Ticketmaster & Unfixed Price Tactics: What’s The Real Cost?

Welcome to We Fixed It. You're welcome. The show where we take over companies, you come along for the ride. We try to put them back better than we found them. How much do things cost today? A lot. But exactly how much? We don't know. And that's because of the clever pricing tactics the companies like the ones we're here to discuss today have been using for a long time. And now more than ever. And we just keep paying. Some of these price manipulations are pretty blatant like ticket masters legendary junk fees and a legend double dipping on ticket sales and some methods are more subtle. Hello digital price tags. We're going to fix this and decide whether I should pay exactly what you pay or whether ambiguous pricing is just fair game and the name of profitability. To do this, we're going to need some help on the financial side. Our guest today is a fractional CFO. She knows her way around financial operations. As a CFO, she's worked in tech media, retail, you name it. I'll let her tell you more. Please say hello to Elaine Bogart. Hi Elaine, why don't you tell us a bit about yourself? Well, thanks Aaron and hi everybody. As you said, I'm Elaine Bogart. I'm a fractional CFO. I work in a lot of different industries. A lot of digital media, creator economy tech. I work with founders and CEOs and executive teams on leading all of their financial operations, on their strategy, M&A if they're going to buy a company or spin out part of their company and spend a lot of time on working with startups on their runway and burn. So really any company that's growing or transitioning, I work with all kinds of them. And I'm talking to the finance side. That's going to come into play today. I know it. Thank you Elaine, it's great to have you here with us. So all right, we have a lot to talk about. Let's start with Ticketmaster. They've been called out recently for two reasons. The first is those sneaky fees that we're getting tacked onto the price of tickets. So what you see when you see the ticket price isn't what you wind up paying on the way out, including that arbitrary seeming convenience fee, which could be anything that they choose that who's a convenient for, not me. And the second is allegedly letting scalper accounts pick up the bulk of tickets at the time they are dropped and then reselling those same tickets in the Ticketmaster marketplace at an inflated price, which means that you and I, all of us, never had a chance of getting tickets at face value in the first place. And Ticketmaster just got paid twice for that same ticket, which is a pretty sweet deal for them, but not for the rest of us. So we're starting to see crackdowns and increased consumer protections on these types of practices, but that's only one example. So Ticketmaster and other companies have also been known to use surge pricing, so something's popular, or I really want it right now, I'm going to pay more than you, or personalized pricing like using our own user data to sell the exact same thing at a different price from someone else. Is that fair? I don't know. We've got a lot of examples. We've got a lot of opinions. Why don't we get into it? So let's start Melissa. Let's think about the customer experience first. So you and I, we both order the same thing. We both pay different amounts where it gets out. So we post about it or hey, I got a good deal and you say I got a better deal. Are we justifiably outraged or should companies be able to charge what they want to whom they want and when they want? Well, obviously I don't agree with that process. I do understand demand pricing. Okay. So I do understand that when the demand is high, there's a need for that. But I feel like part of the issue and that continues to be an issue in a lot of different operations is transparency. That starts not understanding. And so I know that they are passing laws about having all infies being very transparent and available. I mean, this whole ticket master thing is quite a mess. But I do think it's very complicated. So I do think that we have to think about from the perspective of the business. So from the perspective of ticket master, I'm not trying to be devil's advocate here. But also from the perspective of the consumer. And so, you know, the consumer is the one driving the higher demand. And it's just the way that is actually distributed and then it's actually being implemented to me is the main problem that we have to fix because I don't necessarily disagree with some of the surge pricing. I think that it can be done in a way that makes sense. For example, with Uber and with some of the ride sharing companies, you know that it's going to be more expensive when there's high demand at rush hour or during commute times. But that's very clear and they share that with you and they share that if you don't want to pay, if you wait a little while, if you're willing to wait, the prices will go down. And you can refresh your screen. But it doesn't feel that way with ticket master. It felt very much like a bait and switch. So I feel like they've kind of built that culture into it. And like, you know, and today in today's world, we're all about FOMO and like missing out and trust me, I've sat in ticket master cues for days. And so I do think that we as customers have some responsibility in it as well. Well, I was just going to say, I mean, I love that Melissa, you're leading the conversation talking about transparency and I completely agree with you. I mean, we're used to it. We expect it. You say it with things like the ride shares, even the airlines, right? As we're getting closer to the holidays, we expect, you know, as demand is going up, those prices might spike it. And those are the types of things that whether we like them or not, they make sense. But I think, you know, the conversation kind of dovetails until like when the algorithm starts to charge you more and you can't quite explain why or, you know, it's like, wait a minute, how did my friend across town get this deal and I didn't or I'm in a specific zip code and it didn't shake out for me, right? And so then what you're creating is now a trust problem with the consumer or the public, right? And that's, that's, I think the issue really here is like when folks can't tell the why and when companies aren't transparent and, you know, when, when we're starting to see like innovation and technology leading, which is great, but at the sake of fairness, that's when we start to have a problem and when the consumer, the customer is definitely going to start to push back, right? Well, I'm going to learn how to, how does trust play into this? You know, with the companies that you've worked with and maybe you've worked with companies that have experimented with surge pricing or profit. They're a great deal from it. You know, what's, what's the trust equation here? Yeah, well, I mean, they're, they're burning trust, right? If they're going to just boost your price just because you really want something at that moment, you're going to remember that next time. I mean, even, even with Uber, unless you mentioned them that, that it's a little bit transparent, but it's also sometimes not like sometimes they'll have surge pricing for no reason at all. And then, and then you just don't even want to use them anymore, right? That you're, so all of these companies are, are risking losing their customers. Like maybe ticket master right now and for a long time has had this monopoly going so they can, they can do it. But I hope that doesn't last forever because customers hate them and would do anything they could to not use them. So I think companies really risk churn. The people are losing trust and they don't want to work with that brand anymore. And once they lose them, they'll, they'll be, once there's an alternative, they'll be gone. There were some attempts in the mid, I was mid late 90s or early 2000s to do, I'll take alternatives to ticket master and more of a, a, in house type of ticketing or a simpler and a simpler approach to it. But ticket masters, you know, now ticket master is live nations, so you can't even go to one or the other. So if anything, they're stronger than ever. And whatever fees they choose to impose now with the transparency, you know, consumer transparency is a ticket master, a Airbnb and other plate like you have to see those fees up front. You can't see them, you know, tacked on at the end. So there's more visibility on those fees, but it doesn't mean those fees have gone away. There's, so why, I guess why as consumers are we putting up with one, you know, conglomerate, controlling everything, charging what they want. Why isn't someone challenging that? Yeah, that's, that's a great question. So ticket master owns a lot of the venues. And so they're in kind of a pretty unique situation and why the government is letting this go on. I, I don't know. Somebody paid someone somewhere. So, so that they're kind of a, they're a pretty unique situation. But even Airbnb, Airbnb now is getting some pushback and people are saying that it's cheaper, cheaper for me to go to a hotel. So, so that's getting some brand erosion as well. Going online without ExpressVPN is like driving without a seatbelt. You might be careful, but if something risky happens, wouldn't you want to feel more secure? Well, every time you connect to public Wi-Fi, it's like you're not wearing a seatbelt, because your data is vulnerable and valuable, like your logins and credit cards people want them. And learning how to steal your data is easy. But guess what? So's protecting it. ExpressVPN creates a secure encrypted tunnel between your device and the internet. Whether you're on a phone or a laptop or tablet, you can rest easy wherever you go. And when I say easy, I mean easy. You open the app, click a button, and that's it. Look, hackers got a hack, but it's important to me that you don't fall victim to them. This one's obvious. If you could protect your data anywhere you go for about 12 cents a day, why wouldn't you? So, buckle up and secure your online data today by visiting expressvpn.com-slash-fixed. That's expr-es-vpn.com-slash-fixed. To find out how you can get up to four extra months, expressvpn.com-slash-fixed. Yeah, I think that again, it goes to, and I don't know, you know, transparency, but it's just like letting people know what the fees are because I did see there was recently on social media a whole thing laying about Airbnb and the fees. And they were like, yeah, I was so excited. I had a beautiful Airbnb in the countryside. It was $150 for a night, and then I got my bill after two nights there, and it was $1,500. They're thinking it's going to be $300, $400 with a couple fees, but then the fees were so high. They were like, what a joke. I should have just gone to a hotel, where the housekeeping is built into it besides maybe if you're tipping the housekeepers or whatever, you know, all those kinds of things. And so again, I think, you know, the problem is the demand at Ticketmaster is high because they are the player, right? You have Ticketmaster and AEG, right? So for like live entertainment, those two pretty much take the cake. And then the other thing is all the bots that are getting in the queue before Kadeer and I, so we can't get the tickets. And then you're actually ending up paying more by going to these resellers, right? And so I feel like Ticketmaster and Live Nation, which, you know, I have connections to through my daughter. I feel very strongly that they need to be doing something about the resell market and the bots that are going in. And because, you know, and I was one of those people that like, you know, when Taylor Swift's tickets went out, I, I was in queue for over eight hours, had all the pre-code things and never got it again. And I was just like amazed because I was like, how in the heck are, is she selling out all over the world, which she did? And like these tickets are going, you know, I spent thousands of dollars on a ticket, you know, and my family was like, you're crazy. And I was, but I loved it. But again, I, it was really, you know, it wasn't the artist saying I want everybody to spend a $2,000 for one ticket. I mean, she wanted the tickets to go for the, but I think that the marketplace is really tough. And so Aaron, you know, like we try to put the clamps down on Ticketmaster and yeah, they got their handswabbed and they're still getting sued and the FTC's taking action against them. But like really, like they're still like doing this. I mean, I have a perfect example. My husband yesterday was asking, he wanted to go see a concert in Denver. And he's like, I looked at the tickets like a month ago and they were $23. It's the same concert, right? I mean, like what, it's, they're not they're not a big group. Like most people want to know. And I said, you know, it's, it's, we're causing that with that high demand. And I, I, I hate that I've had to go to these other resellers. But if you want to go, you have to, you, you do what you have to do. But that, again, it doesn't get past the whole, you know, what is their operations? What, what, you know, what is their culture? You know, Kadir are like, why, why would they change? Like, why would they, do they feel like they have a culture that needs to change? I mean, I don't, you know, that's, that's the name of the game is to get all those seats sold. And it's, you know, if people are willing to pay, that's a problem. Taylor Swift in France. And it was cheaper to fly in France and see her than you see. Wow. That was originally my plan, my sister and then go and go get tickets there. Yeah. And that's a great seat. Yeah. cheaper than going to the local place. Monopoly in quotes is not such a bad idea. If it, if it benefits the consumer. So if ticket master, a company like ticket master has economies of scale. And I could, I could see them, you know, everyone wins in that situation. But when it's a monopoly where the prices are not only high, but they're arbitrarily high. But it's, it's, it's a problem. And the reason I think we play into it is because we, we want things now. So if I get an artist pre-sale code, I'm going to go on and use it. And I'll probably pay, you know, whatever that search price is because I got my tickets. And, I'm, you know, and that's, but same with Uber, like they'll say, do you want a $15? You know, a couple dollars and ran right out 15 or 30 minutes later. Well, I don't. I want to go now. So that's the problem with the search pricing is, well, we offer options and we offer, you know, multi-tiered levels and we take the customer into the equation. But it's going against our psychology. We want things now. So I don't want my pizza and, you know, 45 minutes with a, with a discount. I don't want to cold pizza. I'm hungry. So yeah, that's why I think we keep lining up and playing into these things. Yeah. And I also think that you bring up a really good point here is that if there were predefined events that caught and they said, look, closer to the event, the price go up or go lower, you know, the price changes are based on capacity, right? Like if it's, if it's not sold out, like a lot of these events are not selling out these days is what I'm up my understanding is. So if it's not selling out, they may say, hey, if we're only at 50% for arena, we're going to have a level of changes in the price. We just don't really know, you know, you're kind of like what's going on. And I feel like even though we could say, right, cheers doing the surge pricing doesn't feel completely transparent because Elaine mentioned, right? Like it could be rain, it could be commute, who knows, it could be drivers calling out. It does feel a little bit more connected to the process than it does when you're sitting there and you're trying to plan for an event in, you know, six months in the future. And you're like, I'm just trying to buy these tickets, right? I love this band, right? Or I love this show. I want to go to Broadway. I love this show or whatever it might be. So I do feel like, you know, not knowing what the algorithm is that they're using to drive these micro fluctuations in price. Really, I think drives the customer crazy because we're control freaks. I'll want control. Yes, absolutely. And I think too, we have to think about, you know, we talk about surge pricing. There's a group that's going to be penalized beyond just like, you know, being the control freak. And like, I want my pizza now. I want my Uber now. Right? Like if we think about, and you know, Melissa, you're, you're a point about culture and like, why companies might be doing this? Like, look, companies aren't business to make money and to be efficient. But I think, you know, what can inadvertently happen even with good intentions is this whole conversation around inequity. And so if you've got, you know, that shipped worker who can't be on their phone all day, you know, look, we all, we're as white collar workers, we've been able to kind of look at our phone and, and you know, refresh the screen and all the things, but those ship workers can't do that. So what inequities are we creating there? Or, you know, the parents are folks on fixed income. We're now talking about more of a systemic issue than just like, I want my tickets now. And I'm really upset that like, you know, Melissa paid more and I got it, you know, even though I had a discount code. And so I think, you know, when we talk about like surge pricing and urgency, we just have to keep in mind that like, it's still a luxury. And it's not a luxury that everyone can can manage. Everyone can't kind of jump in and be competitive. And in some ways, it almost sometimes feels like a game. I mean, yeah, you can see the price going up and down, but it's like, like you said, okay, maybe I'll wait a few more minutes for my Uber and, you know, it'll go back down. But again, everyone doesn't have that luxury. And I think that that's something that companies do need to think about beyond just the pure academics. I think there is some responsibility in thinking about even that surge pricing again, when we can understand the why. Okay, higher traffic, you know, maybe that price is going to go up. We can think about the airlines. It's the holiday season. Okay, prices are going to go up. But again, as we keep saying, when we can't understand why, we also have to think about the impact to certain or specific communities. And so, you know, when we talk about like, okay, so then, you know, what might be the solution, you know, do they build in like caps? You know, should there be something like caps put into place? You know, again, we keep using the words have a transparency. And I think that is so important. Why could we create some sort of transparency alerts that we get when we're using, you know, these companies to purchase our tickets or, you know, order our rides, share whatever? You know, do you give that the user the option to lock in a stable price? It might be a gamble, right? Hey, this price could go down, but if you're comfortable locking in at 50 bucks or 100 bucks, great. At least you've locked in your rate. So, you know, I just think that when we talk about surge price, when we talk about, you know, the pricing, you know, algorithms and all those things, we have to keep in mind that technology sometimes can punish people for being busy. It can punish people for just not having the money to participate at that moment. Yeah, or it's punishing people for hesitating, right? So, like, it's a big purchase. I'm not really sure, oh my gosh, I want to follow up with my friends to see if they get tickets, you know, it's all that kind of thing. I think one of the things that I've seen in the last couple of years is airlines. They do a price protection lock. Have you seen that? Like, I, while I know United does that. So, like, if I'm, like, scanning for airline fairs, right, to go from Denver to LA or whatever, and I find one that's pretty good. It seems pretty good, but I'm not really sure if those are the dates I want or whatever. It does have a price lock guarantee. I mean, I have to pay for it. It's a phenomenal amount, like, $5. Of course, they're going to make you pay for it. $5, but it will say, like, you can lock in that $250 fair, right? Yep. If, for 24 hours or for 48 hours or something, and that gives you that time to kind of like get your bearings. And if you decide to, you know, and the other thing is now they have, you know, this is a thing that they do now too is they have, they used to not have this, but they have a 24-hour cancellation, right, where you get full refund, right? Like, and that used to be kind of the hesitancy, like the feeling that the customer has of hesitancy is like, oh my god, oh my god, if I press buy, I'm stuck with this. Yeah, but that's, that's another way they're getting in, is now you have to pay for the, the privilege to, for a cancellation fee. So, like, there's, you see a rate for a hotel room and it's a luxury, you know, nice hotel or whatever, great rate, midweek, good, done. Okay, it's non-refundable, unless you pay a $78 surcharge. Do you want the flexibility to cancel? Okay, well now you're going to pay for it, right? You can cancel within 24 hours or something mandatory consumer protection while there, but if you want to cancel in three days, because your plan has changed now, non-refundable. So, you're paying, okay, that suddenly that great rate is $78 more, however much, you know, they throw on top of that, just to give you flexibility in your lifestyle or for anything that happens to come up or you can pay for, you know, the insurances or the other things that incrementally make, make your check out, the, your, your basket or your check out, bigger by the time you're done, it's not the price you see, even with those protections where you can't put in the hidden fees, they still, they still can upsell you on the way up. Well, they still end up in you. I mean, we, we talked about this, we talked about Southwest Airlines, for example, right? Like, and it's so funny, like they, you know, they're advertising is like, get away for us, right? $49 to get away. And like, I love like people putting down like, has anyone ever gone anywhere for $49? Because that's not true, right? Like, you know, now they're charging for bags. So that, you know, you have that. Now, you know, it's like to get a seat, you don't want to sit in the middle in the back, you, you can pay to be at the front of the line. You know, that's another, you know, $55. And there's, you know, early check-in is $15 each way. And so all at the end of the day, it ends up being, you know, you see them listing all those fees, but like, you know, this advertising up like, it's a $49 fair to go, going in a way, and it's like, okay, well, I can't even take my purse. I don't even know what you're seeing. Like, what the, how, how, how that even worked, right? You know, so I think you're right, Aaron. I mean, it's, it's, it's kind of your one way or the other. It's like, do you want to see all those? You do want to see all of those is what we're saying. Like, don't you want those built in? And I feel like, that's kind of what ticket master is leaning on. They're like, oh, the reason we're so expensive, because all of these things are already built in. But like, you know, that's the thing that, you know, the artists aren't making their money off of that. They're making their money off of merch sales and other things. They're not making their money off the, because it's all getting taken by like nation, right? You know, that kind of thing. You know, when you see people with phones with crack screens and you think, whoops, they weren't careful. Well, that's something you can see on the outside. But what you can't see is how careful they're being with their online data. Because whenever someone goes online without ExpressVPN, it could mean trouble. Like, passwords and logins all out in the open. If a screen cracks, you can fix it. But once your personal data is out there, it's out there. You can protect your own data with ExpressVPN and feel great about it. ExpressVPN creates a secure encrypted tunnel between your device and the internet. You can use it on your phone, tablet and laptop at its lowest price ever with plans starting at around 12 cents a day. It matters to me that your data is protected. I love fixing problems. And this one's easy to solve. And it's rated number one by top tech reviewers like CNET and the verge. Secure your online data today by visiting ExpressVPN.com slash fixed. It's eXPRES VPN.com slash fixed to find out how you can get up to four extra months. ExpressVPN.com slash fixed. Yeah, Kadeer, I want to go back to what you said because we're talking about, you know, the, the budgeting and, and creating the, the ability to be there in the moment. And we're talking maybe maybe want to items or luxury items or I don't have to go to that concert. But where there's also dynamic pricing in grocery stores now where, you know, the price of yogurt might fluctuate if I come back in an hour. So for people, I mean, there's for all of us, but for people on fixed incomes or household budgeting, like, how do you plan to buy yogurt now or do I, do I buy milk now or do I wait like dynamic pricing is created a problem like a systematic problem, like how do I even plan to make my, my money stretch through, I get people on fixed income maybe through the week, right? Yeah, that's absolutely, that's absolutely right. And I think that's exactly why, you know, in these cases, like you said, there's some things that are luxury, right? Okay, you know, maybe, you know, going to the Taylor Swift concert isn't in your budget, that's not a need. You can put that in the luxury bucket. Okay, fine, not going to happen. But exactly as you said, when it comes down to groceries, and, you know, we could start seeing, you know, the digital price tag flipping up or down with, you know, your staples, we're talking about something completely different here. And I think we have to, you know, we talk about like the algorithm and things like that. We have to keep in mind that like the algorithm does not magically remove bias. It will amplify it, right? And so, you know, when we're talking about, you know, for example, collecting data, maybe you're collecting data on a specific zip code, and that grocery store and that zip code, you know, we might, you know, surge the price, or maybe in this handful of neighborhoods, or maybe it's all of your stores. But again, think about the impact that it's going to have on, you know, disadvantaged people. So I think, you know, it's, when we talk about, you know, this type of pricing, these types of models, all the things, this is not neutral. This can have very, very, you know, big consequences. Beyond, hey, I just want that luxury item, and I want it now, or, you know, Melissa, you're a really great point. I've been guilty of that of like trying to wait for my friends to see if they're going to buy it. You know, was the price going to go up or down? And it, you know, is about convenience or hesitancy. We're talking about people's livelihood here. Yeah, you know, you bring up a really good point. So there's a difference between dynamic pricing and kind of what I would call surveillance pricing, which is really more around the data like and, and cadera, that fails the test of integrity. Right? Because that's the point that we're talking about. Because that does it, it's, it's not, you know, people understand demand and surge pricing when like, okay, you know, fairs in summer are going to be higher. We understand that. We understand the commute fairs. We understand even like, hey, when I go for lunch, there's going to be a lunchtime special, right? You know, we all understand that there, those are very specific. But what we reject is when it feels a little personal, the pricing is based on my own data and discriminates and exploits me in my situation. So that is not a great scenario. And I think that one of the areas that I've seen, there's been a lot of discussion about and, you know, I know I shouldn't, you know, Aaron will slap my hand on this. But everything that you see on TikTok is not true. Okay. But is, is that, you know, airlines raising fees and fairs for someone who is searching for a last minute funeral flight, right? Or something like that. That's the nightmare scenario that, you know, we know the government and regulators are trying to mobilize against. But that's again, where it feels like integrity means a price is fair for the context, not just for the person. And using all of these other things, you know, using all these other data points could hear that you mentioned because our data is out there and it is being used. So using your browsing history, using your zip code, using, you know, you know, your credit scores, you know, all the things. That's a violation of trust that really doesn't feel great as a consumer. And, you know, you know, I know companies are digging deep into the data, right? That's what they're doing. And so we really have to understand like, how does that impact to to Katera's point like the integrity of what's happening, you know, in the most places? Well, Elaine, is it a lane author? Is it a violation or is it monetization? If you know data points on your customers and you can tailor your pricing according to their needs and their wants, is that can you do that? Well, I think probably most CFOs and CEOs and boards would say, yeah, let's get an investor. Obviously, they want to make profit. So they would say, yeah, let's get every penny out of every person that that we can get. But I'm a little different than that. I don't really, I mean, sure, I want to make profit. I want my companies to be profitable. I want them to be operating. I want them to be able to pay their employees, a living wage and all those things. But I think that you really are risking again, the trust as we all talked about, the trust of the customer. And that's to have to have your company had your company had your customer trust your company is a huge asset. I mean, that's great. Like I'm going to always buy from this store because I love this store and they're good to me, right? As opposed to, well, I guess I have to get my tickets from this place until there's somebody else that can sell me a ticket, right? Having the customer love you and be loyal to you is valuable. And I think they're really risking risking that. And as soon as something else comes along, those customers are going to leave or they'll find another way, they'll skip that concert or they'll they'll skip that event they were going to that they needed to do or they'll drive themselves or whatever. The customers will find another way and and will leave. And so I don't know if companies that do this kind of that are looking to get every last penny out if they're really analyzing the or forecasting the churn that they're going to have in the future from just this loss of customers saying we just don't like you anymore. We just don't want to deal with you. So they need to keep that on their radar too. I don't love the whole personalized pricing thing unless they're giving me they have a price and they're giving me a discount. I'll take that. But I don't like it the other way. Yeah, I think the surveillance, the profiling, um, Melissa, they you know, brought up or I think it's spot on and I think you know when we start looking at, you know, it's one thing, you know, like you said, okay, we see the surge price or we can understand why certain things are going up or down or whatever. But I think when we start hearing about, you know, look, the fact is there are profiles on all of us. If we've used any sort of, you know, smartphone or technology, laptop, whatever, you know, there is a profile on us based on our shopping. But again, you know, I think we have to keep in mind that like what is starting to bubble up is like these demographic signals, these demographic, um, identifiers. And let's be real, you know, we sometimes in a city by zip code, we can tell a lot about, you know, that group's income, race, all the things. And what you're going to have is, you know, that data then ends up sorting people into like, you're a high value group that I might give a discount to, you're a low value group. I really don't care about you. Maybe you're not even our target will take your money, but you're not even exactly who we want to shop with us, right? And now we're, we are saying that some folks are saying, you know, these higher prices, fewer deals, not because of anything they did, we're making assumptions about them. But this is more about, you know, again, this starts to get into that whole conversation about systems issues and equity, who's going to be left out, who's not? That's I think when we, you know, companies, I like to your point, like if the customer does leave or the public does start to, you know, kind of have this public outcry or there is backlash, what we are seeing with companies more and more is once that starts to happen, it's not that you can't regain that trust, but it's going to be a lot harder. So it's, you know, it almost comes down to like, how do you know, do do the right thing up front? We keep underscoring transparency, we keep underscoring fairness, we keep underscoring like help the customer and consumer understand why, the why, we'll go a long way because, you know, exactly to the points we've made earlier, once your your integrity is questioned, once you start to lose, you know, certain groups of people, there's backlash, you're going to have a much harder time trying to dig yourself out of and get folks to come back to you. You know, I love what Elaine said and what you said just now, Kadeera, it's made me really, you know, because in my space and I know Aaron, you do a lot of this customer persona work to in marketing and branding. It's so important to understand, you know, the customer segment that your group is in. So, you know, overall, like those data points are so important and it is important for growth retention profitability for a company. You need to know your customers what their, what their likes are, what their dislikes are, you know, where to meet them, what their, you know, what's that tipping point from a price perspective, right? And, you know, renewal and retention is the backbone of a successful company. So, the question really is around equity because the customer, when you segment customers, you're doing this because you understand that customers are all different, they all have that. And so, we are using those data points to segment our customers and say, okay, we know this kind of customer, it, you know, does this and has these shopping habits and has, you know, has this kind of disposable income or doesn't use these subsidies or doesn't, right? It uses public transportation or not, you know, all the things. And so, I do think that it's about creating a strategy that provides a level of equity across those segments because you're, that we were talking about, right? But at the same point, you know, we have so many companies out there and a lot of them are niche companies, right? And so, they don't really care about these segments of customers because that's not who they're trying to sell to, right? And I get that. And they're pricing themselves outside of that market. But, you know, when you think about something like a ticket master that is supposed to be for the masses and really is one of the only choices out there, they do, I think, have a corporate responsibility to be able to understand how to make it, how to make it as fair as possible. And again, you know, it's not necessarily that I feel like, okay, you know, that they need to, they need to like price check everything. But I do feel like they need to figure out how to put that framework in place to make it happen. I mean, you know, it's funny because it happens all over. It happens in every aspect of our lives today. I like to use this term. My daughter is a senior in college here at Seabold or in since Coach Prime came, everything has changed, right? So student sections sold out of every, every football game that it. And so now they have to queue up for tickets, even though they got a pass, which they had to queue up this summer for, and not everybody got the passes, of course. And it's one of those things that like my daughter was like, I'm a senior. I should not have had to queue up at 7 a.m. and then maybe not get a ticket, like her roommate didn't get a ticket, right? And I'm like, well, the problem is that's not how this, how they set this up. They set it up as the queue opens and who's got their credit card ready to go and paying. And that's what they, they took the first 20,000 kids and that's it. And even though there's, you know, way more kids at the school. So it's, you know, it's a life lesson. We're all learning how, how to live through this. But I, I do think that there's, there's going to be a component of it where like, there has to be some corporate responsibility to check, of checks and balances. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think look, just like their financial audits, Elaine, you know, there almost needs to be, you know, like an audit of the algorithm, right? I mean, they're, they're, you know, we talk about social responsibility and the kind of the G, the governance in all of this. Absolutely. And I think you raise a really good point, Melissa, just, you know, like the company understanding who their target customer is and I know that there's entire departments on understanding who your customer is. And it's absolutely fair that like everyone is not your customer. But I think exactly to your point, there are some companies that are for the masses. And we need to be thinking about where and how that shows up luxury versus, you know, the needs. And so yeah, I think, you know, there absolutely needs to be a team or, you know, whoever is responsible for just thinking about, you know, accountability and fairness in the product, in the tool should absolutely be thinking about, you know, are we, you know, exacerbating systemic issues? Regardless, our customer might be, you know, a seven figure earner. But, you know, is there any sort of, you know, even unintentional harm? Because again, you know, you're going to have a PR nightmare if there's some sort of, you know, unintended consequence, even if you know, your, your buyer is this kind of elite. But if there's some unintentional harm and the cost that the, the general public gets a hold of it, you're going to have a mess. So I think it's just easier to kind of have those internal checks and balances and audits and start asking those questions as you're building your product, your tool, your service. Yeah. Elaine, are there companies thinking in that kind of, how long those lines? Is there anyone checking for systematic bias or writing the algorithms and tweaking them accordingly? I wish I could say yes. I mean, I hope that's happening just outside of my awareness. I mean, it has it. I haven't seen a lot of that. A lot of times, the algorithm and stuff is all owned by tech, right? And there's not a lot of HR or even customer success involved in that. And it's a little bit early days also for, for these kinds of algorithmic price, price changes. So it might take some time, but definitely somebody needs to be looking at that. And I wouldn't even, I think that could also be part of their annual audit. As, as mentioned, I mean, they do audit technology. So maybe some of the big four are also auditing the algorithms, but I don't know if they're I just want to say profit is not bad. I mean, I'm not saying that we don't want these companies to be profitable. Of course. I just want to, because I feel like I'm very much leaning on the customer side and not enough on the company side. But I do want the companies to be profitable. We just also want them to retain that trust and to retain that bond with their customers. Yeah. I think it's a new age of four companies. I think that having the voice of the customer being so strong is been and powerful, right? The cancel culture is very strong. Like there's a lot of things going on now that weren't happening, you know, 15 years ago, 10 years ago. And I love what you said. I actually was going to bring this up a lane because I was in a meeting and I love this RVP of sales Hey, because we were talking about something. I don't know what it was. It was probably around CX because I was in the meeting and he always gave me a hard time. And he's like, we're not a non-profit. So that thing that you want to do, like, yeah, that's great. It did for you. But we're not a non-profit. And I actually have used that same line in conversations with my team when we had to make some tough decisions and things like that because it is true. You're a business and you're in there to make money. And the thing that's unfortunate, like, I, you know, going back to ticket master is that the people are still pay. I mean, I'm one of those people. I'll still pay. And it sucks. But I think that that's the thing that like, until there's a rebellion, like, why do they really need to change? And even though the laws are changing, they're having to do price transparency, they're like, okay, but we're still going to charge $125 for that ticket that, you know, yeah, right? Yeah, you don't have an alternative. So if you want to participate or you want that item or you want that service or goods or, you know, software, you kind of, that's what you're going to, you're going to pay. And so that's, that's kind of the thing. I mean, you look at where we are today as a society and we want nice things, you know, and like, we're, we're kind of cornered. Like, I, you know, I always laugh. I'm like, don't you find it interesting how your iPhone battery starts dying like right a month before the frickin' new iPhone that's another $2,000 comes out? Like, I'm like, seriously? Like, I don't want a new iPhone, right? You know, but like, that's the thing, is that like, but we all do it. And so I, you know, I do, I do agree. I mean, companies are in there, and they're not doing this because just for their own, like, you know, we think this is a great idea. They're getting paid. People are paying for it. So, yeah, we have some, that's why I'm saying that customers have some responsibility that I know we can be unhappy with something and we, we have driven, uh, there to be more transparency with the tickets, with ticket master, but at the same time, it's, I don't think it's changed that how they're approaching, they're pricing. Honestly. Well, let's, let's fix it. Um, it's, it's time. So do we, you know, not a whole lot to pull back together here, but we're talking, we're talking about transparency and having some understanding about what the fee structure is and what the fluctuations are. It's making me think of there's a thrift shop near me where, um, it's a cool place and they have items like the higher ticket items. They'll say, look, here's the price today. Like, I want it now. Give it to me. Um, if it's still here in a week, here's, we're going to drop it by 50%. If it's here in two weeks, we're going to drop it by 50%. If here, you know, two months from now, 75% off its yours basically walk away at that. So, yeah, I wonder if there's something like that that we can put into the equation, but I think what we're saying overall is don't exploit your customers. If you're going to use customer data and, and individualized data points, use it for the benefit of your customers and use it to offer them discounts or, or experiences that are tailored to them or understanding recognition of their buying habits and things that they'll want. Um, don't use it the other way to, to drive prices up and to create these individualized pricing situations where I'm going to pay way more than you and we're both going to go to the same show and sit next to each other. Um, that doesn't seem right. And then if you are going to use these fluctuations, take into account the, the, the fairness, the, um, equity of it because you might make a unilateral decision and you think, okay, good, all of our customers are going to do the same thing, you know, fluctuates at the same time, but you might be punishing a significant portion of your customer base, um, for these luxury wants to, uh, sounds fun type of items and also the daily, daily staple goods. So talking dynamic pricing tags at the grocery store on bread and milk and, and yogurt and things that people, you know, need for want or depend on for their diapers, you know, for their household, you have to have some kind of predictability in order to, you know, to, to make it in this world at lots of different levels. Uh, so if we put those into the equation and then back to ticket master and others and say, look, we understand customized pricing, dynamic pricing, even search pricing, we can get behind, obviously we are, we keep lining up and paying it. Um, but there are some guardrails you have to follow. Here they are. Kid Dira did we fix it? I don't know. I don't know. I, you know, I, I would say I'm cautiously optimistic. I think the things that, you know, we've outlined here over the, you know, the last, you know, 45 minutes hours. So it's not, you know, what's the saying? It may not be that easy, but it's, it's that simple. You know, there was a couple of things that we call it out kind of over and over and over again. And I think companies have to decide, do they want to do them or not? Melissa, you raised a great point. It's a new day. And so we have had those conversations about companies that fail to lean into the times and a year to five years from now, we will be talking about them in the past tense for some of these very reasons. I think just, you know, purely from a CSR social responsibility, social impact, doing good, uh, perspective, we have to keep in mind that companies can do good and do well at the same time. Like that's the whole purpose for those departments existing and really should be partnering with the business, uh, to make sure that you're leveraging who the company is and how you're going to show up for your stakeholders. And by doing good, you're actually creating reputational halo that creates trust with your customers. Therefore, they're going to buy from you, right? So let's keep in mind that fairness and transparency and asking those questions when it comes to equity, um, they're hard, but like, that's, that's what's going to be your differentiator from your competition because let's use ticket master might not have a competitor right now, but someone's coming, right? And so you got, you know, how many years ahead start? Why not just make the change now? Why not start talking about transparency? Why not saying, Hey, customer, we heard you. And here's what we are going to do differently. So that's why, you know, I'm cautiously optimistic. I think we've given some great fixes. It's now up to the companies to say, yeah, we're going to lean in or no, we're not going to do anything differently. Hmm, take that ticket master. I like it. Melissa, did we fix? Um, I think that we brought up some really good points. And I am with Kadira. I'm cautiously optimistic. I think the all-in-up price transparency and mandating that just like you have nutrition labels on food, like let's do that on all of those types of things, especially on like tickets and services and things that you can do that. Hotel rooms, you know, plane tickets, things like that. I also like this idea of kind of implementing um, schedule demand corridor so that you understand when the surge is happening and why so that there's really like clear explainable metrics and predefined price change thresholds so that it's very clear to the customer and so that they can make that decision because again, we like to be in control, right? So I love like having that clearly outlined would be great because Aaron like going to the grocery store and not understanding that that's what's happening is really uh, it's confusing to the consumer, right? Like, you know, why is this so much more than, you know, I got it last week and it had nothing. It was not even closed. So I think that, you know, also removes some of that personal component of it. It's still based on the whole customer segment and that or customer journey, but it takes away that feeling of discrimination against a personal customer there. And then I do like the price protection guarantee because I do feel like that also provides control to the consumer for those folks that hesitate the hesitation penalty like, you know, can't make up their mind penalty that I have sometimes. So I do like that and you see that with Aaron, your example at this thrift store, I mean, E-Day has that too where it's like by now, right? There's a price, you know, you can buy it now or posh more for whoever ever you go. So I love that ability to have that choice. But again, that's very clearly outlined and understood and you understand what you're paying for. So go, those are my thoughts. Okay. So I think I'm saying overall teach your customers and teach your consumers how to navigate the situation and how to play by the rules that you're setting out. And so I'll ask you a lane. But I also wonder one last thing, is it the company's responsibility to teach the consumers or is there someone else, you know, as another board or consumer protection agency or something that should step in and play that rule or can companies be trusted to create those protections and those education tools themselves? I don't know if I would trust companies. I would challenge these companies though to add some of the things you're talking about, some of these tools that, you know, to see when prices are going to go up or down or adding the option to buy now or cancel later whatever, to add some of that into their portals, into their, into their tech, right? Because they're mostly not. They're not really, they're really focusing right now on, let's raise prices and get all the money we can. But I would really challenge their tech teams to put in some, something that can earn some trust with the customer that says, okay, this is surging now. Like, thank you guys mentioned, like this is surging now, but come back in half an hour and it might not be or whatever. And I love the fifth story. I was suggestion too. As you were saying that, I was thinking, oh, I would probably buy it then, but at least I had the option. Okay. So, so I don't personally, again, this is probably not a popular thing for a CFO to say. I wouldn't probably trust the companies to monitor themselves on that kind of the, what is it? The Fox guarding the henhouse or something, but but I would like to see that part of, you know, audits and even just part of the conversation. I know, I mean, people really talk about it inside of companies that they're just talking about, oh, look, we made more. Thank you, Elaine. And it's clear, we need to keep talking about this and keep, you know, companies need to be with the transparency part. We need to keep opening the conversation up and say, look, we're going to try something experimental. We'll see if you like it. We'll see if it benefits you. If not, we may go another way, but to keep it behind, you know, a locked door and and no transparency from the outside about how these algorithms work or the decisions they're making, especially as AI is plays more and more of a factor here. And we all know our data is out there, but you know, it's being used against us as opposed to for us. We may have solved some of it, but we'll keep talking about it and see what companies do, you know, it's balls in their court. All right, well, we're about to cash out on this episode and we fix it, you're welcome. Before we do, let's give thanks and appreciation to our guest, Elaine Bogar. Elaine, where can people learn more about you or keep up with what you're doing? Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was really great to meet all you and this conversation was really interesting and fun for me. I'm on I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. Elaine Bogar, you could find me there. Or yeah, I have a website finerax.com, rock.co also, but LinkedIn is probably best. Okay. Well, thanks again, Elaine. Thank you. As always, Kadeera and Melissa Topnatch. If you are one of our new listeners, my name's Aaron. Nice to meet you. If you want to reach out to any of us panelists or explore our past episodes or send us a topic that you've been thinking about, go to wefixitpod.com. If you like what we're doing, be sure to tell everyone you know until they're like, all right, we'll listen to your show. And then they listen and then they enjoy it. And then you feel great about yourself. So you need what, like a week to get that done. All right, we'll meet you back here in a week. And we will see you next time. We hope you enjoyed this episode of We Fixed. You're welcome. 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