Trump Bullies Allies, Powell Stays Put, and Kalshi Faces Criminal Charges

Support for the show comes from coreweave. Everywhere you look, AI is expanding what we thought was possible. And at the center of it all is coreweave. Medical research and diagnosis, education, complex visual effects for movies, science and technology breakthroughs. CoreWeave powers AI pioneers around the world with purpose built tech, building what's never been built before. CoreWeave is the essential cloud for AI. Ready for anything. Ready for AI to learn more about how CoreWeave powers the world's best AI, go to coreweave.com readyfor anything.

0:00

Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business takes everything you've got. And a lot of the tools out there that are supposed to make your life easier just aren't great at talking to each other. And that means you end up having to toggle between a dozen different apps and services just to keep the lights on. Enough of that. Now there's Odoo, the all in one fully integrated platform that actually might help you get it all done. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you try Odoo for free@odoo.com that's o d o o dot com.

0:33

Support for the show comes from Back Market. Everyone listening to this pod has heard or seen an ad telling you how much you need their latest tech. Let me let you in on a little secret. You don't need that upgrade. Companies often tell you that you need this version just to find out it basically does what the previous version can do. That's why Back Market, the world's leader in premium refurbished tec, is giving you another option. Back Market offers a range of high quality tech inspected and refurbished by professionals. It's all they do. They have phones, computers, gaming consoles, vacuum cleaners, and even ipods. Plus they're a company with a purpose, as refurbished tech is proven to have a significantly lower environmental impact than new stuff. Shop now@backmarket.com and I got to hang out with Larry David. It's like angry, meet depressed. Depressed, meet angry.

1:08

Hi everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher.

1:55

And I'm Scott Galloway.

2:00

Scott, have you recovered from south by Southwest?

2:01

I'm still basking in the glow. I thought it was great.

2:04

It was good. Yeah, I had a good time in the end. It was really fun. What was your favorite highlight of it?

2:07

My favorite highlight?

2:12

Besides our time together?

2:14

The way Representative Talarika described masculinity. And he talks about his father, I guess, who used to come home on Sunday and Immediately change and then mow their lawn. And then without ever talking about it, just went next door and mowed the lawn of this old lady's. And I thought. And he described.

2:15

That really struck you, you mentioned it at the show, that why did you. Did. Did you ever mow people's lawns?

2:35

I used to mow lawns for money, but I didn't do it. I showed up to the house before I mowed a lawn and said, hey, seven bucks in Ohio and I'll mow your lawn.

2:40

Oh, wow.

2:49

And I had a manual lawnmower, and I was all of about 120 pounds pushing a manual lawnmower around.

2:50

So you were not taught to mow people's lawns?

2:56

No, I was taught to make money. My dad was like, go make money.

2:58

Go make money. Interesting.

3:02

I think jobs are huge for teens.

3:05

Yep, yep.

3:06

My son got a job at a taco truck last summer. It was so good for him, you know, so many. Anyways, I think chores, chores, jobs and sports. I mean, anyways.

3:08

And anyway, the reason I'm asking is because it's introspection.

3:22

And when you're introspection, I've gotten much more introspective. Just today I'm here in Tulum and I've had some time to really contemplate. And I've decided that it's time for me at this age, Kara, it's time for life is finite. It's time for me to start. To start living my dreams. So I'm going to start showing up for tests I'm not prepared for. Naked.

3:25

Well, as always. So you're in the Marc Andreessen school. Have you heard about this situation, Mark? Let me just say what it is. Marc Andreessen, who I really don't like anymore. I didn't like that much then, but he's really become such a troll. He said he's a famous. He was part of the Netscape browser thing. I wouldn't say he was the only person. He did take a lot of credit. Important entrepreneur in Silicon Valley and et cetera. Now he's a venture capitalist. On the Founders podcast with David Senra, he said, my goal is zero introspection. As little as possible. 400 years ago, it would never occur to anyone to be introspective. Like the whole idea. I mean, just all the modern conceptions around introspection and therapy and all the things that kind of result from that are kind of manufactured in the 1910s, 1920s. This is very much in line with him being an expert on Everything. He used to lecture me about things he knew, not laughing about a lot. All it says to me is, this man is in desperate need of therapy. He's just trying to be like, I don't think about anything. And I found it very dystopian. And I find him dystopian in general. But this idea that introspection is a weakness, again, is not masculine, it's not feminine, it's not human. I think in some ways, yeah, I

3:49

think it's important to occasionally, you know, do some sort of kind of pondering. Ask yourself, if you could only bring one thing to a desert island, what would you bring? And I decided the answer is I wouldn't go, no. I need edibles, streaming media, and my plane. Kara, no, look, in all seriousness, it's as if these guys, Altman and Andreessen, hired a publicist, the brightest comms person in the world, and said, how do we convince humanity we're bad for humanity? And this notion that technology requires less energy to get to a point of critical thinking than a human is just so nihilist and so weird. And then introspection is how we move forward as a species.

5:05

I was like, Socrates, Plato, Marcus Aurelius, like, it's been around. He's like, oh, it's just the 1910s. He's so ignorant. Like the idea. Introspection is a critical element of all philosophy going back. Also, by the way, Jesus, test the Bible. It's all about thinking, about reflecting on

5:50

how you become a better introspection is why we have the Marshall Plan and why people reconnect with their family members. Introspection is how you try to become a better person and realize the errors of your actions and that your actions have ramifications and what can you do to leave the world a better place? And it's indicative, again, of this far right performative. I won't even call it masculinity, but macho that I don't care. I just plow ahead because I'm such a baller. It's just so. It's just like, okay, it's crazy.

6:09

I don't. Like, my grandmother didn't introspect a lot. She grew up in the Depression, right? She didn't wonder if she was happy. I think she probably could have been happier, right? That kind of thing. And there's an element to that. But this idea that the idea of thoughtfulness has not been around since the dawn of fucking time drives me crazy. The second thing is, look, this guy has a very famously. And doesn't speak to his family. Right. Like, there's all manner of fucked up ness that is buried very deep in this particular person who has influence on other. Who has massive influence on everybody else. And you know, he's like, he's an emotional. I don't want to use. You know, he's just a tiny little man from a soul point of view, like extraordinarily small. And I find it really. Just bragging about it is the last. You know, he's the one that said we should fight more. Like we should physically fight. Like, as if he could get in a fight with anybody, he'd lose in a second. But it's just. They just. You're right. They're trying to be villains or something. By the way, the main villain in the Marvel movies is quite introspective, FYI.

6:42

Well, I would argue that probably, I mean, people would say the greatest mind of the 20th century was Einstein, but they should take a play, take a page from the playbook of the greatest, arguably the greatest technologist of the 20th century. And that was someone who not only had a vision for technology, but could bring together people to what was at that moment, develop and deploy the most important technology in history, or at least the most profound. And that was Oppenheimer. And he was hugely introspective.

7:48

So was Beinstein, if you read.

8:16

They were hugely introspective. They were really worried about what about the ramifications of their actions and how they could spend the rest of their lives trying to. They didn't just say the introspection isn't some AI guy who vests his shares and then scares the shit out of the world as he peaces out to the Cote d'. Azur. That is not introspection. Bill Gates, for all the shit Bill Gates is getting, and a lot of it is warranted, he decided, I have become the wealthiest person in the world at that moment. I am smart. What could I do with my resources to impact millions of people? And he started distributing. He decided, I think I can stop malaria in a continent. That is introspection.

8:17

Yeah. Anyway, it's led to a lot of very funny memes. Marcus Andronicus. And then nothing. It's called nothing. What a soulless, empty person. And this is not where we should be getting clues as we go forward. That's just my feeling. And I think one of the more damaging figures in terms of training young men at Silicon Valley is this guy. He's not someone to follow. Let me just say I've known him since he was very Young, and he's progressed negatively and backwardly in a way that's really quite depressing, oddly enough, in relation. And then we'll finish up on this. I had lunch at south by Southwest with Mark Cuban. What a person who was developed in a really. He was telling me all about his cosplash, the passion around it. I just was like, he also looks

9:04

great, by the way.

9:51

He looks great. Yeah. He's eating clams. That's another story.

9:51

Jesus, did he bore you with that story? I had to suffer through that. That he buys on Amazon.

9:54

Yeah. Let's not get into it. We'll have him on to talk about it at some point. He's trying to get protein, but it was funny.

10:00

If oysters means GLP1, I believe it. Seriously. I met with him and Michael Dell, and they're both claiming that they're playing a lot of Padel. I'm like your old. You could eat you right now. Padel, my ass.

10:06

Fidel. Anyway, I just was like, I had a wonderful talk about prescription drugs, about life, about his kids. Like, what? It was such a difference. Like, he is the opposite of.

10:19

He's like a good man trying to add value.

10:32

Yeah, exactly. Anyway, we have to move on. But Mark honestly stopped all of you. Alex Karp said a number of stupid things. Stop talking. All of you, stop talking. Because what you say is nonsensical and actually makes you look so stupid and pathetic that it's. I'm just here to help you on that issue anyway.

10:33

But look, even if you're religion, you're supposed to reflect on some of it is somewhat crypto. If Jesus could feed the world with two fishes and a loaf, you know, if you really think about it, that's tapas,

10:54

I think. Peace out. Peace out.

11:09

All right, let's move on. I can't do any better than that. I can't do any better than that.

11:12

Okay, as of this recording, oil prices in the morning.

11:15

That's a segue.

11:19

That's a segue in a more. In a more real situation. Prices of oil is over $119 a barrel at one point. Following attacks on energy sites in the Gulf, President Trump has been lashing out at US Allies this week, demanding they send warships to help secure the Strait of Hormuz. The response has been, quote, global raspberry, as one analyst put it. We're seeing also the first resignation over this war. Counterterrorism official Joe Kent stepped down, saying Iran posed no imminent threat. Of course, he went on Tucker Carlson. He's of that Ilk. He has some problems himself, but nonetheless, unless he quickly went on Tucker Carlson to discuss his departure. Because this is like the train, the right wing MAGA train, if you're going in one direction. Meanwhile, the Pentagon is asking the White House to approve $200 billion request for Congress to fund the Iran war. I think an entire, I think Joe Biden was 180 billion for like years long wars or whatever. Defense Secretary Pete Haggs has just said in a briefing that a number could move because it takes money to kill bad guys. Speaking of introspection. What an idiot. The next move, what happens here? Trump also said this week, by the way, that a former president told him he regretted not bombing them, but all the former living presidents denied saying that. So I guess he's talking to himself. I mean, they've denied it like he's such a liar. It's astonishing. Like what this guy does, obviously, either cognitive or just a liar, I'm not sure. Where do you think, what do you think's happening here now? Let's have a quick update.

11:20

Well, I mean, mother of all understatements is it's complicated. Look, I think the fatal flaw of the Trump administration is they don't recognize our power as a species and as a country, and that is as powerful as we are. We're only a third of the world's gdp. But because we were seen as the good guys and innovators and that we did embrace this notion that if we can make you wealthier and more peaceful, ultimately that wealth and peace will return home in the form of you buying our trucks and being our ally. And we can put a military base there. And the operating system of 60 or 70% of the world was US laws, military flows of energy, general rule of law, even democracies, even laws and justice systems were based off the US Model and to a lesser extent, the British model. It just got evolved. We were sort of 2.0. And he's decided, no, with 30%, I can go at it alone. And what he's found is all of a sudden he's 1/3 versus 2/3. And this is just when my we, you know, we warn my son not to take grapefruit juice into the, to the living room with the brand new couch. And he tells us, don't be an idiot, I can handle it. And then he screams, dad, I need help. And I know exactly what's happened. It's just, yeah, he spilled the green. Well, what do you know? I'm going to do this unilaterally. I'M not going to go to the U.N. i mean, talk. Gulf won. George Bush put together a coalition of, I think 31 countries. He got UN authorization and he got the allies to pay 62 of the $70 billion in costs that war cost is.

12:49

And a great sacrifice for many of them. And of course he's been downplaying their sacrifice. And they're like literally saying no. And by the way, and if you get come out of NATO, fine. Like they're now at that point, I mean, you know, whatever.

14:19

He asked China for help and by the way, China's ships are flowing through. So the notion that he's going to, quote, unquote, an enemy or nemesis going to people he's been really rude to, I mean, this is just. And they didn't anticipate that they wouldn't be able to count on their allies.

14:32

Didn't anticipate the Iran pushback. The strength of the. I mean, he was advised by, by the way, pretty much stories coming out now are like, he was told this, he was told this, he was told they would do this, they would close the straight moves. Like everyone's leaking the shit out of things. Which is really, I mean, what's interesting. I know it's the smallest part of it, but the lie about presidents was weird. Was just weird. Like, why would you say that? And then they all say no. And it looks like he's. It's a lie or he's talking to himself or whatever. The whole thing seems like lies come out of his mouth every day now that are easily checkable, like easily checkable lies. And that don't really work. And so something's going on. Something's happening in a way that's. I mean, I don't want to give him an excuse. Maybe he's just a malevolent prick, but it seems problematic that he's leading this coalition of the one.

14:50

And also when you hire incompetent conspiracy theorists, which is what Joe Kent is. I mean, this is very upsetting for me as someone, you know, quite frankly as a Jew. And that is. He immediately said that basically the largest military in the world in the United States is being manipulated by Jews. And this just plays into a very anti Semitic trope being fomented on the far right. And I don't, I don't doubt Logan,

15:44

Megyn Kelly, there's a bunch of them.

16:10

Yeah. That this is all Jews fault.

16:12

Yeah.

16:14

That is just.

16:15

That's what they were doing.

16:15

That's not helpful.

16:16

Yeah.

16:18

So.

16:18

And it's one thing to be against the war. And I think there's some legitimate or

16:19

to say Netanyahu has too much influence over. I get it.

16:23

No, I get it. No, I mean just saying the America first people can say we don't like wars and but they do always take it right into that. That was. Tucker Carlson's a dangerous person in that regard, I'll tell you.

16:26

Oh, they're doing a victory lap. They're like the number whatever five at the, you know, in our intelligence unit is saying what Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson are saying, that it's the Jews. We're being manipulated by the Jews.

16:38

Yeah.

16:51

Anyway.

16:52

Problematic. It's problematic. So, so oil prices, what is, what actual impact is this going to have on the economy as a whole?

16:52

It's immediate. I mean unfortunately. And it always happens. It hurts, it hurts middle income families and lower income already you're talking about an increase for every dollar increase at the pump. And it looks like we are going to have about a dollar increase. It's another $530 a year. And low income families spend almost get this 20% of their income on home and auto energy costs.

17:00

Yeah. And then the residual effects of everything

17:23

you touch is impacted. Everything got to you using some form of fuel or is consuming fuel. And it's going to probably spike inflation an additional hundred bips in the short run.

17:27

Speaking of which, Jerome Powell says he'll stay on his Fed chair until his successor is confirmed by the Senate. Even if that's after his term expires. He has every right to. It could be a while. The Senate hasn't even scheduled a hearing for Trump's nominee. Kevin Morsh. GOP Senator Thom Tillis, who I'm talking to next week, says he won't vote on confirmation until the DOJ investigation on Powell is over. They've been handed some court things, Jeanine Pirro and the rest around Powell for his part, and they're appealing it, I think for his part. Powell also says he'll stay on as Fed governor, which I said he would, remember I said this until the investigation is well and truly over. I thought he would do this. He looks like he ran out of fucks a long time ago. And well and truly over means he could stay as long as he is a while there on that Fed Governor thing. And he'll have, as you noted many times, enormous influence. So this is the opposite of what Trump wanted. And he's stuck with Powell and Tillis, I can tell you, is not give, I mean is not stopping at all, at all.

17:40

So I Think if it had been a different president who demonstrated more grace to him, I don't doubt he would have stepped down. Or if he'd said to him, listen, I want you to be my chief economic advisor. I have even something more important for you. But keep in mind, as long as Jerome Powell is in the room, I've said this. There's how you think, there's the governance structure, and then there's actually how boards and body politic works. And this is essentially a board of directors. This is how they work. There's a bunch of them. In every board, there's 12 people and there's two people who matter. There's the largest shareholder, which doesn't apply here, and then there's someone who's so fucking smart that everyone, they don't speak a lot, they listen a lot, but when they speak, everyone has a tendency to nod their head and that. Tell me the. Whatever it is the other 11 governors are gonna. When Jerome Powell says, you know, whatever the chair is, the person who.

18:41

Well, he's gonna run it. I don't think. I think Tillis isn't giving. I know Tillis isn't giving up. He said it. He's like, Tillis now suddenly, as you said, Ben. And he's like, no, I'm going to do the right thing for. He's very offended by the Jerome Powell thing. I know that. And so I think it's. He's a business person. He's a really. Well, he had a. You know, he was a. Even though, you know, he sounds like he's like, he's qualified as a smart guy, very smart guy is very stuck on this. Powell not putting Wash through. Obviously, he helped take down Kristi Noem. I think there's. There's such a pushback, not just from our allies abroad, but here. If you're someone like Thom Tillis and can stop this, you do it. Why not? What's the negative for him? There's nothing. Because Trump pushed him out essentially of the Senate and now he's in enormous position of power and influence, the same thing. And so Powell's not gonna bring rates down, by the way, especially with inflation up. So Trump has gotten the opposite of everything he wanted.

19:40

No. Kalshu said there was a 99% likelihood they would not cut rates. But where I was headed was I would bet 98% of the decisions in the Fed from the board of governors, regardless of who's in charge, regardless of who takes the mic, the new chair, whatever Jerome Powell said was probably the right Move in that meeting is what they're going to do. This is the guy that had a Mary Lou Retton like stick the landing of the economy where he basically tamed inflation by 600 basis points while not going into recession. Like no one in economics.

20:42

I think Warsh is perfectly qualified. But Trump now has Jerome Powell forever. Especially the dumb attack on his, I

21:23

think another six or 12 years or something or whatever, basically till Powell dies.

21:30

And also he's gonna stay there as the head of it. It's just anyway, good for him. Good for him.

21:34

I think he is the first.

21:42

He's a hero.

21:44

The first medal of free recipient.

21:44

Yeah, he's one.

21:46

Democrats love to show that they're bipartisan. It'll probably be Vice President Spence will be first. The first one. And the second one will be Jerome Powell.

21:48

Vice President Spence.

21:55

Who's Pence? I'm sorry?

21:56

Pence. Pence. Oh, Vice President Pence. Yeah. Oh, that's a good idea. The two of them. Oh, that's brilliant.

21:58

Pence does not get enough recognition. His legacy is going to age really well.

22:03

Yes, Father. I like father. At this point, Father's actually father and Powell. Oh, that'll work for me. Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll say goodbye to the metaverse. Support for on with Kara Swisher comes from the 2027 Chevy Bolt. As you all know from listening to me, I love my Chevy bolt. It's one of my favorite things. I almost like it as much as my kids anyway. That's right. The Chevy bolt is back and better than ever now with 2.5 times faster charging with DC Public fast charging that goes from 10 to 80 in just 25 minutes. I've been riding around in the bolt for years. And again, I have to say, I love it. I don't know what why I love it so much. It's just happy car. Some of you times you have sad cars. Happy cars. I've had the cars for a couple of years. I've never had a problem with it. It's freezing cold here in D.C. right now and nothing happened to my battery. I charge it. I happen to charge at my house. It does take a little longer. But with this new Chevy Bold, it's much faster. I'm thinking of trading it in. Although I love my bolt, so it's a very difficult decision. I just think I can't say enough about the Chevy bolt and the amount of time you've been listening to this show, your bolt could have charged and Be ready to hit the road. Best of all, 2027 Bolt features upgraded tech, has an 11.3-inch diagonal touchscreen. All that and more in Chevy's most affordable ev. It was easy to use before. It's easier to use and easier to charge, and I know some people are worried about that. You shouldn't be. Learn more@chevy.com bolt 2.5 times faster charging with 150 kilowatt plus DC fast charging 2027 bolt when compared to the 2023 bolt which is the one I think I have. Actual charge times will vary. See the owner's manual for details and limitations.

22:07

Support for the show comes from Back Market Listen, there's a lot of ads out there telling you to buy new products. I've actually found that buying a new car makes no sense. I've owned cars my whole life, raised in California, and I have bought a bunch of new cars and a bunch of used cars. And I think that quite frankly, used is the way to go. And it's the same with tech products. But Back Market is giving you the option to find sustainable tech products at a much more affordable rate. Back Market offers a range of high quality tech inspected and refurbished by professionals. It's all they do. They have phones, computers, gaming consoles, vacuum cleaners, and even ipods. All of the tech at Back Market has been inspected and restored by professionals to ensure it is in perfect working condition. Condition. They offer 30 day returns and a one year warranty. And not only is Back Market refurbished tech more affordable than buying new, it's also more sustainable. Back Market is on a mission to reduce the environmental toll that fast tech has on our planet. As refurbished tech has proven to use less raw materials, leave behind less waste, and create fewer carbon emissions than new tech. They say E waste is the fastest growing waste stream in the world and it's an issue that Back Market wants to actively address through initiatives including their Earth Month campaign. Shop now@backmarket.com

23:56

Support for this show comes from MongoDB. If you're tired of database limitations and architectures that break when you scale, it's time to think outside the rows and columns. Because let's be honest, you didn't get detect to babysit a broken database. You got into it to actually build something. MongoDB lets you do that. It's flexible developers first asset compliant, enterprise ready and built for the AI era. Say goodbye to bottlenecks and legacy code. Start innovating with MongoDB. There's a reason it's trusted by so many of the Fortune 500. And that's because it's a platform built by developers for developers. They swear by it, literally. They call it a great database. Start building@mongodb.com. Scott, we're back with more news. And Meta is shutting down its VR metaverse on June 15th. The legless people are gone. The VR social network Horizon Worlds never drew more than a couple hundred thousand active users a month. Some users reported the daily active users actually dropped to under a thousand. Who are those people? I want to meet those people. Over 70 billion was spent on the project over time. You have talked about this for a long time. I never liked the Metaverse.

25:08

So, some breaking news that broke after the recording. Kara, we just learned that Meta is not shutting down VR support for Horizon Worlds. That's according to an Instagram post from Meta CTO Andrew Bosworth. He said there was open, quote, a lot of misinformation about the company's plans. We announced, hey, we're moving away from Horizon Worlds and VR. And the headline is that Horizon is dead. He said it's not. And likewise, VR is not dead. We're continuing to invest tremendously. This is weak sauce. We fucked up. Nana is on life support, and despite the fact she might have brainwaves, we're pulling the plug soon. This is, in my view, an attempt to backtrack and not totally freak out the remaining employees before they find them another job or lay them off. This is dead, in my view. And an attempt to, if you will say no, there's still hope when they believe. And every indication here is that this thing is maybe in hospice. But be clear, it's on the Green Mile. All right, enough of that. Let's move on.

26:25

While the press was fawning over the idea, you were not impressed. Let's listen to a clip from 2021.

27:35

I just love the fact that Mark Zuckerberg is showing up with literally the biggest fucking thud in history. And that's the Oculus. That's his vision for the metaverse.

27:41

Now, one from 2022.

27:51

And so if he pulls it off, it'll be one of the most impressive feats in renewal. Corporate. Not even corporate renewal, but vision around maintaining growth. If they pull it off, I don't think they're going to. I think this thing is already a giant, flaming bag of shit.

27:53

One from last year.

28:09

I was the original hater of headsets and Metaverse. And the idea of a bunch of cyborgs rocking around in their own world, even when they were outside, it was sort of anathema. To like everything we should be doing.

28:11

Nice call, Scott. Let me just say that second of all, I didn't like Meta because the legless, it was weird. Remember when he introduced it? It was so weird and awkward at the time. One of the things that's astonishing here is that he could have this much of a loss and still they're doing so well elsewhere that this $70 billion doesn't matter and he's fetted while other people who have losses get slapped back to. But this is such a failure. Please, please take a lap and conclude this chapter of Mark Zuckerberg's life for us.

28:23

Kira. The fact that $70 billion in capex got taken into a street and burned and that people didn't want to live in a legless future where they didn't want to be in a place where 40% of them were within 20 minutes nauseous or that they further separate from Hume. I'm shocked, Kara. I'm shocked this didn't work. I had big hopes for it because anything. Mark Zuckerberg is clearly right. This is, I mean, the scariest thing, I think the scariest thing about our economy, other than the income inequality, is the fact that we have now tied the fate of the S and p and the 10% wealthiest households who control the economy now and government. We've tied it to our ability to evolve a new species of asocial asexual males and some females. And the thing is, this is a healthy gag reflex for mammals. One on a very instinctive level, it's very uncomfortable, especially for women, but for everybody. When you're walking on the sidewalk alone and you hear footsteps behind you or on the side of you, because the things you can eat and the things that can eat you don't come straight at you. They have a habit of coming from behind you or from the side. And so your peripheral vision, and the reason why billboards on the highway are still a big business, is you notice shit in your peripheral vision. Vision. You're very subconsciously conscious of what's in your peripheral vision or what isn't. And when it's blocked with a headset, you feel uncomfortable. So they never spoke to an anthropologist to say, all right, what happens when we invent a technology that from the moment they turn it on, it's like if you turned on your PC and it made you feel slightly nauseous.

28:56

Yeah, no, all those. Remember all of that stuff. Remember they showed it at CES years ago where you looked at a TV that was jumping out at you. It was sickening. And no one never. It was a big thing. One year at CES and then it wasn't. Let me ask you. I'm ask you a more challenging question. All right, look. We're going to have immersive worlds, right? In some way. And some of it is kind of cool. I remember 20 years ago, Walt and I went to Korea and went to either Sony or lg and we were looking at these headsets in movies. Pretty fucking cool. I remember thinking that. And I wasn't nauseous. I went to the Sphere this week, which I loved. I saw the Dorothy thing and I thought it was wonderful. And we were all in a big room. And I have to say it was a lovely communal experience because everyone was laughing and they dropped apples out of the sky and everything else. There is something I want you to say. What will work here? Because there is an immersive experience with screens that is very satisfying. What would you if you had to pick a business in this. In the immersive screens, either on your head or in a situation like the Sphere, which I think is a spectacular achievement in a lot of ways. And it's also beautiful on the outside. Cause it's delightful. What do you imagine that to be?

30:37

I don't think they'll ever be big businesses care. I think they're niche experiences. I think that our species has gotten really used to and comfortable with, as bad as it is this world. So IMAX is an immersive experience, but it's never really lived up to the potential outlined.

31:52

It's good business though.

32:08

Yeah. It's been, quite frankly, over the last 40 years, it's been a shitty business. IMAX relative to the cost, it's been okay. I love IMAX every time. That's what I do. When I take my. I love seeing in imax.

32:10

I'm going to see Project Hail Mary tomorrow night.

32:22

It's a niche business. The only place I want an immersive experience is when I'm having my teeth cleaned by a hot single mother. Brazilian single mother. And then she puts on headset that I can watch Heated Rivalry. And she, you know. And then I start crying. Cause I start thinking about my mom and I'm under the influence. I tell her to. When she says. She says 1 to 10 nitrous. I go 12, baby.

32:24

Can I tell you what I liked about like, you're right. They're experiential things. One of the things that was cool about Sphere is I have seen wizard of Oz a million times recently too. Cause my Little kids are now watching it. So it's not something I want to see again and again. But one of the things I thought was quite beautiful was the ability to see things in the movie that I never saw. Like some of the beautiful costumes, some of the beautiful, you know, set design, and oddly enough, the faces of all the people that weren't Dorothy like, or the main characters like, I found myself looking at these beautiful faces from another era, Right? Like, there was two twins there that I never noticed. And so one of the things I found it wasn't just everyone was like, oh, the tornado. And I was like, that was cool. But what was beautiful was I could really see things in a way that I appreciate, in a way I appreciated. So there is something valu. Immersive in some way, like travel, I suppose, or when you go to a theme park and you get on one of those rides that you like, you soar past the Golden Gate Bridge. I love all those things.

32:47

Now, look, going into another world, you feel like an explorer. It's sensory overload. It's really exciting. And then you want out. Escape Room is correctly named. You wouldn't want to live in this sphere. Your body can't handle that much sensory stimulation in the sphere. By the way, similar to Imax, an amazing product. It's not doing well economically. So the idea, or even the ultimate sensory experience, the ultimate moment of awe, supposedly, according to astronauts, is to go into space and see the world from another perspective. But guess what? What's the first thing they want to do after a week?

33:50

Get home.

34:29

They want to get home. So what I think. I wish technology was more focused on. I hate this notion that we need to colonize Mars. No, the real genius here is someone who's gonna make this place a little bit more fucking habitable. I'm in Tulum, staring out at palm trees and coconuts and the sand, the sugary sand. And I'm in awe and I'm comfortable. And this is the only fucking universe I wanna be in.

34:29

Yeah, no, I know. It's true. I've never wanted to go to the space anyways. Look, it's a disaster, Mark. You were wrong. Scott was right. That's all I have to say. Speaking of scaling back, OpenAI is scaling back on projects and focusing on coding and business users. Pressure for the change comes from competitors like Anthropic, which you and I have been talking about dominating the business AI market. Employees also felt the company's do everything strategy led to a lack of focus. Speaking of which, OpenAI delayed the launch of the adult mode, which would allow sexually explicit conversations due to concerns from advisors over mental health risks. You think. Also of concern, an age prediction system that has been misclassifying minors as adults 12% of the time. The feature, which the company still plans to release eventually would be text only. This is all the influence of Fiji Simo, who is the new top executive there. Very similar. When Eric Schmidt came to Google, they were sort of chaotic and did everything. The two founders, Larry and Sergey, and then they brought Eric in to really clean it up. Seems sort of basic, this executive, but they do have made like a million stupid announcements and it does remind one of Google in that regard. Our thoughts?

34:56

You're exactly right. It's. Remember when Google was doing shit like trying to cure death. And then I feel like Eric brought in managerial competence and how to scale an organization. But Ruth Peratt showed up and said, all right, mom is home, fun time's over, the dog's pregnant and the garage is on fire. I'm in charge now and this is the right move for OpenAI. And that is. And by the way, and this will go to my prediction, Anthropic is not worth more than OpenAI. I don't care what the last mark is on a preferred funding, but Anthropic has surged to 19 billion in annual recurring revenue, up from 14 billion just a couple weeks ago. 6 billion in ARR was added just in February. OpenAI ARR was 20 billion at the end of 2025. And here's the key. It's all about the enterprise because they're the only ones that are willing to make these huge investments. And get this, Kara. Anthropic's enterprise market share has increased to 32%, surpassing OpenAI's 25%. And since 2023, enterprise AI revenue has exploded from 1.7 billion to 37 billion.

36:05

Yeah, they've got to be the OpenAI's really messed this up.

37:13

And then the other staggering statistic here, that is why OpenAI is focusing, which is the right thing to do, is Anthropic is now capturing three out of four new spending in enterprise AI. So they're getting 73% of all spending among companies buying AI tools for the first time. And 10 weeks ago, the split with OpenAI was 50 50. So get this, get this.

37:18

Thank you, Pete Hegseth.

37:47

It was 60:40 in OpenAI's favor as recently as early December. So from December to now, it's gone from 6040 to 2773. So they are literally Losing the enterprise market.

37:48

So it's starting to feel like OpenAI's Netscape, not Google. Right.

38:04

That's how interesting analogy you've often seen.

38:07

I was there when Google was the first bout of chaos was at the beginning and there was a cover of Fortune magazine. Chaos at Google. And of course Ruth also shut down all manner. They had so many ridiculous shit they were doing and they could do it just like Mark with the Metaverse because they had all this money. But it was like dumb. It was at the time when they would have you in and I was always like, this seems dumb. Why are you doing this? Why don't you stick with your business? And they just want it to be more creative or more. Something more interesting in some fashion. But it's really interesting because this is at a time when I think Anthropic's been under pressure from the government. But in the end they will soar and Pete Hegseth will be a sad little footnote. A sad little drunken footnote in our history. Anyway, we'll see what happens. Speaking of someone who won't be a footnote, I would say is Bob Iger stepped down as Disney CEO again. Iger passed the baton to his successor, Josh d', Amoro, at Disney's annual shareholder meeting this week. Tomorrow. A 28 year old veteran of the company was most recently head of Disney Experiences, which includes parks, cruises and resorts. Iger is set to stay on as an advisor and board member until the end of 2026. Not very long. It's unclear what he'll do after that. Before the time he left, he did a bunch of advising and sailing around on a boat in the South Seas. Last time he retired, which I said he wasn't going to stay retired. I asked him whether he planned to get into politics. Let's listen to what he told me in 2022. Did you ever run for office?

38:10

I'm not planning to run for office.

39:42

That. Is that a no?

39:43

That's just what I said. I'm not.

39:45

Okay, all right, fine. I think you are. So last thing you should. I don't usually. Do not tell another white guy, oh please, run for office. We don't have enough of you. But I think you would be an excellent. Because I think you'd be an excellent politician because I don't think you give a fuck. Anyway, I don't think he's going to run for office. Actually. I can't imagine he's going to do that. But what do you think his next act will be? I mean, he Certainly had his ups and downs, and the stock has not reflected much of it. Although I do think he did a lot around digital. I think he did a lot around streaming. I think he was a very good CEO for much of his tenure and not so good in other things. I think probably the Fox purchase is one people point to as being problematic, but in general, pretty good tenure, especially around streaming. I think that he made those moves. What do you think his next act should be?

39:46

Hit the golf course and enjoy his life. And I would call challenge on his tenure, Kara, because the last 10 years have been the most prosperous in the history of the world for American companies. And his stock is below work. It was 10 years ago. And at the end of the day, as the CEO, that's your. What you're evaluated. That's your kind of metrics. One, two, and three. He, quite frankly, he really fucked up. He's the guy who went to Vietnam, completed his tour honorably, came home with medals pinned to his chest. He could be a viable candidate for the Democratic nomination right now, but he's more. He looks less like Mark Cuban and more like Sheryl Sandberg. And that is his second tenure. First off, he was heckling from the cheap seats he left and never really left the room. Convince the board, as far as I can tell, to fire the new guy and put me back in like some returning hero. And he has had huge wins in his face. But Disney has become. Disney has gone from being probably the most iconic company in the creative community to a certain extent. It represents what's happened to the creative community, and that is distinct of how incredible it is and their great IP and their great creativity. It's been bad for shareholders, and it's probably been a difficult place to work the last 10 years. And he did make a lot of the right moves. He launched a streaming network, he invested in the parks. But at the end of the day, his last 10 years, there was never a clear succession path. He started to feel a little bit like, I forget the name of that guy at Citigroup, that anytime someone got near him, got shot in the head. So he leaves. He's very likable. He's very smooth. Had he stayed away and then just let someone else run with it, I think he'd probably be. Be a cabinet member, maybe even by, you know, in the next administration, at a minimum. Now he's. Now he's the guy that, quite frankly, took Disney.

40:37

He didn't take the stock anywhere. I get that. I understand. I think doing the streaming stuff was critical to its future. And he definitely pushed that through. Like I was there watching. I mean, he made a number of dumb digital moves over the years. They kept changing Disney, Buena Vista. I mean, I was. I wrote stories on every one of them. But I do think directionally, very few people leaned into digital and streaming the way he did. Right. And I think.

42:29

I don't know. I would argue Netflix leaned in a little.

42:52

Netflix, of course. No, no. Yes. No. They should have bought Netflix when they had the chance. And they. Everybody had the chance at one point. But yet you're right. Netflix was in the. In the right position. But you are dragging around a legacy organization makes. Makes it very hard.

42:54

Like, is the organization that had the world's best ip. I mean, yes, Netflix. So, okay, so Disney in the last 10 years has market returns of zero and Netflix is up four. I'm sorry, it's up 600%. Granted, the other studios have not fared any better, but with that ip, with the Parkster cash flow. Look, Bob, Bob, what's the lesson here? The lesson is the following, and I think about this a lot. It is very hard to pull off the ultimate gangster move for your brand when you're in a position of power and you're doing well. And that is to leave the party too early. And that is people have a tendency when they're doing well and they're so iconic, as Bob Iger is and was, to think to just stay too long. You want to leave the stage while people are clapping. You want to leave a party 10 minutes too early. You want to leave the Vanity Fair Oscar party at midnight, not at 4am when you're wandering out alone and it's clear Emily Ratajkowski is not going to speak to you.

43:09

Is she there?

44:24

By the way, at one point, I was sitting at the bar.

44:26

We didn't talk about this because you were blabbing away to all your other.

44:28

I was sitting at the bar, no joke. In between Jon Hamm, who's quite handsome.

44:31

He's a handsome man.

44:36

And Jacob Elordi, who is even more handsome and much taller. Emily started walking towards the bar. I could think of is, there's no fucking way she's coming to me right now. No way. I'm like. I'm like, the Price is Right.

44:37

This is the real Emily. Rad. You saw her?

44:51

Oh, yeah. Trust me, I saw her.

44:53

Okay.

44:56

Yeah. By the way, she looks pretty good. She looks pretty good.

44:56

So wait, what happened? Wait, I only want the Ratajkowski part. Go ahead.

45:01

Nothing she did. She just walked up and had a drink. And at some point, I'm like, I wanna be the professor, not the stalker. So. But my favorite moment is.

45:05

You didn't say hello.

45:13

I'm too captivated.

45:14

Oh, my God. She's gotta know we talk about it.

45:16

I said hi to Maureen Dowd and Kaitlan Collins. Those are my friends.

45:19

I saw that.

45:22

That's who I hang out with. And the smartless guys. Those guys are fun. I like those guys.

45:24

They're fun. Those are fun.

45:28

And they're like. They feel sorry. The only people that come up to me are, like. They come to me as an intellectual. They think, oh, it's so cute they have a professor here. Let's go be nice to them. That's our charity for the night. And everybody comes up to me and says, I have sons, and I very much appreciate your work. And then they say, oh, can I meet. You know, can I meet Judd Apatow? Now I'm convinced half the people. Half the people talking to me.

45:29

Yeah.

45:52

Were checking themselves out in the reflection of my glasses.

45:52

Oh, no.

45:55

And my.

45:56

I can't believe you didn't speak to Emily Radicals, by the way.

45:57

Vanity Fair. Those people are geniuses. I'm gonna subscribe twice.

46:01

Okay.

46:06

All right. The environment they pulled together that night, y.

46:07

It's a nice.

46:11

I think it's the most aspirational environment I've ever been in in my life. I just couldn't get over the wardrobe, the environment, the food, the vibe.

46:12

They've always done a good job.

46:19

I just saw it. The new editor in. Unbelievable.

46:20

Mark. Yeah.

46:24

Mark just is an amazing, handsome guy, too.

46:25

Yeah. I have to say, they've always had a good party. They've been good at that under all their different editors. I think it's.

46:28

And I got to hang out with Larry David. It's like, angry, meet depressed. Depressed, meet angry.

46:34

Oh, my God. You look alike. What happened? Was there, like, a moment in the unit?

46:38

We really. Lar. Larry and I are friends now. We totally get along.

46:41

Okay. All right.

46:45

Yeah, we hit it off. And by the way, the Larry David show is really the Larry David show. He's like, that's exactly who he is. He's like, what's the point of an Oscar? He just starts into a bit, and you're like, okay, here we are.

46:46

He has a new show that looks hysterical that he did with the Obamas.

46:58

Yeah. He's got a very lovely wife, too. Anyways, I Very much. I don't know.

47:01

I got Bob Iger there because it was.

47:05

I did not see Bob, I did not sense a cashmere sweater, tuxedo anywhere. But the thing is, you walk in and they like, do you want to do a red carpet in morning Dale? It's like, I'm not doing a red carpet. And I'm like, I am so doing the red carpet. And they have hundreds of photographers, and there's three X's. And I guess you're supposed to go to one X and take pictures. Yeah, I didn't know that. So I go to the first X, and they're like, hello, Profess. And they're all nice. And I'm like, now I'm gonna go to the second X and sit here and pose.

47:08

Get the fuck out of here.

47:37

And then I go to the third X. And by the time I got to the third X, I realized everyone's, what the fuck is this guy doing? And one of the photographers, just out of a moment of, like, feeling sorry for me, kind of waved me along, is like, you're supposed to go to just one X.

47:38

And I turned beet red.

47:52

I'm a bad celebrity.

47:53

Oh, my God. Can I ask you one question? Did you see Jeff Bezos? He was there.

47:54

Oh, yeah. I saw him with Lauren. I thought they looked great. I don't.

47:58

No, I didn't. I thought they looked great.

48:01

I don't mind Jeff's midlife crisis. I'm here for it.

48:02

I know, but did you say hello?

48:05

I said hello to all three of them. I mean, I said, yeah. No, I said hello. I didn't say hello. I'm intimidated. Unless people come up to me, I'm intimidated. I don't like to approach anybody.

48:06

You could have gone and said, kara says hello. That in that one. You could have done that.

48:17

That's, hi, my rich father knows you. I just don't want to do that. I don't.

48:20

No, he doesn't like me. I would be bad. He wouldn't be good.

48:25

But I literally freaked out at about midnight. I'm like, this is the best party of my life. I need to go home and take a Xanax and just recover from all the. I felt like a kid who'd been at a candy store for eight hours.

48:27

Did you? I can't believe my own. My only note is, I can't believe you didn't say hello to Emily Ratoczkowski. You're a loser. You are a loser.

48:37

And I think she was there alone. Not that I was looking at her a lot. I think she was very alone.

48:44

You needed to say that was your golden opportunity. You didn't say hello. That's the end of our relationship. Anyway, Bob Iger's next act, very quickly,

48:48

he'll go on a couple boards and he'll enjoy his life. And he deserves to do all of this. He's gonna hang out with his lovely wife and speak at USC's film school.

48:56

He's gotta do something else. Mm. Mm. I think it's something else. Let me tell you, when he was.

49:04

Bob is 74. 73.

49:07

Yeah. He is in really good shape. When he was in the last one, he texted me far too much and I was like, I think you need to do something else because I think he's got another thing in him. I don't know what it is.

49:09

No, no. He's 75. Yeah, yeah.

49:19

He could be in the cabinet.

49:21

He could be in the Democrat. Well, that's 77. 78. He could be the head. Could he be the Commerce Secretary? I don't know.

49:22

He probably doesn't want to. What do you need that shit for?

49:30

He'll be ambassador to France and throw amazing parties at, like, the U.S. rescue.

49:32

That's perfect. Ambassador to France.

49:38

Yeah.

49:39

Let's do it. Bob, we're going to send you to France anyway. Let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Couchy facing criminal charges. Your favorite groups of people there, Scott.

49:40

Support for the show comes from coreweave. AI isn't just a new tool. It encompasses so much more. It's spurring a revolution across all industries and reshaping itself to become a big part of our future together. Coreweave is at the center, powering some of the biggest names in AI. As the essential cloud for AI, coreweave provides an AI platform that combines next generation infrastructure, intelligent tools and expert support. It's powering the world's most complex AI workloads faster and more efficiently. From medical research and diagnosis to education, from complex visual effects, from movies to breakthroughs in science and technology. If it's AI, coreweave is uniquely ready to power it with purpose. Purpose built tech. The big ideas, the wild visions and what ifs and why nots. Coreweave is working to build what's never been built before. Coreweave is the essential cloud for AI. Ready for anything, ready for AI. To learn more about how Core Weave powers the world's best AI, go to coreweave.com readyfor anything. Support for the show comes from bmc. Before you scale AI to every corner of your business, before you supercharge your agency with AI, ready data before you trust your entire business to AI. BMC First BMC is here to help you look past the hype of the AI revolution and look toward an orderly AI evolution. For decades, BMC has powered the systems the world can't afford to fail with automation, orchestration and control at enterprise scale. And today they are the automation engine for the AI era, the foundation for the agentic enterprise at scale. And as companies seek to harness the power of automation to streamline and accelerate their most complex and critical innovation business processes, BMC is ready to partner with them. Because BMC is uniquely qualified to solve the orchestration, data and execution challenges that AI creates. Before AI, Before Automation, Before Orchestration BMC first how can you change the course of your business when you partner with BMC? Learn more@bmc.com when you use the trusted automated investing and savings app Betterment, you stop worrying about where your money is growing and you start to feel calm, cool, confident. That's when things fall into place like a domino effect. Since you use Betterment's automated investing tools to invest for you, you now have more time to help your plants thrive. You decide to buy one more then seven. While your money is globally diversified, helping you stay calm during market chaos, you start to focus on other new niche hobbies like collecting miniatures. Now you have a thriving miniature town in your your living room. Since their tax smart tools help you keep more of your after tax returns, you're no longer afraid of tax day. You start to sleep better and remember to put on your PM moisturizer every night. People give you compliments on your glow. It gets kind of weird focusing on your life more than your money. That's the Betterment effect. Get started today@betterment.com that's betterment.com to start investing. Investing involves risk performance, not guaranteed. Betterment is not tax advisor nor should any information herein be consider tax advice, please consult a qualified tax professional.

49:54

Scott we're back with more news. Kalshee is facing criminal charges in Arizona where prosecutors say the prediction market platform illegally that people bet without a gambling license. Kalshee says the charges are meritless and said they should be regulated federally rather than by individual states. The case is the first criminal prosecution against a prediction market company. It's more to come. I actually when I was at south by south, met with the California attorney General who today did a lawsuit, one of the lawsuits against the nexstar, whatever that ridiculous merger was. In any case, the states have been regulating gambling for years, like forever, for decades. So it's not meritless. So what do you think? This because what was interesting, another story popped up which I found fascinating. The Times of Israel reporter received death threats from gamblers on polymarket after reporting an Iranian missile strike that affected a high stakes prediction market bet. Some bettors tried to pressure him to change the story so their market would resolve in their favor. And let me just say this is the topic people are really interested in. I'll read an email from one of our listeners. I'm a journalist and a fan of the show. I don't understand why I'm hearing Kelshi percentages cited during the show. Has that anything. It's people guessing. I think it's more harmful than helpful. That's you doing it, Scott. I don't do that. I agree with you. What do you think about these markets shifting from predicting events to actively influencing them? In certain given the gaming part, easily gamed, unregulated bad actors. It is gambling and gambling is very well regulated. So what do you think about that?

52:58

I think there's some truth to all of that. This is one of those things I'm hugely conflicted by because I am absolutely fascinated with the data. Where I would push back on the listener is oh no, this data is incredibly insightful. This is the wisdom of crowds. This does illuminate. Whenever I'm looking, looking at political races, whenever I'm looking at interest rate movements, I go to Cal State.

54:28

You don't think it's a trailing indicator? You don't think it's a trailing indicator?

54:53

It's pretty much up to date. And the thing about money and the thing about looking at typically the people who did this stuff were academics, economists or an investment banking analyst. All of them are conflicted. All of them want to catastrophize because it makes us look smarter. All of us have third party influences. Nothing is more amoral and pure than money. When someone bets on something, it really shows you what they really think is going to happen. And if you look at these speculative markets, speculation markets or prediction markets have essentially put pollsters into a certain extent investment banking analysts out of work because guess what? They're much kind of.

54:56

I would push back on that. I just met with a bunch of pollsters on this topic.

55:36

Go ahead. In my opinion, they're done. If you look at the prediction markets record versus pollsters in the last election, the prediction markets kick their ass. Absolutely. I love the data. I am swimming in the data. It's one of the first things I do before I get on a show is I look at Kalshi data, I'm totally conflicted because at the same time there's a really good argument that this is just gambling. Now what's happening is they're being charged with four counts of election wagering. The debate is over the fundamental definition of gambling versus event contracts. And Arizona charges claim that putting money on a contingent future event or occurrence is illegal. But at the same time care. If that's true, then traditional options would be illegal and that here's the problem or the issue. Gambling in and tapping into a prefrontal cortex, an immature prefrontal cortex that is dopa hungry and susceptible in some ways there's just no getting around. It feels predatory and unhealthy. So what do you do? Do you infantilize? I think Cal State is trying to be the cleanest, best lit place of this. They're not doing contracts on things like war, whereas polymarket is offshore and CalSHI is trying to get licensed by the same people who license the options. Exchan. But I want to hear what you think. I have no moral clarity around this.

55:38

I think the states have been regulating gambling forever. So I think that's nonsense. That they. If this. If gambling is going on, they need to. It's approving it.

57:13

They're approving it everywhere. States have been approving gambling all over the place.

57:22

They are, but. So they need to be regulated in the same way. Like it's my thing with everything. It's like if OpenAI is giving legal, medical or psychological advice, they need to be. Be subject to the same rules. People are right. The same. Everybody. Like I was in Vegas for a second. I have to tell you, you're absolutely right. It's dead. Vegas is dead. Like I've.

57:26

You don't need to be in Vegas. Vegas is in your pocket.

57:45

That's right. I was like, I literally. Oh my God. Scott was right. It was so freaky to be in Vegas without people. It felt like I was in like Pluribus. Right. It was so weird. And you could feel the. The innovation of a place that is just with these big rooms and the casinos empty. It's weird. And so it's. It's definitely hurting businesses. Right. Of things. Whether it's sports betting online or this kind of thing. There's a. They need to be regulated the same way everybody else is. And, and states have every right to do this. This is. This is not. And maybe there should be federal gambling laws, but there haven't been. Really.

57:47

I think that would be good. I think they would want That I think they want some regulation. Yes, but let me ask you that. Let me ask you a more point.

58:22

Well, that's what the old tech companies said, oh, we please bring this regulation. And they never got any.

58:27

I think they would actually be up for it.

58:31

Crypto. Please bring us regulation. They don't want.

58:33

Let me ask you this. You have some sons. I think about this a lot. Let's be clear. Much of this is gambling. But at the same time, do you infantilize children? And I know firsthand, as someone who appreciates data, there is real value in this data.

58:35

There is. It can also be easily gamed. So easily we don't know what's in it.

58:54

There's a lot of potential for insider trading, but the more liquid markets, people are more greedy anyway. Huge potential for insider trading. I get it. But let me ask you this. Do you think they should be put out of business, regulated, or let to just run free?

58:59

Regulated.

59:15

And what does that mean?

59:15

I'm not sure. I'm not an expert on this, but I feel like how are. I want to know how gambling things are regulated and how age getting to

59:17

21 would be one good start, right?

59:23

Possibly, yes. 21, it's interesting. Yes, yes, yes. Actually on certain parts. Other parts it's fine. But yes, age gating would be one thing and it's not infantilizing. We do it all the time with, with real businesses.

59:27

Agreed. Porn, alcohol, military.

59:41

What concerns me is we're different. It's the same song and dance from all Internet companies. We're different. We don't deserve the same thing. And they get an unfair advantage here.

59:44

Who gets unfair advantage?

59:56

These markets get unfair advantage. It made me very uncomfortable, for example, when CNN and others signed deals with them because I, I'm like. Because I don't think they know how to use them properly. That's the other thing. It can be. So it's not reporting like, it's not. It's some. It's an indicator. It's a data point, but it's not. I guess I don't like them doing polls either. So I guess I just, I find it very weak and it can be very influential in a way. And so I just feel like it obviously needs to have some regulatory thing with my sons. They don't actually. They're not big betters. I don't, I'm not. I don't know why. I mean, I get that like I was in Vegas for two days and I bet once, like, I was like, I walked right through the casinos. But that's me. But I just feel like it's the death threat. This reporter thing was a really interesting thing like this. This has implications that have been around since the dawn of time. These. And they think they're different and so how. I think we need to have more transparency into how they're doing things. I think they should have, you know, they shouldn't bet on deaths like, I mean they should. I don't know if we should make them not do it or if you say, okay, you're gonna do that.

59:58

Yeah, but to be fair, I do think Kalsha said we're not gonna create markets and things like war that might involve an incentive, that might involve death or geopolitical decisions.

1:01:10

So that's the kind of stuff. But there's gonna be someone who's gonna. So maybe we need some laws. Right?

1:01:20

I agree.

1:01:26

Anyway, I agree we have to move on. It's a really interesting, it's a developing situation but I think it's in every state's rights to do this, this. So Kalshi should stop being so like high handed with them. Of course they're going to come in. It's affecting things. So this is exactly why the government should come in in some fashion. At least think about it, have hearings, talk about it and let's discuss the things. Just before we finish. This is the last thing. Uber plans to invest $1.2 billion in Rivian as part of a deal to deploy 50,000 robo taxis. I recently spoke with Rivian founder and CEO RJ Scaringe on with Keir Swisher. I also saw him for an extended amount of time at south by South. Let's listen to a clip where he talked about self driving.

1:01:26

If you're a customer and you have a choice of I can buy a car for 35, $40,000 and it can, you know, drop me at the airport, it can go to the grocery store to pick up, you know, stuff for me. It can drop a friend at a house, it can do all those things. Or a car that doesn't do that. It's, it's going to be very binary, right. I think there'll be very few people that will self select to say I don't want those features. Even folks who are not comfortable with the idea of self driving, once you experience it one or two times, it does.

1:02:07

I tried that to everybody.

1:02:35

It's so sticky because you get your time back. Suddenly you can be reading a book on your phone. It's just so sticky. And so I think that is my

1:02:36

One way of convincing one person who likes to party. I'm like, you can text and drink. I don't know what to say. There's my. That's my sale for you. I think that was you I was talking about. It was really. It was super interesting. I think it's a real blow again to Tesla. And I drove the Rivian too at south by Southwest. I also. They have a really nifty bike called Also, which I a lot. I really like that Rivian. I think he's interesting. I think he's a great spokesperson for this stuff. And they're wonderful. It's a wonderful. I may buy one, I might buy an R2 because I was super impressed with it. In any case, it's a really interesting move by Uber. Who needs to get into this business. And it's a good thing for Rivian, who. It's a tough struggle to get these cars, to get a car company going. Your thoughts on Rivian?

1:02:44

I. I think it's a win. Win. I. I think it's. Rivian is subscale automobile platforms cost so many billions to produce. I think Rivian has done as good a job as anyone. I'm moving. When I move back to the U.S. i'm going to. If I buy a car and I've really enjoyed not having a car for four years, I'm probably going to buy a Rivian.

1:03:36

The two is nice, it's smaller.

1:03:55

I was one of those people that put 5,000 bucks down on it like five, six years ago and never took delivery of it, by the way. I should probably look into that new Calstry market. What's the likelihood this guy gets his money back?

1:03:56

I think, look, Tesla's missed a real opportunity here again and again and again. But I don't think he cares about the cars anymore, does he? I mean, he was introducing a cyber cab that doesn't exist and isn't being used anywhere. I mean, between Waymo and Rivian, I think they've sort of ran around, but let me.

1:04:09

It's also very. One, they need more scale. So this is a great win for Rivian. Two, I think one of the biggest brand enhancements is to be known. There are a few brands that have fallen further faster in the last 20 years and made shittier cars than Jaguar. This is one of the great British brands in history. The design and the cars the last 20 years have just been remarkably uninspiring. Now, the best brand move in my opinion of Jaguar is they have been the car of choice that I've Seen for Waymos.

1:04:24

Yes.

1:05:00

They are so immediate. It's like, oh, Jaguar is the kind of the Pepsi generation new cool car. I didn't even know what the. I had to look, I didn't even recognize the car. And I'm like, oh, that's a Jaguar. So it's brand enhancing for Rivian. It gives them all sorts of scale. And also what people have underappreciated is that the biggest winner, the obvious biggest winner in autonomous. Regardless of of all the bullshit press releases, people realize it's not Tesla, it's likely Waymo. They have the capital, they're miles ahead of everyone. They have exponentially more miles under their belt in terms of testing this. But there's an outside shot that the biggest winner here is going to be Uber. Because when you control sort of like

1:05:00

the Apple, they're sort of like the Apple with AI.

1:05:45

We always used to, in consulting, we always use the term custody of the consumer. My first client was Levi Strauss and Co. And they were always complaining about J.C. pen. I'm like, yeah, but they have custody of the consumer. You need to open your own stores. You need to go vertical to control the relationship with the consumer. In the US, Uber has 75% market share. They're basically a monopoly.

1:05:48

Yeah, Dr. Goes for shouting is a very effective.

1:06:11

And so what they can do is they can say, they can push up an icon saying, why do you need to download the Waymo or the Tesla app? Just click here for driverless.

1:06:13

Yeah. They could also do deals with Waymo

1:06:22

too, and they can play them off against each other, each other. They can find the company that wants to work with them the most and get market share.

1:06:24

But you could also use Uber to summon Waymo if you, I mean, think, why not?

1:06:30

That's the point.

1:06:34

Yeah.

1:06:35

And then take a. Take a large margin. So what did Apple do? Because they controlled custody of the billion wealthiest people in the world through UI and people don't want to learn a new app. They extract $20 billion a year from Alphabet to make Google the default search engine. Uber's in a position to extract extraordinary deals around Autonom. Make it and say to people, oh yeah, you want autonomous? No problem. Here's the Uber app you love. And so look, Waymo, it's gonna be interesting. Autonomous. I think one of the places that AI actually comes to fruition and exceeds our expectations is around autonomous.

1:06:36

I agree.

1:07:14

The question is, what's interesting is two of the biggest winners hands down are gonna be Uber and Waymo. And I wouldn't be Surprised if Uber is in fact the biggest winner cause they have custody of the consumer.

1:07:14

Yeah. Ultimately I've been a big. As a big proponent of self driving in a safe mode. I will tell you I would never get in a Tesla given I had a long talk with RJ about I think he's more on the you don't need this many points of safety but he put them on there anyway. And so compared to Elon is like I just have one camera, the guy in the back. I feel so unsafe in Teslas in that regard. And I think the way wh's done it is correct. But you're right, Uber's in a very. They could have been been. It could have been easily sidelined by all these companies but they have the. I always used to say they have the reservation system and that. And you're right, it's the chain of custody. And you do trust Uber. What a brand. I mean I know Travis Callan is trying to come back in this sector but I gotta say Dara took that company and really made it into one.

1:07:27

You know what is comparatively really been eye opening for me. And it goes to something you said that's always really resonated with me and that is the thing about tech executives. They're traditionally white males who went to elite schools, raised in wealthy families. And when you've never been a victim, it's difficult to understand victimization. That's always struck me that like until I walk in those shoes, you don't. And you know what women say to me that it makes so much sense and I just never realized it. I get into an Uber, the driver doesn't, usually doesn't talk to me. I don't want to talk to him. And I know that sounds terrible, I just don't, I don't want to talk to him. I want to be on my phone. Every woman I've talked to says when they get in an Uber, the Uber driver tries to chat her up and it's uncomfortable.

1:08:17

Not me, but yes, yes.

1:09:00

Well, it's uncomfortable. Especially if you talk to young women and they don't. And you know who's really used loves Waymo is women.

1:09:02

Women. They do. Or else you can also now on Uber, by the way, request a woman. There's a. They've done a great job. Let me tell you. Dara goes for shy. I don't agree with him. I think sometimes he can be a little due compromise with terrible people. I think he knows it.

1:09:11

He's a great CEO.

1:09:25

Yeah, he's a great CEO. He's done a great job here. All right, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

1:09:26

Spring is here, and the shopping list is long. Time. To make a Lowe's run. Buy three bags, get three free of stay green one cubic foot garden soil Plus. Right now, members can earn four time points. The points on an eligible purchase start Spring off strong with these deals and more. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's. Valid through 325, while supplies last Soil offer excludes Alaska and Hawaii. Loyalty program. Subject to terms and conditions. See lowe's.com terms for details. Subject to change Point booster. Subject to exclusions and more terms apply. One time only offer. It's not just something you made. It's the privilege that you get to work with your hands. It's building something that serves a purpose, proof that you have the grit to keep going. At Timberland, we understand you take your craft seriously, and we do, too, which is why our products are built to the highest quality. We put in the work so you can perfect yours with purpose, in every detail, and crafted with intention. Timberland built on craft. Visit timberland.com to shop. When you think about wealth inequality in America, there's probably one man whose name comes to mind. And yes, he did. Compare America's billionaire era to the Gilded Age. We're living in a moment where the top 1% owns more wealth than the bottom 93%. Where one man, Elon Musk, owns more wealth than the bottom 53% of American households. Where while 60% of our people are living poor paycheck to paycheck, the billionaire class has seen its wealth increase by a trillion and a half dollars since Trump was elected. How's that they doing? Pretty well. I talked to Senator Bernie Sanders about his latest bill for a wealth tax and his call for a moratorium on AI data centers, plus how much he uses AI himself. Today explained every week, weekday, and now on Saturdays, too.

1:09:38

Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction. Can I just start very quickly? I predict this MAGA micropenis war is going to get worse, and I am here for it. Do you know about this, right? Megyn Kelly said Mark Levin had a micropenis, and then President Trump defended his micropenis. And then Marjorie Taylor Greene came in with a Microsoft micropenis, and Megyn Kelly's doubling down on it. It's completely crude and awful and repulsive, and I think it's gonna get a lot worse. And I'm very pleased. Thank you.

1:11:39

Yeah, you know, I think it's inappropriate to talk about men's genitalia, Kara, by the way, I was at a urine stall last night, and a guy looked over and he said, circumcised. And I said, nope, that's just the wear and tear.

1:12:09

Oh, my God. You told that joke before you start clocking.

1:12:23

Your penis never gets older, by the way.

1:12:27

I'm not gonna say Adam Grant, but Adam Grant said, you gotta cut back on the penis jokes. The party you missed. Cause you recognize.

1:12:29

Oh, my nemesis.

1:12:34

Yeah, your nemesis was like the more

1:12:35

successful version of Scott Galloway.

1:12:37

He's doing a podcast on the Vox Media Podcast network with Brene Brown. The two of them, they're trying to be the nice version of Scott and Kara, I think. And he's commented on your penis jokes. And I said. And I literally, Scott, I said, I love them. I defended you so hard.

1:12:39

I appreciate that.

1:12:55

And I was like, people love them. And he's like, yeah, but do you think it's the right thing? I. It's the right thing. No matter how much that's right.

1:12:56

I don't want to be wrong. Also, I want to be a little bent to the left.

1:13:04

Yeah. Anyway, just to bent to the left.

1:13:08

It's a condition. I'm a special needs person. It's a condition. Don't shame me.

1:13:12

I'm here for now. Don't shame me now. I'm talking about microsorry, Adam, but micropenis work cracks me the fuck up, and I'm here for it, and I hope more to come. And I think we're not. Not done with the micropenis.

1:13:18

I gotta be honest, I love it when they were with each other, because one of the things I don't like about the Democratic Party is that I find, for the most part, when I just went on this great podcast, this really lovely guy, he's a conservative out of Fort Lauderdale.

1:13:29

Oh, you want that guy?

1:13:44

Oh, I like him. I thought he was nice. Anyways, the thing I find, generally speaking about Republicans is they're like, oh, you wanna be a Republican? Come on in. And when you say, oh, I wanna be a progressive, it's like, we'll see. I feel like we apply way more Talarico.

1:13:45

There's a new Democrat in town. But go ahead.

1:14:04

If you don't choose the right words, if you don't hold the gun correctly, let's court martial you.

1:14:07

It's the right that's doing it now, but go ahead.

1:14:13

No, you know what this is? This is a bunch of podcasters who know the algorithm. The more fights they get into and the more incendiary they are.

1:14:15

Yeah, I suppose you're right.

1:14:23

Candace Owens makes a living off of saying really vile things because the algorithms. And the reason our nation is being torn apart at the seams is there's now a financial incentive in being vile and incendiary. The algorithms love it. In a world where there were editors and fact checkers and more reasonable people saying, is that a reasonable thing we want to print? She would be fucking nowhere. Or. Yes, I get it anyway, so. I don't. I love it when these guys fight. But at the end of the day, it's. It's indicative of a bigger problem, and that is our media, our overlords are algorithms deciding that this is news.

1:14:24

Oh, you're so good. I don't care. I like the micropenis. Anyway. I defended you to Adam Grant on the.

1:15:04

I appreciate that. I'm telling you, other than academic credibility and talent and higher iq, that dude has nothing on me. That dude has nothing on. Do you know he was a diver in college?

1:15:09

Even that he was a daughter? Yeah.

1:15:19

All his sort of like, you know, his tweets about, you know, characters doing the right thing when no one's looking. Oh, fuck you.

1:15:22

All right, move along.

1:15:30

Adam Grant. You and Brene Brown, all your thoughtfulness and deep introspection.

1:15:31

Pound for pound, they're better people than us, but that's okay.

1:15:36

Well, that's clear.

1:15:39

Brene's better than us.

1:15:41

That's obvious.

1:15:41

I love that Brene.

1:15:42

Anyway, I want to be. I like them both. And Adam is a friend, so I trust he's taking this opportunity.

1:15:43

I hope so. One would assume maybe they'll discuss it on their new show. Maybe we should have a rumble with them.

1:15:49

I think we could be evil twins. I think with his intellect and my. I don't know, my something. We could take over Australia and Brene would be Queen of Australia.

1:15:54

We should do a crossover show. I'm going to invite them on a crossover show. All right. We could switch partners, you know, when they switch the husband and wives.

1:16:02

You know, I've tried it, but I'm the one that ends up alone and no one's up for it.

1:16:08

Okay.

1:16:12

It's called a tea party.

1:16:13

You could have Brene and. Well, you've been on Brene show. Anyway, finish. Do your prediction. Prediction?

1:16:14

My prediction is OpenAI Sora social media app will be shut down soon.

1:16:21

Oh, Sora. What do you know? You know something.

1:16:26

No, I don't. I've done no original reporting. Trust me.

1:16:30

Okay. All right.

1:16:32

But they're focusing, which is the right thing to do. Sora is essentially OpenAI's. It's sort of a tick like social media platform for AI generated content. And users use their video model to generate short form content and they can upload it and share it. Right. And upon its release, Sora came out at number one in the App Store and actually got more downloads out of the gates than ChatGPT did. However, the party's ended. Downloads fell 32% month over month in December and another 45% in January. And Samsora is the little engine that didn't. And also users continue to drop like flies. But at the same time, OpenAI. OpenAI has to spend a ton of money to keep the lights on there. And some estimates are that it also

1:16:34

brings a lot of legal challenges.

1:17:28

Well, it's costing them 15 million bucks a day or 5 billion a year. And despite that, the app is bringing in less than half a million dollars per month. And given their new focus, which is the rifle one on focus, it's not central to OpenAI's core competences. They're an AI company, not a social media company. It's not creating revenue, big losses. And also it's really unpopular. 62% of Americans disapprove of online videos created with AI.

1:17:30

It's a lot more trouble than it's worth.

1:17:59

It feels dystopian. 70% of people globally would be uncomfortable consuming fully AI generated creative content. So. So this new focus, this new adult in the room saying we need to focus on the enterprise market is now, quite frankly, we have seeded so much share and value to anthropic. The first.

1:18:01

Yeah, it's stupid. It's stupid.

1:18:18

Anyways, the first example of this focus is that OpenAI, Sora, rest in peace. It's going to be shut down.

1:18:20

All right, okay. Oh, I like that. That's a big call. I think that's a good one. I just want to make one other note before we go. President Trump's comments about dyslexia. I have a lot of friends who have dyslexia, by the way. He said Governor Newsom should not be president because he had dyslexia or has gross. What a gross thing to say. I'm just like, stop it. Stop demonizing things that are learning disabilities. It's gross. He does it all the time, but it's a continual thing and everyone just lets him go. But honestly, what? It's just, just. And I predict it will have bad effects anyway.

1:18:28

Are you really surprised, though?

1:19:04

No, but I just, I'M like, no. Like we, I, I think we should keep saying no to this.

1:19:07

I don't know. I, I put the, I put the sex in dyslexia. Wait, Sexy dyslexia. Sexy dyslexia.

1:19:11

Anyway. Anyway, that's good. Got it. I got it. Anyway. You're grotesque. I'm sorry. I think we have to call these out all the time. And I'm not angry about it. It's just we want to hear from you.

1:19:17

My favorite STR stripper has dyslexia. Her name was Density.

1:19:29

I like Grant Shake that.

1:19:37

Talk about character and being a good manager. Try to compete with my stripper density. My dyslexic stripper density. Yeah, right. Okay, let's see who wins the iHeart podcast of the Year award.

1:19:39

Density should be president. Anyway, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot to submit a question for show or call 85551 pivot. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week because there's so much news.

1:19:53

Today's show was produced by Lara Neyman, Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Intertod engineered this episode. Manola Moreno edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Burroughs, Mia Silvera and Dan Shalon. Nashak Kuro as voxmead is executive producer of podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine@nymag.com pod we'll be back next week for a breakdown of all things tech and business density. That's good.

1:20:12

Support for the show comes from Virgin Atlantic. Every trip you take is special. That's why for every flight, you need a crew that makes you feel special showing up for you like the VIP you are. Virgin Atlantic offers warm personalized service from the moment you step on board. Its upper class cabin features four course

1:20:48

signature dishes, private suites with fully lay flat beds and hours of award winning in flight entertainment.

1:21:07

Make the journey as exceptional as the destination. When you fly Virgin Atlantic.

1:21:13

Go to virginatlantic.com to learn more.

1:21:18