ITV’s picture-in-picture ads, day drinking with Claudia Winkleman and the Wild West era of 90s reality TV (with Gill Wilson)

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0:00

Hello and welcome to Insiders, a podcast all about the world of television with.

0:54

Me, Peter Fincham and me, Jimmy Melville.

0:57

This is the podcast of people who love TV and who want to know a bit more about what goes on behind the scenes. Jim, did you see It's a story. I think it was in the Times that the government is open to the idea of a BBC Channel 4 merger.

0:59

Interesting idea.

1:15

Interesting, isn't it? It's not completely new idea but. But it's not one you'd expect the government to have a view on. Although you could also say the. The Channel 4 is owned by the treasury, which is part of the government and obviously BBC is funded by the license fee. Publicly owned, Publicly owned, publicly funded.

1:16

They're both non for profit.

1:35

So the b. The government could just do this, couldn't they? Or have they got the power?

1:36

Yeah. And also if you think the Channel four could sit quite happily in those. In that little nest of channels that are branded UK tv, which BBC Studios owns.

1:41

That's true.

1:49

So you could actually put them in there as a young skewing network.

1:50

Yeah. Kind of thinking something distinctive disappears at that point, doesn't it? Well, I mean, Channel 4 as we understand it.

1:54

Yes. How do we understand it?

2:00

I mean there was the. Years ago there was the notion of a 4, 5 merger, which I think was when Mark Thompson was the chief executive of Channel 4. I think he was quite keen on it. But I thought that was a bad idea because Channel four's distinctiveness would have disappeared in common ownership with five commercially owned channel owned by ultimately Battlesman, I think.

2:03

Or maybe you merge Channel 4 and BBC3 in terms of the back. You know, they're kind of back office. If you like. Because they're serving a similar audience.

2:27

Well, I mean one, one aspect of them of course is the ad sales side of it where, where you, you know, ads. You don't need a different ad sales team for every broadcaster. Every broadcaster. People can sell bundles of broadcasting advertising together.

2:35

I think that happens in other countries as well.

2:50

It happens in the uk but, but, but I mean as long as you don't go as far as getting an advertising monopoly, which, you know, gives you another problem. Although the idea of an advertising monopoly within television is in a sense an out of date idea because television itself is in competition with the Internet for the same advertising.

2:52

Yeah. And they're losing competition. So.

3:10

Yeah.

3:12

And often they release these things, don't they? To kind of test the water.

3:13

To test the water.

3:16

And sources at the DCMS have said, according to the Times that ministers would stop regulators from trying to block any future deal between the BBC and Channel 4.

3:17

So that's one story that's out there. A couple. We're gonna. We got a very entertaining guest coming up.

3:31

Yes.

3:35

On the show. But a couple of other stories that are coming up there. This is a story that explain this.

3:35

Because I don't understand rugby.

3:41

Well, I, I like rugby and I was brought up on rugby.

3:43

Of course you are.

3:46

We don't need to go to the reasons for this. So when, when I was at itv it was a great, it was great pleasure to me that we had the Rugby World cup rights.

3:47

Yes.

3:56

And go. So I could get all the rugby.

3:56

Did you go?

3:58

I, I did go. I once style. I once took a group of people to an England vs Wales rugby game at Twickenham and one of among the people that I invited seem a bit obvious was Tom Jones.

3:59

Is he Welsh?

4:16

I think he might be. And Tom Jones turned up and he was probably in his early 70s.

4:17

All right.

4:23

And he was, he turned up with this and. But he had presence. I mean he has presence. I'm sure he's a big star. He's a big start on. You did not doubt that. You know, a big major star walked into the room and he had within this little old man who didn't have quite the same charisma at all, sort of shuffled into the room behind him.

4:24

Right.

4:44

It was his son. It was his son. So his son looked like an old man. Yeah. But he hadn't quite got whatever Tom had.

4:45

Well, yeah, obviously Tom had his sons themselves. You've either got it, he's draining his son at night to revive his.

4:52

Early in the second half. If you're really interested. I don't think you are.

5:01

Yeah, I'm feigning interest though, aren't I?

5:04

Look, look, I'm looking at you. Not very well. Early in the second half. Yeah, England went ahead. Yeah, it was like sort of, you know, 2215, which would be a typical rugby school. Yeah, I know you think that's very odd being a football fan. So let's say 2015. So Tom left. He left because he said, I'm gonna go now, boyo.

5:05

Okay, here we go, here we go. Peter's gonna do his accent. Guess which country he's in now, folks.

5:24

I'm gonna just do it in plain English accent. Reykjavik, he said. Thank you for inviting me, Peter. That was very kind of you. I've greatly enjoyed the match. But I'm gonna go, go now because it's obvious that Wales are going to lose. And I don't believe walking through the crowds at the end with people shouting out to me, hey, what do you think of that, Tom? Or whatever.

5:30

Yeah, you were.

5:45

I thought that was entirely reasonable. He left. Literally within five minutes, Wales had scored two tries and they won the game. Poor old Tom Brady. Old Tom. But why?

5:46

I never thought we'd be talking about Tom Jones at a rugby batch on this TV podcast.

5:57

Poor Tom's equip from King.

6:00

Let's get to the story. So we got somebody here who's suffering from a well known disease called anecdotitis. I myself am a sufferer.

6:02

I've caught it from you, Jimmy. I've never told an actor in my life, well, you should wear a mother.

6:11

You should wear a mask on these podcasts.

6:16

So, yes, this is the news. We're finally getting to the point of the story.

6:19

Okay.

6:23

That ITV are planning to smuggle an ad break in while a scrum is, you know, while they're preparing for a scrum. Now actually, if you're a regular watch of rugby, you'll know there is no more boring part to a rugby match. How long they take about, well, the referee blows up for scrum, then there's an awful lot of shuffling around. They get into their packs.

6:24

Yeah.

6:42

They have to do a thing called binding and setting.

6:42

Homoerotic, isn't it?

6:45

So there is, there is cuddling, a.

6:46

Lot of cuddling going on.

6:48

There is time to smuggle in an ad break. I do get that. And yet somehow you feel, I mean, and of course they're a commercial broadcaster, they will be looking for all opportunities to make money. They can. You somehow feel rugby fans are not going to like this very much.

6:49

It depends what you're advertising.

7:03

Well, the equivalent of football. So breath fresh, you can understand it. The equivalent of football would be the referee blows. Blows a whistle for a penalty, let's say for a penalty.

7:05

But Peter Var takes three minutes.

7:13

Yeah. And while show micro drama, stick with the penalty. So while all the players are protect, the players on the defending team are protesting, the other ones are deciding who's going to shoot it. All that faffing is going on. Imagine if they went to an ad break.

7:16

Well, in NFL they do it all the time because there's so many breaks. There are timeouts, there's when they stop for a kick. I mean, it's stop, start, stop, start.

7:29

I mean, which I don't think you watch cricket. You could basically get an ad break in between.

7:39

Well, they do sometimes.

7:43

Every ball, when someone's out, they do always go. I find it very frustrating.

7:44

So in the Ashes, they were showing ads every. Every two. Two minutes when England were in.

7:48

You have been watching cr. But this is, this is in. This is an innovation and it's had a certain amount of publicity and I. I mean, often with innovations of this sort, there'll be a bit of a fuss. There'll be some, you know, people writing the Daily Telegraph, sort of old kernels saying, this is outrageous. And then after a while you get used to it and then they think, why don't we do Years ago.

7:52

Yeah.

8:11

Is that. Is that a.

8:12

Is that a summary of science? They'll be harking back to the good old days of the ads in the scrums. So, as Peter said, we've got a very special guest coming today and it's somebody I know. She is now currently the head of Factual at Plum Pictures, a company that I have an association with. She is a brilliant producer. Her name is Jill Wilson. She's done both sides of the fence. She's been a commissioning editor at Channel 4, where she was head of daytime and features, working under the great Jay Hunt. And she's also set up her own independent production company with Liz Warner called Betty. She has done everything in this business and finally she's doing this podcast.

8:13

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9:00

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9:27

So after that, we're just giving you a big intro.

10:06

I love that.

10:09

And we just said how brilliant you are.

10:10

Oh, I love that.

10:11

For me, I've got to know you a bit since you joined Plum and I'm just going to get this story out the way before we start, right. Because it's a story against me. But Jill had. You had this brilliant idea of doing a show called Love Letter to Lime Street.

10:12

I did.

10:27

Tell us about that.

10:27

Well, it was called Ticket To Ride.

10:28

Yeah. Ticket To Ride.

10:30

Yeah. Ticket To Ride. Love Letter to Lime Street. And you know, you may. It's hard to tell, I know, but Jimmy and I are both from Liverpool, so that's a small, small little place in the north.

10:30

Peter's feeling uncomfortable already.

10:39

How are you, Peter? Well, I'll keep.

10:41

He's got his hand on his wallet.

10:42

I've never. I've never actually been outnumbered in quite such stark terms.

10:43

I. I'm obsessed with Liverpool, Lime street and nothing that ever happens there is dull or boring.

10:48

And so you're obsessed with the railway station, Liverpool.

10:54

Find out why.

10:57

Yeah, because you go many times. What boring in there. Have you never seen Simon Rimmer from Saturday Kitchen being chased up a platform by a headlight shout? Never. What are you doing? Or a stag night where someone's just been cling filmed to one of the seats. Never.

10:58

Great television, Peter.

11:17

A Very sheltered Life.

11:19

I love it and it's never, never enjoyed.

11:20

And you've been trying for a while to get it.

11:22

Two years, Jimmy. I think you'll find it was two.

11:23

Years and they didn't reply. So who didn't reply?

11:26

So, no, I got sort of some vague, spurious feedback from Network Rail and some kind of even more spurious feedback from Avanti.

11:28

So I spoke to Jill about, said, well, I've got nowhere with it. And I said, well, why don't I contact the people in the council? Because I'm working with the Liverpool Council, but trying to get this school open for people who want to get into our industry in, In Liverpool.

11:36

Have you heard about this school?

11:49

She's. She's going to help Jimmy.

11:51

Jimmy does quite a lot for charity. He doesn't like to talk about it.

11:53

No, no, no, it's not charity. I'm going to make a lot of money out of this. No, the best kind of charity. So I spoke to them. And you got an email from them.

11:55

Jimmy did that brilliant thing that Jimmy is unique at doing. Open the door. Right. So I said, okay. So I ran straight through it and I got the. The people from Avanti and Network Rail on the call and they were, they were. They basically. They got on to say, no, you're all right. We've. We have a lot of requests to do those sorts of things. And then I pushed and I pulled and wiggled and jiggled and I kind of said, honestly, it would be fantastic for the city. And I genuinely. My mother lives there. She will have me hung, drawn and quartered and pulled through the streets. She'll separate me from me breath if I say anything bad about Liverpool. And he said, you know what, Come on, then.

12:05

So hang on, has this happened or is this.

12:42

Well, well, Jimmy see me after class. Because in the interim between them saying yes and now, Jimmy had done a little interview with the Daily Telegraph in which he had described Avanti as shit.

12:44

Oh, yeah, that's the way you mean. He'd tell the truth in a Telegraph.

12:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this.

13:01

This didn't go to the very dangerous thing to do.

13:03

It was a dangerous thing to do. And guess what popped into the press cuttings of the Avanti communication office that day? Peter? Yes. So the email I got from the man saying we were absolutely going to let you in and start filming in July, and I do believe your boss then went and called us. Shit.

13:06

I mean, it's unlike me to speak without thinking. As Owen will tell you, he actually. He's off the beta blockers now. Yeah, he's now on heroin.

13:24

He's moved straight to the hospital.

13:36

So I'm here. I'm here to publicly apologize, Jill. For putting a spoke in there.

13:38

Jill, can I say what you and I've got in common?

13:43

Yes.

13:45

Because I accept that I'm not from Liverpool and feel a bit excluded.

13:46

Please.

13:49

But I want to make. Joe, by the way, you and I have both worked, both on a commission in of terms side and on the production side.

13:49

We have. We have been poacher 10 gatekeeper term. Poacher again.

13:55

Exactly.

13:59

And what's the difference?

14:00

It's huge. Yeah, it's huge. The difference would you say that? Pizza?

14:02

Yeah, it's different, but not in the ways you might always assume it's different. So I think if you're a producer, you think as a commissioner, I don't want to say you think it's easy, but what are you going to choose? You've got to choose. And that is true to a degree. But as a commissioner you feel very exposed when you make choices. You say, I'm going to commission that program rather than that one.

14:07

Yeah.

14:26

And if that program doesn't work, you feel it's got your fingerprints all over it. And so I think, and we're probably in quite a small minority here, wouldn't it be great if more people could have an opportunity to work on both sides of the fence at some point in their career? Because you naturally then empathize with people on the other side of the fence. And when I joined the commissioning side, I had commissioning colleagues who I quit quite quickly. Realize you've never been a producer.

14:27

Yeah.

14:52

You don't really get it. You don't understand it from their point of view. And of course, if you've only been a producer such as, you know, the other person here in this conversation, I.

14:53

Feel very left out at this point.

15:03

You have, you can sometimes have quite a sort of. I don't know what the word I'm looking for. Is it high handed or critical or, you know, you can characterize commissioners in ways that you would. Wouldn't do if you became a commissioner.

15:04

Well, what you, you, I read that you had discovered something about the percentage of no's that you were, that the commissioning team were, were making.

15:17

Yeah. I mean quite high. Well, from. I think there's the two things that I really to beat his point. A lot of commissioners, if they haven't worked in television, producers don't understand that it's a miracle if anything gets on the telly. Yeah, it's a miracle if anything makes it from the page onto the screen. It is nothing short of pull someone. It's taken someone, it's taken someone's life there. So it's considerably shortened someone's life there. And as a commissioner I did some, I did a proper piece of work actually rather than back of a fag packet. I worked out that 97% of ideas given to a commissioner will be turned down.

15:27

And this is when you were running daytime and features at Channel 4.

16:07

Yes. So I run the whole of what is now lifestyle at Channel 4. And then Jaehunt said to Me, by the way, darling, you now do daytime. And I said, okay, smashing. And a good percentage of more for. And I was like, okay, okay. And so just did that.

16:10

She phrased it in a way you couldn't say no.

16:26

Yeah.

16:28

That's unlike Jay.

16:29

Tell us a bit about working with Jay, because Jay is a big figure in the industry.

16:30

Yes.

16:33

A strong character. Brilliant. You know, first time I met Jay, I've never met anybody who speaks in such perfectly formed sentences, including kind of, you know, parentheses and colons, whatever. There's no arming and erring in a J sentence.

16:33

I think they based AI on her.

16:48

The thing is, with Jay, she talks, you know, bodo Jay talks incredibly quickly.

16:52

Yes.

16:59

And I talk really quickly.

16:59

You know, if. You know, if you listen to radio ad sometimes at the end it's something to do with mortgages. And what it said, we need to let you know that your home will be at risk if you don't. If you don't pop your mortgage thing. Bloody blood. Blah. This has all been regulated by the. That's Jay Hunt.

17:01

Absolutely. So Jay would be in a meeting. I would then go into a meeting to, you know, we have our routines and we'd be pitching up and down. So then I'd start talking incredibly quickly. And then basically people couldn't listen as fast as we talked or genuinely. And she said, we've got to stop this at some point. It's kind of wicked. So working for Jay was in nine years, and it's the equivalent of a flight to Australia. Nothing will be that difficult again.

17:14

Yeah.

17:43

Do you know what I mean? But it makes you battle hard. Like, I am challenging. So challenging. And people got. People do their best work for Jay. I think a lot of the time.

17:44

She'S amazing at getting back to you. Whenever I send her something or an email or something, I get an email back almost before I finish the email. I mean, say no.

17:53

She gives you the fastest notes in.

18:03

The industry, which is great because it's Quick note is our second favorite answer.

18:06

She absolutely can see the whole industry in 3D. That's what I think about Jay is she can do the micro. The macro. She sees the whole picture in. I can see it kind of framed in her mind at any one time.

18:10

Some would say, Joe.

18:23

Yeah.

18:25

That she would make a good director general of the BBC.

18:25

Yeah. What. What do you think, Peter?

18:28

No, no, you can't. You're our guest. We're asking the questions, you're giving us the answers.

18:29

Yeah. I. I mean, right. Firstly, I think she'd make A brilliant director general of the BBC because someone needs to stand up for it. Right? So someone needs to have.

18:36

She would definitely do that and she.

18:45

Would stand up for it. Now Jay's a polarizing figure. Okay, show me a genius who isn't. Show me somebody who's brilliant who isn't.

18:47

I like that.

18:55

Yeah. Apart from Tim Hinks is the only person in the entire industry who isn't a polarizing figure.

18:55

Everyone.

19:00

Right?

19:00

So Jimmy and I are polarizing.

19:01

Oh yeah. People think you're amazing.

19:03

He is. He is. He likes the. He sort of slightly revels.

19:05

No, I always think, I always think that when someone says, oh, so and so said I met so and the other day, oh my God, they had a few things say about you. And I check out who was it? And they name them and go, oh, thank God for that. I'm glad he doesn't like me.

19:08

Yeah, absolutely.

19:18

Because if everyone likes you, you're not doing it right.

19:19

I think she'd make a brilliant director general A. Because she is whip smart. She can, she's always been able to. I've seen a daft. Watched a buy and sell Theresa May effortlessly. You know this. She's a brilliant politician, she's a brilliant. She's brilliantly able to manage. You know, when we were at Channel four, she was like, we are too left wing. If someone had voted Brexit in this building, they could never say it. And you shouldn't be in a position where you can't say it. You should be able to have a robust conversation.

19:22

Otherwise you're in like a totalitarian state.

19:52

So. And she genuinely does have a 360 degree thing. But the BBC does need someone to fight for it. It needs someone who's not agnostic about its future. It needs someone to fight for it and she'd do that.

19:55

So what we. We've had a couple of guests on and we talk to them about, you know, what's happening now. But I'm always intrigued about how people get into the business.

20:06

Okay, So I was in a pub in Liverpool and my mate, what other Scouser, Simon o' Brien wafted over, I'm in the Cobden in Morton Waft over and goes, look, I'm working on this football program, okay? And he said, they need a girl who knows anything about football. And this is pre Peter Ladette and this pre Sarah Cox, pre Zoe.

20:15

What year is this roughly?

20:34

Oh God, this is 92. Okay, right then he's a girl who needs something about football. BBC standing room only. BBC2, he was presenting it at the time. He said, they just can't find together. He said, I think it's like a. A human, a human resources thing that they need to. They need to get a girl. And so I said, oh. He said should write to them. So okay, I'll write to them. So I wrote CV and that saying that, you know, I'd wait in a bar and it hits someone's desk at BBC Manchester. And they think for some reason, God only knows why, that I know Alan.

20:35

Yentophobia, everybody, to be fair, everybody knew.

21:07

Did you say you knew?

21:11

Completely credible. Have you said, oh, Alan's a friend of mine. Nobody would have doubted it, Peter, I.

21:13

Had no freaking idea who Alan Yentob was. Not in a million years. No.

21:17

That is a worry.

21:22

So they agreed to see me. So this is 1992. They agreed to see me.

21:23

So once you got that job you were in.

21:26

I was in.

21:28

When did you eventually come to London then? What, what, what forced you to the south?

21:29

Obviously a man.

21:33

Okay, man.

21:35

Obviously a man. But on the way. So I became one of the camp, you know, the first camera operators who. It was terrible at the time because Granada wouldn't.

21:36

You brought your photos of yourself.

21:45

I'm a self cleaning oven.

21:47

Those who are listening to this podcast rather than watching. Jill has just produced some holiday snacks.

21:48

I have. Yeah. Self cleaning oven. In terms of being a producer, Peter, I've bought my own props.

21:53

She has.

21:58

I thought I would show you the like the early years.

22:00

Let's have a look. Oh, brilliant.

22:03

I mean, you won't recognize this girl, but it was her first job. I wonder whatever happened to her.

22:04

All right, so who is that? That is Claudia. Because you discovered this is. No, this is our big reveal in the show, people.

22:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

22:18

Don't it up. It's you discovered.

22:18

Do you mean Jimmy telling me not to it up? It's a weekly. Weekly occurrence. Believe me, it never makes the edit.

22:24

So Claude and I to this show called Pyjama Party, which was Andy Harris. Right. Who's going. Spencer, are we gonna put pajamas on.

22:30

The back of our podcast?

22:40

It sounds like exhibit A in the court case.

22:41

Yeah, it does. So it was Katie Pockrick, a lot of girls in pajamas, and me and Andy Harris. And Andy Harris and Spencer Campbell. I mean honestly, we buggered about on this show called Pyjama Party and it was just me and Claude would go off and do the vts.

22:43

Right.

22:58

Armed with.

22:59

Hang on. Were you in front of the camera at this stage? No, you're behind the camera.

22:59

She's in front of the camera.

23:03

Okay.

23:04

She's never done any telly. I've done football shows. Right. So there's the two of us legging it around. I've got a camera bag and in the camera bag is obviously the camera.

23:05

Yeah.

23:16

Three or four Moscow mules. Right, of course. And when we were on the way back and a bit hungover, Burger King, chicken Supremes, obviously.

23:17

Nice.

23:25

So we just did what we wanted, Right. So we said, right, let's go and be paparazzi. So, like the Brit Awards or something. So she's got a paparazzi camera shouting, you know, Ronan, Ronan. Turns. She's her first Roland. Turn round. Anyway, we blag our way in, obviously. And then Claudia Winkle and Mel and I had the great honour of being unceremoniously kicked out of Peter Andre's VIP area of the branch.

23:26

Really is a proud claim, isn't it?

23:55

It was a really. It was a big pinchy at the moment.

23:56

Peter Andre vi, if that's not an oxymoron. This is when you're in London.

23:58

No, this was all in bb. This was in Bernardo.

24:03

We are going through Jills in real time. Don't rush ahead. Don't rush ahead. Let's do month by month.

24:06

I want to get to the bit where you set up your own independent production company.

24:13

Oh, Liz.

24:16

What?

24:16

Yes, I think we should get ahead of that and we should. We need to talk about the, you know, state of the industry like that. When you look back in the 90s and we. And people obviously do look back at the 90s.

24:17

Well, it's in the past, Peter.

24:27

So they sometimes look at. They sometimes look at things that, you know, television programs were made then and commissioned that and think, how did they ever commission that? I mean, we, for instance, at Expectation, we made a series a couple of years ago called. It was based on a show called the Something About Miriam.

24:28

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do, absolutely.

24:45

So it's a show that was made in the 90s. And so somebody commissioned it, somebody produced it, somebody thought it was a good idea, somebody came up with the idea. And it's this thing about a bunch of blokes falling in love with somebody who they believe is a. Is a woman. And turns out. Yeah, and. And so you look at it through a modern lens and you think, how on earth did television ever think that was an appropriate form of Entertainment in the 90s? Do you find that as you look back at the nights and also, I'm kind of Pulling it forward to the modern age. I know when you were at Channel four, you. You. You were responsible, I think, for bringing merit at first sight onto the screen.

24:47

Yes.

25:23

And. And again, this is a show that goes, you know, goes somewhere that many people will be surprised to see reality programming going. Although.

25:24

Yes.

25:33

I'm fascinated to know, do you think the world is different now or that we look at the world through a different lens and. And do you think we've lost something or gained something?

25:34

It's an interesting question. We made with lovely Tim Hinks. We had a. We created a show.

25:45

He's your partner, Peter.

25:51

He's the person who said he's toughened through amnesia.

25:53

When it comes to some of the worst things that Endermole made in the 90s, he suddenly wasn't in the room.

25:56

Like doctors, we bury our mistakes. I've shown you before.

26:01

Anyway, what's the one you made with lovely Tim Hinks?

26:05

Snog Mario Void. It was a hazy idea. He says it was his idea, actually, so.

26:07

Well, success has many parents and orphans.

26:14

Is it for failure? Well, no, actually, it was his. He came. He came and said, look, here's this concept. And then actually, well, that sort of.

26:17

Make it his idea.

26:26

So his idea was to make unto some girls. It ended up being a show which had a talking computer, but that was called. I mean, literally, the Times said, like, this is the downfall of human civilization.

26:27

The end of civilization.

26:39

Yeah. Honestly, you know, so have we lost or have we gained? I think it's an equilibrium. I think what is shocking to one generation isn't shocking to another. I think that in terms of carefree times, money are more a constraint necessarily than morality. So I think that if budgets were greater, I think more chances are being taken on the Internet, which means that.

26:40

Less, I think the way moral choices.

27:03

Are being made in the mainstream in.

27:05

What we broadly call reality television.

27:07

Yes.

27:09

The way we treat people who agree to be part of it, whether you're talking about a dating show or a talent show, has changed and that's all for the better. In other words.

27:10

Yes.

27:21

The duty of care. And I think it's fair to say there's a sort of Wild west era. And I'm not particularly pointing a finger at Endermeal or anywhere in particular where duty of care to contestants and to contributors.

27:21

Yes.

27:36

Was not high on the list.

27:36

Yes.

27:37

And it is much more now. We wouldn't want to go back to those days.

27:38

No, absolutely not. Absolutely. But I think there was. I think there was also a Kind of. There were people. We wouldn't. Duty of care is inherent in a lot of producers. So I. In terms of. We made a lot of.

27:41

That's called being a human being, isn't it?

27:54

Yeah. But some people don't care.

27:56

No.

27:57

I know there's a lot of documentary makers who would say you need to seduce to betray.

27:58

Yeah.

28:02

You know, you've got to get people to tell you their story so that then you can.

28:03

And then you let them.

28:06

But then they would defend that in pursuit of something quite different to the sort of television you're describing. They defend that in relation to serious documentary making.

28:06

It depends on your definition of documentary.

28:18

Sure.

28:20

Tell me about, though. When you started Betty.

28:21

Yes.

28:23

You did a show very much in this area, which was very delicately done.

28:24

Yes.

28:28

Which is your first big. Was it your first big hit with.

28:29

Joy of Teen Sex?

28:31

Joy of Teen Sex. But was. Did you. Am I wrong in saying you did the Undate.

28:33

Undateables, yes. So the Undateables was a little bit after my time, but it was. Was very much in the BET ethos. I mean, Betty, Liz and I started it. We rented a room off Brian Hill from Century Films, a brilliant documentary maker, 75 quid a week. And Betty, not a very good landlord. He was a terrible landlord, but he's a lovely man.

28:37

But.

28:59

Yeah. No, the Undateables was in that brilliant tradition of. And several have been done since, which is that you have to occasionally bring people in on a title which is. Belies its content.

29:00

I think that you're right is that trying to get the attention now of the audience is getting more and more difficult because there's just more choice, isn't it?

29:14

There is and it. But it is. It is a really tricky thing to do to then not. You know, I have a profoundly autistic son and we started the show for Channel 4 called How Autistic Are you? You're either. It's Autism's like being pregnant. You either are or you aren't.

29:23

Yeah.

29:38

Or the autistic community didn't like. Or they were nothing. It's fair to say they weren't happy. So I went and met them. They said. I said, what if we call it, you know, am I your sister? Yeah, that'd be fine. You know, but it's like, right, maybe less people watch it in the Right.

29:39

But just that point about it's harder and harder to get people's attention, you would think. Therefore, the logical extreme of that is that that route of shock titles will be a way of getting people's attention. But actually that sort of little era died out quite quickly in a way. And now the shows that, that really command people's attentions, like the Traitors or whatever, are actually quite upmarket shows really. They're not, they're not sort of, you know, sort of sort of going down to base instincts or whatever. They're sophisticated, brilliant, you know, So I, I think I'm. I'm sort of still riffing away on how's the culture changed for the better or the worse and thinking probably it's changed mostly for the better. And yet as you speak about it.

29:51

Yes.

30:39

And you speak about it with such an infectious enthusiasm, you sort of think, yeah, but we've lost something as well.

30:40

I think there is, I think that the amount of mavericks in television, the amount of mavericks both in commissioning and in producing, I think maybe it's just one of those cyclical things, but I think that there are less as it's become more of a business. I would say for me, I've watched television go like football to, to a stage where it's highly honed and the money is greater, the wins are greater, and therefore I think that the maverick opportunities are less, you know.

30:46

But yeah, I mean, go Back to your 97, Jill. It's not surprising as it might first seem, I think, because when you're commissioning programs, there will be, you could say, in a sense, you could quite crudely divide into three groups. And the only group that's a problem to you is the second group.

31:16

Yes.

31:35

The first group being things. Of course you're gonna commission it.

31:35

Yeah.

31:38

Andy Harris turns up in my office and says, me and, and Stephen Daldry and Peter Morgan are all there. Two Oscar winners and Andy Harris. We've got this thing called the crown. So you don't think, oh, should I commission that? You think, how can I get it? It's a no brainer.

31:38

Yeah.

31:54

And then there's plenty of stuff where you think, why are you pointing at me? When you think this is either because it's from people who, you know, haven't made programs, but they're, you know, trying to get in, good luck to them. But that's gonna be difficult. Or because they're ideas we've seen half a dozen times already. Whatever. They're the immediate nos.

31:54

Yeah.

32:13

Your job where you earn your salary is on the third group in the middle.

32:13

Yeah.

32:17

And the same is true of recommissions.

32:18

Yeah.

32:19

You know, a big hit, you don't have to sit and think, shall I recommit it. No, obviously you're going to recommission Downton Abbey, let's say something that totally tanks. It probably won't be recommissioned, although in particular in some genres like comedy, there's an argument that. And there's plenty of case. Case studies to show the show that didn't do very well first series, by the fourth series. It's a huge.

32:20

It's the argument I always make when the first series has failed.

32:43

Yeah, exactly.

32:45

You point to the wait.

32:47

You got to wait for.

32:48

Let it.

32:49

And. But the. The hard works around the bit in the middle.

32:51

Yeah.

32:53

I've heard the expression, you know, you do a first series.

32:54

Yeah.

32:56

And it does. Okay.

32:56

Yeah.

32:57

And it's the most frightening expression I've ever heard is someone said to me, well, now it's down to broadcast the discretion.

32:58

Yes.

33:04

Oh, my God. So now they're going to sit in the room and they're going to weigh up and down because it's not a definite no. As you said, it's not a definite yes. It's in that big gray area.

33:05

But broadcasting discretion sounds a bit depressing. But algorithm discretion is more.

33:14

Yeah.

33:19

You know, there is an argument in the world of the streamers and algorithms and metadata and everything that there's a job to be done to commission first series and after that you just let the algorithm tell you.

33:20

But I also think now, actually, the ability to know what channels want is so much clearer. And that is brilliant because. Oh, God, it's. Now you can hit a target, now you can go, I think you want that. And I think the broadcaster's reasons for wanting something to crystal clear. So in a way, you're. I feel now more excited because I feel that the relationship with the viewer is far more immediate. So I can. In a funny sort of way, the commissioners are kind of. And. And all of the. Especially with the algorithm go, this is exactly what they want.

33:30

When I was. When I was on the commissioning side, I. Obviously, you always have to say what you're looking for. And I always thought. I always thought, all right, I will reluctantly say what we're looking for. But what we're looking for is a hit. And what we're looking for might be the exact opposite of what we think we're looking for. And I'm sure we'd all agree on this as producers, if all you do is distill what they said.

34:05

Festival.

34:27

I didn't. Absolutely. Yeah, of course.

34:27

Is it. Is it good? I don't care if you want it. Is it good?

34:30

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you, you, you.

34:33

You know, you.

34:35

You want to be surprised. I mean, the trouble. I mean to your point about the Edinburgh Festival, is when you've done a few of those, it's so difficult not to regurgitate cliches and talking kind of truisms and platitud. Oh, I want to be surprised in a way. You can see the audience go, oh, that old cliche. I don't. I don't envy people who have to endlessly. And this is true of all commissions and child controls who have to endlessly articulate something because it's part of the job to do. So.

34:35

Yeah.

35:03

When trying to express it in a fresh way becomes ever more so.

35:03

What. What's the worst show you've ever made, then?

35:07

The worst show I've ever made.

35:09

Bless the ones you mentioned already.

35:11

Oh, that's nice.

35:13

Honestly. And some of those major co. Founder expectation. Terribly wealthy, I'd like to tell you.

35:17

Terribly wealthy.

35:25

Oh, he hides it from me.

35:26

Mention it to me.

35:28

Well, I'm. I'm gonna get my little book out here, the Worship.

35:30

Any shows you look back on, I.

35:37

Think, what's the best show you've ever made?

35:38

The best show I've ever.

35:41

Go positive.

35:42

The best show I've ever.

35:43

What are you most proud of? I tell you what, it's your BAFTA lifetime achievement award. You need to put a few things on the tape.

35:44

Okay, I know what I put on mine.

35:53

What would you put on yours?

35:54

Well, I d. To know what you put on yours.

35:55

I haven't a clue. I've never given it a moment's thought.

35:57

Shall I tell you what I put on mine?

36:00

Go on.

36:01

I like the way you did that.

36:05

Yeah, okay. All right, go on.

36:06

I would put on their great canal journeys with Tim and PR Because I commissioned that and we'd gone for a lunch. I went to their house with Nick Bullen, and we went to their house and Prue was already in quite advanced stages of dementia, and we went and we all had lunch and she had made us prawn salad. And she did that fantastic thing that older ladies do, which I'll be doing very soon, which is she'd given out everyone prawns, and then there was some left, so she counted them round, you know, it's just gorgeous. And still obsessed with canals, you know, they were the. The ambassadors for the kennet nave and just amazing. And I said to Tim, look, you know, you are where you are with Pru. Do you want to make this show? Like, do you want to make it and he said, well, I would love to. I said, but can we. Can we look at your relationship with. With Prue in relation to her dementia? And he said, can I speak to Sam and the kids? And I said, yeah, obviously. And he came back and said, yes. And I think it has been one of the most positive portrayals of dementia. And I'm. It went for five or six seasons and no one was ever saying, well, you. You know, you must do this or you must do. It was very much about hair. Dealing with them as a family, dealing with hair dementia in a way that wasn't trying to pull her back into the present or did it.

36:07

It was giving you a great insight into the way dimensional develop.

37:28

And also, it was a love story.

37:32

It was a love. They loved each other. He was forever crashing that bloody boat. And he don't show the crashes. I was like, the crashes are the best.

37:33

Working with me and Jimmy, do you think you see any telltale signs?

37:42

Not a one.

37:46

My memory. My memory isn't what it was. And I'll tell you something else. My memory isn't what it was.

37:48

I walked right in the doors of that. I walked straight through them.

37:53

Can I just say, because, full disclosure, Jill and I are kind of associated colleagues, because Hat Trick has a minority interest in Plum Pictures.

37:58

That's very right.

38:07

And sparing her blushes, I attended a meeting where Stuart and Jill led the pitch, if you like, and they describe what their activities are over the next year or two. And I said to Jill at the end, would you come and pitch my show? She's a brilliant picture, which, as you know, is really important in our business. But it's. It's. And you're saying about the business now being more targeted and more precise, and it was the most targeted, if you like, business plan or creative plan that I've actually ever seen, I thought was brilliantly done. And so do you think. But do you think you're going to pull it off? Because all those things in the way. How do you see the next 12 months in the business in terms of the macro, in wanting to spend money.

38:08

We just sort of metamorphose into an internal Hatrick meeting.

38:57

Yeah. If you're lucky, I'll give you a job.

39:01

I. I think we're incredibly kind of lucky. And that also, Peter, very sadly, our great co founder, Will Doors passed away.

39:08

Yes.

39:18

And one of the most brilliant suddenly, very suddenly, before Christmas. And he understood what I was saying effortlessly. So my pictures to him were ever eminently more successful. He left us a great Legacy. And as we know, a lot of television that works is like with Claudia, it's about who you're working with. And I think we're blessed in this generation in that we've got on screen partners who we work with who are absolutely brilliant. And I think the bringing together of ideas and our, you know, want of a better word, they all thought talent, you know, becoming more collaborative will left us a great foundation of that and I think a really, you know, piece. So it's always the same, isn't it? It's format, access, cast, and the big one is the T at the bottom, which is talent. And I feel immensely optimistic about the future of television and content in general because of the just fantastic array of talent.

39:18

Well, you have got relationships with fantastic on screen talent, you know, James Mayer, etc. Etc. And, and of course, in terms of Plum itself, as you said, it had a massive shock before Christmas when we lost Will. And I know, Stuart, you know, if you. They came to me 18 years ago when they were setting up, I had a meeting with them, but they're both working at the BBC and I said at the end of the meeting, I don't, I don't know where you're going to land, but leave the BBC. I said, you're entrepreneurs, you are, you're not just mavericks, you're entrepreneurs. You need to spread your wings. And RDF at the time had made them a deal and we made them exactly the same deal and thank God they came to us because it has been a really great relationship where you, you know, we're making a drama of one of their documentaries, Last Chance Lawyer, Lawyer. And what I've seen is that, you know, the, the will is gone. But I think that what's happened is there are new relationships forming in that business and that's how the resilience of the independent sector is always, for me, it's like, it's mind boggling sometimes. I mean, how positively you dealt with this and, you know, and, and looking forward to the future. I think, you know, someone like Will, he'd have reacted in exactly the same way.

40:20

My beautiful Will, my beautiful wild dogs, who I miss all the time. I miss him all the time because he would generally tell me to, you know, the optimism, Peter, he was, he was. I said if we could go to Sainsbury's with optimism, we'd never go hungry because he was, and he was one of the people who. We just rode through the kind of the downturn in television in the same way. It's like neris Evans is always in your.

41:30

Well, last week we were. I was comparing Jimmy as an independent producer to him as an Everton fan. In other words, resilience. No stranger to pain, no stranger to things not going as you like. Yeah, stick at it.

41:53

But also, you've got to suspend your disbelief.

42:06

This is where the interview falls apart. I start.

42:11

I realize I've opened a can of worms there. Well, listen, Jill, it's been fantastic.

42:13

Brilliant. Oh, but I knew it would be.

42:18

And he knew it would be. Of course he did.

42:20

I commissioned it immediately.

42:25

Very skeptical. Should we have Joe Wilson on what we did? And it's been absolutely.

42:27

Thank you, Joe.

42:30

Thank you.

42:30

Thank you very much for having me. I'm thrilled and honored.

42:31

That's all for this week. Thanks very much for listening. Any questions about the world of television that you've always wanted to ask, send them our way. We'd love to hear from you.

42:33

Yes, you can contact us through our emails, on our socials. It's all in the description.

42:40

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42:44

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42:47

Thanks for listening.

42:54

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