How to reduce farm antibiotic use

Hello, welcome to Farmgate. I'm Finn Locustain, the editor of 8.9.com Antibiotics are critical medicines for humans and livestock, but profligate use has led to rapidly increasing resistance, which is a threat to animal and human health. How then do we replace, reduce and refine the use of antibiotics in farm settings? To investigate the subject, I'm joined by two Southwest dairy farmers, Sophie Alexander from Hemsworth Farm and Carolina Klaskova from Hyomir Park Farm, and by two livestock vets, Rebecca Price and Lucy Hepworth, both from Friarsmoor Livestock Health. Welcome all. Becca, let's get straight into it and perhaps you could help me with the basics. What are antibiotics? What are they for?

0:05

Antibiotics are a class of drug which are designed to kill bacteria. So on farm that could be any kind of bacterial infection from sort of a foot infection or calf pneumonia. There are a few different groups of antibiotics. So they all act in slightly different ways against different types of bacteria. All fall under that umbrella term.

0:45

And why are we talking about them? What's the issue?

1:05

So the main issue is that we are sort of limited in the amount of antibiotics that we have, and we use the same antibiotics for human health as we do for animal health because there are only a few classes of them. And the rate of discovery or synthesis of new antibiotics is slowing. The concern is that use and overuse historically is sort of going to lead the way to an antibiotic resistance. So resistance occurs when the efficacy of the drug is reduced. So rather than the drug killing 100% of the bacteria due to genetic mutation of the bacteria themselves, it kills less and less of them. And then as these resistant bacteria sort of increase in proportion of the population because they're not killed off, eventually we lead the way to there being completely resistant populations. So then we come into the problem of having bacteria that we can't kill at all. And some of the bacteria out there, such as the MRSA that we have in human hospitals, is resistant to multiple different types of antibiotics. In terms of livestock, because there is that interplay in the food producing animals, we're concerned that there's going to be a spillover of this resistance from animal health into human health. And because we are not expecting to have many new antibiotics in the future, this could be a concern that we're going to breed these superbugs, these super bacteria that we're going to struggle to kill.

1:08

So just to take it to a sort of worst case scenario, we're saying that if there is resistance at that sort of high level in the future, Then potentially, essentially, the antibiotics we've got have stopped working at the same time, we haven't discovered enough new antibiotics. And so effectively, we could be almost back to a kind of Victorian situation in terms of our ability to fight bacterial infections.

2:24

Yeah, I suppose that's it. We've got different options at the moment, but because some antibiotics don't work for some bacteria anyway, the more strains that they become resistant to, the less options we've got for treating them. And, yes, we may end up with bacteria that we struggle to kill in the future.

2:45

Sophie, could you tell me, obviously, because we've got vets on that are going to help us with, you know, some of the details around the way that these drugs are used and what they're for. But of course, we've got you and Carolina to talk about your farm and the way that you farm, the way that antibiotics are involved in there. So could we start just with you telling us about your farm, where it is, how many acres, what you produce, that sort of thing.

3:00

So Hemsworth is on the edge of the Cranbourne Chase, on chalky downland. It's approximately 1200 acres. It's an organic farm, has been for quite a long time, at least 14 years. Most of the land we keep converting. Some the livestock are integrated into the arable rotation. So the dairy herd graze for four or five years and then we have a couple of years of crops. One goes for milling oats, porridge, white soaps and the rest we mill ourselves as the dairy ration.

3:23

So effectively you're a dairy farm, but you're producing cereal as well to sort of contribute to that dairy system?

3:57

Yes, and also the dairy obviously contributes a great deal to the fertility and soil sort of rehabilitation.

4:04

And you wanted, as I understand it, to establish your herd in the first place with a high health status. What does that mean and how have you worked to maintain or create that approach?

4:11

The dairy herd is only going in into its sixth lactation now, so we brought in bulling heifers. Everything was the same age and we made the decision to bring them in from Sweden. They're a crossbreed called Viking Red, so they're a heterogeneous mix with the health traits that go with that. And the reason was that starting from scratch, it seems sensible to start with as few problems as we could. Scandinavia has always been very good at their biosecurity and health monitoring. Doesn't mean we haven't since had Jonas tb, but we don't have ibr, bvd Lepto and It eased the management in the first two years to get going. We had a very thin labor force and it just meant we weren't coping with imported problems at the start.

4:22

It's a long way to go for a cattle breed. Weren't there any breeds around in the UK that you thought would do as good a job? Because obviously there's sort of two elements to the way that you've talked about that you've gone out because there's sort of high health standards and that sort of thing in Scandinavia. But you've also gone for a particular breed.

5:17

Yes. So at the time there was a great deal of discussion about the problem of finding a use and a home for bull calves if they were crossed with Jersey. So ours is a very extensive grazing system. The cattle are out 24,7. We have no winter housing. So Jersey's cross safe region would have been a natural choice. But we wanted to go some with something that would produce a better beef animal. And also I felt that we were very likely to bring in TB and Jonas at the start. We have subsequently had both. But also you could argue that bringing them over from Scandinavia, they were naive to some of the diseases over here. And we've had outbreaks for instance of Redwater.

5:38

So they didn't have a sort of natural resistance to diseases that that breed hadn't encountered?

6:26

Yeah, you could say that. Since then, our own replacements are exposed to the tick and I think our resistance is improving.

6:31

And thinking about the antibiotics issue, you know, in particular, why is this important for farm business responsibility do farmers have in helping to slow the rise of antibiotic resistance?

6:40

Well, it's obviously desirable from a global point of view. I think that farmers obviously have to contend with their vanishingly small margins. So I'm not sure it's just the responsibility of the farmer to minimise antibiotics. But I think there are side effects of antibiotics. I think if you can avoid them and obviously the vets will have more to say about this. But I think animals benefit from not being pumped with antibiotics. We know from a human point of view it affects our guts. Cows rely on their stomach microflora. And from an organic point of view, it is expensive to administer antibiotics or indeed any medicines because the withdrawal period is double what it is in non organic systems. So the knock on effect of, you know, animals not being ready, able to milk them, you know, if it's a week in a non organic system, it's two weeks in an organic system. So it has knock on costs. It might be fairly inexpensive to administer, but it has knock on consequences and that's expensive.

6:53

Just picking up on that issue, Becca, that Sophie raised there, obviously there is a, you know, there's a function of antibiotics, they're there for a reason. But what about those side effects? Do you often see side effects in farm animals?

8:02

You can do. And I think probably the biggest side effect we would see would just be lack of efficacy, where the drug isn't having the desired effect, isn't treating the infection adequately. And I think coming back to those different classes of antibiotics we've seen, sometimes it is just that the antibiotic is not the correct one for the bug, which is there. And I think like Sophie was saying, repeated use. Yes, could disturb the gut flora. And I suppose we probably see that more in calves as more susceptible animals. And I think there's a lot more research into that sort of ongoing at the moment about the effects that that has.

8:15

And Sophie also sort of talked about the fact that it's not just the farmer's responsibility, that there are other parts of society. And obviously, you know, if we look across at humans, there's a big effort to get gps, for example, just to not prescribe antibiotics at the first drop of a hat, and that patients need to recognise that antibiotic resistance is a challenge as well. But thinking about it from a veterinary perspective, what's the role of the pharm vet in tackling resistance towards antibiot?

8:48

So I think it's really about making sure that when antibiotics are needed that we're using the correct ones. By that we need to make sure that it's the right class, it's going to have the maximum efficacy and sort of the lowest impact on human health. So the European Medical association ema, they categorize the antibiotics based on how important they are to human health. And there's a real push to make sure that we're using those sort of low impact ones as much as possible, rather than jumping for some of the higher classes. So there's no such thing really as a more powerful antibiotic, but there are some that we would choose to use the second line rather than first line. So that might be in the form of testing, carrying out some culture and sensitivity and making sure that we're using the most appropriate one. I think more holistically as well. We sort of got to think about how we can reduce the presence of the disease on the farm. So vaccine strategies, identifying which diseases are there, preventing the problem before it becomes a problem, and then thinking about the infrastructure on the farm. Can changes be made to the calf shed to increase the ventilation, decrease amount of stagnant air, decrease the pneumonia. So what can we change on the farm to prevent the disease? Prevent the buildup of the bacteria prior to actually needing to treat a sick animal.

9:15

Brilliant. We'll talk more about management later on because obviously as you say, that's a key thing. There's a degree to which a vet can try and prescribe antibiotics less, but at the same time you're reliant on that change in management in order to sort of establish situations where the antibiotics are less necessary. So Carolina, I wonder if you know, let's introduce you, if you could tell me about your farm and how many acres, herd makeup, what you produce, that sort of thing.

10:28

So we are a dutchy tenanted farm with my partner Tom being the third generation tenant here. We farm about 427 acres at home with 100 acres of herbalized on a grazing agreement with a local arable farmer. That's used for predominantly our young stock and outwittering of the young stock. We are a spring block. So we calve all our cows in a tight block in the spring. With just over 50% of our cows calfed in the first three weeks. So a lot of pressure on infrastructure. We have on average around 320 crossbred cows. We have the ideal, like Sophie said, ideal Jersey Friesian cross with also a little bit of actually Norwegian red. And we calves them, as I say, all in the spring. Our system is based on similar to Sophie's is based on grazed grass. We maximize the proportion of graze grass in our cow's diet. But we are on a heavy clay here. So although our young stock is outwinted on the arable chalk free draining land, we down on our farm we winter all our cattle in and calf indoors. Our main breeding criteria for our cattle is hybrid vigor. So helps the crossbreeding. And the main criteria following on is the cow health, fertility and milk solids.

10:53

If I can just interrupt you for a second because I mean, I think you know, a lot of people listening will understand the notion of spring block calving or autumn block calving. But there will be those who don't. What is the advantage of a spring block carving versus year round or versus autumn block carving?

12:21

The advantage of block carving compared to all year round car is that you put it simply, you manage the whole herd as one cow, you simplify and you concentrate on one job at a time during the year. On paper it comes with labor and capital productivity. Really high productivity in the ideally and lower cost not always. And the Benefit of spring calving in our situation is that the cows all calve in the early spring and they are in their peak production when the grass is in the peak growth. So the milk lactation curves mimics the grass growth curve and that helps us to maximize our milk production from the graze grass.

12:36

Fantastic. I interrupted you. Please do carry on.

13:19

No, I was only going to say. So the ethos of our farm, therefore, is very simple. As happy cows and happy people. That's how we always run it, really. We keep all our calves and the surplus calves so we don't sell our beef cross calves or bull calves. We keep all our 320 or so calves, we keep our heifer replacements who join back into the herd. And then all our surplus calves and beef grass calves are then kept via a joint venture agreement with an arable estate in Dorset, where they are all reared to heavy stores. And we also have a little suckler herd there with our favorites. And that system is really a regenerative system which is integrating cattle back to arable to improve soil, organic matter, general biodiversity and so on. And the cattle out there are out 365 days a year as well.

13:22

And that, I guess brings me on to the next question, which is about where your milk goes. So you're part of the Naturally Better dairy group with Yo Valley and First Milk. What is that and how does that support your approach to dairy farming?

14:17

The Yo Valley Naturally Better. It's a milk buying contract, really. From our point of view, it's very much a regenerative farming ethos. Talking about the antibiotics. Reducing antibiotics is one of the key requirements on this contract, along with others, like reducing artificial imports in general, reducing the use of anthelmintics like wormers. And so we don't regularly worm our young stock, only when there is evidence, like you doing a fecal egg count with a microscope, which we've been trained on kindly by our vets. And so other requirements, such as reducing greenhouse gases, there is a very comprehensive list of these requirements that you are scored on by the milk buyer and then you are paid a bonus based on your score. So how well you score on all these different requirements, you are then paid accordingly, if that makes sense.

14:29

Yeah, absolutely. That was the question I was going to ask you, was about whether there was a financial advantage to doing this. And of course, you know, that comes back to, you know, where responsibility for responsible farming lies in the supply chain, whether it's the farmer, whether it's the vet, and here you've got the milk buyer that's taking responsibility for that as well and rewarding farmers for farming in that way by reducing antibiotics, reducing the use of wormers. So that's sort of critically important when, you know, when obviously farmgate prices are really critical and at the moment particularly challenging in dairy. So in terms of antibiotics, I know that your farm has been on quite a journey and I think this was, you know, in the days before you took it over when your father in law was using routine antibiotics for dry cow therapy and where you are now, which is just sort of using antibiotics as a more last resort treatment. Can you tell me about that change? What motivated you, whether it was that contract or whether you know you were doing this before you got into that contract and how you've managed that change?

15:28

Yes, well we've, we've only actually, just to clarify all actually just started supplying the naturally better. We were supplying a lovely little local dairy which we're very fond of that was taken on by first milk and hence now we're supplying the naturally better. But we, Tom and myself always strive to, to, to reduce our antibiotic uses or use it as a last, being mindful of the fact that obviously antibiotics are very important to the man and obese and we really do not want to be putting more pressure on the resistance issue from what we're doing on the farm. So we've always been, you know, keen to, as soon as we're taken on the farm to move forward to selective dry cow therapy. And our father in law, Tom's dad, has always, you know, been quite careful with antibiotics use anyway really. But we've then sort of helped manage to reduce it further by. One of the key things I find is it's good stockmanship. I'm very, very lucky that my partner Tom is incredible stockman who knows his herd inside out and you know, he can spot the poorly cow even before she knows she's poorly herself. So that, you know, that goes a long way and you can replace that with anything. But obviously we've got a lot more cows now so we rely more on technology as well to help us with identifying issues early and really using which I can't stress the importance of it enough is pain relief anti inflammatory. So the use of non steroidal anti inflammatory drugs like Metacam and Ketofen in our cattle and catching up the problem early and understanding what the issue is. So when we take it on the farm in 2017 we straightaway employed the selective dry cow therapy and went on to try to build a really healthy high herd health herd. So we started testing for all the main diseases. We are high herd health now with BBD LeptoIBR. We have some yonis, but managing to reduce that to a low level. But we have issues, of course, like any other farm. Our antibiotic use currently is 4.9 milligrams per population corrected unit, I think, which is about two and a half times lower than the industry average, which is great. However, in 2024, we had a major spike in antibiotics use and that was due to the fact that half of our calf crop that year was affected by pneumonia to one degree or another, which was just terrifying for everyone. We managed to learn from that and understand what was underneath that problem. And we have made quite a lot of different management changes that might include not using transition milk, which was very, very difficult because we are using that. So transitional milk is milk. The first milking from a cow is called the colostrum, which a calf is born. Completely naive. It has got no immunity of its own at all. Unlike human baby. It's very important that it gets the first colostrum, the first milking from its mother of a good quality very, very quickly. And that gives it a passive immunity which will cover the calf until it creates its own immunity. So it's essential. But then the next other four or five milking is traditional milk. And adding has more of this good stuff of immunity and other things that we don't even partly understand. But because of the potential transfer of disease, we have gone away from using that and using a powdered milk and a special high powder and high polychlonal antibodies, which is the immunity goodies which help the calves build really strong immunity themselves.

16:32

That's all really fascinating stuff. I mean, there's a huge amount to unpack there. The whole sort of element where, you know, on average now you're two and a half times below the industry average, but then you do have that spike. And again, it sort of points to the fact that, you know, antibiotics have a function. Nobody's suggesting that farmers shouldn't be using antibiotics at all. They are necessary to maintain herd health at various different times or individual cow health. It's just about that routine use, isn't it? And I like the way that you talked about that kind of inbuilt radar that your partner has in terms of being able to spot when, you know, the behavior just changes that little bit in a cow so that they can be treated then beforehand. Just for the sake again of those listeners who, you know, don't know every farm term that's out there. Could you just explain what a dry cow is and what dry cow therapy is? Just very quickly.

20:12

So dry cow is a cow that is stopping milking, stopping her lactation and is going on a little holiday. Two months she's dry, not producing any milk and growing her baby, her calf, and that's the time before she calves. So a dry cow therapy or a drying off, when the cow has got her last milking in that lactation, we dry her off. We use a sealant which looks like a plaque, which I suppose in natural alive it would be a little wax plug, but we replicate that and to stop anything going inside the other and causing infection. But if a cow has a problem and had a mastitis or still has a mastitis in her, in that previous lactation or cell count is got a chronic, God forbid, chronic mastitis over 180, 150, she then has an antibiotic tube inside her other that kills any lingering bucks that might be in there and then she calves in.

21:03

Yeah, that's really helpful. Thanks so much. And obviously we've been sort of talking to two farmers who are, you know, already a long way down the road of not using antibiotics, of managing their herd in a way that means that they, you know, they don't get sick as much firstly, and that also they're able to spot the challenges that exist before the antibiotics are needed. But Becca, I just wonder if, coming back to, to you, we can talk about farmers that are in more industrialized systems and where that more routine use of antibiotics exists. And I'm interested in why you think that some farmers are wedded to the routine use of antibiotics, particularly in those more industrialised systems. What do they achieve?

21:56

I think it's probably important to remember that they use the antibiotics initially when that has been a problem. So they must have probably originally had an outbreak of something or they've experienced issues like Carolina was saying of mastitis after the dry period or high cell counts. And so they've initially set out to treat the issue with antibiotics. There is a problem, the antibiotics fix it. And at the end of the day that that is going to work. That's the nature of the drug. And I think over time you sort of get into a habit and it can be quite difficult to break that habit. It's a bit of a leap of faith to stop using them and trust that a vaccine is going to work or that you've made the management changes which are needed so that prevent that being a problem. And I think it's quite easy when something is working, you don't want to rock the boat and you don't want to run the risk of other problems developing by stopping it.

22:37

Lucy, let me bring you in because you've been sitting there very patiently, and I just wonder, you know, my sort of feeling is that the sort of routine use of antibiotics is really masking challenges that are sort of inherent in that particular system. Is that something that you would broadly agree with?

23:26

Yes, I would. I would see antibiotics as potentially a sticking plaster for a problem. So they will help control levels of disease, but the disease is there for reason, be it that animal immunity is being compromised, that nutrition is not meeting what the animal needs, that the animals are being housed in an environment that is not again, meeting their needs. And a sticking plaster isn't perhaps what we want to have for optimal performance in a system. And so actually, by looking at what we could do to create that environment for an animal to thrive, we'll actually get far more gains than just using the sticking plaster.

23:42

And what are the risks for those farmers in those sorts of systems who are moving away from that routine prophylactic use, that preventative use of antibiotics?

24:25

The risks by just removing an antibiotic are really significant. And no farmer wants to. To see disease in their stock. But I'd turn the question round and encourage a farmer to look at the opportunity that is there for healthier, more productive stock by taking out the antibiotics, but being able to institute management changes so that they're not required.

24:35

So that's about a sort of healthier farm system overall, a more robust animal.

24:59

Absolutely. So, for example, Carolina has talked quite a lot about the importance of colostrum and immunity in the calves. And yes, that will protect the calves to a degree against calf pneumonia, but actually has lifelong opportunity in terms of influencing the longevity of that animal in the dairy herd, the amount of milk that the animal would go on and produce if it's had optimal levels of colostrum, which is why I think those can't be overlooked. Making the most of those inputs into the animal and not using the sticking plaster of antibiotics as a routine and only resorting to them. And when a disease occurs in an

25:03

animal, and if we just look at the, you know, the difference in the systems that we've got from the farmers on this podcast, on this program at the moment, you know, in the sort of overheads that they have in their system versus a system that is, you know, quite industrialized, perhaps a fully indoor dairy system. I mean, there's a lot of cost built in there and antibiotics aren't cheap, are they?

25:44

No, they're not. And they're a very tangible cost of disease that farmers will see on, on their bill. But the cost of drugs is actually only a fraction of the cost of disease. And so while Carolina and Tom will have experienced an increased drug cost in 2024 with their outbreak of calf pneumonia, that was actually only about a quarter of the cost of that disease outbreak to them. There's the cost of the time put into treatment by the farmer, extra nutrition at that time. Those heifers probably are not going to last as long in their dairy herd and produce quite as much milk or getting calf as easily. So the cost of antibiotics in disease is just a fraction. So there are so many gains to make by not needing the antibiotics as much and improving the overall levels of disease.

26:04

And the way that you frame that, you know, if we're looking at ongoing farm resilience, like looking at the ways that farmers can become more profitable, more productive within the sort of same level of inputs, but at the same time reducing the use of external inputs, those either from off farm or more particularly from outside the uk, where those supply chains are inherently more risky, then obviously systems with fewer inputs are inherently more resilient. And, Sophie, coming back to you, you've always been a pretty low user of antibiotics. What do you think is the sort of the magic key in your system? How have you achieved that within your herd?

26:59

It's hard to measure. Exactly. But as Carolina said, I think it's a whole farm system. You know, the health of cattle, starting with the soil, as well as the health of the people on the farm. And that's always something I've had in mind, is the effect it has on the sort of spirits of everyone who works on the farm. If you have an outbreak of something, it's very depressing. So there are many reasons to want to avoid an outbreak. With the best will in the world, we're all susceptible to it. But I think just as animals like ourselves, fresh air, good food and exercise. Exercise does reduce your milk yield sometimes. Our cows are walking two and a half, three kilometers, so there is a yield penalty for that. But it makes them very strong. Their feet are good. Lameness is minimal in spite of walking so far. So I think those are just fundamental things that, you know, mammals do well on. It helps their metabolic welfare.

27:37

And ultimately, I suppose when you're talking about the impact on yield, that only matters if you're not producing enough milk and managing to sell it at a high enough price doesn't it? If that model is built into your system where you're expecting a particular yield and a particular price and your inputs are at a particular stage that you're still able to make enough money out of that system, then that's not an issue.

28:43

Well, it's a very fine balancing act and obviously milk prices are very volatile. But again, like Carolina, we supply Yeovalli where on their organic supply chain and they reward certain standards. So it helps. We very much have in mind optimal production rather than maximum production, but the sweet spot for everyone, whatever. Your system is a moving target.

29:05

And how are you managing and observing the herd so that you're able to treat any health problems before they become serious, before those sort of more serious infections send get in?

29:33

Well, it is very much the skill of the herd's people because the animals are milked twice a day, they're closely observed both in the parlour and to and from the parlour. And though they're outside dry cows at the moment, we're also block spring calving. People are out there two or three times a day, so able to observe and you get your eye in, you know, you can just see cows that are hunched, unhappy, separating themselves from the herd. So it's. Yeah, it's good observation and knowledge.

29:44

And what role does the vet play in helping you to manage the herd for overall better health?

30:17

You know, expert advice and also analysis. So Becca is our vet and we've run into problems with yonis, TB and as I say, red water. We've had some miscarriages before Christmas, so fryers more ability to run historic analysis and see if there are any patterns. Very often they're not, which is frustrating. But it's also important as a dairy business to feel that you're doing something. You're trying to mine down to the reasons that health in certain cattle hasn't been as robust as you would hope. So all that know how expertise and the analysis is really important.

30:23

That's really interesting, the way in which data and knowledge records, you know, can play a hugely important role. And perhaps we'll hear more about that as we go forward. Lucy, I'm interested in the role of the vet because, you know, there is this sort of sense that the vet is a bit like an ambulance. The vet will turn up when there's a problem. But that role has changed a lot over the last couple of decades. Much more of it is about sort of management and advice. And I wonder if you could talk to us about your experience of that shift, because I Think you've been a vet for about 20 years and you must have seen quite a lot of change over that period.

31:09

I have indeed. It has been a massive shift when I reflect back on my day to day life. Twenty years ago, myself and the team at Friars More now spend a much, much smaller proportion of our time dealing with emergency call outs and a far greater proportion of our time working with clients that we know really well on preventing disease and monitoring that and helping them get maximum production out of their animals. You referred to data there and I'm not sure I even had a laptop when I started 20 years ago and now I can't leave home without it. The data that's collected on Pharm and our experts data analysis team within the clinic is fundamental to helping our clients monitor their efficiencies. And the other thing that's really changed is the training and education. We offer quite a lot of training courses to empower farm staff with knowledge so that they can really understand why good husbandry is important. That's a key element of motivating change across a farm team, like the training courses that's done and how we deliver them.

31:42

And part of the evidence around that change. Change is what's changed in terms of those overnight call outs, isn't it? Because I think when I was first talking to you a few months ago, you were saying that the number of sort of emergency call outs, particularly overnight, has changed quite dramatically.

32:53

It has. I mean, it's springtime coming up and one will expect now that the phone does go. But in the less busy times of years for carvings and lammings, yes, a night on call without any call is the more commonplace. And that's ultimately testament to the change in breeding policies that farmers use. The upskill of farms being able to deal with problems themselves, the progression of nutrition so that fewer cows get milk fever, which is a deficiency of calcium around calving, all goes hand in hand to us having fewer nights, nights when we're out dealing with emergencies.

33:09

You've talked there about the way in which, you know, you as a vet have seen the shift and the way the veterinary profession has taken responsibility around things like antibiotics and training has sort of come in. But at the same time you need to see a mindset shift amongst the farmers, sort of the population of farmers overall. And I just wonder, are all farmers kind of susceptible to those sorts of conversations and have they been kind of a means of to the idea of not just having vets for the emergency treatment, but starting to pay for knowledge and advice instead has it been a fairly easy journey?

33:50

We have a huge range of personalities across our clients and we've got two very converted farmers on the podcast today. With the converted, it's easy. You know, Carolina and Tom well understood that their money wasn't being well spent in antibiotics and the loss of revenue of future production for those heifers that had pneumonia. That money being put into discussion on farm around calf immunity and nutrition, alongside tweaking the vaccination policy was money that was really well spent. That's work that's very easy to economically justify with clients that are already on that journey. I suppose our next tool that we have is using farm like Hemsworth and Hye park as examples. So we are really well placed in the practice to facilitate farmers getting together. And through the Youngstock discussion group that we have, we will meet on different farms and show a group of farmers what one farmer has done on their journey. And farmers really like learning from other farmers. And I see our role there as well. More the facilitator to quietly stand back and point things out. But set it up and let the farmers teach each other about husbandry changes that can take place. I guess we have the farmers that are very data driven. So all the data analysis that goes on behind the scenes in the practice is very useful on a one to one basis to show a farmer where they sit on a benchmarking graph and the the thoughts that that farmer then has. Well, those clients are equally high yielding. They're at the top of that graph. I want to be there. How can I get there? And so data is a really helpful thing for some clients.

34:25

Can you tell me a bit more about that data, about where it comes from, what sort of data we're talking about?

36:17

The data that we use every day is quite simple data often so it might. It's antibiotic usage. It is. In the Young stock group, we will look at the efficiency of colostrum transfer to get a feel for how much immunity calves are set up with. We will look at growth rates so how many kilos calves are doing per day and that reflects on the efficiency of their nutrition. Farmers collect huge amounts of data in their be it in the farm management systems or in just a diary, but pulling that data out of how many calves got treated or how many calves were born still is really useful. So it's not necessarily complex data, but we're really keen to use it and to use it with clients because often data can be there and just sitting there and not used.

36:22

It's fascinating because obviously the data itself doesn't tell the whole story, but it can indicate things, can't it, about management and the way that management has influenced particular usage or the presence of particular diseases. And the way that you're using this information at a kind of at a local level or at a farm veterinary business level is fascinating. I remember working with FAI farms on some work with kfc, looking at the farmers that were producing for KFC across Europe and they were doing the same, same thing at a European scale where they have a phenomenal amount of data that's coming in about the amount of disease prevalence, about the use of medications and they're able to sort of spot peaks in poor results, I suppose, and learn from one country and adjust management in another country. So sort of doing that at a sort of regional scale as opposed to a local scale. But the way that data can be used is really quite powerful. And Carolina, you, I know, are taking a more data led approach. You're using the cowmanager system. Can you tell me what that is and how that helps you?

37:17

The cow manager is ear tags, put it simply, ear tags which have a little responder on them and they measure the cow activity, her temperature and also her rumination which is digesting her food and the time that she's obviously still. And all of the information then gets responded from her ear tag onto a set of transmitters around the farm and then that gets all pulled onto the software and all our team on the farm have the app on their phone and it also works with our farm software. So we see all the information, compares individual cows data to the herd average and it gives us, so we can see if a cow is off color for whatever reason, whether she doesn't move as much, whether her temperature is up or down, whether she's not ruminating and it gives us alerts on our phone. So it's basically the job that Tom would do if he was out there continuously all the time, had nothing else to do. So we replaced Tom with these tags.

38:24

And it's remarkable the way you say you're not waiting for that data to be crunched by a vet or by a consultancy business. It's there in real time on this device that you're carrying around in your pocket. So it really must be incredibly helpful. Helpful at sort of spotting these changes, spotting these challenges. How far in advance, very often are you sort of able to see things almost days in advance of problems breaking out?

39:27

Possibly, yes. But as I say, the interesting thing is that it's not any quicker than Tom. You Know, which is really interesting. And it's like what Sophie said. It brings it back to the fact that, you know, you need to have a good team that are best vested interest in the animals and really care for them. And I think, think the ear tags are really interesting, you know, especially if we're not here, then we've got that peace of mind that we can still keep an eye on the cows. It's also incredibly useful when it comes to the breeding time, when it shows, it tracks also the ovulation cycle of the. Of the animals. So we can see her heat when she is ovulating, when she can be inseminated or when the bull, one of our bulls have the dog, so we can track that. That's really, really important. And obviously it tells us if she's poorly. We can. If for whatever reason, cow is highlighted, yes, we tend to pick her up quicker than we probably would as a team. Not always, but we've got that evidence there. We can then pull her out during her milking or even, you know, out of the shed, her temperature, check any issues and then either be with ourselves or call the van.

39:50

I love the idea that you've just been able to clone Tom and that, you know, basically now everybody can be a Tom and that's what that system's allowing you. You've got Tom's expertise, which is now available to everybody on the farm. Sophie, land management for you is the central pillar, I think, in your system. And I wonder if you could talk to me about your rotation and your grazing system, you know, how you manage that grassland that you have, and also your approach to hard feed, because we're

40:57

an organic system and therefore can't use artificial fertilizer. Building fertility and maintaining fertility as the sort of bedrock of the whole system. And the cows are what drive that. So we started with a rather depleted farm and obviously we're on chalk, so it's not inherently really fertile soil and the way, you know, it's changed so much over the years. But what we've arrived at now is we use herbal lays almost exclusively and they're grazed in rotation for four or five years. And because we're not using fertilizer, the resting period between grazings is longer than probably normal, so it's 35 days rather than about 24, sometimes 40 days. So the ground is clean on the whole. And when we then put a crop in, we break the lays in the spring, having outwintered on the last year of a lay, those two years in a crop also give the Opportunity for the grazing platform to have a rest from cattle and the buildup of pathogens.

41:23

So you've got a rotational grazing system. That's right.

42:39

I mean it's not exactly mob grazing. They need a little bit more space. The dairy cattle as they're producing milk but they're moved twice a day. So according to the growth rate of the pasture, the number of cattle, what their yield's doing, what the weather's doing, the herd manager gives them a certain area of land.

42:43

And how long is your rotation? Because obviously you're, you're, you're rotating the grazing with the arable. And I get the impression that the great, that the rotation is actually possibly even longer than you've had the herd for.

43:07

Well, it does, it does change every time. I think I'm going to see the complete cycle of a rotation. We extend it. But yes, it's seven, eight years and

43:18

you've been going for six, which is remarkable.

43:29

It needs different fields require different, different treatments. So we, we do slightly make it up as we go along and it depends on the weather. We're using more and more lucerne now because of its drought resistant qualities. And we try and grow all our concentrate for the cows on the farm. So that's something that's changed. I used to sell all the grain we produced for human consumption for organic Aragon but now it's about a half, half split. So all our animals, animal feed crops are now by crops we plant say oats and peas or wheat and beans so that it's a ready made protein mix for the cattle and it's milled on farm.

43:32

And so presumably because that's, it's a bi mix that you're planting, that there's an additional resilience, you know, natural resilience within those arable crops as well. And I just wonder if you could tell me, you know, about the proportion. I think it's about three quarters of your milk is produced directly from the grass and then the concentrate is picking up the difference and you're more or less providing everything that the cows need from the farm itself.

44:15

Yes, getting there. We do have to import a bit of protein still but I think we'll get better at growing protein in our crops. Fantastic, diverse. Diversify a bit from beans and peas and try some other protein legumes and

44:42

you've got a breeding program in place. What sort of traits are you breeding for that kind of help you to maintain that high herd health and resilience?

44:57

We started genomically testing three years ago and fertility is probably our absolutely top consideration because we're block spring calving. So everything needs to become, become in calf pregnant within a short period of time. And we have had fertility challenges over the last couple of years which Frasmore have helped us a lot in, you know, getting to the bottom of and doing something about. So we select for fertility and ease of calving. All our cows are carved outside starting end of February, March. And Last year only one cow out of 245 at the point of carving needed assistance. And then, you know, constituents are important because that's our, you know, basis for our contract with Yeovalli. Constituents meaning fat and protein constituents in the milk and feet, feet and legs. Really important for us because they do walk quite a long way.

45:05

Yeah, yeah. And I, I'm interested in that idea of the vets as detectives, the that together you're trying to work out, you know, what was at the bottom of that fertility challenge. Can you remember what it was?

46:09

Well, again, these things aren't always conclusive and they're not always one thing, but the outbreak of red water I think did have it went through the herd. Only a few presented with, you know, clinical signs that had to be treated, but it was probably rumbling through the herd and it co coincided with a year when our constituents were low as well. So it could have been a contributory factor to both.

46:20

Yeah. And when we spoke prior to the program, you said that your sort of vet practice, your vet advisors had been helpful in terms of developing your approach to young stock in particular.

46:46

Yes, it's always been a challenge to have really good knowledgeable people on farm helping with calving because obviously we do it in, in this incredibly intense two, three month period. But we don't always have a job for the rest of the year for the calf rearer. So having experienced good people on farm to do that can be a challenge. And what Lucy particularly specializes in is training people. They come and weigh the calves, test the colostrum, observe and look at any other considerations. So for instance, this year we've got a very young calf rearer. She's hasn't got any experience, but she's been trained up by the Ferrarsmore Young Stocks team and then they're much more experienced people on farm to oversee what she does. But everything's happening at once. 240 cows calving, you know, you're putting them through the system to, for the, for the milk and looking after the calves. It's a complicated, intense time.

46:57

So Lucy coming back to you, you and Becca, of course, run the Young Stock Group at Friarsmoor. What's the purpose of that group and how has it developed? And tell me a bit about the training as well.

48:01

So the Young Stock Group was set up 11 years ago now and primarily looks after dairy Youngstock and we set it up to offer a calf data monitoring service because at that point in time the only data that we had really were treatment records, mortality records and then potentially how well they did in the dairy herd. And by being part of that monitoring service, as Sophie says, farmers get extra information on how their calves are performing and how the team is doing. So how well have they absorbed their colostrum? How fast are they growing? Clients then get different things out of the group. So there are the clients that are very data driven and like to have that monthly report. They may be people that don't directly deal with the calves on a day to day basis. So it's a management tool for them. There are the clients that really like coming to the meetings that I explained about. Well, we'll go to a farm and have a look at a system and just like the opportunity of being able to meet up with, with like minded people. There are the farmers like Carolina, I would say that really like the exposure to the sort of current, new current knowledge that we, Becca and I like seek out every year to incorporate into our meetings so that they can feel that they are doing the best that evidence is, is currently suggesting is right. But like I said, there's lots of different personalities of farmers and different people get different things, things out of the group depending on what personality type they are.

48:11

I've always thought that farmers really, you know, there is this sort of tendency to look over the hedge. Isn't there sort of an inherent nosiness about what other farmers are doing and what you can learn from. And so it's fascinating that that's effectively become a business opportunity for friars More where you're able to help farmers look over the hedge through bringing them directly onto the farm by doing the training, by sharing that knowledge, that using data for that sort of peer to peer knowledge exchange.

49:47

Yeah, because often at the meeting we will use a relevant piece of data to share anonymously between them. I mean it's often not anonymous and they confess to they are, but they really like that and being able to see each other's improvements because, you know, in another meeting we'll demonstrate, you know, how everyone's figure has changed over the last five years. And that's really nice to see because quite a lot of the People have been in the group from the word go and know each other well. And you asked me a bit more about the training. Well, I do think that a lot of what drives animal health is good nutrition, immunity and husbandry. And I do think it's key that the people that are on farm that are doing that really understand why they're doing it and are exposed to different ways of people doing it. And I think farmers that invest in their staff, there's huge amounts of reward to then gain.

50:17

Fantastic. We're pretty much at the end of the program, Becca, but before we finish, I just wonder if you could summarise the opportunity here for farmers in reducing their antibiotic use.

51:18

Ultimately, we need antibiotics to treat sick animals. So if you sort of take back fundamentals, if you can reduce the amount of disease in your animals, whether that's through vaccines or through managing your infrastructure, increasing the health is going to naturally increase your. Decrease your antibiotic usage. So sick animals, yes, it's the cost of production loss at the moment, they're sick, you know, especially in calves. We do see that throughout their lives, in their production, in their longevity. So there's a lot of those unseen losses as well. So if we can focus on a prevention rather than a cure, ultimately your healthy, happy animals are going to be more productive animals on the farm.

51:30

And just finally, Lucy, for those farmers wanting to take their next steps down this road, what are the most important things for them to do and to consider in terms of their antibiotics usage?

52:10

I think the first thing is to take a positive growth mindset to this in that improving health, health through reducing antibiotic usage can be a really rewarding journey for the farm team to go on. Everyone's got some data and it doesn't need to be complicated, but taking the time to look at it with your vet that knows your farm really well, to give some direction, you can't tackle everything at once, but look at where most of it's going and make a start. You can't change everything in a day that everyone can start a journey. And I'd really like to come back to that, bringing the whole team onto the journey with you through, involving them in discussions and investing in their training and knowledge, because everybody gets something out of it. And the benefit on the happy farmers with lower stress levels from managing disease are not to be underestimated.

52:20

Brilliant. I think it's really fascinating, you know, aside from. From the whole need to reduce antibiotic usage just in order to prevent that resistance building up for both farm animals and indeed human beings that there are so many other reasons, so many opportunities around improving management, having more robust, healthier livestock, and of course, you know, reducing the costs to the farmer as well. Well, that's it. That's all we have time for. I'd like to thank my guests Lucy Hepworth and Rebecca Price from Farm More Livestock Health and our farmers, Carolina Klaskova and Sophie Alexander. If you've enjoyed listening, please come back and listen to more. Tell your friends like us, review us and share our links. Farmgate is the world's highest ranking food security podcast. We're part of89.com, the land use news channel, and we're supported by First Milk, Pelican AG, the Nature Friendly Farming Network, Friarsmoor Livestock Health, aggrollo, and individual donors. I've been Finn Locustain Bye for now.

53:17

It.

54:12