Strength With Heart: Redefining Masculinity and Compassion | Daniel Ellenberg – EP 725

coming up next on PassionStruck. If the only way that you can matter in a way is to prove your masculinity, that's a very ineffective and vulnerable way of living. Ironically, that trying to hide vulnerabilities by proving masculinity, but it's ultimately and ironically the most exposed you can potentially be because improving masculinity can always be disproved right in a moment. And a lot of guys live like that. Welcome to PassionStruck. I'm your host, John Miles. This is the show where we explore the art of human flourishing and what it truly means to live like it matters. Each week I sit down with change makers, creators, scientists, and everyday heroes to decode the human experience and uncover the tools that help us lead with meaning, heal what hurts and pursue the fullest expression of who we're capable of becoming. Whether you're designing your future, developing as a leader or seeking deeper alignment in your life, this show is your invitation to grow with purpose and act with intention. Because the secret to a life of deep purpose, connection, and impact is choosing to live like you matter. Hey friends and welcome back to episode 725 of PassionStruck. Earlier this week we opened the U-Matter series with renowned psychologist Barry Schwartz and explored how modern choice cultures reshapes agency, judgment, and regret, often leaving people exhausted rather than empowered. Today we continue that inquiry by turning to another force that reshapes mattering in modern life. The inherited scripts about what it means to be strong, worthy, and seen. Significance forms through our choices and through the voices and hearts that are allowed to be fully human within the systems we inhabit. This conversation sits at the center of the U-Matter series, an exploration of how people experience significance in a world organized around performance, proof, and rigid roles. As we move toward the February 24th launch of my upcoming children's book, U-Matter Luma, I've been reflecting on how early we learn the roles of visibility, who gets to feel pain without shame, who gets to ask for help, who is believed when they show doubt, and whose worth is allowed to exist without constant proven. Those lessons follow us from playgrounds into friendships, families, leadership, and institutions. My guest today is Daniel Elenberg, a licensed psychologist, leadership coach, and a pioneer in men's relationships and emotional development, with over four decades facilitating more than 10,000 hours of men's groups and workshops. He's the founder and director of Strength with Hearts Men's Groups, co-founder of relationships that work, an organization dedicated to emotionally intelligent personal relationships, and a principal in the Rewire Leadership Institute. Daniel's work examines how traditional masculinity demands constant performance of strength, how it armors boys against vulnerability from a very young age, and how that mirror quietly erodes connection, purpose, and the felt sense of matter. His insights explain why so many people, caring men, find themselves isolated, even when for deep brotherhood. In this episode, we explore how early conditioning teaches boys to armor against vulnerability, and why that blocks authentic matter. We go into the crisis of connection among men, loneliness, suicide rights, and the myth of stoic self-reliance. We discuss why proving masculinity is precarious and ultimately disconnecting. We uncover the power of strength integrating backbone with openness, courage with compassion, and then go into what it takes to stop performing and start showing up fully in relationships, parenting, and leadership. This is a conversation about discernment and about restoring full humanity inside cultural scripts that quietly train us to doubt our own tenderness. Let's continue the UMatter series with Daniel Ellenberg. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your hosting guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin. I am absolutely thrilled today to have Dr. Daniel Ellenberg join us on PassionStruck. Welcome Daniel. How are you doing? I'm good. Good to be with you, John. Well, we've been talking about doing this for months, so I'm so glad we're finally able to do this discussion, and we're going to dive deep today into the concept of strength with heart. Daniel, your work spans psychology, leadership, and men's emotional development. But before we get into frameworks and other things like that, what moment first made you realize that the traditional model of masculinity was failing men? Probably when I was a teenager, because I was very aware then as somebody who was fairly athletic, but not a star. I was always like in the mix, but not on top of the pile, in a way, it was just aware of hierarchy and proving masculine, proving how tough you were, improving how competent and on top of things you were. And there was just this way that I would have side conversations with guys who were saying, yeah, I feel some insecure. I feel like, because I was always somebody who would be curious and be going to ask the questions that most people wouldn't ask, and people would say things to me on the side, but it would never really come out in a larger format. And I could see some of the dilitarious impact of having to keep everything close to the chest that in any way involves one's doubts, one's insecurities. One of the things I noticed as I got older and wound up becoming a psychologist is that it's hard being human. I knew that then, but it's very hard being a human. And it's baked into the human system that there are threats. And we're not going to look that far to see people feel threatened quite often. And then what do you do with threats? Unmitigated threats will automatically trigger defensive reactions. And I actually think that's part of the biggest difficulties if people have is a tendency to get defensive or not being able to listen and being able to have to push and prove something. And so I've just seen that in terms of the male side of things, this thing about having to prove, I have to get my fingers in the race, bring it, prove masculinity is really a big problem. And I'd like to live in the world. People don't have to prove that you matter. I know that for you, John, mattering significance is just a core part of your orientation, which to me is hugely important, which is why I'm interested in you and your work. And if the only way that you can matter in a way is to prove your masculinity, that's a very ineffective and vulnerable way of living. And ironically, that trying to hide vulnerabilities by proving masculinity, but it's ultimately and ironically, the most exposed you can potentially be because in proving masculinity, it can always be disproved right at the moment. And a lot of guys live like that. Just one last thing I know of jumping to other things, there's a very well accepted theory in male gender, which is called a precarious manhood. That's a two-flour professors who we want to come up with this theory. Very simple, it was pretty obvious in a way, but it's basically that guys grow up learning that they have to prove their masculinity and that proving masculinity is difficult to kill. And if you have done it, supposedly it's easy to lose and there must be done in public. So there's something about that, these public displays of masculinity that are a big part of the difficult. You don't have to look at it for in the world and see how much of our world is predicated on guys trying to prove how tough they are and how strong they are. It's like great. I think it is important to me to show you that in a strong, I'm not doubting that in the least. If that's the way that you want it mattering, it will be so life of disconnection. Well, when do you think, since we're talking about mattering, when do you think that men or boys start internalizing this false sense of who they need to be to feel accepted by the world around them? As a very emotional person, John, I feel sad just even thinking about it frankly, because it's early. Probably like the B4, if you look at early childhood development, little boys are at least as emotionally reactive as little girls, meaning that they cry probably more often than little girls that want to be held, they want to be nurtured, they want to connect. And then they start learning these messages from the culture that it's just not very male. You don't need mommy. Be independent. This is going to get pushed toward premature independence and they're going to get shamed for showing a little bit like crying, big boys don't cry. These messages are so powerful and little kids on the playground who are just already doing this thing. I'm a big boy. I don't need this. I don't know. Because when they show that, if you really look at how people learn, they learn to avoid pain, that's pain, to get shamed or shamed in some way, and to gain pleasure. It's more important to avoid pain than gain pleasure as it turns out. So we're talking super early. And that's what happens with looking at male relationships. They wanted to super connected, they hold their friends, and they told them it's gay, they told your boy to want to love your friends and things. It's crazy. And so we see the crisis of connection really beginning three, four years old. And you can see these boys, Naomi Wei has written about this. There's a lot of research, Judy Chu. There's a lot of research out here about how these boys really become armored, defended, again, more vulnerable feelings. And the problem is that it is through vulnerability, it's through our humaneness, that we are able to connect with other people. And by saying, I'm not like that, I don't feel fear. I don't feel sadness. It's basically like, I don't feel. You don't feel those things. You don't feel, but I feel anger, because anger is a preferred and acceptable male emotion, preventive novel. But it is what leads us to feel isolated. And we can go into the statistics about what's happening with boys and men, but it's an ugly picture of what's emerging out there. And it's very sad and it's preventable. So a few weeks ago, I had Dr. Zach Seidler from November, who I know you know in person lay on the show. And one of the most startling statistics he brought up since we were talking about men's isolation is that from what he shared, and you shared with me one out of seven men today have no close friends, no single best friend in that, to me is extremely alarming. Do you think that number is potentially understated? Yes. I do. I mean, so when I hear one out of seven, I think that's wrong. Frankly, I, and again, John, we really have to clarify what exactly a close friend means. Like what someone may call a close friend or someone who they go drinking with. So I don't have that in my definition as a close friend. I have a close friend or somebody who you can be intimate with. And I don't mean intimate in those kinds of sexuality. I think of intimacy as the phonetic of like into me seek so that you actually allow other people in this place, other guys to see into beauty, works and all. And so it is through that I have difficulty. I may have a different force potentially. I may lose a job. Life is challenging and everyone has difficulties. And we started looking underneath the surface. People suffer. People can enjoy it. It's all because I'm not, I don't want to paint a picture like everyone's just suffering and pain all the time. But pain is a part of life. And if you have to hide that all the time, that's a problem. And this is part of it leads guys into drug addiction and the fentanyl crisis, which hits many much more than women. But I don't know what the statistics are. But it's pretty significant to give me emails. Can you suicide it four times a rate as females? And so I don't think one or seven is accurate there. And again, it's definitional. What is a close friend? Yeah, I had what I consider two close friends who ended up taking their own lives. And I had been with them both days before the act happened. And the one gentleman, Tim, was this type of person, he was the guy who you call it two o'clock in the morning, three o'clock in the morning, eight o'clock in the morning, it didn't matter. He was always there for you. You could tell him anything. He wasn't judgmental. He was just a good, a really good friend. And what was really hard for me in that scenario is when he was hurting the most, he didn't bring it up to me, nor any of our other friends and felt that jumping off the equivalent of the Golden Gate Bridge here in Tampa was the way to deal with it. And then I had another really good friend, Vincent, who was a former NFL player, Pro Ball wide receiver, who I met with days before he took his own life. And he was telling me a little bit that he was having issues with his wife, but he didn't tell me that he was experiencing CTE and was having all kinds of ramifications. How do we get men to open up more? Because these are two scenarios where I think in both cases there was help that could have been given to these gentlemen had they just asked for it, but they never did. Well, first of all, I'm sorry, I didn't know that John. So I'm sorry to hear that because that's got to be incredibly painful for you. And what a hopeless or helpless feeling must have had afterward to feel like it was so close. Why did you talk to me? Like you said, that's exactly relation and pain of that is difficult because I've not lost any friends to suicide, but I have friends who have. So I've had conversations about that. So it's just a story of with that stuff. In terms of how to deal with it, this part of the early childhood condition, don't tell people, don't reveal that you're hurting. Keep it to yourself. Be stoic. My ex-elicism is fine, by the way. Sometimes it's misunderstood in these days, but if it's only to yourself not showing anything and withholding all that, that's a major problem. But I do think that in terms of how do we deal with this, it starts early in life and it starts with really that we give men the latitude to have an emotional life. Because absurdity you'd be talking like this, like you need that, but I think that's true. We're giving them, it's fine to be somebody who has difficulties in life and that a healthy approach to dealing with difficulties is compassion. And compassion is not something that has been seen as a particularly male trait. This is an area of looked at quite a lot in self-compassion for data about it. Like really, you're hurting, you buck up, grow a pair, a man up, all these lessons that guys learn, teach them to not speak about when they're really hurting like that. So you can imagine that your friends have this, like your first friend who is very open to hearing from you or other people about when you're in difficulty, but not so much for him. He had it going side to the equation, which is he knew, for him, was fine that other people could be hurting and he would be a good ear, before them, a good ear and a good heart, but not him. Like somehow he's left out of that dance. And why is that? What did he learn? I don't know the guy, obviously, I don't know his father was like, but he probably got these messages in his family, in his school, his church about the instrument, tough, stoic. And it takes residence, I have a term called psycho-osmosis, how we learn, how we absorb through the permeable membranes out of the brain, these messages, the culture and once inside, they take a residence and they become part of our character or characteristics. And so as much as some part of them were in one of the reasons, I said, John, I'm hurting, I need to talk, I mean, it's like, can't get me out. I was like, this is stopgap there. And this is part of the pain. I mean, far away I did for 40 years as I led weekly men's groups, where guys would come in and they would really talk about their lives, beauty works and all. And so we weren't just looking at what's wrong. It's like for people to credit for their accomplishments and their goodness and their decency. Yes, honor what's beautiful in you. And also to deal with and be open and transparent with where you're difficult, which goes against some cultural messages. And so the cultural messages are really powerful, frankly. I'm 72 years old and I've been at this sort of looking at the men's stuff, 47 years ago. A long time ago, I thought things would be very different right now than they are. It's a virus that seems to have a very persistent afterlife. Before we continue, I want to pause for a moment. Conversations like this often surface a quiet realization. Cultural script shape how we matter, but heart determines how we connect. Inside the ignited life, our sub stack, each episode in the UMatter series is paired with guided reflection crops designed to help you reclaim authenticity without rejecting strength or surrendering your voice. This week's prompts focus on noticing where man up has replaced openness, identifying performance, and clarifying how you show and receive mattering in your closest relationships. You can explore them all at the ignitedlife.net. As we move toward February 24th, I want to share something very close to my heart. My new children's book UMatter Luma launches that day. A story designed to help children understand intrinsic worth before the world teaches them to measure themselves by toughness or proof. You can now preorder UMatter Luma at Barnes & Noble. Your support helps bring this message of mattering to the next generation. Now a quick break from our sponsors. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. You're listening to PassionStruck on the PassionStruck Network. Now back to my conversation with Daniel Ellinberg. I just want to quantify Daniel something that you just said, and because you said you have facilitated men's groups for four decades. When I think about, that's well over 10,000 hours. That's a lot of time. From you observing these different men that you've interacted with, when do you find men finally stop performing? Because I think a lot of us are wearing a mask and start telling the truth. Great question. We look for others to show up. And I'm different. What would happen in groups is that guys would come in and they'd be watching. Like what are the rules? What can I say? Am I going to get tossed out if I show something? And you know that some part of them is there because they want to connect. There's no question that connecting is a cool motivation for being there. And then they'll watch somebody who's been in the group, they express something that's quite vulnerable and get supported and acknowledged for that. And you're watching this and going, wow, the rules here are different. I grew up with, if you show something like that, just pipe down, cut it off, keep it in. But actually here the principles and the rules are different. And so they feel like they're on a different planet, in a certain way, and observing it. And they see that when that somebody is vulnerable and has a courage to open their emotional component of service feet, that they're acknowledged for that and good on you and that they, at least toward a deeper connection. And that they have a sense of brotherhood and familiarity there that it's incentivizing to do that and it builds over time. And it also leads to being people being able to call each other. I don't like calling out that I like to kind of call in and like saying, I do, you're like being really reactive and distensive, but it's really going on here. And to me, that's part of the deal because on some level, we get back to mattering that when somebody is willing to in a heartful way be able to call someone out and say, I'm doing this because I care, not because I'm trying to shame you. That's very powerful. And it's saying to the other person, you matter. And I'm doing this because you matter. For some of us, I was thinking about John Wooden, the famous UCLA basketball coach, he was one 10 national championships in 12 years. And one of the things he said about a really good coach is a coach is someone who can give criticism without causing resentment. And in which I like, we need feedback. I know that the defended and reactive person I was, not that I don't have any defenses that we are doing certain still do, but who I was, I wouldn't be who I am without my brothers. And literally over the years, I've had people call me and say, Dan, come on, you're better than that. I'm feeling very emotional right now, I think, because in some way, I'm suffering from just observing what's going on in our country and the world. And it's just, it's not the love fest that I dream of. And I want men to be better. And it scares me, really, when I see some the young men who are going into the dark reaches of the internet and the atmosphere and learning these that somehow you have to control women and being charged to be dominant. This is not a world of relationship at all like that. And I'm really concerned about it, right, so this is part of my own journey right now is not leading men's groups and even what they're actually being more involved with trying to make a larger world difference. On that front, you've written a lot about transcending limited aspects of traditional male roles. And when I think of some of your contemporaries who are out there talking about this a lot, I immediately think Scott Galloway and Jonathan Hate, what do you think they're getting right? And then what parts of masculinity do you think are misunderstood beyond what they're talking about? Or do you think they have it all covered? Well, let's take Scott Galloway for first orders. I respect him. I don't know him personally. I have a great deal of respect for him. I think he's a street shooter and I think he's got a lot of things right. And he said that a lot of important messages. I'm not convinced about what guys need to do is provide protect and appropriate, which is a core message of his. I do believe in providing and protecting and I certainly procreate it. We're not going to have a species if we don't do that. But I think that there are others things that have to that are I would accent more the courage to be vulnerable. I think he is quite vulnerable himself and willing to be courageous. So I don't think there's anything that I would say that he would necessarily disagree with. But I think I'm my accent something more than others. In terms of Richard Reeves, I was wrote, become a household name for a lot of people these days and the writing of this. And I think that what he's doing is great. He's not a clinician, a therapist, a coach. He needs a researcher, which is great. But he's actually made the case that is really important to make about how guys are suffering. And we can walk in two double gun at the same time by helping boys and men when I'm hurting girls and women. And this is the area that drives me frankly the craziest. This binary thinking and I'm very frustrated by it. And why is it all this pushback about having services for boys and men these days, it's bizarre to me. And I think part of it has to do with a kind of binary thinking that if you're doing this for this, you're hurting this. It's like really if we're going to rise, we're going to rise together. And I think part of the problem is as I think about these little cartoons I saw years ago, these two guys here around a little little dingy and there's two holes in the back of the boat, they're on the front of the boat, they're on a buying of water. And one of them says to the other, thank God we're in the front of the boat. Well hello, then I'm going to help you. You may get a couple more minutes out of this, but that's not going to help. And that's part of my concern. And I'm part of what I'm becoming increasingly interested in is really how we bring men and women together. I'm excited about all the work that's going on with men and boys and work that's going on with girls and women. I'm not seeing men and women coming together and having the important conversations. There's still this kind of adversarial relationship. And there are a lot of women who they don't trust men. I have for many good reasons. I'm not saying that men have been lovely toward women quite contrary. And I'm going to I'm not trying to put all men into one category. But there's a lot of resistance from a good amount of women about getting services for boys and men. And I'm really keen to be as being involved with the Narvan Psychological Association and some of the things that are going on politically. Like why is there this resistance? Because I do think that there's a suspicion that when men get together, they're plotting against women. Now that may be true for some men. I'm not doubting that. Men are some of these guys who are just hate women, haters and they just want to dominate women and like what Nick D'Auente is, your body, my choice. Let's sec completely. But we really I think paid too much attention to these extreme voices on the left or right and not enough to all the people who want more clearly in cooperation and compassion. And because they don't the algorithms don't follow them. They're not as outrageous. That's good. Most of us want goodness in the world. We want positive relationships. We want love. We want safety. We want security. We don't want to hurt other people. But there are these extremes that get too much of the attention. And then everyone tends to think a lot of people in the family that must be the way it is. But it's really not the way it is. Back during Mother's Day, we have recently moved to a new area in Tampa Bay. So I was out to shopping for new churches trying to feel for one that best fit me. And I happened to go to this service on Mother's Day. And it was a really interesting talk that the pastor did. He welcomed all the families with kids one to three up on stage and they did a great ceremony. But then his message was completely directed at men in the room. And the room was overflowing this day. And he basically gave this message that we are outsourcing the role that we are supposed to be playing. Not only from a spiritual sense, but from a parenting sense, from a partner's sense. And he said it's like we think we're properly doing parental involvement when we drop our kids off to Sunday school, but then don't reinforce it any other day of the week. We do the same thing in our relationships where we think we're being a good husband or a good partner, but we're not showing up and playing our role. And we're creating a vacuum. Do you agree at all with what he has to say? Yes, but we say at all, I'd say yes. I think it's also important and this may be rather controversial from what I'm going to say but it's good. I think that there are a lot of women who don't want men to play more of a role. That a lot of women do want men to play more of a role. But I think it's important also recognize that there is a certain level of dominion that a lot of women have held in the heart and the home of being with the children that they relish and they may not trust their husband or other men around the children on some level, but they're not necessarily supportive of that. There are a lot of women who are. Again, I'm not a big broad, broad-stroke person. I don't put all women in one category, all men. People are different in ways. I do think a lot of men do grow up in general not learning about how to nurture, how to be there with their children in a way. And it's just not steeped in the land of relationship and that's part of what this pastor was speaking about. I agree with that. I think that is the problem and all I guys just need to, on some of get some basic education around how do you be a good father? How do you be a good man? And how do you actually show up for other people in a heartful and also a decisive way you mentioned my work with Spinaith and part of the difficulty I see in general in the world is that we teach to split these things all off like you eat a strong or you're kind. It's insane. Somehow, if you're strong but you show care that makes you weaker, really? Yeah. I don't think so at all. But this is part of the difficulties that we're seeing in general that I see that some of it's changing and some of it has to do with when athletes will come out and will show a tender side of themselves. And I do think that there's a lot of ways that guys in general can be an R compassionate that isn't recognized as that. I was remembering in the Olympics when the the gymnast team, one of the guys, I think they were five with them, one of them who is considered like the best the horse I think it was and he fell off of it and he was devastated. He was in the middle of your head between the legs and one of his teammates came up to him and they showed this and he put his arm around him. I just thought that was a beautiful moment of a shown compassion. Not all the time even football player somebody goes down everyone's there a kicker misses a field goal when placeholder put arm around them. Well, even recently when John Harball was let go by the Ravens, there've been a lot of reports that so many of the superstars on the team came into his office crying. I haven't heard that. Yes, showing the support that they had for them. So it's really powerful for me to see the symbolism of those types of acts because you don't see it very often these days. I don't know if you've ever seen it that often but I think you're seeing it more of these days and that's where I get heartened when I see guys being able to show that side of themselves which is really important and I think that because I don't know everything that this pastor said to go back to that for a moment but I think it's I think it's a powerful message she was given. Really, I just wouldn't want it to be a shaming message and I don't know how we did it in a way because you can call guys out in a way that shaming and calling them in a way that's supportive. I think what he was trying to say and a little bit of it was shaming the way he preached but I think what he was trying to say, you can't yourself ever feel like you're going to matter if you're absentee in making any of the loved ones around you feel like they matter and if you're absent being a husband, if you're absent, being the parent that your kids need, if you're absent being the spiritual head of the household, then what example are you setting by being an absentee person? I know for me personally that this was a difficult element when I became a parent because my father had a very difficult upbringing and my grandfather who I never met was physically abusive to my father. He was a very bad drunk and I think never showed my father how to parent and so when I was growing up and it was much better for my younger brother but for me many of the years he was an absent parent and he used to travel 23240 days a year during most of my upbringing and I realized as my son was one, two, three years old I was starting to follow into some of his patterns and it was very difficult for me to not only realize it but to correct it because we tend to gravitate towards the examples we're given and I didn't want to be that type of parent but it was very difficult to change that path. I'm so happy I have because both my kids are so much better as a result of it but I think that's what that pastor was trying to say. Okay that's totally fair. I'm curious how did you notice that you were starting to follow in the footsteps of your father in a way that didn't feel right? I think part of it was just in the emotions and the way that my son would show disappointment toward me and you could see it in subtle ways where he was pulling more and more away. I think if anyone isn't a parent and they have dogs but you probably see it in your pets when they come up to you and they want to be loved upon and you don't give them the attention that they want and they put their head between their tail and the way because you're not giving them the attention. I think kids give you the same type of subtle or not so subtle signals and I just remember hitting me and I had to be really mindful about what it became a completely different paradigm shift for me. If I want my son to grow up to be the man that I hope he becomes then the person he's looking at to learn that from is me so I need to be the example of what he sees and what I want him to become somewhere down the line and then it also becomes a conversation with their mother about the roles that we're going to be we're going to be playing meaning it can't always be the father who's the disciplinarian both of them have to play those roles or the child will never come to the person who's always doing the punishing and be vulnerable with them so it took us some give and take on all sides. Well I think it says something about you as a person and as a man that you were in touch enough with your emotions to be able to recognize that because I can imagine pretty sure you can of how many guys they're so conditioned to be hard and harsh and like just buck up kid and just close their hearts to their children in this case to their son that it wouldn't penetrate them in a way that would lead toward an attitudinal and behavioral change. So for you that wasn't the case so there was something either in your nature or something that allowed you to see that and to respond to that. Yeah and I'm not ever going to say I was a perfect parent and I had a very demanding career and there were times where that took too much precedence especially as I got more senior and I look back and there are definitely regrets I have especially as my kids were getting older and I was getting more senior that I'd like to have some doovers but I think that's why we're best positioned to try to help the people we once were so that's a big part of my message that I try to give out is I just did a solo episode that we stop building an architecture of success and start building an architecture of significance and that really starts with the connections that are closest to your heart. I don't know if you've ever come across the work of Dr. Stephen Post but he has this book called Pure Unlimited Love and I happen to talk to him and then I talk to Mark Kenepo and we both were talking about this topic of love and they both gave the same definition of what Unlimited Love really is and that is when you are about to close your eyes for the last time who are the people that you want to look at at that one last moment that you have and that's really a moment of Unlimited Love but I don't think we approach love in our lives with that intentionality so to speak. No but one thing if I may know here what I'm going to is that when I acknowledged you about that you saw that and you responded to that you were very quick to say well I could have been better and I was I wasn't perfect it wasn't like that I don't know how much you actually took in that you did do a lot and I'm saying that because I just see all the time that people is just a kind of much more of a focus on what you didn't do than what you did in a way and I think that it's important to take in the good right in this case and no one's perfect people screw up I have no belief in the word perfect at all I think it's a terrible word and I think people hold themselves to observe standards in a way and we all mess up the thing that really is most important in terms of parenting is when you mess up as a parent if you acknowledge it that working as a psychologist for as many decades as I do you tell you that the thing that drives people really up the wall is when the parent never admitted they were wrong never a politician I never said I yelled at you because actually I felt threatened at work when I was just totally stressed out and I took it on and I'm really sorry about that but that's the kind of stuff that with people feel like that wasn't fair but they also think like it's because of me that you are suffering and they take it on the children taking on in a way that it's all their fault and I'm a believer in just taking responsibility for okay you screw it up I know you do that so I'm sure you're not in that camp I'm talking about and all but it's also the importance of zix's knowledge and that yes there's goodness and I was a much better father than my father was right and take that in yeah it's because I do think this whole topic we're talking about masculinity is a generational and the gap is widening because as I guess masculinity starts to fade generationally the gap keeps getting bigger and bigger and so that's why I think in a lot of ways it's becoming harder to close and it's so interesting to me to see the disconnection that men are also having from pursuing education purpose and community and what happens psychologically when men lose viable pathways to meaning? Great question nothing good that's for sure if you think about some of the prime drivers of life purpose meaning is way up there in there and this part of the problem with a lot of young guys is that they don't have a sense of purpose or meaning what's the point? I mean look at the world and this is really the first time in American history for sure where the next generation has less prospects than the one before and maybe the one before that so it's always been oh well my child and my children are going to have it easier than I had it well now it's actually quite not like that but it's if you have a college degree there's no guarantee of anything if you don't have a college degree as a guy or the prospects are awful I have a colleague who is researching men who don't have college degrees and it's a pretty bleak situation and reality is that women most people are heterosexual women are looking for guys who are up with immobile on some level who actually can create resources and it's not going to just fall on them or they want support and understandably and if the possibilities are not out there to be successful it's a bad thing this is part of what's leading to this malaise and this the manosphere type stuff and the fentanyl overdoses and this guess best of the spam suicide all that kind of stuff it's it's a crisis of meaning a crisis of purpose there and so I don't know really what the way out is certainly there's got to be more kind social support and I'm not thrilled with some of the attitudes in the United States around everyone's got to pull themselves up by the bootstrap and like we shouldn't have social support for no not at all but I do think that it's all in a particular education there's just not a lot of enough focus on how do you create a life of meaning do you remember John when you were in elementary school middle school or high school when I think yeah let's of course on how to create a sense of purpose and meaning in life yeah a children's version of start with why like exactly and so what if I were to be able to do that throw all the cards down the ground and pick up the deck in a way that's quite different than it is it I make a lot of changes of education is one of those major areas where we're not educating people well enough because if you think about education as preparation for living or falling and good and decent life we're not doing a good job and certainly that's the case with guys who are just not oriented to its school we're not getting really go off I know we don't have time for this today but there's there are so many problems with how with schools and education I think about it in terms of the etymology there's a one one part of education so it's a edicare which is to put in from without it's important knowledge to and that's generally what we see in our educational systems and then put this into you and sometimes it's going to be a residence and you're going to be fine with that but the other part is edicare which is to draw out from within we don't do that at all that's like completely absent from education and how do you help people bring out what is within them there's a Paul the Apostle was quoted in the crunosa this is true or not there was like if you bring forth what is within you what you bring forth will save you if you do not bring forth what is within you what you do not bring forth will destroy you and I think that's really part of our four words yes but they the powerful words they are they aren't and I think about even the sense of mattering or purposely like people have within them this creative impulse boys girl just it's it wants to create and we can look in the world and a lot of things incredible things have been created by human beings and the question about that but I think each individual has something that wants to come out and wants to flourish wants to thrive and needs the proper environment to nurture and help vitalize that which wants to come forth and I don't think we're doing a very good job at creating those types of containers and context for that and I think that we need to really have more groups more education around how do you actually nurture and support your own creative impulses yeah I I think that's a good line of thinking Daniel because what I think about all the time is when men don't feel that they're needed and they don't know that they matter they don't get that reciprocity felt back to them then they replace it with all kinds of things that are causing them to to feel numb and apathetic and unseen and I think that's one of the biggest contagions that we're dealing with in the world right now 100% exactly as you put it well why do you think these some I want to talk about social media and types of people that to men are gravitating towards for these people who've lost that gap why do these simplistic online identities that focus on like the hyper dominance grievance contempt feel so appealing to these men who are struggling it's certain it's it's it's certainty this is what you do this is how you do it this guy's kind of cross as hyper confident never in doubt never wrong they know what's going on and they don't tell you exactly what you need to do and just put on your big boy pants and just go out and do it and you'll be a confident secure successful man on the one hand that you guys want to be confident secure and successful that's appealing but certainty is absurd and we always have to deal with ambiguity and complexity and the challenges that you're not really sure what to do at a certain point to acknowledge you're not sure right that doesn't mean you're insecure or that you're weak it means that you're actually seeing that there are so many circumstances that are you're just not sure about so if you can actually so I to learn and listen to yourself more and go inward and feel what feels right a kind of intuition there that is something that is only generated from within obviously you're going to be taking in ever resources and you want to talk to other people and listen to open to feedback right because that's part of how we populate our inner world is through the outer world and begin with that ongoing dynamic between inner and outer these guys on the internet are just telling you just do this and you got have a time and that's appealing and wouldn't that be nice if we're that simple just do ab and c and everything will be fine but it turns out that it's not what is it though you said for every complex problem there's a solution that's simple neat and wrong and that's part of the difficulty is that we're living in an increasingly complex world and people know what to do it's freaking scary but it's destabilizing and we're living in an increasingly destabilized and destabilizing world and simple solutions there are lovely ideas and just be tough be strong we're going to go back to that there's something that's appealing about that and women want much more from them and now than they used to and we've been ready for buying protector for creator as many times in history that worked maybe that's the way we're fine because that's where we were from our evolutionary history but that's not what we are right now yeah it's a very different world and it's very confusing well I think that we need to really be much more focused on how to develop self-knowledge or self's knowledge as it worked because of different aspects of ourselves and be able to draw on that inner world and to be able to have groups of people who you can actually talk with and explore with and when you think about that I see the world so differently now than I used to and not because I've come up with any great insights myself some perhaps but most of it's been to the learning from other people and being open you know to that I know that for you in your podcast and in your work you're teaching people you're giving people opportunities to learn more about themselves and to really find a way to create a life of mattering because you come to realize and I don't agree with you on this that if people don't believe that they matter nothing else matters all right well I started to look at so many of what I'm now calling the symptoms that we're naming in society the loneliness epidemic people feeling burned out people feeling hopeless wherever it is all of those when I started to look at it they all connect back to the feeling of anti-matter yeah and that's why these things are happening so so that's why this is so important to me because you've got to fix the human operating system to get this back in place because it's we're systematically from the time our kids enter school to how social media operates today to how the workforce operates we're systematically taking bits of mattering away from people over the course of years and it's like a dystemia you don't realize that you're depressed because it's happening so gradually that over time you reach a hockey stick where before you know it you're experiencing severe depression but it's happened over such a long period of time same thing with burnout that when it finally hits you you don't realize all the micromumins that have occurred that lead up to it and that's exactly what I think is happening the frog doesn't realize it's being boiled yeah exactly and so I agree to completely if you think about mattering you want to talk a little bit about this and I know you spoke with my wife about it it's really the territory of significance and significance and mattering are basically the same and when you think about early childhood development that little being incomes into the world of trouble with roster of nothing's yeah we're gonna run a little bit I don't know what you can't like really orient and so and they have to learn some how that date matter they matter enough that people care about them they're giving them they're giving resources they're attending to them they when you kick comes up and grab a sheep by the don't bother me now I'm doing work right that's a statement that you don't matter but I'm giving is more important you're not important because underneath mattering significance is something you're important like you you deserve to exist and so many people they go through their entire lives and feel like they I'm deserve to be here and that's important and it's like how do you show people that they matter and part of my always concerns because you know where other people just don't walk past and don't acknowledge don't like it's like it's a sad state of affairs but again it really has to do with you did part of the problem or you part of the solution and to be someone who gets out there and says you know what I'm gonna show other people that they matter right I'm gonna be a kind of person who acknowledges other people and holds them to certain standards and tries to acknowledge that they at a minimum deserve to exist that they're not someone just to ignore or disregard or just shine or push off to the side but it's about how do we expand to include other people rather than how do we contract to exclude them? I couldn't agree more. I want to before we have to end I want to talk about strength with heart a little bit because I know this is an air and dear to your heart and I'm gonna bring Mark Nipo up again because in my interview with him we were exploring his new book the fifth season but I we've probably spent a good ten minutes of him talking about why he feels that the most critical thing we need to do and what life has told him is we need to live with an open heart which I thought tied directly into a lot of your message and I know that you really challenged the false to binary that men must choose between strength and compassion. Why do you think that framing is so damaging and what does real strength look like when it's fully integrated with heart? You leave the small questions for the last ones right? Like we built up to this. That's great. Well I'm gonna get political for a second probably with some level of camaraderie but I can't help myself. So I think about politically how on the left side of famous which seems like I'm on the right I'm looking at this. It's like guys are being told that the strength is bad. It's like associated with power over in dominance and so the best thing guys can be is not an asshole you know and be an ally to women and just be nice kind of thing because it's seen as like the male side of power is always leads to a domination and just tamp it down and I see this in more liberal corners and I'm not a fan of that mentality and then on the right side it's just be strongly tough. There's nothing wrong with you to go perfectly fine and just they're just shaming you on the left and there is some shaming up on the left so I'm not doubting that but I don't think that the answer either there needs to be some integration of strength and heart where you're actually your backbone. It doesn't mean by the way that if you're heartful you know that somehow you are a pushover or that you always give people what they want or that you always are a lackey in some kind of way. It means that you are you have a sense of direction purpose right but if I do leadership work and so I don't think a good leader is someone who just rovers stamps with somebody else thinks and feels at all not in the least you have to have a sense of your north star and where you want to go and how do you lead in a way where you're supporting people to step up on the one hand and go for what feels right and be open to feedback and so I think that if you're strong and heartful you're you have a sense of direction you have a sense of purpose you have a sense of inner strength and you're flexible enough to know that you can shift your opinions if the facts change. I think about teams that are economists who say I believe in changing my opinion when the facts change. What do you do sir? Because a lot because some people have this idea of best strength is that you just hold your guns no matter what. The reality is that you do in a complex world you don't have enough information all the time at all and so something else comes in and you're flexible enough and you're fluid enough to be able to shift with that new information. There's an old saying that the bamboo is stronger than the oak that the bamboo it maintains its integrity but it can move with when circumstances change. I have a lot of oak some of my probably, I'm oak so lovely and everything but to take. They don't move and I think a lot of guys learn that strength is being immovable but that's not I don't think that's true. I think they have the strongest people or people who can have it the center they have a sense of their own core they have a belief in themselves and they're willing to shift when someone has given them a different way of orienting where they go. You know what I was seeing it this way but that actually makes sense you know because they're actually in touch with a more emotional part of themselves and I think that guys who are only tight they're pushovers in a way they're very reactive they're ready to fight or they're ready to hold it around in a way but what are they actually holding? They're really holding onto their egos when the ego is very fragile. Self with a capital S is much stronger and that is something that is not predicated on being right and always being in control but actually is really seeing the bigger picture and is really a part of life of not trying to stand out as Mr. Dominance know there that actually is able to be fluid and we see psychological flexibility being able to be shifting it doesn't mean not having a center it doesn't mean being a pushover it means being open open the feedback and that's part of what creates relationship that kind of open this where okay I feel you when I can I'm going to shift based on what you're saying and how I'm experiencing you and so I know that by work with men when I look at the strength of the heart I'm always thinking you can add your grounds they're important that you have your ground and there are ways of really working with that that allow you to become a more expanded and really a more powerful and clear person by being open Daniel I thought I would tell you after I put some thought to it what strength means to me because I think it coincides with many of the things that you just said to me strength without heart equals control and heart without strength equals collapse so when I think about strength with heart it equals regulated power and service of connection it means boundaries and compassion agency and vulnerability and leadership that stabilizes instead of trying to dominate that's on that I'm gonna have to get this I really like that we put that John yeah because I think what you said about opens strength with heart is the ability to stay open without becoming unprotected in in many ways what if there were nothing to defend yes exactly which is not to say that there aren't things to defend I'm not saying that having defenses is bare or wrong it's appropriate at times but if a lot of times people go through lives always being defended right and so there's this whole territory of safety versus threat frame to foe you're always in foe this is a foe it could be a potential foe this is a potential threat and so there armor all the time and when you armor all the time there's no flow there's really ultimately no connection now I'm gonna be doing a whole nine month course on strength with heart for guys coming up at the end of the year and we're really focused on all the different we have nine different guideposts strength with heart which are nothing that you should do but the things that if you live by these particular ways of orienting life tends to go better I see a lot of guys who are strong and heartful but I don't think on a larger cultural level it exists up there part of my own sense of mission is how do we actually change the paradigm guys because the paradigm is of really what's most important in terms of our maps and our lenses in terms of seeing an apprehend in the world and we really need something new and different because we're at a point on this planet where I think we're either going to destroy ourselves or we're going to reorganize at a higher level of complexity the jury's out right now and hopefully with your work john and putting your work in the world and what I'm doing a lot of other people are doing are you going to go on and on a lot of people who see the need for this new paradigm that we need to birth this new paradigm in order to at a minimum survive but certainly to thrive Daniel I have two last questions for you for a man who's stayed with us this far in the conversation listening who recognizes himself and the strength at all cost model what's one small non-threatening shift that can begin real change for him find someone and talk about your how you feel strong in yourself and how you doubt yourself be more open take more risks we tend to see courage courage is actually one of the strength with heart diposts tend to see courage as the willingness to run into a burning building which it is courage I'm not doubting that but there's a courage that I don't think people tend to think about which I call interpersonal courage which is the willingness to be to share beauty works and all about yourself it's openly as possible with at least one other person ideally in groups but certainly one other person is part of why people are going to go into counseling or coaching in some way that they can disclose to others and the turns out that willingness to disclose to others is actually part of what leads people to develop more self-awareness and self-awareness is deeply connected to leadership and positive relationships it's actually one of our guidebooks also is awareness or noticing and so I would say go out take some interpersonal risks and have the belief in yourself that even if it doesn't go well you're going to survive this is it's not a survival issue for you but you need to do this in order to bring your insight into the world and the way you bring your insights into the world is through relationships with other people so that's one thing I would say and I think another is that the willingness to look into yourself and to recognize that you have strengths also I think part of the reason why I was sitting when I said to you earlier about hey that's cool that you essentially were big to be a good father in that regard and saying well it wasn't perfect back kind of thing I wanted you and this isn't like this is commons I'm not trying to call you out at all from this is to say yes I do have strengths and I have done good things I think a lot of times people are just so miserably with themselves around just acknowledging what is what's cool about them and what's good you know so if this is not about taking some self-inventory about all the horrible things and everything like that it's not what we're talking about it we're talking about being a measure about this and being judicious and being in the sense that this is these are positive things about me these are not so positive things about me what can I do to make a difference and it turns out that one of the best things you can do is to be in relationships with other people in a very in an open and transparent way but finding the right people to do that with and sometimes you trust someone and you're wrong but that's the courage part you know and you go like how do I learn from this and have a course program that didn't work but don't give up I've seen so many people I've talked to somebody once and he changed me and I'm never going to do it again come on seriously you're going to give up that easily no don't do that don't do that stand up for yourself and stand in yourself and just go I'm going to keep pushing forward no matter what and not don't give up thank you for that Daniel and I had this last question if you had the opportunity to redefine masculinity in a single sentence for the next generation of boys what would you want them to know about strength heart and who they're allowed to be I would want them to be more interested in being a whole and integrated person than to be seen as masculine I don't it's interesting this wouldn't masculine or something I've done to kind of imagine how much time I've spent thinking about this toxic masculinity or healthy masculinity I'm masculine I hear it all the time and as a part of me it goes I wish we didn't even have the word I got wish that weren't even that didn't exist like guys didn't have to prove something about masculine you're masculine whatever that means it's fine see part of the difficulty is that there are words that are considered to be or traits that can be masculine independent tough strong take note these are masculine traits feminine traits are nurturing and kind and compassionate and being able to list and so that's part of the problem is that we call these traits masculine or feminine and I don't think that's healthy I think that really what I want to see is a world where women can have the same all those traits it can be aggressive they can be confident they can be things that are seen as masculine men can be nurturing and kind and compassionate and to think and be in a way their ways are seen as feminine and so I would want to really deconstruct it from the beginning and question is it you're trying to be masculine I know from my feel male whatever that means I don't feel I'm a guy I've always been very guy-ish whatever that means in a certain way I like sports I think when I like sports too right so I don't think that we limit ourselves by trying to fit ourselves into these little boxes that are called masculine or feminine or this or that and so I want to I'm going to defend a world if people can be more expansive so I mean that answers your question in a way that you're looking for but that's how I would see it oh Daniel I'd love to have you here today for people who want to learn more about what we've been talking about where are the best places for them to learn more about you and your work well you could write strengthwithheart.com and there's also for my leadership work there's rewire leadership.com and my email is you can Daniel at rewire leadership.com and we will be having some different workshops coming out around this for guys but I will tell you part of it my newer inspiration is to really bring men and women together and have more meaningful conversations because I am heartened by all the work that's going on with boys and men these days I'm starting to feel like it's a crowded field in a way which is great but I'm what is a very uncrowded field is it's really bringing men and women together and I think we really need to be doing that more part of my kind of newer thinking and I have a partner who was actually one of the founders of men living which is a great organization for men it's really about bringing men and women together to have these meaningful conversations which I think we need to do now the other thing is I'll send you information if you do contact me at the free conference we have coming up June 12th which is called Young Guys Thrive which is going to be focused on how we help young guys thrive and not just get by and really look at the challenges and the opportunities for young guys these days because they're the future right and we're going to have a paradigm shift you think I'd be farther big time so I'm hoping that in my old age I can help inspire them to aspire to be better and to be strong and heartful men as you are John and I want to just acknowledge you for the work you're doing and the heart and the strength that you show in doing this because I know it's not easy all the time but to keep doing this and doing this work and to be putting out your good work in the world it's good for you so thank you for being you and doing the work you're doing in the world thank you so much Daniel it was such an honor to have you today and I hope you have a wonderful weekend ahead of you thank you that brings us to the close of today's conversation with Daniel Ellenberg if this episode stayed with you it's likely because it touched something familiar navigating a world that demands proof of strength while quietly wondering where your full humanity fits here are three reflections you might carry forward first strength without heart equals control heart without strength equals collapse real power lives in their integration regulated open and in service of connection second mattering is signaled through vulnerability the people and cultures around us communicate significance through whose pain is allowed to be seen and who's ashamed into silence and third authenticity restores agency presence returns the moment we stop performing and start showing up beauty warts doubts and all in the relationships that matter most Daniel said it plainly if the only way that you can matter is to prove your masculinity that's ultimately the most exposed you can be today is an invitation to lay that proof down if this conversation stirred something in you maybe a memory of a friend who never asked for help or a moment you held back your own pain share this episode with one man in your life who might need to hear it a brother a son a colleague or even yourself sometimes the simplest act of mattering is saying I see you and I'm here to continue the work visit the ignited life.net for episode reflections watch the full conversations on youtube at john r miles or passion struck clips and explore intention driven apparel at start mattering.com and our next episode we go even deeper into that instinct with philosopher Rebecca newberg a goldstein and her new book the mattering instinct exploring why the longing to matter maybe is fundamental to being human as reason itself we are so different by temperament belief systems value systems culture or talents our passions and that individuality all goes into how we respond to this shared motivation that we have deep motivation that shapes our lives and we none of us want to waste our life we want to respond in the right way to this instinct and we all make the distinction that there are right ways and wrong ways and we want to end up piezing this longing and answering the question do I really matter that motivates all this until then remember you matter not because of what you prove but because of who you already are your hard counts your full self belongs and the people who need your real presence most are waiting for exactly that I'm john miles and you've been passion struck