Lawfare Archive: Asylum-Seekers and the EU Migration Pact

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Starting making tax digital is seamless, with zero's HMRC-recognized software. If you're a sold trader or landlord whose income tax is going digital, not only is zero M-T-D ready. It also gives you better control of your finances, like capturing your receipts with a snap, so all your records are accurate, sorted and ready for tax time, which changes the way you see M-T-D. Search M-T-D ready with zero. I'm Marissa Wong, intern at Law Fair, with an episode from the Law Fair Archive for February 8th, 2026. In the past year, the Trump administration has fired dozens of immigration court judges and subsequently recruited new ones to become, quote, deportation judges. In brief three to six week training sessions, top Justice Department Board of Immigration Appeals judges and executive office for immigration review leaders are now instructing these new immigration judges to deny asylum for immigrants in most cases, sometimes even without a hearing. The push is part of the Trump administration's sweeping detention and deportation policy, which has resulted in the deportation of 270,000 people at the border, 230,000 people who were arrested inside the United States, and the detainment of 73,000 people in the past year. For today's archive, I chose an episode from April 1st, 2024, in which Natalie Orpett sat down with Steve Meile to discuss the European Union's pact that would drastically curtail the rights of migrants and asylum seekers entering the EU. They discussed why critics called the pact's provisions a violation of human rights law. How asylum and migration law are evolving around the world and more. I'm Natalie Orpett, Executive Editor of Lawfare, and this is the Lawfare Podcast April 1st, 2024. In early February, the European Union approved a major overhaul of its immigration laws. If approved by EU member states, the pact will drastically curtail the rights of migrants and asylum seekers entering the European Union. It's part of a trend we're seeing all over the world, including here in the US. I sat down with Steve Meile, Professor of International Human Rights Law at University of Minnesota Law School. We discussed the EU-packed new provisions, why critics are calling them a violation of human rights law, and how asylum and migration law is evolving globally. This is the Lawfare Podcast April 1st, 2024. Asylum seekers enter the EU-migration pact. Steve, I've invited you on to talk about the EU-migration pact, which is some major legislation coming out of the European Union, which was recently approved, but has not yet been voted on. Reportedly, that's happening in April. Before we dig into that, I wanted to just start by defining the legal landscape of migration law and in particular asylum law. Can you just get us started with a lay of the land. We have both international law, in particular, the refugee convention, also the patchwork of individual states, domestic laws. What do you think is important to understand about that legal framework? Based Natalie, I think that I can give a brief overview of the asylum and refugee system that you've introduced. It is based primarily on international law, and then what individual countries have done is incorporate that international law into their domestic law. Not unusual, and that it's been done to the extent that it has been across the world. It doesn't mean that it is an efficient system, and it's become less efficient this time has gone on. It's actually one of the few areas where many states, including the US, have incorporated international law and key parts of international law. That is the definition of a refugee, pretty much word for word into their domestic law. We can talk a little bit about that international law because it is the basis of refugee and asylum law in different countries. That's the refugee convention which you mentioned of 1951, which emerged as a result of the atrocities of World War II when there were leans of refugees throughout Europe. This was an effort to help those refugees achieve safety and security and relief from persecution that they had suffered under the Nazis. What was very time specific, i.e. post-World War II, and area specific, mostly or entirely focused on refugees in Europe. The main feature of that refugee convention is it protects individuals who either have suffered persecution in another country, typically in their home country, or are likely to suffer persecution if they are sent back. Persecution is not defined, but persecution has to be on the basis of one or more of five grounds, race, religion, nationality, membership, and a particular social group and political opinion. As you can imagine, there are over the years there are many disputes about who fits into those categories and who does not. But one of the issues along is because it was so time specific and area specific, it has had difficulty in many ways adapting to changes in refugee flows that just the dynamics of migration over the intervening years. In the preamble to the convention and other writings about it, the post-World War II refugee situation was seen as temporary. The idea was we are going to provide resettlement assistance for folks who are fleeing the Nazi regime. There might be an opportunity to have folks return once the regime was defeated, but it was seen as a temporary problem. Obviously, that didn't happen. As a result of decolonization and other historical phenomena through the 50s, 60s, and beyond, we have had an ever-increasing number of refugees throughout the world. What that means is this relic in some ways in post-World War II Europe has had to adjust and been adjusted by those who practice in this area to very different phenomena and different forces that are driving people to leave their homeland and seek refuge elsewhere. That's kind of the gut-saudite, I would say, this idea that you have to show individual persecution. That's part of the problem. One of the reasons why the system suffers from delays and inefficiencies because people have to show that they themselves are going to be persecuted if they return to their home country. That's much more difficult than saying, well, I am from country X and because of that, if I head back, I'm going to be persecuted. That's actually three World War II, the way the refugee system was set up was much more of a group-based model. But then, after World War II or during World War II became much more focused on individual persecution by the state. Just to clarify, the discussion of persecution is with respect to the standard you need to meet to claim asylum, correct? That's correct. How do we define under international law, and as you said, in most states where they've adopted the international law specifically, how do we define the term refugee versus migrant versus asylum-seeker? Right. Those terms often get conflated. I'll start with the refugee is someone who has demonstrated that either they have been persecuted in their home country or an end or are likely to be persecuted if they're sent back. In some cases, people receive refugee status before they arrive at their country of refuge. These are folks typically who are in refugee camps and then are assigned the status of refugee at some point and then sent to a designated country. Now, many people stay for years now. We have generations of people in refugee camps. Anyway, the refugees are individuals who have met that definition. I.e. they have demonstrated that if they are returned to their home country, they will suffer persecution on one of those five grounds, race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, and political opinion. Asylum seekers are those who have left their home country because of persecution or fear of future persecution and are seeking it in their country of refuge. So those are people who are arrived at the border of a country of refuge and claim the silent and then have to demonstrate that they have suffered persecution and or are likely to suffer persecution if they are returned to their home country. And they have to show that that persecution is on the basis of one of those five grounds. Migrants is a broader category, quite controversial. We often hear the term economic migrant to try and distinguish from asylum seekers or refugees i.e. folks who are fleeing their homeland because of economic hardship and they want to improve their economic situation. It's often very difficult to distinguish between the motivations for people leaving their home and there can be multiple motivations. There can be persecution and there also can be economic justifications or economic reasons for fleeing their homeland. So migrants are that's a broader category than either refugees or asylum seekers. Yeah and another I think interesting challenge, really serious challenge these days which we've talked about on previous podcasts also relates to climate migration which I would like to come back to when we're talking more broadly. But let's let's turn to the EU migration pact. I think it's a really interesting case study in how countries are trying to grapple with challenges of migration of refugees of asylum. So the background of the pact as I understand it is the process of drafting this legislation actually began in 2016. So it's been underway for a long, long time and that was in response to a major influx of individuals seeking asylum or at least seeking entry to the European Union, mostly from Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Eritrea at the time and putting just an enormous amount of pressure on southern border countries to be able to handle this enormous influx of people. And of course since then there have been other influxes based on global events of migrants to southern border states within the EU but also from elsewhere. So with such a long process of coming up with this legislation to get it approved, can you talk through what the challenges were, what the areas of dispute were and how we got to the pact as it has now been approved? Sure. And it has been a long process. Pretty much I think every aspect of it has been contentious and still is as you say it's been proposed but it has to still be approved by each of the 27 countries of the EU. So there's going to be certainly still a lot of conflict, a lot of discussion. But then we'll see what happens. But I think it is a good case study because it demonstrates several of the ways in which countries around the world, frankly, have been dealing with or trying to deal with the large and ever increasing influx of refugees. As you said, in addition to individuals fleeing armed conflict, domestic violence, gang violence we know and will continue to have an ever increasing number of what are called climate refugees or folks who are fleeing because of natural disasters, man-made disasters, natural events that are in some ways exacerbated by governmental decisions. But anyway, yeah, this was a pact a long time incoming very much as I understand it, the result of pressure on the right deal with the immigration issue. This ties into the politicization of the immigration issue and how politicians particularly on the right throughout Europe, certainly in the US and elsewhere, have utilized and exacerbated public fears about immigration to justify more draconian tactics, whether they're tactics at the borders, whether they're tactics in terms of detention once folks get into the country and then a range of what are called externalization of border policies where wealthier countries in particular are extending their borders by preventing refugees and asylum seekers from even getting to the border where they could assert their right to claim asylum. I think one of the things we're seeing is in a sense an assault on the right to claim asylum, which has been part of international law for decades and certainly is part of the refugee convention. And I think what countries have figured out is they do have these international obligations to afford people that right, but it only manifests itself if folks can get to the border and claim it. So what we're seeing, we've seen in Europe, we've seen in Australia, US, we can talk about other examples later on, are these efforts by countries to keep folks from actually getting to the border. But that's a slightly different story, but certainly the EU pack, there's some of that in there, also relying on certain countries in the EU to pick up the slack or take more of the burden on receiving refugees and asylum seekers. On the point, just to ground a little bit in the actual text, I think one of the mechanisms by which this pact is is trying to deter people from actually showing up at EU borders includes there, there's a new rule that if someone has traveled through what they call safe country is which include countries like Tunisia, Egypt, Turkey, that they will not even be entitled to an assessment as to their eligibility for being admitted to the EU, they will just be sent back to those countries. This is of course something that sounds very familiar to Americans from our own discourse over immigration. I saw recently also there was a deal that the EU announced with Egypt, where the EU is providing 200 million euros worth of assistance to Egypt to curb migration to bolster its own system supposedly to be able to prevent people from leaving Egypt and showing up at the EU. Are there other aspects of the EU pact that you think speak to this broader trend you're talking about? Yeah, I think those are great examples, the other aspects of it or they have something called a solidarity mechanism to supposedly take pressure off some of the more distressed countries, countries typically in eastern or southern Europe which are the countries of first arrival into the EU. But again here they're giving an option to countries more in either western Europe or northern Europe to accept a certain number of refugees or pay money. Basically they're putting a price tag on border control or on control of individuals, whether it's as you mentioned, paying Egypt to bolster its enforcement of immigration or paying those countries within Europe who are bearing a larger part of the load. And that, now that's of course bearing the larger part of the load has been in place for a long time. Italy, Greece, their asylum systems have just been delused by new arrivals, particularly during that era, as you mentioned in 2015, where we had many, many entries from migrants from Afghanistan, Syria, etc. The pact is perhaps you could view it as a way to lessen the burden on those. States of first entry by at least offering money to assist. But again, it's a way for these countries to get around their obligations under international law, which is really what all of this is about. It's a way of several ways that countries are able to shirk their responsibilities because as you say, if they pass through a so-called safe third country, they're not even going to get any kind of a hearing or opportunity to present their case. The whole point, one of the points of the pact is a faster vetting of what are called irregular arrivals. And when you have these quick turnaround interviews, rapid decisions, there's usually never an opportunity to have an attorney present during that procedure, no kind of relayed people are going to understand what's happening before they know it. They are removed from the country or they're put in the detention centers. I think that's the other thing that's going to happen. We're going to see more border detention centers throughout the EU, and that raises all kinds of all kinds of concerns. And how do we define or how does the pact define the term irregular arrivals? In general, and this goes back to our discussion earlier about the conflation of some of the terms. I see it as sort of the way we think of it as the term of migrants. So it can include asylum seekers, or those who at least claim asylum, but it certainly includes those who are seen as economic migrants. It's basically people who don't have citizenship in or other immigration status in the country that they're arriving to. And so the idea is developing these systems to help countries decide in a very short order, whether or not someone is entitled even to asylum, necessarily, but just in the process of asylum. And that's why that's where the safe, so-called safe third country part of it comes in. If they travel through one of those countries, that's it. You know, that's a quick decision. The US is doing that. We can talk about the US, but US is doing the same thing, including, and certainly under Biden, is not just something that was happening under Trump. Right. I do just want to take a second to back up to just put some numbers on this, because as you mentioned earlier, the initial context for creating this, the refugee convention around which all these domestic laws are oriented was thought to be temporary, and of course hasn't been, and as we were talking about earlier, there have been repeated influxes. So I was just looking at the numbers, just to sort of give people a sense of the scope of the challenge, I think they're worth noting specifically. So in 2022, EU countries received about 966,000 asylum applications, and that's compared to about a little under 500,000 in the US. I think there's a tendency in the US to forget that this is not only a US challenge, and that's compared to, there is a difference in the population size of the EU versus the US. But these are really significant numbers, and one of the phenomena that we've seen in the United States that has gotten a lot of attention and has been the subject of really some frankly horrifying stories is this tendency to increase detention of people who are trying to enter the United States. And as I understand it, the EU migration pact is now allowing for new and longer forms of detention and includes a provision that individuals who are being detained in these detention centers are not considered on EU soil for the purpose of being eligible for EU benefits and other resources that might be available to others. So can you comment on that? Yeah, that's absolutely right. And again, that is in a sense a legal fiction that the EU has devised in order to prevent asylum seekers from accessing those benefits that you mentioned, health care, right to work, those kinds of things, but also prevents them from accessing the asylum system, again with this quick turnaround before really there's a reasonable inquiry into whether or not they have met the standard for asylum. I mean, litigating an asylum case, which I've done for many years in the clinic that I supervise here at Minnesota, takes months and months to gather the necessary evidence. People who are fleeing persecution don't bring all their documents. They have the clothes on their back usually and that's about it. And so verifying their stories in a way that persuades an immigration judge to grant them asylum takes time, getting in touch with witnesses who are often reticent to talk because of fear that they will suffer for persecution makes it difficult. It takes a long time for refugees to trust the lawyers or other advocates that they may be fortunate enough to find, to tell their stories. That takes repeated interviews for people who have been traumatized, to be able to talk about it with someone else. So to expect someone without access to legal assistance to be able to kind of make that case in a period of days or even weeks, frankly, is completely unrealistic. And in my view, is a violation of their right to seek asylum because it's not legal. I mean, it's not a formal enough process for folks to be able to demonstrate that they meet the standard and therefore are entitled to protection. Please stand here with a gap. Another morning, another reminder there's a gap to be careful of. But maybe it's time to bridge the one between your nine to five and your dream of living life on your own terms. At HSBC, we know ambition looks different to everyone, whether it's retiring early or leaving more for your family, we can help because when it comes to unlocking your money's potential, we know wealth. Search HSBC wealth today, HSBC UK, opening up a world of opportunity, HSBC UK current holders only. Things are really heating up in the country's smallest house. Dad! Squealed me a mouse. We could save around a hundred pounds by setting the boiler-float temperature to 60 degrees. I'll turn and radiate his down in rooms we don't use. Interrupted Moe. Yes Moe. Turn him down. Not off, said me. Plus finding and blocking drafts. Said Moe. Should save enough to increase our allowance? A little saves a lot. You could save around a hundred pounds a year of your energy bills with three tips at gubb.uk slash clean energy. Starting making tax digital is seamless, with zero's HMRC recognised software. If you're a sold trader or landlord whose income tax is going digital, not only is zero MTD ready. It also gives you better control of your finances, like capturing your receipts with a snap, so all your records are accurate, sorted and ready for tax time. Which changes the way you see MTD. Search MTD ready with zero. Yeah, both of the asylum cases that I litigated when I was in practice took more than four years to fully adjudicate and the extent, I mean, I'm not familiar with the adjudication system in EU countries or the extent to which their standardised across countries, but I can say that from my brief experience in US immigration court, the standard of proof is really amazing. As you said, it's really, really, it is very high. It is very detailed. It requires a lot of documentation. And when you're representing people, particularly people who are fleeing conflict areas or who, you know, as is the standard for asylum are fleeing serious forms of persecution to expect people to be able to provide that degree of documentation and evidence in support of their claims, let alone to do so on such an expedited timeframe is really unimaginable to me. So I suppose I do just want to emphasize that for the listeners. One other provision of the EU immigration pact that I was interested in your thoughts on as I've seen a lot of criticism of it from advocates relates to this provision allowing for EU states to deviate from EU legal standards when they've assessed that there is a quote-unquote crisis situation, which seems to be broadly, if at all, defined in the pact. And interestingly, it includes a term that I learned for the first time, which is instrumentalization. And that is, at least as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, the notion of using, of other countries, non-EU state actors, using migrants for political purposes and the example, being the 2021 incident where the Belarusian government encouraged migrants from North Africa in the Middle East to come to Belarus and then gave them resources and information to travel to Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, countries with which Belarus shares a border to sort of send them into the EU and create a migrant crisis from that direction as an express political move based on disagreements and tension between Belarus and the EU. So I think this is just a real example of the type of politicization that you were referencing earlier. So what are your thoughts on that aspect of the pact? We could talk a long time about this and the parallels to what's going on in the US and elsewhere are striking. And I'll de-date there for a second and get back to the EU, but you see it in Texas in particular in two ways. So we've got very much in the headlines right now, the SB4, the state law in Texas that keeps, you know, that courts have upheld and then put an injunction against and it's back and forth, but anyway, the constitutional argument that's being made is that basically states can do their own immigration control in the case of an invasion and that's what's being claimed, right, that justifies it. And so the link to the EU pact is this idea, right, the crisis, the force-major that allows states to, in a sense, deviate or not follow legal norms because they can claim a crisis. And, you know, Texas is claiming an invasion. I would imagine if this pact even gets approved, which is not a sure thing, you'll see a lot of countries claiming crises because of large numbers of, or large influx of migrants for any particular reasons. And they'll use that to justify all kinds of draconian measures. And then, of course, any challenges to those measures, you can take a long time to adjudicate, but in the meantime, people are being, whether it's being incarcerated or detained in horrible conditions, whether it's having these expedited procedures where people are deported without any sort of due process, those kinds of things expanded before you can have a court rule that, no, this really wasn't a crisis and these things were wrong, the damage has been done. So, yeah, that backstop that a lot of countries would rely on in violating the rights of asylum seekers is really troubling and is, I think, a very valid cause of concern from advocates and other critics of the EU pact. What would be the mechanism for trying to challenge a state's assessment of a crisis situation to the extent there is one? Yeah, it's a good question. And, you know, EU law and procedure can get a little bit complicated. There are different ways that one could do it and, you know, because of the court system within the EU, but also the domestic court systems where challenges might be tried, particularly if those states have incorporated international law, whether it be, and including the European Convention on Human Rights, which may be applicable. There are treaty bodies that could be possible venues for challenging these practices because what a lot of refugee lawyers in the EU, and in other countries as well, but certainly in the EU, are following or a basis of the challenge is on human rights grounds that in addition to violating international refugee law in terms of giving folks the opportunity to apply for asylum and meet that standard that we talked about earlier, practice, these same practices are violating international human rights law, whether it's the right to be free from torture, whether it's the right to life, whether it's the rights of the child when we're talking about unaccompanied minors or families who are fleeing persecution. So there are a lot of venues that advocates can use to challenge these practices. The problem is they'll take a long time when they're away through the court systems. And as I say, by that time a lot of the damage has already been done. And as a matter of standing to advocacy groups, do they have standing to bring challenges or do they need an actual individual who has applied for and been denied asylum? Good question. And typically yes, the latter. And that makes it more challenging also, because then given how long these processes take, it's not easy to find a claimant who has the wherewithal to see this kind of litigation through. And their concerns are with their own survival, their own family survival in many cases, and for them to stick with litigation throughout the entire process, it can be very, very difficult. So that's certainly another hurdle that advocate space. And you don't have, unlike the US, there's in most EU countries, you don't have the class action mechanism. It makes it a little bit easier in the US to challenge some of the practices where you know, you can find a couple of name plaintiffs or through for a variety of reasons are able to cast a the course a little bit more. Okay, so I did just want to come back to your point that, you know, this hasn't actually passed yet. And there are 27 member states of the EU, each of which has to pass it. So what is the thought right now about the likelihood of its passage or what else might happen over the next month or more as this effort is underway? Yeah, I think the politics of it will be fascinating. I've already had the so I statement from the governor of Poland that has some serious concerns about it. So individual states, and I don't know how this is going to fall, whether it's ideological, whether it's economic, because if the states that, you know, the border states, you know, Italy, Greece, I mean, perhaps they'll be a little more likely to support it if they see it as a means to take some of the pressure off of them. But then again, if you've got these clauses that allow states to abdicate their responsibilities under EU law or to just, you know, pay some money, but not take in any more refugees, I'm not sure they're going to see that as being in their interest. A lot of it depends on how strong immigration advocacy groups are in individual countries. And what we've seen in many of the EU states, including some states traditionally favorably disposed towards migrants is a much stronger right wing presence and ability to mobilize against the rights of asylum seekers. They're claiming that, you know, in a sense, it's the, you know, rights of the citizens are being violated now because we've got this influx, this invasion of non-citizens. And that is, you know, that has some political power. And we've seen it certainly in the states. We've seen it in other countries. We're seeing it more and more in the EU, including, as I say, in some countries that you wouldn't have expected it in the past like Sweden. And am I right that the expectation is that this will move through member states over the next month? There is an expectation that there will be a vote within the next month. That's correct. That's correct. So there's going to be all kinds of lobbying and political maneuvering and attempts to influence public opinion on this. So yes, it's going to be a, and I'm not a good predictor of political outcome. So I'm not sure what's going to happen. But, you know, I mean, I suppose even if it doesn't pass, it's just a sign of where things are going in a case study of that. So the politics will be interesting, but it's not like, even if it doesn't get passed by all of the EU states, the fact that it's gotten this far, many of these draconian measures is an illustration of how the landscape has changed. I mean, the EU has been trying to develop a uniform system of asylum for many years because one of the issues there is the tremendous disparity in the asylum grant rate from country to country. The ideal is it doesn't, it shouldn't matter what country you set foot in and claim the asylum, your chances should be the same wherever it is. And that's just not been true. Even after the EU developed something called the common European asylum system decade or so ago that consciously attempted to make the standards uniform across national boundaries didn't work. How did it change things at all? But this plan doesn't, I mean, this plan kind of moves away from that. I mean, it doesn't renounce the idea, but it's much more about control of borders and numbers and ways to deflect the migration of large numbers of people, which is unprecedented around the world. The other thing in terms of the numbers, and you mentioned this disparity between the US and the EU, and the other thing to keep in mind is that the numbers in other parts of the world dwarf the numbers in the EU in terms of migration. I mean, the numbers in south to south, so-called south to south migration are in the millions and the countries who are bearing the largest burden of cross-border migration are not in the EU, certainly not the US. So that's just a, in terms of a perspective on this issue, that migration to the US and the EU gets a lot of attention in the media, but that's not where most of it is happening. So yeah, let's open their aperture a little bit. I think first let's talk about some of the overlaps that you've mentioned, but if there are others you want to comment on between the EU and the US. Sure. We touched certainly on some of them with the externalization of borders, and in a sense turning over the responsibility of controlling borders to other countries, and we see this, it's certainly in the safe third country model, which we've seen in the US, that the Trump administration introduced when it essentially said that if anyone has come to the US southern border through the northern triangle of Central America, Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala, then they have to be returned to those countries to apply for asylum there because those are safe third countries. Many people didn't really take that very seriously because a lot of people are leaving those countries, so in applying for asylum in the US, in some cases in Mexico, so it was a bit ironic that they were being described as safe third countries, but anyway, that was the idea, but now we're seeing the Biden administration has taken a similar approach with migrants from really any countries that they pass through on the way to the US if they haven't applied for asylum in those countries, and not just the northern triangle of Central America, they can be denied asylum in the US. So you've got countries throughout Latin America, for example, that are setting up systems to supposedly allow folks to apply for asylum as if they were in the US. And this is, you know, whether this is actually going to happen, who knows, but again, it's an effort by the US to externalize the border and sort of voice the responsibility under international law onto these other countries. And you have the examples in the, the example in the UK of the Rwanda policy, as it's called, where folks who are intercepted at sea on their way across the English channel from France, the proposal hasn't happened yet because it's been stopped by advocates in the courts, but anyway, the ideas, they don't get to come to the UK, they're going to be shipped to Rwanda, which is, or, you know, alleged to be a safe third country. And of course, Rwanda is receiving lots of money, you know, in order to, you know, in exchange for that policy. Australia has been doing offshore resettlement of refugees for years and years. So the countries borrow these ideas from each other. There's, in some sense, in some sense, nothing new here, but we just see it repeated in various, in various contexts around the world. So, and then in the US, you have this interesting phenomenon now where individual states, Texas is taking a lead on this, are saying, we're going to enforce immigration law on our own because the federal government isn't doing it. I don't know of other examples of that, but you know, it's part of the, you know, the federal system that we have in the US, where individual states are taking this upon, upon themselves. But yeah, I mean, these practices, these offshore practices, the safe third country, these are happening all over and will continue to happen. Because again, it's a way to prevent people from getting to the country of refuge, where they can, at least in theory, access that asylum system and make their claim. Yeah, and I think this is sort of reflective in the rhetoric, right, that we talk now in the US, and it sounds like also in the EU, about what's deemed border security, which is effectively, you know, making reforms to the ability of people to access or introduce themselves into the asylum system rather than reforms to the system itself to try to make it better or more efficient. I will just note also from my venture into the immigration system, while I was practicing the backup of immigration courts is completely staggering. And you may have some of the statistics off the top of your head, but to the extent listeners are not familiar with the fact that immigration courts are years and years and sometimes decades behind being able to actually adjudicate claims. It is an important piece of the context to understand. I did want to turn also back to your point that in fact, despite the fact that the EU and the US and other Western countries are the subject of most of the attention that they are actually not the countries receiving and trying to accommodate the largest influx of migrants. So can you speak to those countries and what the challenges look like there? Right. So some examples are leaven and Jordan countries, some of the countries in the Middle Middle East who have had to absorb millions of migrants from Syria in particular. And in those countries, for sure, just the sheer numbers, and I don't have them off the top of my head, but the percentage of non-citizens in those countries is staggering, I mean, compared to what we're seeing in the West. And some of the countries are not signatories to the refugee convention. It's a much more informal system. If there's a system at all, the borders are, in many cases, relatively porous. And so in those countries, there's a similar breakdown to any notion of a formal system of applying for or obtaining asylum. Most in most cases, people are just crossing the border to, you know, achieve some safety, but any notion of an enduring or durable solution is pretty much off the table in many of those situations. And, you know, in terms of any global response, I mean, there was a global agreement on migration a few years ago with burden sharing and trying to get wealthier states to pay more to the less wealthy states who were bearing the disproportionate burden of migration. But those were very, those kind of agreements are very aspirational and haven't really changed things in any significant way. And I know there have been efforts also on climate migration, which we've talked about a couple of times as well. Yeah, climate migration is, you know, that's the next wave in a sense. And that obviously, because climate change isn't going to reverse itself anytime soon. So the migration that results from that, and again, climate change can exacerbate already existing forces that drive people to leave their homeland. That is going to require, I think, a whole new thinking about what we mean by asylum, because in many cases, if folks are going to the west to seek refuge, those are the states who are actually creating the conditions that made them flee in terms of carbon emissions and other things that contribute so heavily to global warming. So it almost flips it on its head. And so who's the persecutor in that case? And who are you escaping from? If the persecutor is actually the country that you're arriving in. So I think there has to be some creative thinking about this. Some peeps, some scholars are doing that. They're thinking about it more in terms of the laws of displacement and giving people, whether it's temporary protection, that would include things like the right to work, the right to health care, not necessarily, again, what we think of as the durable solution of asylum, which absolutely prevents people from being returned to their homeland. Because again, that process takes a lot of time. You're absolutely right about the delays in the US system. And one example that I use is when I started here at the University of Minnesota doing asylum cases about 13 or 14 years ago, it was ideal for a law clinic situation, because you could be pretty confident you could start and end a case within an academic year, which would give students a great learning experience and opportunity to help someone in need. That's virtually impossible now. As you said, your experience, these cases go on for years. They're still good. Learning experiences for students, but the idea that this could be a one academic year experiences is virtually impossible now. So it takes years and years. And that's going to get worse and worse as migration continues. So I do think there has to be some more creative thinking. And as I say, some people are doing it, but we may have to think somewhat differently about what protection from harm means. And maybe it's a movement away from the focus on the individual proving that they themselves are being targeted for persecution. And again, that's the model from the refugee convention and the post-World War II model. Or visions of how this system would work. And more to a group base determination system that people are fleeing. Let's say climate change from a particular country or a particular region that would be enough to afford some form of protection. Some countries are doing some isolated examples, but Uganda affords per se refugee status to folks from South Sudan. All they have to prove is their South Sudanese citizenship. And they are entitled to recital in Uganda. Now, Uganda has gotten a lot of international accolades for that and some money, etc., etc. So I mean, in addition, besides humanitarianism, there's certainly some other motivations there. But again, these are the kind of things that I think people are starting to look at. Some countries are, but it's going to take a sea change, I think, in terms of how we view protection for refugees. And I think climate change is going to be responsible for that. It's going to force countries to act in some way, because it's just going to be too monumental, a problem. Are there any aspects do you think of rethinking or reframing or implementing major reforms to the sort of global or international law understanding of a asylum that are achievable in the short term? That's a huge question. One area of international law or concept of international law that some scholars are looking at in the context of climate refugees and other areas, for that matter, is the idea of non-raful monks, which in a sense is the basis for asylum. And it says that individuals cannot be returned to life-threatening situations or situations where they're going to be subject to other forms of cruel in human or degrading treatment. It doesn't guarantee or provide a durable solution in the sense that, well, if things get better in a home country, then those folks could be returned. But it's the idea that you can't send folks back. That, I think, and reliance on that in terms of a variety of measures, whether it's temporary work permits, which also affords healthcare, temporary but renewable. Colombia is doing this in response to the large influx of Venezuelans over the past decade or so now. Again, not asylum where folks receive a pathway to permanent immigration status in their country of refuge. But certainly in a place like Colombia where the asylum system is overwhelmed and takes forever to go through many migrants, their rational actors, they're opting for these temporary permits, because they just want to get into a safe situation. They want to be able to work. They want to be able to take care of their families. So they're going to, they're going to go for those that temporary solution. Again, it's often renewable and also helps the host country in terms of its economy. And that's the other piece of this. We talked about the policy of it, then there's the economics. And people have been talking about this for a long time. A lot of evict could say, you know, immigrants helps the economy. We have an aging workforce around the country, particularly in some of the wealthier states, including the US. We have labor shortages, immigrants, migrants, asylum seekers could help to fill that. That seems to be falling on deaf ears in the political world. But it makes a lot of sense economically. Germany actually, it's initial response to so-called Syrian refugee crisis in 2015 around that time. They had a very open policy. And part of the reason for that was because they recognized they had an aging workforce that they needed to re-energize. And the migrants helped them do that. They've backtracked from that since that. But I think an enlightened governmental policy would recognize that in addition to protecting the human rights of refugees and asylum seekers, there are ways to abide by their international law obligations that can actually help them in a more self-interested and economic way. But the politicization of it makes that argument difficult for many governments to abide by or to follow in making policy. Maybe that'll change, but I don't see it happening soon, unfortunately. Okay, we are going to have to leave it there. Steve Miley, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks very much, Natalie. 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