Under-the-Radar Trade Candidates With Wosny Lambre. Plus, Alperen Sengun and Jalen Duren on Their Teams' Successes.

This episode is brought to you by Mikkel Oub Ultra. When you pull off a superior play like blocking a winning shot to push the game into overtime, it feels good. It even gives you shivers sometimes. All the best in worms are served, ice cold like that, just like Mikkel Oub Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. Ultra is a superior light beer with only 95 calories and a crisp refreshing taste. And you know what makes it even more superior? Mikkel Oub Ultra is giving fans like you the chance to win some incredible prizes, including courtside seat tickets. Mikkel Oub Ultra superior is worth playing for. Enter now at mikkelobultra.com slash courtside. Mikkel Oub Ultra courtside 25-26, no purchase necessary. Open U.S. Residence 21 or over begins on October 1st, 2025 and ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods, the official rules at mikkelobultra.com slash courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. All right, coming up on a loaded Zach Lowe show. It feels like we're kind of coming off the All Star break now that the cup is over. There's been this nice little break. We got Trey Young coming back tonight. It feels like we're entering a new phase of the season almost. Big was my old colleague, my fellow Mets fan. It's been a sad time for us on that front. We're here to talk about the cup, the Cavalier slumping, yet again, another horrible loss last night to the bulls. What does that mean for the future? Under the radar trade possibilities, all the talk has been about Yanis and the point guards that no one seems to want, and the king's big names will make $50 million. What are some smaller trades that we could see? What are some off the beaten path trades that we could see? What should the Clippers do? Are the bucks actually trying to buy? Are the Hawks going to make a little upgrade? The Pistons, the Rockets, we get into all that, some names to watch, and then we're joined by two centers with All Star hopes this year. It's great to talk to them. Alper and Shen Gu from the Houston Rockets and Jalen Durin from the Detroit Pistons having a breakout year for the 21 and five Pistons. We talk about their journeys, their teams, some funny stories. It's good stuff coming up on the Zach Loeschow. This episode of the Zach Loeschow is presented by Amazon Prime. The holidays are here and they move quick. Luckily, Prime's fast free delivery is your miracle play, getting whatever you need there fast. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait. From stocking stuffers to that perfect gift for the MVP in your life, it's on Prime. Head to amazon.com slash prime to shop now. Welcome to the Zach Loeschow. Yes, the Zach Loeschow. It's not the low post anymore. Big was no fouls given with Danny Green and Paul Pierce just back from Vegas. You win any money? No, I'm not a crazy big gambling guy. Like at best, I'll do like take 50 bucks, maybe 100 bucks and play gambling and try my luck. But then I was staying at the win and the table started like $50 there. So I was like, yeah, I'm not gambling. That's enough where I stopped enjoying gambling like 10 years ago. It just became stressful to me and like I suddenly I'm down like $800 and four minutes at a blackjack table. Like how did this happen to me? Why is why am I doing this? How you doing, buddy? I miss you. I'm doing good, man. Happy to be back with you guys. Happy to be back on the ringer airwaves, man. One thing we're not going to talk about is the New York Mets. We're just going to leave them over here. Let the off season play out. Let it unfold. Okay, we're going to talk about trades and under the radar trade candidates. The conceit of this is all the trade chatter in podcast world and column world has been focused on Yanis, the three point guards that I'm not sure anyone really wants. John Morant, Trey Young and Lamello Ball and the Kings guys who I know nobody really wants other than maybe some bonus and but like people are overlooking all sorts of other interesting possibilities. So we're going to get to those. But first was I have a bone to pick with the greatest game show of all time, Jeopardy. My phone started blowing up last night about 719 p.m. Eastern time. Numbers I didn't even have in my phone. Hey, you were a clue on Jeopardy. No photo sent just like, is this a scam? Am I being lied to? Then the photos start coming in and here's the clue was, here's the clue. First of all, an honor. Alex Trebek, RIP, a god among men. Ken Jennings, I just don't know well enough. He was obviously great at the show. The clue, Zach Lowe's NBA podcast is punningly called this, like the area near the basket where the big men mix it up. So bucket list moment, getting on Jeopardy. My name's right there. My phone's blowing up. Is it possible that they record these episodes like 18 months in advance? Because my show has not been called the low post for 14 or 15 months now. So my question is, so not only is that a little jab, it's a little jab, but my dad watched the show after my mom went to bed about 10 o'clock. He texted me, congratulations on making Jeopardy. FYI, nobody got the answer. I was like, yeah, thanks for rubbing that one in. So here's my question. If this was not taped, if this was taped recently, what if someone rang in and was like, what is the Zach Lowe show? Incorrect. You lose $800. And it costs them like the lead going into Final Jeopardy. Would they have a complaint to pose or would Jeopardy be able to say, hey, look, the low post feed still exists. It's up there. It might belong to ESPN, but people would colloquially whatever, say it's Zach's podcast. So no, you don't try to get cute with us. It just hurt my just a tiny, tiny bit. That's all. I would imagine they formulate these questions, and then they just decide whenever it might be a year plus. All right, we're using this now. And just didn't vet it. They probably just assumed the show was successful as the low post. Nobody could possibly want to end that. I've taken the Jeopardy test a bunch of times. Never got a whiff of interest from the powers that be. It's for the best. My nightmare is that I get on there. And I know people who have been on it and they talk about how you really do freeze, even with familiar subject matter that comes up. I had a buddy that went on huge baseball fan. Baseball was a category. Like you can't even do anybody in that completely choked, froze, knew the answers. And my nightmare is Final Jeopardy basketball. And I get it wrong. And that's my career. My career is over. Like I can't come back from that. Final Jeopardy acts you some guy about that was on the Minneapolis Lakers. And you don't know the answer. Anyway, the other thing that happened last night is we have to start with this. The Cleveland Cavaliers. I stood on Monday. I was at Def Con 2 with them. I'm elevating it to Def Con 1. They're 15 and 13. And they got ran off the floor in embarrassing fashion by the not very good Chicago Bulls. Transition defense, nonexistent. Bulls just fast breaking to basket after basket. Backdoor cuts all over the place. You want to tell me no Evan Mobley, fine. No Sam Merrill, no Max Streuths. They brought the Andre Hunter off the bench. He's like, let's throw this at the wall and see if it sticks. Maybe this will solve all our problems. Darius Garland, bad again. He's shooting 42% on twos for the season. Career low rate of shots at the rim, shooting less than 50% at the rim just looks like a broken player. And it was another game of like, hey, Donovan, can you bail us out of this one? I'm at Def Con 1 with Cleveland. I don't even know what they can do because they have the second apron issues. The guys that maybe could have moved the needle for them in a big trade are Garland and Allen. And both of those guys are just at rock bottom trade value wise. This looks pretty close to broken. And I'm at Def Con 1. Where are you? I'm the same, especially, I think there was this feeling when the season started. Oh, Garland's not back yet. He's a big part of the team. Yada, yada, yada, which I thought was a bit of cope even at the time because the truth of the matter is last year, they took Donovan Mitchell off the ball a little bit more and allowed Garland to kind of take over the point guard spot and actually own the position. And I thought it was to their betterment, but that doesn't mean that Donovan Mitchell can't in a pinch revert back to his Utah days. He loves having the ball in his hand. So this I did it like, oh, we don't have Garland. So we're so at a disadvantage. I just didn't buy that. You don't want to do that over the course of a big playoff series, but you should be able to withstand that against the Chicago Bulls, right? Against the Hornets or whatever. And so I thought that was a bit of cope. And then I heard some grumblings. And this is very early on that there might be a thing happening with the coach, that there might be some tuning out, or maybe the coach is starting to great, maybe whatever, there might be some tension. I'm like, man, it's a little bit too early to be coming off of a 61 season coach, coach of the year last year, right? Yeah, to be saying that. And then you just watch these guys play. And it's just a listlessness and a brotherlessness. And I know that they're missing a lot of shots. They went from the best three point shooting team to damn near the worst, which is just a crazy thing to do over the course of one season. But I think the main thing for me, Zach, is you come off of a season where you have this breakthrough in the regular season, you have this horribly disappointing playoff. And you would think these guys would come out the gate with something to prove super hungry. Like you got bounced in the second round, embarrassingly. Like it wasn't even close. Like you got smoked in this series. And instead, the opposite happens. And to me, it's almost like, I remember when the Atlanta Hawks made it to the conference finals in 21. And in the next season, they have like people like me had big expectations for them. And Trey Young is like, you know, once you taste the important games and the playoffs, it's hard to see you take the regular. It's like, bro, you're not the fucking 2002 Lakers, bro. Like you don't get to do this. Maybe you get to do this after a championship where you coast through the wreck. Like you don't get to do this after you got ran off the court in the conference finals, bro. Like, it's all, I just don't understand the mentality of the of the Cavs right now and how they're playing. Now, they'll get healthier. They can, they can paper this over with, well, you know, three point shooting ours is bad, opponents is good, that'll all regress, Max will get healthy, blah, blah, blah. I have no faith that Darius Garland is going to get healthy. Like this just seems to be a constant recurring issue. He had a whole off season and he came back unhealthy. And the toe is still bothering him. And you have to push off with your feet in basketball, like thousands of times every game. I like maybe two or three weeks ago, I did a, when the East was super muddled and it still kind of is from, from three to three to nine, I did a, would you take New York or New York plus Cleveland versus the field to make the finals? Now I would rephrase the question and basically like Cleveland's just in the field now with everybody else. I would, they look like a almost broken team. I'd put New York here. I'd put Detroit above Cleveland. I'd probably put Orlando above Cleveland if they get healthy. Like they need to, this team needs to get their shit together because I don't know, they had dreams of like, could we get into the honest Derby? Could we chase a big man like a Simone? The honest Derby? A triple J. The only way they even get into the honest Derby now is flipping Mowgli. And even that is like, they can't, they have to add money and they can't aggregate contracts. So they have to have a third team. And if I'm Milwaukee, like, is that, you know, evident of Mowgli is very good is the centerpiece of my team. I'm not, I'm not really, I mean, it's a great, he's a great player, but it just feels like they're kind of stuck with this team, basically, unless they can make a small move. I don't see a big one. I'm sorry, not having Ty Jerome and Max Drew should not make your team this much worse. Ty Jerome hasn't played one second. Everyone's like, Lonzo has been awful and Lonzo has not been good. Lonzo, Lonzo doesn't even want to look at the basket. He had two or three instances last night, backdoor cut, catches it under the rim. Doesn't it just kick it out? All he wants to do is shoot threes and pass, which is great if you're making threes, which he's not. And if your team has so many drivers everywhere else that they don't need you to take twos, they don't. But the other guy that they sort of exchanged for him hasn't, hasn't played one second. Yeah. So the Ty Jerome cope is just, it's just nonsense. I can't understand it other than these guys just seem disinterested in how things are going because a team like Miami and the Raptors, and yeah, they're playing way better than we thought they did. But when you watch them play, there's an energy and a focus to what they do. There's a purpose to how they play. Cleveland is way more talented than those teams, in my opinion, and way more accomplished than those groups, honestly. You can say what you want about Cleveland, but they've had a nice amount of regular season success for three years now. So the idea that that group can't figure out how to be better than 15 and 12, if I'm a Cavs fan, I'm really starting to get anxious and trying to understand why things are as horrible as they are at this moment. Well, they're ninth, and they're only two games in the lost come out of third. So again, you could spin it any way you want. But there are six games out of second. So their path to a, you know, we get a play in winner in the first round kind of coasts through that one, like, that's over. Their ceiling is third in the East and they don't look at team that can get there. But I'm not ready to just bury them quite yet. No, I'm not burying them. But like, there was a, I think there was a thought like the thinking man's basketball pundit was like, you know, everybody's talking nicks, but really the Cavs should be the favorites to come out of the East. That's dead and over for me. I like, I don't see it at all. I picked the nicks before the season to make the finals. I didn't feel super confident about it. They have a lot of questions to answer. Let's talk about them for a second. They look great. And I, you know, I was driving around yesterday a lot. I had to do a bunch of errands. And when I drive around, I like to listen to ESPN radio because it just, it just was like, this is what the generalists who are talking about every sport, this is how they're talking about basketball. The entire discourse was, and this happened on first take too, was whether it was ridiculous that the nicks were celebrating the NBA cup and Mad Dog has to ran about, you know, this is the title. This team hasn't won a title since 1972. This is a disgrace. And I'm like, no one, you know what they're doing? They're having fun. No one's mean mugging. No one's doing Pat Bev on the scores table forgetting them. They're just like, we want a thing. It's a half million bucks, which to our minimum salary players is quite a lot of money. It's a thing that we compete for. We're in Vegas. We won. No one's out here being like, this means something like, we're on a path to the finals now for sure. It's just like, they're just having fun because what else are they supposed to do? They want a thing. They're smiling. They're laughing. Why are we taking issue with like, no one with the nicks thinks they won the NBA championship. They just had a little fun. It's, I just think that's an insane take that they shouldn't be celebrating something that was obviously made into a competition. And two, people were, oh my God, the slurpage of the Spurs, oh yeah, three to four days after they beat OKC, like people were burying the nicks. People were like, yeah, yeah, the Spurs, they just beat the best team in the NBA. One of the best starts to the, in the history of the league. When he's here, he's unstoppable, plus 21, they're going to destroy the nicks. And the nicks came out and handle business. They should be proud of what they did. The magic were giving them fits to start the season. They've beaten them two times in a row. They should be proud that they went out and spanked the Spurs. Why shouldn't they celebrate this? The Spurs were trying their, their darkness to beat the nicks and the nicks handled them. And to me, the thing that I loved about the victory is, I do think that nicks are now more multiple in how they attack teams. Like I just really do. I think their offense is more dynamic in how they're attacking. Like there's more movement. There, there's more, I think I was listening to my God, Nate Duncan, he said in the magic game, they had 14 assisted baskets at the bat, at the, at the rim. Like that means they're generating incredible looks via their offensive scheme against a magic team that's known to be big, physical, really good defense. That's not what it was before. And they let Tom Tibbeto go because it's like, yo, we need to be different than what we've shown the previous two years. And what I'm seeing with the nicks is that they are different. And what I like is that the offense is definitely has more flow, more movement, less Jalen Brunson pounding the freaking rock three million times to get to a spot. And some of that still happens. Like that, that still exists in their offense a little bit, but the way things are happening, the way they could kill you in transition with Josh, Josh Hart, or they could bludgeon you on the offensive boards, like they did the Spurs, or they could be a movement backdoor cutting team, like they did the magic. I'm like, bro, this is how you win in the post season. You have multiple ways to kill people. And what I'm seeing out of the nicks is that they have a lot of ways now, and they're still developing it, right? A lot of ways to attack. And then you add to the fact that they still have this sort of gritty makeup that like being down doesn't affect them. They went down to the Spurs by 11 and it was just like, no, like, we've done this a million times before. We're not afraid of coming back against the team. I know if you're a Nick fan, it drives you crazy. But like, these are encouraging signs to me. The ball is really snapping, particularly in transition. They're sharing it. They're looking for each other. They look like a team. You can always tell when a team starts to believe in what the coaches are preaching and probably what the role players like Josh Hart and McKaylbridges are preaching. I mean, McKaylbridge is sort of an apex role player, but whatever. There was like the early hiccups of cats. Like, I'm figuring out where to get my shots at and like, is this really going to work? They look like a team who's sort of bought in like much like Cleveland looked like last year. Like, all right, oh yeah, this works. We're winning a lot of games this way. The bench showing up like that, Colek, Clarkson, Robinson was awesome. They still like Deuce's hurt, Shamet's hurt. I think they're going to probably try to get one more guy. I don't know who it is. It's probably going to be a small kind of salary. But to me, the other story of that game is to get to the finals, that's the Mitchell Robinson they need. And that's the one thing that makes me a little nervous about them because his health has been so up and down. I think without his defense, both on the perimeter and at the rim and without his offensive rebounding, they just, some of their diversity on offense comes from that. And I think they need 18 to 22 good Mitchell Robinson minutes against the best teams in the playoffs. 100% agree. Like the first half, honestly, they were getting cooked in the Luke Cornette minutes on defense. And it was just, I wanted to tear my freaking eyeballs out. I'm like, guys, you have to like, a team that's going to win the NBA championship is going to have to be able to play credible to really like make that lineup look bad. I'm sorry. Okay. De'Aaron Fox and Vacelle and Champani, I like all of those guys. Love Harry Barnes, Consumant Pro, Luke Cornette. I'm a fan. That lineup should not be able to drive efficient offense against a playoff championship caliber defense. And in the first half, that's what was happening. And if you looked at the plus minus, when he was like minus 18 or whatever the hell it was for the game, it was the Cornette minutes that the Knicks were getting smoked defensively. And then the second half slowly, but surely, and especially when towns went down, the Mitchell Robinson defensive units started to assert themselves. Mitchell Robinson and O.G. Ananobe, it's like, oh, okay, this is the team that I saw guarding the hell out of Boston last year. How good has Ananobe been this season? Like just this is the absolute peak of what they expected when they got him. And he's had health issues too. But if he plays like, I think he should be in the all-star conversation. He's been that good. By the way, it's funny how you mentioned these, like, if you're a serious team, you can't do X, Y, and Z. And we speak in these absolutes, and it sounds silly sometimes, but I have, we're going to talk about trades. Mine is with the Rockets. And I realized this guy is proving this wrong. Like, I watched the Rockets and I'm like, there's just too much Josh Akogi. Like, you can't be a serious championship contender starting this guy and playing him like 25 minutes a game. And yet he's shooting 41% from three. Now, they sometimes will close games by taking him out and putting Reed Shepard in. I do think they're a team now. They're over the tax. I think they're capped at the first neighbor. But they're a team. Let's leave the Van Vleet thing aside because he has a de facto no trade clause. But like, Capella plus Jay Chantate can go out and get you some like, 10 to $12 million player maybe who can help you. I just feel like they need another one other guy. Like, I'm a, like Corey Kispert, if they can get up to that seller, I'm not sure. Just like, one more guy because there's just a color. Maybe it's, I mean, is Finney Smith, I heard from someone today that he's actually getting closer to like participating in the season, but people, I forgot that they had him on the team. I mean, maybe he's the guy, maybe he's their trade acquisition. I don't know. That would be a great, I think that would be a great pickup if he could actually get to reasonably healthy. And he's just played in a lot of big games too. I think he's just, he's just such a smart player, tough player. He's not going to be a minus. I don't think he's going to be your advantage in any series, but like he won't completely cook you. I mean, for the Rockets and the Spurs in Detroit, like three teams that I think just need more shooting, the guys that I thought about were Porter Jr. and Sam Houser. We know Houser is, the South Ticks want to shed more salary. We know they're trying to figure out how to, and I know that Brad Stevens has come out to, if we need to be buyers, we'll be buyers. I'm not buying it, but I think Sam Houser, as somebody who's gettable, I think those three teams that are serious teams, especially the Spurs who think like, all right, maybe we could crash a conference finals party and Detroit who has to feel like, yo, we can go to the finals this year. I think Sam Houser and MPJ are two guys that team should be thinking about because MPJ is doing a lot of like, he's doing a lot of heavy lifting in Brooklyn for one of the worst teams in the league, but on a real team, he'll be actually do way less. And I think he'll be just even that much more effective for it. I don't know, like see now, when you talk about extending him out past season and all of that stuff in the summer, look, that's above my pay grades act. But I'm talking about for this season, definitely a team that needs shooting really badly, like the Rockets, like San Antonio, like Detroit should be looking into MPJ on the high end, Houser on the low end. So I'm going to park MPJ over here because I'm going to get back to him for another team. Yeah. You just nailed three of the teams that I think, you know, San Antonio, the discourse has been all about Yanis. That's done. Like they're not trading any of these guards for Yanis. Zach, can we be honest about some of these fantasy trades that a lot of people in our industry like, I know everybody loves San Presti. I know everybody loves the Thunder. They're so smart. They're so this Yanis ain't going to OKC. No, but I don't even, I've never even discussed that. You know why they won the championship in their 24 and 2. Why would I blow up? Like these are the same people that didn't want to trade for a backup big. And we're just like, yo, let's just let us see how it plays out. Got smoked for not having a backup big against Dallas and then went and did it. They're going to blow up the nucleus of their team. The chemistry that they painstakingly put together that's resulted in a 24 and 2 team greatest point differential in the history of life. So go bring in a massive ego superstar like that you now have to make your entire life up. That makes no sense. And also, is anyone serious actually suggesting them as a suitor? People are suggesting that that should be something that is looked at. That you just, you know, you make it around chat and a bunch of the pieces and some chat home. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The guy who's going to make it all NBA team potentially this year at age, whatever he is. Yeah. Yeah. So let's let's get that out of here. I feel the same way about the Spurs. It's over. It's over. Castle's been castle and Harper have been too good. Why am I doing this? And also, why do people think Giannis wants to demand a trade from Milwaukee to go to San Antonio? That's the other variable is at some point, whether it's now. Giannis has a say in this. Yeah. Now or this summer when the extension offer is, I keep saying this, when the rubber hits the road, if he saw on the box this off season and they offer him that extension and he don't sign it, then it's over. Zach, it's over. But, but okay, we'll get that. But Spurs, Spurs Rockets Pistons, I have like Giannis Spurs over. Like they've got to turn a Linux plus three second round picks or so hand plus three second round picks or two second round picks into something that fits what they need. I thought about Kisbert for them. I thought about like, probably the Pelicans guys are too far out of their price range. Herb Jones and Trey Murphy, the third. I thought about Kobe White's probably a little small. They have too many guards already or they have a lot of guards already. Excuse me, some wing who can shoot for them. Detroit, I thought about a small thing like Paul Reed and Marcus Sasser and three second round picks for Corey Kisbert or two second round picks for Corey Kisbert. Just a guy, like Najee Marshall is a guy I look at that can help some of these teams. Just give me one more guy. He's not a great shooter, but one more guy who can give me 15 minutes in a playoff series. All three of those teams that you mentioned, I think are, should be having those kinds of conversations. Yeah, especially Detroit because I think Detroit needs a secondary ball handler too. I don't like the extent that they're asking him to be the Luca Mavs version of Luca Donchich. Yeah, where they're asking Kate to be that. I don't want to say he's too much of a birding fan, but it feels like this should be a little bit more diversity in the attack if they want to go to the finals for real. That's something that I'm like, maybe they need a little bit more ball handling, but really, I think what's most important, because I think even Luca has proved it, is that really, man, you need to make some big shots. You need a guy that can be relied upon, not even just make some, be able to get a big shot off. And I think that's the thing about Duncan Robinson and Toby Harris, those being your go-to knockdown shooters, I just think you need a little bit more than that. Yeah, I can hear the people in Detroit saying, well, wait a second, Duncan Robinson's an elite shooter and he is. Last year you had two in Malik Beasley and Tim Hardaway Jr. Could you use another? Maybe. You also have this sort of quietly simmering is the, how does a Sar Thompson fit fourth quarter offense in the playoffs? And like maybe he does because they have so much interior passing and toughness and rebounding. Maybe it doesn't matter because they can play the two centers together or whatever. I just think they're an interesting team. Can we go back to Michael Porter Jr.? Yes. So the other reason why I'm calling a halt to some of the honest stuff is the buzz in Mark Stein and Jake Fisher have reported this and I think it's true. The buzz is the Bucks are trying to go the other way and sniffing around for, can we add to our team in one last ditch effort to play Kate Yandes. Now they have Kuzma at 22 million. They have Portis at 13 million. Miles Turner, I mean, it's four years, a hundred something million. I don't know how many teams are going to be that interested, but they've got stuff. They have one first-round pick to trade. Could they sell super high on Ryan Rollins as part of a package? I don't know, but here are some names I thought about from Milwaukee. If they're really serious about buying hard, the desperation index is high. Michael Porter Jr. was one of them. Any thoughts? Look, and Michael Porter Jr. was kind of limited in last year's playoffs, right? But just think about what Michael Porter Jr. was able to do for Denver against OKC. He only has one year left after this too. He's not on a long contract. Yeah. What he was able to do for the Nuggets, right? See how limited the Nuggets were by having Michael Porter. Why is Yandes, and I get it, you know what? You do need a bona fide threat around. If your offense is just going to be Yandes at 30 feet, figuring it out in the fourth quarter, 30 feet from the basket, dribbling the ball at the top of the key, figuring it out. Yeah. Porter Jr. is way better to have than Cal Kuzma in terms of his gravity and the way defense is at the hug on Tim. Sure. What is that really actually amount to? I don't get that. I just don't get that. And this is why I'm not closing the door. And I said this with Bill the other night. Zach Levine. I've heard the Zach Levine thing, but that's absurd. That's another one I'm going to give you more. Because this is like they don't have a lot to trade and they're desperate. And so they're going to have to get a flawed guy on a contract that his team doesn't want anymore. And those are the kinds of names that you're going to hear. And this is why I said this with Bill after the cup the other night. I'm not slamming the door on a Yandes trade in season, even though summer has always been more likely and gets more and more likely with every one of these Western Conference juggernauts that is just sort of like, we're not in, is he's out for a couple more weeks. They are, I think 10 and 16, 11 and 16. They're going to be out of it. If they go two and 10 in their next 12 games, like it's over. There's no saving the season at that point. I'm sorry, there just isn't. And if it does get to that point, does he actually step up and say, it's over? And then you still have some teams that I think, like I think Atlanta has to have a meeting about it because they have all those Bucks picks and they have Lisa Shea and they have the Porzinga thing. And I think the heat have to have a meeting about it because why the hell not? Like what, what I mean, like, I mean, Rich Paul is advocating on your airwaves that Atlanta get into it and trade his client to do so, which they're not going to do. Like they're not going to, Jalen Johnson is an all-star nightly triple double threat, 23 years old or something. They're not doing that. I would be shocked if they put Jalen Johnson in the honest deal. The heat, why not? I mean, Toronto, I don't really see it, but they have stuff. I'm not slamming the door away, but like MPJ, Levine has been mentioned. Bill asked me about James Harden trades the other night, and he said, I have one team that I think could and or should trade for James Harden. And he asked me to guess, and I said Milwaukee, and he immediately said, no way, Dr. Rivers isn't going to allow it. I had forgotten about the Dr. Rivers variable. But the honest variable, James Harden is the guy that said, the honest has no bag. He's just dribbled dunk guy. Like he, he, James Harden single-handedly started the honest has no bag thing. And they had a back and forth. Maybe they've mended the situation. I find that to be highly unlikely that what you do to make Yannis happy is bring in one of his tormentors. Who's going to dribble all the time and turn you back into a screener? But like beggars can't be choosers. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. The holidays move quick like a fast breakdown in the court. Luckily, Prime's fast free delivery means everything arrives on time. Holiday shopping, man, it sneaks up like a surprise double team. Suddenly you're scrambling. We've got a kid. So believe me, Prime is running the show this time of year. Gifts, wrapping paper, last minute, uh-oh moments. It's all covered. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait. Need some holiday magic? It's on Prime. Head to amazon.com slash prime to shop now. I'm going to throw one more name at you. Let's say the bucks are hell bent. We're not, we're not trading Yannis this season. It's, we're just not going to do it. Let's say the heat think, you know what, this hero, Norm Powell pairing long term, it's one or the other. Heroes from Wisconsin. Do you, is there enough in the bucks kitty to get him? I probably don't think so, but that's another name I bet they would look at. I mean, I'm sure a lot of bucks fans would wince at that. And I think if the heat could scrounge up, figure out a way to get them a few two at the minimum two future first somehow, that this would be fine. But I think what bucks fans need to understand about what they're getting back for Yannis is that when the minute they decided that they weren't going to trade Yannis after he didn't sign their extension, meaning now I can trade him to whoever the hell I want because it's two years guaranteed of his services and not just one and a half or one, which means that now Yannis can just tell teams like if you again, let's just say the Spurs were hell bent on bringing Yannis and it's in the new Twin Towers. And Yannis is just like, bro, I'm not signing no extension with y'all. They can't make a deal. No. So now teams that want Yannis, they have to have some kind of understanding that he's interested in an extension with them. And because you're not the Lakers, where you just trade for Luke and just know like, I'm LA. He's resigning once we offer him an extension. You're not that San Antonio. And so once the bucks basically handicapped themselves by saying, oh, you know what, we still think we could talk this guy into it. It's the longest goals, the worst the return is going to be. Period. Well, it's funny you say that because I remember when the most recent Champ story broke a few weeks ago, I was calling around the front offices everywhere and spitballing with 1GM. We were talking about the summer and how could this still be a summer thing because that's when he's eligible for the extension or an offseason thing. I think for a new team, by the way, he's not even eligible to sign it until October, which is even longer. And this person said to me, maybe, but I don't buy the idea that the bucks have more leverage in the summer than they do now because now or at this trade deadline, I get him for two playoff runs instead of one for sure. And it's why Miami is interesting to me. Now, to be clear, Bucks fans, I'm not sure Miami is enough because as much as people are talking about how, well, teams are going to be more cautious about trading for superstars in the wake of Phoenix and Clippers, Janus is Janus. They're going to get a lot for Janus whenever they trade for him. So I'm not sure if Miami has enough, even though they throw all the picks that they can put in, even if they throw hakes and everything. But if I'm Miami, I do look at it and say, if we can get in there and it's hero, hakes, where's got to be in it or I'm not interested if I'm Milwaukee and a bunch of picks, at least I've got Bam, Powell, Mitchell, Wiggins, some other young guys. That's probably more interesting today and for the next three years than anything else that's going to happen for my team. So that's why I can't close the door. And by the way, I have an apology to make to Bill. His hardened deal was hardened for the Lamello ball. And I said, that's insane. I don't see why anybody would do that. And that's not the apology. He then followed up by pitching a Lamello ball for DeMonte Sabonis player for player swap. And I said, we're in crazy town now. And the more I thought about it, I was like, depending on what Charlotte wants, and I suspect what they want to do is get another high draft pick. So this probably disqualifies this trade. That's not crazy because I can be like, you know what, Brandon Miller, Connipoll, it's your team now. We'll bring Sabonis in to facilitate that screens. It's going to be 18 and 12, play hard. He's not great. The vendor is going to play hard. And for Sacramento, I get to sell all Lamello. He's exciting. Like I actually don't, in retrospect, I owe Bill an apology. I don't think that's a crazy trade. I don't think it's crazy at all. And the reason why, if I'm Charlotte's front office, I like my two newer young guys and Brandon Miller, who I've been high on since I watched him admittedly for two games in the SEC tournament, but I fell in love with him after two games. And Connipoll, who's obviously, who's the clear favorite for rookie of the year, and surround them with competence. And you might even look at Connipoll and Brandon Miller as less talented than Lamello Ball. But you know what they are? Two people who strike me as serious basketball players, two people who take their job deadly serious. And I don't know that you could say that about Lamello Ball at all. And if I'm moving in the direction of my new young guys, I don't need this Lamello Ball distraction anymore. I don't need us pretending this guy's the face of our franchise and who's anchoring our future. No shot. No thank you. And so to me, yeah, bringing in a veteran who's going to be professional and competent and, you know, bring sort of good professional morals and accountability to my organization. I'll take that. And like, I love this idea that they should be getting some high traffic. Why? Why is anybody giving something? What is Lamello Ball accomplished in the NBA? I am a Lamello Ball optimist relative to consensus. You know, you hear like coaches really like him, teammates really like him. I think he has good intentions about making his game more serious, time, score, shot selection, all that. And somewhere between like the huddle and the game, the intentions just disappear in his brain. He's like, I get to do a one leg and three now with 45 seconds left in a game and 20 on the shot clock. This is cool. I do think like, I think he probably has more trade value than Shrey Young. It's close. The Morant to me right now is a complete no go. Like, I don't think I could touch John Morant the way he's playing. I don't think I'm giving up anything other than like super duper dead money for John Morant. You know what's funny about that is I'm the highest on John Morant than any of these other guys and the other two unwanted star point guards. And the reason is I've seen him put it on the floor. Like, I've seen John Morant be elite. I've seen John Morant be a top 10 NBA player before. It's been a minute. I admit it. It's been a long time, but I've seen him do this. I've seen him against serious opponents against really good, tough half court defenses, generate offense, you know, generate offense in like situations that weren't ideal, meaning Memphis didn't have the greatest amount of spacing around him. And in the half court, I've seen John Morant produce against some great teams, great defenses. I can't say that about these other two dudes. I really don't. I don't feel that way. And I just, I just can't believe at 26 that John Morant can't get back to what he was doing three years ago. I just, I refuse to believe it. Again, having your worst season ever at age 26 is a gigantic red flag. It's like the flag that they bring out at NFL games when they bring out that big NFL flag that like 20 people have to hold at the same time. That's the size of the John Morant season, the red flag of his season. But for me, John is the one person I still believe in in that trio. Wow. I mean, look, I get what you're saying. Like I, I fell, I fell head over heels for John Morant four years ago, five years ago. He seemed like a guy who lifted his teammates up, who played a style that made them better, that made them want to play harder. And that's just all falling apart. And he's got 40 this year, 42, 45. And here's the bottom line. If he can't make shots in the paint and right now he can't, I just don't know how he's helping you win. I mean, they beat the wolves last night without him. Now the wolves didn't have Anthony Edwards either. But okay, back to the Clippers and then we're going to go pivot to a bunch of rapid fire. It's, it's, you will very commonly hear people say when you pitch hard in trades or I just don't, I, Kawhi, I just can't imagine is getting traded. Well, but why would the Clippers do that? Steve Ballmer wants to win, they don't control their draft pick, like they have, they get no benefit. And I get that. And there's some truth to that. I also don't really believe it is dispositive because, hey, they're, they're 6 and 20. Like it's just, it's not happening no matter what Steve Ballmer wants. They're 6 and 20. If I can start, and yeah, the pick is, the pick's gone. It's a sunk cost. No matter what I do, it's gone. If it's first, it's gone. If it's 10th, it's gone. If it's eighth, it's gone. If I can start recouping assets for the next phase of my team, even if it's just a first here, four seconds here, another first here, maybe it's why, it's why, although I keep hearing that they're not going to trade Zubots, you know, I'm sure there are a bunch of teams that would inquire about Zubots. We're going to talk about the Hawks in a second. They probably need another center. Like if someone bulls them over for Zubots, I think they should do it because I don't know what I mean, I think they should at least consider it because their whole vision is off seasons in two or three years in the future, Capspace, Los Angeles, Inuit, that's great. Like none of those superstar free agents are coming to play with James Harden and Kawhi Leonard in two years. Yeah, no shot. That's not the draw. So I would consider it more heavily if I were them. I think I'm a bit of a different mind in this sense. Like tearing it down for the sake of tearing it down, I just don't get it. What would they get? Like what would be an attractive Harden haul to you for what the Clippers are trying to accomplish? I mean, his market is going to be so limited because of his style of play and how bad he's been defensively that that's why Milwaukee is really the only team I could think of. And even then, like if it's Kuzma plus Filler plus Rollins plus the one pick they have, I might actually do that. Like that might be an a Zubots is the one. Like if Boston called and was like, we'll give you this two first round picks plus whatever. If Atlanta called and was like, we'll give you X, Y, and Z, I'd consider it. Anyway, Atlanta is another team I want to talk about because given the Porzingis illness issue and you know, Trey's coming back tonight against Charlotte, we're going to see how he looks. They're a team that again, it's all been Yannis, Yannis, Yannis, Yannis, Yannis. And I understand why I've been beating the drum on them as a Yannis team. But if they decide no, they have enough assets to go fill out their team. Like they need a backup center or a starting center, depending on what they want. Pretty badly, they could use another guard. Like if I'm them, a small deal, for instance, would bring me Kisper and Marvin Bagley, who's been like sneakily awesome for the Wizards this year. There's all the guys we mentioned before, the Najee Marshalls, the Sadiq Bayes, the Pelicans guys get too rich for their blood. Another guy that I actually thought, because the Hawks are so kind of just random in how they play offense with screens, cuts and handoffs. And sometimes you wonder like, do they have without, now this is without Trey, do they have a go to half court in the muck? They're asking a lot of Alexander Walker in the, in the cross like, and he's been game, but Jesus, they're asking him to do a lot. So I actually, for this reason, considered not in a big role, not in a go to fourth quarter role, just in a supplementary offense from nothing role. Like is there a derosin trade for the Hawks? I thought I'll be awesome. I can't think of a lot. I mean, he's been not good this year, but they strike me as a team that could use a bucket getter for 22 minutes a game. I don't love the fit. I don't love it, but you like it. That's, that's one of my ideas. I like that. I like that because it's low cost and, you know, it's not a big commitment of what it does. Like this is the thing too, with younger guys developing guys, LeBron, you know, KD, Giannis, when they're at their peak, you can skimp on the role players. Like the role play needs to be like kind of good at one function. And these incredible players, these Hall of Fame, First Valley guys, Harden and Houston, for instance, they're going to paper over so much of the deficiencies of the role players around them. Younger guy like Jalen Johnson, who was ascended to all-star level, but he can't just carry guys around. Like they need a baseline level of competence that the biggest stars just don't. Right? Like because they just make things happen and make things easier. They draw so much attention. They make life easier for the role players around them. So I think the role's in meets that level of just like, he's just overqualified for the level of competence that's needed. Or even, you know, on a lower level, I see you had been maturing on the list of guys where it's just like, all right, like, I don't want him anchoring my crunch time offense. But like when the ball gets swung to him and we got the defense scrambling, like he could make some decent decisions and every now and again, get to the line, hit a big shot. I think that kind of guy is definitely needed because again, I love what Alexander Walker has been doing this year. I love the signing at the time that it happened, but he's just being stretched to the limits of what he's capable of doing. Mathurin is an aim I had. I thought initially like, he's been pretty damn good for the Pacers this year. I wondered, obviously eligible for a new contract this summer, didn't get an extension. I kind of wondered like, did he play his way out of the trade conversation? Is he now part of the Pacers core? The gut I have after talking to people around the league is they would listen. Like I think they'd still listen. I know Toronto's looked at him. He's Canadian. I don't love the fit in Toronto. I think that's probably done. I know the Lakers have been interested in him in the past. I think, well, I've heard anyway that they have. The Lakers need more not always locked in perimeter deep. I love the stand out one. I like other trades for them. You mentioned Alexander Walker. The Wolves, I think are just completely under the radar right now at 17 and 10. Now they haven't beat a lot of good teams. They've had a lot of absolutely insane late game meltdowns, which is one of the things that they just do 10 times a year is just lose games in ways that you can't even believe are possible. And I think they realize they need another ball handler and they're trying bones now. He's been decent. Dillingham is wildly up and down. I think Jake Fisher reported that they've looked at Kobe White. I think that's true. It's just hard for them. If you look at their cap sheet, all they're big to medium sized salaries are good players. Like I don't want to trade Devon Chenzo. I don't want to trade Nas. I don't want to trade the guy we just drafted. So am I compiling Dillingham plus Shannon? I mean, I don't even want to trade Terran Shannon. I like him. And Conley, look, he's hurt. He's old. It's getting close to the end. I don't think knowing Tim Conley and how he's treated other veteran players. I don't think they're dumping Mike Conley on a bad team. If they trade Mike Conley, who's very valuable to their culture and still will come in now and then and organize the offense that needs organization. If they actually move him, I think they'll take care of him. And so I can't trade him to the fucking bulls for whatever. The guy I would be trying to steal off the bulls is Desumnu. That's the guy I would be trying to get. He's hurt now, too. They were saying on the broadcast, he has two thumb sprains. Both his thumbs are sprained at the same time. He's another name that I would look at. Colin Sexton and Charlotte. These are all guys. But if I'm Minnesota, I can't get up to the money for Sexton, I don't think. Yeah, that's the thing. To me, Minnesota, if they're upgrading their ball handling, because again, Conley is just the injuries are nagging. He's older. They're upgrading their ball handling. I look at Kobe White on the high end and Sexton on the lower end of that. And if Minnesota can't do it, I think Dallas needs to be trying to get somebody who can dribble on their team. Whether that be Kobe White or Sexton. Again, I like that because to me, if you're developing Cooper Flag, again, you can't just have just flotsam around him. I get it. You still want to have, you control your pick this year. You're not trying to win or whatever. But I think for the sake of his game, to be learning the best habits, it needs to be around competent NBA players. And so to me, Dallas should be trying to get somebody who can dribble. I like that idea. The way they're doing this brigade sort of platoon, excuse me, ball handling by committee that they're trying right now, I'm not into it. Are you keeping AD in the current NBA landscape in this scenario? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. They should be trying to get something, somebody young, some draft picks. They should be trying to get something for AD. And also, me personally, selfishly, I want to see AD in the playoffs. I just think the world of AD's game, I get it. He's injured a lot. And it's been a weird last year with him getting traded from LA and the weirdness around Nico and Dallas and the injuries that have just nagged him. But I'd like to see, I thought AD should have been a Detroit candidate. I hate that fit. I totally disagree. I hate it. Why? Tell me on it. Tell me why. I just think about the pick and roll partnership, the early Laker days between AD and LeBron. He just hasn't really, because as the LeBron has diminished and teams have decided that like, we could just switch that pick and roll. Like he hasn't had an elite pick and roll partner, no disrespect to Austin Reeves. Since that 2020, 2021 Lakers, or even 2021 when he got hurt against Phoenix, I think in that setting, AD will, like he's one of the three, four best finishers in the league, man, when he has a elite pick and roll partner. And I think him and Cade would be incredible in pick and roll. I really didn't think that. What is Jalen Duren who's coming up on this podcast, by the way? What is he doing during all this? That's where it gets a little bit, a little bit muddled. And you think if they're orienting their identity around being like, yo, you're just not going to ever score against us. We're going to be like, okay, see, we're going to be impossible to score against. And offense is like, yo, we, you know, we have one super elite guy and we kind of scrounge for buckets. You know, every now and again, we make 19% of our threes in a game, but our calling card is defense. But I really do think him and Cade, and again, the spacing would be slightly cramped, but I think him and Cade would be dynamic pick and roll partners. Interesting. It all comes down to price for all of these teams. Like, and that's why I'm not sure Dallas will find a trade that it likes because everyone is going to try to steal him on the cheap given his health issues. I don't love the fit for Detroit. And I think their bigs have just played well. Like they've just proven me wrong, where I'm just like, man, you know what, they're probably all set at bigs. Well, and the other thing that's funny is now that, you know, there's been injuries, obviously, Lively's out for the season, I think Gafford's been in and out, but it is, it is a little bit funny, not for Mavs fans. There's almost nothing funny going on for Mavs fans that has not been for a while that after this whole like, we're going super big, AD is a four, we're going to have just tremendous size all over the floor. And all of us were like, I think AD's, haven't we had the AD? AD is a five fit. He's never been a four. You know what, maybe now he's a full time five in Dallas again. That gets all over. The five thing is just that narrative has just killed me for five years, six years now. This idea that AD, he doesn't like playing center. It's like, bro, it's so clearly his best position. They're not even comparable. All right, I'm going to give you some wild cards. Jared Jackson Jr. No, wow. Why not? Jared Jackson Jr. for AD, straight up. No, no, no, no, I'm just saying generally, like a name that could really shake up the trademark if you were available. Oh yeah, to me, this season was a proven year for him and Jamarra. If you guys are the guys who you guys think you are, the way you talk about yourselves, the way you puff out your chest during games, we should be a quality team this year. And when or if you're not, you guys are expendable. I think Memphis's front office has given these guys the opportunity to be the players that they so clearly perceive themselves to be. And they're just not. They're just not. And so as much as, you know, I remember the early chat around Jared Jackson's like, is this the next Timmy? Is this the next KG? Well, I remember all of that. He is so clearly not. And he's a good player, but he's just not. He's just not in a franchise. He's not a defense anchor. He's definitely not somebody offence, anchor your offense around. He's just not that elite kind of player. He also has a $53.5 million player option in 2029, 2030. He's under contract for a long time. I think Memphis would want a pretty big haul for him, which again, mitigates against the trade. I just keep coming back to Toronto with these big guys. Hurdle has been so meh for them. The problem is like, I never understood why they extended his contract over the summer. I hated, I just didn't get it. And he's under contract for the same length of Jared Jackson Jr. Half the price, but it's like 30 million, 27 million for Yacca Pertle. I don't know who's like hungry to trade for that contract, but Toronto has all their picks and all their swaps. And I'm just monitoring them. A couple other wildcards. Keon Ellis, everybody wants Keon Ellis except the Kings, who can extend him on February 9th after the trade deadline. Shouldn't he be a Laker candidate? Sure. Good defender, secondary baller. He's good. I don't understand. He should be a Laker target. I don't understand what he did to Doug Christy. I don't understand a lot of what Doug Christy do to the damn owner that he's still coaching that outfit. That seems absurd to me. Yeah, there was a lot of noise there pre-season from some of their players like, yeah, we hear all the criticism. We can't wait to prove it wrong. We know it all. Turns out the haters were right. The haters have a point, Zach. Phoenix with, you know, Dylan Brooks and Jalen Green hasn't played and Mark Williams is eligible for a new contract over the summer. Didn't get an extension. I don't think they're doing anything. I think they're loving life right now. They should be happy with the 500 product. The fact that your product is 500 right now is a home run because your organization has been mismanaged into the ground. And the fact that Booker is basically, I'm not going to lie, Danny Green yelled at me for this, but I raised an eyebrow when they gave Booker that extension over the summer. Like you should have. It's like, it's a lot of money, man. The dude that I've seen the previous two seasons, basically the dude that I've seen since Chris Paul left is not worthy of this deal. Now the dude that played with Chris Paul, yeah, he's worthy of that deal. And I think he's played closer to that level this season. And, you know, because I talked to somebody in the Booker camp over the summer and they gave me the whole spiel about, oh, New York was never a thing. This idea that he was dying to play with Carl Towns is never a thing. It's been sons for life forever. And I was just like, raise my eyebrow. I felt the same stuff. I was like, okay. But then I'm like, yo, you know, maybe there's something to this whole sons for life, Mr. Son, Devin Booker thing. I can't believe I look, I have been a huge Devin Booker guy. He is an amazing basketball player. You can't, you can't not raise an eyebrow at $70 million in 2030 for a guy shooting 30% from three 33% last year, 36, 35 to two years before that, 34, 35, 33 and other seasons, one year of 38. Like he's really, really good. That's just, that's the kind of money you pay for undisputed number one guy on a good team. And it's fair to wonder is Devin Booker going to be that in 2030 last team. I don't know what Portland's mentality is going to be. They really wanted to make the play in last year. They're still pretty solid. They're 10 and 16. They're in 11th, but Utah will tank their way out of the play and Utah is in 10th. They have no point guards right now. Like Scoot Henderson, I think I need a wellness check on Scoot Henderson. I don't know where he is or what's happening. I mean, he's injured. I know that he's on the sideline. I'm just being facetious. They have extra picks. They also have this Jeremy Grant contract. Like if they got a good offer for that, would they pivot the other way? They have Thibault's expiring contract. They're just, even aside from the fact that they own the rights to some bucks picks in the future, they're just a team. I don't know. I have no idea what they're going to do, but I would be shocked if they did nothing at the trade deadline. Yeah, it felt like at the end of last year, they found an identity for themselves, which is like a major hurdle for any young aspiring team. I remember when Orlando and Detroit early on became like, oh, these guys are like tough and physical and defensive. That's their thing that they bring into every matchup. That's something that they can build on. We've seen them take it a little bit further from there. Detroit, they've taken it a lot further. It felt like something similar to that was happening to Portland at the back half of last season with their own defense and the Chimani-Kamara thing and everybody going crazy. Turns out you need people that can dribble. You need competent backcourt play in the NBA that they just don't have it. And you need people who can shoot. Shoot. Yeah, people that can make shots. Yeah, these are things that matter in the league. Drew Holiday, I'm not sure when he's coming back. I'm not sure when Scoot's coming back, but those are their point cards and they're not playing right now. All right, big waz. Anyone else you want to hit? Are we good? I just want to say one last thing about the honest thing that I'm truly fascinated by, and it's the way he's conducting this trade request that to me, I'm not going to lie, Zach feels like a 2025 NBA modern thing of it's a trade request in conjunction with a branding exercise in the sense that we know you don't want to be there anymore, but he's trying to PR and market it as something different is going on. Where we're getting reports that Yannis is telling his teammates that his representation is somehow going rogue and telling people that he doesn't want to be in the middle. It's just the weirdest thing to me. And like these branding exercises that players are insistent upon going through is maybe I'm just old Zach, but it's just annoying. I think there's something too, again, we can talk crap about James Harden's playoff disappearances, like what he's put on the court, but his lack of interest in branding himself is refreshing to me. Jimmy Butler too. You find Jimmy Butler? Same thing. And what I mean by that, like James Harden, for instance, I know this for a fact, is one of the hardest working players in the NBA in terms of the work that he puts into his game, dude. Like this guy, he is a maniacal worker. You would not know this about James. He doesn't care to market this as like Kobe system type of thing. But you know, and it served him when he wanted to get out of his situations. This idea that fan bases and people would be like, wow, this is beyond the pale. He's quitting on a team. Betrayal. He's betraying a friend. Like he didn't care. And like what I would say to Yannis in his camp, you should take the Damien Lillard situation as a warning. I was about to say it sounds like you're talking about the damn thing, which ironically ended with him in Milwaukee. You try to be Mr. Nice Guy. Miami's your preferred destination. You know what? We sending you to dear country, motherfucker. We ain't doing shit for you. You try to do this Mr. Nice Guy trade request thing. It's over for you. And people are like, no, Damien ended up in a neck. Damien did not want to go to Milwaukee. Okay. So you try to do play this Mr. Nice Guy. Don't do hardball with people. It's not going to work. And it feels like Yannis is doing an entire branding exercise about something as deadly serious as demanding a trade and forcing your way somewhere like AD did, like James Harden is doing. Like excuse me, like James Harden and Jimmy Butler have done. Like I think it's ridiculous what Yannis is doing in terms of the public fake propaganda that he's trying to put out when we all know he wants to leave. He's done with Milwaukee. The flames are like coming out of my laptop. That was just you went on fire there. And the contradictory messaging is strange. Like you have these sham stories, sham stories about, you know, conversations about conversations about the future. And then you have Yannis to Chris Haines saying, I want to remember when I said I'm going to run through a wall. And yeah, different people might be talking, but it's like, what's really happening here? Or when Doc Rivers came out and said, Yannis has an X for a trade. That's a fact. It's like, okay, Yannis didn't personally go into the owner's office or the GM's office and say, I want a trade. His management did it. Maybe. Maybe. I don't know that for a fact, but maybe you do. Look, I like Doc. Doc's friendly with me. He's nice to me. We've had a good relationship. I say this with some amount of affection. Nobody does indignant like Doc Rivers. Just nobody. Like, all right. Big was no fouls given with Danny Green, Paul Pierce. What days are we talking about? We publish every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Yeah, just come check us out. These guys, what I was, my only misgivings about doing a player focused podcast to be honest was that, hey man, I know these guys treat the league like a fraternity. And it often feels like they don't want to go against the guys in public. Like as a former player, you don't want to be seen as going against the guys that are playing now. Like they really truly have an incredible amount of reverence for the guys they played with and the guys that are playing now. Like being around these guys on a day-to-day basis, I've come to learn that. But what I will say about Danny and Paul Pierce, like these guys are not afraid to talk. And that's what has been the most refreshing about the experience. So that's what I would tell people to come and listen to. These guys are willing to speak their minds about different things. And one of my favorite moments on what happened on our last podcast, I asked Paul Pierce about Game 6 and 2012 against LeBron, when you motherfuckers just knew y'all were going to the finals and then nope. Like what does that feel like, dude? And he had a great response to that. So it's just those kind of things I think have been really fun about doing. Yeah, they have experienced it. We just don't have. Yes. Wasmah, it's great to see you. I miss you, but I'm a listener forever. I love hearing you talk about the NBA. Maybe by the next time we reconvene, Bellinger will be a met, will feel better about life. We'll get a pitcher or something like that and it won't be all doom and gloom. Pitching! That's a thing. It was. Thank you, sir. Appreciate you, man. This episode of the Zach Lo Show is brought to you by State Farm. Life's better when you've got the right help. Think of that perfect pass that sets everything up, smooth, effortless, just what your team needed. That's the kind of assist State Farm offers, whether it's online or in person. State Farm's your teammate. When you need help making your next play, State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, and eligibility vary by state. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything like a slice of pizza from your local pizza place or a latte from the corner coffee shop. Apply for Apple Card in the wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes. Subject credit approval, Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank, USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and more at applecard.com. All right, time for a special guest, Houston Rockets Center, All-Star, and All-Star again this year. I'm just saying it right now. Alper and Shen Gu and how you doing, sir? I'm good, man. I'm good. Thank you. Appreciate it for having this time for me and excited to talk to you. 23 points, nine rebounds, seven assists. That'll get it done. Rockets just lost. We're recording this on Wednesday. Just lost another tough game to the nuggets. Some ref controversies. Your head coach just got fined $25,000. I don't know if you know that. More fines for you, May. I think he was all in New York who was getting fined before he was going to the meeting. That makes two very hard fought losses to the nuggets. Open the season with an overtime loss to Oklahoma City. You don't play Oklahoma City again until January, but are these games like circled on your calendar? Do you get up for these games? Do they feel like big games to you? I would say all the two Denver games and one old KC games felt like a playoff games. We kind of get ready for them before the game. We worked two days before. There's more to talk about them. We were talking about players more, getting ready more. It's definitely just getting ready for the April. What did you learn from the playoffs last year? Obviously, hard fought, Golden State series, you lose in seven. You go down three-one in heartbreaking fashion. You evened it up. How different did it feel from the regular season? What was it like to play a team with guys like Jimmy and Steph and Dreymon who had been there so many times on that kind of stage? I think we've seen that in the game seven. The experience they bring in the game seven was tough. We did what we did. We tried to play hard. Unfortunately, body hilt showed up and make eight, three, nine, three. We tried to stop Curie and Jimmy. We were like, okay, others to beat us. Actually, body hilt beat us in that game seven. We got learned a lot of stuff in that series. Playing against the Golden State, the Dreymon, Curie, players like this, it was good for us because it was a lot of toughness. It was a good basketball. That brings us to the joy to this next season in hunger, I would say. I'm more hungry this year and I'm looking forward to go to playoffs and play a harder game. What does it feel like at the end of seven games banging with Dreymon in the post? Because he's a very physical player. The rest let him be very physical and he talks to you all the time. Are you tired of him by the end of that? Or did you come out of that series? I like this guy more because one thing about you that I always like, you back down from nothing. You don't care who it is, first playoff series, whatever. You don't care what they're said. You fight them toe to toe. Yes. I think the stuff he was doing is making me more focused. I never back down on hang about it. He was just pushing me to play. I'm saying he was just talking. He was doing what he's doing all the time. We all knew we had great veterans in our team. They were telling us before this series what's going to happen. I was ready for it. It was going to be tough. It was tough. They win game seven. We still give them a hard time. If you look in this series, we beat them three times by more than 15 points. They beat us by 21st game, I would say, and then game seven ended up like that too. That was the good experience for us. The first playoff experience. It was a good time. Game four was a close game. I don't know if you remember. You had a shot to put the Rockets ahead by one. You were down one with five seconds left. Dreymon kind of bodied you up and there's some context. It was a foul, but you can't say anything. That's what Dreymon does. They're letting him go away with that. There was no complain after the game. If we were to do that, he would have been like, you know, actually, there's no need to talk about that time. I should have made that shot. I should have made that shot anyway. It's foul. Either or not foul. I learned I will make those shots in future. When the Yanis stuff started to come out this year about, is he going to ask for a trade? Is he going to be traded? The Rockets naturally come up because they got a million draft picks. Great young players like you. Were you ever worried that your name was going to get in there? Did Rafael Stone or the front office come to you right away and say, hey, don't worry about it? Or do you just not want to think about it at all? I mean, I wasn't worried about it at all, I would say. It can happen. It might not happen. I'm having a great season. I think nothing can affect me right now, especially social media can affect me at all. If something's going to happen, it will happen. But I think they trust me. I give my heart on this team and play in Abernights. If anything happens, it happens. I can't do anything about it. I don't have to worry about it. That's what I think. I don't think it's going to happen to be clear. You have not gotten any clear indication one way or another. I'm surprised they haven't come to you and said, hey, bro, we're not trading you, period. Yeah, I think they know I'm not worried about it. They don't even have to talk about it. It's very impressive to talk to you now. You've been in the league for four or five years. I didn't realize when you came over here, you barely spoke English at all, to the point that teams in the draft thought he's going to need a translator. A couple of teams were like, I don't know if our coaches are really ready for this. You went away from home to play for a club when you were 12 years old or something like that. Being adventurous and taking risks is not new for you, but it's not easy to come here and go right into the NBA barely speaking English. How hard was it and how did you learn so fast? It was actually, my first year was really hard, I would say, because you had no language. I had my brother, Orhun, day one. He was a translator for me first year. First year, I would say it was really hard because I really didn't know English at all. But every day I was trying to practice, I was just talking to teammates, even I wasn't saying the right words. But they were still helping me. They were trying to understand me. That helped me a lot. But having not known English and that much friends around you, it was hard. But after some point, I was trying to always hang up with my teammates when they go out, go out, when you go dinner with them. I was trying to do all those events with them. I was trying to talk. Because when OG, we call them OG, my friend Orhun, and when he was around me, I was being lazy. I didn't want to talk. So I was trying to get away from OG sometimes. So I can think about how to talk, everything. So I think that helped me a lot. And then after some point, I got a girlfriend. So since I got the girlfriend, and she's American, so she helped me a lot, I would say. And like, you know, talking all the time. And like, if I don't understand until I ask her, like, you know, what does that mean, explain for me? And then she explained it good. So I would say like, I learned my English from my girlfriend, I would say. Still with her? Oh, yeah. She liked basketball? How'd you meet her? I mean, she didn't know anything about basketball when we met. But now she knows a lot about it. So, you know, she's life is a basketball now. And come say every game almost, and follow me and everything. So it's funny, you mentioned rookie year and the difficulties of not knowing much English. One of your coaches from that year, I tech, I was texting people, like, give me some funny things to ask Alpy. And one of the coaches was like, man, we were so hard on him as a rookie, because he would try all of this crazy stuff that you see him do in games now behind the back passes, shooting threes. And we knew he didn't understand us if we were to really get into detail. So we just, when we wanted him to stop doing that, we would just be yelling Alpy, Alpy, Alpy. And you could tell he knew it meant don't do that or stop. And one of the coaches was like, we could tell he wanted to like talk back to us and say, little, I can do that, but he just didn't have the words. And the coaches like, it just felt like every practice was just us yelling Alpy, Alpy, Alpy over and over again. Do you remember that? I mean, which coach did it talk? John Lucas was like, you know, he was hard on me all the time. So, you know, in practice, in games, out of the practice court, you know, it was always hard on me. And I think I would say John Lucas was my coach at most of the time. So, you know, I was hanging out with him off the court, on the court. So, yeah, he was hard on me. I was like, he was, he was looking at shit too. You know, E-Made is not easy either. And, you know, a lot of the questions about you when you came in was, how is he going to hold up on defense? And I was always optimistic about you. I said, I think this guy's going to be, he's smart. He knows how to play angles and he's tough. I think he could be a decent defender. But man, E-Made doesn't tolerate bad defense. So, like, how have you gotten better under him? And what does he, what does he demand out of you? Like, what was, when he first became the coach, what did he tell you, this is what I got to see on defense from you? I mean, I think I was always like, since I've been kid, I was always a good defender, you know? I mean, I wouldn't say like a good defender, like, primary defender guard, like full court. I wasn't like that, never. But like, I always had active hands. I was a shot locker in Turkey too, but, you know, in NBA, everybody's athletic. So, it's hard to play like the shot here. But like, first two years of mine, I don't think we had a role like game, like game playing for me. I'm saying like defensive wise, like, it wasn't that much talk. You got to do this like this, you got to do this like this, you know, that wasn't that much talk. So, but like, science email came. The first like, you know, I came to Houston and then we went dinner with the email, and then he was just like straight now, everything like, I want you to do like this, do like this, you know, and then we lost to Orlando in the first game. The first season, he came by 30 or something. And then we watched films, like 30 minutes or one hour films, we watched me, E-Main, Thiago. So, and then that helped me a lot. And then I was just trying to hardest effort I can give on defense band. So, it just, you know, when you do something over and over, you're just going to get better and better. And I want to do defense now. And we are more clear about my defense. I mean, E-Main knows I'm not one of the best defender in the league. So, he has a like playing every time who I'm going to guard, where I'm going to be, you know, he talks to me all the time. And I think that helps a lot to me because I would say I didn't have them first two years. Maybe I would have it. I would like, you know, learn it quicker and do a better job earlier. Offensively, you've always been a very skilled player. But this year, Fred Van Vleet gets hurt right before the season. And you are now something like a point guard at center. You're running way more pick and roll as the ball handler than usual for you or for any center. And I looked it up today. You are 10th in the league in isolations going one on one. And the nine guys ahead of you, are you ready? These are the only guys ahead of you who have done more isolations than you. Are you ready? Yeah, let me know. James Harden, Jalen Brown, Shay Gilgis Alexander, Luca Donchich, Pascal Siakam, Zion, that's per possession. He hasn't played that much, but it's per possession. Yannis, Kawaii, Bankero, and then you. Like that's a bunch of perimeter like Alpha Dog superstars and a center. And you've done well at it. But how much like, is that exciting for you? And not that Fred getting hurt, but like how much of a challenge is it to sort of now you're handling the ball like 30 feet from the basket and running the offense a lot? I mean, I always being confident doing that, you know, I trust my handle and working, working on that whole summer. That's was ours. One of the biggest thing I was bringing the ball and getting on some action. And that's what I work on the whole summer. And like isolation, I would say being having a KD on the team, because KD like isolation, you know, and I'm usually setting a screen for him and either they switch or like, I'm getting the ball in the elbow and they can help. So they can help on him. And I just go to my work. If they do help, I'm going to just pass to KD and that's that's not what they choose. You know, I'm saying come double to me or like being on the help side. Do you, does Stephen Adams practice with you guys? And do you have to try to box him out in practice? Or is he just vet status? Like we don't practice much anyway, and he doesn't have to practice because I, if I could avoid trying to rebound against Stephen Adams, I would avoid it. I mean, it's hard, bro. But you, like you said, we don't usually practice like that. It got to be like a couple of days off days and then we're going to play each other. And Stephen is doesn't really like, I mean, he's gone really hard on the games, but on practice, he doesn't want to hurt anybody. So he doesn't go that, he doesn't go that hard. But I would say he did once last year. So it was like after all, sir, break or something, we were practicing and I was trying to box him out and I put my both arms under his arms. I was trying to hug him and then he just grabbed me and he knows all the tricks. Like, so you can't really like box him out or like hold him. You just got to grab his jersey. Like you got to do something like that because he knows all the tricks. You can't really box him out like from backing up. He changed angles. He runs other ways. So and ball likes him. So he got all the rebounds. But I would say I put my arms one time under his arms and he just grabbed me like this and put it up like this. So I took my both arms was like out of my shoulders. You know, I was like, damn, Stephen, what are you doing? And then he's so, he said, so, so you're good. You're good. And, you know, he always thinks about us. And after that time, he never tried to do that again. Did you say the ball likes him? Ball likes him, man. If you're a good rebounder, rebounder, ball needs to like you. So that's tax. So like, you can be in a position, but ball can go out of the way. So we're, and I'm talking to someone who talks to the ball during free throws. Now, you've talked about this before and I was reading some interviews, but it's still unclear to me. Do you say the same thing to the ball every single time or do you change it up? It's, it's, yeah, it's different things every time. Is the ball, is the ball male or female or does it not have a sex? I mean, I don't think about it like that. I don't talk anymore. Actually, I used to talk my now I don't first four years last year I was talking to, but I quit talking about it. I quit talking to ball because I was shooting bad for each other. And it takes a little time when I'm talking to the ball. He just, I'm trying to do quick. Now just, you know, say a couple words, couple words, not like really to bowl. I'm talking to myself and just try to shoot it. Maybe the ball got tired of talking to you. Like we got nothing left to talk about. He doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't like me anymore. So. Okay. So you've heard Craig, Craig Ackerman, who does your games on TV. He calls your one-legged shot the flamingo shot. Have you heard this before? Yeah, of course. So the flamingo shot is interesting because, you know, Dirk is the guy who kind of invented the one-legged fade away, but he would, he would go off one leg while he was jumping. Sometimes you'll have the ball standing still. And before you do anything, you'll raise one of your legs. So you're in your flamingo stance. Like what, what is the point of that? Why is he doing that? So explain to me how this happened, the stationary flamingo pose into a shot. I know. Sometimes like, I feel like when I'm close to the rim, I feel like too strong to shoot it, both legs. So I'm trying to shoot it one leg so it can, you know, it doesn't go too far. He did like, or not, like not short. I'm just trying to shoot the ball high and goes after that. You know what I'm saying? Because if I'm just standing because I'm like, you said I play a little isolation. If I'm standing, I mean, I try to get better on that one too, shooting like, you know, both legs on the floor. But that was just the thing I used to be more comfortable shooting one leg. Do you like this new all star format, US versus the world? I like the US against the world. I like that. But I don't really like the old store, like game. And I'm saying you play until 50. And like, you go to old star, you want to spend your time in there and game can be like five minutes or 10 minutes. You know what I'm saying? So like, I mean, we have a lot of talents and we don't really guard like how we do in the season. So like in that Steph Curry, you know, like other shooters can make easy shots. And what's we going to like 52 or something last year? It was something like that going to who's going to first 50. So, you know, last year, for example, I couldn't even get on the final game. It was just like maybe 10 seconds. So I mean, but they do what they do. And we just focus on our game. And we'll talk about that. I'm assuming you're going to make the all star team again this year. You certainly deserve it. You talked when you got drafted and repeatedly about your goals being, you know, I want to be an all star, I want to win a championship and all that. One has already been accomplished. The championship, you know, you're going to be in the mix, obviously every year if you're healthy and your team is healthy. Have you thought about all NBA yet? Because I think you're now entering that conversation of like above all star into the all NBA world. Yeah, you know, that's the biggest thing. That's one of my goals has been the one of 15 best player on the NBA. That's really cool to hear. And it's good for my career too. So that's the, that's the thing I'm being working for all summer, you know, this stuff and winning, being on the winning team win every game, complete every game, complete every game. That's what I'm working for. So but before then everything, like I said, I want to win and other stuff will start all NBA other stuff will come after that. I did not know this about you until I was doing some research. You were a swimmer as a kid and by your own telling quite a good swimmer, you thought about now I'm also a swimmer. You called it boring. As someone who's swaying my entire life, I agree it's boring. What did you did you get far enough to like have an event or a stroke that was your specialty? I didn't actually. That's why like I quit little early because I was a like kid. Doesn't want to stop. Like I was always want to do something. You know, I'm saying like going to street like playing soccer, like playing basketball, like every day I was doing some different stuff. And when I started swimming, I already knew how to swim. So and I was swimming good because my dad is a fisherman and he taught me like really well how to swim. So when I started swimming, they were just like giving me some stuff and swim like this. You got to do this like this. And I was just like, I ain't doing this, you know, so I'm bored all the day. So I was playing basketball at the same time and I suppose was more fun for me. And I stopped going swimming. My coach wanted me to go back. But I was like, I can't do it. You know what I'm saying? I think I think you made the right call. I think you made the right call. By the way, I read that your dad was a fisherman and then and then he became, I guess he became like a captain or something. He would be gone for like six months out of every year at times, right? So my wife's my wife's dad is also a retired ship captain and he would be gone for just six months. Like that's not easy. Yes, it was tough. It was really tough. And my brother used to go live through sometimes. And it was just me, mom and my sister at home. It was, you know, it was everybody, every successful person has some hard life before. So I'm glad I had those times. It was good memories for me. It was hard time, but good memories. I learned a lot from that. And I think that's prepared me to life better. All right, before we go, give you one thing, one thing next 10 games, 15 games that Alperin, Shangoon, you're focused on like, I really want to get better at that. Or as a team, you're like that play, we got to run better or that kind of match up if we play a big team or a small team or our zone defense, like what's something that you're focused on? Like I want to, I want to button that up and get better at it. I mean, we lost bats two days ago. So and then we seen them right against Saturday. So I'm really, I'm really going to focus on that game and hopefully try to win because we need to get our payback and play harder and no refs, nothing. We can complain about it. We just going to go over then. We got to win the game. If the refs is, you know, everybody can have a bad day. We have a bad day too. So if even the refs is not that good, we just got to win with the ref and play from there. Does Yokech talk during games to the other team? Does he talk trash? Does he say anything? No, he doesn't talk at all. He talks to ref, but no, not to us. All right. Well, Alper and Shangoon, thank you for your time. Congrats on a great first part to your career and first part of the season. I look forward to seeing you in person and keep up the good work. Me too. Yes, sir. This episode is brought to you by Tax Act. Tax Act is your offensive coordinator for tax season, guiding you step by step with your maximum refund, guaranteed, get tips along the way, add expert assist to talk to tax experts, or let our experts do your taxes for you with expert full service. Tax Act helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more conditions applied. See taxact.com for details. All right. Another special guest, 18 points, 11 rebounds a game, shooting what feels like a million percent for the 21 and five. That's right. 21 and five Detroit Pistons. Jaylen Duren, how are you? Yeah, man. How you doing? How you doing? Not as good as the Detroit Pistons. Did you ex, are you a little bit surprised? Are you a little bit 21 and five is some pretty heady stuff? I know you guys are optimistic. You made the playoffs last year, hard fought series. Is this still a little surprising? Oh, no, not at this point. Not at this point. Things to expectation, especially within the organization and on the team that we expected to be one of the best teams in the NBA. I think the world is kind of like, oh, wow, like they're surprised. But the work that we put in, like going through the summer, especially coming out of like that series last year, understanding like that we could have kind of got more from it. I think we all expect to be where we are now. What surprised you about the playoffs? Surprised me. I would say I don't think anything surprised. It was all new. I don't think anything surprised me to say. I know I knew the game was going to be different. I knew it was going to be more physical. I knew it was going to kind of slow down more. But it wasn't anything that that surprised me. I think I like the fact that it was more physical. I like the fact that it was more technical in detail. In terms of like, you know, you play a team so many times that they know what you're running, they know your plays and know your tendencies. So then they come up and you just, you know, matchups. Do you care about making the All-Star team? Everyone cares. How much do you care about making the All-Star team this year? I think, I mean, like you said, everyone cares. It's a goal. It should be a goal for each and every player. But I think, you know, as we keep having the business, winning games night in and night out, locking into one seed in the east, you know, everything else can kind of handle itself. So Duncan Robinson told me a story about your All-Star aspirations. I wonder if you remember this. So he said it was right before the season and he said, JD, I know how you can make the All-Star team this year. And Duncan says, I think Jaylen said, I was thought I was going to say something about averaging 20 and 10. And I said, Jaylen, our last game before All-Stars in Toronto, if you're on the same flight as JB Bickerstaff going to All-Star from Toronto, you're going to be on the team. And what he meant was, I think we're actually good enough to have the number one seed and for JB to coach the All-Star game. And if that's the case, we're getting multiple All-Stars and you're going to be at All-Star. Do you remember that conversation? And it seems like, it seems crazy that he would put that out in the world like that, but it's happening. It's funny because Duncan Robinson, no lie, I don't know how early it was, but it was early. I want to say before training camp, but he came to me and he told me, he's like, you're going to be All-Star this year. I'm going to make sure. I'm like, what you mean? I mean, what you mean? He's like, yeah, you're going to be All-Star. You're going to make sure. So that's something that Duncan has told me for the season he started before we even got things rolling. He's been had that conversation. So it's good that we're kind of putting it into play now, but we still got a long way to go. So I don't want to do it too much. All right. I have a lot of questions about these trips you're taking with Cade Cunningham. Okay. Cause as you guys have this, this like travel friendship going on in the off season, you went to Rome together, I think this summer, right? You saw some sites, but this is the one I need to hear about. This is from a piece in the athletic. I'm just going to read what it says. Last summer, meaning just now basically, Cunningham coordinated a quote off the grid week in Colorado with friends that Duren felt broadened his horizons. The group stayed in small cabins with few modern amenities and spent time in nature training, hiking and fishing. This sounds like a vision quest. What the hell happened on this trip, Jalen Duren? Man, it was, it was, it was great. He got some folks out in Colorado that own some like some campgrounds and some, some good, some good land. So like, like you said, I mean, like you said in the article, that was my first time experiencing anything like that. There were no TVs in the cabins, small beds. It was literally, a literally a cabin, literally a cabin. Probably, I don't even know how it was. It was like a closet. It started like a closet, but it was comfortable. It was, it was cool. It was different. We got to go cold plunge in the lake, go fishing, hiking. It was, it was something I would have never done if he hadn't brought it up to me. And I think it was, it was good. So it was kind of like a moment where we were kind of able to get away and kind of, you know, just, just focus on nature, life and all those things that like I said, I would have never done if he hadn't brought it up. So it was good. It was a great experience for me. Did you catch any fish? I catch any fish. I actually did not catch any. I learned how to fish. I learned how to do it, but I didn't. I wasn't lucky enough to catch any. I don't really know how to fish. I know it takes a lot of patience that is, is difficult for me to summon the patients. I'm wishing, wishing. Does that stuff matter? Because when, when, when I watch you guys play and when the world watches you and Kayd play together, all the focus is on the pick and roll. And, and, and we imagine, I think, well, they're watching film, they're talking about if I angle the screen this way, angle the screen that way, slip sometimes, whatever, all that tactical stuff. I don't, I guess, is you're not talking about that in cabins in Colorado, but do those, do those trips translate into something on the basketball court? Yeah, I think so. It just, it just builds the bond, builds the friendship, which we've already had, but, you know, spending time outside of the basketball court, outside of like work, so-called, it just kind of, it brings us closer together. I've been fortunate enough to meet his family, his mom, his dad, brothers, his sisters, and same over here. He's been able to be my family, just kind of get close and get to know each other. I think it translates because now when we get on the court, it might be a high pressure, high stress situations or anything, you know, anything that happened in the game and then us being able to have dialogue and be able to talk through things and understand each other, understand where each other's coming from, understand emotions and all of the things that play into it. I think taking those trips and becoming closer as friends kind of, you know, build that connection, make me better. And then it's like, as a point guard in the big, you kind of want, kind of want that senior cohesiveness, that same, being on the same level. So I think it's been good for us. How did you personally handle contract extension talks? Did you want to know what was going on? Did you not want to know what was going on? Did you, are you disappointed that you didn't get one? Or are you like, hey, man, I'm good, better myself. I'm obviously winning right now. I think for me, going into it at first, I didn't really want to know too much, but I wanted to know the feedback. I kind of wanted to know what the team was thinking, where they wanted to see me evolve and kind of excel, where they wanted to see me develop. And I wasn't, I wasn't upset. It was more just like, I mean, I understand my work. I do think the team probably need to understand my work too, but we just weren't able to come to an agreement at that specific time. So like I said, I'm focused on my game and the season and the team and no chasing the championship and then we'll be visiting that time. It's right. I have been told that you are a huge fan of the show Friends. Is this true? That is true. That's my show. So in a bizarre way, when I hear players and you are, you just turned 22 years old, like I've been people, people need to internalize how young you still are. You just are barely 22. And in a bizarre way, it makes me feel old when players your age tell me they like friends so much because I've seen almost every episode of Friends because I was a teenager when it came out on actual linear television on Thursday nights. So it's weird to me that players your age are picking it up, but all right, then I just have to ask, who's your favorite character? Who's your favorite friend? My favorite character. And it used to change a lot, but consistently it's been Chandler every time. Matthew Perry, I think it is. God rest his soul too, but it's been him because I think he's the funniest to me. They're all funny, but to me, even jokes that I've never heard countless of times we watch an episode, he still makes the best. So I say Chandler. Are you done with the show? No, I don't have a watch. Yeah, I bought two seasons probably. I've been watching it for years. My personal answer is my personal answer is Joey. And my favorite, my favorite, maybe my favorite joke in all of Friends. And I realized there are parts of Friends that haven't aged well and I acknowledge that and whatever, but it was my teenage life is there, if I'm remembering right, the episode where Rachel and Ross are breaking up early on, the rest of the Friends are trapped in a, in like the bedroom, eavesdropping on their conversation and they hear Ross order pizza and all like Phoebes is in there and I think Monica and they're over here in the conversation and they're all concerned about the future of Ross and Rachel and Joey hears pizza and he starts to say olives on the pizza, olives on the pizza. Like his mind just goes right to, I just want the food to be how I want it. Anyway, I was told to ask you this, the phrase hand to rim is apparently shouted at you all the time for any particular reason by Pistons coaches, players, teammates, you shout it. What does it mean? So first I want to shout out Coach Galzee because he's, he's the coach that kind of put that in the air that I've heard. He's the first coach that I've heard really kind of pushed that for us. So shout out to him, but hand to rim is simply, it's the self-expansion. So it's literally hand to rim when driving to the basket, getting the pain, getting pain touches and the difference between finishing like with like a floater or like a short, short jumper right outside the pain and then hand to rim like layups, dunks, like just the difference in the percentages are on what they show this day, the night day. So they scream hand to rim, you know, we're getting pain instead of a floater, it might be a layup or a dunk. And this is just something we talk about over here. We talked about this a year or so ago. You've always taken pride in your face-up game, your versatility, your passing, your off-the-bounce game. You know, JB was talking when he took the job about how I want JL to bring the ball up after he gets defensive rebound, just run it up. You hear that about a lot of centers and then the games happen and those skills don't translate into the game as well as the sort of talk about it as big as the talk was. For you, it's been the opposite. I think you've accelerated this year. I mean, you're just blowing by fives straight up, face-up off the dribble. You've obviously put in a lot of work to make that happen along with a lot of natural talent. Like, do you feel like, can you feel yourself becoming more of a weapon in that sense? And is it fun? It must be fun to expand your game in that kind of way. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like you said, it's just a lot of natural talent, a lot of abilities that I feel like I've always had. I just needed to tighten up and kind of continue to develop. But I mean, it's really all thanks to Coach JB since he's got here has preached to me about how good I can be and that sky is the limit for me, my ability. So working with him, working with all of the whole coach and staff, my teammates, giving me confidence to do it, night in and night out, push the ball, take eyes off the dribble, just continue to expand my game. So I definitely feel like it could be more of a weapon. I'm just going to continue to do my job and keep working on it. You said the phrase, tighten it up. And you used to throw, you still sometimes do, but you used to throw some adventurous passes, man, some thread the needle jobs like, whoa, he tried that. If the coaches watch film of that stuff with you and been like, see, I see what you're seeing, but that's a hard pass, man. You may want to try something easier. Yeah, I think, yeah, that, and me just understanding the game, just mature and throughout the game, watching more film. I've just learned my spots better, just learning the offense. I think it just come with the game slowing down, honestly. You mentioned the tactical nature of the playoffs, the strategic back and forth, and how about you enjoyed that? One of the things that I've noticed this year is a lot of teams, to try to mess up your pick and roll chemistry with K8 or just mess up the offense in general, last season they would put their centers sometimes on a Sartopsen and put power forwards or wings on you so they can switch, they can have speedy guy on you. I don't see it as much this year, and part of the reason is I think you've established, if you put a smaller guy on me, I'm just putting that dude in the basket and I'm going to get every offensive rebound. But I wonder, like, have you, obviously you've noticed, but like, do you talk about that scheme that teams have tried and do you take pride in like, actually, I'm not going to let you do that. You're going to have to guard me with your fives or else I'm going to make you pay. Yeah, absolutely. I think the first time we seen it was, I think that Nick's series, they tried it a lot. And then even, I mean, even if it's not me, you know, I don't think it's any fives in the NBA that can guard a Sartopsen or Ron Haaland or any guy that they decide to put the five on. So, you know, we get them into action and it might not be me. I mean, I might have the advantage, but it might be, you know, Ateagle said it or Ron will say it and now you're putting a big in action and guard the guard screens and making big navigation screens that they never know that they don't work on. So, making big guard, dribble handoffs and there are different ways to attack it. I think it's definitely, like you said, it's definitely me taking advantage of a small, but you got so many dynamic players that I think it's hard to team do that. You mentioned Ron Haaland. Do you ever think in your head, okay, Ron Haaland and Isaiah Stewart are going to get into some stuff in one of these games. What is my strategy going to be? Am I going to be a separator, a peacemaker? Am I going to hold them back? Like, because they're always, even the other day against Boston, which by the way, I thought was a tremendous win for you guys in Boston, amped up crowd, team with the chip on its shoulder going hard at you. Like it felt like Isaiah and Jalen Brown were headed towards something and it's like, this is, but you guys play on the edge like this, but you are not the leader of the, we're about to get in a fight brigade for the Pistons, but have you game planned for these situations? No, I mean, it's just understanding the passion that they have to gain. You know, those guys are super, super, super passionate about the game, super passionate about the team and winning. And I think it's just all for the love of the game, honestly. And then we go in, we got each other's backs. So if it's something that they don't like, then something that we all don't like. We're behind each other 1000%. And yeah, you know, we live and die with Stu, Brian, whoever, you know, whoever is going on. Like we said, we love, we love the intensity, we love the mud, we love the play and those types of high intensity, high stress environment. So, you know, it's been good for us. Do you like playing next to Isaiah? I mean, you started next to him a lot and it kind of didn't work and it became this thing that was a talking point. But now you do share the floor every game and it's working. Do you like it? I love it. I love playing with Stu and both hands. You know, he's a guy, like I said, he's so team-first, so team-oriented. He's a guy who every night, he's putting his body on the line. He's one of my favorite teammates that I've ever had. And he hits, people see all the other stuff, but I think his skill is very underrated. You know, he shoots the skin off the ball, especially for his size, his position. He's a guy who can take advantage of small, like small fours and every chopper, small four, you can duck him in and, you know, he'll get us two on a defense end. I think he's quite the best defender in the league, especially when it comes to rim protection. So, I mean, Stu's game is very underrated. I love it. You mentioned skill. Like, you don't block shots and alter shots at the rim at 6'8", like he does if you don't have timing and skill. It's like the timing that he has, I've never seen nothing like, like the timing is, is dangerous. Like watching it, like, it's unbelievable. He times everything. And it's like, I think, when I'm watching him, I think he's like second off the ground every time too. Like, he's never like trying to jump at the same time as the offensive guy. He's never like trying to beat him off. It's like, he's the second jumper. He's kind of just getting his hand right over the room as you're coming down with your dump. So, he's on a different level with that. How would you grade your defense right now? Where are you in your career progression? Because when we talked a year ago in depth about it, we talked about how, you know, sometimes you'd been in a drop scheme. Sometimes you've been in a blitz scheme. And JB wanted you to kind of be in between, like up at the level of the screen to use your speed and aggression. What are you most comfortable in? What do you need to get better at? Where are you on that learning curve? For me, I think I'm up to tremendous stuff. I think I'm up to very, very big steps because the amount of film I was able to watch and understanding the defense scheme that we had, you know, it's changed over my career. Obviously, we'll have a different coach here. So, being able to kind of lock in on what JB wants, like I said, he's more of a at the level coach, big help coach, you know, big helps on every drive type of coach. So, being able to understand what he wants, I've been able to lock in more on it, watch film on it. And I think I still had a long way to go. Don't give me a long way to go. I definitely got room to grow. But I think I took much, much bigger steps than where I was in my previous years. I was. It jawed my memory because when you talked about Isaiah being second off the floor a lot, one of the things that every young big man has to work on is like going after every block. Like I'm up off the ground and like, well, like turns out I can't get that one of my guys getting the rebound. You've almost had to like calm that instinct a little bit, right? Yeah, it's no only difference between, okay, can I go get this one? Do I need to go block this? Is the defender still attached to the body to where they're going to alter the shot? Or do I just need to change this shot? Not necessarily block it. Do I just need to change it at the top? Well, you know, it's so many different things that I had to learn coming in young and learn that like you said, you can't block every shot. It's not realistic, but there's shots you could change. There's timing. There's being over early, being the help spots early, you kind of, you know, help it all the way. In 50 years or whatever, when your grandkids are asking you about your career and they say, grandpa, someone told me you guys lost 27 games in a row one year. Like what do you remember about that? What is going to be the one moment where there was a conversation in a locker room, a flight, a game when that when that streak is brought up to you that like this moment encapsulates the misery of that losing streak? Yeah, hopefully in 50 years, I would have pushed it out of my dream. But man, I think with first months through my head, I said the trash bags, the cell, the team. It was just embarrassing. I like like just we're playing against teams and you know, a lot of them games, I feel like we were right there. We were always like right there. And it's like just a couple of bonehead plays, lose it at the end. It was just like, it was, it was tough. It was tough to continue on to you. But I think trying to see the good and everything, I would say it kind of helped us in a way. It helped us learn, I would say learn how to win, especially being young players coming in. We had a young team that we have guys with any experience on winning in this league. So like I said, trying to see the good and I would say it helped. Well, what do you mean by that? What does that mean? Trying to see the good, trying to see the good in individual moments of whatever? I was doing good in the dark time. So obviously that was a dark time for us. So being trying to see the good in the situation, I would say, with us being so young and coming in early to the league and being, I think I was already starting at that point and trying to learn. So being young and trying to learn, I think it kind of put us in a position to learn the NBA, learn how to win, learn how hard it is to win, learn what we need to do to win, learn the rest. Like it was, it was a learning curve. That's about, I would call it a learning curve. Like I said, hopefully I don't have it in my brain in 50 years. Hopefully we didn't have, we got championships and what not to kind of push that out. But at this point, I would say, I would just call it a learning curve. Do you ever sit back and think to yourself, wait a second, that was only two years ago and we're 21 and five now. What, what, what, I mean, it feels like eight years ago to me as just an observer of it. It's two years ago. It's nothing. Yeah, but so you might not believe me, but I always, I always knew we were, we were good. Like I seen me like coming in like J.I., Asar, obviously J.B., Stu, like, like the guys, the short guys that we had, then we got Ron, Holly, we got like the core guys that we had and the characterists, the mentality. I was like, we got something here. It's just a matter of putting it together. Like that's, that's all I felt. I'm like, it's not like we're, I don't feel like we had bad players or bad team chemistry or bad anything. It was just putting it together. That's all I, that's what we were young and I felt like it was just putting it together. I never really felt like, yo, this, this is not it. Like, we're just not the team, which is not good. I never felt like that. So with it being two years moved, I feel like, I, I expected us to be, you know, somewhere in this position. But we always had the personality to do it. We got to put right pieces around it and make it work. And here we are, and we'll end with this. We talk all the time on our podcasts, on TV, on whatever about the man, the East is wide open and look at the Knicks and are the calves going to get it together? And should we, should we, you know, I'm just, I'm using myself as an example. Is it, is it time to talk about the Pistons as a finals team? Is it too early? Do they need to show us more? I don't know if you guys hear this, if you care, but listening to you talk just about your team, 21 and five, it feels like you guys mentally are already like, we can, we can make the finals this year. Like that's not a stretch. We, not only do we belong in that discussion, we're in it internally already. But what the hell are we playing for? What are we here for? Where are you going to NBA for? What is, what is your goal? I think that's something that we all shared as a team right now, as a collective, from always from the front office down to the last man in the blitz to whoever. Like we all got the same goal. That's the winner championship. You feel like we're more than capable of doing it. Still a long season to go. We still got things that we can clean up and things that we could do to make us a better ball, but that's the goal, man. I mean, that's where to do. That's where to do. I love it. Jalen, Duren, I appreciate your time. NBA schedule is busy. Thank you for sitting in down with us. Congrats on a great start to the season. Keep it up. And who knows, maybe you'll see it all star. Yeah, appreciate that, man. Thank you. All right. That's it for another episode of the Zach Loh Show, Barring Insanity. We will see you on Monday as usual. Thank you to Mike, Jonathan, and Billy on production. Thank you to Big Waz. Let's go Mets, baby. Thank you to Jalen Duren and Alper and Shingoon and all their people who helped make it happen. Thank you for listening to and watching the Zach Loh Show. We'll see you next week. 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