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I would say, I think there are reasons for this that I'll go into, but out of every sort of Let Be thing I have consumed, I would say the Netflix documentary made me feel, I am demoted the most it made me feel like most like in like pit of my stomach like this is so grim yeah but I do wonder whether I just haven't been across it as much as you I think the thing that really got me is when they go to arrest her for the second time and she's just sat there that is a broken person like that is what a mentally ill bottom of the barrel depressed losing touch with reality person looks like yeah and that I've I've seen I've obviously seen like clips of it I've never seen it i've never seen the whole thing before and that i was like yeah that is an unwell woman it was i also felt very much a lot of things watching this netflix documentary i think the scene in particular where she's saying goodbye to her cat that for some reason made me feel really upset and i was like oh god um and then of course having the mother of baby zoe who died in the Countess of Chester Hospital, speaking about her experiences there. That was also incredibly heartbreaking to witness, to watch a mother who lost a child like that talking about the pain that she went through. So all round, yes, very emotive documentary for sure. And I think when Netflix said they were going to drop this episode, we knew for maybe about two weeks before this happened that they were going to do this. And I was excited to hear that Netflix were going to do this. I think that we are still waiting, obviously, to hear what the Criminal Case Review Commission is going to do, whether they are going to kick Lucy Letby's case back into the appeals court. Like that decision hasn't been made yet. And notoriously, that's not something they love to do in this country. So I felt like it's good that Netflix are doing this because the more pressure on them, the better. That's my opinion on it. I was surprised to say watching it though as much as I felt things because there was definitely a lot more police interview footage a lot more body cam footage of Lucy Letby than I had ever seen before and I had really like you said dug into this case quite a lot and that was interesting to just have more eyes and ears on like what was actually going on but I didn't feel like there was that much new that came out of this. No there wasn't I thought they spun it in a very good way they told a very very good story. The way they flip it around in the middle was very well done centering around one baby, very clever because, you know, it is easier to feel for one family than it is for 17. Yeah. So as story spinners, they did a really good job with it, I thought. But there isn't anything new there. So there couldn't be anything that they, they put in, I suppose, the only video format feature film documentary out there that has you know the suspicion the initial arrest the bail the rearrest then the new yorker article then the press conference with julie and then going from then it hasn't ever been in one place before that's exactly apart from on our feet yeah no absolutely netflix a lot of the stuff that had come out previously to this didn't include that very, very, to me, pivotal press conference that was held. And so I think having it all in one place, so it's not like this scattergun sort of take on a very, very big case. I think that's very good. I think what I found a bit challenging about it is, it's very unusual for Netflix or anybody really to be doing a one parter, like a one part true crime documentary. I was like pleasantly surprised it was an hour and a half. But then I was also, at the end of it, felt a bit unsatisfied because I thought while they included clips from the press conference and they had a very brief interview with Dr. Lee, I felt like there were still things that they should have dug into more, like the fact that in the press conference, they absolutely refute the idea of synthetic insulin being in these babies. And I felt like that for a lot of people was the smoking gun. You can kind of look at the stats. You can look at the rosters. You can look at all these things. And people were like, hmm. You tell people there's synthetic insulin in two babies that shouldn't have been there. Bam, it's murder. And they do include the clip of Dr. Shuley saying there were no murders. But I think I would have liked to see them pull out more clips from that, frankly, enormous press conference, particularly the part where they were saying about there was no synthetic insulin. These babies, all babies, particularly preterm babies, have a very, very difficult time managing their blood sugar levels. There was confusion. There was a lot of incompetence on that ward. And I don't think they really hammered that point home that there wasn't synthetic insulin. From a panel of like absolutely eminent pediatric experts from across the world saying that, I think that would have been really, really powerful. And they didn't do that. No, they did the opposite. Yeah. They did literally the opposite. there was synthetic insulin in those babies. Someone had to put it there, the end. They said that and then they didn't offer the opposite. Yes, they didn't do the... Which for a lot of people you hear that and then it doesn't matter what else you hear because that is such a like, bam. Yeah. I did think though when Mark McDonald when he talking about the rota and I know we said in the update that it was kind of just made to look more damning than it was I actually think I don believe that anymore Like she was there every single time. It wasn't made to look like she was. And Mark McDonald in the documentary said, well, you know, she was more experienced. She'd done more courses. So it would be odd if she wasn't there with the sickest babies. Okay, fine. She was there. every time that is irrefutable and it's circumstantial i take that but she was i don't take the point that she was there every time because in the update this is what we spoke about i think they explained this incredibly poorly again in the documentary because my point is they honed down on 17 babies some of whom do who died some of whom collapsed right the problem was when that fucking dr dewey evans got the list from the doctors of total number of collapses and total number of deaths. There was more like 26. There was way more than they end up picking. And he just decides after he's seen who the suspect is, which 17 he was going to pick. There was no explanation ever given for why if you had, say, 20, and I can't remember off the top of my head exactly, because I haven't got it in my notes, but say 26 odd collapses and deaths of babies. There was no explanation from Dr. Evans as to why he picked 17 out of those 26. Why could he explain some of those 26 when those babies died in the exact same circumstances, but he couldn't explain 17? That's my problem. Out of 26, if you picked any random 17 and drew up a roster, you could pick any nurse who was there for all 17, if you see what I mean. If there was only 17 and Lucy was there for all of them, that is powerful circumstantial evidence and I wouldn't refute that. But there wasn't only 17. There was more. He chose 17 with no explanation as to why those 17 were chosen. and why, say, another nine were disregarded. That was my problem with it because that, to me, feels like you are cherry-picking the ones that you want. Why are you choosing those? And he never gave an explanation as to why. And that was one of the main points that Dr. Shuli makes, is what is the difference between this baby whose death or collapse was disregarded and this baby's death or collapse that was included in that list? And that's the problem for me with that information. But they explained it so poorly in the documentary. Yeah, I mean, so poorly I'd forgotten. I was watching it and I was like, why are you saying it like this? Why are you not explaining it? Like that to me, again, felt really infuriating because the way in which the cases were picked and the synthetic insulin, for me, were the two things that turned my opinion on this, right? And both of those were explained very, very poorly in that documentary. Yeah, and I can understand why they did it. It's more dramatic. Absolutely. Yeah, I would say basically I've gone from thinking she didn't do it to thinking, I'm not, I don't know. I don't know why you would keep a file of notes in your house that labelled keep. I don't know. I think there were weird things. But again, I feel like there was a lot of dramatisation around some of that where the police were like, there were asterisks in her diary on the day the babies died. And I was like, because they were significant days. Yeah, no, that I can. But taking hospital documentation home to your house and keeping it in a folder labelled keep. Again. Don't like. Look, I would say I still, because, not just because of the Lucy Letby case, but because this same evidence, this same like roadmap of evidence has been used to convict other nurses in other countries in like staggeringly the same way. and the fact that in those countries because appeals are easier to do and i don't mean like the bar is lower i mean like you can literally get an appeal and they had actual experts called in their defense which lucy let me did not have and they have been proven to be not guilty i just feel like i don't think she's guilty i don't think she did this i also think another thing that they don't talk about in this documentary which again feels like a real missed point is since all this happened, the NHS maternity wards around the country have been under so much scrutiny for how terrible they are. Like, that's just the facts of the matter. Like, there have been multiple maternity wards that have been, like, deemed to be completely not fit for purpose in terms of maternal care, in terms of baby care. Babies are dying, mothers are dying, very, very poor outcomes. And I feel like in this documentary, it's kind of repeated this idea of, like, well, why would we say this? Why would we say that Lucy Lepi was a killer? We have no reason to say this. And I'm like, you have every incentive to say this because your hospital was failing. Your hospital was failing at doing its job. You were letting mothers and babies suffer. Like even the mother of the baby who died had to accept after Dr. Shu Li said in the press conference, that mother should have been given antibiotics and she wasn't, or she was given them far too late. This is not an isolated hospital in which this was happening. This is happening everywhere. They had a particular spike of this problem going on. And the consultants, as far as I feel like, and I say the opposite in the very first episode we did, they're covering their arses because the nurses there were saying they were never there. They were never on call. We were left with babies that we were not adequately prepared or trained to look after. And Dr. Shuli and the panel of doctors who chaired that panel went through every single case and found, and this is the really powerful thing to me, there were no murders in his opinion and in the opinion of all of these doctors every single one of those babies died as a result of poor treatment negligence or just because that baby wasn't going to survive anyway and i think for me it's not i still can't even get to the point where i'm like did lucy let me do it or not because i can't even get past the initial hurdle of were there even crimes or not other than gross negligence on the part of the hospital and they sort of just say at the end the countess of chester hospital is now being investigated for like corporate manslaughter and i'm like yeah yeah because they were doing a fucking piss poor job and i think that it was easier for them to say not we have a gross incompetency problem we have one person who is sabotaging our efforts one nefarious person and we've got rid of her now and everything's fine and they say after lucy let me left we didn't have any more deaths because they got downgraded and they got such sick babies taken away yeah starting a business can be overwhelming you're juggling multiple roles designer marketer logistics manager all while bringing your vision to life shopify helps millions of business sell online build fast with templates and ai descriptions and photos inventory and shipping sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify that shopify it time to see what you can accomplish with shopify by your side yeah i think all of those things are true and it obviously makes complete sense that the ward getting downgraded meant less babies died but i also think the nhs has been fucked for years yeah i don't think any of this is is new stuff so such a spike i don't know if it's necessarily indicative of anything but an ongoing problem but i also think the police investigators that they haven't you know we've watched many a documentary like this they said what they always say whenever there's a public inquiry i stand by it stand by it we dealt with the evidence we were given and this is the conclusion we came to and we did we did the right thing yeah every single time of course they're gonna say that And look, they dealt with the evidence they were given because they went and sought out the evidence they wanted. Because they went to Dr. Dewey Lewis, one man, one man, and got him to look at it. Within 10 minutes of looking at those files, he was like, there's been foul play here. Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah. When there is a panel full of incredibly much more experienced, much higher qualified doctors who were sat in that room, who did the panel, who said there were no murders here. But this one man was enough to convince Cheshire police there has been foul play here. This man is very, very questionable. And I'm glad they say in the documentary that a senior judge also questioned his reliability and his credibility. This doesn't have anything maybe to do with his credibility. But this is also a man who at one point in his life advocated for the decriminalization of sex between minors and adults. So let's just, you know, put that out there. Everyone. They're everywhere. Everyone's a pedophile. Go on. I think he enjoyed the attention he wanted to be a part of a case like this. I find his evidence and his takes on this incredibly fraudulent, to be perfectly honest. And I thought when you watch the documentary and there's police interview footage of detectives talking to Lucy Lettby and one point where I literally laughed out loud where the detective says when they took her into interview, they said, we wanted to give her the opportunity to provide us with an alternative explanation for why these babies died. and I was like are you serious are you fucking serious apparently all of the doctors on that maternity ward all the consultants on that maternity ward and your fucking medical expert singular say they don't know Dr. Dewey Evans says I don't know why these babies died and that's why it's suspicious but you're gonna pull her in and be like what's an alternative explanation for why these babies died if you didn't kill them to a nurse like that is the most Kafka-esque thing I've ever heard because you're basically saying if you can't provide an alternative explanation then you killed them yeah and i'm like what sort of a ridiculous line of questioning is that like you should be asking that question to multiple medical experts not to the person you're accusing because if she doesn't have an answer then by default that means she killed them yeah yeah yeah like what a bizarre thing to say like i just did not understand that and then they also said the bit about even lucy let me accepted there was synthetic insulin in two of the baby's systems because that's what you've told her because that's what you told her that is a complete irrelevant point to me because to me Dr. Shuley and those other doctors said that wasn't the case and that point shouldn't have even been included we shouldn't even be talking about that anymore and I also think that not enough felt like it was made of how shocking a defense Lucy Letby got the fact that not one expert not one medical expert was called in her defense they couldn't because the defense wouldn't speak to them it said at the end they were like Lucy Letby's defence refused to but they could have made the point that i don't know why mark mcdonald didn't say i don't know why people didn't make the point they're in court maybe it's like a legal thing that they had to be there to defend themselves like right of refusal maybe but it's it's absolutely diabolical to me it just feels completely like look the first question for me is were there murders or not i can't even get past that point if people can get past that point i don't often like to say, well, this person's guilty, but they didn't get a fair trial and therefore, you know, we need to look at this. I don't think she got a fair trial and I don't think she's guilty. That's kind of where I stand. But I also don't even think there were any murders. I think that the hospital doesn't want to be liable to all of those families whose babies died as a result of negligence because that is what Dr. Shuley and all of these other doctors are saying. And, you know, people can be like, who is he to comment on the NHS? Who gives a fuck if it's the NHS or if it's a private hospital? He is a doctor. Those people are doctors on that board was also the head the chief head of pediatrics in this country she sided with dr shu lee this wasn't some like external like outside of the uk coming in to point fingers there were lots of british people on that panel as well including the head of royal pediatrics in this country so i don't know it just felt like i i can't even get past step one with this i think that's that's actually quite a good way of putting it it's like before you have a murderer you have to have a murder. Yeah. And if you don't... If you can't even prove that, then what business do you have putting a woman in prison for the rest of her fucking life? This isn't even one of those cases that someone was definitely murdered, but there was a poor, unfair trial that has led to a dangerous conviction, and therefore we need to relook at whether she is guilty or not. And even if you think she is guilty, you need to have due process in this country and the trial wasn't fair and therefore she should be released. I'm not even having that conversation. I'm like... who was murdered? These babies died and it is horrific that that happened. But to me, the blame lays somewhere else and it is still going on in other hospitals. Oh, totally. I also laughed out loud. I can't remember which one, but one of the elderly men that's in this, but he was like, well, it was adjudicated by three judges. Jury found her guilty. It was Dr. Evans. Oh, right. And I was like, are you all right? That's a ridiculous thing to say. It is a ridiculous thing to say. Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl. That's shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. and i'll be honest like watching this whole thing i'm glad it happened i hope this puts pressure on the review board and i think she has been absolutely railroaded by the state and the prosecution and i think that already in this country when it comes to our judicial system there is such a lack of transparency There is such a lack of transparency We do a lot of American cases. And like, we're recording one later today of Brendan Banfield. I sat yesterday and literally watched hours and hours and hours of court footage. Everything is out there. You can make arguments for whether that is appropriate and whether that is a good thing or not. But I think we are living in the total flip side where everything is so untransparent that I think that is just not a good thing at all. And I think that I don't know what's going to happen here. We have a very, very arrogant system that protects prosecutors, barristers and judges. I think it's like the old boys club. I don't think it's there to... Oh, yeah. I think that's a fact. I don't even think that's an opinion. It's not there to protect the people. And that's why. Why else would you need such? Is it opaic? What's the opposite of transparency? Opaqueness. Opaqueness. Why would you need it to be so opaque? Why would you need it to be so opaque? Because they're all fucking children. That's why. That's why we're not allowed to look. No. And I just think that this whole like very closed off system we have in the UK where nobody can know anything or our appeal system is an absolute nightmare. Like if this was the US, Lucy Letby would already be on her next appeal because just the fact of her poor defence, she would have another appeal. in this country that will never happen because the justice system protects those who are in power. It does not. It's not there to protect people. And this is why I think some people might use this case to even point to why we should get rid of jury trials. If anything, this to me points to the opposite. Why the fuck would we want? I have many opinions about jury trials. None of them have even come across my brain hole while thinking about this one. The jury doesn't come into it at all. The jury made the decision they made based on the medical evidence that they were presented with. They did nothing wrong. Lucy Lepi's defense and the police, in my opinion, they're the ones to blame. And the prosecution, obviously, as well, because what business did the CPS have looking at the evidence that the police had collected and not say, you need more medical experts to sign off on this. Instead, yeah, let's go to fucking trial with this. So, no, I think that if anything, there needs to be more transparency, there needs to be more accountability. And I don't think that the state should be given any more power to be judge, jury and fucking executioner. Because look at what they've done, even when they had a jury. They tricked them. I just feel very heartbroken for all of the families. And I think they deserve to know the truth about what happened to their children. And as much as it might make them feel vindicated or slightly, not that it's ever going to make you feel better. Why would it make you feel better that your baby got murdered rather than died of negligence? But it might make them feel like some justice was done that Lucy Letby is in prison. But if that's not real justice, then that is false. They should know the truth about what happened. and I have every sympathy for them. This isn't like, let's stir all this up to hurt those people. But Lucy Letby, in my opinion, doesn't deserve to spend the rest of her life in prison. I think this is a gross miscarriage of justice. I don't know. I didn't learn loads from the documentary, but I'm not going to tell her. No, but you flipped me again. So yeah, free Lucy Letby. But one thing we have not discussed. Can I be digitally anonymised? So when Lucy Letby's mate that she went to uni with, they digitally anonymised her face. I missed that. brev it is it that's why she looks so good so i wasn't i was like watching it with one eye because i was crocheting an axolotl don't ask um and then i looked at and look i was like god that light's amazing she looks great and looked again and there's like a thing in the top right hand corner that said digitally anonymized i want to be digitally anonymized she looked amazing oh i didn't i'm completely that that's how good ai is getting my friend there you go um i must have been typing my notes and looking at my laptop instead of looking at her because no that that makes sense you very easily could have missed it but it's her mate from uni yeah yeah and yeah what if a very sensible decision oh absolutely because i was watching it and i was like this is incredibly brave of you to be going out there with your face yeah defending her i mean i know i'm doing that but it's different when you're her friend oh no and when people can you know hound you in the street for writing her letters in prison like absolutely it's unsafe for her to you know have her face out there and I'm not asking for a before and after yeah but like it was so good wow okay I missed that entirely that's very interesting that makes a lot more sense now because I was quite shocked by her appearance in it um I also thought like I know Mark McDonald's in it and I know Dr. Shuley's in it but it felt very much like for a lot of it there's all these other people talking like detectives and stuff like that and Dr. fucking Evans whatever credit you want to give him and then it's just And then here on Lucy's side is just her mate from uni. I was like, anyway, anyway, look, I think I've made my point. I think you have. And you've changed my mind once more. Look, I think somebody commented on our update, which was something that really stood like stuck with me. And I'm sorry, I can't remember who it was that said this. If it was you, please comment again. And she said, however many changes of mind it takes, as long as it's in the pursuit of truth, it doesn't matter. and I was like I agree. That's true it's okay to change your mind as we say on this show very often. As long as your pursuit is always the truth then I think that's fair enough. Yeah. And I'll be honest when I make a mistake the first time we did the episode. That's true yeah. I look back on that and I I'm not happy with that that's not that's not right that's why we wanted to correct it in the update that we did which is a very long episode that we released that hopefully you guys just listened to and after this documentary I I stand by that I stand by that I think the documentary She did a good job pulling everything together, but did a very poor job in explaining and digging into the nuances of the things that we have discussed in the update. But are you not entertained? Exactly. So that's it, guys. That is our update on the Lucy Let Be documentary released by Netflix. I don't know. Yeah, you can make up your own minds. That's just what I happen to think. In the pursuit of truth. Absolutely. Always be in the pursuit of truth and you will, you know, not go wrong. So that's it. Hopefully you enjoyed this little bonus extra tidbit. And we'll see you next week or like now probably for another thing that we're doing. Goodbye.
