Jheri South: ADHD, RSD & Emotional Dysregulation in Relationships, Parenting & Addiction

If I'm idle at all, then I'm being lazy. That I need to be doing this all the time, or I'm being lazy and I'm not productive enough and there's always something better I could be doing with my time. I don't think that that's a very comfortable way to live. If someone has a problem with substance use disorder, please call 1-CALL-PLACEMENT. That's 888-831-1581. And if we can't help you, we'll make a referral to someone who can. 1-CALL-PLACEMENT is affiliated with Carrera Treatment, Wellness & Spa, and One Method Treatment Centers. Today on We're Out of Time, I'm joined by ADHD coach and advocate, Jerry South. Jerry works with adults and families to better understand how ADHD affects focus, motivation, emotional regulation, and everyday life. Her work also looks at how untreated ADHD can overlap with anxiety, burnout, and even addiction when people don't have the right tools or support. She's helping shift the conversation around ADHD, especially for parents trying to better their understanding and their kids. Jerry, first of all, I'm obsessed because I saw all of your videos, and normally I'll look at a couple. But this one, I looked at all of them. Now, I looked at them a couple days ago, and I forgot that we had this podcast going on. So I forgot what the name is, but I was enthralled with what you were talking about. And it had something to do with the fact, I think it was you take everything personally. Yes. And what's that called again? You're talking about rejection-sensitive dysphoria, or we'll call it RSD for short. I love that. Okay, we're going to call it RFD. RSD. RSD. Yes. Okay, I almost called it an STD. Okay. So, I'm glad we're talking about this, because about five years ago, nobody had ever even heard RSD. So we're thinking ADHD is lack of focus, not being able to follow through even hyperactivity. But actually, just as impairing, if not more impairing, is RSD. It is the emotional dysphoria that we're going to be seeing in the future. So, RSD, it is the emotional dysregulation side of ADHD. And so, really, some of the specialists have said, if they could go back and they could redefine ADHD, it would be distractibility and emotional dysregulation. So, RSD, don't think of it as a second diagnosis, because 99% of everyone with ADHD will experience rejection-sensitive dysphoria at a some degree. So, it's essentially a subset of ADHD. Yes, but it mirrors a major mood disorder. And so, of course, ADHD is a spectrum, right? So, some people really... Like, I could have been the walking poster child just so you know, for RSD in my 20s. I felt like I was being clawed from the inside out. It's this constant experience of rejection from things that are usually more... It's just perceived rejection. So, it can be triggered by teasing. It can be triggered by the idea that you didn't meet your own expectations or failed to meet someone else's. That's not where it comes. That's not the part that's interesting to me. The part that's interesting to me is love relationships. Okay? Because, right, I assume that this comes with the tester. Right? So, the guy that says, I'm gonna wait for her to call me. If she likes me, she'll call me. Okay? I've been calling her too much, right? Right. I mean, she doesn't call, right? And you are so butt-hurt over that, right? Yes. This is the kind of thing that happens. So, this is the kind of thing that keeps people from having successful relationships. Absolutely. I mean, this is why when I'm working with ADHDers, everyone's thinking, oh, executive function, we're working more on healthy boundaries and expectations and managing your emotions more than anything else with my clients because it's ruining romantic relationships, of course. That's the hardest work. But relationships everywhere. Bosses, sometimes they can't hold a job. They're in-laws. They're family members because they hear something and they think, oh, I'm not good enough. Oh, okay. You don't want me there. It's not even just what they say. Sometimes it's what they don't say. Well, if you loved me, you would have said this thing. So, this was your thing. You were suffering from RSD. You took everything personally, right? Big time. Okay. I do that too. That's why I was enthralled with it. Yes. I perceive disrespect where none of it exists. Right. Okay. And then I get, and then I'm on one. Okay. We call that an episode. Well, this is an episode. This is an episode of the number one mental health podcast in the country. And the host just said he's got RSD and he didn't know what it was five minutes ago. So, there you have it. Vulnerability. That's what we need. We need more of that. We need to hear that we all struggle with this because it's your wiring. It's not your personality. This is the way your brain was wired to react. It's so sensitive to the idea of being a person. It's so sensitive to the idea that you've been rejected. And when it's triggered, it spirals. Nobody can get you out of that episode, by the way. Have you noticed this? If you're in an episode and someone's trying to calm you down or even apologize, it just spikes. You have to go take some time to take care of that. Nobody else is going to be able to de-escalate that for you. It's not just that. You're so triggered that any amends that's made is not going to be sufficient. Because you're so triggered. Absolutely not. Exactly. So isn't the work, it would seem to me, and again, I don't do this. This ain't my wheelhouse. Right. But it's critical in order for us to help more people. Now, my therapists are the best in the world and they are far more knowledgeable than me. That goes without saying. So I'm sure we're already working on. If I said, do you have a question? I'm sure we're already working on. If I said, do you guys know what RSD was? They'd probably laugh at me and say, sure sweetheart. Do you want to know what it is? But it would seem to me like the work around this is trying to get people to understand that, hey bro, people have their own lives. Everybody's narcissistic or selfish in their own way dealing with their own thing. Okay. It ain't about you. Why are you personalizing this? Let's unpack this one thing and go through it and see where you got triggered and then identify what the problem is there. And so we can get you out of that pattern. Is that how you're dealing with it or is there another way to deal with it? Yes, but as you've experienced before, I'm sure a lot of my clients in the moment, they don't know that what they're experiencing isn't real. They have to reflect back. And so this comes from practice, right? Having them read up on RSD because the only thing that some of my clients can say to themselves is this is happening. This feels very real, but it's possible. It's possible it's not real because I have RSD because they can't identify that in the moment. In fact, some of my clients, this isn't common, but some of them get so triggered. They can't remember what they said in the middle of an episode. They're just shouting things out. Later, they're hearing that they said things and they're like, I don't, I don't even remember that. I swear to God, Chris, I thought that happened to everybody. Just because it happens to me, right? It's like, it's like if you've got bad eyes and you've never worn glasses and then you put glasses on for the first time and you're like, whoa, this is how people see, but you don't know what you don't know. Right. Right. And then tell me if you experienced this because there's a lot of shame that goes along with this because later when you're coming back down from this episode, you're embarrassed. You know, usually you know that your reaction was much bigger than the situation warranted. Whether you kept it inside as some people do, they just spiral inside or they let it all out. It's damaging to relationships. It takes a lot of work to repair that. And you've got like seven kids, right? Yes. And they're all neurodivergent. So I've, it's been a journey. It's been fun. You're going straight to heaven. I hope so. I'm trying really hard. So my husband's on the spectrum and I have ADHD and so all seven of my children have one or the other or both. That must be the most fun house alive. It is. And chaotic. It is. It's fun and chaotic. Yeah. It's great. So I was going to say nuts in the best way, but that's not very true. Doesn't matter. We don't have to be clinical. It is true. So it's, it's an, and I'm the guy that embraces my insanity. I, I've never felt shame for going off on somebody. First of all, I don't go off on anybody who doesn't deserve it. That's number one. Okay. I've got this filter where I can, I mean, listen, I've been on this a long time. So I've had a lot of practice and I'm the most over-therapized person I've ever met. So I have the ability to stop and actually determine whether or not I'm going to lose it on somebody. Okay. And 95% of the time I don't, I just don't anymore. So I have that, that, that brief filter. But you're pausing. I mean, that's the thing is. RSD is so impulsive. It's impulsive thoughts. It's impulsive behaviors. And so if we can teach ourselves, and I believe that we can to pause, some people have to be on medication while they're learning. Others can do it on their own, but it's pausing and not rushing. This is the impairment of neurodivergence. It's rushing to meeting without taking the time to interpret the meaning. Well, you know what's interesting for ADHD or stew? Have I told you, have you, do you, are you aware of the five things that engage the ADHD brain and get us into hyper focus? Have you heard that? Not. Okay. So I have my own acronym for this. It's wired, but it's your wants. So anything that's you're passionate about interest. Where am I? Our rivalry. So competition, challenge, rivalry, emergency or anything that's urgent. And then anything that's different novelty. So one of those five things has to be present for the ADHD brain to really get engaged and even have a chance at getting into hyper focus. That's totally different than a neurotypical brain. Neurotypical brain can get engaged just because something in front of them is important or there will be some kind of reward at the end. Usually that's utterly useless for an ADHD brain. But the reason I bring this up, like when it comes to relationships, this is why sometimes ADHD or struggle in relationships because when the novel T wears off and the work, so you know, starts to come to the surface, it stops being fun and it really messes with our feelings. Right. God, I hate that part. I hate the part when it stops being fun. Yes. It just drives me nuts. We're on to the next thing. In business or with my friends, I'm like alpha, right? And then I get with a girl and I'm still the alpha guy, but the problem is when it's over, all of my courage goes out the window. And it's funny too because I'm so like I'm generally fair, right? So it's like, if I'm going to leave somebody, I feel bad. So like, you know, you give somebody a golden parachute so they're okay for a year. Okay. So are you, are you a people pleaser? No. Okay. Absolutely not. You didn't come, you didn't strike me as one, but you know, most ADHD years are, I guess I shouldn't say most, but a lot. But if you're sleeping with somebody and you've been sleeping with them for a year, right, it's like when, if you're, if you're not feeling it anymore and she is, it's hard enough for her to separate. I don't want her to have to figure out the whole money and survival thing. That's horseshit, right? So that's why I do it. It's not the people please. It's just decent. For how long? A year. A year. A year. A year. Here's your runway. That's a long time. I know, I know, I know. I know. There's maybe a little bit of people pleasing in there. No, no, no, there's no people pleasing. It's, it's, it's knowing the room. Anybody who could be with me for a year deserves a year. Right. Okay. Right. If you break it, you bought it. That's just the way this shit works. Right. Okay. She gave you a year so she earned a year. That's right. And then at the year mark, you're out. Well, not, right. I don't think I've ever been with anybody for just a year. Absolutely. But like I was dating a girl who I absolutely was crazy for. Right. And we had the best first year you can have. Then I did something stupid. Okay. And never forgave me. Never. Right. And it wasn't like I was cheating or anything like that. COVID happened. My ex called me back with two small children and told me to get my ass home. Okay. I had to go. Okay. And she was just like, you left me. Right. And so that, you know, I, I felt bad. Right. And we started dating. Right. And I was like, I'm not going to be dating you. I'm not going to be dating you. Right. And we stuck in there a long time, but she was an ADHD. Okay. She didn't have RSD. And when you're the only one with RSD and that person's normal and she's learning what you do and what you don't do and she's learning you. Right. Because she gives a shit. Right. And then after a while, man, you just beat these people down and it's not fair. It just isn't fair. I'm just too much. I don't know, man. I don't know why I'm like that. I don't. Why are people like this? I don't know, but I like to think that when we learn how to tame it, it really is a huge advantage. Yeah. And I love it. And a huge happiness bump. Yes. Because the only, because when you're in this RSD, okay, you're like a hostage. That's true. That's a good word for it. It does feel like you're a hostage. I mean, you know, I mentioned earlier, because a lot of people will say they experience it almost as though it's an internal wound. I literally felt like I was being clawed from the inside out. See, I don't understand that. Can you explain that to me? Well, it was just so painful. So, like maybe I'd have a breakup or something like that. And I felt like I couldn't escape it. I mean, I remember, this is like almost embarrassing, but I'm, I'm never embarrassed. I would lie on my bed with a pillow and I would just hold it trying to make this internal pain going away and go away. And I remember kind of rocking back and forth on my bed. Nothing would work. It wouldn't matter what I would do. It just this pain internally. Like I was being ripped apart. It would not go away. And the other thing I want to mention is that you compound RSD with any kind of real abandonment in your life or real trauma. Forget it. Forget it. It just compounds it. And that was me. Yeah. So you were abandoned. The abandonment is so, well, my parents were divorced and yeah, there was a lot there. I was on my, I left home when I was 15. There's a whole story there. So, you know, and same thing. It's like, I'm going to show everybody. And, but so what that, you think that you're okay. Here's the thing. You, you, this is where my coaching really shines with my clients because most people, before they work on themselves, they think I'm over this thing. I don't care. I've forgiven or I've forgotten about it. But then actually it continuously shows up in your life and your relationships and your breakups and not getting the job promotion. It's like it all comes to the surface again because you haven't really completely worked through it. And that's what was happening in my relationships. I think I had some abandonment issues. I'm sure I had some daddy issues. So I'm functioning what I think is great. You know, I'm out, I'm working, I'm successful. I'm doing my thing. But then I, someone breaks up with me and I can't handle it. The rejection and the abandonment is so intense. I can't function. I can't process through it. I'm just not lovable here. And then ADHDers gather evidence. See, I knew they would leave. See, I knew this would happen because that's what we, that's our internal dialogue already. I'm not lovable. This always happens to me. I'm not good enough. See, see, see. There's not a single ADHD client that I've had, whether they're eight or 80 that doesn't need work on their self-esteem and self-confidence. It's part of our... Tell me about what happened at 15. What happened to you at 15? Well, my parents were divorced just before I turned seven. And it was a messy divorce. And I missed my father and I didn't understand and my mom didn't handle it well. And so there was just a lot of commentary that was damaging. I wasn't able to see him very often. And I was in an immense amount of pain. Some people can just kind of shake this off. I remember still sometimes crying and bed at 18 years old over my parents' divorce. So my mother and I, we just didn't get along. She was remarried. I have my thoughts about that. I've forgiven all of that, but I really overall didn't think she handled it very well. She also had ADHD and been owned to us and debilitating RSD. And so I just finally decided I was tired of what was happening at home and I left. I left. I enrolled myself in a different high school. I went out and got a job. I lived with a friend. Then I worked two jobs and I finished what I needed to do. I got into mortgages at age 17. And by 19 years old, I was a mortgage broker making six figures. And it was sheer determination to prove to anyone who thought that I wasn't, you know, you hear things. By the way, I also got pregnant and had a child right when I turned 17. So I really... She gave me up seven kids and what are you, 34? I wish. I'm almost 50, but I, most of my kids are adults now. So my oldest is 30, but no, I mean, it was sheer determination to prove to everybody. It's that rivalry that you want to bet that that competition competitive edge is the reason I was successful because I was not going to not be successful because someone said I might not be, you know. You know, a lot of people with ADHD are entrepreneurs. Yes. Right. And that was my thing. Okay. Forget the not reading thing. Okay. I couldn't read until I was 18. Okay. I mean, I could read. Okay. But I couldn't understand what I was reading. I couldn't comprehend anything because my mind would wander. Okay. It's always wondered. And I, that's why whenever I get on a roll, okay, I don't, you know, I'll look at Christa and I'll be like, hey, no calls, no nothing. I don't care if the place is burning down. No roll killers today. And that can last the whole day. I can put a great week together on occasion when I'm doing really good. And that week is like somebody else working six months. Right. It happens. And it's like 22 hours a day. And it's like, you forget to eat. And, you know, you're just rolling. And it's just ADHD is the best thing in the world for, for, for me, it changed my life because, you know, I would have gotten a job and, you know, been working for somebody else. And because I'm completely unemployable. Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's not a joke. I wouldn't hire me. Okay. So because I'm completely unemployable, I had to build something right with, you know, 30 friends really. Okay. That came from my last place. And, you know, and do something for myself because I just like you, I didn't have a choice and you and I are a lot of like, we had the same thing going on. I didn't leave it 15, but I left it 17. Okay. Because I had to ours was a messy divorce too. And he went and found another family. Okay. Stop paying the mortgage. And me and my three brothers, two brothers, all three of us and my mother were homeless. Okay. And, you know, I mean, not homeless. We moved into my grandma's one bedroom apartment. Right. And, you know, it was shocking to all of us. And, you know, then my grandfather passed. And then, you know, with the divorce and the house and the grandfather, that's what broke me. Right. It was too much. So we're a lot alike in that, in that thing. The only difference between you and I that I can see in this whole conversation is the fact that you had a life with seven neuro divergent and a husband with ADHD and you're not only not driven insane, but you love your life. You're having a ball. That's true. Okay. And I've got everything in the world to be happy about. And I put everything on hold because I guess this is an ADHD thing too. You correct me if I'm wrong, but I can only focus on one thing at a time. So if I have a conversation with somebody and they bring up a two part question, I'll go, ah, one thing at a time. Let's unpack this thing. One thing at a time. Clarity's power. We're going to get this thing handled. Okay. And that's how I do it. Is that an ADHD thing too? Well, yeah, I would even argue that it means you know yourself. A lot of ADHDers don't understand themselves very well. So they're just spiraling and staying stuck. They don't know to stop someone and say one thing at a time. So they're trying to do all the things at once. I think that's actually, it's a great sign that you understand your ADHD because the inclination is to multitask and to just do everything at once. We're go big or go home. Very impatient, but you have to be able to slow down and recognize what are your strengths and weaknesses so that you can get stuff done. That's right. Yeah. That's not common that many ADHDers understand that. The other thing I just wanted to point out when you were talking to you is that one of the things that really sets me apart as a coach. As far as I've been able to tell is that most ADHD coaches out there are talking about executive function deficits and that's what they're working on in their coaching. I personally believe that everything starts at an executive or I'm sorry, an emotional dysregulation level. So I think that when obviously that but nobody's talking about that. They're giving you so like they're giving you day timers and planners and and dinging bells and it's not working and everyone's saying what's wrong with me that it's not working. It's like because that's not the problem. That's the symptom. The root cause is the emotional dysregulation. So what they're doing essentially is giving them tools to live life, but they're not dealing with the issue because they can't be consistent because because if you have a day timer for an ADHD problem. It lets you know where you're supposed to be at the right time and it just puts your whole day together so you have a theme for the day. I'm getting bored while you're saying that right now. Right. Like I can hardly talk about day timers. Well, it just sounds so boring and that's the problem for ADHDers is did you know that boredom is one of the most heavy overwhelming emotions for an ADHDer? Yeah, because we can't sit still with it and then we're like what are we supposed to do now and then you feel guilty because you're not doing anything when you're just being gentle with yourself. Okay, so you can, you know, recharge and get back to what you're doing. Right. So we don't even want to talk about processes and day timers and the idea that we're going to be consistent with them is overwhelming and that is all rooted in emotional dysregulation. You work on yourself. You heal your brain. You fix the problem. I like both. I like both. And because what they're teaching is life skills and what you're teaching is healing. Okay. And a lot of people don't heal because they don't put in the work. Right. Well, and I teach the skills for executive function too. It's just that that's not where you start. And I'll tell you, that's where most adults want to start. They'll come to me and say, I need to get organized. I'm going to lose my job. I need to do this and that. And I'm like, we're not going to start there. You start in your action line, what I call it, but you don't change your thinking, your belief system, what you think you're capable of, all your identity. You don't change anything. Then you're just getting a basic foundation. That's right. Okay. That's what it's like to work from there. That's right. That makes sense. That makes a little bit of it. It fixes everything. That's what's so great. It's like it improves your relationships. You can be in a romantic relationship. You can shine at work. You can be consistent. You can get your work done. But honestly, you know, you know this because you're in this world, but most ADHDers hear that. And it's usually, usually they believe me. Sometimes they don't. It's fascinating emotional dysregulation. No, I just need to be organized. It gives people comfortable. It makes people comfortable to be a master of time management. It just does. For me, I need to have time management. Now here's the difference. Okay. I've got the tools for living. I have not had the tools for healing. Not this thing. All the other garbage I'm good with. I've dealt with all of it. Okay. But honestly, I did not know what RSD was until I saw your videos. I didn't know. Okay. I didn't know that, you know, I knew I took everything personally. I knew that that was ridiculous. And then, you know, you lie to yourself and you say, well, that's okay. I'm just creating disrespect where none exists. So I can go out and beat the world down. Okay. That just motivated me. Okay. I did it with sports and I do it with this. Okay. So, but it affects your happiness. Okay. It just does. But you want to know what? I don't know a whole lot of really successful people who have a good work life balance. I just don't know. And it kind of hoses me. But, you know, I think every father wants to make certain that their kids are okay in the world when they're gone. Right. And so until I get that handled, right, it's like, what do you, like my grandma used to say, what are you going out to have a good time? Right. That's all I hear in my head. Like that's a bad thing. You know what I mean? It's like, yes. Yeah. Oh, I don't love that conditioning. And the other thing that I've noticed is at least my conditioning growing up was that if I'm idle at all, look, if I want to take a nap, which who has time for that, but I want to just take some time for me, that I'm being lazy, that I need to be doing this all the time, or I'm being lazy and I'm not productive enough. And there's always something better I could be doing with my time. I don't think that that's a very comfortable way to live. I don't think it's very nice to do to myself. So I'm really trying to be aware of that and where it came from so that I'm not doing that to my children. Yeah. I call it being gentle with yourself. Okay. And I'm like, dude, you're just being gentle with yourself. Calm down. And relax for a minute. Okay. And this place forces you to slow down. Puerto Rico causes you to slow down. Malibu was slow. Hawaii is slower. This place is like on stop. It's a different deal. It's a different deal. And talk about boredom. Okay. If you're four hours difference and you wake up at nine and it's five o'clock in LA, that works on your ADHD too. Give me an example of how you and your husband will work something out when you are feeling unloved. Well, so I don't know if you caught earlier that he's actually on the spectrum. So he doesn't have ADHD. He has autism. And that was really a difficult thing. And just so you know, this is really common. I probably have seven couples right now that I'm working with where the man has autism and the woman has ADHD, but he did not know he had autism. He either thought he had ADHD, which is a very common misdiagnosis, or he didn't know he was struggling with any diagnosis at all. And they actually, I think in the beginning it's a little bit shocking to hear, but then appreciate knowing because what it really does is it highlights communication differences. So the reason that's important is because it's just, we're so opposite in our communication. His first inclination is to completely shut down and ice me out when he recognizes any kind of threat at all. And also if he hears me ask a question, trying to get information, his brain, the autistic brain senses a threat. So it was really hard to communicate anyway. And then I would be overly emotional. I have to tell you, and I'm really, this is the truth. RSD is almost completely non-existent in my life. I can't think of the last time I've had an episode, and maybe a couple times a year and it sticks around for 20 minutes and nobody would know. I mean, I would never claim that it goes away because ADHD doesn't go away. It's always there. It could always come up, but it's just not, it's almost not there. So that's really great. But in the beginning of our marriage, that wasn't true. And so he would say something, especially being on the spectrum, it might be a little too blunt than something I would like to hear. And I would just blow up. What is that supposed to mean? Why would you say that? And then I would just want to talk and talk and talk and talk. And he wouldn't talk at all. He had this amazing ability to just stare at the wall for two hours. And oh my gosh, nothing made me more mad than that. I'd rather him yell at me than just shut down and ice me out. It was so insulting. Now we've gotten really good at, I think I had to learn. I always joke that I learned to speak autism, but I had to learn what was going through his brain and what our communication styles were. Because the RSD immediate reaction was to think, you don't love me. You're doing this on purpose. I mean, I wanted to get a divorce. Here's a real story I'll tell my clients. I wanted to get a divorce over where he put his laundry in the laundry basket. He would just kind of slowly undress to the shower. And I didn't like that. So I would tell him, please put your clothes in the hamper. But he just would forget. He wouldn't do it. So then I bought him his own hamper. And this just turned into a whole thing. Sometimes I would like do this in front of him so he could see like I'm doing it for you. Other times I'd kick it over to his side of the bed. But I mean, I got so upset. My thoughts over this became, you don't love me. You don't respect me. I should have never married you because my RSD brain really believed if you loved me, you would put that laundry in the hamper. And in reality, he just didn't care. I mean, he cared about me. And sometimes he would remember because he was scared of me, which I hate that thought. But otherwise he just would forget. He's like home from work. He could care less where the laundry went. And so once I realized like if it bothers me this much, I just put it in the hamper or I can just kick it over to his side of the bed. But I would every little infraction like that. It was like, you don't love me. You, if you did, I have all this shitting going on. If you love me, you would do this and you should do that. And I had to really check myself. I kept trying to change him and didn't realize how much changing I could benefit from doing. So once I started looking internally, like why am I so upset about this? I would have to roll it back. And I with my clients always come up with, you have to come up with at least three other truths. Once your brain's regulated, like if you're, I went out of 10, if you're over a five, your goal is to just get regulated under a five so you can even work through your thoughts. So don't try and do it when you're worked up. But at that point, what was actually going on here? Because my brain just jumps to this irrational, painful conclusion. But there's always things that are a lot more true than what my brain's making it mean. And as I practice this skill over and over, it became an automatic thing in my life. I like that you figured out that as soon as you work on your side of the street, the relationship gets better. Okay. Yeah. That is a mainstay. But this happened to me too. My first of all, I've never met a woman. Okay. That didn't want to change a man. I've never met one. Okay. They're only changing. What can we say? Right. Okay. But the truth is, you know, when a man and a woman get together, it's different. The guy doesn't know how to live. He's got a beer in the fridge, four-day-old pizza. He's got five forks. Okay. Maybe one mug. I mean, he don't have shit. Okay. A woman comes into the marriage. She's got a bunch of stuff. Okay. She knows how to live. She's not an idiot. Okay. And so I didn't know how to live. And this woman, much like you, okay, speaks with authority. Okay. Now, I speak with authority, but I know what I know and I know what I don't know. So what I did was, when she was telling me what to do, my thought was, oh, this is how you do it. Not this is how she does it. And I've got, oh, this is how you do it. She's showing me the way. She showed me how to raise the kids. You know, I was hit all the time. Never lifted a hand or raised my voice to my children. That was her. She taught me that. Now, she'll leave all the doors on all the cabinets open. Okay. That drives me nuts. I've told her, babe, this is nonsense. I can't take it. Okay. Now my daughter does it. Okay. So it's like it drives me. I knowingly, right? Like not aware that they're doing not, they're not doing it for any reason other than like your husband, they don't care. And I haven't made it a must. Like my ex made it to me. Like you made it to your, made it to your man. So yeah, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Well, well, here's, here's what I learned. Just like I'll, I'll share with you what my aha moment was, was that I can make requests all day long. And I think in marriage and intimate relationships, we do, we please come to bed when I come to bed, we please put your laundry away. We please call me back when I text you. I need to talk to you. But when our emotional happiness gets tied up and whether or not they comply, that's when we have a problem because he's not always going to remember. He's only doing it for me. And so I was making myself mad. And I, I'll tell my clients like, it doesn't matter if your child's on drugs, start with you. If your husband's not giving you enough affection, start with you. When I started to change myself and my energy, it was so fascinating to me how all of these things actually started to work themselves out for my husband. Specifically, he wasn't in fight or flight all the time with me. And he was in a relationship and has expectations of their significant other. They think their relation, their expectations are reasonable. Like, well, of course he should do these things. We're in a relationship. I wouldn't want to be in a relationship if he didn't do these things. That would be my response. But then when he turned it on me, I'm like, well, that's unreasonable. He's like, I don't think it's unreasonable. So I realized that if I don't want him doing that to me, I don't, and I didn't want him walking on eggshells. I really had to do a lot of work. I had to come to terms with the fact that just because it seems so reasonable to me, he didn't share those same sentiments. And so what do I want to do with that? Make requests, but don't get emotionally tied up in whether or not he complies every time. Just like, take care of myself. And once I was able to change the meaning, this has nothing to do with how much he loves me. This is just him after work, not thinking, I don't totally get it. I think I would think about this. I think I could correct this easier than he is. But he feels that way about me and lots of other situations. So it's being a lot more flexible in the way that I experienced him and just life in general. I just want to say one thing because you, I just want to correct one thing that you said. Sure. If I heard it correctly, when your child starts using drugs, you don't work on you. We're out of time now. These things are, all the drugs are laced with that. It's killing everybody. So the first thing you do when your kid is using drugs, I don't care what drugs they are, they go immediately into treatment. And so I always tell people the same thing. You can call us at Carrera Treatment Center. One out of 200 people gets to come to Carrera. Okay. We don't throw anybody away. We'll refer you out if we can't help you. We will. But that's why we're doing this podcast and that's why it's called, We're Out of Time. I just couldn't do the all thing every day because I start crying like a little bitch because it's too painful all the time. So I do it every second one or every third one. I did this so that parents don't have to lose their children because that's the most unnatural thing in the world and it's not something that I could get over. And so I don't think it's something you can get over. Do you know my background? I don't know if you know this about me, that I was divorced with six children. So I was a single mother of six children for a long time because my ex-husband, who was an amazing husband and father, became addicted to crystal meth and heroin. And my oldest son, the reason I do this work, I was a coach for years working, especially with women, women who were starting over. I worked with adults. And at the same time, I have almost lost two children to suicide. And my oldest son at the time was struggling. He moved in with his dad, who he loved very much. And his dad is the one that encouraged him to drop out of school and started doing drugs with him and introduced him to the drugs that he was doing. You're kidding. And no, no, I'm not kidding. And I was trying to save my son and I took him to every therapist and counselor I could find. He was never diagnosed correctly. And I finally had resolved myself to the fact that I was going to lose him. So I completely agree with you. When I say start with you, what I meant was my approach wasn't working and I would argue with him because he wouldn't listen to me. And I had to really humble myself and think about how I could reach my son. And one thing I did recognize about myself in that moment is even though I loved him so much and I would have done anything for him, so much of my reaction and the way I went about things was about me and my feelings. And so, I mean, I'm someone who believes in prayer. I mean, I really humbled myself and I was finally able to reach my son and get him home. And I felt like coaching saved his life. That's the reason I shifted my niche and started working with teens. When I went down this rabbit hole of neurodivergence, I had no intention at the time of specializing in that in my coaching business. I was already a successful coach. I was trying to save my family. And that's when I also met Dr. William Dodson. He was the first one to ever start writing on RSD. I went to his home. He's retired. I brought a camera crew. I interviewed him for four hours. He helped me with some of my clients. I was learning everything I could to save my family. The comorbidity rate for ADHD is that there's a 60% likelihood you'll have one comorbid condition, a 40% likelihood you'll have a second. My family struggles with OCD. My oldest son had autism and ADHD. He was only ever diagnosed with depression and he was using drugs and nothing was helping him. Coaching, this coaching program was the first thing that really had an effect on him. And that's when I immediately started working with teens. How is your role? How is he doing? Great. He has, we're religious people. We believe in God. He had completely abandoned any faith. He didn't believe in anything. He is now a very active member in his church. He's thriving. He's doing amazing. We think he's going to get married in the next year. He's been sober for years. So a lot, and a lot, I work with this a lot in my coaching business, especially with teens. They've been engaging in self-harm for a couple of years. They're addicted to drugs or alcohol because ADHD-ers are three to four times more likely to be addicted to substances because they're constantly chasing dopamine. So if they're not treated, you know, then that's exactly right. That is exactly right. But neurodivergent. My ex-husband never got clean, by the way. I didn't mean to interrupt you, but he still... No, no, don't be silly. You know, that was my mistake. I was going to ask how he was doing next. No, yeah, he's never... And it's been tragic for my children. He was the most amazing father you've ever met in your life. I'm sorry. So that's really... But honestly, that's what brought me here. I never imagined... I didn't know my whole family was neurodivergent. I didn't ever imagine that I would be working with people with ADHD, but on this mission, I mean, I'll interview experts from all over the world. I'll meet with them. And there's so much misinformation. Dr. Dodson says 93% of psychiatrists today have no idea how to properly treat ADHD. And I find that to be mostly true in my business, that people have so much misinformation. They've tried so many things, nothing's worked. But that's not uncommon, and that's not surprising because I've been doing treatment for 20 years. I've given 10,000 people back to their families. And I didn't know what RSD was before I saw your video. And then I was enamored with it, and I was like, I need this woman on my show. Thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it. Well, you're welcome. You're not done yet. I'm just... Thank you. I'm not ready to leave. But it's true. If I talk about RSD, there's so many people that have never heard of it, and it's because none of us, as I mentioned, Dr. Dodson was the first one to start writing about it. We didn't really know what this was five years ago. He just recognized that it mirrored a major mood disorder, and they were trying to figure out what it is. Now I will tell you that their best line of defense for it when it comes to medication, whether people... This isn't stimulant medication, whether you're medication people or not, they found that Guantfeucine or Clonidine, which is a blood pressure medication, actually is the best treatment for RSD. Some people do that. Some people just do behavioral coaching, but just understanding what RSD is can have a significant difference in your life because now you can pause and say, I think this is what I'm experiencing. I think they just told me to get out of here, but I know I have RSD, so I'm just going to think about this for a little while before I react. Just having that information, that knowledge can help people because the brain, it adapts so quickly. If you practice pausing, you can learn to pause forever in these situations where you used to be very reactive. That is exactly true. I was taught for years. Don't press send when you're angry. Don't do it. Just don't press send, right? And it took me probably a decade to learn that. Can you know how I learned it? When you're in court, what a lawyer says is, can you read this please and you have to read one of your embarrassing emails in a court of law? That happens on occasion. That's how you learn. Can you please read this email? What did you mean by ask clown? It's indefensible when you're calm down, sober, whatever you want to call it. I know, I get it. This is where all of that shame comes in. Working with my clients on, I think it really is helpful. I'll get a lot of feedback that when they understand, oh, this is my wiring. This isn't my personality because ADHD is well combined the two. This is how I am. I'm not good at this thing. I'm not good at that thing. I have anger management issues. It's like, no, that's your wiring because you didn't ask for your wiring. It's there without your permission. You just have to learn how to rewire it, how to manage it. That really does help my clients to understand that. Do any of your kids still live at home? Six of them still live at home. How old are they from what age to what age? The ones that are living at home, the oldest will be 23 this summer. And then, and so most of them are adults. And then I have a daughter who just turned 16. Then I was remarried and I have a son who's turning nine this week. Do you know how lucky you are? I feel lucky. I feel very grateful. You're the luckiest person alive. My kid drove to school today for her first time. Okay. She'll be out of the house. She'll be going to college and I will cry like a little bitch. Okay. My son will do the same thing. Okay. Your kids are staying home with you. You get your children. They don't go anywhere. You get to love on them every day. That's the greatest thing in the world. It's the best. No, it's the best. People will make jokes like, hey, you got to kick them out. They got to, I'm like, I don't want to. Well, you know, they're like their adults, but you know, they, they have, they have good jobs. They served missions for our church. We have every Sunday and Monday nights. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Where is it? So LDS. Well, it's all over the world. No, no, I understand that. But what city? Oh, where am I? I'm in, I'm in Queen Creek, Arizona. Wow. That's great. So I had a son, Phil, a son. So my boys went out at the same time. One was in the Atlanta, Georgia area for two years and the other one was downtown Philly for two years and they were in dangerous parts of town. So they did that for two years. They both been back for a little over a year. They both have good jobs. My husband owns an HVAC company. So we got them into trades out here in Arizona. But, but they're so fun. So we're playing card games every night and we're going miniature golfing and we're watching movies together. True story. Yesterday morning out of the blue ADHD emotional me. I, I just started crying thinking that they were going to move out soon. But I don't tell people that a lot because I know they're at that age. Everyone else is going to college and they're moving out of the house and I'm so grateful that my kids are all home. I love being a mother. I'm incredibly busy with work, but there's nothing better than motherhood. And if I hadn't gotten a divorce, I probably would have had 12 kids. There's just been nothing better than raising my children. Even with all the hardships and all the things we've been through, there's nothing better. You're getting married this time over nine years, right? 11 years. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the only reason I said over nine years is because you're a born again Christian and you weren't getting knocked up with that. That's right. That's right. We were married and I, and I just married the most amazing man who had never been married, didn't have kids, walked in and just became, I mean, God has a way. You know, if you really want something and you put that energy out there and you live your life in a way that I think, you know, you try to be deserving of it, I think we're blessed for that. You know, as long as we're continuing to put good in the world and living up to our potential, and that's been my experience. I mean, I know for a fact, we want our children to grow up and exercise their independence, right? And flourish in the world. I get that. I want that. I'm just going to let that happen. Kicking and screaming because my kids, I always tell this to parents between two and six, tell me if I'm wrong between two and six are the best ages for me. Okay. It was so beautiful and so precious. Do you ever look at the kids, um, baby pictures or toddler pictures all the time? Do you ever cry when you see it? Yes, all the time. All the time, all the time. Can I tell you something? 80 HD years are the only people I know that can take an experience that happened 10 years ago and think about it today and experience the exact same intensity of emotion today as they did 10 years ago. Exact. Yes. Even more. Exactly. Yeah, I know. We're intense feelers and I love that about us. It gets us in trouble sometimes, but I love that. I would rather be this way than not. This has made me an empath. Like, I can't take the suffering of others. I just can't take it. So if I can fix it for fun and for free and it doesn't have to do with treatment, I mean, anything, I just fix it for them. I can't not. It just, it just too painful for me when people suffer. I just can't do it. But it's a gift because it's the value you're putting into the world, right? What tips could you give parents to help their children with RSD? Well, with RSD, I think the first thing is having their child read up on it because and you probably have recognized this. I mean, the average ADHD year by age 10 has had heard over 20,000 corrective messages. So there's a lot of internalizing going on and they are smart and they're comparing themselves to everybody else. So by the time they're aware that they something's going on, they don't have a name for it, they know something's wrong with me or why do I always do this? Or if somebody finds out what I'm really thinking, they're not ever going to want to talk to me again. So just educating them about what RSD is, sit down and read over RSD. I mean, Internet search or I can send you some resources will give you information on what it is, what triggers it and then teach them. And this is good for parents too. So most parents, if a child's disrespectful, you're going to call it out right there. You're not allowed to talk to me that way. Don't you dare slam that door, get back here. If your child is in the middle of an RSD episode, do not try to talk to them. If you want to give them a consequence for slamming a door or my daughter used to she loved to say, I hate you, do it later. They can't even hear you right now. They have to you have to let the episode run its course. So let them go to their room. Hopefully you want to sit down and talk to them through these things, have some boundaries and guidelines. For example, my daughter, we didn't know that one of my daughters had ADHD for a long time because really her only impairing symptom that we can really recognize is her RSD, like a little bit of focus issues. And so she would come in here as she has several times before and she would ask for help with a writing assignment, for example, and I would give her some feedback. And then it's very unpredictable. Sometimes they can take the feedback. Sometimes they can't. You don't know when it's going to show up. But here's the thing. When it shows up, they lose complete control. So to just expect them to be able to control their impulsivity, an ADHD or before their brain has fully matured, there are at least three years behind an executive function age. So when you're dealing with a 15 year old and you're expecting them to act 15, but they've got the brain of a 12 year old. And I'd argue if it's a male is probably younger than that. When it comes to staying organized or controlling their impulses, you really are asking for the impossible. So we set some boundaries. You're not allowed to yell, I hate you, but you can leave the room. And so she got better at that. She would still slam the door when she would have an episode, but she would always come out 20 or 30 minutes later. I'm so sorry, mom. I don't know why I can't control that. I'm working on it. If I were to yell at her, you get back over here. You don't slam that door. I know she has RSD. I know she's working on it. I don't parent my children the same either. I know what their strengths and weaknesses are. So sit down and talk about it. Come up with a game plan and then work with them in baby steps to learn to control. The other thing I want to mention, I have an eight year old. When it comes to younger children, if you put them in time out, like, let's say, get up in your room, you're going to trigger their episode. It more than it already is. So my eight year old has massive meltdowns more than any of my other children did. He's always crying. His feelings are hurt. Admittedly, I'm better at working with that than my husband. I have more patience. So I take over because my husband will many times when he gets impatient, ask questions like, why are you acting like this? So damaging, you know, we don't want to ask ADHD or why can't you do this? Why are you doing that? They don't actually know. So with my son, I'll still put him in time out when he's having complete meltdowns. But I put him somewhere where he's not completely isolated from the family. I also ask him for a hug. And if he won't give me one, he's pushing me away because he's in the middle of his episode. I'll tell him, I really want to hug and I'll be back in one minute to see if I can give you a hug. I continue to check in with him because he doesn't want to behave this way. He's experiencing rejection. And as soon as he comes down, he wants a hug. He wants to be told he's loved. So just keep in mind, whether it's teenagers or younger children, the more we send them away, isolate them or are critical of their reaction and behavior, the more we're triggering an episode, we're making it worse. It has to run its course. So after the episode, you'll sit there and you'll say, yeah, you know how much I love you. Yes, you're everything to me. Listen, I know you're sorry and you're as good as they come. OK, you're the best person when you're in that. OK, you're just lost for a minute. So let's try to figure out before you go to a seven, eight or nine. OK, how to reel that back in. So when you feel like your heart is starting to race, that's when you run and give mommy. Yes, I mean, I don't know if you do it that way, but that just seemed counterintuitive to me. If they're over a five, your only goal is to help them get under a five. You can have important conversations any time. You can have it later tonight. You can have it tomorrow. It doesn't have to be dealt with right now. They can't even hear you because all they're experiencing is this excruciating internal pain and rejection. So we got to take care of that before we can have real parenting time. Another thing that I'll teach parents when I'm working with families is get really good at and this is just for anybody, not just ADHD, but get really good at connection time. Because what I have found to be true is that RSD episodes, they are more frequent and they last longer when you're going through a difficult phase of life. Parents are getting a divorce. They're having a hard time at school. And the more connected they are with loved ones, they just aren't they're not coming as often. And it's easier to get through. Most parents will mix parenting time and connection time. And what I mean by that is here's a good example. They'll say, hey, they're their teenage daughter, for example. We never spend time together anymore. Will you please, please, please come with me on Saturday? We'll go get your favorite lunch and we'll go to your store and then I have to run these errands. So the teenager reluctantly says, yes, OK, I'll come. They haven't even gotten out of the neighborhood and the parents saying, you know, now that they got him in the car, how come, you know, you're not getting along with your brother lately? And I noticed you're getting a D in math. And the teenager will say in here, I am never hanging out with them on a Saturday again. They tricked me. So we want to get really good at separating the two. There's absolutely a need for parenting time. Of course, parent your children, talk to them about important things, give corrective direction. But let's not mix it with connection time. Connection time is having fun with your child, play video games with them, drive with them in the car, go get their favorite whatever drink, lip sync with them. Don't bring parenting time in. They hate it and they feel tricked. It doesn't guarantee that they're going to tell you everything. The statistics show that only one in 10 teenagers really tell their parents what's going on in their mind. But what I have found to be true is that when it really matters, when your child's cutting, for example, as mine was, or there's something really going on, they will come to you because you've gotten so good at connection time, which builds trust. They don't see you as the parent that's just always nagging what they're doing wrong. That's right. That's right. I'm really good at that. I'm really good at that. I don't ever tell my kids what they're doing wrong. Mostly because my kids aren't doing anything wrong. I don't even understand. I don't even think they're my kids. Seriously, they're that great. Huh? They're that great. Yeah. You know, and I'm afraid to get a DNA test because, you know. Can you imagine if they're not? If someone feels overwhelmed by ADHD, what are the first steps to getting help? Well, I mean, is this a plug for me? Because I've already told you, I really believe that the coaching I do is some of the most beneficial treatment and help for ADHD. Let me tell you this, because we've all been to therapists and counselors. It's not a knock against them. I think there's fantastic counselors and therapists out there. I'm really big on my page. I don't believe in traditional therapy for ADHD years because the teenagers I work with. Because it's a feeling and it isn't an executive function thing. You're assuming that we don't know. ADHD years, no. They just don't know how to get their brain engaged. It's a different language. So if they're not working with someone who has RSD, who has been there before, who's learned to rewire their brain and overcome it, it's usually not going to be very effective. That was my experience with my children. It's my experience with almost all of my clients' behavioral coaching so they understand their brain. So in my sessions, I'm taking this very specific emotional regulation model and I'm teaching it to them. And then I'm bringing in everything we know from research, acronyms, everything we know about the neurodivergent brain and blending that all together. They should not need to come here forever, a few months. And they've got everything they need and they can manage themselves. And it doesn't matter if they're using the model to overcome self-harm. And usually it's ADHD-induced anxiety and depression. Or they're just trying to learn how to make friends and improve their self-confidence. It works. They just need the right tools. I would argue that neurodivergent people are some of the most gifted people. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. I love it. Mic drop. It's true. Sure is. All right. You got anything else you want to say? Well, can I tell people where to find me? That's ex... It's right there. Where can people learn more about your work and follow what you're doing? Well, you can go to my website. I know my name is spelled weird, but it's gerrysouth.com. And I work with all of these... No, no, no. I have spell it because it's... Oh, spell it. OK. It's J-H-E-R-I-S-O-U-T-H.com. I want them to be able to see the video clips that I saw. What's your handle on Instagram? Yeah. Sure. Yeah. I'm pretty heavy on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube. So on Instagram, I'm Ms. JerrySouth, M-S, JerrySouth. And then on Facebook and YouTube, I'm just JerrySouth. And people can sign up for free consult with me. You can do that from social media or on my website. On my website, I have lots of testimonials. I have a group cohort for adults where we focus on RSD primarily, but we go over everything, boundaries, healthy relationships, executive function. And then I still work with teens as well. So I work with all the... Do you have family sessions or work with the parents separately when you're working with a child to get these people doing what they should be doing, which is changing along with the child? Yes, absolutely. So it usually comes in a package of sessions, and then each family is different. So if the parent-child dynamic is a little bit toxic, the parents are a lot more involved in coming to the sessions together. If not, then I am just teaching them what I'm teaching the child, because they need to be on board with what the child's learning. But as I said before, most ADHD children have an ADHD parent, and parents will usually pay to get their child help before they'll get their own help. But it's important that they learn the same things that the child's learning, because when they're managed and they're regulated, it just everything runs smoother at home. Absolutely. Do you know the only thing after I asked that question that came into my head was all the Karen parents that are going to be saying, I'm not changing. I mean, you get that all the time, right? Well, and that's why the child is struggling. I mean, when I was doing a lot of things, say it again. And that's why the child is struggling. Yeah. Let me tell you something. When I first started doing, I was working with teens, and I ran a pilot program because my son was struggling and the women were saying, we work with teens. And I thought, no, my son hates me. I don't want to do that. And it was the first thing that helped him. So I started doing these live three or four week sessions, these groups. And I would always have a parent night. And I would always have two or three kids in the class that were struggling more than all of the other kids. I could always call which parents weren't going to show up to parent night. And I was always right without fail. Like these are the kids that are struggling. These are the parents that will have an excuse and they won't come to parent night and they didn't. And parent night was reviewing everything they'd been learning, what the strengths are, weaknesses. Then I would offer a parent session. They were the only ones that didn't come. And so you see a pattern here where when parents come to me and they say, I know I need to learn too. I probably need to make some big changes. I know I'm doing my best, but I'm probably doing everything wrong. I love it when parents say that because it shows humility. I will do whatever it takes to fix this instead of, here, fix my child. Well, they'll put it in length to be of service to getting their children well. That's the real thing. And they're not above changing themselves. Who here doesn't? I've done so much work on myself and I'm not done. Who doesn't benefit from working on themselves, from looking internally and figuring out what they can change? No, that's the meaning of life. If you get to find out who you are and to be your best self and then to leave this place better than you found it, there's nothing to get. There's only to give. All right. I appreciate your time today. I think you've created this little niche for yourself which is far more prevalent than people are aware of and have no idea whatsoever how to get started. See you next Tuesday. There it is. We're out of time. Please subscribe on YouTube. Click the thumbs up and leave a comment. Please subscribe on Apple Podcast and Spotify and leave a rating and a review. And share the We're Out of Time podcast with others you know who will get value out of it. See you next Tuesday.