It's Christmas time at Abby's house. Garland everywhere, candles in every window, little jingle bells on every doorknob here and there. It's her favorite time of year. But this December, Abby doesn't want to drink eggnog or sing carols. She's back from her first semester at Liberty University. And it's been rough. She's missing her son. I used to drive by the hospital where I gave birth to him all the time. It was where all my memories with him were. It felt like he was still there somehow. And she's lonely. I just felt so disassociated from people my age. Like, everyone's like listening to Taylor Swift and working at Forever 21, and I couldn't care less about any of this. The only person she wants to talk to, the only person she feels could understand her, is her ex, Nathan. But I was terrified of that feeling because it was like the epitome of the worst thing I could possibly want. I just knew that if I told my parents how I was feeling, that I would be in massive trouble. But now that she's in Charlotte for Christmas and only a few miles away from him, That yearning to talk to Nathan keeps getting stronger, especially because she hasn't gotten a warm welcome back home. I begin to notice more and more and more with absolute certainty that my father is ignoring me. He's not talking to me. He's dodging being in the same space as me. One night, close to the end of winter break, she and her dad find themselves sitting at opposite ends of the living room. Everyone else has gone to bed. Abby's dad avoids eye contact. It's quiet. It's tense. Finally, Abby can't take it anymore. I just kind of word vomited and was just like, what is going on? She's done everything he's asked. She's given up her son. Am I not obeying you enough? Am I not following your rules the way you want me to? What more can I say and do? why don't you seem like you love me anymore? He essentially started yelling at me that none of it was his fault. I was the whore and the slut that ruined our family and destroyed everything. Months and months of pent-up anger come barreling out. And he chased me up the stairs and I yelled something at him, defending myself and my mom and my sisters come out of their bedrooms and they're just standing there with like their mouths open. and I just screamed back up at them, do you guys see what he's doing? Do you not see what's happening? And I just ran away. I ran as fast as I could out of my door and up my street in the dark at night. And I called Nathan and I just said, will you come get me? And he just raced across town and was there to get me immediately. Abby gets into his car, adrenaline coursing through her body. And he was so nervous and just trying to drive and kind of erotic patterns and take me somewhere random because he was super nervous that we were being tailed and followed and that my parents were going to track us down, you know. They drive across town and find a place to park. They're finally alone now, face to face. We just started to talk and just everything just is flooding out of both of us like crazy. We cried a lot. It was just like, there is so much that needs to be said, but we still love each other. It's still here. And then we started making out and that was very sexy, actually. From that moment on, Abby's done with her parents' rules. She's ready to try something new. This time, she's going to follow her heart right back to Nathan. I'm super blessed to be reunited with Abby and tried to use it as the gift of the second opportunity. But a second chance is different than a clean break. Abby's no longer at the godparent home, and she's cutting ties with her family. But Abby and Nathan will soon learn that the godparent home's influence extends far beyond its doorstep. This episode is brought to you by Audible. Sometimes the right story comes along exactly when you need it, opening your eyes to new perspectives or simply helping you make sense of things. That's what makes Audible special. There's always another story waiting to move you. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash liberty lost. That's audible.com slash liberty lost. From Wondery, I'm TJ Raphael, and this is Liberty Lost. I have to go. This is Episode 5, All the King's Men. My parents knew they lost me that night that I ran away from home. After that blow-up at her house, Abby stays with Nathan and his family for the remainder of Christmas break. She stops talking to her mom and dad. And when she goes back to Liberty University for the spring semester, Nathan comes to visit her every weekend. We were just back together. It was like there was no like talk. There was no like deciding. We just were. And that was, I guess, when we actually finally were dating because like before that, before I got pregnant, we weren't allowed to be alone together. They're finally just a couple doing couple things. And at the end of the spring semester, Abby leaves Lynchburg for good. She decides to finish her degree at Liberty Online and moves in with Nathan and his parents. At the start of summer, on vacation with his family in Myrtle Beach. That's when Nate like officially asked me to marry him. I already knew he was going to. I already knew about the ring. I told him what I wanted. They're excited to start this new chapter. And soon after that, they get some news they've been praying for. Their son's parents have agreed to move forward with the open adoption. The future looks just a little bit brighter. A few months later, in the fall of 2009, Abby and Nathan get married in Charleston, South Carolina, at a family friend's house. It was really beautiful. There was like a dock with like the marshlands. There are white string lights wrapped around tree trunks. The wind ruffles the palmetto palms and the long grass in the marshlands. And they have some special guests in attendance. Their son, who we're calling Jay, and the adoptive couple. His parents have agreed to let Jay be the ring bearer. Jay's not old enough to walk on his own, so the plan is for him to get wheeled out in Abby's childhood red wagon. In the late afternoon, the ceremony begins. Nathan takes his place at the altar. Abby steps out from the house in a lacy A-line gown. And I look down the stairs because I'm up above in this house looking down over where the ceremony was. And she spots her son being wheeled down the aisle. He looks so much like a blend of Nate and I. It's striking. And I just, I fell apart at the utter seams. And I was just sobbing hysterically, snot everywhere. Someone rushes to get Abby some tissues. She fixes her makeup and tries to pull herself together before she heads down the aisle. And I don't think a single person in that place thought I was crying that hard over marrying Nathan. It's a challenge to bounce back after that. It was a very hard, overwhelming day. I was grateful that my son was there. But of course, my head is living in a fantasy, imagining a reality where he leaves the ceremony with us and comes on our honeymoon and comes back home with me. Like, there's no way my brain can stop playing out that fantasy in my head the whole day. And then after the ceremony, there's a little bit of dancing, and I'm holding him in my wedding dress, and I have a picture of that, and it's just fucked. Even though Abby and Nathan are getting what they hoped for, an open adoption, access to their son, and a set of parents who are honoring their requests, there's still pain. That pain of losing a child and grieving someone who's still alive. After the wedding, Jay goes back home, and Abby and Nathan head to a beach a few hours away for their honeymoon. But Abby doesn't find any peace laying by the shore. My depression, I just was struggling so much with it. A honeymoon should feel like the start of something. But instead, everything just feels wrong and surreal. Abby keeps looking back at the last year and a half and wondering, how the hell did she get here? How did she go from being a normal millennial teen to a childless mother who wakes up every day in the throes of grief? And how could the people at the godparent home act like it was all for the best? The only person I talked to who could answer that question is Sarah P. I ended up working for the Godparent Home. All of the people involved in it, including myself, you're essentially indoctrinated. Sarah's seen both sides. She arrived at the home as a pregnant teen around the same time as Abby, and she gave birth just a few months before her. Even though she was all in on adoption, Sarah didn't realize how hard that decision would be. As painful and as hard as it was you know I just kept thinking I doing this for him This is what best for him After she places her son she returns to Liberty on scholarship While she's a student living on campus, the Godparent Home asks Sarah to come back and talk to the residents about her journey. And she writes blogs for the website. She's like the living embodiment of the home's mission. Her decision showed that women who got pregnant from assault didn't need to end a pregnancy. And when she graduates, Sarah stays involved. She takes a job on staff as a case manager at the godparent home. She comes in at a time when the demographics of the home are changing. There's less stigma around single, middle-class girls like her having babies. And so if you wanted to stay open and if you wanted clients, they need to be able to expand their reach. The staff has been looking into how to get licensed with the Virginia Department of Social Services. A license would mean it could take in girls from the foster care system. And even help girls that maybe needed it the most. As Sarah helps file the paperwork, she works with a new group of incoming residents. I had a girl that was extremely adamant about parenting. She had no parents in her life, pretty much. They dropped her off and left. And that left her at the godparent home with me being really the only support. Sarah helps the girl create a parenting plan. It's essentially a list of questions about money. Where are you going to live? How are you going to pay for this? Are you going to get a job? But as the girl tries to answer them, Sarah begins to realize something. I felt like the whole point of the parenting plan was to show you that you couldn't do it, not to actually come up with a plan that you could do or that you would be successful with. Sarah had wanted an adoption, so she never did a parenting plan herself. Now, she's seeing what happens to girls trying to go down that other path. The girls still have to meet with adoption counselors. Because, you know, they wanted to make really, really sure that they couldn't change your mind. They would try to be kind of careful to not be super overt. That would be illegal. But that attitude was there. And then if you had a parent backing you up, it really became extremely evident what the push was. The scholarship Sarah was so happy to get, she starts to see it differently now. It was used as a leverage point. Sarah's a birth mom. She knows how hard adoption can be, even if it's something you choose for yourself. I was very anti-pressure. I didn't want to force anybody to do something that they didn't want to do or didn't feel was right. Sarah helps this girl scrape together a little money. She lines up child care and finds a safe place for her to live with her baby. But none of those resources were already in place. Those were all things that I did as a case manager on my own. The girl gets to keep her baby. The system inside the home didn't make it easy. But Sarah proves that if a caseworker wants to make it happen, she can. Sarah helps her next girl keep her baby too. But that case gets a little more complicated. Right as the girl goes into labor, she asks Sarah if she can tell her boyfriend that the baby's coming. Sarah knows the rules. No contact without parental approval. So Sarah calls the girl's dad, asks if that's okay. He says yes. The girl reaches out to her boyfriend while she's in labor. We found out a few weeks later that he was sending her abusive messages. I wish I had known more what to do, more how to help. There was no training about how to identify domestic violence or talk to the girls about domestic violence. Yes, I had graduated with a psych degree, but I was 22, fresh out of college. Sarah gets fired soon after. It was a little frustrating that I felt like I was held so responsible for that situation when I had followed every, you know, protocol. It's not clear if Sarah was let go because of what happened with the boyfriend, or because she helped her girls keep their babies, or both. I reached out to Sarah's boss at the time, Janelle Basham, for clarification, but Janelle wouldn't agree to an interview. She did send me a statement that read in part, quote, I have nothing but positive things to say about the work the team did and does to support birth mothers and parents. In the years after she leaves the godparent home, Sarah keeps in touch with her son and his parents. She feels like she got really lucky with them. They have been wonderful parents to him. She keeps expecting the pain that came with the adoption to fade. But it doesn't. If anything, it gets worse. Even if you're trying to move on, you are conscious that there is a piece of you out there. When she was a resident at the home, nobody prepared her for this. A lot of the negatives never occurred to me and were never brought up or even thought about, as far as I can tell by any of the adults giving you this messaging. They knew what was best for us, not us. And what was best was to place. Sarah doesn't think that the people who worked at the home were being cynical when they said that. They really believed they were doing the right thing. Sarah's boss, Janelle, had worked hard with Sarah to get the home licensed. Knowing Janelle and her heart and her passion, I think she really hoped to kind of transform the program in a lot of ways. Janelle also created a program that would let new moms stay at the home with their babies for the first few months after delivery. But the program only had room for one mom at a time. And in the end, the home didn't renew the license it needed to continue offering that. Their intentions might have been good, but for Sarah, that didn't balance out the damage they'd done. I don't think people really examined how this is impacting the people involved, particularly over the long term. But when you've been raised in this culture where that's the attitude and that's the idea and that's the values that you're living by, it's a whole cultural attitude that's there that enables this to happen. It's not right that you're about to be a single parent. It's not right, you know, if you end up needing government assistance. I mean, I wouldn't have even worked there if I hadn't had the biases that I had. But when you're opening a maternity home to lower abortions and your mindset is that adoption is an alternative, it just naturally snowballs into pressure. And that's how I think that good and caring people can become instruments in coercion. Sarah never wanted to coerce anyone and she never expected that she'd question the godparent home's mission but seeing up close how a place works it can change what you believe in I guess in my heart I always knew I would have to end up talking about this at some point it really changed my opinion about the godparent home about the university, and in a lot of ways, it influenced my faith in God himself. is like having countless storytellers right in your pocket. The best part? These stories fit right into your life. Whether you're stuck in traffic, going for a walk, or just taking some time for yourself, Audible turns everyday moments into opportunities for discovery. Take Lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Garmus, a witty, moving story about a brilliant woman fighting for her place in a world that's not ready for her. It's the kind of story that'll make you laugh out loud one minute and feel all the feelings the next. Ready to find your next great listen? New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash liberty lost. That's audible.com slash liberty lost. There's no way that this was going to stay hidden forever. Evan Cater worked in Child Protective Services in Lynchburg for a year, starting in 2014. He's a soft-spoken Air Force veteran with good manners. While he was still active duty in the military, he began pursuing his bachelor's degree online through Liberty University. And that's when he started to cross paths with the godparent home. While I was a student there, we had received a lot of emails saying, hey, we're really trying to make our godparent home a lot better. They wanted to give people an alternative to pursuing an abortion. What could be wrong with giving people more options? It seemed like a good thing to me. Evan reaches out to the godparent home to see if he can help with a donation drive. Maybe collect baby clothes and diapers. He sends them an email. but the home tells him they don't need any supplies for newborns. What they said was we need money. A lot of charities do this. They say, just give us the money. We know what to do. So, Evan brushed it off He continued with his military service and completed his bachelor online with Liberty Eventually he decided to get his master degree at the school too And during his program he has to take a few classes on campus And Evan likes the vibe of Lynchburg a lot. He likes it so much that he and his family moved to town. And so I was looking for jobs in that area. I saw a posting for a CPS investigator. CPS is short for Child Protective Services. Evan figures this job has to be less stressful than being in the military. I guess I didn't completely understand how terrible some people were to their children. And it's when Evan starts his job with CPS that he hears about the godparent home again. Thanks in part to Sarah, the godparent home was now licensed with the state as a children's residential facility, which meant they could get a steady supply of pregnant teens from foster care or through the court system. Anytime that I took custody of a child and brought them into the system, I would have to consult with our supervisor over there in foster care and placement. And when I walked in, I said, we have a young woman who's pregnant. She said, we're not sending her to the godparent home. And I said, OK, well, you obviously feel very strongly about that. You know, what's what's the deal? She told me that they had previously had some pregnant young women who were placed there through the foster care system. And a number of them had reported back that they were being pressured to give up their children in exchange for a scholarship. And she said they sell babies. Evan's not sure what to make of this. Maybe his supervisor is just blowing things out of proportion. Is this a person who has a negative opinion about the university and doesn't want to be involved? Or is this a legitimate thing? The person who I was speaking with was somebody who I knew and I respected and I had high opinion of. So it really made me wonder. Evan arranges for the pregnant teen to be placed in foster care. But a few months after Evan hears this warning from his boss, he gets called in to deal with another teenage girl. She was at an adolescent psych unit at a hospital in Lynchburg. When Evan gets there, he learns that this girl was dropped off by the police. They picked her up earlier that day at Liberty Godparent Home. She had wound up pregnant, and her mother up in Maryland had just decided one day to put her on an Amtrak train, send her to Lynchburg, and expect the godparent home to take care of her. This girl tells Evan that when she got to the home, they asked a lot of questions about her intentions. Hey, do you want to pursue an adoption, or are you trying to keep this child? and her response had been that she was trying to keep the child. But the staff at the godparent home didn't let up. She told me that they were pressuring her to pursue an adoption and she was adamant that she wanted to keep the baby. Once she had finally convinced them that she was not going to adopt this baby, she told me that's when they told her she had to leave. She started to panic. She didn't have anywhere else to go. I guess she had gotten into some verbal altercations with some of the staff, and they had called the police. What she told me was the godparent home had made it clear to her that she was not welcome to stay there, that she would have to leave because she was keeping the child. It was absolutely counterintuitive to the image they were presenting. They were there to help young girls in need. That was Jerry Falwell's promise, right? And when they walk through that door, immediately they're wrapped up in love. Our counselors, our pastors, our social workers, they're all here to help that young girl, to show her this is a home of love. Evan reached out to this girl's mother and explained what happened. Could she come pick up her daughter? Her mom refused. I was forced to take emergency custody of this pregnant teenager and place her in the foster care system. Evan went back to his office, and he started to compare what the girl had told him with his memories of going to Falwell's church. They have these families over at Thomas Road Baptist Church. They would use high-pressure sales techniques to try to get them to adopt children. They'd come in and they'd say, oh, there's this young girl who's found herself pregnant and we talked her out of getting an abortion and now we just need somebody to adopt the baby and give it a loving Christian home. And, you know, this is your Christian duty. After all that, Evan's opinion of the godparent home changed. I very much got the impression that it was a baby selling operation. They said that they were there to protect life. And it was apparent to me that unless they were able to monetize that life, they had no interest in it. I reached out to the Godparent Home to talk about Evan's claim. They never responded to me. Liberty Godparent Home is exploiting people. It is exploiting young women in crisis. And in my opinion, it should be shut down. I reached out next to the Virginia State Department of Social Services. They're the people who supervise in state adoptions and residential homes. I wanted to know if the Godparent Home or Family Life Services was breaking the law. Officials said that, in general, both facilities have been in compliance with regulatory and statutory requirements. I asked them point-blank if coercing and pressuring pregnant teens into surrendering their babies for adoption was against the law. They said that they did not have, quote, any record or information responsive to this matter. Instead, they pointed me to the legal code for licensed children's residential facilities and child-placing agencies. So, I reviewed the code and found several laws the Godparent Home and Family Life Services should have been complying with. Laws that say that minors living at a facility shouldn't be forced to go to church, that adoption agencies have to give factual information to birth parents, and make sure that no one is surrendering their baby under duress. I wrote the state back, outlining every possible violation I saw, and I asked if they planned to open an investigation. Their answer was no. Even though the godparent home is still open today, it let its license to house girls from foster care expire back in 2022. So Virginia Social Services said it wasn't up to them to investigate wrongdoing. When it came to Family Life Services, which is still licensed with the state, they wouldn't say whether or not they planned to open an investigation. Instead, they directed me to an online complaint form. When I asked Evan why officials hadn't stepped in, He told me that CPS can only investigate allegations of child abuse and neglect by the people caring for a child. But it wasn't just that. A lot of people who work for the government are Liberty alumni. I was, the CPS supervisor was, a good amount of the police officers on Lynchburg PD were. I know a couple officers who retired from Lynchburg PD and then immediately just transitioned over to working for the university. Liberty University is one of the largest employers in the region. Five of the seven members of the Lynchburg City Council have ties to Liberty or Jerry Falwell's church. And it's precisely because Liberty is so powerful that Evan was actually afraid to talk to me. The only reason he did was because I told him about Abby's story. You know, consequences be damned, this is the truth. If I could say something to Abby, what I would say to her is, I believe you. I'm sorry for what you went through, and I'm proud of you for standing up. In the past few years, some brave people have started speaking out against the school. At least 23 people have filed lawsuits against the Christian University. In 2021, a group of women sued Liberty for how it handled their sexual assaults while they were students or employees. She says the university did nothing to protect her or even investigate. And their allegations would set off one of the largest Title IX investigations in American history. Department of Education making a statement with what looks like a pretty stiff punishment. and bring to light a startling new detail about the godparent home. When I started to dig into the Liberty godparent home, I was surprised at how little there was out there about it. Almost nobody I talked to had heard of it. But then, in 2021, Liberty was hit with a lawsuit over how it handled sexual assaults. And one of the plaintiffs sat down for an interview with WFXR, a local station. Her name was Sarah Mays. While she was a student at Liberty, five men assaulted her, and one of them chased her onto campus with a knife. So she went to Liberty for help. I wrote two reports in their office, one of which they had me come back and fabricate. They said that if I couldn't be sure what kind of knife it was, that I maybe didn't know it was a knife. Then she went to the Lynchburg police, but they threatened to arrest her if she didn't admit that she was lying. Soon after that, she learned she was pregnant and made an appointment with Liberty's Dean of Women office. Sarah was given two choices I could always go through the Liberty Godparent home give up my baby and they would give me a four scholarship Or option two expulsion Most of the coverage of the lawsuit focused on the ways Liberty pressured women to retract their allegations or failed to investigate them. And how the culture on campus shifted the blame for sexual assault onto women. Sarah's accusation that Liberty also pressured pregnant rape victims to go to the godparent home didn't get any kind of follow-up coverage. But the lawsuit did catch the eye of the Department of Education, which began its own investigation. And last year, they hit Liberty University with a $14 million fine, the largest ever of its kind, for its mishandling of sexual assaults. The fine was accompanied by a detailed 108-page report of the government's investigation. I read the report, looking for a mention of the godparent home. And then finally, on page 79, there it was. The report reads, quote, That means there were other women, possibly lots of others, like Sarah Mays. I read on to see what the Department of Education was going to do with that information. They had two recommendations. The report says that the godparent home needs to be reclassified as a dorm if it's housing students. And it also needs to have the same fire safety measures as other on-campus housing. That's it. I reached out to the Department of Education with a long list of questions. They'd spent over a year investigating how liberty had violated the rights of students. I wanted to understand how forcing pregnant women to move into the godparent home, where they'd have to give up almost all their freedoms and possibly their baby, didn't qualify as a violation on its own. But they didn't answer my questions. Instead, they emailed me back the same information they included in the report. Every time I thought I'd found the agency that could hold the home accountable, they didn't. When you look at what happened to Abby and Nathan, and Tony, and Zoe, it doesn't seem fair. It's not fair. Their whole lives were changed forever. However, the godparent home told them it was for the best. They tell you that, like, you're going to heal and get back to a normal life. But you don't. Nathan and Abby get reminded of that on their first few visits to CJ now that the adoption has officially opened. They drive five hours down south and stay in a cottage near the adoptive parent's home. They just hosted us in, like, a very southern way. Like, Southern behavior is just like a lot of smiling, talking about religion, saving face, and not saying anything that makes the other person feel uncomfortable. There isn't a rulebook for how an open adoption works. So Abby's constantly looking for clues about what's allowed when she makes a comment in passing about Jay's curly hair. Oh my God, I had hair just like this when I was little. My hair was ringlitty, like everyone called me Shirley Temple. Jay's mother doesn't engage. She changes the topic back to her family. How everybody at church thought it was so adorable, how both of their adopted boys both had blonde hair and blue eyes, like it was God's plan all along. Abby and Nathan learn to tread lightly. In most of the country, open adoption agreements are not legally binding. Adoptive couples can close them for any reason at any time. You need to be exactly what this family wants you to be, or they have the ability to never give you contact. I knew anything can change based on how someone's feeling, if they're scared or if they're hurt, right? So Abby monitors herself carefully when she's around Jay. I try to give him, when I do take my hugs, I make them as intense as I possibly can, but I try not to do too many because I know that I'm not allowed. On the car rides back home from each visit, Abby and Nathan can barely speak to each other. I didn't allow myself to feel very much. Like, I was really shut down on it. And then our grieving process was different, and there was a lot of rage between each other, and a lot of reliving the trauma over and over again. But they have to keep moving forward. As newlyweds back in the suburbs of Charlotte, they save money by living at Nathan's parents' place. Abby takes college classes online and works at a stationery store. Nathan takes on extra work for his dad's landscaping business. And it just started to creep into my head, like, what if I had a baby to hold? And I just started to crave it like it was going to kill me. Not long into their first year of marriage, Abby gets pregnant again This time, it's a girl And the pregnancy is the opposite of her first Every moment of being pregnant with my daughter was just so healing I was just like, so in a headspace of bliss and like connection with her Two years after their daughter Evelyn is born, they welcome another boy, Liam. And they begin to bring their kids along on their visits to CJ. In some ways, it's wonderful. All three of the kids run around with each other. They laugh and play. In other ways, it's terrifying. All of those unspoken rules are still there, and they're hard to explain to kids. We tried to sit down with a, you know, a six-year-old and a four-year-old and be like, okay, guys, like, he's your brother, but like, try not to go this direction in a conversation. Don't talk about this. Don't talk about this. Abby's especially worried about their daughter. I'm like, I can sense it in my gut on this next visit we're going on. She's gonna say something to her brother. She's at that age. She can't help it. And after that visit, Abby gets the text message she was fearing. It's from Jay's mom. It basically said, your daughter told our son, I am just his stepmother, not his real mother, and he is traumatized. And obviously, you guys cannot be trusted. And I need to be teaching my daughter the correct information or else we will not be permitted contact any longer. You know, I just, I responded to her and I was just like, You know, a stepmother, like, she has friends that have stepmothers. She can't understand the complexity of the situation. I've been bending over backwards trying to help her understand, educate her about the dynamics of what's going on. But please have grace with my daughter. They're just children. I reached out to Jay's parents, but I never heard back. But Abby's able to smooth things over enough to maintain their scheduled FaceTime calls and yearly in-person visits. On those visits, Jay still laughs and plays with his little sister and brother. But as he gets older, Abby sometimes thinks she sees this look of sadness in his eyes, especially when the visit's over and they go back home without him. Like he's wondering why he's the kid who didn't get chosen. We're just this happy family in his mind, off to the side, you know, that don't need or want him. with no explanation as to why he's the one we didn't want. There's never a chance to talk about it. They don't get alone time with him. Abby tries again to talk to Jay's mom about why the adoption happened. Jay's going to have questions about it. If not now, sometime soon. The conversation doesn't go well. She literally just put her hand on my arm and she said, I just want to comfort you and tell you that he's exactly where the Lord always intended for him to be. Abby doesn't push it for now. She promises herself that when Jay's a teenager, she'll try again. Those early teen years, it's a time when a lot of adoptees start to think more about why they were adopted. And the question itself can trigger feelings of grief and abandonment. In the summer of 2022, Jay turns 14. Abby tells Nathan it's time. Nathan's not so sure. They're in this open adoption, but... I was viscerally aware of the fact that at any time, they could change that. But I was like, but we're causing trauma by feeding into the lack of answers. Abby's willing to risk it all to make sure he knows the truth. The four parents get on a phone call. We have to either get our way and beg and plead and maybe get through, or we lose contact and that's it. That's on the next and final episode of Liberty Lost. From Wondery, this is episode five of six of Liberty Lost. Liberty Lost is hosted, reported, and written by me, TJ Raphael. Our senior producer is Natalie Shisha. Senior story editor is Phyllis Fletcher. Producer is Rachel Young. Associate producer is Mariah Dennis. Additional production support from Emily Locke and Malachi Wade. Fact-checking by Jacqueline Colletti. Original score by William Ryan Fritsch. Sound design and Dolby Atmos mixing by Jamie Cooper. Audio assistance by Daniel William Gonzalez. Sound supervisor is Marcelina Villalpando. Music supervisor is Scott Valesquez for Freeze on Sync. Managing producer is Heather Baloga. Senior managing producer is Lita Pandia. Development producer is Olivia Weber. Supervising development editor is Rachel B. Doyle. Executive producers are Nigeri Eaton, George Lavender, Marshall Louis, and Jen Sargent for Wondery
