Episode 368: Building Independence and Resilience in Toddlers with Zee Pendleton and Angela Rice

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Between them, they have five daughters and five grandchildren and lovingly say they have an additional child, which is St. George's. These powerhouse ladies have touched the lives of so many children and families over the years, including mine. And we could not be more thrilled to get to have them back on the podcast today. And you all, they have so much wisdom for parents of little. So listen all the way through. Share this with your friends, with young children. There's so much helpful, rich information. We are getting to have another conversation with two of my favorite humans, who have loved on to my other favorite humans in the last few years. And seeing Angela, we just are delighted for you to be with us and trust your voices and your hearts and your wisdom so much in this arena of preschoolers. And where they are today, we were just talking about how different things are in parents that that they're different among kids and among parents. The differences are really pronounced. And I hadn't had a chance to tell you this yet, but I was going to tell you all, I did this interview this morning, which I would be curious if y'all would have the same reaction from a church out of town. And they wanted me to talk about preschoolers and screens. And they had pulled their church, and it's a huge church, pulled their church to find out what the most common questions were. And the first was something like, how do I prevent meltdowns with my preschooler when removing screens? And I said, well, can I back up first? Because I believe that question is more about parental anxiety than anything else. Because your preschooler is going to melt down when screens are removed. They can't regulate themselves yet. And we are seeing this trend and we keep talking about it with parents. And I think it's very well intentioned parents. But I think there's this message they're receiving that if I'm the bad guy, I'm going to disrupt attachment, that that's a big theory. I'm going to damage my relationship forever. I'm going to be the reason they have to see David and Sissy for counseling. That's right. You know, and so there's this fear of I can't say no. And anyway, I just thought when when that question came up, I thought Z and Angel would totally get it. I mean, we just do. We do. You can't you can't be fearful. You cannot be afraid of your child's reaction. Yes. Because if they're doing it too, it's going to continue on throughout. Yes. You know, teenagers, right? Like you've got to get control of that sooner rather than later. Yes, exactly. So if y'all are going to say you're from your vantage point as preschool directors, what feels different about toddlers right now compared to even five years ago? Well, I'm going to let Angel go first because she said I talked the whole time the last time. So there you go. She took over the conversation. And by the way, we've already talked about a lot of this in a introduction about how y'all have been best friends since first grade and all the things that you mean to us and through the world. Well, y'all know what y'all mean to us and to our community. So we're just grateful for y'all also. But you know, I mean, like now these children, it is that anxiety. It is that stress. It's such a young age that we're seeing. Yes. And in my notes with the questions I had put, I was in a classroom a couple of weeks ago and there was this whole boy in the classroom and he was physically shaking, like shaking uncontrollably. And I'm like, what is wrong? And it was the next change. Like it was having to stay for an after school camp. And I've never seen a child physically shake with such anxiety like that before. And that was heartbreaking. Yes. Because there was nothing I could do for him to take that physical shaking away from him. And I think that's just, that's what we see a lot. I mean, going back to technology, I mean, these babies, my 14-month-old granddaughter can swipe. Yes. And it's because she knows that that camera, that phone, that there's something on there that I want. I mean, they are drawn to it. And, you know, I mean, this was a month ago when I'm sitting there and my phone was right there and she's doing this. And I thought, wow, that, I mean, I knew two-year-olds. But I mean, for a just one-year-old, just to do that. And so, you know, I feel like the children aren't getting as much connection now as, you know, I mean, even when we were raising our kids that we didn't have this, you know, yes, we made it, put them in front of the TV and they might have, you know, watched, you know, the line. On VHS. On repeat. But they're just not getting the, you know, the play, you know. Playing with your child is so important. In fact, I texted my girls this morning, I was like, we're doing Angie and I are doing another podcast. And did I play with y'all? I'm not talking about games, but did I sit down and play with y'all? Like, I play with your children and they're like, oh, yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, of course. And I'm like, did I? And then my youngest, Mike Dinchie, goes, no, I think you, I think you have my big sisters. They played. But I mean, you know, now it's such a joy to like, you know, play Lego and ninjas with my grandson. And it's also providing, you know, a good lesson, a teachable moment because he, you know, we were building a couple of weeks ago, he had all these little figurines and he was taking the ones and we were going to have a bore. And that's what, you know, and he was taking the ones that were already May. And I said, well, James, that's not fair. I mean, look how my army is very small because I'm having to put together and he goes, well, I had to put these together at some point. Yeah, yeah. And so, okay, but I mean, just that, you know, and I said, well, you know, if you're playing with a friend, just I'm beginning things. And I think that is maybe what is. It's the interaction with a peer or with a parent. And the screen is not providing interaction with the physical being, whether that's their screen or our screen. Right, right. Yes, because I mean, I feel convicted of that with the boys. Oh, me too. Yeah, I don't. Yeah. And I think about them like, why am I looking at Instagram? I can look at them. Yeah, I know. You know, and I mean, they love to look at pictures, you know, which, you know, okay, we're going back and looking at memories and that's fun, but it's still a screen. Right. And yes, I mean, I'm just as guilty. And, you know, there'll be times I have to tell her, put your phone down, pulling in today. I'm like, she was on her phone. I'm like, no, you need to put your phone down and look at the new edition. Like, look at what they're doing, you know, and we're just, it's. But it's like, you know, you didn't have it. And now all of a sudden it's so important. Right. And that's what children are seeing with their parents or their teachers or all of us. I mean, you can't go anywhere without seeing somebody walking, scrolling, right, at the grocery store, at shopping anywhere. And so, I mean, I get it, but we need to kind of flip it back to actually being together, playing together down on the floor. Yes. You know, let's set up a big thing, a Barbie village, whatever. But yeah. And you know, and I think the parents do have to tell their children, no. Okay. You've had a little bit of screen time. Now we're going to put it away. You can throw your fit, you can have your tantrum, but the, it's going away. And you just set up that expectation from the get-go that. Put a time bomb. There's limits. One episode. And your time is done. And you have your fit. It's okay. Yes. It's so good. Okay. You're answering this next question already and let's just build on it. So where else are you all seeing evidence of kids struggling emotionally, socially, behaviorally in all these years of work? I think there's just so much happening to these children at a younger age. The pressures that are already on them. And we've seen a lot of children at a younger age with bigger issues and. Big feelings. But no one held a control of these feelings. Yes. The self-regulation. How do they communicate that to their family, their friends. And they're over scheduled. They're tired. They come to school tired. And you know, there's needs to be boundaries and limits, you know, and consistency in your daily routines, which I feel like when you've got all this going on. And I mean, this isn't anything that the average person doesn't know when you become a parent. But I think in today's society, it's just hard to do well. So it's signed up for tennis and so on. So signed up for soccer. And we got to do this. We got to do this. And you know, we're going to grab dinner on the way home and going to go to church on Wednesday nights and all of it is good stuff. Right. But it's just the children are worn out and tired. And I think that has an effect. Well, and to hear y'all say that, I mean, I think you are seeing those kids first hand coming in in the mornings and to see them tired. I mean, I think that's sobering to me and convicting that we really do need to do something different. And we started at 8.30. So when they go off to kindergarten and they've got an extra hour and a half to their day. But you know, it is a big adjustment. It is a big adjustment. So, you know, it's like I said, they're all going to be okay. But I feel like there's just something missing now. There's just a layer of what are these kids going to look like 10 years from now? Yes. It's kind of scary. I mean, and I say that speaking, you know, I have grandchildren that are these aged children and just thinking, oh gosh, you know, I mean, everything, what technology is going to be out there. And we all have to remind ourselves about the phone and the screen time. We do. Right. And now we're going to take a little break to hear from one of our sponsors who makes this podcast possible. Okay. I was recently in the airport and a mom stops me and says she listened to the podcast. She whispered something in her son's ear and then her son looks at me very seriously and says, wait right here. He unzips his suitcase and pulls out his bottle of high of vitamins. He did not. He did. Full proof traveling with them like they were essential carry on items. It was incredible. And honestly, that's what I love about high as so many kids vitamins on the market are basically candy. Some have up to seven grams of sugar and artificial dyes. 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With a 100 day risk free trial, free shipping and returns, you can experience this game changing cookware with zero risk. And now back to our show. Well, let's flip it a little bit to some strengths. What are some strengths you're seeing in kids today that might surprise parents? They can do it. I mean, they can do it if they are allowed to do it. And we say that again. That's the point. They have to be allowed to do it. Is it easier to carry them in and carry their bag? Yeah, it is. Is it easier to put on their coat, not teach them how to put on their coat? Yeah, it sure is. And faster. And faster. Mm-hmm. But the looks on their faces when they come in and they can carry that back or that lunchbox, you know, they are so proud of themselves when they walk in the door that they can do it. And that helps with the separation from a parent. You know, it just helps if they are being independent and doing things for themselves. And I mean, I often say give them chores. Even a two or three-year-old, take your cup to the sink. Take your plate and put it away. Your socks go in the dirty hamper. And that in itself is teaching two-step directions, which they're, you know, they're very expressive now, children. They know all these words. I mean, my granddaughter said the other day I was FaceTiming screen. But she had these little ducks and one was off to the side. And she goes, she's just sad and frustrated. And I said, and she's two and a half. And I said, frustrated. She goes, she's sad and frustrated. And so they know these words, but like they, you know, it's just hard for them to, to really know what some of these words mean. Yes, or know what to do with them. Exactly. So big feelings and not being able to control them. Yes. Yes. Because I think they lose control and their parents are saying, you're frustrated. I hear you. You're frustrated. The gentle parenting. The gentle parenting. The gentle parenting. Tell me about why you're frustrated. Right. Right. And not helping them learn to work through it. Right. Yeah. Okay. We've talked about some differences in kids. Can we talk about some differences in parents? Sure. Would love to hear you all speak more to differences you're observing with parents in this particular season. And also, what are parents caring that maybe they weren't caring before? I think parents technology, they're again, it's the technology, it's the keeping up with the Joneses. Lives are on Instagram. Yes. On the Facebook. They're, they're seeing these snapshots in other people's lives and yeah, it all looks great, but really when they go home at the end of the day, it's not all great. They're not showing the bad things, the bad parts of the day, the hard parts of the day. It's just the good parts and that's not reality. And these people, they see it and it's the pressure of, well, my family has to look happy like that. You know, so there again, it's that technology component and I think parents are too busy. You know, they're busy in their lives and then like Z said, they've got their, their children doing so many different things and they're busy. You know, they just need to slow down, be in the moment, live in the moment with your children and enjoy the time because it is fleeting, which we talked about. And I think it's being busy and having all these activities. It's hard to be consistent with your discipline. Yeah. You know, so again, it goes back to everything. I am, you know, I'm just tired, so I'm going to do it for them. Oh gosh, we're up till 8.39 again. Oh gosh, you know, it's the weekend, we're going to be up to 10. So, and I was a parent too and I honestly have no idea how I got through it. I still, the village, it takes a village to raise children. We were each other's village. We still are, no matter how old our children are, you know, you have to surround yourself with an awesome community that has good intentions and wants good things for you and your family. And life's not fair. You know, the same values. No, it's not fair. And you're not their friend. You've got to, right now, if you don't set the limits and boundaries, I mean, once that horse gets out of the stable, I mean, it's going to get a good burden. It's funny to see some of the children that are now high school, age or college and see, oh yeah, that's, I mean, We called that back in the day. Uh-huh. You know, but now that's all that was going to turn out. Yeah, it's just, it's very, it is just. It's a different world. Yeah. You know, then a couple of years ago, and I think for years we've seen a gradual change, but for some reason this year, it's been a drastic change. That's so interesting. In the parenting and the parents, and you know, we, we discuss this a lot, you know, what, what is causing this change? Yes. What is the difference? Yeah. And I just, we don't know. I mean. Yeah. Well, I'm so glad for y'all to say that, and it reminds me this new book that we have coming out, which we want to give y'all each one today. Yes, can't wait to read it. But it's been so interesting that there have literally every time we post about the changes, and we've been calling it this crisis of capability, there are three educators who say, thank you so much, please talk more about this. We're seeing this in our classroom every day from preschool through high school, and, and I think parents that are listening, I mean, really your kids teachers spend as much time almost with your kids as you do. Correct. And they are seeing it, and they're seeing the changes among not just your child, and your child may be really capable, but they're surrounded by other kids who are struggling, and we've got to be paying attention. We've got to do something to write the shift. You know, yes. Partners in preschool, elementary, high school, and, you know, and that you need us, we need you. Everybody benefits. It's a win-win if we all are on the same team. Yes. And I think what we've seen a lot in definitely the last couple of years is that's your job to do that. I can't possibly teach them their phone number, and not that anybody's ever said that, but they're not learning their phone number. We can't teach them all this stuff, and then it not be practiced at home. Yes. Oh, but school is where they need to be learning this. 100% agree. However, you know, you're not asking us to teach algebra because that's, you are going to pay somebody to do that or whatever, but for us, we're trying to help these children be socially and emotionally ready to go to the next phase. And I mean, I'm just not sure that all of them aren't prepared, you know. Yes. Yes. And it takes partnership to get them there, as you said. Definitely. Yeah. So you've addressed this a little, but where do you all see parents unintentionally getting in the way of building capability in this stage of life with the best of intentions so often? Yeah. I mean, I think it's like, like we said, carrying their child's bag in or letting them carry it in, giving them basic skills to help them succeed down the road and be confident. And they have to be willing to let their children make mistakes. Yeah. Do it. That's the biggest thing. And make the mistakes because it's okay. We all make mistakes in life. Yes. And it's okay. Yes. It's okay to make mistakes. Don't feel the pressure that you cannot make a mistake. Yeah. I mean, they don't want them to hurt for anything and I get that. I don't want mine to hurt for anything. But at the same time, if they don't, then they don't learn to be capable. Yes. Right. And, you know, that's what we all want. We want them to be strong, capable adults. Right. Right. And now a quick break to hear from one of our incredible sponsors who make the podcast available. Okay. The weather in Nashville right now, unreal. Blue skies 75 degrees. How grateful are we? One sunny afternoon, Connie announces, we need to redo the front porch. And thanks to Wayfair, we did. It's wayday at Wayfair from April 25th through the 27th. You can score the best deals in home like up to 80% off with free shipping on everything. We found new outdoor rugs, fresh cushions, and this beautiful little table that makes our porch look like it belongs in a magazine. And I bet the neighbors noticed. They did. June was laying on the new rug and she looks like she is ready for a Wayfair photo shoot. What I love about Wayfair is how easy it is to find exactly what works for your style and budget. The filters, the reviews, the Wayfair verified badge, which means their team bets everything with a 10 point inspection. It just makes you confident you're getting something quality. 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And we were talking and we were at this one and I said, to me, it's very interesting. I used to have parents in my office two or three times a week sitting, asking advice, wanting to talk. And now they're not asking questions. They're not in my office. They are seeking questions, answers from chat GPT. They're not coming to us. You know, the professionals that established, they don't want the advice or the knowledge. And so more often than not, I mean, we will have these conversations, but we're initiating them. And so, okay, so what do you mean? I mean, my four and a half year old needs to be potty trained. What do I need to do? Well, I mean, if your child's four and a half and you're not working on this at home, then, these are some real, that's really going on. And they don't want to hear that, why don't we just work on some fine motor or some, oh, no, no, no, no. I mean, and it is harder and harder where it used to be, we would make a recommendation and they'd be, oh, thank you so much for being here. Grateful for any of this. And that we could get them. We're not putting a mark on your child. We're just trying to help your child. And, you know, and behavioral, I mean, you know, we just have to say, listen, this is what we're seeing your child is a bull in a china shop. And he's been, you know, saying stuff on the playground to others because they're playing, what is that, K-pop dance hunters or something. That was his name. And I was like, what is K-pop dance hunters? Oh, no, I had to ask. Is it a cartoon? My six year old grandson. What is that? And he had watched it. I did not know what that was. And, yeah, I mean, and so I think there's just, so they're hearing these big words and repeating them and they don't know what they are. They don't know what murder is, but they're, you know, I'm going to come to your house. And, you know, you can't say that, right? The parents don't want to hear the negative part. And no parent wants to hear anything negative about their child. But when we're saying it to them, we're doing it with the best intentions to get them the help and the guidance that they need. And, you know, we do know early intervention works and it is the best life changing course to take. And these parents, a lot of them don't want to hear that. They don't want to hear it until it's almost too late. So when a toddler is struggling with big emotions or dysregulation, we're asking on their behalf, what does helping them build regulation actually look like in real time? And I'm going to even back that up. Or maybe it's a part two of the question. But I do, I mean, we are trying to refer to occupational therapists a lot. And that's something you all do so beautifully. So when you talk about how to build regulation, but also when that feels important, because the two are certainly tied together. Yes. Right. And I mean, I think we have a yoga teacher now. And who teaches yoga movements sometimes. And it's amazing because it teaches them the calming exercises, the breathing exercises and how to self-regulate, which is, I mean, hard to teach, you know. Right. And it's also part of our curriculum, which goes with everything else. And so we try to say, hey, parents, if they're having trouble calming down, let's do this. Ms. Kimme says, blow bubbles or, you know, whatever Ms. Kimme says. Take a deep breath. Yeah. You know, three deep breaths. Yes. And offering simple choices is just to not overwhelm them. If you say, okay, what do you want for a snack? We're going to, you know, and you give them five choices. Well, of course they're, they are overwhelmed. And they, so sometimes offering two choices. Simplify it. Make it sell. And I think once you learn to do that, it makes everything easier, you know. The night before, hey, which outfit do you want to wear? Right. One or the other. And it's hard. It's not, you know, it's not easy, you know, any of this. And you just, you have to be in the moment and try to help them get down on their levels, see what they're seeing, you know, talk about what, what they feel inside. Yes. And just try to understand their big emotions that they have. Okay. It's a beautiful transition into this next question. Let's talk a little bit about building agency with kids in this space developmentally. So what would you all say are just some small everyday ways with toddlers? What are simple kind of real world reps? Spending time with your children, limiting the screen time. As I said before, be in the moment with your children. Give them the love and the support that they need. Show them that. Tell them how much you love them and support them. And just try to build their self-esteem and build them up. And let them do things on their own. Yes. And if they fail, it's okay. I mean, we all are going to fail. It's something, but it helps them be more capable. You know, when I'm just piggyback on what she said, playing with them, I think that's just, it does go by so fast. And like, I can't even remember if I'm girls. I hope I played with you. You did. You had Polly Pocket. She liked the Polly Pocket to Barbie's. I remember how you lined the bins up. Well, good. I'm glad you remember. Yes, I remember. But it goes by so fast. And then all of a sudden, your grandparent, and you do get to remember all the fun stuff. Because I mean, you're living in that moment. And that's not what I think as parents, it's, you know, it was fast and furious when we were doing it. And I know it is now. And it's hard. It's not easy. And it's the hardest thing. It's what I told my girls. The hardest two things you will do is staying married and raising your children. And it, I mean, but you do it. And I think we're now spoiled because we get to do it with our grandchildren. You know, we have learned. And I think as a parent, you know, these are things people can tell you, but you do have to live it. You have to learn it on your own. And for the majority of them, I hope for them that, you know, they do enjoy it and embrace that time because it is so fleeting. And like he said, in the blink of an eye, all of a sudden you're sitting there playing with your own children and then you turn around and now you're playing with your grandchildren. But, you know, we don't take for granted. I mean, how lucky we are to have that role that we get to do that. You know, but I think it's come with life lessons. Yeah, it has to. I can't even remember if I did it. I know you did. You're good. You did. Well, how lucky those grandchildren are to have the dream. Well, they are the, I mean, both of us adore our grandchildren. It's crazy. My husband and I are obsessed with our two. It's awful fun. It's just like, you know, the boys. I mean, it is absolutely the, you know, Brad and I, my husband say it is the only thing in life that's not overrated. Being a green beard. That's a great statement. It is amazing. And we were just there being parents. I mean, yesterday. And we're not. We were just little girls playing in the dollhouse. That's right. Y'all were. And together. I don't want to question all these parents because I do know it's hard. And I know that. In times of, you know, life is hard. Right. Everything in life is hard. Parenting, work, social life. It is all hard. And if you're seeing all these other people at these great homes and great trips and, you know, oh, their children are going so and so. I mean, it is hard and it's hard not to want to keep up. Yes. You know, I get that. I mean, I again, influence. We're all guilty of that to some degree. We all see something and go, oh, wish I had that. You know, the grass is always greener. Right. Yeah. That's right. So be thankful for what you have. Yes. Yes. So thinking about the parent who feels stuck or feels like, I just don't know if I'm getting it right. Y'all have said so many great things. Are there two to three things you would say, I really want you to focus on this in today's time? Let them fail. I think that is one of the biggest things because it's so hard. And I think it's at any point in life, you don't want, you want your child to succeed no matter what, but learning the basics. Sometimes they got to make a mistake, stand up, get up, do it again. And that's hard. I mean, even to watch my grandchildren and, you know, for my daughters to tell me something they did and their punishment or whatever. And I'm like, oh my gosh, are you kidding me? But yeah, I mean, I think that would be my biggest thing to let them have the opportunity to fail and be consistent with discipline, boundaries or everything. And I say that because my husband was a very big boundary guy. And if I'd had to do it, I am a softie. I'm a softie with everybody around me. I mean, I am, she'll tell you, teachers, parents, kids, I am. And so I'm thankful that he was, he drew the line in the sand and they didn't step over it very often. But you're right. I mean, boundaries matter so much. And we keep talking about this, but we, it is amazing how many parents will do parent consults with and we'll talk about boundaries and they'll look at us like, really, you can still do that in this day and time. You can, you're hearing it from all four of us. Yes, yes. Boundaries, create security. Yes, it does, they need that. Yes, and maintain security of kids. It's both. I mean, I know boundaries. Tell them what I'd be like if I didn't have boundaries. And I think it doesn't matter, like my children 35, 30, and I still don't know if I'm doing it right. That's true. In this life, you just do the best you can. Yes. And you pray that you're doing the right thing. But you know, I question myself, even at this day and time. Sure. You know, oh, maybe I shouldn't have done that. Maybe I shouldn't have said this, but I do the best I can. Right. Y'all, we're so grateful for the two of you. We're so grateful that you wanted us back. Y'all, and to be here. We just like, we just love y'all in this place. And it's just so happy. To the Nashville community is really. Well, right back at you guys. Yeah, that's the truth. And I want to say this too, before we wrap up, I keep thinking back on the two of you answering that question about how parents really aren't asking questions and how troubled I am by your answer to that. And I want to say to parents. It's very sad. It is. And I want to say to parents listening, you know, let's remind ourselves all AI can do is offer us information. That's all it can do. It's just access and offer information. It cannot offer wisdom and what the two feelings, there's no feeling or perspective and what the two of you have done throughout our conversation. What you have to offer all these parents is wisdom, decades of lived experience, professional experience. And so I just want to remind parents, like, please consider that because you all are reminding us, like there's just a wealth of wisdom between the two of you that parents need access to. So wisdom over information. And we love to talk to them. Yes, we do. I mean, our doors are always open. I have Kleenex sitting right there. You can come cry. You can talk. We can do whatever kind of like y'all here. We'll do whatever we need to do. And while you may not have Zee and Angel at your school, which I'm sorry that you don't, that's to be listening, you have somebody that's on your child's table. Yes, exactly. And the value of the wisdom and the value of getting to watch your child when you're not there. Yes. And the things that you see in terms of their interactions with peers, the places they might struggle that we don't get to see sometimes when we're living with them. It is invaluable. The two of you are invaluable. Well, I would just encourage any parent looking for advice to look to someone who's been through it. I mean, a parent with older children or somebody you respect at your church or your school, a family member who's been through. I mean, my girls call me all the time, what do you think this is okay? Like, yes, I think this is okay. I do. Do you think I did this right? Yeah. I think, you know, but I do think it's hard because every, I mean, I think what did we do without Google? Right. I mean, you know, we talked to each other. All right. We called each other on the phone and said, oh my gosh, this happened. I mean, we had fun conversations. We weren't texting. And there's not even that anymore. You know, it was, you know, actually speaking to each other. Yeah. And I mean, it is going back to, you know, the swiping, you know, they're also walking around with the phone, you know, to their, you know, just like they're playing with imitating. They're imitating mom and dad. Wow. Or their grandmother. Or their yaya. Or their yaya. But y'all are the best. We're y'all are the best. Oh, you know, we're so grateful. Yes, we are. David, what a team we have that we get to call friends who help make this podcast possible. Chris Sterrett, our engineer. Our management team at KCH. And we are thrilled to be a part of the That Sounds Fun Network. Our music was created by the insanely talented Dave Haywood of Lady A. And if this podcast felt helpful to you, please consider subscribing, liking, sharing all the things. We are grateful for you and cheering you on always.