E1122 - Blake & Justin Settle, Jessi's Leaked DM's w/ Emily D Bake, Tom Schwartz Talks SH, Valley And Love!

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We got a great episode for you, a lot going on in the world of, well, in our world of pop culture. Reality TV. Worlds are colliding. Reality TV stars are stars, as evident by Vulture magazine, or more importantly, the Metcala. On the same day, Vulture magazine highlighted a bunch of, well, it really was just a focus on reality TV stars, talking about how it used to be. People were talking about all those HBO Sunday night shows and that would be the water cooler talk. Now it's really just your favorite reality TV stars and shows are really entering the zeitgeist of real celebrity, which is, you know, it's cool. I've been in this space for, I don't know, long time. Honestly, it's fun to, like, it's nice not to always be the butt of the joke. It is nice to get a little credibility in the space that we operate so much. But on the same day that the release of that Vulture piece, which, go check it out, I was very flattered to be included in a really great cast. But I think it more than just the people recognized, like obviously Andy Cohen and Kathy Hilton, Lindsay Hubbard, Jesse Draper, a really just, I think it was really about a celebration of all reality TV stars. And honestly, like, you know, I'm not saying I'm silly to say the work they put in, but just really the vulnerability and just like really sacrificing their lives in some ways, some more than others. But on the same day we have the Met Gala. And I feel like, I don't know, maybe the previous years, but we had Sierra Miller, we had Brawin there, any other, I mean, that's two, I mean, two more than I feel like any other, was Arianna Maddox there? No, did you see also that allegedly Alandria was invited to the Met Gala and then uninvited? Wait, I thought she was going. And then uninvited like day of like she didn't show. Well, the makeup artist like posted a whole thing being like, we prepped all the stuff, but like nothing happened and she wasn't there. So like speculation is that she was uninvited or something happened. No way. I know. Like she was done dirty as the speculation. I do. I do know there are a lot of people who chose not to go to the Met Gala this year. But she wouldn't that wouldn't have been like the makeup artist and everybody was there. I mean, like it's someone is someone who is I'm not your like typical Met Gala fan, so to speak. But ever since I became aware of its existence, and that was a long time ago, as a reality TV star, and you see these like major celebrities go to this like what seems to be this really cool party. I don't know if it's actually cool, but like it feels cool. It seems cool. Exclusive. Exclusive. And as someone in my position, it's hard not to be like, I wonder if I could ever like get invited to something like this. You know, it seems it always felt like something unobtainable. Yeah. For someone in my shoes. And it probably still is, frankly, for someone for me. But people in our space, it's become like, it's a realistic opportunity, which is I think really fascinating and cool. Well, you know, what's interesting is when influencers were invited to the Met Gala, Aula, James Charles, Liza Koshy, like they got a lot of heat because they're like why are influencers here? Pioneers. But then like the reality TV stars that are there, nobody's questioning it. They're just like they've elevated past. Well, yeah, because I think again, I think those those influencers call, you know, we're all part of the same space. Yeah, influencers are at TV stars. It's kind of like this kind of lower celebrity of like someone call us tantalists. Well, it's like higher, high and low art, whatever, whatever. Yeah. But it's I think it's kind of cool and fascinating to have Rowan and Sierra Miller there. And I the Elandria is like, we don't know much about it. It was all it's all coming through the makeup artist. If I could pick one reality TV star that would seamlessly fit into that crowd would be Elandria. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she has been so like she's been diving headfirst into all of this fashion stuff. And she's so good at it. And she's so good at it. It makes complete sense for her to be there. And unlike most reality TV stars who feel like we have to lead with our mess, our vulnerability, our like kind of we almost have to really kind of give of ourselves. Elandria has done it in more of a traditional celebrity path where it's just more like the mystery of her. Well, Nick Van Steenberg, who is I guess still dating Elandria, I don't know, anyways, but he was part of the vulture piece, the vulture piece. And kind of came out being like, hey, I flew to New York. I like stood there half undressed, which why worry a lot of y'all undressed? Was that a plan? People got mad that I had my shoes off. I was going to ask about the dogs being out. Honestly, it was funny about that reaction. It felt very like, no, I'm still a reality TV star because like the way reality TV stars get blamed for shit that's not like they're like, yeah, fine, fuck it. I'll do it. Right. You know, oh, I didn't think it was your choice to go in there without shoes. I thought it was cute. That was like yours. And people are like, like, speaking to me is if I was like, I walked in without shoes and said, I'm not wearing shoes today. Fuck you. It's because they also saw yours and Lindsay Hubbard's where she was in a full dress and didn't see the rest of the photos where the whole point in the theme was like undressed Hollywood. Ask like, is that what it was? It's like the vulnerability and the loneliness. But it was like, there was no tie and it was kind of half unbuttoned and it was like, do you want to go no shirt? I was like, I'm not no shirt shape kind of. And then they were like, well, then I was like my shoes off and I was like my wiki feet. I got like, I'm like a 4.9. So I was like, yeah, I'm still in good feet shape. Yeah. Well, Nick came out and basically gave this statement. Do we have it? Justin? Yeah. Well, so in his Vulture article, he basically said, smile and shake my hand and then write some shit like that question mark. That's what he said in response to it. And like the points that stood out was it was the wording that the use in certain parts of his article where they said the king of those clips was Nick Van Steenberg. The baffled mind behind the inscapable mommy, mama, sitamim stemming from his utter inability to process the idea that his co-star hood and Mustafa is the mother of a child. There was another part where basically said Van Steenberg is now pursuing that the most tried and true reality side hustle DJ for hire. Like they were just using a lot of different words by the middle of the season. The fandom had coalesced around painting him with co-star Alandra. Never mind that they didn't seem to more than friendly colleagues efforts. Like they're just using a lot of different words that are like... Well, you know, it's funny though. It's like I... Critical? When they wrote about me, they reminded me and the audience that some people over the years and throughout my life have viewed me at times as condescending. Oh. Fair. Working on it, obviously always trying to be like self-aware of myself, but I also find it funny because when I read these pieces even about myself or my peers, the people who watch or listen, it's like I've never read anything about myself that didn't felt condescending towards me where it's as always like, you like them, but you hate them. It's just like... Yeah. Well, it's also you're reading it from a writer who's trying to bring in multiple different aspects about a person and has an angle, not in a good or bad way. It's just like the reality. And when you're being interviewed by your more traditional journalists, they're having this kind of journalistic approach where it's just like trying to figure us out. It's David Attenborough. Not necessarily wanting to give us the benefit of the doubt, but kind of reluctantly doing it. So it's like, yeah, reading that stuff about Nick, it's like there's always like a dig with every compliment sometimes. But again, listen, we're not quite there yet. It's still a process. We are still working to be accepted. I think it's the cheekiness is the way to put it. I think he was caught off guard like, oh, well, that's the way he wrote it. Okay. Yeah, I feel like, okay, I guess, like, sure. Thanks. I wonder what you guys think about this, because I feel like the beauty of reality TV stars kind of entering into mainstream pop culture in this way is that with a lot of celebrities, there is this aspect of everything needs to be taken seriously. Everything is very like pristine prestige. And then with, which is kind of like the high low art, whatever, like it's this high art, but then like the reality is it's all the same. And it's all entertainment. And so, and fun stuff is fun stuff. So when you get reality TV stars in here, there's this kind of like cheekiness to everything because it's this self aware aspect of the way you're writing. And it's like, we know this is typically your whatever trash TV, but it's awesome. And people love it. And these people are very talented at what they do. So it creates this like interesting kind of. Yeah, we have a long way to go because again, like the way, the way we're like influencers and reality TV stars are recognized is again, through that vulnerability. And like through that vulnerability, I think fans see that as like an open door to critique, criticize, judge, which is interesting because I think you're more traditional celebrities. Like for example, we have Jay Ellis on the show that was on yesterday, a fascinating guy, very talented actor. He's on Running Point. He's a lot of great stuff. It's all her fall, Topkin too. And you know, Jay coming in here again, like sometimes when we have someone like Jay on, it's always like, man, I wonder how much he wants to open up. Does he just want to talk about his project? And it's always like, I'm always like unsure. But I do think people like Jay or other more traditional celebrities are now seeing that like for people to kind of get to know you and follow your career, you do, you know, the you have to open up, you have to like talk about like, you have to endear yourself like the Paris audience, because that Paris social relationship matters more than it did like 20 years ago, you could be an actor, you know, a celebrity, you could show up, do your press tours in between your movie that you do once or twice a year, they would only see that they don't see these clips and you would only just be that mystery. And that that is very difficult, I think, in the grand scheme of things for most celebrities to be recognized. And now what does celebrity mean? There's everything is niche, you know, and things like that. So you're now seeing a lot of more traditional celebrities try to when they're doing press, like, be willing to open up doing more podcast or talking about things in their lives, their concerns, parenthood, you know, insecurities and things like that. So it's all kind of fascinating the way it is all coming together. Going back to the Met Gala, I read that there's like, obviously, so many rules. And like, we've known that there's no phones allowed for some time, obviously, there's like the iconic bathroom photos. But there's also they don't see you with your partner, because they want to like, encourage new conversations, like church kind of, yeah. You know, sharing the peace. Yeah, peace. Yeah. That's a good name. Peace be with you. I haven't been in church in a minute. They also don't serve with their food. They don't serve garlic or onion, obviously, they don't want anyone to have bad breath. They also don't put any small herbs or green onion, because they don't want anyone to get anything in their teeth. Guess they don't serve Oreos either. Is this all confirmed? I'm not denying you. This is very fascinating. Are these rumors or? This wasn't like some blogger that posted. It was like an actual, I don't remember. I believe it. I'm just intrigued by this. Yeah. And then it was like, obviously, there's no smoking. There's like this iconic photo of. Well, there's a smoking section. That's why. Someone, maybe Bella Hadid or someone, I don't know, someone like smoking in the bathroom and like, everyone's sitting around them. You get like the smallest amount of time with Anna Wintour, and every guest gets it, and it's at the top of the stairs. She like greets everyone. Yeah. And that's like your one moment with Anna Wintour. Is she still doing that? Yeah. I think so. She interestingly wore the same, basically the same dress, different color that she wore. She's always done that though. And it doesn't come in the dress code like super. I mean, no, does anyone. I love that. You love that? This is her whole, what do you mean? She's not even gonna. But she's paid, but she's not. It's very much like, I'm not like you guys. I'm. You know what I mean? She's the stylist. It's like dance monkey dance. I'm gonna make you wear some weird shit, but I'm just gonna count. Yeah, and I'm just gonna look chic as fuck. She does participate, but yeah, it's not to the same level of like. You know who was at the Met Gala? Who? Blake Lively. She was. I was honestly surprised. I was surprised this year. Well, on the heels, on the same day that was announced to, you know, and we do have Emily D Baker joining us momentarily to help us break down because what was also announced yesterday is that there was to my big, big surprise because I honestly thought this was gonna go to court that Blake Lively and Justin Bell only settled their case. Now I imagine like everyone out there, everyone, what does that mean? I don't know. I purposefully did not read one article. I said, you know what? I'm gonna hear it from the smartest person I know. Yeah, same Emily D Baker. What does it mean for a settlement? It was Blake suing Justin. I know they both sued each other, but that his court case has dropped. But we have Emily D Baker momentarily to help us break this down. What does it all mean? But it is fascinating and interesting to see, like on that same day, it seems like Blake is ready to move forward with her life. Get back out there. Put this all behind her. You know, and I'm sure her critics will say one thing, her supporters will say another. I am very curious about what we can take away from what this settlement, if anything. And we do have Emily D Baker joining us in just a moment. We also have Tom sports with us following Emily Baker to catch up with him. We got the Valley. He is now a member of the Valley cast and the season is kind of it's it's getting it's getting going. We're getting we're getting somewhere. I am curious his thoughts on the summer house of it all. He is adjacently connected, obviously being a figure of Scandival. But I honestly am more interested in like kind of again, that parasocial relationship. And when it comes to this stuff, you know, knowing how TV shows are made is specifically Bravo. I always think there's like an element that we as fans are not privy to in terms of how much do these stars have to like keep their mouth shut about certain things in production that may or may not somehow lead to the decisions that are made in the sense that like we have sports on the Valley kind of loosely flirting with Michelle. A little bit more than his friend, Jesse Lollie, his ex wife, kind of giving kind of summer house coded, but like, honest, Jesse doesn't seem to mind. But also like would this happen organically or is it happening because they're all part of the same cast and like like in high school, you roam in these small groups and then like because of the proximity, it's like, well, I mean, you're here and you're single. And I guess I don't even know you're you were married to my friend. And I'm just curious how much if anything that that sometimes lead to these decisions in these conflicts and drama that we're getting from the summer house scandal. So I'm looking forward to catch up with Tom. Anyways, Emily D Baker is ready. She's ready to go. She she's here. So let's get to Emily Baker. Before we get to Emily D Baker, just want to remind you that vile files plus is ad free. 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Brodo was launched by James Beard, award-winning chef Marco Canara 11 years ago. He started serving bone broth out of a window in his New York City restaurant. Now, Brodo ships nationwide, so you don't have to be in New York City to enjoy chef Marco's masterpiece. They have about 10 grams of whole food protein along with collagen-building amino acids, electrolytes, and nutrients to support gut health, immunity, joints, skin, and general wellness all under 50 calories and with zero sugar or fat. Shop the best broth on the planet with Brodo. Head to brodo.com slash v-i-a-l-l for 20% off your first subscription order and use code V-i-a-l-l for an additional $10 off. Once again, that's brodo.com slash v-i-a-l-l for 20% off your first subscription order and an additional $10 off if you use our promo code V-i-a-l-l. Emily, welcome to the show. Welcome back. Welcome back. It's so good to see you all. Lots of law been going on lately. I know. It's great to be here. Lots of law going on, and we very much appreciate you being our... We'll call you our unofficial legal correspondent, but maybe we can call you our official... We'll make it official one of these days. We are so appreciative of you and what you do, Emily, and it's so... Our audience loves you. It's always fascinating and interesting to get your legal perspective as someone who's also just a fan of the same things that we're a fan of. But as we talked about before you joined the show, Justin and Blake Lively, I don't know if they announced it, but it was announced that they had settled just right before their court case was scheduled to go to court, I think, in May. So, we were kind of... It seemed like just a few weeks away. There was that old saying that deadline spur action. It seems like maybe that played a role in this as well. I think a lot of people were surprised on both sides. Myself included. I really thought this would go to court. I felt like Blake seemed determined to really see this thing through, but to... Maybe everyone's surprised they had decided to settle. And I think now a lot of people who have followed this case almost feel a little like... I hate to say disappointed because they had followed it so much. And when it comes to a settlement, it's like, hey, we settled. It's over. And then it's like, well, what did you settle on? What does that mean? Did someone win? Did someone not win? I feel like everyone's claiming victory, depending on what side they kind of fell on. But could you give us a little insight into what this all means from a legal standpoint? And what can we take or learn, if anything, from this announcement of their settlement? I love a good what if anything. It's difficult with settlements because it does feel like everything comes to a screeching halt because we're not behind the scenes. We don't see how much the lawyers are discussing, negotiating. We don't know how long they've been talking. But we do know that when Judge Lyman posted his 100 and almost 50 page order on the motions for summary judgment, it did give everyone an off-ramp. He didn't hold back on how he saw the evidence and how he saw the case. And it gives the lawyers new footing to go talk to the parties and say, look, this is what we're actually looking at for trial. And candidly, the conversation of how much that will actually cost, which is going to be possibly tens of millions of dollars total. So not only are you looking at what's going to come out at trial realistically now that they know what the shape of the evidence is, but they know how much it's going to cost. And that can bring people to the table and give them an off-ramp in a different way. And then it probably took quite a lot of legal wrangling back and forth with the lawyers to get a joint statement out because these parties have been so at odds for so long, trying to put out any type of agreed statement with the lawyers is a really difficult and deeply negotiated thing. Because we're probably not going to hear any more about this case from any of the parties, from any official sources, from the lawyers, because that settlement agreement's going to have NDAs. And those NDAs are going to have monetary amounts if they're violated. If it's violated, that money damages, that money amount just snaps right into place. But they haven't filed notice of settlement with the court yet. So if the judge woke up this morning and is like, I hear we don't have a trial, where is the filing on the docket? It's not on the docket yet. I expect we'll see that sometime today, but it's still not there. And other things were filed yesterday, Monday, May 4th. So I'm waiting to see the official notice of settlement. I'm waiting to see how long they ask for. Sometimes parties need time to get the terms of the settlement executed, that can be exchanging money, that can be exchanging documents, that can be all kinds of things. But if they don't need that period of time, it might mean that this is just a mutual walk away where everybody says, I will not sue you over anything. I will not continue to sue you over anything. We're all going our own directions. This is the mutual statement, done, done. So there's a world where the settlement means almost like everyone just like agreed to say, you know what, just kidding. Yes. That's wild. I don't feel like... There is a world where everybody just put it, said, we're not going to sue you anymore. We're not going to resume suing you. Everything that happened, no one's going to sue anymore over anything. We're never going to talk about it again. Keep your name out of my mouth and walk away. That's possible. Is it also... And then what are the other possibilities, I guess? Like my non-legal sense is more like, I was on the impression, okay, so it was Blake suing Justin. Justin was suing Blake in the past, but that was dismissed. So his case against her was thrown out or whatever. And then part of her case was also dismissed, but she's still... Which I always consider the most important part of this case was the retaliation. That was the thing I was most fascinated by, because as someone who, in a way, operates in the space, the way you're seeing bots and the way discourse, it seems to be influenced online, I feel like this is a real thing. It's a dangerous thing that involves everything. And I was really fascinated by that. Is there a world where Justin's side did agree to pay Blake's side a certain amount of money because they thought, okay, well, you know what, this will cost us less in the long run and we'll disagree. Is there any... And is there also any world where Blake did have to pay Justin some money? There is a world where money could have exchanged hands. I don't know if either party would have been amenable to that with how negotiated this settlement agreement is, but there's a world where that happened because at the end of the day, Blake Lively had to stop her lawsuit. She has to file the motion to dismiss. His has already been dismissed. Though I guarantee you, in a settlement, they're going to agree that he, the PR company, and his companies aren't going to bring any further lawsuits against Blake Lively, any of her companies, and probably Ryan Reynolds as well, since he had originally been sued by Baldony and those parties. And the decision maker in this is Wayfarer. And yes, Baldony is a part owner of Wayfarer, but that company was the only defendant left in addition to the PR. So Baldony had already really been removed from the suit as a individual given the way that the court ruled on the motion for summary judgment. So Wayfarer had to make those agreements to walk away. So technically, it would be, yes, the company Wayfarer could have paid Lively. Yes, Lively could have paid the company, though more unusual for the party suing to pay to settle once they're in litigation, because the massive benefit from the party suing is withdrawing that lawsuit and not going to trial. Then again, defendants also have to agree to settle. But one of the interesting parts of that could be whether or not Wayfarer was operating partly through their insurance, because insurance companies can have a lot of very strong opinions about whether something's going to trial or not and whether a settlement agreement will be accepted. So if the company's operating through some of their errors in emissions or liability insurance, insurance could have also had a hand in encouraging the company to settle once, of course, the plaintiff Lively was willing to also settle. So if I'm, I want to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying. So let's say they had the evidence that was kind of laid out like you said, and no doubt Wayfarer and they all have insurance and assuming Wayfarer's insurance provider was like, yo, we think, you know, based on what we're coming up with, you're at risk of owing this much, which sounds like it's going to, we're going to have to write that check to a certain amount. So could the insurance company encourage Justin to settle and say, we'll pay you this much. So go ahead and settle this case. And if you want to just have us handle it, because maybe the insurance company is thinking this will save us money and then encouraging Justin to, and his team and Wayfarer or whatever to settle because, you know, they're letting them know what their limits are, so to speak. Could, could absolutely be involved in that decision making process if they are also covering part of the cost of the litigation. So yeah, insurance companies, if you think of it in context of a car accident, like litigation and your car insurance is like, okay, well, we'll pay for this, but we also can make the agreement to settle this. It's not dissimilar. It's just a much larger scale where insurance can be involved in those decisions. I don't know if that happened here because we've seen privately retained counsel clearly, but it is possible that that is one of the other things running in the background that's not really largely being accounted for in the conversation is that right now the last defendant standing are companies and those companies are going to have insurance companies looking at them going, this is a good settlement offer. Figure out whatever the joint statement is and we're going to be done. And honestly, a lot of people I'm sure are going to wonder why did we have to get up to the eve of trial, like jurors were coming in next week for jury selection, because we don't know what evidence is actually going to trial until those last evidentiary rulings happened. Once all those rulings happen, you now can look at the case and be like, this is what a jury is going to see. And then you can really make a fair assessment of who's at risk and where and all parties had risk of exposure here. I know not everybody's going to agree with that. You never know what's going to happen at jury trial. All parties have risk of exposure and they're going forward on the retaliation claim. And that is contractually based, which means it could be that a jury looks at the contract and said, do you agree not to retaliate? We've got this text saying we can bury anyone and there's going to be some jurors being like, yeah, that looks like retaliation to me. So you have a case based on a contract dispute going to the jury. And then because it's on retaliation, all of the text messages behind the scenes are all going to come up and the question is really focused on, did they retaliate against Blake Lively in any way violating their agreement to not do so? And it's civil. Jurors don't have to be unanimous. So there's a lot of risk there for all parties. This is kind of surprising to me because I don't feel like it was ever about money. I don't feel like that's what- For Blake's side of it? For Blake's side. Blake wanted money from Wayfarer, from Justin to feel like she had won or what. I feel like in this settlement, there's got to be some sort of admit of wrongdoing. It just doesn't make sense to me that Blake would- That it would just be money motivated. Right? Isn't that weird? Well, I agree that it wasn't money motivated. I think though the decision can be money motivated because looking at filing a lawsuit and looking at how much money you're laying out for trial are two very different things. So going to trial and spending the millions and millions and millions for trial is going to be a part of that consideration. But also, I always think discovery was a huge part of this case. Knowing what was going on behind the scenes is a big part of that. And that part of the case has been completed. And I don't think we're going to see any other admissions other than what's in the joint statement. And the joint statement did indicate, we all agree that Blake brought claims that deserved to be heard. I think that's about as much of an acknowledgement as we're going to see. And then the end of that statement asking for things going forward on social media to be more peaceful. I talked to you offline a while back, talking about this case, Emily, and you said something. You talked about plaintiff fatigue, I think was the term you used or something to that effect. Now, that was really interesting. And I'd love for you to shed more light on it. But like you were just, you know, just the emotional toll, the psychological toll these court cases take on everyone. And, you know, again, depending on where you land on this thing, it, you know, it seems like a lot of defendants in these types of sexual harassment cases or things like that, that the defendants can be ultra aggressive in their defense in attacking the character of the plaintiff and things like that. And I think sometimes correct me if I'm wrong, what you were basically telling me is that like, it's one thing to like start a case and obviously feel like you really have the facts in your favor. And then you, you, you move forward and then things kind of snowball and fans get involved. And all of a sudden a year later, it just becomes a toll on your overall being, your mental health, your family and things like that. And you, and it sounds like you were basically saying like these plaintiffs, and maybe it's part of a strategy of the defense to kind of wear them down to a point where they're, they're, the reason they chose to fight it, you know, and maybe it wasn't money motivated, maybe the calculus changes for the plaintiffs where they start, they take a step back and say, all right, like I had my heels dug in, I was ready to fight, but it maybe it's not worth it. I don't know. Is it, is it something like that where that often plays a role in these types of cases? I mean, in any civil litigation, lawyers will try to explain exactly what it's going to be like. But there are some things you can't understand all the cost to yourself that it's going to take until you are walking through it. And oftentimes until after deposition, because your lawyers are going to look at you at the end of a six or eight hour deposition and be like, okay, now we're going to do that for four days while you're on the stand, in front of a jury, and you cannot lose your temper, and you cannot snap at the lawyer. And that is the lawyer that's going to cross examine you. And now you know what that feels like. Now you know what the evidence looks like. Now you know what they're going to say. And if they convince enough jurors, then where do we cut our losses? And that's for both sides, because both sides have to be willing to settle. The defense can say, we're not settling, you brought us all the way here, we're going to keep going. And the plaintiff can do the same. But at some point, the feeling shifts from, yes, I'm going forward to this with this lawsuit to the reality of living with going to trial is very different after you've done depositions. And plaintiffs do become fatigued. And we see that in all different types of cases, where defense delay becomes part of the strategy. I don't think we've seen that here. I think the defense has pushed this case forward pretty quickly to their credit. But yes, of course, the defense is going to be aggressive. They feel that they've been dragged into court wrongly, and they're going to let everyone know it. But it's not comfortable being cross examined in court. And you never know what 12 jurors or eight jurors are going to do. So once you've experienced that and lived with the lawyer bills coming to your your house every month, the fatigue of a thing can also help with settlement. But also, I really think that summary judgment ruling gave an off ramp, because the judge pointed out the strengths and weaknesses of both cases. And it gave everyone somewhere to come to the table and have a conversation about where you're exposed. And then you just have to have really a very strategic conversation of best case, worst case. And not all clients can hear that early on in a case, because it's going to be different for them. And their case is different than every other case. And they don't know yet. But once you've been through litigation, a lot of people are like, I'm just if we can just walk away from this, I'm ready for it to stop. And that very much might be where both parties are. And I'm sure everybody wants to walk away and be done. But a lot of the damage in this case has already been done. And we're going to keep seeing stuff get unsealed from court because we're that close to trial that unsealed documents are coming up. And maybe everything will get sealed again as part of the settlement. We don't know yet, because notice the settlement hasn't been filed. But it's damaging to have unsealed documents in court. But it's far more damaging to have those people come in and testify day after day after day. Plus, look at the witnesses we're talking about. Sony executives, other celebrities, this ropes in a ton of other people. And that has to be part of the calculation too. Do you really want to bring in all of the Sony executives into court, in federal court in New York and expose all of their emails to? At what point is it better to not have to bring all of those witnesses in? Yeah. One final question about this case. And then I want to get you get into some of the Mormon wives stuff. When you mentioned about the gag order or just the NDA that they all agree to, it feels like throughout this case, things have been leaked. I don't know on both sides. Certainly, I feel like on Justin's side, his team has its tentacles and a lot of online contributors. That's just really my opinion. But I guess my question is, I feel like we live in a world where one person will be like, I'm not going to say anything. I'm going to honor my NDA, but they'll find a way to get information out through third parties. How does the court handle something like this where you never hear anything from Justin or her side, you never hear anything from Blake or her side? But what if things do get out in the zeitgeist of the internet? Will these parties be held liable? And you know what I'm saying? How could they police that or honor that if it's somehow all of a sudden like Pierce Morgan, I don't know, is on his show and he starts like, I got some tea about this case because he's been like also like every so many people are covering it. What does that look like if people start speaking out and saying they have some information? Well, one of the things that's hard with this case is that there are so many documents. I'm sure there are things that have been filed on the public docket that people haven't unearthed yet, just because it's hundreds of thousands of pages of documents that have been unsealed. So people can continue to go and dig through those if they don't all get resealed, but they've already been out. So resealing it is kind of like trying to put the ship back in a horse. It's not going to work. So when you are looking at post settlement, it's up to the lawyers and you still have your lawyers on retainer and the lawyers have to start to sort out enforcement of that settlement agreement and that can end up back in court in separate litigation for breach of the settlement agreement, but that becomes a new litigation on breach of the settlement agreement and it can start things all over again. But I imagine that we won't see like Brian Friedman, one of the lawyers for the Wayfarer parties has given a lot of interviews. I imagine we won't see many interviews regarding this and if he's interviewed regarding other cases because he's still the lawyer in the Scandival lawsuit. He's one of the lawyers in that lawsuit. So if he's talking about other things and somebody asks about this, I imagine his statement is going to be everyone reached a mutual settlement agreement and we released a public statement and I have no further comment. Yeah, it doesn't sound like we'll be seeing Justin Baldoni, Blake Lively or Ryan or doing any sit-down interviews talking about this case anytime soon or ever. Or ever because those settlement agreements generally will be in perpetuity, which means no one can talk about it ever and we already know that they've gone through lengths to dig up who's communicating with who, how they're communicating. There's tons of discovery in this case that we'll never see the light of day and the lawyers will continue to be mindful of that and then go enforce those settlement agreements. Those things normally happen between lawyers and never get into a courtroom, but there are cases where settlement agreement and breach of settlement agreement does end up right back in court, but that breach of contract is a pretty easy case if it's one of the main parties. When it becomes the I have a source and then somebody's just talking, that can become a little more nuanced to dive into, but that's where you get into subpoenas and discovery in a whole new case. Seems like the lawyer's one. The lawyer's absolutely one. I said at the beginning of this case, I'm like the lawyers are going to win, everyone else is going to lose because it's so messy. So much has been unearthed in this case and there are things that are unflattering to all parties and many will have opinions on who it's more unflattering to and that's fine, but there is unflattering things that come up in a lawsuit on all sides and both parties thought that they had more to lose or they wouldn't have settled. That uncertainty of a jury, it is better for all parties, I think, to be able to put down the lawyers and walk away and though getting money from the other party might not have been the motive here, it's really real when you look at the actual cost of trial with a jury coming in in a week. It just sometimes takes right up to the end for parties to go, you know what, you're right, it's time to walk away. I feel like when this all started, I feel like, I don't know, that I don't think they ever thought it would go this far, you know, either of them, you know. There was that New York Times piece that was released at the end of the year and that almost felt like Blake's side kind of speaking her truth and it seemed to be a far different narrative than what everyone thought and then all these like lawsuits started happening and then it became almost like a tit for tat, you know, and it kind of almost, it felt like it almost snowballed where as if they never really thought it would get this far anyways, but it just kind of kept going and going and they dug their heels in and it sounds like maybe right before court, like, I guess, what cooler had prevailed, I guess, I don't know, is the saying. I think one of the things I've been critical of in this lawsuit particularly was how overblown the filings got, especially in the beginning, the very first filing by Lively was a pretty standard federal court complaint. Then again, she already had the New York Times article that had a lot of her side of the story. So then when Baldoni's side comes in with their side, it is not just a allegations complaint, it is screenshots, receipts, timelines. It is a very overwrought complaint with quite a lot of information in it, but I think strategically, the lawyers aren't trying to, you know, impress one another. They are trying to get their side of the story out to the public as well. And I think very early on, the Wayfarer lawyers took every opportunity and the filings to do that so that their side of the story was also getting pushed out very much through court documents. And the judge had actually admonished them once or twice, I think, about that. But everybody has really aired almost everything before witnesses come into court. So I think both sides have had quite a lot of information out in the public that wouldn't otherwise be there. That would have been a tough jury to select. It would have been a tough jury to select, but you will always find people who are like, wait, what? I've never heard that that's going on. But then again, that jury can skew a little bit older. And the tolerance for what's going on online can shift as your jury shifts because you get a younger audience who's looking at some of the retaliation stuff and they're like, yeah, I just kind of figure that's what happens on social media. You get a slightly older audience and they're like, wait, people are doing what? Are you kidding me? That's wild. Are you calling me old? I'm old. I'm calling me old. But you get a jury pool that hasn't heard of this case. Some of the allegations in this case that are going forward might also be more shocking to them. Fascinating, Emily. I really appreciate your perspective on this. Switching gears a little bit and taking your lawyer hat off and putting on your pop culture fan hat on. We can't just even do pop culture with normal wives because we've been in court so much on that case too. Well, yeah, we're in court. But the big question now is will mom talk survive? Over the weekend, TMZ released some audio from Jesse, which she has since addressed. And then Dakota entered the chat and then Dakota and then Taylor entered the chat. And it seemed now we're like almost kind of Allah, Justin and Blake where it was just like, we're getting outside of the courts and inside the court of public opinion, which they all seem to be trying to curry favor with the audience. Basically, to summarize the leak audio of Jesse was, was it Jesse talking to Dakota? Yeah. And basically, it was just like, when this all came out, it seemed like a lot of the women currently know how to like react to this video. It was we are unsure who saw this video. And I think we all can agree that like, however, you know, I don't care if you're Taylor Taylor's mom, Taylor's friend, that this is this was a very disturbing and difficult video to watch. And it was sad and heartbreaking for everyone involved. I took it as that's kind of was Jesse's point of view, just wanting to see the video. And I think a lot of these women when it first came out, we're kind of scared and unsure how to speak on this. And that it seemed like was Jesse's motivation as part of this conversation. At least how I took it. And then Dakota entered the chat and basically trying to like accuse Jesse of kind of like being too faced or not really having Taylor's back and kind of accusing Jesse of like changing tune now that like maybe public discourse has kind of shifted a little bit. Well, in this voice memo leaked after Taylor's lawyers said that like Jesse had a conversation where he was basically going to take the embarrassment in his own hands Dakota to like go after Taylor. So that's where this memo came out after the fact. Jesse's statement was something that the judge brought up in court that he was relying on based on what she said in her affidavit that Dakota had done. So the court mentioned it twice, I believe during that hearing that Jesse's statement to the court was something that he considered specifically in the things that Taylor brought forward with regard to trying to figure out the mutual protective orders. So it did play an in court right before that audio came out through TMZ. The thing that I don't really understand from Dakota's point of view, it's just like he seems to still be trying to convince Jesse, the audience, everyone that there was no strategy on his end, that this that he is truly just a victim in all of this, and that he has nothing to do with these videos and the timing of which it was released was awesome, big coincidence. And I just don't see how anyone at this point, and this is just my opinion, how they can believe that we had you on not too long ago, Emily talked about like we know that Dakota is the owner of the IP of this video. It seems to be that there's a roommate somehow is like the scapegoat of he's seems to be the one selling it to TMZ. It's just like, well, he's your roommate. How is he involved in this? Like, well, how did he get the video? And it's almost as if like Dakota is trying to gaslight anyone and thinking that like he's just a helpless bystander and he can't control if his roommate like goes into his room and goes into his phone and steals a video and like as if we're supposed to believe that and find a contact to TMZ and find a contact to TMZ. Well, what's interesting is before this audio came out, you had Jesse go on her stories and say like, Hey, just got a phone call. There's going to be some audio that's released. It's a voice memo that I sent to Dakota. And this is what it is. I've already talked to Taylor about it. I think all of this is just proving that he clearly has a contact at TMZ and he is clearly providing them with all of this information to try and make himself look better. Yeah, which speaks to again, this seems to be all about him trying to make himself look better and simultaneously make Taylor look bad. And I just didn't get for the life of me how he thinks that we're buying this story. Didn't his lawyer say in court, he asked his publicist not to release the video. His lawyer exactly said that. His lawyer said he asked his public he gave the video to his publicist and asked them not to release it. His lawyer was still trying to kind of dance around some of the things that the court wanted to hear about with Dakota. And I think Jesse probably should have been wary if she had seen that he saved the voice memo when she sent it. Because on the iPhone, you would see if it's saved unless he recorded it as like a screen recording when he played it. So it doesn't show that the voice memo is saved. But also, why are we doing that much then? Exactly. Unless we're using it again. Also, that's kind of the point. He's releasing this video of Jesse and it says, like, wait, we're supposed to believe that you strategically kind of set her up and threw her out of the bus. But like, you're not that type of guy who would do that in any other situation, including your ex partner who you share a child with. And it's just like, well, which one are you? You know, are you the it's like, what, which, which part of this are we supposed to believe? Also, like, if you asked your publicist not to release it, then they probably wouldn't have released it. They are your publicist. I'm also shocked that he has a publicist. I think that was a large sentiment. Everybody went, wait, what? But also, I imagine most publicists, especially when we were dealing with a video of a domestic violence incident where children are present, aren't going to play fast and loose with that. And even if the roommate sent it to TMZ, I can't imagine that legally, they would put it out without having the copyright owner sign off on it. So at the end of the day, we know that Dakota had to sign off on that video, becoming public on their child's birthday. And the day he went to court, the timing is not coincidental. And to Taylor Frankie Paul, the lawyer and her credit, their strategy was take responsibility for the things you've done, give context around the other things. And Dakota's strategy was, she's the problem. I'm not the problem. She needs a restraining order, not me. And I don't think the court was very persuaded by that. But yes, this Jesse voicing out coming out after the court relied on Jesse's affidavit is not a coincidence. And to that point, even if Jesse sent the voice note to Dakota, to Dakota's phone, in theory, Dakota's the owner of that voicemail note. So even if his roommate stole it or got into his phone, to your point, TMZ would still want to get Dakota's approval and sign off for releasing that voice memo, even if it was the roommate who called up TMZ and said, hey, I got this voice memo. I mean, in theory, they could get Jesse's approval, but we don't think that's going to happen. So I can't see Jesse being like, oh, sure, that's super flattering for me. Let's go ahead and put it out there. Is their case done, Taylor and Dakota's? Or are they still like in court? It's kind of done. So I have a question about what's going to happen with everybody reaching out to Jesse, because if they're making statements about each other, publicly, they both have a no contact order, which is not just don't be within 100 feet of each other. It's do not talk about the other one, no comments through third parties. So they both now have mutual stay-overs for three years. The parenting time part of the case is not done yet. And then they still have a child custody case that is not done yet. So there is more going on that is going to keep going through the court system. And there is a open CPS case that is wrapping up because they're both getting support and services and evaluations. So the parenting stuff's not done. But yeah, they both have three-year mutual protective orders. So there's no way they can film together. I don't know if she will want to go back to filming, but there's no way they can film together. They probably can't be on the show together because in confessionals, you would have to talk about the other and they're not allowed to do that. Did you see Dakota posted some TikTok, some video, and Leanne, Taylor's mom, commented and said, I would just like to know who's watching ever. Yeah, which I mean, I guess she's allowed to, right? I mean, she doesn't have a no, she can... Not talking about Taylor. Yeah. But it's going to come up because they still have a custody case and they still have a argument over how much Taylor gets to see ever. Because remember, Taylor's still on only supervised parental time, which is limited hours a day with a supervisor. And that right now is some family members. But he has 100% custody, which is a huge change, because she had had 70% custody up until he filed that temporary protective order on ever's birthday and then took 100% custody. Fascinating. Fascinating. I think it's one thing that I think Dakota has failed to recognize. And I think this is why, obviously, again, we know that the video is disturbing. No one thinks it's anything other than terrible to see. But the reason why Taylor Frankie Paul has the fans that she has throughout this time is that she's always been honest. She's always taken accountability. She's always owned her part. Now, you can critique how she's done that. You can say that's not enough. But she's always been willing to go there where it seems like Dakota's not. And he seems to have been caught in so many lies. And even now, it's just like he is publicly saying things that are quite frankly, easily disproven. And I think over time, that's going to continue to work against Dakota because Taylor seems to be comfortable with acknowledging the role she has played in this mess. Like you said, that seems to be her team strategy is to like not pretend that she has not done anything wrong, but offer that context where it's just like there is more to the story. And it just honestly seems a lot more believable than Dakota's side of things. It's the court was very clear that no one is without blame in their relationship and had pretty strong words for both of them, almost in a both of you need to get it together and stop it. But he said that he found Dakota's behavior to be calculating. And he found Taylor to have absolutely no rain on her emotions. And it concerned the court that when she's provoked, it doesn't matter if her child is there, if her child's in Dakota's arms, that she does not snap out of it when she's going after him, even if the kids are around. And he found Dakota's behavior that he's picking up his phone and filming her after she is responding to be really concerning. That doesn't change that it's not okay to hit someone. But the court was like, you can't go hands on with people and you cannot lose control while your children are around. And he should not and cannot be pushing your buttons. And when you get in a car driving away with the children in the home at night, you two both cannot do this. So I think the everyone has to stay away from everyone is going to be tough over the next three years. And then the thing that they have that most cases don't have is that the entire internet is going to be scouring everything they do on social being like, does that violate the protective order? Did you just violate the protective order? Hey, I think they violated the protective order. The amount of emails their lawyers are going to get with tips from the internet is going to be persistent, I would imagine. So will mom talk? I mean, hopefully dad talk doesn't. That's just where I'm at. So I hope dad talk doesn't survive it. It just seems not to be it. It's just like they're not likable. I do think mom talk survive it. We'll obviously keep discussing it. Nick, can I ask you one part of question as we go? Yes. Did you see in court that they talked about the lip tattoo? I did. Yeah. And he claimed that it was for. Did you know that that happened when they were filming? No. No. So it's on camera? Apparently. Okay. This is what I wanted to ask you about because you had asked me about the lip tattoo last time and I was like, I haven't even heard of this. They bring up the lip tattoo in court and Dakota's lawyer gets up there and says, Your Honor, it's not weird that he's getting her initials tattooed in his lip because all of the dads went to a tattoo parlor with the camera crew because they were filming. Oh my God. So apparently that's part of season five. I guess. It's crazy. Well, the question is, will they air that? You know, because like, can they air that? Will they air that? It's kind of case in point to the whole situation we're in. Yeah. I also don't know if at this point I need to see all of dad talk going to get their lips tatted so they can be more talk. I'm curious how the courts would see that. But I, again, this isn't scripted. This is reality TV and I understand some things that, you know, they're doing scenes, but it's reality TV. People are in charge of their own decisions. No one made anyone get a tattoo and no one made to get a certain tattoo or the placement of the tattoo in things like that. I feel like that would be a really bad defense, but I don't know how the court would see it. I thought it was interesting that the defense was, but your honor, they were filming and I want to know whose idea it was to go to the tattoo parlors because was it Jordan's? And why do I need to know that immediately? It was almost certainly Jordan's 100%. He seems to be the producer of dad talk. Not a very good one, but he does seem to be one. Emily, thanks so much for your time. We appreciate you. It's always fun talking with you. And we'll have to, again, always have you back, not just to talk legal, but to get into all your pop culture takes because that's what we love about you, Emily. You're not only just an expert, you're also a fan. Absolutely. Thank you guys so much. Good to see you. Thanks Emily. Bye. There's something about spring that just screams refresh, restart and trying something new. And if you have ever thought about learning a new language, you need to check out Rosetta Stone. Learning a new language can be such a great fun hobby at any stage in life. 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So do not settle for less than evidence-based support. Save 25% on your first month at ritual.com slash v-i-a-l-l. That's ritual.com slash v-i-a-l-l for 25% off your first month. Always fascinating stuff from Emily Baker. Since honestly, since she left, there's more and more information has come out. I also, it's funny because when we asked her about like the gag order or the NDA, where TMZ has since reported that like no money was exchanged, I don't know how they can figure that out that quickly. And if also like how does that come from anywhere other than the people involved? I imagine we're going to see more and more opinions, hot takes. My opinion hasn't changed, but you know. I don't know. I forgot to ask Emily this, but I wonder if like with the settlement part of it was just the realization that everyone, like with public opinion in the court of public opinion, everyone's just kind of like, we're still, at least that's how I like when I see headlines about it now, I'm like, oh my God, we're still feeling this. I think that's it a lot. And it's like fatigue, not even fatigue. Again, your friends get involved. It just, it's like, it's not worth it. Someone who's never really been involved in something like this, you know, you just hear stories of it. I think it's just, I think it consumes your whole life. And at some point, you have to make some very tough decisions on what's best, big picture and long term. I just, you know, I worry that it's just more of the same of someone trying to stand up for something and then quickly realizes how the world fights against that. And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know. We also have Tom Swartz coming up momentarily, and that's a very fun conversation. He has some stuff to say about Summerhouse. He actually hung out with Kyle and Carl recently and have some interesting perspective, plus talking about obviously his time in the Valley, his new love in his life. He's in love. Truly. I mean, you can see it. I don't know. Glowing. You can even hear in his voice if you're listening to the show. But before we do, Mom Talk is trying to survive. Whitney recently announced that she is not coming back. Today, she clarified that she will be finishing filming in season five when cameras pick back up if they haven't already. To confirm, it seems like, who do we still have left in Mom Talk? Macy, Mikaela, Layla, Miranda, Jan, Jesse. And then I'm going to go ahead and say Taylor Frankieball. I think as long as Taylor is a part of the show, Mom Talk survives. Yeah, but the question is if she's not, or even if she just kind of takes a little breather break, do you think they bring in kind of housewife-esque? Do you think they bring in new moms into the mix? Maybe. I don't know. I mean, they already have done that. That's Miranda technically. Yeah, but Miranda was like a lore. She was the original lore. Shania was kind of a part of stuff. But I don't want. It's my impression that before the show started, when you talk about Mom Talk, Mom Talk wasn't limited to these few women. No, they told us it was like 50s or a ton of them. Yeah. So it seems like they would have a pretty deep roster. Depend she came from. But I mean, remember the backlash Miranda got for joining? It was like, oh, you just want to like. I mean, sure. But I wonder if that's going to be every single, you know, that doesn't happen for new housewives, right? New housewives, it's just like, oh, part of it. You know, you get a new season. You're going on TV to be a housewife, but with Mormon wives would be like, oh, you're just doing this to, you know, be famous for the club. Cross it off, Mom Talk. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My guess is that if you were to talk to any new housewife, they probably hear that and feel that more than maybe we see it out there. Yeah, I guess. I think everyone's always resistant to change. I mean, you know, every time I bring a new voice on the show, it was like, who the fuck is this person? You know, there's a little bit of like audience hazing. Really? Really? Really? I do think Mom Talk can survive without Taylor Brinke-Paul, though. Like I think Jesse Draper, Miranda, Mikayla, all of them, Layla have like transcended and like their followings are in the millions. Like they pull in views consistently on their content. I don't disagree with that. I just think it would be even like Macy alone, like her sister. It would be a big cloud to like really break through, you know? And it's just, I think Taylor just has such a deep impact on this show and this group of women that I don't think it's, I think they have the talent and I think there's an interest and certainly Jesse is giving. But you know, the same way we talk about like the Valley where it's just like, you know, there's no one sad to see Jax go. And yet I still think we're feeling the effects of him not being on the show. But with that, I am like, I could barely get through the Valley last season. Like it was so hard to watch. It was making me like physically sick to my stomach to watch. And this season isn't the most like dramatic, exciting thing in the world. Like I'm not like waiting on the edge of my seat to see what's going to go down in the Valley every week. But also I, like my body feels okay watching it. And I think that matters a lot. I think shows need their healing periods. Yeah. Like story line wise specifically. Hilling journeys are important if we've learned anything from Whitney Rose. I hope if Taylor comes back, it'll be interesting what her storyline will be because her storyline has been so wrapped up. It's going to be recovering from all of this. It's going to be her friendships. Hey guys, were you there for me? Were you not there for me? Thank you for being there for me. It's going to be the mending of the mom talk friendships. It's going to be the- I'm down to see that. I'm down to see it too. I just hope for her sake and for everyone else's sake that it doesn't complicate an already complicated situation by having it on camera for TV. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, no, I do hope that if she's back, they have her best interests in mind. Yeah. Long term. And I would say that for every single person on Mormon wives, I think after this, I'm just a little like, I just want to make sure all these girls are okay. All right. Well, more will be revealed. I still think we're going to get the Taylor-Frankie Paul Bashra at season. Yeah. I mean, I think people are assuming at this point. Yeah. It would be more of a money loss for them not to- I think everyone's just ready to see it. Anyways, we have Tom Sports coming up next and you won't be disappointed. I like rocking the headphones. Is that cool? Yeah, I rock them. Hey guys. Really feels like a podcast. What's up? Yeah. What's up gang? Hi. What if we just whispered the entire podcast and did a little ASMR? I like ASMR, yeah. ASMR was so hot for a while there. Was it? It was really trendy. Yeah. Is it not anymore? Me? I don't know. I think people may have gotten a little uncomfortable with it. Oversaturated. Yeah, I did. Too much of a good thing. Yeah, it got so quiet. Welcome back, Tom Sports. Hi guys. Tom Schwartz. How are you? Very happy, familiar faces. I missed you guys. We missed you. Mama. I know. I'm so happy for you. Tom brought Nally flowers. He did. He brought me flowers. They're sitting right there. We should have brought her one set, but how nice is that? Thanks for having me back, you guys. Wait, Nick, did Lori predict you were going to have twins like eight months, eight years ago? She, she, but she told me she was going to have two boys. Oh, that's right. Which I told her yesterday. I was like, you know, very happy about the girls, but what the fuck? I'm so happy for you guys. One time my mom was in South Florida and at that point she had no kids and she went and got a poem reading. Did we talk about this last time? I don't know. But she predicted, she said you're going to have, oh no, she had my sister. She said you're going to have one more boy and then you're going to have triplet boys and that's exactly what happened. Your mom had triplets? Yeah. Yeah. Billy Burton Brandon, shout out to the triplets. Billy Burton Brandon. Because I feel like twins is someone who's about to be a father or twins. It still feels like sci-fi. Yeah. You know, like it's like a, triplets is like next level. But triplets, that is, my mom was like this to you guys. She's a little stick. She's so petite and small. And how did she do it? She got a C-section. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But how did she like survive? Like walking through the steps. More emotionally. Yeah. No, no, no, for sure. Yeah. But how did she like survive triplets and having two other kids? She's just a champion. She's such a rock and an amazing human being and she's just the best mom. I know everyone thinks their mom's the best mom. Yeah. But really, really, she's just an amazing human being. I don't know. She's so resilient. Did you ever have like FOMO with the triplets where you're ever like, oh, wow, you're really, you guys are leaving me out. It is a magical thing because they have an unspoken language like an ESP type of thing. This is very common with twins and triplets, right? And they're fraternal, right? You can't have identical triplets. Can you? Is that a dumb question? I think technically they're identical, although they don't look identical anymore. They look very different. Although they're starting to look a lot alike again. Are they just like dyeing their hair different colors or like? It's so weird that they're like, they just turned 40, my brothers. I just read, I just, I'll always think of them as like 15. It's crazy. But yeah. Man, I'm so happy for you guys. Thanks, man. How's it been? And you were just in Florida taking care of mom? Yeah, I was just in Florida taking care of mom. Love Florida. And if there's any void in my life, I think we talk about that a lot in the season. It's not having kids. I never thought I would be in my 40s not having kids. I don't even have the white picket fence. 43. There's still time. I know. It's scary. That's like, I mean, we talk about that this season on the Valley. It's like, I'm completely restarting my life over. My whole, old life is gone. Like Tom Tumster of Salesforce and St. Jesus is closed. I'm not going to be a bootleg Lisa Vanderpump, which was the goal. You know, we had the liquor line, like things like I was charting in a certain direction. I was like, this is going to be my life now. And that's just gone. Do you feel good about that or feel like sad about that? What's that saying? I think I would have, I could have been happy. It's man, it's such a brutal business. Have you ever invested in a bar or anything? You guys, it's a meat grinder of a business and it's really hard on your personal life. You inevitably drink more than you want to drink. By the way, I'm not whining or complaining. I chose to do this. And I always, it was a dream of mine. So I have a bar in Los Angeles, but it chewed me up and it spit me out. You guys know that story yet? Yeah. It really did chew you up and spit you out. We were chatting before and like, I never turned so introverted in my entire life. I turned into a hermit and that's one of the reasons I started the podcast and I've been hosting more events and stuff, live events, like just coming back out of my shell, getting- Give some color. Was that partly because, you know, just like the online discourse or the criticism or just like the weight of the audience, of which you've been so connected with over the years, it just, did it get too much almost? Yeah, it did. And like, well, my favorite part about it was the sense of community. Does that sound like a kiss ass? I love, like, I love being in there and meeting people from all walks of life and hearing about their stories. Like, oh my God, Vanderpump rules helped me get through like some of the darkest moments of my life, cancer, stuff like that. Like, man, we had such a rich community and even the neighborhood is like really supporting us towards the end over in Franklin Village. But yeah, man, it just, I lost so much money and time and energy. Like, I put everything I had into that place and it just became like the laughing stock of the entire internet. And everyone went online and said they found worms with mustaches in their salads. Anyways, we don't have to rehash that word. I actually had a really good conversation with Santaval yesterday. Did you? I talked to him for like an hour, FaceTime him and he's just doing so well right now. Just popped in my head. It was nice. He sounded just so good and optimistic. And Pat, would you say your guys' friendship? I mean, obviously, it sounds like you're still friends, but do you feel like there's been a little distance created between you two? We took a long break from each other. I mean, SNS, not to like, I know we've already talked about this. I don't want to do stale topics, but that almost destroyed our friendship. It really did. We took a long break from each other. But listen, it's water under the bridge now. We've worked through it. I have no lingering resentment. Can you see it on me? No, I see. No, you look great. I told you. Really? He looks like he's got some, I don't know if it's the Florida tan, but like you've got some color to you. Natalie, it's love. It's love. You're in love. I'm in love again. I can't overheal Gaga. Really? Yeah. Was the last time you here? No, no, no. I don't know. Have you guys met Keanu? No. Oh, you haven't. Why did I think you guys had met her? Yeah, her name's Keanu. Not Michelle. No. You guys, I was so awkward in the beginning of the show. I'd like to make a public apology to the audience, the Bravo fan. I was so, I've never seen myself. I was a happy shell of myself. I kind of feel like I was maybe living a bit of a double life because I was going through the motions of like being a single guy and exploring dating, but like quietly behind the scenes. I was like starting to fall in love with Keanu. And I was like, it's scary. What a pretty name. It's a gorgeous name. I call her Kiki. Hi, Kiki. I don't know if she'll listen to this, but I love her madly. She's just like, love. She's devastatingly gorgeous, like way out of my league. I'm just as confused as you guys. We're all confused. Can I see a picture? Yeah. In a sea of green flags, I'm the only red flag. Why would you date me? Wait, how did y'all meet? We had been friends for a long time. She came into like one of the last night, Schwartz Insanis was open, and we were friends like casual, but we never like hung out or nothing romantic really. And then over the past like six or seven months, it's really blossom into this beautiful thing. Let's see what pictures I show you. Anyone? I mean, let's see. An appropriate one. Yeah. Thanks for your both clothes. Yeah. I mean, not to brag, but she is a model. But like that's like the least interesting thing about her. She's like ferociously funny. She's traveled the world. Independent success. Oh my God, she's my karma. For all of my failures and past relationships that we don't have to dissect. I think she's my karma. How long you've been together? Like, I think we're coming up on eight months. Okay. Yeah, we're going to Cabo this weekend. What? To like, are you going to propose? Whoa. I mean, you just spoiled it now. Will you? Will you? You're listening. Will you? This would actually be kind of cool. I don't know. She might hate it. We've never done a propose on this show. Wait, what would be her reaction if you were to hypothetically like throw a drink in her face? Oh my God. Listen, if anything, she's going to throw a drink in my face and I probably deserve it. But I'm so sweet and soft now, but I think I'm a little obnoxious. And I think I've sort of finally grown out of my puppy dog stick. My little sheepish, dopey kind of. Can I hold this? She's 27. Okay. She's about to turn 28. Yeah. But like, she's so epic. She's so cool. 43. Yeah. She's, yeah. We should have been on your show. You should have. You didn't need the show. You found it organically. Dude, congrats, by the way. It was a big hit. Yeah, it really worked out. Now he was a star. Is that, did you guys conceptualize this? No, we wish. No, we didn't. Jen and Rebecca at the Velvet Hammer, where the brainchild's behind the show. See, it makes so much sense. I have found, as someone who everyone's working on, they're a reality TV idea. Yeah, we all got one. We all got one. I have learned that it's sometimes the simplest premises are the ones that really pop. Can't be too confusing. Well, yours was certainly polarizing. It was like, yeah, it was received just how I imagined everyone thought it would be received, but it was good. Would I do anything that wasn't, you know? Is she gonna like potentially be on the next That's the thing. When you're dating someone, you care about them on a deep level. I love this person. I'm madly in love. It's like, you're protective over them. Because it's like, if you're not all the way on the show, it can be kind of scary. And it's like, I'm trying to be protective of her privacy, but she's such a good sport about it. And she's got such a good head on her shoulders. She's so well rounded. How has this relationship fulfilled you in ways that maybe you just haven't been fulfilled before? Both maybe as a result, you know, just the growth that you've done and not to just put it in any, you know, not assigning blame or comparison, but you are in this new stage of life. And obviously, there's a brightness to you and energy. Thank you. You feel Thank you. You look happy and excited and optimistic and where bubbly, bubbly. And I at 43 years old, despite your girlfriend being as beautiful as you feel that she is and how much she is. Thank you. I'm guessing that this excitement and love and enthusiasm is coming from a place of more than just looking at her, of course, and how she makes you feel in this relationship. Exactly. Precisely. And listen, not to hate the line, you'll see how that plays out this season because she was a good sport and she did me a solid and she filmed a good amount. Okay. So but she's nervous. It's scary. It's like kind of getting thrown to the wolves and all of a sudden the remember the first time you had the public scrutinizing you, it feels like a loss of control. It's kind of scary. Yeah. But she's like, I learned a lot of things about myself. Yeah, me too. Oh my god. I guess my face does look like that. Yeah, it's hard. How do you feel at this point watching yourself? Are you guys cool? Watching myself? Yeah. I don't know. I'm trying not to. I mean, we watched Age of Attraction and I don't I mean, we definitely were like critical of our, you know, why are we standing like that? Why are we, you know, doing your critical, your hyper critical of yourself. Your posture. Exactly. The sound of your voice. Yes. My god. Yes. Well, I just, I feel, I don't, I don't know. It just feels right. That's an oversimplification, but it just feels right. And we're aligned in our values and like we have such a good, healthy line of communication. And I just, I don't know. I was a bit of a, I was a bit of a pot back in the day. And what? Just I think I was maybe some of the stereotypes about me were true, you know, I always resented people saying I'm spineless because I'm like deeply compassionate and I love to, maybe to a fault I love putting myself in other people's shoes. I like to try to lift people up when they're down, even when they did it to themselves and they're dealing with the consequences of their own actions. Not an apologist. Not an apologist. Right? So you're looking for, do you feel like you've learned how to stand up not only to yourself, but maybe even to a friend. Yes. At the risk of, of disappointment. Yes. Disappointment. Definitely. And your girlfriend, you, you wanted kids. I mean, when, and Ali and I met, you know, a lot of people will say, what are you, could you possibly have a come? And I'm like, well, actually quite a lot. And, and, and the thing we had most in common when we met is that when I met, met now, and we started dating, she was like, I just, I've lived a lot of life in my young years and I really want to be a young mom and I want to have children in my twenties. It wasn't like I need to have kids next week, but it was like, Oh, great. I'm also for the right person at the right time, excited and anxious to have children. And so that was a conversation we had fairly early in our career, very early in our relationship, because, you know, I wanted to be honest with myself, could this relationship work? And that was a big part of my non negotiable priorities. You know, I didn't, I didn't want to start a relationship only to have to wait, you know, about something so important to me. I could, I'm totally aligned with you because we've had those hard conversations and we do have such a great line of communication. And yes, we talk about that on the season. So I don't know how much I want to get into it just because I don't want to work. I don't want to work. Guys, what I feel so effing lucky. It was the most like organic transition ever to go from Vanderpump rules onto the Valley. I'm already friends with everyone. And what do you guys think of the season so far? It's good. I said that like a it's a slower burn. I think I was talking to one of your peers who felt a little self-conscious about the lack of attention we were given the Valley so far this season. I saw that result of our summer house discourse. I was just with Carl and Kyle last week in, oh, two weeks ago. I have questions for you. Carl's not a mess. Carl is thriving. Carl is thriving. He has recovered. I do. Can I ask him some summer house questions? Of course. Really? Okay, great. Yeah, wonderful. This is cool. I missed you guys. I really missed you. This is so beautiful. But to answer your question about the Valley, I'm enjoying it. I really like the conversations between Kristen and Luke. And obviously it's very relatable to us. I think we didn't have the same experience that Kristen and Luke are going through. But I think every young parent knows what it's like to transition from not having kids to just nine months of pregnancy and that adjustment to postpartum. And it's a different line of communication. A lot of pathways. You got a lot of conversations you have to have. It also is a lot lighter without Jacks. We like that. But I imagine though, it's a chance. I think as audience members, we talk about this a lot on the show and as it relates to the summer house. I think it's in and I've been no fan of Jacks and certainly no supporter. But we do, we love drama. And there's a toxicity that we, yeah, we want to critique it. We'll call it out. But it is what brings us in. And I think, do you feel like the cast has had to learn how to live without Jacks in terms of making TV and relying on him for what seemed to be just always bringing the toxicity? Someone who comes from a bachelor franchise is always like, oh, everyone wanted the villain to leave and everyone would be like, oh, that person's gone. And then I was like, well, be careful because someone else has to replace them. And they don't even realize that. You know, do you guys feel that loss with Jacks? That's funny. On the way over here, my car has been in the shop for like a month and I was scrolling. I was looking at chicks in the office, weekly reviews of shows. And I forgot what they graded the Valley, but they said the apex predator is gone and no one knows what to do. And I'm like, well, first of all, I'll give Jacks a shout out because he's been sober for one year and three months now. And I know he's been Mr. Work in Progress forever. But like he's actually been putting in like noticeable changes. And really, I don't know for Brittany's standpoint, I don't know if she's going to be rolling her eyes, but from a friend standpoint, I got to give Jacks a shout out. He's really been putting work into himself. But yes, it's weird. It was weird in the beginning to be on a show with someone that was the second person, third person I met in Los Angeles, we lived together, you know, for better or for worse, we're family. And yeah, it was weird in the beginning, but just watching it back, I don't know. I'm very thoroughly entertained aside from when I'm on the screen. I'm loving the show. I'm fascinated with like, like Jesse and Michelle's dynamic with the divorce and and being young parents, I don't I, I couldn't imagine going through divorce with a young child and having to watch my former partner, even if I hated him, you know, like bond with someone else and then have to watch their new partner parent your child. And it would just be very difficult not to see red. And so I truly empathize with both of them, regardless of what you think of the characters. It's I'm very connected to that story. I felt always fascinated by that. Me too. I'm so invested and I'm like friends with all them, but I'm watching it back. It's yeah, like I love, I love Lacey. Me and Michelle became really good friends this past year, but like, I love Lacey and Jesse's dynamic. She's also his karma. Yeah, she's like it. If you were to have actually dated Michelle, do you think Jesse would have cared? But then she would have never dated Dr. Dre. That's so true. There's a there's a reality in which she chose me over Dr. Dre. I was kidding. Like, is that a thing? Michelle and Dr. Dre. We, me and Michelle never had anything aside from just a bulletonic phone. The doctor. Dr Dre. Is it? I haven't talked to Michelle. I've reached out to her because I thought it was an AI generator article, which go viral like crazy on Facebook. Yeah. But I don't know. Did you guys get verification? No. I mean, it looked pretty verifiable to me. They were holding hands. So didn't look like a business meeting. And there was those Quentin Tarantino, you know, rumors in the past. So I was like, maybe she just roamed in elite circles. We were joking about this. I was in Ohio this past weekend, and someone sent me a meme and it said, Michelle has the craziest pipeline ever. Jesse to Quentin Tarantino, to the honey guy, to almost Tom Schwartz, Dr. Dre. And I was just kidding if she sees it. We're just, we're just, we're just, we're just, we're just, we're just, we're just, we're obviously very fascinated with the summer house drama of it all. And obviously, you know, everyone's comparing it to Scandival. And so like, you're almost weirdly, adjacently connected. I think even, I think even some of the fans have tried to blame you. Because last season, people don't remember you were like, this is gonna last guys, you know. And I think it's not your fault. I want, I want you to know, despite what the internet says, that felt like a nice Goodwill hunting moment. Yeah, right. It's not your fault. Thank you. It's not your fault. Did I jinx the cat? It's not your fault. No. I think if it happens to the Southern Hospitality kids too, and you're there, then that's an issue. Since you're feeling vulnerable right now, in all bit and honest, do you feel like West Wilson has a little bit of Tom Schwartz in him all, let's say, 10 years ago? And I have described West, who I've gotten to know. I don't know what he thinks about these days. We've been a little critical of his behavior. I hope he's okay with it. But I've described him as kind of a weak man. Really? And I've described it in a sense because like, you know, he does this whole like, aw, shucks kind of bit. I would never. And, you know, again, he seems like very in tune with his feelings, probably has done some therapy. You can see it. You can tell West. He's done the work. And I feel like there's this kind of new kind of guy in the zeitgeist of modern dating and pop culture, where they can center their feelings and use that therapy talk. And at the end of the day, there's a level of weakness because instead of just being direct and respecting people, they center their feelings. And you have this guy in West who kind of just kind of wanted to pretend that Sierra wasn't trying to communicate something like this, how important this friendship means to him and what this friendship was a was about for her, which was like a stepping stone into a relationship. And then he just kind of always focused on him. And I don't think he's a bad guy. I don't think he meant to hurt anyone. But I think that is a bit of a cop out for like just not honestly taking kind of responsibility of the hers actions. And like you kind of talked about how maybe some of your those criticisms were true. Do you feel like there's a little bit of that? Or do you have empathy for West? Are you critical of West? How do you see it? Well, I hate piling on people when they're down. He knows. We don't want to pile on. But we're breaking. I think there's a clear code violation, right? Ethical bro girl code violation. Like it's messed up. And you just like when you're what when you're in it and you're feeling the feelings, you can't control how you feel, but you can control how you respond to those feelings. And I wonder what those conversations because I'm friends with Amanda and West. I still love them. I don't I hate piling on them. But like they know they I just do you think they know they fucked up, so to speak. They seemed a little defensive. Like I remember when they released the joint statements, which I didn't like. I was man, they were just kind of poor taste, not to not to pile on. I hated those joint statements. But I don't know. I don't know. I just I don't know. I don't see it going to distance. Like it's just it's almost never worth it when you know you're going to alienate or violate a friend. It just seems it doesn't just feel jinxed or doomed. Yeah. I don't know. We were talking. I mean, what we're hearing about how Amanda and West might feel and how they may go about defending themselves. Amanda almost sounds how Sandoval sounded, which was like almost kind of very defiant as opposed to like remember back in the day and everyone was like just to say you're sorry and move the fuck on and just be like, you know, and Tom was always like, yeah, but he always had the but and I you know, I you know, it's just like I have empathy for all you guys because I think you know, fans sometimes we were very fascinated with the TV show. And I think sometimes, you know, I honestly, you don't have to answer the question. I sometimes wonder, does even younger time sports, is he really type of guy who would throw a drink in his face? Or is he just like, you know, make a TV. And I just kind of wonder if sometimes do do you guys who have who've made careers showing up season after season, lose yourself a little bit. Do you guys do you feel like sometimes you you've lost yourself and not knowing when like the TV character stops and the human begins and like where they almost overconnected in a way where and then and then you can't speak on things because you're not sure if you're like speaking about production away, you're not supposed to speak on it, but you you have fans coming and making assumptions and and it kind of gets cloudy because that's how it felt like Tom was where it was like, but there's this thing I need you to know and and as opposed to being like, yeah, it doesn't really matter to say you're sorry. Yeah, I mean, so essentially saying to sometimes like the subconscious pressure of knowing that you have to bring it sort of compromise your integrity almost sure, whatever. I don't think so. At least certainly not I know better than ever self produced because when you do it comes off horribly and they can see it a mile away. But I'm sure at some points, you're like, yeah, you're like, oh my god, because you know what works and doesn't work after being on TV for 10 years. But you don't want to be too self aware about no one wants to watch someone who's overly self aware, right? That's no fun. Right. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. There's times where maybe yeah, maybe I did have some identity crisis is in the past. I'm like, is really is that me? Is that who I am? I remember I used to get so insulted when I would do events and people were like, you're just like you are on TV. And I'm like, don't you say that? Take it back right now. Because it's like, I thought I was kind of likable, but I'm still always shocked that people still show me so much love. Truly like when I host events that I'm traveling, I get a lot of love. And I'm like, you guys, did you not watch the show? I was kind of pathetic. I think what you have is like this. There's like this earnestness at least on TV where it's like you're making decisions that so many times in Vanderpump rules, I was like, why the fuck do you do that? But there's a thing where you're like, you you have this like charmingness of just like kind of what you're saying of not like self producing. It seems like genuine that you're kind of just like, whoops, versus like sometimes with sand of all, I think he like his energy comes off as more of like, he's intentionally doing this. And I wonder if that's it. I don't know. I don't know. Like it might come across that way. I don't know. I love watching Tom on TV. I know I'm partial because I've known him for so long. But he's a TV star. He like gives 1000%. I know he's working on a cool project. I don't even know what it's about. But like, I just know he's out there giving 1000% every day. Like everything else in his life has disappeared. And he's so immersed in that moment. I love that about him when he does a show, like on Traders and stuff. And he's all in. Wait, what's your guys favorite Bravo show right now? Some are. Yeah. It's just like the relationship dynamics. And it's, I think that again, that's why we, I hate to say we love the scandal, but like it's it's easier to watch this group of friends and judge them and critique them and look at our own lives. And I think we have all other people want to admit it. We know it's like to be abandoned by friends or let out my friends. We've even been the bad friend. You know, we have been the bad partner. We have been, you know, all these things that all these people represent and these dynamics. And that's why, you know, whether it's the Valley or Summerhouse, I mean, I think Summerhouse is the best show on TV that I think represents kind of modern dating culture, which I think is is fascinating for me as someone who's like interested in that stuff. How's Kyle doing? He's doing great. He's crushing it. It's like, I know everyone was so he got a good healthy roast when he decided to start DJing in his 40s. But I'm so happy he did. I'm so happy he didn't listen to the audience because now he's crushing it. He's selling out shows in Chicago at Tau and stuff. And it's like, it's another great way to promote Loverboy. I think Loverboy is like kind of crushing right now. Thank you, Amanda. The graphic designer part didn't really help, but yeah, I just was Kyle in West ever that close or friends? Like if you're, if you had to guess, because I'm guessing you don't know, how do you think West justified the way he moved as it related to his friendship with Kyle? The love must have been undeniable, right? Because it's not just a sexual thing. He's like, I don't think he's trying to get his rocks off. I don't know. I can say that. You can say that. But I don't think it, right? Because it seems like it sounded like he was already getting the rocks off. Yeah. Yeah. He was, he's West is weird because I'm friends with West, but I don't really know exactly how he moves. Is he a bit of a playboy? A little bit, I don't know. I think he's got a bit of a roster. He's a romantic. It seems like he was enjoying being a single guy, making some money in a big city, which is like why it was like even with Amanda not in the equation, it was more like just, just let's see her know it's like not happening. And stop trying to be friends with someone who's been very clear that like she wants to be friends first with the person that she wants to marry. So like stop pretending she didn't say that. I think in trying to like be sweet unintentionally. See, that's the thing. That try to be sweet, but unintentional part. That's the part I don't buy. And I don't think he is, yeah, I just, he's not stupid. And you can't be that stupid and emotionally. He is emotionally intelligent, right? We all agree that. Yeah. Yeah. West is pretty sharp. So that's, but he pretends to be emotionally confused. You know, and it's just not enough. It doesn't take a lot of strength to say I'm not ready for a ready for a relationship. It takes a lot more to show you're not ready for a relationship, but the person who says I want to be in a relationship, you know, and I think he does the thing where it's just like, I'm not ready. And they just counts the flirting and the, you know, those moments where, you know, it's just like for someone who's in Sierra shoes is looking for hope. And she's looking for a sign and she, you know, she's juggling. I've set a boundary with this guy. And I'm trying to communicate. And there's no way he would listen to what I'm saying and then act that way. If he didn't also mean it. And if he wasn't also confused about his feelings, and he pretended to be confused and in that confusion, she found hope. And I just don't think he didn't, he wasn't that confused. Well, I don't think he's a malicious guy. Just maybe. We don't have to get into semantics. Selfish. Selfish. Selfish. Maybe he's a little selfish. You know, he's got a blooming career and he's out hustling and he's having fun. And I don't know. But you've been friends with Kyle since a long time, probably 10 years. 10 years. Yeah. We don't see each other at time, but like I still consider him a very close friend. I love Kyle. Do you feel whether, I can't imagine he's asked you to, but do you feel like you have to pick sides or does he just are you just? No, he's sweet. Like Kyle is very emotionally intelligent. I don't know if he always comes off on TV because we're all he's drunk a lot of the time and he's having fun and stuff. But like he's sharp. Like he's a CEO of his business and he's a very sharp guy. And he's just, I love what he said. Like remember they did that interview when he was on the street walking his dogs. And he's just like the first thing he said was even in spite of this whole thing and how twisted it could, it is, he's like, I'm just worried about Amanda. Because I know she struggles with depression and like, to people who are ruthless online. It's scary. I remember what it was like. Like, it's not like, oh, hey, Amanda's making a bad decision. She might regret and we should definitely, you know, she deserves some criticism too. Like she's a horrible birch who deserves the burning hell is like, it's like, whoa, can't we just, Jesus, she can't like, damn, can't make a mistake. Well, that's also the thing with like West though, and we've talked about this is that Kyle is the one who got, I mean, maybe kind of fucked over. And then he's still defending Amanda publicly. And then West like, isn't actually really saying anything. And he's the one that's like, I have a question for you. Kyle, you know, we've, he's gotten his fair share of criticism over the years. A lot of people who said, well, we don't really feel bad for Kyle, we feel bad for Sierra. There's no excuse for calling your wife a bitch or, or, or any woman for that matter, if you're a guy, so to make that clear. But I can't help but wonder, do you think there's any truth if someone were to say, as a fan, I'm just a fan, hey, as a fan, this command of it all made me wonder if maybe you can not to excuse what he said, but has Kyle in any way been covering for Amanda over the years where he was willing to take some relationship heat that maybe he felt even that she deserved, but he, he, he was protecting her. And now you're maybe seeing, I've had this exact hunch. Well, I feel bad saying that because I love them both. Wait, now I feel bad, but I've had this hunch before. I don't know. I feel bad gossiping about them. We're doing a podcast. It's a safe place right now. And we're not, listen, we, we don't think either of them are horrible people. Not at all. And I, and I hope there's a path forward for all of them. And I hope this is something that she will look back and be like, yeah, maybe I would have moved differently. I have empathy for the position that Amanda's in, not to excuse her, but I can just see based off everything that's played out, how she got to this decision, whether it's a good decision or not, like people don't make these decisions in a vacuum. Man, the proximity effect is a powerful thing in psychology, right? Just spending that much time around each other. Like you're already pre vetted, you feel safe, drinks are flowing, not normalizing what happened with the situation, but like every show, it happens on every show, every group, but not just show every group of friends I've ever had. Inevitably, someone ends up hooking up with someone in the friend group. And yeah, it's a powerful thing. Anyways, answer that question. Wait, so sorry, I got distracted. Kyle, has Kyle been defending Amanda over the years in ways that we as fans didn't see or appreciate? I think out of respect and love for his wife. Yeah, at times he, he didn't vocalize some things he was frustrated about, but not to excuse his behavior. And do you feel like if the audience heard that, they wouldn't just be like, Kyle's bullshit sad story, it would be like, you know what, he's got a point? Yeah, I do. I do. Switching gears a little bit. Did you watch VPR reboot? I did. I thought it was great. You did. And I've got to hang out with a lot of the cast like Natalie. I interviewed her when she dropped her new song. I think that I get it. Where were you guys at with it? I really enjoyed it. I couldn't. Now I struggle with it. I was, you know, I watched it a little bit. Honestly, I feel like because I watched VPR, I started a while ago and now it's also like, weirdly linked into my job and stuff. And I just have like such a connection with like that show. And so watching the reboot and also watching people like my age to be in the reboot is like a brain break for me. So I'm hard time with it, but that's really specific to me. It's growing on me because I see that they have, there's roots there. They have real authentic friendships. They hang out outside of work. They're always in Sur and they're all Chasen dreams, starting Only Fans. But yeah, I dig it. I still think Sanibel could make a killing on Only Fans. I do too. Tom, I don't know if they're going to be Tom. I think he would go a thousand percent. He is in a relationship. So yeah, well, he would do it. He would. Yeah, I dig it. I like to do, I'm here to vouch for the new Vanderpump rules. Even though they were like, who is Katie Maloney? We don't even know who that is. That was a little spicy. Okay. That was a stray as they call them. It was a stray. I think. It was an honest mistake. I don't think it was. Was it snarky when he said that? I don't think it was. Was Katie? Katie retaliated, I think. She did. Yeah, she showed what she did. Yeah. I do think maybe it was a little snark, but you know. I know you have to get going. We're getting the light as they say. But before we send you off on your way, can you set up the rest of the season of the valley? What can we look forward to? Yeah, why should people watch? Yeah. Well, this is the first. I've always been in a relationship when I've been on TV and I don't know how much of it the cameras caught. Of course, I remember everything we filmed, but like this is the first time in real time I'm falling in love. You get to catch me falling in love in real time. Really happy for you, man. Thanks. And I'm starting my whole life anew, which is kind of terrifying because listen, as you get into your 40s, like unrealized potential gets more and more risky, right? It's just, it's scary, but like I also just feel absolutely dialed in and more motivated than I've ever been in my life. So I'm excited about life. I think it's a really good season. It's a healing season, but I'm scared people will hear that, Nick, and think it's boring because it's not. It's just a healing season. Like a lot of people went through a lot of traumatic things and some dark things. Listen, I just think that's maybe just reality TV. We have a bit of a problem, I think also just as the internet, I think we are too, like it's just a toxic world out there and we're expecting toxicity. Even we say that we don't, but I think we have to push through and we have to watch, you know, we can't, we can't, we can't complain for an entire season how dark the valley is and then have it become lighter only to complain that it's boring. Like it's like we have to, we, and I speak for myself, sometimes we have to pick a lane. I personally could watch you guys go to all seasons and eat it. That's really sweet. You guys are being so sweet. Thank you for the love and thanks for being diplomatic about it. Yeah, it's a healing season and, but there's lots of great nuances and I love just exploring other people's relationships. Seeing them be first time mothers and fathers and yeah, man, it's good. There's a few really good cast trips that I'm excited about. Do you have a difficult time understanding Janet's point of view at times? I do. It's weird because I've been friends with Janet a long time, long before, long time. We're friends. I love Janet and Jason. I'm catching up on all the lore and I'm- Oh, she was like a fan of the show. But we were friends. We hung out. Like we- She'll never live that down, by the way. Janet's never living that. Janet's a fan. No, I- Do you guys like- Wait, has Janet been on the show? Yeah, she's been on the show. Jason too? No. Oh, but yeah, man. She didn't bring them. Listen, it's a good season. It's a healing season. Not boring. Healing, new ones. Not boring at all. Layer. It's a no way boring. Okay, cool. Thank you. I agree. I really am enjoying it aside from when I'm on the- And I come out of my shell too. I apologize for being very, very awkward in the beginning. Just watching myself. I'm like, dude, what are you- Yeah, it's so hard. It's like one of the hardest beginnings of any season ever for me. It's like an old season vet coming out of retirement. You know, you gotta like- It's a little rusty. It takes you a little bit to warm back up, you know? I am a rescue dog for sure. They like me, McQueen and Kars III. Yeah, it's okay. Thomas Forz, thanks for coming by, man. Love you guys. Love you. Love you. Anything else you want to promote? You got a podcast? Yeah, I got a podcast, Detox, Retox. Every Wednesday now, not Tuesdays anymore. And yeah, we got some cool stuff coming up and I got big dreams for the podcast. It's only been a year, but it's hard. People think you just pick up a mic and start talking, which- It's a fucking grime, bro. Dude, it's a grind. We appreciate you. We love you. And thank you guys for listening. Thank you to our guests, Tom Forz and Emily D Baker. And we appreciate you. We will see you back tomorrow. We got Liz from Real Housewives of Rhode Island. Super excited to talk with her. We love him the entire cast in the show. And we got a lot more in store for you tomorrow. So be sure to join us. Thanks for listening. Bye. The Voff House is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing a budgeting game? Well, with the name Your Price Tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at progressive.com, Progressive Casually Insurance Company and Affiliates. Prices and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all states. Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now, and it's great. You love the host, you seek it out and download it. 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