140 | From Refugee to CEO: Quang X. Pham's Journey of Grit, Toughness, and Effort

This is becoming undone. That night inside gone, I was about to become a country-less boy going to America without knowing anybody in America without knowing the language, the culture, the temperature. Next thing I know I landed in Arkansas. And I've never been a dreamer or a visionary. I was all about the mindset, which means taking action. Don't talk about writing a book, write it. You want to be a pilot? Don't practice. Take some flying lessons. You want to play better baseball? Don't practice. You want to be a better golfer? Go to the driving range. It just doesn't happen. You have to take action. This is Kwong X-Fam and I am undone. Hey friend, I'm glad you're here. Welcome to yet another episode of becoming undone, the podcast for those who dare bravely, risk mightily, and grow relentlessly. I'm Toby Brooks, a speaker, author, professor, and performance scientist. I spent much the last two decades working as an athletic trainer and a strength coach in the professional, collegiate, and high school sports settings. And over the years, I've grown more and more fascinated with what sets high achievers apart and how failures that can suck at the moment can end up being exactly the push we needed to propel us on our paths to success. Each week on becoming undone, I invite a new guest to examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. I'd like to emphasize that this show is entirely separate from my role at Baylor University, but it's my attempt to apply what I've learned and what I'm learning and to share with others about the mindsets of high achievers. Well y'all, it's great to be back. I've taken a couple of weeks off and getting a little overrun with homework assignments and work that I had to get done on my own. It's good to be back in the chair behind the mic. What does it mean to come undone only to reassemble stronger? Today's guest, Kwank X-Falm, knows that story first-hand. From a 10-year-old refugee fleeing a collapsing sci-gon to a decorated US Marine Corps aviator and now a biotech CEO fighting to save lives, Kwank's journey is a masterclass in grit, attitude, and grit again. In this episode we talk about duty, sacrifice, and the surprising power of owning your own story, even when the odds are stacked against you. We talk about the ER principle, effort, and results, and about why excellence isn't about titles or background, but instead about showing up day after day with clarity and courage. This is not just a story about the American Dream, it's about doing the work, taking the shot, and owning the result. Next I've end episode 140 with veteran and entrepreneur Kwank X-Falm. Hey friends, greeting, and welcome back to Becoming Undone, the podcast for those who dare bravely, risk mildly, and grow relentlessly. Join me Toby Brooks, as I invite a new guest each week, where we examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. Over the years, one of the common themes in the show has been big pivots, big shifts, and in particular, athletes and military folks seem to have gone through really some similar processes in that transition out of the early part of their career. So I'm thrilled to have Kwank X-Falm joining us today, and he's an entrepreneur and an author and looking forward to hearing your story. Kwank thanks for joining me. We used to pleasure, thanks for having me on. Yeah, so I love reading through your speaker kit. There were a lot of great things in there. I think a lot of similarities between what we talk about in the show and the writing that you've done and certainly some of the work in your past. You've lived what you call the American underdog journey from a child refugee to a marine core aviator to now biotech CEO. When you look back, what would you say is the single most defining moment that helped shape how you see yourself today? You know, just over 50 years ago, April 1975, Stuygon, the former capitalist south Vietnam was fallen apart. I just finished the fifth grade, 10 years old, three sisters, father, late father was a senior South Vietnamese Air Force pilot training in the United States starting in the late 50s. So long history back with the Vietnam War and my mother was a school teacher. And on that dark, sci-gon, April, they said, if I'm wanting our lives changed. So that was the first turning point where you know, help define who I am. I became, you know, an American citizen, a Marine, an entrepreneur, but that night inside gone, I was about to become a countryless boy going to America without knowing anybody in America without knowing the language, the culture, the temperature. You know, to me, Americans were advisors. They were big. They smiled. They were there for the whole world and towards the end, they started to disappear. Next thing I know, I landed in Arkansas in the late 1975. What a culture shock. So how old were you in this all went down? 10. 10 years old. 10 years old. Yeah, 10 years old. So what I saw did find my life because for the 10 years I lived, especially the last three years in Vietnam, the latter part of the Vietnam War, when the Americans had withdrew in 72 and in the field, like the late Senator John McCain came home and they signed the piece of court. So the war kind of was quiet. And then we know the North Vietnamese was planning that big invasion in Saigon fell in 55 days. So the big part for me was I saw my father take care of his family, you know, amid his country falling apart. And his president had fled his, the man officers were gone. Our neighbors were gone. He put us on that second flight out of Saigon and he stayed. So first of all, I saw him do the duty. Second, art was the surprise that he didn't come with us and it took 17 years before I saw him again. So I think a sense of duty, a sense of pride. And I followed his footsteps. Yeah. Fascinating story. What would you say your biggest wildest dreams were when you were 10, 11 years old, first setting foot in Arkansas, literally a world apart, culturally, all of those transitions. What did success look like to 11 year old clone? Success looked like lining up for a meal each day. And every day going to the refugee camp center where we'd listen to BBC news to find out what happened. We knew the war and did the communists had won and there were hundreds and thousands of families torn apart, didn't know where their parents were in arcade. My mother didn't know where her husband was. She came to America with four young kids, 11, 10, 7 and 3. I didn't have anybody. So the second instance that I saw that shaped my leg with my mom made a decision when we were in Arkansas that they wanted us to leave the camp because so many people were leaving Vietnam by boat still. So we had to have an American sponsor or we could have gone to Australia, Canada and France because Vietnam had been a colony of France. So I already had four years of French as a second language. So we had aunts, uncles, relatives, probably about 25, 30 family members and at the last minute she said no. We don't know anything about America but the French will never see new kids as equal. So we're going to America. We're staying. Since you have a lot of sports and athletes and I never was a professional. I didn't play college sports. I did play high school basketball. I did play Little League baseball. 1976 I joined Little League baseball, started practicing my English made a lot of friends. Didn't get one hit. 1977 I became a starter, hit the game winning hit. We win the league, became a Little League All-Star. So transformation and sports was such a big part of my early years in America made a lot of friends. I think I learned that the playing field was equal and the kids who got picked on pick up basketball game, pick up football games and neighborhood and eventually the teams. They got picked, you know, it didn't matter what color you were. Can you play? Can you produce results? Kwang is just 10 years old when the conflict in Vietnam upends his entire world. His family is torn apart as his mom bravely immigrates to America along with his three sisters while his father stays behind. He finds himself an Arkansas, not knowing the language, the culture or the climate. However, what he did know was what he saw on his father living out the virtues of duty and pride. And although it would be 17 years until he'd see his dad again, the impact made an indelible mark ultimately leading to a career in the US Marine Corps. However, it would be years of adjustment before any of that would even be possible, starting first in a refugee camp. Then consider the prejudice and racism commonly encountered and endured by Vietnamese immigrants, even at the tender age of 11. However, Kwang found solace and connection in the level playing fields of, well, playing fields of Little League Baseball and the basketball courts where he'd compete in high school. You find yourself in the American military as a Marine and eventually as an aviator. Talk me through that process from how you go from a refugee to deciding to be a part of the American military. Growing up inside God, I lived in military base the last three years of my life. So I was a military brat. My father was a senior pilot. I saw planes take off land, arm, ritual, aircraft shot down, parachute, the whole thing. When I got to America, I never imagined that America would trust, you know, a five foot eight kid out of high school, go to UCLA, barely 140 pounds, tripping wet that America would trust me to allow me to go to the South of Kentucky school, allow me to go to flight school, earn my wings. And then fly troops in the Persian Gulf War and then often amphibious ship and become an aircraft commander and take charge and serve 10 years between seven years of active duty and another actually five years in reserve. So it was tremendous. And that's how the journey was. It was a journey to pursue my child's dream, but I looked back. It was one, it was to pay back for my citizenship and honor my family. The flying was bonus. I never became an airline pilot, but the flying was what I wanted to do as a kid. And just looking back at just an incredible country. You know, this is the number one country for underdogs, you know, if you don't have the name, if you don't have the culture, if you don't have education, if you don't have money, you could become whoever you want to become. If you focus on effort and results and define your own success, you know, and be realistic about your dreams. And I've never been a dreamer or a visionary. I was all about the mindset, which means taking action. Okay. Just don't talk about writing a book, write it. You want to be a pilot? Don't practice. Take some flying lessons. You want to play better baseball? Go practice. You want to be a better golfer? Go to the driving range. It just doesn't happen. You had to take action. Yeah. I love just that mindset and the ownership. I love the idea that sports is outcome based. It's not related to. In some ways, it can be, but eventually the talent rises to the top. And I've seen even in Little League instances where who your dad is or who the politics are. Yeah. That can influence it. But ultimately, if you're a talent, you will find a way to be on the quarter on the field. So always that became an adult. I follow each year. He was a little bigger than me. It was just amazing career. He just got into the Hall of Fame. But the biggest I grew up in LA Dodgers fan, you know, listening to Vince Goli. The game right now is at the plate. High, fly ball in the right field. She has gone. In a year that has been so improbable, the impossible has happened. That's on the world series last year. And to see the Dodgers, they look at all the different ethnic players. It's just a sports. It's just beyond what it did for me as a kid. But does it see how global it was? Is it bringing people again, just watching 60,000 people at Dodgers stadium screaming? I was born in LA. My mom was a huge Dodgers fan. So my earliest memories of baseball were Vince Goli, Steve Garvey, Ron Sey, Fernando. Yes. And so certainly connect in that regard. I also hear some Kobe Bryant in you. The idea that you develop excellence through action and that mamba mentality certainly is, I equate that with LA. He was the, you know, when Kobe passed away, it was sadness in me because I flew, how I copped this for the Marines in Orange County. And I have flown over those LA areas, up to five, up to one, oh, one. We were flying it just before the LA riots in 1992. So I knew exactly where he had traveled from Orange County through downtown LA. I've landed up, I've hovered over to LA PD because they couldn't take a Marine helicopter. We practiced our landings, but we could never put our whole helicopter down 25,000 pounds. And the day I heard of this passing, you know, for me as a fan of the Lakers of Kobe, but also as a helicopter who flew over to Southern California for a decade. It was a sad day and it was a sad day. Learning it was a single pilot there, crass line and through it. I understood it. I never opined about it, but it was challenging for it was a challenging time for me to still to hear what had happened and then just to find out the findings, you know, over the ensuing months and years. Yeah. For sure. As I read your bio, I am moved by the magnitude of the transitions in your life from refugee to Arkansas. From Arkansas, you end up at UCLA. From UCLA, you end up in the Marine Corps. From the Marine Corps, you end up in biotech. Those are not small steps. What would you attribute your bravery in making those huge transitions and jumps? And I mean, even from the humble beginnings where you said success consisted of standing in line and being fed to now being in charge of incredibly important work. That's not something you typically see in that order of magnitude. I did meet the late coach John Wooden in 1985. My second year at UCLA, he came to do his book tour called They Call Me Coach 10 years after he retired and won the last of his ten national championship. I did have dreams of playing Pointing Art for UCLA. I didn't do everything in my life. But it was the everybody gets scared. But you can let fear hold you back. Whether that fear is safety, whether that fear is the fear is failure. But most people even are scared of trying. Fear. Cron hits the nail on the head here with what he sees as the killer of dreams. Not circumstance, not lack of resources, not competitors. Fear kills more dreams than failure. Fear safety, even just the fear of failure. Or the fear of trying. And the opposite of fear isn't just courage, it's action. Consider this scene from we bought a zoo and the idea of just 20 seconds of courage. What happened with you and Lily? I don't know. I guess I didn't listen to something she told me or something. I mean, I liked her. It's like you embarrass yourself if you say something. You embarrass yourself if you don't. You know, sometimes all you need is 20 seconds of insane courage, just literally 20 seconds of just embarrassing bravery. And I promise you something great will come of it. Sometimes all it takes is 20 seconds. Other times it could be months or even years. Regardless, Quang understood the value of not just having dreams, but being brave enough to pursue them. And that was perhaps no more obvious than an enhanced pursuit of his dreams in the US Marine Corps. When I got to Officer Canada School in the Marine Corps in the summer of 1986, you got to remember this is 11 years after the Vietnam War. There were a lot of pain, a lot of redness, a lot of bitterness. And there were a few Vietnam vets who were still in the Marine Corps. And I'm not sure that all of them were pleased that I was there trying to become an officer in an Aviator. It was also the summer that the movie Platoon came out. And top-getting on the other side, very positive patriotic platoon. And there were certain portrayal of the Vietnamese in the movies. And you got to remember, UCLA Francis Ford Concolette went there. A lot of movie Hollywood folks. And there was this certain portrayal of the Vietnam War, specifically the Salad Vietnamese military. So I went to Officer Canada School with a chip of my shoulder. My father was still being captive. And they're teaching us that we didn't lose the Vietnam War. The Salad Vietnamese were coward. They were in app. And so I had to chip that I was not going to beat the kid whose parents were from Salad Vietnam to fail. What then I believe was the hardest test in the Marine Corps. And so once I completed that, I was still scared of trying to think that I never had a failure again. I think the second part was I noticed that everybody who was successful in America, starting with Hollywood, in the Marine Corps and in business, as I got out, were very good communicators. They had master not only beating English, but they would do that articulate. And so I get asked, what would you tell a new immigrant? I would never say, go learn how to be a BC or save money. I say, well, learn English, learn how to speak, how to present, how to convince people. It's the greatest tool to be communicated. And I stride really hard starting with time in the Marines. And so every time I made a leap from Marines to biotic salesmen, from salesmen to entrepreneur, and from entrepreneur to taking a company, informing everything to take it public on the Wall Street was, yes, you get scared. Yes, the fear of the unknown, but you still go through it. Yeah, because it's part of the DNA. Some people are born with it. I believe I train myself in emulating, and I think in my book, I write about people who admire, but I've never met. And so I watch what they do. I listen to their tapes, Colin Powell, the lay general, the late Fred Smith, the founder and CEO of FedEx, who just passed away, other biotech CEO that didn't have the traditional track. You know, 25 years in corporate America, or 50 years, or 30 years in the military, they had, you know, alternative career tracks. And that's what I started emulating. Right. They call them the admirable. So people who admire, who I've never met. I love that. That's a clever take. But certainly one that resonates, I look for exemplars. Right now with AI being what it is on the campus where I work, it's almost impossible to keep up. It seems like there's a new tool or a new platform, something every day. And so it's almost impossible. And some might even say it is impossible for one person to keep pace. Whereas if you can find those exemplars who are embracing and using things well, that's really a way to fast track your learning so that you're not spending time on dead ends and things like that. So I love that. The idea of having admirable in your life. In your experience, what would you say is the biggest myth about success that keeps underdogs from breaking through? The biggest myth is role model. The long up is that you have to have a mentor. You have to have a role model. Somebody who looks like you that's made it well. I had zero. We were the first Vietnamese people. But we were Vietnamese people in America, mostly students and spouses of American servicemen that had arrived before they were ended. But that first wave in 1975, we didn't have CEOs. We didn't have entertainers to look up to. We didn't have religious leaders. So I think that's one of the biggest myths of fallacies. You have to have a mentor or a role model because I had none. And they had to look like you. They had to be your same race. They could empathize with you. No. My admirable were African Americans, a lot of Jewish, successful Jewish people. And they did something in California. I had Jewish friends and business. They weren't from my religion. They weren't my people. They weren't Vietnamese. So I think that's probably the biggest one. I'm trying to find people who are kind, successful, good communicator and gave some time back to either helping people or their community. Those are the kind of people that became my admirables. Yeah. I love that. That really opens up a lot of doors of opportunity where you can pick and choose and identify with, again, the outcome going back to kind of the athlete example. If someone can be successful in business with integrity, it doesn't matter necessarily what their background is. They still have some character traits that I can learn from. I love that approach. I think, you know, when I looked at Romano, I mean, I was a gym rat and I still get into the Y and play full-quake basketball at my age. I could say I was very proud. I was very happy. I was at Madison Square Garden during that run. I'm cheering me, Lynn Sanity. So I got to see him play. And then for those five or six games in early 2012, it was amazing. You know, it is one sport professionally that you don't see a lot of Asians, Asian Americans are, you know, I'm certainly in China and I was out of America, but not in the NBA. So when I saw him play, I only had that Vietnamese. I was just amazed. And for those six games in that season, he put up numbers like, what would he like? Right. Yeah. Well, you kind of alluded to this in passing in one of our previous questions. You have what you call the ER approach, effort and results. And it's kind of at the heart of your work. Can you share how you developed this philosophy and how maybe you've tested it and piloted it in your work today? Yeah. So, you know, in my professional career in the Marines work at Genentech and other pharmaceutical company, I will often find myself if I didn't get the promotion or my peers. First, you get it. I deserve this. See or she got it because they do somebody. It was never a look at yourself, myself included. And so I started looking back and saying, what was it that I wanted? I really want that promotion or was I India's or jealous because somebody got promoted into a job that I didn't even really want. It was just demon success. You're with an organization and in the military, you get promoted every couple years in the private sector. It doesn't follow every couple years and you get promoted to Lieutenant or Captain or Major or corporal that sergeant. So, I was doing that track and I said, wait a minute. Take a look at yourself. And I was in pharmaceutical and there's the medical, the ER, the emergency room. And I started looking at, well, what were my results? What were my sales numbers? What kind of effort did I put into my job? Did I do X amount of sales? Call, did I produce? Why am I feeling that I missed this promotion or somebody got it because of favorite to them or something? And so, I put myself in that mode first. Then I started seeing some periods that were doing the same thing. It's kind of the self-pity low thing and complaining. And slowly over 20 years, I saw the same with the entrepreneur world. Well, I didn't get my business plan funded. I'll come this person get X million when we had the better drug or the better device or the widget. Did I went back and saw their presentation? I saw the way they presented it and I saw the effort. It didn't match up. And so I started thinking about, well, people panic instead of looking at themselves, they blame either the economy, their company, their manager or circumstances. So I started thinking, well, before you do that, just go to the ER, right? Because if you call your doctor's office and nobody picks up the phone, you get that message, right? If this is the emergency, dial down one, one, or get yourself in the emergency room. So I started putting them to the little acronym together and I said, well, yeah, just go back and look at your effort and your result, to see the benefits of success, but beginning by defining what success meant to you. I'll hop in here because I think this concept is one that I've certainly learned over the past couple of years and frankly, still learning today. In so many aspects of life, it's tempting to couch our failures to get ahead or to see other success as coming at our expense. It's tempting and frankly easy to write off my shortcomings as being outside my control or due to someone else's unfair advantage. However I define that. And no lie, there certainly may be some of that. But what I discovered was that that anger or resentment or jealousy just has not served me. Worst, it made me the kind of person people didn't want to be around. A complainer looking to gripe about how unfair life is. Instead, I love the alternative quonks suggests here, taking ownership of our effort and the things we can control makes us teachable. Not to mention the kind of person people might actually want to be around. At the same time, we also have to own the effort that we put in. I tell my students this all the time and I hope I live by it as well. Don't give a two effort and expect a ten result. Matter of fact, there may be times when we give a ten effort and get a two result. And frankly, that's okay. Right now, today I'm fighting for my academic life in the advanced neuromuscular exercise physiology class that I'm taking right now. In my midterm, showed it. And if I'm honest, I was giving about a six effort and I got a seven result, so why would I be mad about that? An old piece of wisdom comes to mind. Don't be angry about the results you didn't get from the work you didn't do. I could have worked harder and I probably would have done better. And I have to live with that. For quon, it has consistently been about doing the work, trusting the process and operating in faith that those results were coming sooner or later. And I'll finish on this question. Answer your question. For me, early years of success was the Vietnamese community as, you know, after five or ten years in America, they saw young kids like me, success through the Vietnamese community and affected, you know, somewhat, you were supposed to go to college and go on to medical school or pharmacy or become an engineer. So when I entered the Marine Corps, it not only surprised my non-Vietnamese friend, it surprised a lot of people that knew my family. Even though we left that life behind after the war, like, what are you doing? You know, this is that. And so I fought off what culturally, you know, and a lot of my friends end up getting very good jobs early in their lives, making a lot more money as I made it as a Marine. But success to me was not how they saw, you know, the young kids at our community in the early years. Yeah. I love that approach. There's definitely alignment with what I've taught and what I'm learning. I talk a lot about strategic and purpose for like listening to pursuit better every day. And I was actually just using this this week. So it's funny. You mentioned a promotion. There's something coming up for me that I'm interested in. And I think the time line's about ten months. And with AI, we can now have a trusted advisor, completely confidential. So I went in and generated a Gantt chart, a growth plan like I want to be the best possible candidate I can be ten months from now for X-Roll. What can I do? I uploaded my CV. It looked for holes, things that I could do to address potential deficiencies. And like I said, yeah, maybe someone else gets it, but I can't control that. I can control the controls. I can max out myself. I'll be better in the process whether I get it or not. It aligns I think really well with your idea of your efforts and your results. And at the end of the day, once you know you've put those hours in the gym, the results will be what they may. And there's no shame in that whether you win or lose. And I use the simple principle, not just in our company and my professional life, but also when I have fun, and one of my passion is golf. And it's I think most people would tell you that it looks really easy on TV. The PCA professionals make it look at so it the LPGA, but it is very difficult to master or even the average. And so I think for years, I would try to enter amateur competitions and that do very well. I would just go to the driving range, watch some videos. Until about five years ago, I started putting myself in those pressure situation. And this is just, you know, weekend amateur golfers have been fun with friends playing in your local burn events or your club tournaments. And it was when I put myself in those situations more up and that the body didn't feel like you go up and play, it's just feels a lot different than playing with your friends. So the more I did that, the better I became under pressure. And it was not in front of thousands of people just in front of, you know, half of them are friends, but you have to put yourself and your effort into that. That's what you want as the result. Sure. And it seems like there's a lot of themes that keep cropping up, but that's another Kobe Bryant is where he says, don't practice it until you get it right. Practice it until you can't get it wrong. And the fact that fear evaporates when I know I've put in the preparation. And if I know I've done it a hundred or a thousand times in practice, when it comes up in real life, what do I have to be afraid of? I already know I can do it. And so I share that with my students all the time. You know, don't just practice it until you can get that exam question right or you know how to do that special test. I think we grossly underestimate the repetition that it takes in order to really be successful. So part of that, I learned in the Marine Corps was, you know, in pharmaceutical biotech, we did role play, right? You, your sales representative, you're a person to a situation. There's an actor or a physician that's helping you talk to your products. Well, you back up, you know, another decade, I was in the range. We had a lot of training mission, you know, real life mission is called situation, no training versus just going out to fly a couple of hours there. Going out to drive the crazy, hit ball for 30 minutes. We were put in situation with time, with resources and see if we can need to test. Can you get to the right landing zone on the right time with these resources and with this mission brief, 55 minutes before you're supposed to be in the zone. So it was compressed. It was situational. I find those reality training situational scenarios. And I think it's very common now. It wasn't so common 25, 30 years ago, but I think with the technology video, AI, you could put your employees, your athletes, even the young ones, do a lot of, you know, I'm sure you get all the statistics and all the explanations on the other side. Yeah. Reminds me of that saying the more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle. It's very true. That notion of being prepared. You've spoken a lot about loving what you do until you can do what you love. And that's maybe an inversion of the way a lot of young people are taught, where they're taught to just pursue their passions. And that can lead to some dead ends and some unsuccessful pursuits. How would you say that's played out in your own life and how would you say others could apply that without losing their drive? Early in my Marine career, obviously, I joined the Marines and became an Aviator. I wanted to be an F-18 or a hairier subject pilot. What I learned was that the D's of the Marine Corps comes before the needs of the individual and the Marine helicopter pilot operating on for ship requires two new aviators. And so the whole class got helicopters. So, you know, I checked into Southern California. That is in DOOS. So, yeah, I learned very quickly that people watch you. Your attitude, your training, your performance in that I was looking forward to getting through my tour and perhaps reapplying. And I almost got burnt. I ran into the wrong person. And for the first time, you know, my career was at stake. Jump forward when I got to Corp in America, everybody was talking about that next promotion. And I can see some people when they didn't get it. They forgot to. They didn't excel at their current job. They were just average. And so, you were leaving the service. And I knew that I could just take it easy and just go interview and just kind of transition out. Well, I took a very hard job my last year. I was the commanding general's aide, the executive assistant. So, I interface a lot of people. I went to wargans, flew back in the back of an F-18 with the Southern California, flew everywhere with them and flew them in the Marine helicopter. What I learned was that because I did that job very well. It helped me transition to the private sector. I had interface with many officials, the big official business leaders in Southern California. Going forward five years later when I was student tech for the year that I thought about becoming entrepreneur during the .com era, everybody wanted to be a .com entrepreneur. I had just my drug rep .com, my business. But I was at student tech and I said, you can't just have one foot in one foot out. They're paying you. Okay. So, I ended up being the number one biotech rep for most of 1999. I got up promotion, then resigned and started my new company. So, what it did for me, it made me feel good that I gave my employer my full attention did well. What I made the lead and went to venture capital. It gave me a great credibility that I didn't. I never have been a CEO before. I had five years in the private industry. I had a business plan. My drug rep .com was going to revolutionize pharmacy new sales. But when I told him I was the number one biotic sales rep for the number one biotech in the world and I saw inefficiency in the model that the internet could solve. It gave me instant credibility. So, that period in my life, I learned that, whatever you dream of doing, do what you do really well. So, when you make that lead, you lead behind a good legacy, you lead behind a good foundation. People feel good. They didn't feel like you had one foot in one foot out. And I think on the other side, I was advising a group of entrepreneurs and a young lady had a career, a ten-year career. She wanted to do something and she was doing it on the weekend. She would leave work early and I asked her a few things about a safety, a financial safety net. If you don't get funded, you're going to have to go into your savings. And after all of that, I gave it the advice that you should stay in corporate America. She got upset. Three years later, I ran into her again. She thanked me because some people are not ready and it's not just mentally, financially, family. It would be a time and you will know when the time is right. But the key message with that chapter in the book was, love what you do and so you do what you do because it turns out well for all parties. Yeah. Well said. And I think that's a fresh message and an interesting take relative to what a lot of kids are being taught today where it's just find your passion and go after that all out. I think there's an integrity piece to doing the best job you can at whatever season you're in. But sometimes in these big transitions, I've encountered this before. Sometimes it's a push and sometimes it's a pull. I think we share in common that we were pushed out of competitive basketball. I would have loved to have played a little longer, but that door was an open for me. And then other times I've ran full steam ahead toward bigger, better opportunities. That's a pull for someone listening right now who feels stuck in that in between. They're burned out. Maybe they're overshadowed. But one practical step they can take today that can help them reclaim their own vision of success. I think you have to just be, do you have your health and do you have your family? I mean, to me, I work at healthcare. I have friends who have been sick and gotten sick and have passed away as you reach a certain age and live in a certain demographic. And the number one thing is just look where you are in life. I think if you have health and you have family and relationship, you are ahead. I think sometimes it just takes a reality check. I know financial situation is a burn out. A lot of people are having a challenging time right now. Once again, now that happiness to me are at the very top of the list. I think the next step you can take is you have to be active in learning. It's just so many tools right now. The internet has been around 30 years. The PC, Wi-Fi, you have to be current. I think when you get stagnant in your job and your career and your company, if you're current, you can see it coming and you can see even just sideways. Go into another company in the same role because where you are maybe downsized or you don't want to move. I think geography is a big deal. A lot of people move around for a job and you can find the ideal job that you live near family and friends. It's a big, big plus. I've seen people leave and they end up coming back to their hometown or wherever they had the most connections. Myself included. I think it's fairly saying that there's a chapter in my book where I face some great changes and challenges. I think the Cuban Year was a challenge year for me. I bet the success of the company and the Cuban Year was when I went through the doors after a long, mostly happy marriage. I had a shutdown in my drug company. We couldn't get funded. It was a tough time. It was very challenging. I went and stuck with my method. Just do it right. We ended up setting the wind out appropriately and investors were, I think they weren't happy but they were on the respect there. You have to remember that as an entrepreneur, people invest in your ideas and your companies and when things don't work out, they lose. You lose, they lose. But is your responsibility to set it up, take it on success, get all the glory and when it doesn't work, you have to do the right thing and just can't walk away and just leave things hanging and somebody has to come in and clean your mess, you know, attorneys that come in and do it the right way. I think there's so much wisdom in that and it can be so difficult to know how to forge ahead when we find ourselves in the midst of, I call them purpose storms and there's a bit of a healthcare analogy there in the throes of looking for why I'm here, not really knowing whether I should take that opportunity or stay where I'm at. I came across the notion of a thyroid storm where our endocrine system goes haywire for though apparent reason. Sometimes these purpose storms can be triggered by events. You know, you suffer an injury and your athletic career is over or you end up getting downsized. I mean, sometimes that happens, but other times it can just be like an existential crisis and we can't really predict when or even why that's occurring. Any advice you could give for someone who's maybe facing that crisis of purpose? I think, they call it mid-life crisis, late-life crisis, early-life crisis. Now, there's no more mid-life crisis, right? The mid-career professional who just kind of burnt out. First of all, I think careers and jobs are fancy at these days. The old days of spending 35, 40 years and getting at pensions are mostly over. And so, the 401K, everything's portable and what you've earned and vested its foul goals with you. So, in a way, it's transportable. So are your skills and so are your jobs. So I think somebody who is stuck has to realize there's a few things that play health, happiness, finance, geography, and part of happiness is relationship. I think part of one of the chapters I wrote about is when you have something that's open and affects your life, whether it's a former spouse you're dealing with, divorce, separation, a parent that you don't speak with, a sibling that you don't have a relationship with. I suggest in the book close that loop because you think I don't care anymore, but it affects other parts of your life and your relationships. I always encourage people as long as you're still on this earth, close that loop. Kind of feels like Kwong is meddling in my business here a little bit, whether he realized it or not. Full disclosure here, I have had a rough couple of years. Kwong mentioned that he had an especially hard year in 2020 and I think many of us can relate. I took over as program director at my previous institution in April of 2020, literally one week before the lockdown began. Like many professors I ended up teaching online for the rest of that spring semester, and I personally spent most of my days alone in a home office out in my pull bar in my backyard. During that time, it's safe to say I grew deeply depressed. All the while I tried to keep up appearances of being stable and strong and together, but inside I was anything but. Just one or two trusted friends know just how dark that season was for me, but like so many others, I made it through. Over the next few years I grew more and more dissatisfied with my role at work, and some important relationships with my extended family hit some incredibly rough spots too. I take my share or more of the blame, but regardless of whose fault it is, the end result was communication was cut off, persistent heart feelings, and an ever-deepening divide. That sadly has also impacted my immediate family who had nothing to do with the disagreement that started at all. When Kwong says that such relationships are a drain, he's right. I know that. If you're in the middle of the same, you know it too. When chances are, you also know that it isn't so easy to just quote him quote, fix it. I'd love to tell you that it gets easier, but I also know that for me, it simply hasn't. However, as Kwong points out, all hope need not be lost. There's always a choice to be made, and while it might not be easy, it might also be exactly what we need. I think if people are stuck, don't bang your head against that steam method. If you're thinking you're going to be XYZ in a certain career and company, it's not happening then. Think you're still somewhere else. Just don't get frustrated, and it's something you don't want to do anymore, then just make sure you excel at it while you are doing the other research. Just always do best where you are, because things will be good when you go interview and you find out they didn't, the company didn't let you go because you were searching for another job. Wow. Why were you supposed to do in your job? It's not easy. I think you have to try a few different things, but I think just doing the same thing over. I don't want to overstate the definition of insanity, but there's people know that doing the same thing over, expecting a different result. Yeah. Again, talking Kwong X Phong, the Chairman CEO of Katrina, Therapeutics, also a US Marine Corps veteran and a UCLA Bruin. You mentioned the book. It's not your first book. Talk to us a little bit about underdog nation. 2005, a sense of duty came out and that's about family, Marine Corps trying to find out, make sense of the Vietnam War every evening with my father. I always did want to be one-time author. I always wanted to do a second book, and it was not going to be a personal book, but as I started writing under dog nation and the themes of coming to America and the last passion in the free world, it remains true 50s years later. People still are in a field coming there. You're praying that to stand here hot. There are refugees that are like in my shoes 50 years ago, and the message is still the same. This is life happiness. It's right here, but you have to earn it. America asked very little of you. So that's what I went back to lit it underdog, and I think I started the book talking about leaving Vietnam, but then I lit it. American history. America was an underdog. Yeah. Just 250 years ago. Two to five. When you're nine years ago, I joined an organization which was the underdog military, the smallest into four armed forces. There's a theme, and there's the America's love underdog. Whether it's a sports event, but when the underdog does it, make it, it's forgotten. So I was, it's okay to be an underdog, no room for you, but you got to break through. You got to get the hit. You got to make it through off your campus school. Your company has to make it. You got to get a drug approved. So the journey continues, and I think in my speaker introduction, a young man helped me put it together. The real journey is that where you come from, but where you're headed because it's behind you. So some people ask me all the time about my past, and every time I get there, I'm like, my future, it is a lip like my career track, right? Like you said, I jumped around and I've had a very blessed life. We'll be back after this quick message. Hey, friend, let me take a quick second to tell you about something that's been making a real difference for me lately, Bubs Naturals. I've been dealing with this stubborn knee injury that I just couldn't get better, and as somebody that spent most of my life pushing my body, I know recovery doesn't happen by accident. So I started doing some research, and I checked out Bubs College and I got to say, I can feel the difference. It's clean, it's simple, and it works. Bubs products are all about helping your body heal, move, and function at its best, which is a pretty good thing for a guy in my age, from college and peptides to MCT oil, and now even hydration products. It's legit fuel for high performers, especially when your body's been through some things. And the best part, because you're part of the becoming undone crew, you can get 20% off your first order. Just head over to pubsnaturals.com-undone, that's you in DONE to grab your discount. That's pubsnaturals.com-undone. Make your body fuel your recovery, and let's keep getting better. I'm very grateful for this country and the people I've met and the opportunities I've had. I'm just trying to share back. The people pick up one or two nuggets, whether it's like what you do and so you do what you do, the ER analogy. I'd be very happy if people pick up one or two things that I put in the book. Yeah. Well, you teed me up perfectly for my next question. Tell us a little bit about your day-to-day. You're with Contrino. CEO, what does your work look like in 2025? So I think the biotech, or what we call it, the drug development. Most of the thousands of biotech companies, we're not talking about big farmers like Mercafizer, the biotech drug development company are sweet revenue. We are developing molecules, whether the biologics are small molecule. The greatest thing is that our industry produces most of the innovation for the world. The drugs that come out of America, the world benefits from it. So I always share with our team. I call it not my company, our company. I'm the founder of CEO and chairman, it's our company, it's our team, it's our drug. We're doing it. The drug will be here forever. Unlike a regional, local, or national company, this drug is going to put warrants, the oldest bloodthin in the world that's been around for 70 years at a business. But we're not there yet. We need to do one more trial. Our day as executives of a biotech company that's pre-revenue is we have to advance our drug in the trial. We've got to get the financial, it's the billionth company, get the financing, the investment to do the trial, communicate with the FDA, talk to our intellectual property attorneys to make sure the pads and everything is valid for the drug. We want to protect it. Then we actually have to go and get investigators and then find patients, encourage them. The inner trial, which lasts over two years, gather all the data and take into the FDA and say, this is the proof. These are the metrics the FDA wanted us to beat, whether it's placebo or warfriend. That's how that's our day. It's around the five pillars, finance, regulatory, intellectual property, clinical trials. That's the last, but the number one is the patients. The patient doesn't care if you don't have the money or the financial market is bad. The need is still there. What we're trying to do is get our drug to Carfin. It's a blood thinner. It's to help people who are about to go and dial us, it's to prevent them from getting a blood clot and they can die from a heart attack or so. That's it. Very simple. Yeah. That's great. This one is unrelated, but I asked this one of all my guests. I love music and the emotions that it can frequently represent. If we were to watch a montage of your life, what song would you pick as this soundtrack to play in the background and why? Wow. I'm a dick. I'm a big fan of the clash. Every time I hear London calling, I remember Saigon calling. And so definitely the clash would be played in the background. Gotcha. That's a great answer. I've not had a guest answer that. Rock the Casbah, big part of my high school, college years. Yep. It was just a great band. I think I'm a big fan of the clash, big fan of Green Day. And I'm so excited. My daughter is second year in college and we're going to see Oasis reunion at the Rose Bowl. Nice. And so it was her idea. And I think the whole generation of younger Americans growing up, they're coming back to that music, which was my music in my 20s. And so I'm so excited to go see two ways to be in union in Cossack. Right. Now that's tremendous. And the fact that she invited you makes that all the sweeter. Oh, yeah. A son who's a sophomore myself and he has not yet suggested a concert for us. So if you listen, that would really make my day. All right. Well, last one here. What four Kong remains undone? You know, I would say professionally to get this drug approved, especially as if it's top of our, my list. That's the one, you know, travel, bucket list stuff. I don't have anymore. I saw things and done things. I don't have this wish list of I need to go see something or think of somewhere on the pride of the fun side. The win a club championship. There you go. That's too, you know, used to be the run a few marathons. I ran and I'm running 16 of them in my, like in my 40s about, you know, nothing material, no house boat or cleaner or anything like that. I traveled. I go when it goes back again, I was happy that's at the top of the list. Yeah. Well, if any friends or fellow club members are listening, look out. You are coming for it. The old center said we're coming. We're coming. I'm coming. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, how can listeners connect? I'll point them toward the book. If there are any URLs or addresses that I can get. It's easy. Quang X. Pham is my name and I'm on LinkedIn. A lot of professional said questions and I try to answer a few things. Outside LinkedIn is a website with my name. U-A-M-G-X-P-A-J-M. You'll see both books on there. You see my speaking topics. You see my intro video. You started with the helicopters and evacuates the Saigon all the way to ring in the bell, opening up the closing bell at NASDAQ. We went public in early 2023. It's been an incredible journey. No other country to have afforded. Many people, this country has afforded many people. This is just one journey. The opportunities that have happened. Well, it's been an honor. Real pleasure to speak with you again, Quang X. Pham. Cereal entrepreneur, Marine Corps veteran, refugee from Vietnam and now successful in so many. I forgot to say one thing. The saw that hit me the hardest was, you know, it's the Soviet. I'm a California, I'm not sure, the Soviet out Tom Petty. We don't have to live like the refugee in 1978. And we don't. It's funny. You say that because I guess I was like, is this a Mandela effect or did I really just not the reboot of King of the Hill? Tom Petty was a voice of lucky in that and they said, you know, several of the cast members, the voice actors had passed away and they said, Tom Petty, I'm like, I did not recall that we lost him. Yeah. All right. That was I would say one of my first few American songs that I learned that really hit me. Yeah. I can imagine. They're running a song. This is Quang X Pham and I am undone. As we close today's episode, I'm struck by Quang's reminder, it's not where you start. It's how you show up, what you pour in and what you choose to become. From refugee to marine, from corporate outsider to public company CEO, his life is proof that underdogs can rise. Now, by chasing shortcuts, they're waiting for permission, but by putting in the work and owning the outcome. So wherever you are in your own becoming, stuck, searching or sprinting ahead, remember effort and results, define success for yourself, then pursue it relentlessly. And thank you for dropping in and I hope you enjoyed our conversation. For more info on today's episode, be sure to check it out on the web. Simply go to undempotcast.com, backslash ep140 to see the notes, links and images related to today's guest, Quang X Pham. I know there are great stories out there to be told and I'm always on the lookout. So if you or someone you know has a story that we can all be inspired by, tell me about it. And if you're interested in the story, click on the link below. And if you want to see more of this story, click on the link below. And if you want to see more of this story, click on the link below. And if you want to see more of this story, click on the link below. And if you want to see more of this story, click on the link below. And if you want to see more of this story, click on the link below. And if you want to see more of this story, click on the link below. And if you want to see more of this story, click on the link below. 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