This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour, I'm David Remnick. Until 2020, Barry Weiss was known only to that small tribe of people who were obsessed with Inside Baseball in the media. But then Weiss, who was in her mid-30s, caused a stir when she bolted the opinion section of The New York Times in anger. She claimed that she was chased out of the paper by a woke culture at the Times, staffers who had relentlessly attacked her. In an open letter, she described herself as having been bullied for her, quote, forays into wrong think, an echo of George Orwell. And like Tucker Carlson, Weiss soon found backers for a new platform online, The Free Press. And then just a few years later, Paramount Skydance purchased The Free Press and the owner's moved Weiss over to run CBS News. And now, we all know Barry Weiss's name. Donald Trump called the New Regime at CBS News, quote, the greatest thing that's happened in a long time, to a free and open and good press. In this week's New Yorker Claire Malone, who covers the media, journalism, and politics, has published a piece called Inside Barry Weiss's Hostel Takeover of CBS News. Claire, I spoke on the show recently with our colleague Jason Zangaly about Tucker Carlson, and he's written a book about him of really terrific biography. Now Carlson is an enemy of what he considers liberal bias in media, of course, but he's very far to the right of Barry Weiss, if we're being fair. And he lambed-based at Barry Weiss in an interview with Theo Vaughn in December. Let's listen to that. A lot of our overlords like Barry Weiss are actually totally mediocre. And the most depressing thing about the United States in 2025 is that we're led not just by bad people, but by unimpressive, dumb, totally non-creative people. Barry Weiss has no experience in journalism at all. Like, she's never committed. She's like an opinion writer or whatever for The New York Times. I mean, she's not a journalist. Like, never written a freaking story in her life. She's very wise. Or she's calling me names, or calling her names, or whatever. It's like in no fair system and no meritocracy would Barry Weiss rise up of secretary. Like actually, and I mean that. I've been in this business, my whole- I've been in this business and Barry Weiss was breastfeeding, okay? There's no world in which Barry Weiss rises to the top of a news network except a rigged world. That's it. Should we count the sexist in- I don't know if they're breastfeeding. Breastfeeding secretary. What is with this guy and what's going on here? There are a lot of debates about what Barry Weiss's own political leanings are, but they're very different from Tucker Carlson's. I think Barry Weiss is Jewish and very openly Zionist has written a book, How to Fight Anti-Semitism. So I think that they disagree on some things. I also think there is this war happening in conservative media a little bit. Tucker's also flirting with further right elements. Barry I think is trying to court the middle. This is the line I think she would say, which is people are politically homeless. They don't see themselves in CNN or MS now or the New York Times. They see themselves nowhere. Or the New York or the New York or the New York or the New York or the New York or the New York or her vision for CBS would be, we're going to catch them all. We're going to catch all those people on the center right in the center left who think Tucker is crazy and flirting with Nazis. And we're going to bring them in and there's an interesting thing. He has tapped into a criticism of Weiss that she is unqualified to run CBS news because she's never worked in a traditional news side of a newsroom. She came up on the opinion side of the Wall Street Journal and at the New York Times. And then I think she would argue that her, her substack, the free press has had reported investigations that while sort of maybe more ideologically slanted that there's been reporting and she's been an editor for a long time. But you've now spent months thinking about reporting on Barry Weiss for a long piece in the New Yorker. It's been published this week. Who is Barry Weiss? What's she all about? She's from a particular neighborhood in Pittsburgh called Squirrel Hill. It's, it has a large Jewish population and you know, Barry Weiss comes for a family where she's spent a lot of time in Israel. She feels a deep connection and she comes to Columbia after doing a gap here in Israel. She goes to a screening of a documentary that has been made by a Boston based activist group called the David Project. And it's called Columbia Unbecoming and it basically is a brief documentary that's interviewing students, Jewish students at Columbia who feel that professors in basically the Middle Eastern Studies Department have intimidated them because of their views that are supportive of Israel. And you know, there are some, some back and students basically testifying about their experiences with the professors. And Barry is very sort of moved to action by this documentary. She comes up at the end of the meeting and says to the guy organizing things, how can I help out? And she starts writing op-eds and becomes pretty quickly, particularly if you sort of know or become familiar with Barry Weiss. She's sort of this energetic force of nature. She's soon writing op-eds. And I think probably because this controversy with the Middle East Studies Department because it's New York City, because it was a hot topic, it really got picked up by mainstream media, the New York Times, the New York Sun, we're covering it. And I think through that, Barry just really gets connected to not just kind of media appearances, but a wider networking world. She's a really good networker. She sends the email. She walks up to people at the party. She sends the follow-up note. That's kind of her. And she is sort of good in a room, as they say, right? Right. So she got to the Wall Street Journal where she worked on the opinion side of the paper. And she knew people like Brett Stevens and all kinds of people. And eventually she's hired at the New York Times to work on the opinion section under James Bennett. What happened? She and Brett Stevens start after Trump is elected. So they start in 2017. And she's editing and assigning things. But pretty soon she starts to write op-eds. I think the piece are often responding to Twitter discourse and therefore got picked up on Twitter. And they sort of whipped into a frenzy. And you know, whenever her pieces would go online, sort of traffic jumps at the New York Times opinion page. And sort of from inside the tent, I think often was her posture challenging what progressives are saying. Eventually sort of this would... But progressives particularly identity politics, she seemed to have a real beef about her. She would have... I would say her defining ideology probably during this period coalesced into anti-woke. Right? That there was too much cancellation, too much group think. She sort of eventually would take her issues with the New York Times and what she saw as its, you know, overly woke group think. She would take it to Twitter itself. I'm speaking with the New Yorkers Claire Malone about Barry Weiss and CBS News more in a moment. Snails? Snails? On Radio Lab? We're gonna do snails. They're gonna do each other and we're just gonna watch. Oh dear. The wild sex life of those sluggy little creatures. You look at snails and you think like... I don't think anything I haven't ever thought. Okay fine, you don't even think about snails. She's sperm storage organs, arts. Love darts. A little dagger? Love darts. A whole circus of sexual extravagance. No way, that's cute. Snail sex tape from Radio Lab. Get it wherever you get podcasts. Barry Weiss resigned. And as she resigned she published a letter online and it was an angry letter. Describe it a little bit and how now it plays an important role in her developing the free press and now it's at CBS News. I mean it's a letter that's both emotional. It talks about her colleagues bullying her and that she would say that that environment really affected her. But she's also really making this argument that the times is essentially degrading itself by giving into the liberal political leanings of its staff. That it is sort of, you know, it's mediocre to sort of succumb to all of that. The resignation becomes almost the turning point in her career. And first there's a substack and then there's the free press. At a certain point, she becomes in a way the favorite of a lot of very wealthy people in Silicon Valley and elsewhere who find her relatable in their in their own politics and their own resentments. Yeah. Let's let her talk about the free press here. If you ask me like what is the core free press persona, I would say it's a disaffected liberal in a hyper-woven environment. But it's also a lot of other people and this is both the bluntly like the cha the huge opportunity and challenge. I could tell you like you know there's there's a lot of never-trum publications out there that are thriving and successful and I'm a reader of many of them. They have a very very particular niche audience. It's much wider than that. So it's like we're both read by people in the Trump administration and we're read by people that were pilloried or cast out or despise the Trump administration. We are read by people in Manhattan and Los Angeles. We are also read by farmers in Iowa and homeschooling moms in Texas. Like it's a very much like here comes everybody's like it's not a niche audience. Is this a statement of principle or a business plan? Both. You could almost summarize it as the free press is going to talk about frankly a lot of cultural issues and it is going to speak to a broader audience that's not just you know your old white guys right. Her editorial posture as sort of being open to a lot of points of views. The kind of in a genuine way I think this sort of like well we're asking questions you know like let's let's talk about what is now the maha movement. Let's let's talk about covid skepticism. Let's also talk about the reality of the free press. I read it and you say as much in your piece. It's more than just a little Trump curious. You know someone had a really great phrase when talking to me about it in the Biden era when the free press I think really kind of have the juice and it had a lot of sort of you know anti-pods say of America Democrats is what this person said right and I think what's interesting about a contrarian publication like the free press is that during the Biden era it was sort of it could be it could punch against Biden it could punch against against woke is and then during the campaign and now during the Trump administration it has gotten quite Trump friendly very very there's a sub stack writer who did his own analysis of their you know coverage of the 2024 campaign and just overwhelmingly skewed Trump sympathetic pieces I also think Gaza really really affected the free press itself you this is the the issue that she has both held closest to her for a long time is real but if heterodoxy is if you give me for directing but heterodoxy is her by word it was the coverage of the war in the Middle East heterodox in any way I didn't see that yeah and I think her response would be basically the correct view about Israel is not being represented in the mainstream news and we're here to tell the truth about it I think the free press became a very openly you know I would say based not just pro-were's real but antagonistic to the US media's coverage of Israel so fast forward she becomes part of the deal essentially for the in the paramount deal and she's suddenly the head of CBS news which is this storied institution of the American press but it has been an awfully bumpy beginning it has why I mean Barry Wyses a person who certainly started a startup that eventually had a number of employees I believe about 60 or so employees now she is running a news of very traditional broadcast television network with something like 1300 employees so from a from the sheer scale of it with a boss that is in the midst of a quite complicated hostile takeover bid to try to like consolidate all of media so I would say that the atmosphere and suck up to the president United States by the way that's the crucial point yeah the elephants yes and people are suspicious of her when she comes in some people I think are open to that new voice CBS has been in third place for years it's a place with really bad morale and 60 minutes is great as it is years ago and the New Yorker reported on this really bad sexual harassment problem and a toxic culture overly political culture so I think some people are open to what what Wyses has to say other people are quite cautious of her who have followed her you know her very public resignation from the times who would note that she has never you know been in a traditional news room that she's come up on the opinion side I do think that for a lot of these journalists at CBS who are very traditional journalists that that bothers them. There's also an ideological agenda that seems in play here I don't think that's being unfair I do not show itself kind of week after week yes you know when she first started she gave this talk where she basically said that she wanted to to move the 40 hour line of acceptable debate then that CBS was going to be the home to that such an original idea. I don't I mean no David it is not I would say that the evening news with Tony to couple has become probably the most concrete example we can see of what she sort of thinks about changing CBS so Barry Wyses very involved with this the actual like writing and editing of scripts for CBS evening news with booking guests you know she's she's calling in her favors right Trump himself did a interview with Tony to the couple although we can talk about how how that went but I think you know some of the choices in those interviews of when to push back on Trump officials Pete Hegseth was interviewed by Tony to couple he was criticized for basically not pushing harder with Hegseth throughout the interview but particularly on these points of weight was this a are we invading a foreign country or is it as you the Trump administration would say support for law enforcement action that with a straight face listen broadcast interviewing is obviously different from print interviewing but I think you would talk to a lot of people in broadcast to say that that was not a rigorous interview and I think that there are other choices the market review moment on January 6th you know David mirror at ABC news which is mostly the ratings leader in their broadcast spent like two or so minutes on it had a group you know covered approach cover to protest it was a full some coverage you know in the middle of the episode to people only briefly acknowledged it genuinely a few seconds and then the show closed with Marco Rubio Florida man memes now a I mean have added to that portfolio casting secretary Rubio as the new governor of Minnesota the new Shah of Iran the prime minister of Greenland the new manager of Manchester United the head of so I think they're different editorial choices being made at CBS and perhaps some of that is sensibility a desire for the news to you know speak to people in a more casual intimate way the idea that a lot of people get their news not from the television anymore but from YouTube I think I would say that that is the the generous interpretation and I think that the very vocal criticism is well this is you know softening an administration that is taking really really radical radical actions including against journalists I mean we're talking you know not soon after the FBI searched a journalist's home I mean it just a genuinely I found it shocking now Barry wise did not want to talk to you on the record but you talk to a lot of people at CBS if one would walk into that building what's the mood there. I think that people broadly understand that the network has to modernize adapt change. I think even Barry Wises supporters and maybe even Barry Wises herself would say that she's made some mistakes from people who you know are critical open you know hostile to her or openly critical of her they'd point to they'd say you know listen I don't know if I want to be at this kind of news organization this isn't the kind of place I want to work at and this isn't something that I find familiar so this idea that yes we might need change but you throw the baby out with the bathwater right the and the baby being should you know regular Schmeggler traditional reporting journalism right it's gotten to the point where the host of the Golden Globes in her you know comic opening which was on CBS which was on CBS took time to insult CBS news under Barry Wises let's hear that for a second and the award for most editing goes to CBS news yes CBS news America's newest place to see us news now does Barry Wises take that on the chin or does she say sure Hollywood you know liberal Hollywood doesn't like me that's exactly what I'm talking about you know I'm sure it bothers her how could it not right but I'd also think that there'd probably her hackles would be raised where she'd say like well how how many people are she watching this where is this story going I think if you sort of talk to people new Barry Wises they'd say well she's like she likes a big project right and this is certainly a big big project I think I think we'll probably see in different forms right experimentation with form at CBS she hosted a town hall with Erica Kirk which was I think a disappointment but but okay I mean it has to change because the old formulas boring as can be yeah I'd be curious to see you know she hired as her head of talent acquisition a woman who ran talent acquisition for sub-stack you know so are we going to be seeing different kinds of correspondence more sort of you know opinionated correspondence openly opinionated in that way that I think is more native to like the kids watching their stuff on YouTube maybe I think the other thing that I have a real question about is you know Trump is entering his lame duck period soon ish you know even with all the kind of you know openness to the administration that I think you know Wises CBS has signaled you still get this interview that that Trump did with Tony DeCouple the other night and you know Trump really you know kind of in his way you're richly humiliated to Coupon and said you know you wouldn't have a job if I had won the election I mean he just says that I think it's sort of this sharp reminder that Trump knows he can always change the rules on you right that he can always pull the rug out from under you and so I think that those unstable atmosphere conditions with Trump while you're trying to run this kind of Trump potentially sympathetic news organization I mean that's a really uncertain task and so it sort of begs the question what principles are you guided by and you know I think you know we can take Wice at her word that she wants a broader spectrum of opinions but you know you also have to think about but it's point of view not opinions the last time I look the evening news is not an opinion magazine yeah not a liberal not a conservative not a central and they're really playing with that form this evening news very often it opens very soft often with the weather stories and so on and the notion that it was somehow a liberal opinion magazine brought to television now it's going to be a centrist one with that's brought you know a big tent up edge page yeah well it's interesting not irrelevant comparisons it's interesting because de coupel in his sort of promos for the show said we've listened too much to experts to elite us and not enough to you on too many stories the press has missed the story because we've taken into account the perspective of advocates and not the average american or we put too much weight in the analysis of academics or elites and not enough on you and I know this because at certain points I have been you I have felt this way too and so it's this you know anti woke anti-elita sentiment that I think you know she sort of grafting on to the the very traditional format of the evening news and and how is that going to go you know because at the end of the day yes you want to get younger audiences but your broadcast audience even though TV is a sort of dying sector your broadcast audience is very traditional I don't know they might not love it right and you you can also risk alienating um you know the people who brought you to the party yeah well bury wise be the head of CBS news to years from now I'm wise enough to know that I shouldn't make predictions about that she seems to have the the year and trust of David Ellison and I think it's also important to remember that CBS news is but a spec in the broader media holdings of the Ellison yeah they did they didn't buy this property to get CBS news that was that that's what came along with it no they did not yeah no they did not and so sure I think it's very possible that she'll still be running CBS news in two years Claremalone thanks so much thanks David the New Yorkers Claremalone you can find her reporting on Barry Weiss and much more at New Yorker.com you can also subscribe to the New Yorker there as well New Yorker.com I'm David Remnick and this is the New Yorker Radio Hour see you next time The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbys of Tune Arts with additional music by Louis Mitchell this episode was produced by Max Bolton Adam Howard David Krasnell Mike Kutschman Jeffrey Masters Louis Mitchell Jared Paul and Ursula Summer with guidance from Emily Boateen and assistance from Michael May David Gabel Alex Barish Victor Guan and Alejandra Decca the New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Trevina Endowment Fund The Oscars are coming right up and this week on Critics at Large we're going deep on a very specific part of the pageantry the host we're looking at the biggest hosting hits and misses across the years and asking what makes a great host I mean for me it'll always be Billy Crystal remember when he came on as Hannibal Lecter the sounds of the laughs I'm Alex Schwartz join me and my co-hosts for new episodes of Critics at Large every Thursday
