Ep. - 1525 - SOUTHERN CHARM AND THE TRAITORS

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It mixes easily with water or smoothies, making it simple, enjoyable routine that you can stick to every single day. Right now get 15% off the Super Elixir at WellCo.com and use Kate KC15 at checkout. Try it for yourself and feel a difference within weeks. That's W-E-L-L-E-C-O.com code Kate KC15 at checkout for 15% off the Super Elixir. 15% off at W-E-L-L-E-C-O.com promo code Kate KC15, first time orders only. 500 orders a month was manageable. 5,000 is madness! Embrace intelligent order fulfillment with ShipStation, the only platform combining order management, warehouse workflows, inventory, returns and analytics in one place. What used to take five separate tools, ShipStation does in one. Go to ShipStation.com and use code START to try ShipStation free for 60 days. The Amazing Kate KC! Welcome back for another episode of Reality Life with Kate KC. I hope that you've had a great weekend. I've got a great episode for you today because we're going to dive into two different reality shows, The Traders on Peacock and Southern Charm on Bravo. And I couldn't have asked for a better guest to break it all down with me. Today I'm joined by my friend, Elisa Rosen, who has such a sharp eye for reality TV storytelling and always watches with the producer's brain. Now I know a lot of you have a group of friends that you typically text when you're watching something. I'm always texting with Elisa and she gets fired up about so many of the shows that you guys know and love so much. Elisa has worked in entertainment for over 25 years. She truly understands what goes into shaping these kinds of unscripted narratives. So her takes are always next level. She's the founder of AYR Media, a full service production company. She launched in 2020, which focuses on premium unscripted and scripted content across podcasts, TV and film. So her podcast work includes audible hits like Bitter Blood, Funny My Way, Queen of the Con, which I know you loved as well. I'm actually in two different seasons of Queen of the Con, The Real Killer and The Murder Years among many others. And she's also produced Hallmark Media's first ever scripted podcast called Crimson Hearts Collide. She's a ton of additional projects currently in development in streaming and for TV. And she's co-created and produced the case of Jombani Ramsey for CBS. And she's behind the Amazon Prime documentary series Spy High, which you remember that I covered last year. And beyond all of that, she's directed and produced the acclaimed feature film Ladder Day Jew. So when it comes to analyzing the twists, the editing choices, character arcs and behind the scenes strategy of shows like The Traders and Southern Charm, she really is the person that you want to be next to you. So I know that you're going to love this episode and I hope you share it with the people who are also in your text chain. And don't forget to wait to the end of the interview because I tell you, it's such an embarrassing story. So again, make sure that you are subscribed to this podcast. Please join the Facebook group, Reality Life with Kate Casey and get that What to Watch list every week by going to KateCasey.Substack.com. Here is my interview with Aliza. Aliza Rosen, you are back. I'm back. It's been a while. It's been a while. Do you remember when you came to Wondery Studio and we did a little interview many, many moons ago? Oh, I remember it. You were either pregnant or like about to get pregnant with your fifth. I just drove past that spot the other day and it's just so it's like four lease, totally shop closed down. It's crazy. I mean, crazy. So much has changed. It's been a long time. And then across the street was Oppenheim Group and they took down the scaffolding, the greenery. Well, I heard it was illegal. They must have done that just for filming, right? They did it for filming and then I heard like it was actually illegal so they had to take it down. Oh yeah. You're not even allowed to do this. What are you doing? I know. It's just saying nothing of like a fire hazard. Insane. Yeah. Insane. Anyway, I'm excited to talk to you because I want to ask you a bunch of questions through the lens of like a producer because you're going to watch shows different than say somebody who is an accountant or I don't know, works at a school, right? Sure. Annoyingly so sometimes. Yes. Probably, right? You're noticing things that other people don't. So let's talk a little bit about the traders first, of the traders. Just finished episode seven, highly dramatic banquet. The traders were tasked with eliminating a faithful right in front of their eyes. You've got Jam Jam murdered during the banquet using the poison brooch mechanic, which is a weird twist. He was dragged out while accusing Lisa Rinna of being responsible. I believe he said she kissed me on the cheek. Then we've got after the banquet, suspicions are running high, especially around Lisa. You've got this newly introduced dagger advantage. So Rob plays a strategic role in casting votes. Lisa's then banished from the game at the round table, making her the second trader to be exposed and send home the season. And what do you think thus far into this into the season? Who's who are standouts? What do you think? I love the season. I think obviously Rob is the major standout. I mean, you watch Love Island, right? Yes. Yeah. I mean, Rob was not made for that show. I mean, he's obviously a great looking guy and there was drama around him, but he just seemed so uncomfortable on that entire show. Just like get me off of this. And he, so I did not expect anything from him on traders. I just thought he was going to be the same boring dude. And wow. So I watch it with my daughter and we're just like, hold me, mommy. Like she's 18, you know, and we're like this guy, he's mesmerizing. He's not just, you know, obviously extremely good looking, but he's so good at the game. Like he really, it's the way he's moving through it so confidently and strategically and smartly. I mean, I was dying. I'm sure you were too at the round table with Rafa Port when he's going commiserating. And I'm thinking, oh, why is he saying commiserating? And then he finally says, it's not commiserate. And I'm like, I love that Rob, the snake wrangler is the only one at that table to know that he's using the word completely wrong. And so that, that actually was helpful, I think to the, to the viewers because it's like, oh, this guy actually really is smart. And he's just been kind of playing the dumb boy, but he's actually really good. And he's clearly in his element, loving, savoring this game. So he is a huge standout. I actually thought Rena was really fun and not a good trader, but super fun to watch. Like I had had it with her at the end of housewives. I was really ready for her to go. Of course, now we all miss her because nothing's happening. But I definitely thought like, I don't need to but I did think when she was cast, like, okay, she will be a good trader because she's so nefarious. And she was good and she wasn't good. Like when, when Colton had that little sidebar with her and he's like, I'm going to hold you hostage, which was very unnerving given what we know about his past. Exactly. Yeah. Like I would be the worst trader. Okay. I don't know, but I think you'd be a really good trader, but I would be the worst. Like in that moment, I would have been like, okay, fine, I'll go with you to the finish line. Like I would have broken immediately. So I was actually worried she was going to do the same. And I thought she did. Okay. I think she actually showed herself in that moment. I think she was caught off guard. Other people, other people, but like what I'm saying is like, I couldn't even put up a front for like one sec. I've been like, okay, fine. And I don't know how like, I think it's a really hard game to play. I don't know. Maybe I'm just a really bad liar, but I, I would have a really hard time. Like I went, I went back. So I watched last season and then I'm watching this season, but I had never watched before then. So I went back and I watched season two recently, like a few weeks ago. And I don't know if you remember everything. So it was the scene with Sharae and Phaedra who are actual friends. And basically it's like toward the end, like it's like five of them are left and Sharae is like, I just need you to tell me if you're a traitor. And Phaedra's like, I am square on my life. Like I'm not a traitor. And I'm thinking like, there's just no way I could do that. I could not look one of my good friends in the eyes and she's begging me to tell her the truth. Like I know it's a game and I know she's, I know you would be fine. You're, you're cold as ice. I can't do it. Yeah, I can do it. Yeah. Did you apply it? You should go on though. I thought about it, but it's, that's a long time away. Two weeks. It is a long time away. Yeah. But like how fun. I know, I know. Heather McDonald said, oh, just do it. You should do it. Did Heather apply? Heather would be good too. I think she would just have her agent call somebody, right? Like, does she apply at this point? Yeah, maybe not. Right. Good point. Good point. I also thought, here's the great thing when you come from a dysfunctional family. Is that you learn very quickly how to read people because you have to know like how to be safe in a room. Right? Yes. I think that is an advantage when you're on a show like this. And I felt like when Colton confronted Lisa, she was off guard because she's usually the person that's sort of like running the show. And she's not used to actual confrontation like that. Totally. Yeah. No, that's a really good point. Colton, what do you think of Colton? I think he's extremely calculating. I think he's kind of in love with Rob. I mean, first of all, who would blame him? I know. I mean, I think they all are, but I think he's particularly like very into him. I love when Johnny goes, I can't even look at him. But honestly, like literally it's like looking at the sun. Imagine meeting Colton's husband sitting on the couch watching this with him. That might be a little uncomfortable. But like Rob might be a little bit in love with Colton too, like in the Aaron way. Yeah. Remember his bromance with Aaron? It's possible. You know, I also think this show, the one thing that kind of keeps me up at night. Well, I should say always does is that sometimes the rules, they throw them these new rules and they don't always make sense. I think they need to dumb them down a little bit. And I think it needs to be more equitable. Like the dagger challenge, for example, you're going to have like Colton and Rob and Steven Coletti and Natalie like run up the hill. Honestly, I was like, I'd run up the hill. Like, but you have others that just can't. And then I just feel like maybe they do that so that the meatheads have a chance to like have some fairness in this. Because I obviously like the housewives can run circles around them at a round table. Right. I'm actually shocked by how physical the show is. And excuse me, I remember when Donna Kelsey was on it. That made the buddha. That made the buddha. Just honestly, like why? That made no sense. Right. Well, right. But also like I noticed that they edited her like out of the challenge basically like they showed her at the beginning, they showed her at the end. It's just too physical. And I was actually really impressed like Dorinda is older than me and she can run. Like I was actually impressed by even Jam Jam, who's like pretty heavy and he was able to do it. I'm thinking like, I can't run unless I'm being chased. Like even then it's like a block. Like I have a really bad knee. And I just am impressed by like how well these people are doing. Like what great show. Like I wonder if they actually fit. Do they, I mean, you know the behind the scenes. Do they train like they train for a marathon? Well, some people do. Some people do. Do you take that seriously? Like especially with the challenge, they'll do it. They'll get like trainers and they're doing crazy workouts. Other people are like, whatever. I mean, if you're not inclined to go and do a workout just to begin with, you're probably not going to do that in preparation. But I do think it would be funny if it's like bloopers at the end when at the reunion time and they show that like Dorinda got a golf cart ride. Like that kind of went down the hill and up the hill. I love it. Oh my God, they should show bloopers. That would be so great. That would be so great. Yeah. So I'm loving Candice, although I just have a feeling that she's got that. I feel like Rob's going to take her down. I just think he knows what he's doing. And the fact that she named him last week, I think was the dagger, so to speak, in her heart. Well, yeah, because it's like out of pattern. I think that the housewives, God bless, God bless, they get a little too high on the fumes. Like Lisa overplayed it a lot in the breakfast. Totally. Like, oh my God. I was like, take it down a couple notches me. It's true. But Kate, somebody did say though that like that, even if she was a faithful, she probably would have done that. And like she's so that's so Rena, you know, like just to be over the top period. She's just she does too much as the kids say she does too much. She does too much. But I think Candice is doing too much now. Yeah, like just like I'm still like that was out of nowhere. See, that's what I don't understand with this show that really makes me want to be a fly in the wall in production because I'm sorry. The conga line is a massive red was a massive red flag and not in character for Candice. It came out of nowhere. You're telling me in a game where people are literally watching every word, every movement, every little room that that someone didn't say, why would she have brought like I hope that on the next round table if she's in the crosshairs, somebody brings up because Colton seems to have a really good memory about how everyone so if it's anyone's going to do it, he would clock that she brought up the conga line because to me, the conga line was should have been her nail in the coffin. I was like amazed that it wasn't. Yeah, but it was funny as hell. Yes, but you're absolutely correct. And it's kind of interesting too, because I think there's this mindset that the housewives stick together. But if anybody had actually watched Real Housewives, they know they do not look at a reunion. They don't. But that's what's so annoying about it. Like I hope that trope changes are like the gamers to just like it just it's annoying. I mean, I I love this show. Like I will say this is the one because Thursday night is like such an embarrassment of riches because there's a pit, which I love. There's Beverly Hills, there's Shaz or whatever you call it, the Persian Shaz and then traders. And I'm going to pick the traders first every time. Like I cannot wait. I don't know if you get them early, but like I cannot wait for that show to drop. I just I eat it up. It's like candy. That's how I feel. Here's my question for you. Ron has said in interviews or alluded to a lot that went down with Durinda. And he said it was like things that she said between meals. Now, the weird thing is Trishelle said they are filming everything all the time. But then he's saying there's stuff that was happened that they do not want or just allude to them. The production not wanting to include it. What could it have been? I mean, he hates Durindo. What could have happened? So let's employ your encyclopedic memory. Remember when she goes to, I believe, Haiti with Bethany and she gets really drunk and she starts saying like really awful embarrassing things at that dinner. Like basically that like Bethany is not really helping these kids. And like, do you remember she like slags on the charity and it was so awful. And I remember drinking and I don't think she can drink here. No, I get that. But what I'm saying is Durinda can say really shitty things. Like she can be a real asshole. And I have a feeling that she just, I mean, I'm not saying it was like anything racist or anything like that. But I think she can be really rude. And I think Ron has come out and said that he was diagnosed with autism. And maybe she said something that says something like, you know, alluding to that in a way that was criticizing him and not understanding. I mean, I just look, Durinda's great TV. I think, you know, that's undisputed, but she can be really mean, like very mean, very cutting in a way that is she doesn't have a lot of remorse the next day either. Remember how she was to tinsley for like an entire two seasons for basically no reason. Yeah, you're absolutely correct. Those are the kind of people that I kind of waved to from the other side of the street, but I never want to be in the orbit because yeah, even if they're nice to you for a little bit of a period of time, they can be charming. They will come and they will stop you in the back or got you. They will. Yeah, or in front of your back. Now, Eric has revealed that the banquet was even more chaotic behind the scenes than what was aired with producers toning down some of it. What could it have been? I don't know, but I was a little disappointed because Alan had said like it's the craziest thing that I was like, I kept waiting to be like, you know, are they going to start stabbing each other? Like what is going to be this crazy moment? And like them taking Jam Jam away and him screaming, right? I mean, it was a good it was totally a good moment, but it wasn't like the greatest moment of all time. Like the greatest moment of all time is Sandoval doing the singing of the doll. I'm sorry. There will never be a better moment on television than I mean, I can't do it justice, but that is the best moment of traders in the history of the world. So as far as this episode, like, you know, the outfits were great. They were total drama. I didn't think it was little like drop earrings because it reminded me of like these earrings my sister used to wear when she was in high school. I like that you're focused on the earrings when he had a full pearl crown and a full pearl, you know, draping chest covering. I mean, he looked insane, but like God bless it was, he went out, he went for it. Yeah, I didn't think the banquet was like all that exciting. I don't know. I mean, it was good. It was a good scene, but I don't I didn't think I'm trying to picture like you what happened with something else happened. I mean, definitely there. Well, there was drama with Natalie and the potion like she definitely went a little unhinged. That was crazy. I would say like what is this drink? Right. It looks like shots that we saw in college called Red Death, which I now found out is like cranberry juice and peach knobs. Like it just looked disgusting. Oh my God, totally. Yeah. No, I mean, a lot of the things they do are disgusting on the show. Like I don't do bugs. So anytime there's a bug challenge, it was like, it would never happen. Like I would remember Sierra and Rob last year with like they're falling all over her and she's just standing there. I mean, she was scared, but like there's no world. I would be so out, so out. Yeah. Anything with like bats or wings, I'm gone. Or and man. And if I see Manny is across the room, I will. I hate Manny's too. I can't look at it. I just can't. Did you have it a lot growing up? No, because even as a child, if I looked at it, it was like dry heaving. I was like, got it noted. We'll put that out. That's funny because we had it on everything and then I got to college and I was like a flip switch and I was like, I will never eat mayonnaise again a day in my life. I know because I was like, I had so much made. We had everything I made is on it growing up. That was like the 80s. The main A's era. One time we went to Dan's cousin's house for some holiday and I didn't eat anything. We got in the car. He's like, why do you think I said that was a Manny's buffet? It was like potato salad, tuna salad, like every kind of salad with mayo. I was not well. Now will you eat eggs? Sometimes. Yeah. It's a texture thing. Got it. Yeah. But remember, I went to boarding school where I was forced to eat whatever was put in front of us. So now I just want to live a life where I get to eat what I want to eat. It was kind of like carrying in prison. Yes, yes, yes. Did you watch that interview? I did. Okay. I didn't. So just like I've seen the notes. I just, I felt like it wasn't going to be a fruitless journey for me. Like I was going to, I felt like I was going to like punch a wall or someone's throat. So what, what's the net? No, I don't know. Listen, first of all, I have to say, I don't think she's ever looked better. I don't know if anyone's talking about that. You know what I did see Clips? Yes. She did look great. Fantastic. She needed like an extra 10 pounds on her. Her face, like she looked, I was like, I don't remember Karen ever looking this good. She looked healthy and beautiful. You know, look, I think she was pretty contrite. Obviously she took, you know, full responsibility. Like she's basically like, I could have killed someone. And then when people say, you know, you should maybe not, you know, that you shouldn't come back to the show for what you did. She's like, I, that might be right. I may not deserve it. Like I think that she fell on the sword. She talked about her alcoholism. She talked about her drug addiction. She talked about it 20 years ago, Ray bringing it up and that she got some help them, but it didn't stick. And so she's been abusing alcohol and pills for how long? Like probably for the good part of 20 years. Wow. Okay. Yeah. And then like they showed a clip from the last reunion where Ashley talks about like a bartender at legal seafood saying that she would come in every day and get drunk. You remember that place? Yeah. Oh yeah. And she was like, yeah, I did do that. Like she was, she was look for Karen who bobs and weaves around the truth, you know, historically all the time. You know, I'm not saying she was a hundred percent truthful about everything, but I felt like she, I felt like she grew. I really do. I liked it. You know, I mean, it was, it was, it was sad. It was sad. It's sad that, you know, her kids are so cute and sweet and support her. And it's just sad that like they all had like that she put herself in that position to get to that point, you know, it just, just made me like, I hope it is true. I mean, she's going to meetings. So I really hope it is a new page for her. I'm hopeful. I think everyone deserves a second chance. Thank God she didn't kill herself or anyone else. I do think people deserve a second chance with the caveat that they look like they're actually working on themselves. You deserve it. Yeah. Well, and also like she's not a psychopath. Like psychopaths don't get second chances in my book because they're never going to change. She can change. She has an addiction, you know, and if she can, she can nip it in the bud and truly, you know, at the very least not drive drunk again, then like, you know, God bless America. I say you keep her on the show if you allow, if she's willing to really highlight that very real story that, you know, sobriety is really hard and kind of what it looks like for somebody inside their life. Can you imagine being sober on one of those shows? Like I'm not a big drinker, but there's no way I'm going on that show and staying sober. I know a lot of them say they feel like they have to drink because, you know, heightened emotions in these dinner party scenes. Remember, Liam McSweeney broke like 10 years of sobriety. I know. It's awful. Okay. For traitors, how do you think that the show sustains paranoia after episode after episode without exhausting the viewer? Hmm. Hmm. I think there, I think, I don't know. For me and again, I'm just a huge fan of the show. Like I, the challenges, you know, I'm on my phone. I'm sort of catching the gist of the challenges, but every time they're in conversation, whether it's in the rooms, in the car, obviously, you know, culminating in the round table. I am hanging on every word. Wait a minute. Yeah. Yeah. Like I, I, I'm, I'm here for it. I think what's, what's interesting about this season though is that if Candice goes next week and then they vote Colton out, you're going to start to lose your characters. And, you know, Tara's adorable, but boring. Johnny's funny, but like he's not a star. He's a good character, but he's not a star. I feel like Johnny's downplaying his personality. Totally. And by the way, when he speaks, he's hilarious. Yeah. So I really like him. He could, he could come out and shine and like, I would love for him to win the whole thing. I think Rob's going to win the whole thing. You know that he's like the godfather of Tara's child. Like that's hilarious. I know. I think it's, I did not know that, but I knew they were super close and I think it's the best that they went on. Like, Oh yeah. Hey, who are you? And I love Tara because I love how she's like, I don't know how to play this game and I don't know how to get better at it. That would be me. Yeah. Maybe like, I don't understand anything that's happening. And I think Natalie's a strong one, but like you need to keep those. That's why I like, I wasn't unhappy to see Rappaport go, but like he was a good villain. Like he was good for the show and you need those characters. You just do. Like last season after Rob Boston Rob went home, it wasn't the same. Yeah. It really wasn't. Well, what do you think makes a good trader casting choice versus a good faithful? I mean, I think the ruthlessness like again, watching season two recently, like Phaedra was such a good trader. She, first of all, I mean, the way she thought of lines off the top of her head, I'm doing too, I'm doing too much because you're doing too little. I mean, yeah, how is that? It's a gift. Like who comes up with that on the fly? And so she was an incredible trader because she had a poker face. She was friend. Like she knew how to draw people in with her winning personality and then stab them right in the back without any care in the world. I mean, it seemed like she's in love with CT. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Well done too. Yeah. So I think in a way like you just can't be that nice and be a trader. I just don't think that works. Do you think reality stars play differently than like the meaning like the housewives are different than the gamers? Like the because I don't really think of them as like reality stars. I kind of feel like they're like normal people that did this fun game and then they left and went back to their life. I mean, if you're putting broad strokes on it, I think the gamers are probably smarter strategically and they understand the game really well. The housewives understand alliances and friendships and how to win over friends and influence people. Like they're more sort of emotionally smart and the gamers are more like they know how to actually play the game. Like I think, you know, like Shirei in season two, I don't think until the very end she understood what she was doing. I don't think she still has no idea how to play the game. And again, no shade. I don't understand the game either mostly. So like to me, you know, I do sometimes but like I would be lost most of the time. But like the really good, I feel like most of the time the gamers are always two steps ahead. Truly. And then you get the outliers like you get Colton and you get pilot Pete who are like bachelors, but they're very good at the game. I mean, Colton is actually the irony about Colton. He's not very good at the game. But because he's playing it, you know, he's been wrong so many times, but because he's so aggressive, it is like an interesting strategy. And it was it was Rapaport strategy too, which it just it makes for good drama and good television because you don't know. It's very unpredictable. Well, I know he's brought it up 17 times, but he did play football for 17 years. Oh, maybe he's using some of that skill set, if you will. Yeah, but I definitely feel like this is probably the most authentic version of who he is having watched him on The Bachelor. And now, you know what else is weird? He wrote a book and I remember I reached out to his publicist to do an interview and she said, Oh, he's available for any interviews. That is very strange. Why the hell do you write a book? I don't think he was ready to talk about it. Yeah, I mean, that's crazy. It was at the same time and all his press came out. Yeah, he probably realized, oh, I have to go underground now. So don't you think this is like this is probably who he really is? Yeah, I mean, look, I think that he's a really problematic guy. Like I'm not going to underplay it. I think the stuff I listened to the Bravo docket on about and so they get into like, I didn't know the details. So I highly recommend people listen to it. If you want to know the details, they're not pretty. He's he was a very disturbed guy and you know, people be like, Oh, well, he was in the closet and he was struggling like, I'm sorry, it's not an excuse. It's not an excuse. You don't go to that level of depravity that he did because you don't want to come out of the closet. There's something in you that's that's off. It's just off. Well, if you were a producer, how would you design situations to increase mistrust? Because we're now we're seven episodes in into eight and the big personalities have left. So how do you keep up the momentum? I have no idea. I've never I've only produced one game show, one pilot of a game show once in my life. So I don't even know like how I would produce the show. And again, that's why I'd be so curious to see how it's how the sausage is made because I am really fascinated by it. So I don't know what I would do, but I do think that like the murder in plain sight is always super fun and and you're always on the edge of your seat. And like more of that, I do like the idea of the secret trader. I think this was the first season they did it, right? Yes, I like it. I actually I heard mixed, you know, feedback on it. I thought, I mean, I don't think she was Donna was the wrong secret trader, but I think if you do it right, that's actually a great twist because it is fun. It is fun for us also not to know. So I do like that. Like I think if you I think what I didn't like in season two was bringing in Kate Chastain so late in the game and I didn't like her as a trader. So I don't mind the idea of bringing in, you know, of them recruiting a trader later. But I think that like I like I like that idea actually I think that's how you could create more mistrust because like if Rob Rodden Colton or Natalie. Or Mara. I think that could get really, really interesting because they're all acting like faithfuls together. So like really their game wouldn't change that much. Like I think Rob even said that like I'm playing the game like a faithful. He did. He's just really good at it. I mean, he's he's to me he's making the season. Do you think so? Yeah, I think that Rob Lisa combination was pretty funny. Like the generational difference, the gender difference, the personality difference. I like kind of like a yin and a yang. Yeah, I get that. And I do think that they need to do some sort of escape room challenges because I think it would be a little bit more equitable, especially if you put in the caveat. One of you is going to be sabotaging everybody else while you're doing the escape room. So then they're like paranoid like, wait, you just said to do this. Are you just trying to sabotage me or do you really want us to win this? Yeah, no, they have had challenges like that that are less physical where it is more equitable. And I agree this season seems to be really, really physical. Yeah. Okay, let's talk about Southern charm, which you've got. We've watched this, you know, for quite some time. And I again wanted to ask you through the producer lens. I mean, does it does it seem less interesting that we have a lot of the OGs still on the show? I mean, it's been like a decade and they have like moved on and done other things. Listen, as long as Thomas Ravenel is on the show, I hate that mother effort. I really, I mean, yeah, I mean, look, but that's the charm of Southern charm is the three knuckleheads. Never check all the my knuckleheads. Sorry, I know your friends was shot, but he's a knucklehead. I mean, he's a smart, you know, he's smart. I'm not saying he's not. He's obviously a smart guy, but they're just knuckleheads. Like they're, they're never going to grow up. They're Peter parents. They're never going to grow up. And so, you know, and, and Craig is truly the gift that keeps on giving like Craig is unhinged this season in a way that like we haven't seen since that season when he like melted down at the airport. And everyone's like, okay. So I think obviously substances do not agree with him. He is terrible when he's not in a relationship. And, you know, the real love story at the core has always been Austin and Craig and it's really fun to see their crazy toxic relationship blow up and come back together all the time. It really is like I've never seen anything like it on any other show. Have we? Probably in like real housewives in some capacity, but with two men. Oh, not with two men. You're right. So I don't know if it was like an eight year senior or I would say in addition, I think that the real story is that Austin is gaining his power. He was it's almost like Craig's like an eighth year senior in the fraternity and Austin senior now. And he was like, yes, fuck this guy. Like he's made my life hell. And you know what? I don't wait. Why is he still here? Shouldn't he have left like a long time ago and you can see him building alliances with all the other cast members like Craig sort of did away with his sort of did away with Sally. Like you're not useful. I don't need you. And then Austin like swallowed her up. And I think that those moving parts are kind of interesting. I can't figure out why. Why does everybody hate Aubrey, the girlfriend? Why Audrey? Oh, this lose or Audrey, Audrey, Audrey. Wait, I don't think they hate her. Yeah. Madison was like, God, Rodrigo's engagement party. Like, why is she here? It's like, oh, I didn't take it that way. I took it as like Austin's been yapping around how he's done. He doesn't want to marry her. And it's like, I think they're more annoyed at Austin for not cutting her loose because he said he was going to break up with her. And he just keeps her around. Like I think it was more that they felt badly for her because it was kind of pathetic that he's checked out of the relationship and she's still hanging around. That's how I took it. No, I don't think Madison likes her. Well, I think Madison's jealous. I don't think that Madison wants to be with Austin. I think that she it's kind of like a mother like who's like, like who's super protective over her son. Like I just want you. I want you only to want me. I don't want you to anyone else. Oh, you're so I don't want to be with you because I got this hot husband. I don't need you, but I don't want you to be with anybody else. I genuinely think she does it. I adore me. I get it. Yeah. I genuinely think that she needs her bestie to be just at her feet all the time. Yeah, like in the church. Yeah, like Austin's sister loves Audrey and I trust Austin's sister. So I know Audrey's a good girl. That's a good point. I do like the scenes with his parents. Somebody told me they had it. They thought the father was dead sexy and I couldn't get enough of that. I thought that was pretty funny. I mean, he's not not. Why are we meeting Craig's family? Why don't we go back to Delaware? Like why? I do remember I only remember meeting them once one time. And that was when chefs spilled the beans. That was when that's probably why he was like, I mean, you guys cannot keep my parents ever again. But that's interesting. Like why are you keeping us? And he's got a cute brother just got married. Yes. That's who we want. We want his his the new sister on the brother, bring the brother and the sister along and get them loose loose lips at like one of these parties. Yeah. Craig's a hot mess. Like he is really is a whirling dervish. Like he's just he's a tornado. He calls that his projection calling Sally a tornado. I mean, she might be, but he is the tornado. Well, you don't really see him in big groups. Like you don't get the sense like a bunch of them all hang out with Craig together. Like he's more like a like a one on one person. Yeah. I just know like over the years, how many people that have hated him like that always says a lot to me because a lot of time we don't see it on camera. What's actually happening because we're like, what's the problem? Like he seems fine. But the fact that there's all of it, like remember that season where Leva and him just were going like locked horns against each other. And I'm like, okay, what did he do to Leva? Like why does Leva hate because I feel like she has a good BS detector. So like, yeah, why does Leva hate him so much? There must be something there. And now Venita hates him. And it's like unusual to take the side of someone not on your show versus like, especially if she knows where her bread's butter and like Craig has power on the show. And she still is like, yeah, I hate Craig. So and now Sally hates Craig. Like I think he's just a really divisive person. Probably. We, you know, always think of like, I feel like the cast dynamics are probably similar of summer house where Kyle is like, remember, I started the show. Like, I'm an OG. I set the tone. This is what you need to do to be part of the show. Again, like an eighth year senior at the fraternity house where you're like, we got it, but there's like a new guard coming in that kind of ownership stuff. I think like trickles through. Yes. I think there's a major difference between Kyle and Craig. I think that like as annoying as Kyle can be as obnoxious he can be as terrible as has been to Amanda, everyone's still pretty much like Kyle, like including the viewers. Yeah, you're right. You know, like there's just, he's a good person. He's extremely flawed, but he's a good guy and he's, and he's winning. Craig is not. He has a great smile, but he doesn't. People don't feel the same way like that they do about Kyle. So in other words, Kyle has some feelings about how the show should operate because he feels like I'm old guard. I started this whole thing. He's a producer. And kind of respect me in the game that I bring. However, he's probably happy for people. Makes them feel joyful to some degree when they're around versus Craig who may make people feel like less than or cornered or whatever it may be. Totally. I think we've seen historically from Kyle a great degree of compassion. Like when they had the whole race thing that came up that summer, he was like right in there. Like I tell me how I need to be better, you know, with with Carl and his addiction, you know, just there for him in a way that a friend is there for someone struggling. And Craig is just not that guy. Like we have never seen that from him. Yeah. Like would he drive over to someone's house and say, Hey, listen, I feel like I flipped out last week and my bad and just tell me what's going on in your life and let me figure out a way to help and like let's become better friends in the process. No, we haven't seen it. Like this house. Yeah. But credit where credit is due. He did save Anita from the pool last season. And that was that was really cute and sweet. So I got to give it to Craig for that. I did enjoy that. Does he listen to your pod? Now I feel bad. I hope so. Cause we're giving him some good notes. I just don't understand why we're I would like more Vanita. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I feel like we're getting enough. I don't know. I mean, the whole JT thing was so weird last season. Like it creeped me out. That like made me a little suspect of Vanita to be honest. I was just like, Vanita like genuinely likes JT. Like that makes me wonder about Vanita. Where is that guy? I think he's like. Didn't he go off the grid to like Bali or something? Who goes there to live there? The best scene ever with JT was when he got on the bar to fight with Austin. Cause he's so tiny. Well, he was always a little suspect cause he was like a little bit too into his relationship with this mom. I felt like his mom was like, dude, leave me alone. Like I got a majeong with my friends. Like I got other plans. When your mom doesn't want to hang out with you, you know, it's a problem. They work together. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I liked his mom. She was cute. Like, can you imagine interior design company and flipping company with like a son that's on a reality show? He was so weird. It's not good. He was a really odd bird. If you were casting the next season of Southern charm based on what we've seen thus far, who do you keep? Who do you swap out for to refresh the energy? Or are you happy with what's going on right now? You keep Molly. Love Molly. Love Molly. It is so unique. Like, you know, if you look at this at the history of Southern charm and kind of like, unfortunately, Charlie is sort of the mold of the like insert blonde girl here. You know, Molly is blonde, but she is so off the beaten path. I absolutely adore her every time they do a scene in her house. I crawl under the covers and cannot look at the hoarding situation because it makes me mental. And she's just fantastic. And I absolutely adore her. So keep her. You obviously keep the knuckleheads. Can't get rid of them. You keep Madison because you have to keep Madison. And I think get rid of Charlie easily. I don't think she adds. I mean, she seems like a nice girl, but she's not adding anything to the show. And I think she's scared of the drama. So that's not helping. I cannot stand Sally, but I do think she's probably good for the show. So I would keep her around because obviously something's going down with Austin. So I can't wait to see like where that goes. Venita, I think you keep. I think Rodrigo's funny. Oh, I like to use him more is my notes. Use Rod more. He's funny. He's an Austin are legitimately best friends IRL. So he is underutilized. I like that he's pointed out, listen, Shep's really cheap. And that's just the way it is. I want to lose a little insights. I think are very valuable. Yeah. And it's like, we all know that it's always the really, really rich ones that are the cheapest efforts in the planet. Yeah. I mean, and Shep. Yeah. I mean, Shep is a great reality TV character and he's a really interesting person. So I don't think you mess with the cast that much. I don't love like a constant rotation of new people and maybe I just don't like change, but I like seeing like with Potomac. Sorry to get off course for a second. Like everyone's like, oh my God, Angel such a flop. Angel such a flop. Yes, Angel is a flop. But that to me makes her interesting. And I really want to see a second season with her because I want to see if she'll continue to not know how to be a housewife. Or if she'll watch herself and get a cook and get like it'll be interesting to see if she can go anywhere in a second season. So like I just think give people a chance. I don't think Charlie has it in her. And I think that probably makes her a good normal person in real life. So stay a good normal person and get off the show. Sally, I think would sell her firstborn to do anything for the show. So keep her and let's just continue to see her, you know, blaze of path of destruction. It's interesting when I did interview Charlie, she said, Craig never talked about Paige. Oh, really? Yeah. So that it just seems like in the moment interviews, he's still longing for the relationship with her. And I think at one point he said, if she wanted to, I'd get back together. But then, you know, I've like hot tubbing with him and I'll like never brought her up, never talked about her. Interesting. I feel like till this day, like if she called him, he would be back together with her in a hot second. Do you think he's going to be like 50 raking leaves in the backyard of his home and he's going to be like looking her picture up? No, I think he will. He might still be looking her up, but I think he will. He is the only one of the three of them that will get married and have kids. Like I just think it's like the light has to be on, you know, like from Sex and the City, like the cab light has to be on, you know, like he, it has to be like, like Charlie is like definitely the right direction for him. She's kind of like Paige with blonde hair, but she doesn't have enough edge. Okay. He needs to be abused and Naomi and Paige abused him. And so Charlie's too nice. So he needs to find someone to whip him, but also be like super hot. And then that that's going to be his wife. Right. Okay. Well, good. Last question. Amanda Francis, are you down? Oh, my God. I mean, it's, I'm so torn because it's like we really obviously need her because there's no show right now without her. But boy is she a hard pill to swallow. She is my Kate. I mean, you know me well enough. She is my worst nightmare. Like I cannot stand people like, oh, well, I bought the house. I was made. I don't like the way that she's like so mean with her about about her husband. Like let's be clear. I bought the house. It's like, what's his name? Eddie. She's basically like Eddie's a loser compared to me. It's like, why, why are you doing that to him? Do you remember her from selling sense? I sure do. And she's never been fully committed to arm sleeves. Never. I don't know why I need to revisit that. That's very interesting. But she was like so like pick me. You know, I, you know, she's selling the property, but she's got to be in the scene. I mean, I could clock that along, along way away. Yeah. No, she exactly. She's so thirsty. I, I hate gobbledygook BS. Me too. Yeah. I mean, you're the queen. Like just, yeah. Like I love them bows was just like, I'm sorry. What can you just tell her if PK has a 401k or not? Like her manifesting her best self of showing up, but like shut up. So I hate all of that. She's a total grifter. I mean, you know, we can spot Queen of the cons a mile away. I was following her for a while because I was interested. I know she our next season is your question. I mean, she might be. I, I, so that's why we should keep her on because we're, we're absolutely heading in that direction. I think people have been like, I can't wait for the crime, to crime documentary about her. Like she will be housewife in the hustler. So they know what they're doing over there at 32 flavors and keep up the good work. Also, I do think that at some point she's going to dig her own hole. I mean, she's like presenting is like, I'm super confident I'm running this business. I make so much money. But at some point, like the cracks are going to show. And that's going to be when it gets really fun. Yeah. I mean, I think she's very invested in presenting this facade of who she is. And it's like, it takes a lot for a woman who's told the most upsetting, depressing story that you could ever hear, which is losing a child like five days after birth and everyone, including the ladies, still hating her. Like, you know, like if anything's going to bring you over to this woman's side, it's such a gut wrenching story like that. And not that we all didn't feel it obviously for her. You can't not feel that. But yet like she's still awful. So that was like her moment to redeem herself, to show her humanity. And for us to really feel like, oh, there's other dimensions to her. And it just like, it still didn't happen. Speaking of dimensions, you know what would make me really happy is if at some point in the season, maybe at the end of it is that the other women unknowingly have to attend one of her seminars. I'm dead. That would be great. But I want it to be like in a park in like Palm Springs or something where they have nowhere to go. But they sit on like blankets and she's like, I want you to talk about manifesting and where you are with your crystals and all of that. And I just need them all to be stuck. But like, can you manifest money? Because if you can, I want to do it. I know, right? I know. Like you just have to really want it. I think it's very much like the prosperity sermons, you know, if you believe you will succeed. I don't know. I mean, it's just a bunch of BS. Totally. Unbelievable. Oh, tell everybody what you're working on right now. Is there a next season of Queen of the Con? Like what's going on? Not right now. TBD. I hope. I love that show. Jonathan, though, I will plug him. He has a lot of stuff going on with it. He's doing, you heard his new one. He's doing a handyman in Texas that's basically like a like a like a prostitute for hire, but as a handyman. Yeah, it's great. I'm maybe, I can't remember what it's called, the housewife and the handyman. Yeah, maybe it's a really good title. Sorry. I didn't come prepared to plug Jonathan, but you guys should check that out. So I have two shows that are coming out in the next four months, which I can't announce either yet, but you're going to love them both. And if you follow me on Instagram at a Y R underscore media, Aliza Rosen, that's where I post everything about any projects I have. And we just wrapped a really incredible season of the real killer season three. If you have not listened to that yet, I cannot recommend it enough. It is gripping. So that's all I got today. By the way, my handyman one time sex, by accident. No. How do you know it was by accident? Oh, it was graphic. It was like, Kate, this is insane. Talking about like a mini rabbit. I actually took a screenshot of it. I will, I will show you. Don't, please don't, please don't send it to me. No. I just wanted you to come fix my closet. Like what's happening here? Your closet. He was more defied. Wait, Kate, that is the crate. Do you still use him? No, no, no. He was like, you know what he reminded me of Terrio Queen who played Locke and lost. He looked like him. I'm dead. Oh my God. That is the funniest story ever. And then I did. Like, I think he realized that it was like not the right Kate and he was like, Eek or maybe it was a Casey. I don't know what, I don't know what happened, but I was like, wow, I didn't know he added in on it. It's the funniest thing ever. I can't, that's just made my day. I told Dan, I was like, the handyman just sent me a sex. He's like, what? And of course, Dan was like, oh, OK, anyway. I'm like, no, I need to unpack this for like a couple of days. Like what's happening here? Whatever. Anyway, so hilarious. I'll call Jonathan and get him on it. Thank you so much. So good to see you. The Amazing Kate Casey. I'm on Instagram at AKKCCA, TikTok it's KKC, and Twitter, Threads and Blue Sky at AKKC. Check back tomorrow for an all new episode. Ready to launch your business? Get started with the commerce platform made for entrepreneurs. Shopify is specially designed to help you start, run, and grow your business with easy customizable themes that let you build your brand, marketing tools that get your products out there, integrated shipping solutions that actually save you time from startups to scale ups online, in person, and on the go. Shopify is made for entrepreneurs like you. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at Shopify.com slash setup.