe because he thought it would be easy to keep the affair going. I think that Betsy and Steve came up with this idea together. But I think that Steve was like, you should get Adam to do it because it makes more sense because he's fine. And then they'll never suspect me because I'm gay. And if I say that I'm not gay, then I'll look like a big fat liar, which you came out with. And it'll seem like I want to have sex with you, which we can't seem like because I do. That's what it seems like. I feel like they were intimately connected before and they had come up with that together. Well, it's diabolical either way, right? It's crazy. I'm so mad at them. I'm so mad at them. And Karma is getting and I really do hope. Oh, yeah. That's the other thing. The gym and the therapy excuses come on. And for her. Okay. And also, and also I bet so many people have been like, oh my God, that's me too. When someone says like, just for instance, my nephew, Jake, right? When he was, he's like 14 now, but when he was younger, he would like punch my other nephew, his big brother, Mikey, his big brother, Mike, he would punch him. And then I would see him do it and be like, Jake, why'd you do that? And he'd be like, do what? I didn't do that. And I'm like, no, for real, bro. I literally just saw you. He's like, nah. And I was like, bro, I literally just saw you. He's like, no, and he would go to his grave denying. And that's exactly what Betsy did when Bob Gander was like, yo, these phone bills. And she's like, no, what me? I don't have a phone. And I want how how many of us have like, I'm sure there's a time when you look back and gone, oh, maybe I'm crazy. And you just don't realize that like, you're like, you're literally that's that's gaslighting. It's that's gaslighting when and you you're like, gosh, maybe I'm crazy. And I think it's not a foolproof solution. Writing a lot down can help you review your own thoughts and your own reality, because it's so easy to lose trust in yourself. But when you write it down, it's like, no, I literally wrote this, I remember that happen. I even wrote it down. I do it even when I'm like, I don't know how I'm feeling about a situation. Sometimes I'll look back and realize that I've been writing the same negative feeling over the course of a couple months. And you can see, and you're like, wait, this is a persistent thing. And you don't even remember. And that's just in my own head. Imagine when someone else's gaslight. Yeah. Yeah. So everyone get your journals out. Go journal. And just check in with yourself, your community. Stacey, let us know what you think of Stacey. I think it's totally fair to think maybe she overstepped. I am kind of pro Stacey, but it's to each their own. And I hope Bob's okay. And I hope the kids are all okay. I appreciate you, Stacey. So but curious to know what you guys think and what your WTF moment was. And if you like, did you think it was Steve at all? And I was just like, Oh, Steve's gay. So for sure it's not him. Wait, I actually, can we make that a thing? I love that from now on, every episode on social or on the WTF moment, you can like literally leave a comment and just say my WTF moment and then tell us what it is because that's a fun way to track how people are doing. Also maybe put spoiler in front because we don't want other people to see it. Yeah, but definitely like what was your WTF moment? Yeah, I need to know. Thank you guys for listening and sharing these stories with us. And please know, I know a little bit of that might have been triggering, especially if you've been in a situation like this, but it's real and it happens. And so please share with us if you have your own story, please just email us, investigate at the dating detectives podcast.com. And our socials, a lot of you talk there, which is amazing. I will add that page. Yeah, your engagement is really cool. I was just gonna say like the community on Patreon is kind of next level. If you do want to talk through the links about any episode, I love how you guys support each other there. So $5 a month and we have book club coming up on the 18th and we're reading the book called Pretty Things. And if you don't want any ads, you can do $9 a month and get everything on Patreon plus no ads. And always you guys, as Stacy taught us today, as always, press your fan tuition. Mackenzie, you're the best storyteller. Thank you. I love you.