#489 – Paul Rosolie: Uncontacted Tribes in the Amazon Jungle

The following is a conversation with Paul Rosalie, his third time on the podcast. Paul is a naturalist, explorer, writer, and is someone who has dedicated his life to protecting the Amazon rainforest and celebrating the beauty of the natural world. He has a new book coming out in a few days titled Jungle Keeper. You should definitely go pre-order now. It tells some intense stories about his time in the jungle over the past several years, building up to a few epic recent events, including a new full-on extended encounter with an uncontacted tribe that we discuss in this podcast. Both the book and audiobook are great. I highly recommend it. If you would like to support Paul and his incredible team in their mission to protect the jungle, go to junglekeepers.org. You can help with donations or by spreading the word or checking out the gala that Paul is hosting in New York on January 22nd in a few days. They are doing all they can to help raise funds for the mission of safeguarding as much of the rainforest as possible. And I think it's a mission worth fighting for. The Amazon jungle is one of the most special and beautiful places on earth. As an aside, allow me to look back briefly and mention something that I've been struggling with a bit. For context, I traveled to the Amazon rainforest with Paul a while back. It was an adventure of a lifetime with lots of crazy twists and turns. We did record a podcast out there, literally in the jungle, episode 429 if you want to go check it out. It was awesome. And we also recorded a bunch of disparate footage of the journey, just for fun. And I would still love to somehow put all that together into a cohesive video, in case it's interesting to someone. But I've learned just how difficult it is to organize and edit a pile of chaotically recorded footage like that. So, let's see if I can pull it off. But in any case, this kind of raw vlog-style video is something that I would love to be able to do more of, as a way to celebrate amazing human beings like Paul and others, including everyday people who I meet on my travels. So I'll keep trying, tinkering, learning, and I ask for your patience and support along the way. Now, back to our regular scheduled programming. And now a quick few-second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description or at lexfriedman.com slash sponsors. It is, in fact, the best way to support this podcast. We've got Perplexity for curiosity-driven knowledge exploration, BetterHelp for mental health, Element for electrolytes, Shopify for selling stuff online, FIN for customer service AI agents, Miro for brainstorming ideas with your team, and Masterclass, of course, for learning. Choose wisely, my friends. And now on to the full ad reads. 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I've been reading a lot about the history of psychiatry recently. preparing for this gigantic super episode on the history and the current state-of-the-art across the board in psychiatry. And it's such a fascinating history. If it reveals anything, it reveals just how complicated the human mind is. just how difficult, how heavy, how important the chaos our mind takes us through on a daily basis. And I've always been a big believer that the sort of psychotherapy approach, talking, talk therapy in all of its different forms, is a really powerful method of exploring that. Anyway, BetterHelp is easy, discreet, affordable, available worldwide. worldwide, check them out at betterhelp.com slash lex and save on your first month. That's betterhelp.com slash lex. This episode is also brought to you by Element, my daily zero sugar and delicious electrolyte mix. I take one packet, usually I put it in a, uh, one of those larger Powerade bottles, mix it up, put it in the fridge and then, uh, drink it throughout the day. I drink several throughout the day, especially before and after an intensive workout where I know I'm going to lose a lot of water, a lot of electrolytes, I replenish. 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It's really inspiring to see how quickly he's evolving, how quickly he's learning, how much he's building. And same with Toby. He just basically vibe-coded, I think, an MRI viewer. I mean, it's just incredible that these people who have been programming their whole life are just 10xing their productivity. And adding the fun back in it, like a weekend project where you can build any random thing, is also really inspiring to me that this particular company has so much value at the very top of the executive level, down to the developers, Just the whole team, just so much value for engineering, and it makes me excited to use the thing they're doing. In this particular case, Shopify. You can set up a store, sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com.lex, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com.lex to take your business to the next level today. 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A person I've never gotten a chance to interact with, but I am a huge fan of. Huge fan of everything he's created in this world is Scorsese, Martin Scorsese. Probably one of, if not the greatest filmmaker of all time. Just incredible genius. I can't. As a director, as an editor, as a visionary, as a storyteller, all of it. Genius. So anyway, go to masterclass.com slash LexPod to get an additional 50% off any annual membership. That's 15% off at masterclass.com slash LexPod. This is the Lex Friedman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here's Paul Rosling. we've survived a challenging time out in the jungle about a year and a half ago and since then your life has increasingly gotten more intense so you've achieved the incredible feat of saving now more than 130,000 acres of rainforest. And the goal is that you're working towards is protecting 200,000 acres more. And doing so while facing extreme danger from narcos, narco traffickers, so-called cocaine mafia in an escalating drug war. This is insane. These are new developments. Illegal loggers, as we've talked about before, gold miners, and the incredible recent encounter with a non-contacted tribe. And we'll talk about all of this. So your new book, Jungle Keeper, opens with the killing of two loggers by the warriors of a non-contacted tribe, the Mashka Piro, in August 2024. And then you reveal that you had your own dramatic encounter with the tribe two months later in October 2024. So if I may, let me read the opening of the book. Far out on the western edge of the Amazon rainforest, deep in the Peruvian jungle, a pair of loggers plunged their chainsaws into the buttressed roots of an ancient ironwood. An ironwood, or shihuahuaco, of this size is a giant among giants, an emergent sentinel that reaches heights of 160 feet, towering over the rest of the canopy. I've read that many are over 1,000 years old, by the way, as an aside, and you've found ones that are 1,200 years old. Yes, incredibly old. Anyway, you continue. This particular tree had started its life as a tiny sapling in the great jungle, a story that began before the Spanish reached Peru, long before the United States was even a dream, at a time when Leonardo da Vinci was still honing his talents in the faraway part of the world. through the Renaissance, the First and Second World Wars, and the birth of our grandparents. This tree was out there slowly charging upward, anonymous, just one pillar among the billions of others. But on this day, in August 2024, when the two loggers worked, this witness of the centuries came crashing down through the canopy with such cataclysmic power that it shook the earth. and then you go on to talk about how the shaking of the earth was felt and heard by the uncontacted tribe. So you go on to describe how these particular loggers were murdered by the uncontacted tribe of Mashkopiro. What do we know about these warriors of the uncontacted tribe? We know that across the Amazon Basin, there's still perhaps thousands of clans of quote-unquote uncontacted peoples, people that are living in nomadic isolation in what remains of the intact Amazon Basin and want to remain that way. And so what happened with these loggers was that local people told them, don't go out there. Don't go into these territories. And what happens is that people that aren't from this thing with the jungle, people don't believe that it's as wild as the legends say. And so when they say there's kalatos out there, there's wild people out there, these loggers from another region go, yeah, it's some story. We're fine. We'll go. We have shotguns. They don't realize you're dealing with a civilization of people that is still nomadic, still uses bamboo-tipped arrows, still lives naked in the Amazon rainforest, has knowledge of medicines that we have yet to encounter or may never discover, and that they can hit a spider monkey out of the treetops at 40 meters. And so while you're using a chainsaw, they can sneak up and you will never know they're there. And so when that arrow passes through your body, you'll only have a moment to realize it before you fall over. And we're looking at something you posted on your Instagram, which are the arrows that they use, which are bigger than you. So they're like six, seven feet. Six, seven feet, more like seven feet. And that's incredibly sharp. They cure it over the fire, and they have a way of sharpening it. That edge of bamboo becomes incredibly knife sharp. You can cut meat with it easily. I've done it. These arrows, look at that. I mean, I'm 5'9". That's easily a seven-foot arrow. Yeah, so for people who are just listening, this quote-unquote arrow is really a spear. Some people would think of it as a spear, but they're shooting this thing with a gigantic bow. That's crazy. Yeah, and so to be holding that, look at that. They even twist the fletching so that the arrow spins in the air. They have incredible craftsmanship, and then you see all the little string on there is plant fibers that they've woven, and then this is them. yeah, the warriors of the tribe, the warriors of the tribe. And so the fact that we're sitting here talking on microphones and that we have airplanes and cell phones and all the things that we have in the modern world, and we still live in this age where there's, right now at this moment, people living out in the jungle who have been there since before history is an incredible thing. Let me lift this up on perplexity. What are the technologies? we modern humans have at the Mosh Capira do not. It's just interesting to think about the kind of technologies we take for granted. Energy and power, obviously, all the electricity generation and grids and batteries and solar panels and electric motors, metals and materials, mass-produced steel, aluminum, advanced alloys, plastics, composites, glass, concrete, all of those things. Tools, of course, and machinery, the infrastructure of roads and bridges and buildings, and the weapons of war, everything but the spears in the earth that they have, and the medicine and biology. Of course, they probably have complicated medicines that they have developed for their own. They're available within the jungle. That entire list is no. No. I mean, metal, I think you have to be able to excavate into the earth and forge metal. These people don't even, as one of the local anthropologists said to me, a Peruvian anthropologist, he said, you know, people think of them as Stone Age tribes. And he was like, they don't have stones. He's like, they don't, so they don't know that water, they see water that they drink. They don't know that water freezes because they've never seen it. They don't know what the water boils because they don't have, they don't even make clay pots. They just have their bamboo and their string. And so they're living an incredibly simple life. So all of that, I mean, even, you know, a camera is a miracle to them. Like, it's like, yeah, you have to bend your mind to even understand how far back they are. It's like looking into thousands of years ago, like Stone Age. Well, they hear the sounds of the chainsaws, the sounds of machinery in the distance. I wonder how they can possibly comprehend what that is. I think they view it as like a demonic destructive force. And when I show you the encounter that we had, we got a few takeaways. We left with more questions than answers, but one of the things that they were able to communicate across the language barrier was, why are you cutting down the trees? They don't like it. Yeah, that represents to them the danger that the outside world brings, the destruction that the outside world brings. They see us as the destroyers of worlds. So tell me about this encounter in October of 2024. So in order to tell you about that encounter, I think we need to orient people into where we're talking about. We're talking about this river that runs through the western edge of the Amazon rainforest that you know well now after spending time there with me. It's a high tributary of the Amazon rainforest where you have the main river channel and then smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller tributaries. And the smaller you get, the less trafficked they are. And so this river has remained wild through the centuries. And even during the 90s when there was a mahogany boom where people went out for mahogany trees, there's very few people going up this river. And so 20 years ago when I first got to the region and people were telling me that there's uncontacted tribes out there, it was always in the realm of something. You know, it's like people say there's Bigfoot or don't go there, it's haunted. It was like a tall tale almost. And even the Peruvian government at the time that I went to Peru first, which was 2006, their official position was that the tribes are a myth. There's no such thing as the tribes. That was the official position. And you would hear these stories of people that got shot. You'd meet someone high up a river four days up river deep in the Amazon that had an arrow. And you'd look at this thing, and it had this mega gravity. And so as we've created Jungle Keepers, and now we're protecting 130,000 acres of this river, we're protecting the plants and the animals and the ancient trees and trying to preserve the ecosystem and counting the butterflies and conducting ecological surveys. And what we've inadvertently found ourselves the caretakers of is the fact that these people, in order to continue living, have to remain isolated, want to remain isolated. That's their one mandate as a civilization, the tribes of the Mashko Piro. And so in October, we were, you know, as jungle keepers now, we're working with the indigenous people. What we do is we take loggers and gold miners and make them into rangers and give them better jobs. And we try to protect the forest. And those people who live up in the remote indigenous community, they called us on a satellite phone and they said, Directors, you've been working with us and telling us you want to help us. The tribes are coming out. What do we do? so even they don't really know when the tribes emerge from the deep jungle what to do they were terrified what was your thinking when you got the phone call when we got the phone call it was a mix of you know we should keep because we're over here like trying to get land concessions and doing all this important work and part of me was like that's that can't be real so we're going to keep our heads down bigfoot is emerging from the forest like yeah sure sure and then because we got the call we hung up and we said okay maybe tomorrow if they're like still there or something And then it was crazy because it was probably about noon, and we had an important day of meetings. We had a meeting with the police. We had a meeting with the landowner. We were trying to do all this stuff for the conservation work. And then I got together with the core team of directors, J.J., Mose, and Stefan, and we said, wait, if this is real, we have to get there like now. Like now, now. And so we dropped what we were doing, canceled the meetings. We put other people on the meetings. We got a boat. We called Ignacio. We called our most hardcore ranger who has been shot, who in 2019 was shot in the head by an arrow and still bears the scar. And he barely survived. And we said, look, this is going down. He said, I already know because the whole river already knows. And we said, can you get us there by tomorrow morning? And he said, look, it's a two-day journey by boat. So no. And we said, is there any way you can get us there? And he went, I'll get you there. and so we got a couple stacks of rice a couple cans of tuna our dry bags our tents we got on a boat by 6 p.m and we started riding up the river through the night through the night and so two-day boat journey that we're trying to flex in one night and so i was at the front with the with the headlamp with the torch and so the first few hours it was clear in that comet remember that comet that was going there was that comet in the sky i remember looking at the comet and going somehow I was like, this is it. I knew this was it. And the first few hours was clear and the stars was out and it was beautiful. And then it clouded over and the lightning started and then it just apocalypse downpoured. And from midnight until 8 a.m., it was just the front of the boat with the light. And it was just Star Wars vision of just, you know, raindrops and galaxies and moths flying in my eye. And people don't realize you can get hyperthermia in the tropics. But it's like as you're going at night, even if it's 80 degrees outside, in the rain, in the wind, at night, in a lightning storm, you're freezing. And so by, you know, 2 a.m., I'm convulsively shivering. And we're using the crocodile eyes, the Cayman eyes on the side of the river as because it was so dark, we couldn't see where we were going. So those shine back at you. So I was finding the Cayman eyes and then motioning with the light to Ignacio where to go. And he knew how to find the channel. We had to jump the waterfalls. We did the two-day boat ride in one night. Nice. And we got there, and we arrived at this community, and it's morning now, and the howler monkeys are calling over the jungle, and the little naked children are all by the side, and everyone's scared. And we get a hug from this guy, Bacho, who we know, and they're like, come in, come in, come in. And they're like, the tribe came out yesterday that we saw a few of them on the beach, and they're gone now. And so we collapsed. We fell asleep. rained the whole day. That night we went out and we looked for them and there was this crazy moment where we're standing on this beach and their footprints were there. And the local indigenous anthropologist was standing there and we're standing at the edge of this beach looking out into the Amazon beyond. And there's just all this wreckage. It looked like something very Cormac McCarthy, just dark sky, iron clouds. And we're standing there. everyone is waiting because at any moment an arrow could just fly through your neck and there's people holding shotguns and the anthropologist is little guy standing there in the front and he's going no mole he's going brothers there's only a few words that inter intersect between the languages and he's going brothers we're here we don't want to hurt you he's speaking in the yin language and he's saying come out and you can tell by their footprints the trackers explain this to us that you could see it was just the balls of their feet so right as we pulled up to the beach They'd run. So they were there listening to us. And he's going, no mole. Come out. It's okay. Lay down your arms. We'll lay down ours. No mole. Just kept saying no mole. And nothing happened. And we went back to the village. We went to sleep. We wake up the next morning. And it's 5 a.m. And again, we're trying to save the jungle. We're in a race against time to get these land concessions. And so my team, like Mosin and Stefan, J.J. couldn't come because he was in town actually signing paperwork and interviewing loggers and landowners. And also he didn't think that there was any chance this was going to be real because in his entire 50-something years in the Amazon, he's never seen them. And so we're getting ready to leave in the morning. We had tents on the boat, and Ignacio comes up to me and he goes, you're my director, right? You're my boss? And I went, yeah. He goes, I need to talk to you like a friend. I said, yeah, shoot, shoot, go. And he goes, you'd be an idiot to leave right now. He goes, they're coming. and so he convinced us to stay we pull our tents off the boat stefan and mosen go off with their cameras they start shooting you know people these are these are monkey eaters and fishermen the the the community that we're in and everything's quiet and i opened my laptop and i was working just writing writing my book and then then it happened then you start hearing people screaming mosh go mosh go and people are screaming and women are lifting children and running into the huts and the dogs and chickens are going nuts. So fear. Fear. Fear. Because we should say kind of the obvious thing is, as far as anyone remembers, any encounters, any minimal small encounters with these tribes have been violent, extremely violent. These tribes have remained alive because of their violence, almost like the Spartans or the Comanches. They seem to have adopted violence as a first response to contact. Maybe you can correct me on this, but I read that in the late 19th century, early 20th century, there was documentation of encounters with these tribes by the private armies of the rubber barons, and those encounters were, from the rubber barons' armies' perspective, violent. And so maybe the lesson they learned, the uncontacted tribes, is that any interaction with the outside world is going to have to be violent because they have to defend themselves. Yeah. You had colonial missionaries in the 1600s, 1700s, Then you had the rubber barons, the late 1800s into the 1900s, just periods of extraction and domination and cruelty. And these tribes, their grandparents must have told them, when the outside world comes, you shoot first. That's the only thing that's going to keep you alive. Do you think the memory of that, those violent encounters, is defining to how they think about the world? Yeah, because even in my lifetime there, in the 20 years I've spent in the Amazon, Ignacio was shot in the head. my friend Victor survived a violent encounter where they murdered somebody on a beach. I mean, they've shot numerous people. They've even shot people who were trying to help them. People are trying to give them clothing and bananas. They've just, they call it porcupining them, where they find a body on the beach with so many arrows that when they fall over, all the arrows are sticking up. And so they think, and they'll do it out of curiosity too, where it's like, hey, you're wearing a suit. That's weird. We've never seen anybody in a black and white suit. And then get a clothing. The way Teddy Roosevelt would shoot a bird for science, they're like, they just want to look at you. And so they're operating on a different, they don't have a moral system that we have or understand. They're just, they're truly wild. How does Ignacio think about them? Because they almost killed him. Yes. It depends on the mood you get him in. Because if you ask him, one day I asked him, I said, if you could see the people that shot you in the head, what would you say to them? And he looked at me with that Ignacio look. and he said I wouldn't say anything. I would kill as many of them as I could. I said okay. He also had a time where he was in a really remote guard station working for the Ministry of Culture and they showed up and he knew that they were going to kill him and so he climbed up into the peak of the little structure there and just like a dog in a car, that greenhouse effect in the top at midday with the sun beating down, he was huddled over a mattress while they were walking on the deck moving pots and pans and looking at our items and artifacts. And he knew that if he was found, they'd kill him. But if he stayed up there, he was literally frying to death. He said he was soaking the mattress. He could feel himself dying for two hours. He had to stay there. And he is constantly making this decision of if I come out, I die. If I stay here, I probably die. He's like, probably die is better than definitely die. So he was terrified. And so as they're screaming, Mosh, go! And everybody's running and women are lifting children. Ignacio comes and finds me. And you can see in his eyes. You can see when somebody has that PTSD response where he's breathing heavy. He's moving behind trees. He's keeping me close to him, and he's going, look there. He has a bow. He has a bow. And we're looking up the beach, and there's just this clan of naked men walking down the beach with these seven-foot bows, and they're hunched over, and they're pointing at us. They're going, look at that one. They're going, look, there's a gun there. And you can see them communicating to each other, and the butterflies are swirling off the beach. And, you know, in these moments you go, am I entering a moment that I can't, is this a one-way door? Is this not something that, is this an irreversible situation? Because it's an unfolding situation where they're coming at towards us. Are they going to attack? What do they want? Is there going to be, I mean, I'm soaked in chills right now just talking about it because I remember standing there and going, there's no way this is real life. I say it's burned into my memory them walking down the beach and seeing them with the bows. And of course, you know, Stefan is up there just firing off pictures and most of us down getting video. And the community that we're with people had, you know, you hear shotgun shells loading home and then loading it. But they're also they're getting ready. And there's this one guy, this anthropologist named Rommel, who has been the only person who has communicated with them peacefully. He did it in 2013 where he stood on the beach and he spoke to them. He knows enough of the local dialect that overlaps with theirs that he can speak to them. So as they're coming down the beach, the butterflies are flying up and we're all waiting. And again, shotgun, you're talking, you know, how many meters, 30, 40 meters, I don't know, accurate. For an arrow, you loose a seven-foot arrow that weighs nothing. You're talking about 300 meters easy. They can shoot you from across the river. So Ignacio was like pulling me and he was like down. He's like, you go down. He's like, you stay behind this tree. And he's like, you watch them from there. He's like, watch out. That guy has an arrow. He's like, he's watching everyone because you could see he's like, this is how it happens. Did you think you might, this might be the last day you have on this earth? Were you afraid? I was, yeah, yeah, of course I was afraid. It's, you're with, you're with, I'm with my two best friends and a bunch of people that I work very closely with. And you're in the middle of nowhere and there's no help coming. and you're with like, you know, 26 people and there's 50 of the tribe that you can see and you know that they're surrounding us. There's all men on the other side of the river. And then we had guns looking back towards the jungle because we knew we were being surrounded. And so, again, this is always the story of someone's uncle, brother, cousin tells a story that happened and now it's happening. And it's not happening in the shadows. It's not happening in the middle of the night. It's happening in broad daylight. They're walking out onto the beach. It's like the first time they saw the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park. You're going, uh-uh. There's no way. And you are kind of walking on the nice edge of, and it's funny you say this, the following taking pictures, because there's two ways to think of the situation. Is this fascinating or is this extremely dangerous? It's both. It is a nice edge. So you can approach it in one of the two ways. Like, if I die, I die. I'm going to take some good pictures. also were there, that was also our mission. As the directors of Jungle Keepers, we're working with this community to ensure that their lifestyle can continue and they're saying, hey, that's great but as an indigenous community, we're dealing with these people that come out and raid our stuff, try and steal our women, that kill our hunters, and now they're coming out, we want you to see it. And so documenting it is part of our job. We have to show what happened that day. And so those guys were shooting and then yes very seriously it's actually so Mohsen's wife and I we always joked about like oh if the tribe ever comes out like you stand in front of him like you take the arrow he has kids and it was you know that day it was like we were strategically positioning ourselves being like you know you down you cannot get killed and it was you start in those moments to go okay where can where will I be safe from arrows where can I run to the river if they come over. And you start planning, okay, if I jump into the river, I was going, okay, I got my bag, I have a can of tuna, I have a flashlight. And I was like, if I jump into the river and float down and I live, I'm still days upriver. And so you start going through all these things. And of course, the Macho Piero people are thinking exactly the same thing. Probably. Well, the interesting thing is that they're initiating the contact, right? They are the ones coming out of the jungle and confronting us. And fundamentally, that contact is they're at least giving peace a chance. It's just that they're trying the peaceful contact first. Correct? Or is there a violent element? Like, what did you sense in the caution of them emerging to the beach? Fear. As they came out, you could see fear on them because the way they were hunched over, the way they had their bows ready, they were worried. And so they came and, you know, Rommel is standing there closer than any of us at the edge of on one side of the river and it was like you know shirts versus skins it was two tribes looking at each other with a thousand years of civilization between them and Rommel's going put down your bows put down your bows and we can talk and he's he kept saying brothers brothers please put down your brother in a language that they might be able to understand means brother in a language that they do understand and it's And it seems like they refer to themselves as the Nomoles, the brothers. So potentially that's what they call themselves as the tribes, Nomoles. Exactly. And actually the anthropologists that we've been speaking to post this event have been explaining to us that Mashko-Piro, you know, Piro is the group that they're from, these various nomadic tribes, and Mashko basically means like wild Piros. And so the one thing we know they call themselves is Nomoles. So at the end of this, we might converge towards the name of this tribe being Nomoli versus Moshko Piro. The Nomolis, yeah. Seems like the most current or at least their self-appointed identity is the brothers, Nomoli. Anyway, there's these shredded warriors on the beach. Yeah. With seven-foot arrows. And we're all standing there. And so the first thing, again, you just think of like the peace pipe in the old stories. and the first thing is let's make them an offering of peace and so they got a canoe with no motor and we piled it with plantains like just full of plantains 16 feet of endless green bananas and then i mean the balls on this guy the anthropologist he gets into the river takes the canoe and it's the dry season so the river is only about three four feet deep at it's at the channel. And so he walks this thing out. There's one man walking in the face of all these warriors and he takes the boat and he pushes it towards them and they rush out and they start grabbing the bananas and they're not going, okay, we will unload these bananas and use them later. They're my bananas and you're grabbing your bananas and they're fighting and they're yelling and they're all grabbing and they're grabbing them. And then they push the boat back and he talks to them a little bit and again it's not a perfect translation so he's you know he's saying where have you come from what do you want that who's your leader he's trying to establish these things and they're saying things and they all sort of talk at the same time like a flock of birds they're not they don't have it wasn't like one man speaks and there was no women the women were the women were nowhere to be seen and actually at one point as we were preparing i think it was while we were preparing the second canoe of bananas there was a moment of absolute panic and and it happened when there was a noise behind us and you just hear a bunch of shotguns swing behind us and you know most one goes down I go running away from the river now because again I want to see it coming if there's an attack coming and I'm standing me and this guy we're sharing a tree as cover and he's got a shotgun and he's looking back into the forest and peering through and what was happening was the women of the tribe had come, silent foot, and they were just pulling the yucca out of the ground and taking the banana plants and ruining the farm completely. But they were raiding the farm behind us while the men were talking up here. So, again, were they peacefully contacting us or were they like, hey, we need some food, so go make a diversion and take the food out of the back? I mean, you really were surrounded. We were completely surrounded. They could have murdered all of you probably. Easily. We were outnumbered five to one at the least. Yeah, and it's probably fair to say that part of the reason they did, maybe they wanted peace, but part of the reason is they didn't know how deep this goes. They didn't know if you have backup. They don't know if we have backup. They also had questions. They were asking. Some of their questions were incredible. How do we tell the difference between, how do we know who the good guys and the bad guys are? Because to them, all you outsiders are the same. So who are the ones cutting down the trees? And those are the ones they know are the bad guys. The big trees seem to have incredible significance to them. They're significant to us in a different way, but to them it's offensive on an almost religious level to cut a big tree as if you're killing their gods. So there's a spirituality to the trees. It seems like that. And so whoever's cutting them down is a source of destruction on a spiritual, existential level. Yeah, well, why would you destroy our home? I think they're right. Yeah. In a deep sense, the young context of tribes represent the deep jungle. And so if they're threatened, that means the jungle, the deep jungle is threatened. Yeah, I mean, they are the human voice of the jungle. And they're asking questions. And they're also demanding, you know, they're clapping at us and they're waving and they're saying, send more bananas. And so they loaded up another boat and they pushed another boat out. And this time they gave them some rope. They all had rope tied around their waists, penises tied up. But they love rope. And some of them were wearing rope that they had made, which is brown or reddish. And then some of them were wearing rope that they had clearly pillaged from logging camps or the communities because it was modern nylon paracord. And they had this wound around their waists like a thick belt. and they took the second boat, and they had some rope, and they had some plantains on there. So some of these guys might have been the ones that murdered the loggers. Could be. From a couple of months before that. Absolutely, could be. But what Rommel said as he was talking to them, he turned to us, and he said, you know, this group, he said, the other groups call me the grandfather. He said, this group, he said, I don't know any of these. He said, this is first contact. He said, this is the first time this group is talking to us. and you saw people from maybe 12 years old to what looks like 40-something, like a banged-up 40, and no really old people and no women. So there's a particular clan, a particular tribe that never contacted. Is there, just from your memory, interesting aspects about the way they were trying to communicate, like you said, clapping? I think it's from an anthropology perspective, from a human perspective, fascinating. How do you talk to people from an uncontacted tribe like this? So clapping, yelling. It's interesting to know that there's not a hierarchy where there's a leader that represents. Or is that we know for sure. Before even coming to talk to you about this, we passed this through anthropologists and ethicists and people. And we said, look, is it even, can we talk about this? because if you talk about this and you tell people there's these uncontacted tribes, people have misconceptions. They go, they're the last free people on earth. They're living the real life. We need to go join them. We want to see them. We want to photograph. There's all this bad stuff that happens, and all these people want us to be left alone. So the last thing we want to do is kill the thing we're trying to protect and tell the world, but at the same time, they're speaking out. They're saying, stop cutting our trees. Leave us alone. And so if we're not successful in the greater jungle keepers' mission of protecting this river, they cease to exist. And so advocating for these people requires us to have this conversation. It requires us to have this footage and to show the world and then leave them alone. In order for any of this to make sense, I have to show you this footage. And this has not been shown ever before. This is a world first. I mean, up until now, that's the other thing. And, you know, we're sitting there this day, and, you know, the only thing you've ever seen are these blurry images of someone's cell phone from 100 meters away of the uncontacted tribes. And we're sitting there with, you know, 800 millimeters with a 2X teleconverter and, you know, R5s. And so this is, as we're looking through the farms, anticipating the tribe coming. I'll put a little bit of volume so you can hear it. And then you can see this is the moment. This is us running when they're like, they're out. They're coming down the beach. oh wow oh wow you see how many thousands of butterflies but look at the way they move look at the way they point look at him with his bow wow they're trying to figure out what they're looking at Uh-huh. And they didn't know what the cameras are there. So this was the guys looking out the back. So he's going, there's something back here. You can hear the women in the farm. And I'm looking in every direction because I'm going, which way is the arrow coming from? You see, he has this shotgun. This is just like a farm shotgun. Even if he shot it, you have to use a stick to bang out the shell. You see, as they come closer, they start laying down there. See, he's laying down his bow and arrow. They understand. No mole. So these are warriors, and the way they were at first moving, it really looked like they're ready for violence. And now they're all standing and relaxed. Yeah. Smiling? Are they smiling? Smiles come at some point. I would say that one of these guys seemed like in a leadership position. He did most of the talking. What's with the different hand gestures? The holding your hand up to the face. All of this means something. All of this means something. Some had red smeared on their faces. Some had yellow. Did you have a sense of hierarchy at all? Like the boss? Again, there was just these two dominant guys. And like this guy and one other guy who looked almost like him, like his brother. Yeah. A lot of gesture. Wow. Wow. This is incredible, Paul. You see the rope. Yeah. Some of that rope is... Yeah, I can kind of tell who the bosses are. Right? All right, so a few of the... But see, even that, as he's pointing, what are you pointing at? You guys are nuts. You guys are nuts. You see as though, they're rushing in. There's this desperation. They're hungry. is that in the water is that Rommel in the water? in this particular video it's the guy named Lina but like see these guys they're fighting over it's not that we're all going to share it later it's I get mine you get yours and so what does that what does that mean? but here they're in peaceful mode now after we'd given them after we'd given them several boatloads of bananas things did calm down Rommel said to them you know look We've given you what we can give you. We gave you sugar cane. We gave you boatloads of plantains. And so then there came a time where things were a little more relaxed. They were walking around. We were at one point we had a great moment where we'd given them the plantains. We'd given them the bananas. And he said, look, this is, that's it. He said, we've given you what you asked for. You asked for bananas. We don't cut the trees here. All of us here are not tree cutters. We're indigenous people. And he couldn't explain who the hell we were. But they were like, we don't cut the trees. We're not the loggers. And they were like, okay. So then at some point, Ignacio went out and sort of started, he'd go like this and they'd go like this. And he danced a little bit. They danced a little bit. And then there was this very human moment of just sort of joking. So even Ignacio warmed up Even Ignacio warmed up Once he realized it didn seem like anyone was going to die that day things did calm down It was a false sense of security Here, I'll show you. There's a couple more things that are relevant here, though. This is just them interacting with the boat. This is truly incredible, man. But then they don't have boats. They don't have stone tools. They don't... Imagine if you showed them ice. You know, there wouldn't... This is historic. I mean, you hear Percy Fawcett encountering the tribes. We've heard of anecdotal accounts of the tribes. This is the first time that the tribes have been filmed. We can hear their voices, that there's a documented interaction happening. I mean, this now, look how comfortable he's getting. He's so close. They asked him for his shirt. He gave his shirt. They asked him for his pants. He gave his pants. He was in his underwear. You see the shirt that's over his shoulder? Ignacio took off his Jungle Keeper shirt and threw it to the anthropologist, and then the anthropologist walked it off and threw it to them. So over the shoulder of that uncontacted naked warrior is a Jungle Keeper shirt with the logo showing. So their second shirt. He just upgraded that guy's status in the tribe. He's going to be the new boss with that shirt. He's got a dope-ass polo. he didn't even have to order it but yeah this is in like the aftermath when things were calm and then my sort of moment with this that really stuck with me was when Rommel said to me he said you know they he said they're asking about you and I said what are they asking I said you know me and he goes yeah they're asking about you and you know I'm not tall but compared to the people in the village I was a little bit taller and big shoulders and he said they said you look like a warrior He said, could you come forward? He said, show them that you don't mean any harm. He said, show them your palms. And so he pulled me up onto the beach. And this was right before they left. But see, I hold up my hands, listen. And they sang back. They're singing. They raised their hands, I raised my hands. Wow. And then we were left with watching them walk off the beach into the jungle with everything that we'd given them. And they were gone. And so we went downriver the next day and the community said to us, okay, now you understand this is real. this is terrifying you felt that fear you have a duty if you're going to protect this river to protect us from them and to help us figure out what future they want if they want to come to us if they want to learn farming if they whatever it is um you know that's that's fine but they're like we need protection from you guys and then in this video in the beginning i'm sort of narrating to the camera and walking around right as they're coming up the beach but you see this guy right there in the blue shirt that's george and he was very friendly very confident with this he said don't be scared they're not going to hurt us and the next day we went back to town you know long journey back to town and go to sleep we wake up in the morning and we find out that the following early morning our friends in the community had said okay the tribe is gone we gave them all the things they wanted we gave them sugarcane bananas we said please come back we are welcome here anytime and george was driving a boat and there was people on the boat and as they were going up river the tribe 200 of the tribe ran out surrounded the boat and they started firing arrows and everybody else could hit the deck and get under the under the benches and hide behind bags of rice George was driving and he was leaning back as he's driving. He's driving as fast as he can. And one arrow came in just above his scapula and came out by his belly button. And so he had that seven-foot arrow tip through him. And so they pulled him out. And I saw the boat afterward, and there was just, you know, horrific amounts of blood all over the boat. And he had to be medevaced out, and somehow he lived. And we were able to help getting him a helicopter, getting him evac'd, all this. But again, you just go, you know, these people came out of the jungle and they asked for bananas. We gave them bananas. And we, in every way possible, said we mean peace. We want friendship with you. And then the next day, they attacked. What do you think happened? Why do you think their mind turned? Or maybe this has to do with the role of violence in their society. Maybe it's so integrated into how they interact with the world that they don't even see that as a fundamental shift in the interaction. I don't know. I don't know what to make of it. And the only thing I can think is that the way they hid the women from us, you don't know for them maybe we're not allowed to see their women. you know or because the one thing that we got was that as George's boat and Southern boat were going upriver the which is how they live these it's not like they were doing anything wrong these people live in a community days into the Amazon they're going fishing and so they came around a bend and I think they spooked the tribe the tribe might have just acted defensively and said I don't we don't know who this is the motors could have set them off we don't know they but they they shot him and then the other thing is the the thing with the necklace. I've asked anthropologists about this and their answer was that at this point they said, you know more than we do. But that, yeah, because two of them had the exact same item around their necks and it seems to be a Brazil nut and then some sort of casing around the side and it looked like animal teeth positioned in there. It's like, what are you Are you carrying medicine? Are you carrying some sort of a totem? But both of them, and it's not a comfortable thing to wear on your neck, you know, grapefruit-sized bigger. Do you have a sense that that's a container or is it just like a totem? It seems like a container. They didn't let it get wet. They cared for it. The guy in this picture, so he's got this. This is a piece of tree fiber that he has it on, and then he's gotten his hands on Brazil nut sacks, plastic sacks from one of the farms across the river. And so they just take, they take. And one of them got a machete and he was walking as they were leaving. Again, during that period where it got friendly, he was leaving and he had the machete and he was playing with the machete and like swinging at it at butterflies. And one of my friends, this guy Baccio, he goes, oh, he goes, they helped me machete. He's like, you know, drop the machete. And the guy just looked at him and was like, yeah, come and get it. You know, I was like, yeah, you cross the river and see what happens. Do you think he figured out or they later figured out how to use a machete? Oh, they know machete. They understand machete. Yeah, yeah, they do raids for machetes. Okay. Yeah. They understand the power of a sharpened metal. I mean, it's an Excalibur sword to them, you know. But, yeah, that one has stuck with me because I go, what were they carrying in there? So what are some of the questions? Like if you can know everything you'd want to know about them. So maybe in the space of communication and language, that's really interesting. You mentioned that there's all kinds of calls, animal calls. So they obviously know how to fake animal calls. Yeah, they speak in, they can use animal calls with enough complexity that they can do basic commands. So they can speak in Capuchin, they use Tindamu calls. Some of our rangers were upriver a few months ago. This is long after this, this is recently. Just recently they were upriver and they found a trail, let's say a Nomole Trail, a Mashupiro Trail. And it was Ignacio, of course. and he made the, there's like a secret whistle they do, the smell. And he whistled out into the jungle and he was listening and they whistled back. And so him and everybody on the team just ran back to the boat and got, got out of there. But it was like, at least they answered. They didn't just shoot. They, he whistled, they whistled and they said out and he got out. But it's like, we don't know where are the old people? Do they not survive? What is the, what are the, the marriage rituals? How is reproduction handled? Um, there, there's one or two children in the Amazon that I know of who have, you know, washed down river on a log and been rescued by communities and then raised and they either learn the native dialect or Spanish. And then of course, at some point, somebody will go and say, what was it like when you lived with them? And the answer is always the same. I forget. They don't talk about it. so maybe we know that they value secrecy. I mean, when you're afraid of the outside world, you don't. Part of that is confidentiality. They all sign NDAs. There's some really good NDAs. It's understood. It's an NDA you can't. There's no lawyers. There's only one way to execute the law. It's either a really strong NDA or that it is savage, that they're living out there in the jungle and that you're eating monkeys and turtles and you're hungry for days on end. And, you know, your wife might get stolen by another tribe. Your baby might get stolen. You know, I mean, imagine the bot flies and the things that they must put up with. It's just, I mean, what we experienced in, what, three days of living out with modern camping gear and headlamps and a sense of direction, and they're doing none of that. You put us out there naked. a very different story. Yeah, the brutality of nature, Werner, Herzog comes to mind, that, they have to live in that. But there must be, there's something about the jungle that serves as a catalyst for spirituality, so they must also have a religious component, a spiritual component that probably unifies them. There must be an ideology they operate under. There must be, and there's many things they must have. They must have a belief system. They probably have amazing origin stories. It would be amazing to know what things they have accurately and inaccurately guessed about us, about the outside world. I mean, they've never heard of the country they live in or World War II or any of it. And so seeing them come across the beach was surreal because it's like this aperture into history. By the way, I mean, you do have a certain look. So you realize, like, when I'm singing to you, your face is carved in some wood somewhere. And there's a few of them gathering around and, like, still singing about the great gringo with a big nose. They probably drew this, like, he's got hair all over his face and a huge nose. And they tell their children. And it could be anything. You could be, like, to the children that say this is the monster you should be afraid of. or this could be the most beautiful encapsulation of the outside world. It could be everything in between. You don't get to control the myths. You don't get to control the myths. Yeah, God only knows. But, I mean, it's so interesting. So now in that 130,000 acres that we have, we know, and this is what we're sort of have to come out of the closet with this. Like, we are now protecting these people, and the only way to do that is to make sure that they're not contacted. let alone that they don't get machine guns shot at them by the narcos or that crazy, you know, hippie gringos don't go down there thinking they're going to, you know, join the coolest commune on earth. So how much of the land that they move about is within the 130,000 acres of rainforest you've been able to save and how much of it is not? How much of it is in the extra 200,000 acres that you're trying to save? Most of the rest, most of that 200,000 that we're still trying to protect is territory that is theirs. And in order, people always ask me, first, a lot of people ask, how could you buy the Amazon? They're like, that doesn't make sense. And it's like, well, I have bad news for you. Somebody already owns it, and we have to buy it from them so that they don't log it. And so these landowners are going to sell their forest to the logging companies because owning 10,000 acres of the Amazon doesn't help you if you're a third-generation jungle man. And now it's just something that's up there and you live in the city. And so they're going to contract either the narcos or the loggers or the miners to go out there and use it, and they'll get a little money. And those people, when they see these people, will kill them. That's for sure. And shotguns and machine guns in the end will win, not to mention the germs. so all the money you're trying to raise and all the land that you're trying to save it's all towards that protecting the deep jungle so when you buy up the jungle you just want to let it be let the natural ecosystem come back to life in the case of when it was logged or just flourish if it hasn't again we're talking about the last great jungle I always called it the last endless forest because this place is so incredibly remote. And then the other question I always get is people say, well, why is this river so important? And for my whole career, my whole time, 20 years in the Amazon, it's been that it's massively intact forest, places like the ancient forest where the trees have never been cut. So it's forest that's been growing since the dawn of time. And thousands of species can be on a single shiwawako tree. And it's avatar on earth. You can see the sweat come off your skin and rain down and then drink it out of the river and you're part of the chemical physical reality there and so it's one of the last places that's untouched this changed everything because we realized that along with the butterflies and the monkeys and the jaguars and the trees and the ecosystem there's also a human culture that will in the next few years cease to exist that will be exterminated if we don't protect them. And when you look back at what happened to indigenous cultures all over the world over the past few centuries that they've been wiped out, we collectively now, because we know this, have a chance to undo all of the injustices that happened in the past by at least doing one right, by saying these people want one thing, to just be left alone. Imagine if we just protected the river. And then it's not that they're this thing that's vanishing from reality, but they get to continue living that way. And then if they want to come out and contact us, great. And if they want to continue living like this for the next 10,000 years, they can. And that's what we're working with now. It's become so much more important than just, you know, we're trying to protect the environment. It's like, No, we're trying to protect things like Yellowstone and Yosemite and the sequoias that occur nowhere else on Earth. You protect the things that are unique and special, the crown jewels. In both a biological way as well as an anthropocentric way, this has now become a river with global historic significance because this story is going to play out in the next 18 months. you're further and further and further trying to save more and more rainforests. And the mission is clear because there's just this deep jungle that's full of this incredible life and now we know with uncontacted tribes there's a lot of interests that don't care about the jungle they're pushing and want to cut it down, want to destroy it. And the mission is pretty clear. You just want this whole territory to be preserved. Yeah, and that's what makes it so beautiful is that this is one of those crown jewels. This is one of those special places on Earth where it's like a time capsule for nature, for human culture, for biodiversity, for climate services, for everything. And then, you know, I think people get overwhelmed with where you say, okay, we have to save the environment. We have to save the ocean. This is one watershed. dead. It's 300,000 acres and we're already at 130,000. We've shown we can do it. The loggers are happy to turn into rangers. People all over the world have become Jungle Keeper supporters. We have several thousand people that every month give us between five and a thousand dollars every single month. And that keeps the rangers going, that employs the local people. So it's not just making a, you know, drawing a line and making a park and saying everybody stay out. It's like, No, you have the nomoles, you have the indigenous people, you have a future for the indigenous people where their kids don't have to worry about eating monkeys. They can be park rangers. And I get blowback from people right away where I say, and people can even come see it through the treehouse. And people go, oh, are you going to bring tourists into the wildest place on earth? And it's like, man, look at that jungle. And it's like that 300,000 acres of that. And you're talking about on a football field, we're talking about two blades of grass that we access so people can see it. which makes a huge difference. And so the fact that we can share it with people, the amount of people that listens to, look, since the first time I came here and spoke to you, the amount to which you've made it possible for us to protect this place, the amount of spider monkeys and jaguars and giant anteaters and those ancient millennium trees that you've made it possible to protect is monstrous. Thank you, brother. It has been an honor of a lifetime to be able to watch you. I tell to a lot of people, there's certain people I'm glad exist in this world because you've educated me and millions of people about the beauty of the jungle and how important the fight to save the jungle is. So if you're listening to this, you absolutely must go. Please donate or post about it. Share it with friends. junglekeepers.org. You're also doing a gala in New York at the end of January. So if you can, please go and donate to help save the jungle. Yes, please do. And because our first conversation led to the first surge where people realized what Jungle Keepers was, and then because we got this surge of support, then we were able to expand our work, protect more acres. A lot of our major donors, A lot of our small-scale donors came in because of that. So these are people that went, wait, if Lex thinks it's a good idea, then we'll do it. Based on your trust, they came in. I guess also I should say it's not enough to speak and communicate the importance of saving the rainforest. You actually have to have incredible people that are making it happen. We have talked and we'll talk more about the dangers and the complexities involved of how to navigate everything. and one of the things and the reason I'm really excited about what you're doing is I just got to meet the team and this brings a smile to my face and several of the people I know who are extremely competent Stefan, somebody we've talked about yes, he likes to take pictures of stuff but primarily the thing he does incredibly well is run everything organize everything to make sure that stuff happens and happens quickly and efficiently, all the kind of things that are required to make stuff like this happen in the complex environment that the jungle operates in, the sometimes lawless environment that the jungle operates in. So the team is incredible, which is why when you sort of connect the money, how does the money lead to the solution to the problem? it's the team and the team makes it happen. I didn't know that people like Stefan existed. Yeah, me neither. You know, because when I met him, I just like a beautiful, wonderful human being. I just, you know, again, I can use a machete to catch a fish. But like his systems knowledge and his ability, I mean, his bandwidth is the size of a country. It has its own area code. He's, you know, just like JJ opened the door of the Amazon and gave us that local indigenous perspective. I mean, yeah, okay, I told some stories about it, but like Stefan came in and went, okay, you guys have good ideas, but you're both jungle guys and you're not helping each other. And running those systems and making the website and making it possible to connect the people that care with the indigenous ranger program and make sure the rangers have shirts and cans of tuna and that there's a person running the ranger. And these are things that I couldn't dream of organizing. I can't even organize my, I can't even make my bed. I can't even get that far I mean Caveman want fish Watching you hunt for fish With a machete Is one of the most awesome things I've ever seen You're literally able to catch a fish with a machete So that's what you're good at And Stefan's good at everything else Remember the most interesting man in the world And they're like He once had an awkward moment just to see how it felt And it's like Stefan's to-do list doesn't exist because it's already done. You know, he's just incredible. Quick pause, bath and break. Oh, 100%. I'm so happy about that. Yes, sir. And we're back. One thing I forgot to ask you is about the diet of the uncontacted tribes. You mentioned potentially monkeys and turtle eggs. Yeah. So, like, what do we know about what they eat? What's the source of protein? Do they eat monkeys? Oh, yeah. Their primary sources of food, I would say, would be monkeys, turtles, turtle eggs, and small game like paca, the large rodent that's like the size of a beagle, capybara, stuff they can shoot. They don't really fish, and we know these things because our indigenous trackers and our rangers find their camps, and so they'll find some of those little thatch structures they make on the beaches, and we see the bones. There'll be taper bones. There'll be turtle shells, which seems like is their closest thing to a bull. The day that we interacted with them, they did find a bull. We saw them walking away with it in one of the farms, and then days later we found it destroyed. So it didn't seem like they saw much utility in the bull. It's temporary. It's temporary. So they kill it. They make a fire. They must be amazing at making fire. I don't know how they do it out there. It's very difficult because everything is wet. I don't know how they do it. And I'm a really good fire starter. And it's tough in the jungle. It is almost impossible most of the year because everything is wet to its core. So you think they cook the meat. I mean, they have to be cooking their meat from a parasite standpoint. We know that they're cooking their meat. We see it, that they've cooked it. You know, there's not a lot of excess berries, things like berries and nuts and fruits The monkeys and the birds and the bats are getting to those first. As soon as, I mean, that's what fruit does, right? A tomato is green until its seeds are mature, and then it turns red to advertise, eat me, so that you eat it, and then your gut transports that to somewhere else, and it gets free transportation. In the jungle, that happens so quick that we're never getting produce. In the book, you have a picture of a native girl on the Lesbias having monkey for lunch. Yes. it looks really strange when you have a monkey. It kind of looks a little bit like cannibalism because it looks like a small human. I don't know what it is about, well, I guess I do, about monkeys. There's a human element to them in their eyes, in the form factor, but even in the warmth they bring to the interaction. Yeah, I was babysitting her, and she was six at the time, Daira, and her parents went out and we were left at camp and they just said, you know, keep an eye on her, make sure nothing eats her. And I said, sure. And she was like, hey, I want lunch. And I said, great, well, what is there? And she pulls out this monkey head and she was like, it's ready. And she starts pulling at the ear and she's like, I can't get the ear. She's like, can you help me? So I pulled off the ear with my teeth and I gave it to her. And then we just shared this monkey head back and forth. And we're sitting there and I took a few pictures of her. she's eating and I have this video where I go what's your favorite food and she's like monkey and I said not cake and she was like monkey and she was like pulling his lips off and like you said you see the teeth and the eyes and it's like sort of grilled in static agony and it looks like a tortured human and she was just enjoying it. Let me look it up on perplexity. How many people in the world eat monkey? Does it taste good? If it was prepared right, it would taste good, but they just throw it over the fire and then eat it. And so, I mean, even if you took a perfectly good chicken and did that, it wouldn't taste great. There's no reliable global count of how many people eat monkey meat, but available data suggests many millions of people regularly or occasionally consume primate bush meat, especially in parts of Africa and America and Asia. I mean, she looks like that is her favorite meal is monkey. Yeah, we had a great time. Who are we to judge? Who are we to judge? I mean, have a tuna sandwich or a monkey face or whatever. She's loving it. That's awesome. She's adorable. Yeah. Now that some time has passed, when you look back at that encounter, which I really do think is historic with the Uncontacted Tribe, what do you think about? What lingers with you? Honestly, I'm still processing it. I'll still find myself just staring off, sort of remembering it or looking at the footage. But it felt like the voice of the jungle was speaking. You know, these people are, there's that separation between humans and nature where we go, we have to protect nature. You know, it's like the fish that, you know, explaining what water is to a fish. We're part of it. We depend on it. And these are people that depend on it 100%. And as we sit here surrounded by technology and concrete and civilization, they're still out there right now. And the fact that we've been trying to protect their home without even really knowing that they were in it because they're so elusive, it gives you perspective on where we came from and how far we've come. You know, I look at simple things. You know, you board an airplane or you take a picture and you go, this is a miracle. And I think having that perspective of having interacted with them where you go, you know, how much work does it take to make this? If me and you were standing in the jungle and somebody said, you have to make this, how many years before we came up with this? How many rubber trees and where would we get the metal and what would we use as dye and how do we make the spring mechanism and figure out how to make it rotate? I don't know. And it's like they are working with the bare essentials. And so it's an interesting reference point to start at in terms of how incredibly privileged we are. You know, the other thing is we have written, we have so many different types of text and we have code and we have language and we have music. and we can communicate in all these different ways, and they have spoken word. They have oral tradition, and that's it. And so they're operating the way our great, great, great, great, great time, you know, to the power of what operated and persisting in modern times. And so I think for me, I come back to the world, and I think it moves very fast when I see it because I'm still stuck on whether or not me and you can drink out of that puddle. Yeah. You know, and the big questions of life. The big questions of life. Yeah, I mean, you're right. You're right from the perspective of the uncontacted tribe. I think going from the technological world to the jungle, you realize the majesty, the magic of the biological system that is the jungle, that is nature. but from their perspective also there is the majesty and magic to the technological world the human created technological world of the pen and the computer and the light bulb that too is magical so sometimes we don't give enough credit to both the magic of the technological world, all the incredible things humans have been able to build and the magic of the natural world. I mean, what we've been able to achieve, I think you and I and people that spend large amounts of time in the wilderness, especially somewhere as remote and fundamental as the Western Amazon, have a different perspective on it because I think that when you're born in it, you don't necessarily have the framework to appreciate how far we've come. You go, yeah, I got on the train today. I checked my phone, I FaceTimed my mom, and you're like, this is all normal. It's like we found a way to take things out of the ground and mix them together into magic devices that can do anything. It's mind-blowing. There's a deep optimism to that, and you actually write in a book, which I really like, I think somewhere in the beginning, quote, given all the death and destruction I've witnessed, it would be easy to slip into the popular anti-human narrative that we are a plague on the planet and there's nothing that can be done. But my career in conservation has given me a glimpse into an alternate narrative. I've met people who are proving more and more that something can be done. I'm talking about real heroes. People who have dedicated their lives to redeeming the evil that is capable of being waged by the human soul. People who are guarding the flame amidst the storm, proving every day what so many have forgotten. There is still hope. And that speaks against sort of the cynicism and maybe apathy and the view that humans are a destructive force in the world. That speaks to the fact that humans, with all the technological elements that we have created, can actually do a lot of good. I wrote in my notes here a quote from the great Jane Goodall, The greatest danger to our future is apathy. So caring about the world, having an optimism for the world, having a hope for the world is the way to help have an impact, help save it. But on that, I have to ask you about Jane. She passed away on October 1st. some humans in this human civilization of ours can open our eyes to the beauty of the world, and she is one of the best of them. And she's had an impact on your life. Maybe can you speak to the impact that she's had? I mean, when I grew up, you know, my parents, being dyslexic, I couldn't read for a very long time. And so my parents read to us every night, which was amazing considering how hard they were working. But they'd find the time to give us, you know, an hour of reading every night, whether it was Lord of the Rings or Sherlock Holmes or Jane Goodall. And so I grew up with Jane being this figurehead of conservation and of adventure and sort of a living historical figure, this legendary person. And so then one time, right around the time that I've been going to the jungle for a few years, I got to go see Jane speak. I think it was at NYU. And, you know, sitting in the crowd, watched her completely amazed. And I had at the time, my cousins had been telling me that I should write down my stories of stories of taking care of an anteater and stories of catching anacondas. And they're like, right, you know, these are such good stories. And so I've been writing them down. And I just remember after the talk, you know, she did it at least an hour on stage. And then thousands of people lined up, at least hundreds of people lined up. And she sat there and each of those people wants a moment with this legend. And so she used to take a picture, shake their hand. They say, you mean so much to me. She says, thank you. And then they move on and they say, we'll send you the picture. Okay, great. And so I got my moment and we waited in line for a long time. and I gave her this manila envelope with two chapters in it. And one chapter was Lulu the Giant Anteater from Mother of God and the other chapter was me, JJ and Pico out on the river catching anacondas and just talking about how amazing the jungle was. And I said I'd love it if you could endorse my book that doesn't exist yet. And I felt like such a loser doing that. And I felt so stupid because I feel like everyone was probably asking something of her and I you know, it's incredibly draining to talk to that many people even if it is for a good reason. And And 48 hours later, she got back and she said, you know, this is incredible. I would love to write a recommendation for your book as soon as you find a publisher. And what happened with that is that Jane, the way I think of it is, you know, she waved her very powerful magical wand in my direction. And she had the incredible compassion and presence to actually, I mean, you know, after talking to that many people and being on the road 300 days a year and being Jane Goodall, this living legend scientist, to actually do something so mundane as look at some kid's writing. And, of course, when I went to publishers, they said, who? Who said that they would endorse your book? Because everyone had said no. Every publisher in New York had already said no. And then after that, HarperCollins took me on. And they said, well, if Jane Goodall thinks it's a good idea, then we think it's a good idea. and it became Mother of God. And then because of that, you know, Jungle Keepers, Dax, everything else was stemmed from that. So had Jane not been the legend that she is truly in every moment, my whole career would never have happened, which also means that those thousands of heartbeats and thousands of acres in the Amazon wouldn't be protected because we never would have started Jungle Keepers. And she did that not because you're special. She did that to everybody. Yeah. And just imagine the scale, the impact she's had because of that. And guess what? You have a bit of that responsibility now as well. There's young people that walk up to you that way, and you have that responsibility of seeing them, of giving them a chance, seeing the potential in every single human being that walks up to you. It definitely is. I would say that Jane's, we could do four hours on just Jane, what she did for humanity, what she did for science, what she did for women, what she did for wildlife, the amount of other people that she inspired and gave careers to, everything she did for me. But to me, that presence of mind when you reach that level to not be worried about your own travel and your own schedule and busy with getting some rest, and she actually looked at it, has informed how I operate. And indeed, like you say, at this point, as strange as it is, people will stop me on the street and say, hey, I watch your videos every night with my kids. Or someone will say, how do I get your job? I've been watching you for years, and I'd love to help conservation. And so it's made it so that I follow her example where it's like you stop what you're doing and you pay attention because you don't know that might be the next kid that's out there saving a river or the next person that makes an innovation that makes it possible to clean rivers or whatever it is, whatever their dream is. But Jane was in the hope business. She always said it, that not losing hope was key to staying in the fight and that we live at a time when that apathy is a poison peddled by the darkness. It's they're trying to make you feel disoriented and apathetic and scared and and fighting back against that and having conviction and passion and fire and hope. Are the only way that we're going to fight that. And she understood that she spent her whole life spreading it, guarding the flame against the storm and and tipping her candle to others to light them. And she just that was her whole thing. What advice would you give to young people how to do that? those young Pauls sitting there I mean your life story is just incredible in that way you've taken a leap into adventure into the unknown what would you recommend they do I think the thing that that I try to communicate to them and again my inboxes are filled with people you know I'm from Finland I'm from Spain I'm from you know Georgia people saying how do I get your job? How do I get out there and do it? And it's, it really is just that it's that you throw yourself headfirst into adventure and it's, you just do it. And, and, and I remember hearing people say that thing, like, you know, if I can do it, you can do it. And it's like, I remember thinking how hollow that sounds. Cause I'm like, yeah, you're on a talk show or you just wrote a book and you're going, you know, these, these, these titans of, of their industries and, and, and innovators saying like, you know, if I could do it, anybody could do it. But now that we're protecting all this rainforest and that I've, you know, lived with the animals and met the tribes and that it's becoming this global movement, you know, I didn't have a PhD. You know, there's that quote that someone less qualified than you is living your dream life and has your dream job right now. And I am the poster child for that because I went there with, you know, I failed out of high school and started taking unmatriculated college classes and going to the jungle with my friend JJ and just doing it for the sheer love of it for years, almost a decade before anything, um, surfaced. And the other thing is there was, there's not even a path. There was, there was no path ahead of us. There was no, you know, okay, you go to school, you get trained in this and you're going to become a this. I went there and it was like, you're never going to be a conservation biologist because you don't have the grades. You're not, you don't have a PhD. You don't have family money. You're not going to, you're not going to be able to protect rainforest. I said, all right, well then selfishly, I just want to see it. Then I ended up getting trained by the indigenous people. What happens so many times, and you could use, I think a restaurant example is the best one you could use, where you might start washing dishes, but at least you're in the restaurant. Then at some point, the manager is going to need you to help with restocking. At some point after a few years, you're going to be helping the new guy. At some point after a few years, you might end up being the manager. At some point, you might end up being in the position where you're starting your own restaurant. That's the only way to do that. You can't just search it on a computer. You have to go sweat and bleed and do it. And that said, especially if you fall in love with the journey that you take on, it's full of difficult periods. I think you said somewhere this just seems to be the nature of it, that there's going to be pain, there's going to be suffering along the way. You have a really nice post that I recommend people watch. about just this, when people ask for advice, that the hardship, the suffering, and I've seen how much you care. When I've seen you just in your face, when you see a tree being cut down or you see the fires, there's real pain there in your heart, and you have to carry that. And so the post is, how honest can I be? What do I tell these kids who message me asking how they can do what I do? It's not David versus Goliath. There's no sword or sling that can hold back a dragon this big. You're going against the current of global economic entropy and human apathy. Swimming against the current is tiring. A great way to drown. Every day we don't win, we lose. And when we do, worlds burn. The more you know, the more it bleeds. The heartbeats all stop when the flames come through. Constellations of species turn to ghosts. And we're the only ones saving them. Cupped our hands around a candle in the howling darkness. And people want to be inspired. Keep that social media going. Keep it up. You're doing great. They want to know we're winning. And we've done a lot of winning. But not right now. We're getting slaughtered. we're at that part of the story we're almost at the end game we can think positively as positively as we want thoughts and prayers won't stop a chainsaw and the motor that's carrying us against the current towards the miraculous goal only when there's gasoline in it as soon as that stops we drown we drown we can take the warm light from all of those who help and not let it bother us that there are people who could buy planets claim to care. At some point, you realize what's really happening. As a kid, you'd rather be Aragorn. You don't want to actually carry the ring. Not when you learn what it's going to cost, even if you make it. How can you? Explain to Sam why you can't get on the boats. Whatever it takes, whatever it takes. It's that time of year again. Here come the flames. Whatever it takes, it's coming. And people should watch the video that goes along with this. But that speaks to the pain, the difficulty, the challenge, the suffering involved when you're faced with a possibility of destruction. And that's the other side of the sword of caring for something deeply. Yeah, we've watched a lot of forest burn. We've pulled a lot of animals out of the flames. Yeah, I wrote that at a time where we were just getting hammered, man. and funding wasn't coming in. There was miners. It was just months and months out in the jungle alone. And, yeah, it's a Tom York track that we've just been listening to again and again, and it was just so low. There was then, you know, there was a huge new invasion where they just burned the whole side of the river and just, you know, it's never going to come back. And it's part of the forest that I loved, and I knew the animals there, and it's gone. And so we have to live through that on a weekly basis, at least a day-to-day basis. And when you take on responsibility for something like this, you go to sleep thinking, yeah, if we don't do it, then worlds burn. If we don't save it, then every time you said the sadness that surrounds a happy moment, well, it's like, how am I supposed to go to a party and talk with people about anything or how am I supposed to even go to sleep when if we don't succeed at what we're trying to do, if we don't outrace the chainsaws and the roads, then those trees die, those millennium trees, and we're the only ones out there protecting them. And when you see that black scorched earth with nothing left, it's just ashes on the ground, and all the cacophony of life is silenced, and it's just this horrible, violent silence. It makes you sick. And so, yeah, there's a lot of weight that comes with that where we're not theoretically doing something. We're black and white practically doing it. So that's the other side of the advice to young people. Oh, yeah. Well, it's not going to be easy. No. I mean, when they say, how do I get your job? It's like, well, you don't want my job. You don't want the bot flies and you don't want the dengue and you don't want, you know, don't even inquire what a normal life looks like. Like, you know, I lived out of a backpack for 20 years. You know how many monkey faces I had to eat because there was no other food. Like, seriously, you know, just that shot, just being alone on the boat in the river and how many days the motor didn't work. And you sleep out there and you get rained on because you don't have any protection. You have some leaves over your face. And then you go home and everyone's got a job and everyone's got kids and everyone's happy. And they're like, what are you doing down there trying to save the rainforest? I'm like, sure. And now we're at this point where, you know, I cared a whole lot for a whole long time. We've had rises and then we've had falls and we've had wins and then we've had failures. And the last few years we've had this rolling success of people finding out about our work and coming in. and we start to go, wow, we've protected 130,000 acres, we might actually be able to do this. And so, you know, there's that moment in 300 where they show Leonidas and they say, even the king allows himself a moment of hope that this might be okay right before they get slaughtered. And someone very dear to me recently said, you know, in celebration of where we've gotten to, that if it happened in any harder of a way, it would have actually killed you. And if it had happened in an easier way, it wouldn't have been so divine. and that slapped me in the face because it was like, man, it has been so hard. But look where we are. We might actually do this. It just has to be that way. Speaking of which, another complexity in all of this, you write about in the afterword of the book, about the narcotraffickers that have moved into the river basin. They're not the loggers that we've spoken about anymore. They're growing cocoa for cocaine, and they're building airstrips. So tell me how this came to be. Like you said, the loggers, our whole life on this river, when loggers come in, JJ and I would walk up to them and say, hey, what's up, and sit down with them and have a beer or share a meal and talk to them and ask who their father was and if we know them and then hire them. And they're friendly. And they are, in a way, brothers, the JJ. They're the same. They come from the same people. They're simple local people. They're not evil. They're just people who usually have a kid and a wife, and they're looking for work. And so they work with a chainsaw because that's what they know. and they work for you know $30 a day if that in very challenging harsh environments and so when we see clearings I would always go with the drone and fly it over clearings we get some intel and then we go bring that to the police and the police you know Jungle Keepers supports the police at this point because the Peruvian government has a hard time with resources trying to manage Amazonia And there you know when you three days from civilization getting cops out there is not the easiest thing. So sometimes we'll lend boats or gasoline or logistical support. And there was a moment in March, several hours upriver from, you know, home base. And I'm with JJ on the boat and I fly the drone and there's this big new clearing. and I flew the drone over and we lowered the drone. And a few times I've had people come out and wave at the drone or say, like, get away. And we're out in the middle of the river, just sort of idling, staying in one place. And I lower the drone and I see these little huts. And we're saying, okay, this is a big clearing. I'm snapping images, snapping images. These people are on the boat with us, these visitors who had flown in. And I have my local team. And all of a sudden people come running out of the houses. And they run straight to their boats. and we're already above where their boat is, so home is in downriver direction, they get in their boats and start chasing us. And we start driving. And we're going at full speed. We have a 60 horsepower. They had a 40. And we're driving up these. We're just doing this chase now. And our guests, who are going to be potential funders, at one point the father looked at me and he goes, hey, this whole running from the Pirates of the Caribbean thing, he's like, it's getting scary. You're scaring us. He was like, can we, can we, like, what are we doing? He goes, when are you going to put the drone down? And I'm flying the drone at full speed to keep up with the boat. And I just crash landed the drone on the side of the river near a big tree. I just said, fuck it, we'll get it later. And I was like, this is fine. This happens all the time. They get mad. They chase us. It's no big deal. And I smiled at him. And JJ's smiling. He goes, it's so bad. And he's smiling. And JJ looked at me and the smile fell off him like a mask. And he looked at me and he was like, this is not good. and we kept going up river and luckily there was a camp of of police that we've worked with quite a bit and i went to a friend of mine and i remember we got off the boat i shook his hand he said what's going on i said look down river and there's a boat tearing up river towards us and he did three things he got the rest of the guys they armed up they got on the boat with guns they put ski masks on. They got ready for combat. They told us to get down. He also said, hey, turn on the sat link, call for support back home. We turned our boat around. And as soon as the narcos, which we didn't even realize that these were narcos chasing us, we thought that we were looking at loggers. When they saw the guns and they saw us face them, they turned their boat around and they went back downriver. So we got escorted downriver. And I remember shaking his hand, my friend, and saying, thank you for saving us today, and telling the other guys they did a good job. I said, get back upriver. We'd been brought home safe. This is hours later. I said, good job. Thank you so much. And they went back upriver, and then that night, I'm sitting at the station that you know, and I get a phone call from Stefan, and he goes, pick up the phone. And I go, I'm camp. In the middle of a conversation, he goes, pick up the phone. and my friend who I had just shook his hand a few hours ago they went back up river and as they were unloading their boat and washing off in the stream the narcos did a drive-by and shotgun straight to the chest shot him in the chest and so all of that enthusiasm and we're protecting the biodiversity and this is so great there's people from around the world it's like that scene in the movie where there's just a montage of success and hope and acres and winning gunshot. And I could still feel his hand in my hand. I just shook his hand. I said, no, you can't. You're not. He's, I said, well, is he okay? He said, is he okay? He said, he took a shotgun straight to the chest. And they're like, he's dead. I said, okay. And so I had to go out to dinner and not show the guests anything and just smile and laugh and talk to them about, you know, whatever. and keep that in, which felt very, very difficult to do. And so what happened, as you said, the threat level escalated and we didn't know it. The narcos had come in and started realizing that there's so much wilderness here that they can operate and there's no police. And then when we flew the drone, they got mad. So we realized this. We communicated with the police and they said, oh, yeah, these are narcos. Now we realize this is part of the serious, like, drug mafia. And then I had gone back with the incident that you're referring to at the end of the book. I had gone back to New York, again, to speak to donors to try and get this work to continue. And you know how it works. We're at the station, and then you go to that little logging town, and then there's a road. And so our pickup truck had come in on the road, and JJ was supposed to come down, get in the truck, and drive back to the city. JJ was on the river and went, I forgot I was supposed to get more stuff at the city. He goes, you know what, I'll go tomorrow. He went back up, and he sent the boat driver down and told our driver, Percy, who was waiting with the pickup truck, he said, JJ's not coming today. Go back and come back tomorrow. Percy starts driving down the road, and he sees a tree across the road. This is a single-lane road through the jungle. There's nowhere else you can go. And men with guns come and stick the pistols in through the open windows. Gun against his head, they pull him out, and they go, where's JJ and the mierda gringo boladron? They said, where's that shithead gringo that flew the drone? And if either of us had been in the car that day, they would have killed us. And we know that because they took his wallet, they took his phone, our driver, Percy. They thank God they didn't hurt him. But they sent a message to us. They said, let him know. They said, we missed you this time, but we'll get you next time. They said, we're going to get you. And so when JJ called me, he called me and he was howling. He just had the, you know, that adrenaline and that emotion of that it almost happened. And so that changed everything. And so since then we've been, you know, it's not counting butterflies and taking ecological surveys. It's that there's a drug war being fought on our river. And now when these roads come in, we can't just go out and meet these people anymore and go talk to them because they are actively looking to shoot us. They know our names. And then as if all these other things weren't enough indication, the police intercepted a phone from someone they arrested. And on the phone, in the WhatsApp chat, it said, if you see JJ or the gringo, anyone in our network, please kill them. You'll be rewarded. So we both have a hit out on us. And life on the river has changed at the moment. We don't. We can't, you know, I can't just go out walking around and swimming and driving my boat, and it's like you have to be looking over your shoulder at all times. And, you know, you can get as trained as you want with a pistol and sleep with it under your pillow. But the way these people work, they'll catch you when you're least expecting it. They'll wait until you're at a cafe in town. They'll wait until your motor doesn't work on the side of the river. It'll just be a quick one, and they'll go. And so that feeling on top of the weight of protecting the ecosystem and the animals and the race to tell people about it and do all this. It's like now we're actively being hunted when we're there. And this is very directed at you and JJ. So they really don't care about the others. They understand. Are you afraid? What's it been like living with a real fear of... being murdered at any moment. I wish I could say I handled it better than I've been handling it. Like, I wonder how people in war zones do it. I wonder how some of my soldier friends that I have immense respect for have did it when they were deployed. Because for me, once this happened, it was, you know, every phone call now I think did something happen to JJ. You know, every time I go to sleep, my dreams are that I'm being shot. and it, I just, it just, it just, it really threw me. It really, really affected me. When JJ called me the, the, the way he was just, he was just shouting. I don't even remember what he was saying. He was just, he was just shouting. They almost got us. They almost got us. He was so, you know, terrified and angry. And, and, and so, yes, it's, I, there was a day not that long ago that I was swimming in the river and I was just in the river, you know, right in front of the stairs at the station and a boat came around the bend. And I remember thinking, do I run? Do I go underwater? Do I hide? Do I, what the hell do I do? I didn't have a gun near me. I didn't have the security people were up the stairs. It's like you go, holy shit. And it's not the danger of, you know, if I jump on an anaconda, it might kill me. Or if I climb this, I might fall. These are people who want to kill you. And on top of it, you have the, you know the when you see your when you see what your friend looks like after three days of floating in a river what a body looks like of a person you used to know that's very viscerally terrifying because there's the the tragedy of that that person lost his life who was younger than i was you know he's like he was a kid he was in his 20s um and then yeah it's just it's very hard, it's very hard to do anything because you're, you're, I mean, like right now my hands are sweating. It just, it affects me. And even in the daylight, if I can go, you know, it's fine. This is part of the thing, you know, so this is the adventure. People deal with this all over the world. You can talk yourself tough. And then, and then in those quiet moments, you know, that, that 4am thing, you wake up and you go, fuck, you know, why am I sweating? Why, why did I just have those dreams? Why is my heart racing? It's like, you just have, um, it sinks its way into your subconscious and, and it's just not what we signed up for. You know, it's like we, we, we wanted to just protect this beautiful place. And this is this whole new threat. We're not trained for this. We're not, we're not a, uh, you know, we're not police or military. And it's, and it's like, we've, we've now seen violence on a scale that we were very unprepared for. And so, I mean, just two days ago, I was on my way to you and my phone rang at nine o'clock at night and it was jj and it was like i had a my heart was jackhammering i had to pull over because i was going what what news now you know did we lose another bunch of acres is it a new road did somebody die what it just you know it really scatters you and in some sense it's a twist that you didn't ask for and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the fight you're fighting which is protecting the rainforest but because of it being pristine and quiet and away from civilization, it also becomes a place where you can have airships. It becomes lawless in a certain way because it's so far away from civilization. Yeah. It's the only place that they can operate with impunity. There's no police out there. And so they saw us helping the police, and they went, cut the head off the snake. Yeah. And that, you know, Chico Mendez, Dorothy Stang, the list of people that environmental defenders that are assassinated in the Amazon every year is huge. There's endless examples of it. It's staggering. I forget the exact numbers, but it's like every year we lose. There'll be local leaders who are trying to stop an oil company or a drug cartel, and they just shoot them. Because they know that that one person that's able to rally that support, who has that voice, if you just shoot them, usually it'll end the thing. And then they can go back to doing whatever the hell they want. And so right now we're working very closely with the Peruvian government. And people assume that, you know, a Latin American government is automatically corrupt. But what we found is that these are really good people that want to help their citizens. And the police have been working very hard to stop the narcos, to protect the local indigenous people. Because, you know, with the narcos comes human trafficking. With a team of male narcos that are out in the woods making drugs, they want prostitutes. And how do they get prostitutes? They go steal girls from indigenous communities that don't know any better. And then there's reports that the Narcos have made contact with the uncontacted tribes, and of course they're going to shoot machine guns at them. They're not going to have a little shotgun where it's a fair fight. They're going to mow them down. And the uncontacted tribes are going to have no idea. That's why I posted a video of me in the rain saying this is Endgame, because there was a new road that was coming off the north of our territory above the ancient forest. They had jumped over because we stopped it at the ancient forest. They've gone above the ancient forest. Now they're trying to cut down to a new area. And so it looks like this. Like that. Yeah. So there's the Trans-Amazon. Stefan made this map, of course. But you see the area that we're trying to protect loosely so that we don't give away anything. Loosely, the area that we are protecting. So the light green is the 130,000 acres. and then this metastasizing network of roads just reaching out and trying to get in. And so they're trying to come in from the north where that arrow is. They're trying to come down. And so the police are fighting them along this. And it's a full-on drug war right now. And so stopping that, securing this northern boundary. And so when I – and again, just the power of what we have. When I posted this, I asked Stefan to make – show people the road and where it's going to go. we posted this video and said we have to protect this hundred thousand acres right now and all up here is uncontacted tribe territory and just from that one post we got 150 000 in like 48 hours and we bought this concession we stopped that road but now they're up here and they're trying to come down so it's like and this is the thing again you said you know it's great yes you get to be an adventurer and you get to live in in the jungle sure but it's like there's this this mission impossible thing where it's like you might get lucky enough to pull off your psychotic mission, you know, jump your motorcycle off the train and parachute down and stop the bomb before it goes off. Great. How many of those do you get? And we're having to do it every month. And if we, that's the thing, these amazing people that are supporting the Rangers allow us to patrol and protect us because once we have this land protected, the interesting thing is that the The police can go into any of the light green areas. If anybody's there, just arrest them. They're on Jungle Keeper's land. They're out. And eventually that land will become National Park if we're successful. The problem with the land that's not is it's a gray area. It's the middle of the Amazon. Are they allowed to be here? Do they really have cocaine? Because they'll plant papaya for acres and a little bit of cocaine behind it. You know, they'll put the sacks. They're sneaky. And so they have to build a case, and it takes time. and then the road comes in and they, you know, and in that time then they'll knock off a police officer. And it's like, if we were just able to get this tomorrow, the whole problem gets solved. We can, we could, we could give the police two more boats, you know, and then they could do all the patrolling they need. So the mission is clear. The mission is very clear. And the problem is that right now we've been playing defense and sustaining losses. And either we need to inspire enough people that the donor program goes through the roof, and instead of having several thousand donors, we have, you know, 50,000 donors. And we, again, we'll raise, what is it, we need $20 million to save the rest of the corridor. We'd raise $20 million overnight with enough people. Or we need one of these people that has the resources to come in like Batman and just go, I want the park named after me and I'm just going to come in and give you the 20 million and then we do it tomorrow and then we make a documentary about how we saved a river and the tribe and the monkeys but right now we're you know begging on the side of the road for enough change to buy bullets so that we can stay alive so these narcos they're there's a kind of distributed network where a bunch of them are pretending to be farmers. So they're holding onto the land and then maybe they start planting cocaine on the land slowly and they build airstrips. Are they trying to stay under the canopy with airstrips? It's brilliant. First what they do is they subsidize the poorest people. And they say, go up this river, turn left at the tree, and just start there. And they're like, here's a few grand and these people are like i never had a few grand before they're like buy gasoline here's a chainsaw go clear some land they send these people up there and then when they show up a year later and these people have made an illegal farm out in the jungle they go hey we need a safe house remember that time we gave you the gasoline and now you live here you're going to work for us now and so they they're kind of a friend of the people like that they have safe houses all over the jungle and then when the boss has come to collect what they're growing out there I mean, the police busted a narco operation that was in the middle of the jungle. I mean, you know, hiking to the ancient forest, like just days into the jungle. These people are going on foot with sacks and stuff. And the way they do their airstrips is you think the canopy of the rainforest is 150 feet tall, 160 feet tall. And if you clear the interior of the landing strip, the trees are still meeting overhead. and so you can't fly over and see down which is the same reason we didn't know about the road that was going to the ancient forest because overhead the trees are meeting so you're not going to see it on satellite you're not going to see it from a plane and these pilots, these bush pilots fly in and they'll just duck in under the canopy land their plane, load up and then they fly out I mean, expert pilots so it's impossible to detect it's almost impossible to detect we're working with people now it's this arms race They were going, okay, there are drone programs. I talked to someone that has a different type of drone, a 16-foot drone that uses the thermals to climb up and has solar panels on the wings and flies for two weeks at a time. It's like a glider that recharges itself, and it'll keep constant imagery. So we'll get almost up-to-the-moment data on disturbances in the canopy. It's like, well, that'll be a firsthand alert system. But then we've got to get the police out there, which, as you know, a two-day expedition by boat is the only way. And so the local police force there may be dedicated, but putting people on a multi-day expedition to go get shot at in the jungle is nobody's idea of a good time. Do you understand? Have you researched into this whole other world of drug trafficking, cocaine trafficking? How big is the operation here looking at perplexity, multi-thousand ton, multi-billion dollar global industry? I mean, globally, it's a monster. Colombia, Peru, Bolivia, and they move north and east of the Americas, the Caribbean, the Atlantic to each major consumer markets. Yeah, this is a machine fueled by a lot of money and a lot of brutality. number of cocaine users worldwide, about 25 million people. Users. So there's a market. And when there's a market, you're going to find a way. Quick pause, bathroom break. All right, and we're back. And me as somebody who is afraid of heights, and I've got a chance to interact with you a bunch, you're in some sense fearless and I've watched you climb a lot of trees you've helped me climb a tree and there's this wonderful part of the book where you talk about finding the tallest tree in the forest you knew at the time and that was something that you passed and thought was impossible to climb and you talk about climbing it you take us to the experience of that and that leads you to seeing the mist river in the rainforest as the sun rises I was wondering if you could talk to the story of that, both for, at least for me, but even for you at that time, the terrifying process of climbing a tree like that for the first time with JJ at the bottom cheering you on, and what it felt like to see the mist river. That tree, you've met that tree. She's a good one. Her base is at least as big as this room, and she's probably about 160-something feet tall. When you're looking at these giant buttress roots going up, which I'd been doing for 18 years at that point, I always said, man, if I could just climb it. I never had the rope skills. I developed as a rock climber. I was working on strength, and I trained for it. It's like most things. You can't just do it. I'd gone and climbed up 30 feet and gone, no way. The trunk of the tree goes vertical for about 70 feet before branches even come out. So there's just this one big vine. And JJ and I did it at, I want to say like 4 in the morning, really early. The howler monkeys had just started. And you start climbing with the rope up this one vine. It's not a technical climb. It's a strength climb. You have to gorilla up the spine, and it's all back strength. And so I did it, no shirt, no shoes, straight up, and JJ had the belay device. And so every, like, 30 feet, I would put in a piece of webbing and a carabiner. So then you go up another 30 feet, and you put a piece of webbing and a carabiner, and you don't know what you're going to find, and you're going up in the dark. And so when you say it's a lot of strength that involves, so there's very few places to rest, you're essentially just lifting the whole time. You're lifting. It's extremely exhausting. Extremely exhausting. thing. Like I really trained for a long time and there is no rest. You have to only rest you get, uh, hurts. You have to, you'll have to cling to the tree and your, your, your feet are smeared against the bark and you're holding on with your toes if, if anything. And if you fall, you know, if I put a, if you're climbing up, it was basically trad climbing. If you're climbing up and you put a safety, which is, you know, a piece of piece of rope with a carabiner and you put my rope through that again, as you're doing that, it's dangerous. Cause if you fall, you fall. So then I do that, and then you climb up. Right before you put the next one, you're going to fall double. So if you climb 30 feet, you fall 60 feet, and so your head's going to smack against the side of the tree. As you're climbing, you don't know if you're going to reach into a wasp nest or if there's going to be a venomous snake. And there's, by the way, in those trees a lot of those, a lot of those. And it took me over an hour just to get to the branches the first time, and it's just, again, full exertion, everything I had. And then you get to the branches that are above you, and each of the branches is the size of a mature oak tree. They're just, you know, these huge branches, big, big, big branches inside, thick as a minivan. And you're climbing up this straight tree that's like the World Trade Center, just huge. And then I had to traverse around the tree on vines, and then finally I get up into the crown of this tree. And then from there I called down to JJ, and I just see this little speck of light, you know, 85 feet below me. And then I climbed up to about 120 feet, which is up here, and I sat there. And you're doing all this still in darkness. We're doing all this in the pre-dawn light. And so when I got up there, now the howler monkeys are going, and the jungle's starting to vibrate, and you can hear the first macaws starting to chirp, and everything's starting to turn on. And in the east, the sun is coming over the jungle, and so the sun, the first rays get line of sight to the canopy of the jungle. It starts lifting the mist off the canopy. All of that moisture starts coming up, And I'm sitting on this branch at 100-something feet above the ground with dark jungle below me. And all of a sudden, I see the river. I see the mist river I'd always heard about. They say that there's a river above the Amazon, an invisible river, that has more moisture in it. More water is flowing above the Amazon than is flowing in the Amazon. And I'd heard this my whole life. And you think, okay, the fact that there's a molten core of the earth or that black holes theoretically exist is just like one of those things. You're never going to see it. And in this moment on this tree, I was sweating and just ripped apart and bleeding. I was sitting up there and I saw the mist river and it was flowing over the canopy in the golden rays of the morning. And the macaws start taking flight and there was monkeys below me that were looking up. And you could tell they were confused. They were looking at me going, what is that? And I just had this absolutely incredible moment. I wanted to, you know, it felt like you're seeing God. I wanted to share it with everyone. you know I felt I felt I felt guilty afterwards for having had a moment like that but it felt like I had done this insane risk and and um you know risk falling out of the tree or or getting strung up on the ropes and of course it's just me and JJ so something goes wrong no one no one's going to help you um and being out there on that branch felt suicidal because even then if you fall it's it's a giant swing back to the tree but the beauty that I saw up there It was so intense that it sucked the air right out of my lungs. I had tears in my eyes, and I'm just watching this incredible process flow over the earth, this legendary thing that I'd heard about that scientists described, and now I'm seeing it with my own eyes. It felt like the gift of the tree. And you write, Now in the branches of the greatest tree in the jungle, I watched as the mist river caught the morning rays illuminating golden currents. swirling as it rushed over the canopy like a stream from heaven. In the troughs and basins and lower areas the river was deep blue. But then as it flowed up and over the taller trees, slow rapids washing over the canopy, the mist river became ignited, electrified in the gold magnificence of the sunlight. Scores of birds flew up in and out of the churning currents. The life and breath of the Amazon was flowing from north to south along the basins of the Lesbias of the jungle. My God. My God. I thought of everyone I loved, of every creature contained in the leafy distance. The jungle itself was like a great being, a monstrous leviathan of warm green might. I wanted to call down to JJ and tell him to find a way up. I wanted my mother to see it. I wanted the world to see it. The light filled my eyes, and I found myself wiping away tears. You know, I should take the small tangent of saying the obvious, but the thing that needs to be said is you're a fucking great writer. Thank you. I mean, come on, I'm just describing what happened. All right. You mentioned Macaw as part of the process of the jungle waking up. I read that, you know, when you first started in the jungle, that's kind of your job is to study those. And me as a fan of monogamy and birds, so because they're beautiful, but they're also monogamous creatures, they scream at each other quite loudly. What are some interesting things about them? Among which, by the way, you write how important the Ironwoods are to their well-being, to their life. Yeah, I mean, when I went down there, that's, like I said, you know, for young people, if you want to get out there, go do it. I agreed to stay at the station and do like six hours of macaw research every morning. So you'd wake up before dawn and go sit and just stare at the side of the river. And the macaws would show up. And like you said, they all scream and bicker at each other. That's just how they talk. It's very loud and very harsh. But they do love each other. You can actually hear when you walk through the forest. I know what the sound of macaws giving affection is. They make a certain kind of sound when they're just preening each other's feathers and taking care of each other and just nuzzling. And then there's a different call altogether when they're yelling at other macaws or saying, let's go. And you start to learn macaw language. What have you learned about relationship and successful marriage from listening to macaws scream at each other in nuanced different ways that you're talking about? Well, I guess. Never mind, you can skip that question. it's interesting to see two animals sticking by each other's side and they're both raising a chick and at the bottom of the stairs at the station there is a macaw nest in an ironwood and the relationship that you mentioned is that in the jungle there's a limited amount of macaw real estate and those are all ancient ironwood trees at least 500 years or more so they have to be you know thick thus again car thickness or bigger and when a branch falls off it creates a hollow and the macaws use that to reproduce. And because there's only so many nest sites in the forest, only about 17% to 20% of the macaw population reproduces in a given year. So they have a slow replacement rate. And macaws are one of the things that people come to the jungle to see. And so along with gold mining and logging and all these extractive things, in our region, ecotourism has been great. It's given the local people jobs as guides and cooks and chefs and carpenters. And so macaws are a huge part of that because it's one of the last places where you can see these flying rainbows over the canopy. Or when you're on a branch from one of these trees and macaws fly under you. And again, they'll fly by. You hear the wind in their feathers. And they'll look at you over their shoulder and go, what? They'll just keep going. Just loud. And they'll just keep going. and then they'll join up with other macaws and they fly across the horizon. It gives you this sense like you're seeing something from the dinosaur times. It just looks like wild jungle and there's nothing human in sight and there's just this savage canopy to the horizon and just these beautiful birds flying over. They're just magical. You have this Instagram post with an anaconda around your neck. So, I mean, there's a million questions. Maybe we can talk about that experience, but also how did you not die? So as you know, we've been studying the habits of Enecdes marinus for quite a while. The lowland green anaconda is the largest, heaviest snake on Earth. And I've been practicing a lot for a long time. And this is the biggest one we've ever physically caught. This was just under 20 feet. It was 19 feet something. and she can see she's in the middle of shedding and the other interesting thing with her is that she had blue eyes because she was in the middle of shedding and their the scale over their eyes turns blue right before it comes off of their head and so i've never caught a blue-eyed anaconda before but if you look at the size of my head and the size of my hands you start to imagine that thing's head is bigger than a great danes it's huge and so the power on that when we tried to lift her to measure her, we wanted to bring her up out of the stream and get her over to the side so we can straighten her out and measure her. And again, we're just trying to take some simple data points and then release her. And she, at one point, she just decided to flex her body and you just see 10 people fly this way. And then she flexed in the other way and 10 people fly this way. And every time that mouth would open, she would just open the mouth and try to, she would just reach back and she'd just be like, just let me do it. And you know that if she gets purchase. Once they get purchased, they just, they wrap you so quick and they'll just, they'll crush the life out of you like you're a bag of chips. And if you've ever seen a mouse in a mousetrap, when the mousetrap goes down and the eyes come out, and when snakes, anybody that's owned snakes and fed them mice knows this, that sometimes if they catch it right, the guts will either come out the back end of the front end. So I'd imagine that the same thing will happen with a snake, you know, it's that big. It's bigger than I am around. So they have a process That's when you say purchase, they want to bite, just hold, and then they... Yeah. But again, all she wants is to be let go. To her defense, this massive snake, we named her Millie for the data entry, she just wanted to go on her way down the stream. The comments on this are hysterical. People, you know, this is the worst example of white people should have ever seen. I mean, Snoop Dogg shared it. One guy goes, he goes, congratulations, you've touched enough grass. Go back inside. Yeah, somebody said, interesting use of free will. Yeah, I saw Kill Popper 007 commented, and maybe you can tell me if this is correct. Anacondas are ambush predators. If you approach them, they will usually try to flee. It will not register you as food. There's other reasons, too. This is in response to how did Paul possibly not die from this. There's other reasons, too, but this is the main reason. They're pretty much apex at that size, so their fear isn't as prominent. He was calm, so the snake was calm. It's insane to do and still risky, but he might actually be the most qualified anaconda handler on planet Earth. Paul is one interesting cat hugging emoji. Is that accurate? yes at that size they're apex so they're really not thinking about defense they're just like get off me yeah if i was to hurt her like just like if i was to like touch you in the arm with a needle you'd react if i was to do anything that hurt her which i'm not doing she would turn around and bite me to say go away but they also they don't want to bite because their recurve teeth make it very difficult to detach and also they're putting their head then at the source of the dangers it's not a good calculation. And so the giants, and I've had the privilege of interacting with four or five anacondas in the 20 to 26 foot range, and all of them have been very Leviathan-like, and they just don't want to move. They don't want you to, they just want to keep going. And he's 100% right on all of that stuff. I don't know. I've caught 90-something anacondas at this point. Many of them have been massive. Then there's the one that me and JJ didn't get at the floating forest because it was bigger than we could tackle, bigger than my hands. I couldn't touch fingers. But every single one of them has chosen flight over fight. Only the little babies and the smaller males get snappy. They'll come back at you like a normal snake. And just if you grab their tail, they'll try and just bite you and then go. But these big females, you know, they're like dragons. They're like these big legendary things that live in swamps. And the The only reason they've gotten that big is because they have a reliable prey source in a secluded place away from humans, and they've been there for decades just pulling things down to hell and eating them. Oh, and the other thing, I mean, look, I have a team with me. So there's people holding the – Yeah. I mean, let's be real here. I would never do this. If I was out in the jungle by myself at night, doing this would be suicide, 100%, Because for every second like there that I'm going, oh, I'm in the water and she's over my neck. Yeah, okay. And if JJ wasn't there to jump in and unwrap her, then I die. 100%. She's continuously wrapping. She's continuously on her back saying, come in here and let me arm bar you. Let me squeeze the guts out of you. She's just gone. Let it happen. And moving slowly. moving really slow with that assurance of power where she doesn't need to try and tap you quick. She's going to get you eventually. Although to push back on something you just said, having known you long enough, let's be honest, you're saying I wouldn't be insane enough to do it. I think you would be. I mean, there's a line of insanity, and you, my friend, walked that line masterfully so far. So I think there's, when you're able to sense the animal, whether it's crocodiles, caiman, or anacondas, and maybe radiate a sense of calm, I've seen you be able to go into some dangerous, from my perspective, situations and make it seem like it's not dangerous at all. and maybe when you become one with the ecosystem, maybe you're not a threat to it and maybe that's why you can survive. I haven't been able to make sense of it, really. Look, I would say this. In the case of elephants, if we ever end up in Africa together, I can get incredibly close to elephants because I've spent enough time with them where so far, every time I've been able to, it's always been a mock charge. And you can be one with the elephant and learn their language enough that you respect their boundaries. And you also show them that they're not, like, this better be serious. Because you're either going to have to kill me or you're going to have to just turn around and go back to eating. And you can have that exchange with them. And with smaller snakes, I'll be careful and whatever else. I can tell you with this that when you have both your hands around an anaconda's neck, I truly have been known to surprise myself with the decisions I make, but this alone would lead to death 100%. It's like laying down in front of an 18-wheeler with it in neutral. It's like it's going to roll over you. This is going to turn into anaconda handcuffs with this thickness, and then that is going to wrap you with this thickness and then six more of those are going to go around your body and you will get squeezed and you will turn into goop. And she will not, just like that guy said, she probably is in defense mode and not food mode, so she'll probably just neutralize the threat and then go back to sleep. I have to ask you about the floating forest and you write about Santiago. Once again, beautifully in the book of the time when she told you the stories, and when your mind and eyes were still fresh and maybe skeptical and more leaning towards the Western world point of view versus the jungle point of view. Santiago's eyes were glowing in the darkness. He watched the orange embers spark upward to join the celestial river of stars that arched across the night sky, as if the memories were written there. He squinted, his face as wrinkled and weathered as an old map of the world, vast experience whispered in the firelight, as ephemeral as the breath that spoke the words, but powerful enough to latch on and sink down into some deep part of me. This is Pico saying, Papa, tell me about the anaconda on the Blackwater stream. And he tells the story of that. he talks about it big and having horns, and you write once again masterfully about you at that time having doubts. It sounds like bullshit, but now more and more of the things you've seen of the jungle and the things you sense you've not seen yet, all of those stories seem to be true. The one he was referring to may be 36 feet long, this big, he shows it. he says that the floating forest is the place you need to go, gringo, if you want to be liberated of your doubts and skepticism. Uh, so tell me about the anacondas you've encountered in the floating forest. Well, the thing he's describing there is that he's saying they found an anaconda that had horns. Yeah. And in that moment we were all hanging out by the side of the river and I, I said, that's enough. I stood up. I was like, come on. I was like, there's no anaconda that has horns. And, and, If I've learned anything in 20 years of living with the indigenous people in the Amazon is that they're not wrong. You know, if they say there's a tribe of naked people with arrows out there, they're right. They're right. And they know what an anaconda looks like. So if he says he saw an anaconda with horns, he saw something that ain't a normal anaconda. And a smaller version of this played out recently where one of the people that works at the treehouse, He came and he said, I found a snake and it was in the water tank. And he goes and it had green spikes on it. I said, there's no snake that has green spikes. I said, congratulations, you're an idiot. You know, and I made fun of him. And I said, I know all the snake species that are here. I said, none of them have spikes. There's no snake that has spikes coming off of it. And he said, no, it had long spikes. He said, the snake is this big and it had spikes this long on it. I said, there's no snake with spikes. Until finally he came and he got me in the night. And he goes, the snake with spikes is there. And I said, well, I'll get out of bed for that. Let's go. And I said, and I guarantee it's not going to be there when we get there. And we got to the water tank, and I shined my flashlight down, and sure as shit, there's a snake in there, and it's got thousands of green spikes coming off of it. And I could see the snake head, and the spikes are coming completely perpendicular out from its body. And for a second, I really was having this out-of-body experience, And the snake saw us, got scared, and swam. And all of the spikes collapsed onto its body and became smooth. And then I realized, snake had been living in the stagnant water for a while and developed algae that was growing off of it. So when it was sitting still, all the algae would settle out. And so if you look straight down on it, it's a water snake that has algae growing on it. And so it does look like a snake with spikes. He's not wrong. Yeah. It was. It was a water snake. It was some sort of helicopter. but there's always an answer like that where they're not wrong so when they tell you something like there's an anaconda with horns and multiple people have seen it you make an expedition there if somebody said there's giant ground sloths in this one valley I wouldn't be like they're extinct I'd be like where you start to listen after the tribe walked out of the forest you could tell me that day if a tyrannosaurus rex walked out behind them I would have been like it makes sense Let's go to the floating forest. Do you ever think about what creatures are in there? I just had a conversation with Michael Levin at Tufts University. He's this biologist who creates biological life forms in the lab, but he also studies all kinds of weird, what he calls unconventional intelligences on Earth. And he speaks about that from a perspective of just understanding the incredible intricacies and weirdnesses of biological systems. So, you know, the soup of organisms that's there in the floating forest is probably incredible. You ever think about, like, what kind of weirdness is there? Yeah. I mean, along with giant snakes is animals that are existing in an ecosystem that's isolated, right? And so the tapuies, you know, like in the movie Up, those Venezuelan cliff jungles where it's like the straight, like the angel falls. And up there you have this allopatric speciation occurring where these isolated communities are departing from whatever's down there. And so on the floating forest, you have this very unique ecosystem where there's animals living on grassy islands. There's animals living in the tops of palm trees. And so in that nightmare soup that exists beneath the rafts, there's probably insects. And, I mean, I've seen lizards there that we have been unable to identify. There's things there in that. I mean, I can't imagine. I don't think the decay is going to happen. There's probably not a lot of oxygen in that water. And so, I mean, I brought a few scientists there, and they've all just been like, this is, you know. Yeah, how did this form? We've brought hydrologists there, and they're like, how the hell did this thing form? And then, you know, trying to study what creatures live under that is amazing. But the big anacondas, it's interesting because they truly are the apex, so they're unbothered. They're not really using their power for anything. No, and I'm sure if I bit her, she'd turn around and kill me. Yeah, but in a bored kind of way. Like, it wouldn't even, it would just slowly kill you. But I wonder if once she killed you, though, if she'd be like, you know, just like... Take a bite? I mean, if she'd... I mean, bite, they'd swallow, right? So, like, once you collapse your shoulders, it's like, you know, if you killed a perfectly good hamburger and it was, like, in your hands, dead, you'd be like... Oh. Okay. You know, maybe I'll try it. I mean, they need the calories. Yeah. And then take a six-month nap. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's truly incredible majestic creatures, though. Yeah. I love this picture. Again, not just the size. I want you one day to feel the... And again, the wild ones are not like the captain. The captain ones are soft from sitting in a cage their whole lives. These guys have been flexing every day. Yeah. So that it's like you're hitting steel cables. Yeah. It's just wild. Even if it's just being chill, you can probably get a hint of the power it's capable of, right? The one good thing about those really big ones is that when they do strike, it's like being in a fight with a big fat guy. It's like that haymaker comes from way back here, and you're like, oh, good. You're like, I'm going to duck. It's like they open their mouth, and they start accelerating. And it's pretty easy to either get out of the way or get it right before it hits you in the face, usually. Again, if you ever mess that up, just like the haymaker from the big guy, it's over. Your level of knowledge and comfort with snakes is incredible. I think they sense that. I mean, I've just seen you with snakes. They must sense in you the camaraderie. You have a way of speaking to animals and about animals like there's zero danger. Well, from my outsider perspective, it seems like a lot of them are full of danger if you're not communicating to them correctly. With snakes, I think it's more of a, the highway is dangerous. You can drive safely. I know what I'm doing, so I'm working with a snake that can't envenomate me and is small, and so I can allow it to freak out. And then if I can get it into my hands and warm it up, and it goes, oh, it's nice in here. and of course like you said I'm not scared and so the snake is going they are very sensitive to that and so it going okay this isn so bad you can chill them out but I don think snakes have any camaraderie I think that whales monkeys elephants I think that they can sense They can say okay this person trying to help me get out of this net. I'm going to relax and not kill them. I think that then very much so you have that dynamic. Speaking of somebody that does have camaraderie, there's this incredible video on your Instagram that people should go watch where this spider monkey was drowning and you jumped in to rescue sure so we're coming down river it's seven o'clock in the morning so i'm cold i'm always cold i'm sitting on the boat and i'm wearing my warm and you know i'm wearing whatever i'm sitting on the boat and jj's like look spider monkey and i go great spider monkey in the river like that's normal and jj's like no she's having trouble and i was like i was like why she's having trouble they swim all the time he goes no he goes you should help and so the boat the boat comes around then sure enough what you can't see in the video is that the river was so full that there's those little whirlpools and currents and she was trying to get to the side and again all the animal righteous people uh are very quick to be like let naked let nature take its course you know let the monkey drown or she doesn't need help you're interfering sure sure if you're actually there you would know something and that is that she did need help and she was drowning her head kept going under and so i saw that jj was right and so we pull around i took off whatever I could in the moment, jumped in with the paddle, because now here again, I trust monkeys, but I don't want her to bite me. She is going to be scared. So I thought, instead of, there's two ways I can do this. I can grab her by the neck, right? And like animal control her, grab her by the neck and the tail and take her out of the river, which is going to be scary for her. And instead I thought, I know spider monkeys so well. I've raised so many of them. And when you raise them, they curl up to your neck and they'll, like, if you have an orphan spider monkey whose mother got shot by poachers and you're taking care of her before we bring them to the animal rehabilitation experts, they'll curl up on your neck and they go, they'll just talk to you in your ear. And so I feel like I know a little bit of spider monkey, a broken spider monkey. And so I pull up next to her and I give her the paddle. We're in this rushing river and we're moving it 10 miles an hour downstream. and I tried to give her the paddle and she smacks it away. She was like, no, get away from me. I don't know what you are. And then she keeps swimming. She goes under again. I give her the paddle. No. And then she puts her hand around the paddle and that moment that she had paused on, she looked back at me and she looked at me like, yeah, right there. She looked back and she registered like, oh, this is another animal with a face. But if you were just listening or you need to go watch the video, you guys are just looking at each other and she's looking at you. yeah so cool she looked right at me but then she went she went no she was like whatever you are no and she went to go back in the she was like i'd rather die in the river she was like i'm so scared and i'm drowning and she looked at me she got scared she jumped back in and then i lifted her up and i went and i started talking in spider monkey and she just there's then like the next moment you see it she just goes sure and she just she wraps her tail you see her tail is around the edge of the paddle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she puts her hand around it. And then I lifted her, because I'm taller than she is, I lifted her out of the river. And so now instead of manhandling her like, you know, a raccoon you're catching by the neck, she's holding on in her spider monkey way to the paddle. And she looks back over her shoulder. She looks at me. And I'm sitting there. I'm over there talking to her and spider monkey. And she looks at me. And you hear her. She goes, I can't do the sound she makes. But she does this, whoa. She makes this spider monkey sound like, eh. And she goes, fine. and she's looking off the front end of the paddle and she's looking at the jungle and she looks back at me and she's like, you can just tell, she's like, I have no idea what's happening. But she accepted the help. And the difference is that it's because I spoke her language in this case. And I know that that would sound, that would be one of those stories that people would nail me on every time if it wasn't on camera. You can see the moment that she makes direct eye contact with me and goes, okay. And then as soon as we get to shore, she jumps off and runs off into the forest. I mean, to me, she's watching the video. It's so amazing because she's looking at you like the real. Yeah. You can see that there's an actual connection. Oh, yeah. That there's a communication. You know, the way humans, when you're maybe saving a human being that's drowning or something like this, there's that connection. It's beautiful to see, man. And then I read a little bit that spider monkeys have a, they're very intelligent, but they're especially socially intelligent. so they have social connections with each other so they understand what that means they understand what another entity means so you speaking it in a broken language probably is really important and a powerful way to indicate that wow you're in network like a foreigner but like in like it's like you're in a foreign country and someone goes helping helping helping you go okay sure like You know, you're not robbing me. You're helping, right? Yeah. No, they're incredibly, I'm telling you, I've had orphan spider monkeys so many times. And they wrap their tail around your neck and they hug you. And you realize that that connection that they have with their mothers when they hold on to them in the canopy, you shoot, the lagers shoot the mother and then I'm taking care of this baby. They hold on to you and they need that love and that connection more than they need food. If you put food or you put warmth of a body, they'll choose the connection over the sustenance. Yeah, they really value the touching, that connection. They're very tactile. They're very loving. They wrap their long spider monkey arms around each other. They're very much like us. They hold their babies. When it rains, all the spider monkeys will get together, and they'll kind of huddle up, and they'll pull leaves down, and they'll all huddle up together. When it's cold out, they get close. It's very cute. Yeah, that's true for a lot of them. I mean, they're distant relatives, but that's true for a lot of our relatives, the apes, chimps, all of them. They have this intricate, they're different, sometimes more violent, sometimes more loving, those social interactions. It's cool. It's cool that way. Yeah, I mean, them, you expect it from them. They're practically us. You know, to me, it's when other animals show. You know, the times that I've been on a trail and a jaguar has walked by and just been like, what's up? Keep walking. It's like, it's kind of cool of you not to eat me. I appreciate it. Has that happened to you? Yeah, I thought somebody was walking on the trail behind me, and I was doing a camera trap, and I put my finger up, and I was going to go, could you walk any louder? And I had my finger up, and I'm crouched because I was doing a camera trap. Jag walked by, and he literally was just like, just kicking leaves, just like having fun, mouth open. And he just walked by, and he looked at me, and he just went, so. Never broke stride, but like dead-ass eye contact with the bottom teeth out. And that jaguar look, I'm just like, hey. And I was like, okay. Now I'm going to have a full meltdown. You system, you start sweating. You're like, whoa. Because they're also so beautiful. When you actually see a jaguar and it's like bright yellow and the teeth and all the muscles and it's, you know. What do you think you communicated to the jaguar that it didn't kill you? No, nothing. The jaguar was making the decisions. I didn't do anything that like saved my life. He was just going somewhere. and because he's the king there, he just went eh yeah, probably also not threatened I don't know, I think there's something to you see, you're just taking for granted the things that you're putting out into the world you're probably radiating calm or not calm, but non-threat certainly non-threat, I also smell like an animal when I'm in the jungle I shower in the river I don't use deodorant or shampoo or any of that stuff So I don't smell, you know, you can just imagine to animals that have a smell that's like four times as good as ours, that, you know, just your deodorant, just your conditioner, just whatever other products, the detergent on your clothes smell, we smell like Times Square. We smell like a fire alarm to them. They're like, God, it is this thing. It smells very foreign. It's scary. Everything's scary. Speaking of scary, the jaguar was kind of friendly. He was like, sup. It's almost like he'd seen me before on the trails. So he was like, oh, it's just you. The one time I stood on the forest floor in India with a wild tiger and nobody else was there, the thing that the tiger did that was so unnerving, and again, a tiger's back is, you know, they're so much bigger than you think. It's like four jaguars. They're so big. She wouldn't look at me. And it was terrifying because now I'm going to do this to you. She'd look over there and she would look like this. She'd look like that. Never eye contact, but it was like, you're as important to me as a stick. And, you know, when you see two fighters square up and it's all about the eye contact and everything, trust me, you look through a person, you pretend they're not even there. That tiger insulted me on such a profound and disarming level that I never forgot. It was just like, you matter as much as a sparrow. You're just not one of the things that I care about. She just was looking around and carried on doing it. She was like, I'm going to walk this way. I was just like, holy shit, I'm going to run. It was just profound insignificance from this god of an animal with paws the size of dinner plates. I was like, man, if she does, I don't want her to look at me because if she looks at me, I'm going to probably look at the end. It just shows how much more powerful she is. That's probably the most terrifying animal on earth. Yeah. Yeah, the rock, paper, scissors of land predators. I think, like, polar bear and tiger got to be the most scary. Yeah, polar bear. Polar bear is pretty scary. Fuck with a polar bear. I don't think they're as fast as tigers, but I don't think you're going to go fast on the ice. Yeah. But, I mean, like, a tiger, it's like you can't outrun it. If you climb a tree, they climb better than you. If you get in a car, they get smashed through the door. It's like, if a tiger decides it wants you, pretty much nothing. But even if you had a gun, even if you had like a 9mm, you ain't going to stop a tiger at once. In the jungle, have you ever felt in danger? So putting the humans aside, was there animals? You've talked about that humans are really, and we've talked about how the humans are the source of danger. Is there, you often speak about animals as a source of beauty and wonder and elegance and grace and all these things, which they are. But I'm sure you've felt danger. Yeah. I mean, I'm very aware that a hornet's nest can kill you. They'll kill you. So the little guys. The little guys suck. I always think like when we were going through the jungle, one machete whack, and again, people don't realize how dense it is. You try to run. You get hung up on vines. You trip. You fall onto one of those trees with the black spikes. And then while you're laying there dealing with all that, they're just stinging you, and your body goes into anaphylactic shock, and you die instantly. It's like you just, that can very quickly just take you out. You're right. I mean, the biggest, you know, speaking of spikes, the biggest danger is not even the spikes. I mean, the spikes just because it creates open wounds, and then that can lead slowly to infection. So it's really that is the biggest danger. Yeah, and the Amazon, I mean, again, I've never heard of a human-directed violent jaguar in our region. They just don't attack people. I'd say mosquitoes are the thing that come after you. The snakes just want to be left alone. Even the venomous snakes. Again, the Bushmaster, I grabbed an 11-foot Bushmaster by the tail, and he turned around. He lifted up to about this high off the ground. And, like, if you could translate what he said, it was just, don't make me do it. It just said, you know, make my day. See, but that's the thing. You speak snake language. And then I put the tail down. I was like, okay. I was like, I'm scared. sufficiently scared. So the problem happens when you don't know what you're doing. So I'll give you an example. You want a dangerous animal story, I'll give you one. I was walking one time and I was trying to be responsible. It always happens when I'm trying to be responsible and get into trouble. Trying to be safe and you fall down. I'm trying to be safe and I'm on the side of the stream and there's elephants on the other side of the stream. I'm in India. There's a deep, like a 12-foot thing and then a stream and then on the other side there's elephants. And I'm walking and I'm like, I'm going to sit in a tree and I'm going to enjoy these elephants. I was going to make notes in my book like Jane Goodall. Then I came up against a cement wall, and it was the back of a male elephant. And in India, it's a male elephant that's been harassed and had fire thrown at it, and God knows what else. And he, if I translate what he said, he turned around and he just went, what the fuck? He just looked at me like, how dare you? And then just went, boom, just smacks apart the tree, turns around, and then that elephant was trying to kill me. That was not a mock charge. I threw off my backpack, zigzagged through the woods. He broke apart trees. If I had a GoPro on my back to show you what I saw, just the shrapnel and devastation of this thing, just bashing through trees. And again, every bush that I encounter is a possible trip. Every vine is a possible hang-up. And then if they get to you, he'll step on you and crush you. And so I, like, threw myself off the edge of this cliff, rolled down into the stream, and the elephant got to the edge of the cliff. and almost fell on me. Got to the edge of the cliff and did one of these and then came back down on his hind feet, picked up a stick, threw it at me, and the stick just smacked down next to me in the stream. And I remember I gave him the finger because I got alive. He just stormed off into the jungle. There's nothing like an elephant. There's nothing like an elephant anywhere. I loved the guy. I loved listening. I was so excited when I put on your podcast with the dinosaur guy because he was like, when a baby is born, He was like, it learns, you know, elephant, giraffe, T-Rex. I was like, holy shit. You know, along with like banana, water, sky of blue. And somehow you're like, and these are initial things in your first few months on Earth. These are the characters you're introduced to. Like, how the hell did T-Rex get there? They don't even exist anymore. And it's like, yeah, it was just such a fun. And I could hear you smiling through the mic as I'm listening to it. And I was like, oh, this is going to be a good one. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the dinosaur world is incredible, but the fact that you have such a predator evolved with such a gigantic jaw, so much destructive power is weird. And then he broke my heart because he was talking about how the T-Rex and Stegosaurus, he's like, all the books has them together, and he's like, they're nowhere near each other. They did not exist anywhere. And I was like, I want them to battle with each other. Yes. Speaking of elephants I feel like we'll be up to an adventure at some point After all this chaos is over You think back in the jungle? Africa? India? I think I would love to show you A herd of truly wild elephants In the African jungle I think that Us going on I think going on a boat trip through the Amazon Not a hiking one Where we're going through some really there's areas where you can get permits to go through areas where no one's allowed to go. They're completely protected areas. And you can just go for a week through areas where the animals have no idea what a human is. And so you can move through it. And so it would be a little bit more of an enjoyable experience, not a survival situation. Like go with JJ in a boat and just travel through the Amazon. Hey, maybe we protect this river. And then the river's knocked from north to south. and we just, you know, raft down with boat support. Like, you know. It's really incredible to see how it's all connected. I mean, the river, it's the thread that connects the whole story. And so it's nice to see how it all is connected. And that's why us starting in the mountains is also really nice to see where it begins. But it keeps going. The story keeps going. It keeps going. We did start in the mountains. An epic first day together. and hopefully people get a chance to see that video so I gotta ask you about the writing I mentioned you're an incredible writer, what's your writing process like for this book, Jungle Keeper for the Mother of God for future books you're writing like a Stephen King, do you have a drinking thing that you go to some dark places in the basement, do you write every single day? Do you take little notes here and there? Like your notebook, there's a bunch of doodles, a bunch of writing. What's your process like? I try to journal every day for a number of reasons. It's accountability. It helps me keep track of. It's fun to see your hopes and dreams. It's fun to record the mundane moments that we all forget about. And that might be like cooking in the kitchen with your mother. That might be a fun walk you had with your dog, like little things that you just, you think you're going to remember everything. You just don't. And so I have piles of notebooks. I have just piles of piles and piles of notebooks in my, in my room. And, uh, when something happens, I write it down. And I, I, if a cool story happens, I will write down, or if I find a leaf from an extinct tree, um, I will make a etching of it. But I just, as anything that happens that I find remarkable in any way, um, either for my own personal memory or for writing, I'll write it down. And then when I go back to it later, A, I have a very good memory, and then B, the facts are there. And so when something happens, like you rescue a spider monkey, or something happens that's remarkable in life, you get to spend time with someone that you haven't in a long time, and you get that feeling of like, oh, that's why I'm such good friends with them. You write these things down and then it's always there. And so I feel like whenever I don't journal that I'm missing out on keeping my life and my memories. Um, so yeah, I don't, I don't do that. That Stephen King quote about like, you know, um, amateurs wait for inspiration and the professionals, we go to work every day and he's like 10 pages a day, whatever it is. Um, I don't do that. I write when I feel like it. And I like to, you know, I'll start thinking of like, oh, this is a perfect way to, you know, start this scene. Because like the moment this happened, I felt so intensely. And if we bring people in and I'll just be in a car or a boat or something and I'll start thinking about it. And I'll go, this is just, the thing is you got a carpe diem. And I'll go, okay. And then I'll go, okay, where did that happen again? I go, okay, I'll go to that page. And I'll go, okay, so what exactly did that happen? Then you get the laptop. so it's brain to paper to laptop always paper in between how do you go desperate notes to the final thing it's difficult to convey through words the experience and you do that well do you edit a lot do you iterate that's where Stephen King was right I look at writing like sculpting you have to have something to sculpt and so when you're you're thinking of a story again a lot of i mean i love i love i love listening to great storytellers and i actually love listening to bad stories just like i like watching bad movies to see what they did wrong when you listen to someone that starts a story and they have you hooked from the second they start and then you like wait but how did that happen why was that happening what happened next and they keep you going and they drop the information perfectly and so every now and then you figure that out in that moment of inspiration so then i have my facts written down here and then I'll you know I'll do an outline on a page or something but then I have to get it all out of me with a pen then I can move to and I'll almost close my eyes I'll almost just close my eyes and write the story I just need to you're making the you're you're literally making your clay and so it's like you're you make the shape of the thing before you that and then editing is is the giving it details so you do take passes like oh my god yes I mean dozens and dozens. That's where writing sucks. When you're finishing a book, and I'll never do that again. So what I'm doing now is this last book, there's so much that it covered. And I was in the jungle and it'd be like hiking for 10 hours a day, dealing with narco traffickers, all this stuff. And then I'd have to edit at night. And it was like, this is no way to live. So now what I'm doing is I'm writing chapters as I feel like writing chapters when something amazing happens or something remarkable, I go, this is going to be its own chapter. I write it, edit it, and then I send it to my sister, who's an expert editor and has lived more in literature than most people live in real life. And she'll let me know if it's good or bad or needs to be tweaked or moved along, whatever it is. When I get it back from her, it's marked up. And now what I'm going to do is I'm just going to put those aside. And then the next time I want to write a book, it's not starting from scratch on 300,000 words. It's just, here, it's ready. Much easier. What kind of both of you think you might write in the future? Well, there's Mother of God, and now there's Jungle Keeper, and then I'm already working on Endgame. Because there's so much that has happened. I think I told you when you were there, but there's a whole chat. Right before you came, me and JJ went to the back end, behind our river, to this horrible part of the Amazon that's ten times more lawless than where we are. And instead of having no people, there are people. And you want to talk about Amazonian, no country for old men. It's the oil companies and the missionaries and the newly contacted tribe. There's something called the, there's a people called the Nahua people. And they, they're recently contacted and they've been ripped out of the forest. And they're standing there with their little bows and arrows. They're tiny people. They're standing there. The Nomoles are tall. The Nahua are small. and we just we saw brutality in this horrific horrible it's like it's like sicario it's like just absolute lawlessness i remember the moment jj looked at me and he said you know we're both we both think of ourselves as tough i think until we get in these certain situations and he looked at me and he went we're not safe and we looked at the people around us and we were at this like side of the river port eight days up this river and you could tell that everyone that was looking at us was making a calculation about how inconvenient it would be to kill us at this moment and how much money they're like camera watch clothing backpack and they're like it's a nice backpack and like but you could tell they were just shopping and and jj and me were like we're gonna you know where are we putting the tent tonight i was like we're not staying here and then i was like maybe we should stay here i was like i don't know what to do and And then one of the little Nawa people came over to JJ and was asking for food, and he made the mistake of explaining money to them. They'd never had money before. So he gave them a piece of money, or a couple of coins. And he was like, oh, if you just go over there, there's a man that will sell you something, and then you can eat it. And the guy was like, bow and arrow? And JJ was like, no, no, no, no. Give him this, and he'll give you food. And it worked. And then JJ got sworn by like 60 of these little tribals came in, and they all had bows and arrows, hands out. and JJ was running with all these like half naked people behind. And just that, that whole saga right there is like, I was, that chapter is going to be called river of the dolphin fuckers. Cause everyone we met on the river kept telling us, I'd say I'd have my, I'd have my camera with me and I'd go, are there dolphins here? And they'd go, yeah, there's dolphins. And if you fuck one, be careful. Cause they'll pull you under. I went, okay, weirdo to the first guy. Yeah. And then we got to like, you know, eight hours. further up river, met the next guy and I had my camera out and I'm like, hey, are there any dolphins here? And he goes, yeah. He goes, if you fuck any, be careful. He's like, because they'll grab on and pull you under. And I was like, what? And then like four more people told me the same things. I was like, okay. Yeah, the lesson learned in the jungle, you know, horns and anacondas, believe them. Believe them. So apparently on that river, they were all trying to be good Samaritans and warned me about the clear and present dangers involved with amorous dolphin encounters. So stylistically, I mean, that is a bit Cormac McCarthy. Ooh, he would have loved it. The people you draw, like writers you draw inspiration from like that. I mean, you're very close to him in terms of like, you like plug in every once in a while. You jump around stylistically, actually. I do. I do. It depends because sometimes I want to sink in and flex a little bit, which I don't think people really enjoy, but I enjoy it. You know, like talk about the, you know, just use all those flowery words and make these beautiful metaphors. but what I'm finding more and more is that it's modern readers aren't really looking for that they want easy read and that for my style of storytelling people really enjoy and tend to thank me for more of an Anthony Bourdain style where you're like so we found ourselves on the side of this river and we knew we were in danger the reason we were in danger and you just start telling the story and you know what forget that maybe once every two pages you can throw in one of those beautiful little zingers but it's like no one wants to watch you flex. But also sometimes you go even more than, I don't think Anthony Bourdain did like Hemingway like minimally, like word, period, word, like that. That's another way to flex that I really like that you do sometimes. It's just like less and just power and the spacing, the silences, the unsaid is what does the driving. I mean, that's what's so arresting about it. You read like For Whom the Bell Tolls. and, you know, the air was crisp and the water was sweet and the wine was good and the afternoon was warm. And you're like, I know what that's like. And these are not complicated sentences, but when he puts them together into a paragraph, you go, oh, yeah, I want to drink wine out of leather, you know, and lay by the side of that stream. It sounds so beautiful. And so sometimes, you know, I mean, just look at that. Look at that fire cracking on the horizon there. And it's like sometimes the only way is just these simple statements, you know. Writing's beautiful. I love writing. I love reading it. Have you interacted with LLMs much? Doesn't, you know, AI systems, chat GPT? There's a bit of a scary and a sad aspect to the fact that they can generate language extremely well. But something is missing and it's very hard to put your finger on it. My question to you is, I can pick out with stunning accuracy. When someone sends me a message and they've passed it through chat GPT, I know somehow I could tell, and I don't know how I could tell, but I could tell, I don't know if that'll, so that's one of those things like, like the images, like we're at the point where we can't tell anymore. Almost. I don't know if that's going to go away or if, or if like you said, there's something like one of the things that F Scott Fitzgerald does so much is he describes the moment of, you know, like he describes these incredibly human moments with such crystalline accuracy that you go, it must have taken you a month. You must have studied life so much to be able to put those, string those words together. I think in a book he writes about someone screaming with such abandonment that at the highest register her voice like wobbled and cracked. And you're like, oh my God, I know what that sounds like. and I wonder if because you can say you can say like you know write me the jungle book but make it sound like Cormac McCarthy wrote it and it's like it'll be like the jungle was dark and stern and the boy was you know it's like it'll do it and it's amazing my question to you is at least right now what are we picking up on on something as simple as a text message is very difficult to define but it's important to keep thinking about because what makes us human And you reassured me recently because I called you and I said, you know, I said, I come out of the jungle and all anybody wants to talk about is AI. And it's like everyone's like, it's like people are walking themselves into the matrix and asking to be hooked. You know, it's like everyone's just obsessed with this topic, you know. And you were like, man, you know, human art and human literature is going to actually become so valuable as this other thing happens. And like I expected the opposite answer. I thought you were going to be like, yeah, man, this really is. We're taking off and everything's going to change. And you were like, man, like, real artists are going to become more appreciated. As more and more compelling and effective bots appear on the Internet, we're going to value that less and less. I think we're going to value inhuman interaction more and more. And so, you know, artists showing art at galleries versus on the Internet, meeting in person. and actually it's going to force people to be more authentic and real and raw with each other. That's going to be the valuable resource. I mean, I think already, AI aside, I think that in today's world, I think that everyone's so, I mean, like movies have become so polished. Like there's no like weird quirky stuff. There's no risky stuff anymore. It's all very, very curated. I've almost stopped watching movies. I used to love movies. but it's like it's fun when they take risks when they're messy when they're real yeah I think Hollywood Hollywood stars Hollywood movie making process has become less and less and less popular because of that so I can't wait for movies to be reinvented independent film just raw edgy dangerous all that kind of stuff and like all the actors we like are in TV shows on various streaming platforms it's like they've all just gone home like they're not there like I was like I literally was like man I was like I miss movies What happened to a movie? I'm re-watching all the old movies that I like. And I was like, where is everybody? What are they doing? It's like they all have a TV series on Blue Blue or something. It's like, fuck. Yeah, I think they'll call them the raw, the dangerous, the edgy. What we just described is almost perfect for, there's a scene in Dead Poets Society where Robin Williams makes them open their books, and the first page of the poetry book is like, how do you identify a good poem? He's like, a good poem can be, and he makes a graph. And he's like, by the subject of the poem, and then the accuracy with which it's described, and you can tell whether or not it's a good poem. And he reads this, and the whole class is sitting there bored, and he's like, now rip that page out of your book. And they rip the page out of the book, and then he's like, now stand up. And he's like, now describe something, and he makes them bleed it and scream it. And it's almost exactly what we're describing right now. It's like, yeah, you can turn it into a graph if you need to, but it's something way messier than that. yeah and Robin Williams the person is a perfect example of the complicated beautiful human I miss him often whenever I see clips of him come up it's just I can't I still to this day can't make sense that a person like that can take their own life somebody who's brought so much joy to the world it scares me man it scares me. I'm scared of my own mind in that way. You know? That he could be at the top of the world. But he had an illness. Yeah, that's what I understand. Dude, life is a rollercoaster. And you're living through it. As scary as that, Robin, like you can go down the Robin Williams hole, I'll give you this. My very close friend, friend Gleb, he has a story. He was in New York City as a kid, and he saw Robin Williams walking down the street. And he went up to Robin Williams, and he went, oh, my God, it's Robin Williams. And Robin Williams was like, yeah. And he goes, can I have an autograph? And he goes, do you have any paper? And my friend was like, no. He's like, I'm 11. And Robin Williams was like, go get some paper. And Robin Williams' manager or somebody was with him, and he was like, Robin, we don't have time. We got to get up there. And he was like, hold on. He's like, I told the kid I'd give him a thing. He'll be back. And my friend heard this as he's like, please stay. Please stay. Like, you know, his whole life depended on this thing that he ran into, like, a diner, grabbed a napkin, ran back out onto the street. It took him a few minutes. He said Robin Williams was sitting there, and he said his irate manager was there just being like, come on, let's go. Robin Williams waited there and signed the napkin for him and, like, actually did it with a smile and a wink and, you know. Yeah, man, you could bring a lot of joy to the world. never forget that all those little interactions. I love it. I love it. That was one, another one of the James amazing quotes that I don't, I couldn't reproduce, but it's, you know, just that you, you don't realize the degree to which the things you do each day matter, even if it's just to the people around you. And it's like you are to the people around you, their entire life experience, if they're your kids, your parents, your partner. So yeah, the things you do. and if you can manage to put that extra energy where it's to the point where you do put a little magic on it, where it is fun, you show up home with something that you got, you know, play with the kids in a way that surprises them. I had a friend, a good friend of mine, this guy Vinny, he told me, I called him and said, what are you doing? He said, oh, I have a whole plan set up. He goes, it's supposed to be really good stars tonight. He goes, I'm putting my kids to bed. He goes, I'm putting my daughter to bed. He goes, I'm going to wake her up in the middle of the night. He goes, and I'm going to have a candle. He goes, she's never seen this. And I'm going to take her up to the roof to go stargazing. He's like, but I want her to sleep. And he's like, you know, remember when you were a kid and you, like, wake up? And it's like he was curating a magical experience for her to see the stars and, like, you know, like making warm tea and, like, all. And it's like, man, you can just, you can make it so great. Jane Goodall is the reason you met this guy. That's right. You've continuously spoken really highly of him. and he gave me this book that he has recently written, Echoes from Eden. Signed it. Yeah. Dax, A, saved my life, and B, is the example of what everybody wishes, you know. Dax made an amazing company, amassed an amazing fortune, and then said, I'm going to use it for good. He's given a lot, a lot of resources, a lot of love, a lot of effort to helping the Amazon rainforest and the environment in general. and he's one of the only guys I know who has a sexier beard than you. He's got me beat big time. Hero, thank you, brother, for your love of the wild. This book is about the heroes fighting on the front line for nature. Together we can protect Earth's last wild places. Speak soon, Dax. He supported all these initiatives. He was working. He went to the Amazon with Jane. He supported Jungle Keepers. He supported the Sea Shepherd. And so he really went out and said, okay, what are the environmental projects that are doing the most good? And where do I want to put my resources? And it's like everyone always whines about that. Like, how come these guys don't? And it's like he did, and he got a lot done. And then he went and visited all those projects, sea turtles and Indonesian orangutans and working with Jane. And so then that book is like sort of a state of the union on where conservation is at, and there's a lot of knowledge about how all the different strategies. It's so different protecting sea turtle eggs versus trying to save a river in the Amazon versus Jane's sort of global message of hope. And then he has a guy in there who's trying to save a specific part of, I think, Sumatra, and it's like just amazing stuff. The Congo. The Congo. And then he actually took the time to go to these places and see the operations on the ground. And are you still working with them? Yeah. Well, that's sort of the, you know, the way it happened in my life was the one time I quit conservation was right around the time COVID hit and I was going through a divorce. And I'm like 30 some or 32 years old and I had no job, no nothing. JJ was, JJ's mom had COVID. Don Ignacio, the shaman had COVID. Pico's leg was coming off. It was like nothing was working. Nobody could go anywhere. and I called Mosen and I was like, I was like, I quit. I was like, we're never going to go back to the jungle. The loggers just went out and we're tearing down everything. I just said, there's nothing, I got nothing. And I, in like this, in absolute black depression, I called him and I said, I quit. I'm going to go get a job. I said, I guess I'm just, you know, I guess I've been like Jungle Peter Pan and it's time to grow up. And I was like really embarrassed at the time that I did that. and then I spent like four days just laying in bed just with no idea what to do. The only thing I can do is this. And I had talked to Dax months earlier, told him my plan for protecting the river, for making a ranger team, and he'd been looking over the budgets and spreadsheets and everything and seeing if this was real. He was still forming Age of Union. And then four days after I quit, the phone rings and it's Dax, and he goes, hey, I looked over the budget, by the way. He goes, I'd like to make a 10-year commitment to Jungle Keeper. He goes, let's go. And, of course, he had no idea what I was going through, and he was just like, let's go. And it's like going from that depressed to that inspired and that single converse, like you could get the bends from that. Yeah, and it's not just the money that somebody believes in. No, it's that he believes. It's that we can – money means tuna cans and gasoline and being able to, like, buy shoes. You know, it's like we never had those things before. We're just living in the jungle watching our bodies decay. And he was like, no, I know how to run a company, and so I can tell what you guys need to run an organization. And he did that and then has stuck by us. And he came weeks ago. He came not that long ago to the Amazon, and we took him around, and he looked around and he went, I've never seen people. Because when he started, he said, you guys remind me of a startup. He said, you're a mess. And that was really right before Stefan had come in. And so now he's seeing ranger teams and boats going up and down, and we have complex systems and a donor program, and all these things are working well, and we're actually making progress, and we have annual reports and all this data. And he's like, you know, you can – you know, he says that people have donor fatigue where they donate money, and they don't know where it's going. And he goes, here, he's like, they can see what's happening. And so having someone like Dax in your corner is a good – it's a miracle, really. in the book it's going to sound again it's going to a lot of the things that happen to me in my life sound like bad writing you know in the movie when they're like they got the gun against their head and they're on the ground and you go they're not getting out of this one and then like someone bursts through the door and saves them and it's like that just happened too many times to me and it sounds like bad writing but it's it's really good life since you mentioned Stefan one more time one of the things I forgot to mention one of my happiest moments in life and many of them in the jungle with you is just talking late at night after ayahuasca, funny enough, chatting with Stefan and Dan and you and giggling and just talking about life and everything. And Dan is the guy I have to give a shout-out to. You should go follow him on Instagram, LifeWithDan. He's an incredible wildlife photographer. I've seen him. He's worked quite a lot with you. He has a love of nature, a love of the wilderness. a love of beauty, and is extremely good at taking pictures, but just goes to the edges with you. He's the only guy I've seen with the two giant cameras to be able to follow you into the darkness. Well, Dan, first of all, that picture I showed you where I'm in the tree, because I told you this story about with J.J. where I climbed the giant tree. Well, this is years later I climbed it. Dan was there, and so he flew the drone up and so got me in the tree. But what Dan's a really good example of is, like you were saying, what would you say to the kids? It's like, Dan listened to our talk, our first podcast, was living in Singapore, and he's like a young filmmaker. Signed himself, again, just get out there. He signed himself up to come on a Tamindu Expeditions with my company, and he showed up on the thing. And sure enough, their boat broke down, and I was off doing Jungle Keeper stuff, and someone was like, yo, their boat broke down. So we show up and I haul their boat and he comes up to me and he goes, he goes, I'm such a big fan. He goes, I just wanted to say hi. I said, oh, I said, well, great. I said, hello. I said, well, let's get you back on the river. And then, you know, someone came up to me and they said, you know, he's a really good photographer. Yeah. I said, everybody's a good photographer today. I said, that's great. Amazing. We have Stefan and Mosa. I said, what else do we need? And then someone I trust was like, hey, listen, look at his stuff. it's not normal and then i watched a few of his videos and i went holy shit and i went would you ever think of coming down for a few weeks to film and at the time he was like no way he was like no way and like he was like so amazing and like now we're bros no we film together all the time but he put himself in the position where he has the skill the insane skill i mean some of his things where he's tracking shots of a white-winged sparrow over the water where he's in the boat with an 800-millimeter lens getting these insane shots. I mean, he's just absolutely – I've never seen a talent like him with video. But wildlife photography and documentary filmmaking in general, it's not just about the competence of being able to pull off a difficult shot. It's like the patience required and, like, the discipline to just sit there and wait. I mean, when we went out into the jungle, he waited. Yeah. No, I mean, like, even I'm looking on this page, that shot of the emerald tree boa there, he got up before dawn to wait for the sideways light because he wanted to light. He had a vision of lighting the snake from the side. And then the macaws coming off the clay lake, how many days at the clay lake until he got the explosion of macaws. And, I mean, I'm up in the tree and he's on the walkie-talkie. And then it's also your lenses are going to fog. you have to be able to hike and do everything everybody else is doing and your job I mean the dude is you attract a lot of incredible people because the mission is clear and there's just like there's a vibrancy and energy to the whole thing, it's exciting that's why, that's why it's the best people come to work with you, come to hang out with you it's become an amazing team, I look around at the people and I go how did this how did this happen but it is getting more intense and dangerous and so on. I have to ask you the thing we've talked about. What do you think you'll do when you're getting older? This is pretty intense. This is pretty insane. Where do you see yourself years from now? I want to protect this river. We have to protect this river in the next year and a half or else we'll lose the chance. Either I'm going to have the first book I got to the Amazon and it was wild. second book we went we built this amazing organization and we got so close it'll be like those movies like like blow where it's like for a time it was amazing and then at the end it's not so great movie but yeah great movie but you know and that's what so you know and i'm writing this story as it happens and and you know end game might be written by somebody else um or we just got really close and then it all fell apart but but we're 130 000 acres of the way if we make it to 300,000. I think, I'm calling it now, I think what's going to happen is enough people are going to learn about this. It's going to tidal wave. We're going to make an amazing documentary about how we protected the wildest place on earth. And then I would love to have a few kids get a PhD, teach other conservationists around the world how to do this to save really wild places, keep inspiring people, keep writing books, keep going on expeditions. I don't have any problems with that. I can tell you, I, I can't, I can't do this much longer because the pressure of wondering if it's going to be okay. I've used all of it that I can. My Lord of the Rings analogy of like carrying the ring. It's like, you can only do that for so long. And so I'm actually very excited to, I need to know that it's safe. I want to know that. I mean, those, I mean, that monkey that I rescued out of the river now, you know, the, the toucan Lucas that comes back to visit us. Lulu's grand, we just saw a giant anteater not that long ago with Dax in the jungle. And like, like I know these animals and I'm responsible for protecting their home. And it would be so amazing to bring people to the tree house and show them this amazing place and put out documentaries. So I have no problem imagining a transition period. I would like to not be, I'd like to transition out of Blood Diamond and go to more of the, you know, the, sort of the professor role after this. You mean like Indiana Jones type of professor? Running from the tribes. As long as it doesn't go supernatural at the end, I'll be very happy. That always kind of let me down. Well, thank you for giving basically everything you got towards this mission that you're doing. And thank you for being who you are. It's been an honor of a lifetime to be able to call you a friend and to have this conversation, brother. This is the third time we've spoken. I think we'll talk at least 10 more times. And I think I speak for everybody in saying thank you and please don't die in trying to save the rainforest. I have to say thank you to you because our first conversation changed everything. It really did. In this story, it brought so many more people onto the mission and I think also lifted me up because, as we often acknowledge, this can weigh you down. And I often do get weighed down and I lose hope myself. And then I get lifted up by moments like that where someone I'm a huge fan of and who I respect so much reaches out and goes, do you want to come to Austin and do this podcast I do? and I respond to Lex fucking Friedman podcast, but you've really, really changed the narrative and allowed this to be a reality. And everybody, go pre-order Jungle Keeper, the book, available everywhere. And if you can, donate on junglekeepers.org. Now, this is an important mission, an ultra-competent team, and this is such a beautiful part of the world that I really, really, really hope we protect. So thank you for talking today and now let's go eat. Thank you, brother. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Paul Rosely. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And once more, let me say thank you for everything. Thank you for your support. Thank you for the love. And thank you for listening. And I hope to see you next time.