24: The Delphi Murders: Did They Get the Wrong Guy?

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And one of the most shocking things about this case is how long it took for an arrest to even happen. Despite massive searches and despite intense public attention, I mean, it took five years before anybody was arrested. Five years. I mean, that is a lot of time for rumors to spread, for people to start questioning the investigation, and also for some extremely sketchy characters to just like crawl out of the woodwork. Now, the last time that we covered this case, it was back in 2023 when a suspect was finally arrested. But since then, this case has literally exploded. There has not only been a huge trial, but a huge country or, you know, world divided. Because yes, many people believe that justice has finally been served for Abby and Libby, but others are convinced that the police, they got the wrong guy. And in the meantime, there's also been leaked photos, crazy jail calls, recorded confessions, rumors about cults, alleged setups. I mean, it has been absolute chaos. Also, when I was out on my live tour last fall, one of the most highly requested cases that I reopen and re-examine is this case, the Delphi murders. Just because I think how controversial it is and how so many people do believe that they got it all wrong, that Richard Allen isn't the guy, that it's somebody else entirely. So today, we are reopening this case and we are breaking down everything, the suspect, the confessions, the trial, also the evidence on both sides of the argument. This case is incredibly complex and incredibly controversial. So my goal today isn't to tell you to believe one thing over the other, but rather it's to break down all of the facts and really walk you through the arguments on both sides and determine what you think is true. As always, I encourage you to please do your own research, form your own opinions, come to your own conclusions, and please keep it civil in the comment section over on YouTube as well. The ultimate goal is always to honor Abby and Libby by telling their story. And I think we can all agree that that can't accurately and successfully happen when other people are just like attacking one another. So please keep it respectful even though I know that there are a lot of very passionate opinions out there. Also as a quick reminder, in these reopened episodes we revisit the original deep dive and then we drop in every new update along the way. I also will jump on and give some hindsight as to previous things that I've stated or shared or if my opinions have changed. So you may hear some differences in the audio just due to the equipment changing over time, but so you know. Also, in one of my very first episodes when I ever cover this case, I completely mispronounced Delphi, Indiana, and I called it Delphi, Indiana, so you might hear that a little bit too. It is Delphi, so bear with me. Bear with past Annie on that. Give her a little bit of grace. She doesn't always get the city names right. That was very, very early on. Like, that was even before 2023. I think that that was like, I don't even, it was forever ago. So anyway, with that said, we have a lot to get into today, so get ready because this is a really complicated one. I'm Annie Elise. This is 10 to Life, and today we are reopening the Delphi murders. Let's jump right in. Abby Williams and Libby German were two best friends living in Delphi, Indiana. Abby was 14 years old and Libby was 13 years old. And Abby was apparently an absolute animal lover. I am talking she loved everything outdoors. She loved all sorts of animals and just was, you know, one with nature. She lived with her mom full-time and loved spending time with her grandparents as well. And Libby, Libby was described as just the sweetest and kindest little girl. She lived with her grandparents and with her sister Kelsey, who she was extremely close with. And she was just a pretty happy-go-lucky little girl. So the two of them were best friends, and they went to middle school together and really just had all of the same common interests. They were excited about the upcoming softball season. They were excited about playing the saxophone, which it's like, how hard is it to find somebody else who loves playing the saxophone at a young age like that? They loved photography, painting, really just everything. Any hobbies that one of them had, the other loved equally as much. So the two of them spent so much time together, and they really were truly just the best of friends. Now Delphi, Indiana. Let's talk a little bit about that location. Delphi is a very small town in Indiana. It's less than three square miles in size and has less than 3,000 residents, according to a census that was done back in 2019. So a very, very tight knit community. And that's where they loved. That's where they grew up and everybody was friendly with each other and it was just, you know, reportedly a great town to be a part of. But on February 12th, 2017, everything would just start to unravel and rock these two little girls' world and their families' lives. So on February 12th, the two little girls decided to have a sleepover at Libby's grandparents' house. The next day was actually going to be a school holiday from unused snow days, so they wanted to hang out, have a sleepover, and then spend the entire next day together. So they ended up spending that evening with Libby's older sister, Kelsey. They hung out with Kelsey, ate pizza, stayed up, and just had, you know, a typical girl's sleepover night. You're watching movies, you're talking about boys, you're, you know, messaging people, you're eating pizza, just like an innocent, happy sleepover. But they had absolutely no idea what the next day would bring. The next morning, they woke up and they enjoyed pancakes for breakfast, and they then just started their day. They helped Libby's grandma Becky actually with filing, some of her filing work, because they wanted to make a little extra money, possibly go shopping later that day. So they did this, they helped with the filing, but then they decided that they wanted to head out and go enjoy the day outside. And they wanted to go to Monin High Bridge Trail. And this trail was essentially like the spot for teenagers to hang out at. We all had one. Everybody had one in high school and even in middle school. And here, everyone always wanted to hang out there and it was really well known. It was an old abandoned railway bridge and it had trails all along it and it was just the spot that people would go to. So Abby and Libby asked Grandma Becky if they could go and Grandma Becky told them that they could go but only if they could find rides to and from the trail. She did not want them walking on their own. So Libby asked her sister Kelsey if she would take them and Kelsey initially had said no. She had afternoon plans with her boyfriend later that day, but then she ended up having a little bit of guilt for not spending a ton of time with Libby, so she says, you know, I'll take you guys and I'll drop you off if you can find a ride home. So then Libby decided to call her dad Derek, who happened to actually be taking photos of Grandma Becky later that day, and she asked him if he could pick them up. Her father Derek said that once he was done with Grandma Becky, he would pick them up and that it would be approximately, you know, two hours in total. So now Libby and Abby had their rides. They were gonna head out to the trail and have a fun day out away from school. School was closed and they were just going to enjoy the outside. So they all piled into Kelsey's car around 1 30 p.m and Kelsey drove them to the trail. On the way, Kelsey had received a phone call from her boyfriend while she was on her way to drop the girls off. So she takes the call around 1 38 p.m and then she was still on the phone with her boyfriend around 1 40 p.m when she dropped the girls off at the entrance to this trail. So she made sure that both girls had their jackets and Kelsey and Libby told each other that I love you because their family always made sure to voice their love for one another and she stayed watching the girls enter the trail before then driving off. At 2.05 p.m., Libby posted a photo on her Snapchat story of the bridge and then she posted another photo at 2.07 p.m., just two minutes later, of Abby walking on the bridge. And at some point, Libby began taking a video on her cell phone through her camera roll app, you know, the video app. And in the beginning of the video, they were talking about, you know, typical teenage stuff, just girl stuff. But then in the video, you can actually see a man walking with blue jeans and a jacket on, and he's walking along the bridge. But the angle of the video almost makes it seem like Libby took this video of the man behind her. Then you hear the guy say, guys down the hill. Today's episode is sponsored by Tovala. Okay, so I know I've talked about this before, but you know how when dinner just feels like it's like one more thing on your to-do list when you're already tired and exhausted? Well, that is what I love about Tovala. Tovala is a smart meal delivery service with fresh meals and a smart oven that does the cooking for you. You literally scan the meal's QR code, pop it in the oven, and it steams, bakes, broils, everything automatically. There's no guesswork, no checking, no, you know, is it done yet? And the meals are chef-crafted and made with real fresh ingredients. They actually taste like something that you would cook yourself just without the mental headache that comes with it. 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Now, since our last update, the entire video that Libby took has been released, and it really does give us more insight into the girls' last moments. See, this is the path that we're done. Um, there's no path going there, so we have to go down here. Guys. Hi. So, who was this man? It seems as though she was purposely videoing him. Was this something that she was doing for her own safety to like video him to make sure he was on film? Was she doing it out of fear? Why was she filming this man? And more importantly, who was he and why was he telling them to go down the hill? And this was the last time that the girls were ever seen alive. At 3 11 p.m., about an hour and a half since they were dropped off at the trail, Libby's dad, Derek, called Libby's phone to let her know that he was getting close and he was going to be there to pick her up. But there was no answer on her phone. So he pulled into the parking lot at 3 14 p.m. and then he called her. Again, there was still no answer and the girls were also not at the meetup spot that they had originally agreed upon. So obviously her dad Derek is very concerned because what teenage girl is not answering her phone or her text messages, especially this day and age when teens are literally always on the phone. And we know that she was very active on her phone, on Snapchat, posting photos, taking videos, all of these things. So Libby wasn't the type of girl to just blow off family phone calls or texts either. So Derek decided he was going to walk these trails and see if he could find the girls because something felt wrong here. Derek passed a man who was in a flannel on the trails and asked him if he had seen the two girls. The guy said that he did not, but that he did see a couple up there. Now this area was an intersection of the trail where the 505 and 501 trail meet. So when this man in the flannel shirt, whose name has never officially been released, said that he didn't see the girls, Derek decided to take one of those paths, the 505 trail, thinking that maybe they must have gotten on that one instead. But when he couldn't find them on that trail, he became much more concerned and knew that something was not right. He called Becky, Libby's grandmother, and asked her if she could try to get a hold of Libby. And Grandma Becky was actually with Libby's Aunt Tara at the time. So they began calling Libby, trying to get in touch with her, texting her, but they had no luck. They were completely unsuccessful. So then Derek, as he's continuing to search these trails, decides that he's going to check the Freedom Bridge Trail. And this was part of the area. But the girls weren't there either. And this was frightening. He was extremely nervous. And this is when the family started freaking out. Nobody was answering their phone calls. Nobody was answering their text messages. He couldn't find them anywhere. It's beginning to start to get dark. This is a problem and they are panicking at this point. Where were these two young girls? Something had to be seriously wrong for them not to answer their phones and not to show up at the meeting spot. So grandma Becky calls Libby's grandpa Mike who left work to come and see if he could help and grandma Becky also called Libby's sister Kelsey to let her know that they needed help searching for these girls. So Kelsey immediately leaves her boyfriend's house who she had plans with that afternoon. She called into work and she went to help search. Everyone made their way over to these trails to go and search for these girls. Kelsey and her uncle Cody were paired together and they were searching the southeast end of the bridge. They were actually near a private property and spent about 20 to 30 minutes yelling the girl's name, just trying to search for them anywhere they could be. Kelsey also called Libby's phone thinking that if Libby was there, she would hear the phone since it was relatively quiet outside. And Grandma Becky spent her time calling AT&T to see if they could ping Libby's phone to see if there was a known location. But of course, cell phone companies get very, very finicky about this kind of stuff. And, you know, legally they're not able to give you the ping until they have a formal request from the police, so this was unsuccessful. Grandma Becky even tried downloading certain apps like Find My Phone, things like that, but she realized that it wouldn't have worked because Libby didn't have those apps installed on her phone. So now hours have gone by, guys, and at 5.20 p.m., literally over two hours later, the family decides it's time to call the police and report the girls as missing. By 6 p.m., news had gotten around that small town and people were obviously freaking out. It was a very small town and how could these two girls just mysteriously vanish in such a small town where everyone seemingly knew everyone? And the big positive about living in such a small town was definitely the sense of community because everybody rallied together and started volunteering and searching for these girls, trying to crowdsource information, trying to hit the trails, trying to do anything they could to figure out what had happened. Police were paying so much attention to this investigation. They were not letting a minute slip by. They had Libby's grandpa Mike go back to his house and get every single electronic device from that house so that they could search it. They were also beginning to process that formal request for AT&T to ping the cell phones. So not only were volunteers and police on the ground searching, they had also pulled out drones, there were firefighters, there were even trained water personnel out there searching. But by midnight, it became way too dangerous to continue the search, given how dark it was and given how woodsy the area is. So law enforcement called off the official physical search of the girls with plans to resume the search the following day. And at this point, they had said that they did not suspect any sort of foul play because at that point, they really didn't have much to go off of. But still, this is so scary. You're now closing out the day. You're calling off the search. There's two young teens out there missing. Even if there isn't any sort of foul play to be suspected, you know something is wrong. And then to just, as a family member, try to go through the night or sleep that night, which you're obviously not sleeping, but knowing that nobody's out there searching, that has to be just extremely devastating. The police continued working on pinging the phones, but at some point the phone had died, meaning that there were not going to be any sort of updated pings done or in the area or anywhere for that matter. And even though that official search was called off, it didn't stop the family, the volunteers, or the firefighters, and they all stayed and searched throughout the night. And that is again just a huge testament to the sense of community in this town. That morning the search was called back on and more and more volunteers were showing up and helping with the search efforts. They were being split up into search groups and then they had a meeting at a command center that was set up to where everybody would go and then get distributed and then come back and report back information. Well, at around 12 15 p.m., footsteps led searchers to a horrible discovery and it was the discovery of the bodies of Abby and Libby. A volunteer searcher had found a shoe of Libby's and when he looked up, there were actually two deer in the grass. As he got closer, he saw the two girls laying in between the trees in the woods. The girls were found on a private property near the high bridge and they were about 50 feet from the shore of Deer Creek which wasn't far from where Abby and Libby had actually initially been dropped off but it was also somewhere that they would not have wandered off and gone on their own. By 2 p.m law enforcement had a press conference stating that they did in fact find two bodies but they did not confirm that it was Abby and Libby, and from there, the FBI immediately got involved. Autopsies began on February 15th in Indiana, and a positive identification was made on both girls, and then the search was officially over. From there, this now turned into a double homicide investigation. On February 22nd, a press conference was held about the murders, and law enforcement pleaded with the public to come forward with any information that they had. They assured the public that the investigation was just getting started so that they needed to be patient and that they would absolutely not give up and they would find whoever was responsible for these two deaths. They also released the audio clip to the public during this press conference. In July of 2017, they ended up releasing a sketch of who they believed to be the suspect. Tips continued to come in, but no real leads were generated. For over a year and a half after that sketch was released, investigators combed through thousands of tips, but nothing generated. And on April 22nd, 2019, over a year and a half later, in a press conference, investigators replaced the original sketch. And this was a brand new sketch. But who was this person in this brand new sketch who looked entirely different from the person in the first sketch? It caused a lot of controversy, and people were, of course, very, very upset by this. And they were very confused, wondering how something like this could have happened. How the first sketch could look so much like one person, and now it's being replaced with this new sketch who looks like somebody completely different. Had they been looking for the wrong person this entire time? Then, after years of essentially no new information, the case seemed to ramp up again after a new person of interest entered the public eye. 29-year-old Keegan Klein was an internet catfish that would use various fake accounts to chat with underaged girls. It was also discovered that he was actually chatting with Libby the day of the murders and had even told another girl that he was supposed to meet up with Libby that very day. Keegan was later arrested and charged with possessing child material and given 43 years in prison, but since then he has been ruled out as a suspect in the murders of Abby and Libby. Many people believed that the fact that an online predator just happened to be the last person to speak with Libby before the murders was too coincidental. Some thought that even if Keegan didn't commit the crimes himself, that he was somehow connected to the real killer. And some people thought that the real killer was right under the police's noses the entire time. It turns out that Abby and Libby's bodies were found on property belonging to a man named Ron Logan. And Ron's history, it was not exactly squeaky clean. On March 8th, 2017, law enforcement interviewed an ex-girlfriend of Ron's. The two of them hadn't spoken in two years prior to this interview that law enforcement had with her and this woman had actually told law enforcement in this interview that she had left Ron because he became physically abusive She alleged that he had actually gone so far as to drag her out of the car by her hair She said that once she left Ron, he stalked her and he harassed her. And Ron's alibi for where he was at the time of the murders, it turned out to be really sketchy. On February 14th, the day that the girls were found, Ron called his cousin and asked him to tell the police that he had picked up Ron around 2 to 2.30 in the afternoon on the 13th, which was the day of the murders, more specifically the afternoon of the murders. And he asked his cousin to say that he had picked him up to take him to an aquarium store in Lafayette and that then they returned to the house around 5 or 5 30 that night. Now, what was Ron doing that he needed his cousin to lie for him and provide him with an alibi? When law enforcement searched Ron's phone, they found that at 2.09 p.m., just two minutes after Libby posted the photo of Abby walking, Ron's phone made a call. They could not confirm his exact location, but the phone appeared to be in or around his property and around High Bridge, where the girls went missing. He then sent a text at 7.56 p.m. the night of the murder. The analysis of the phone showed that he was likely outside of his actual house and in the area where the girls' bodies were found. He also received a text that night at 10.16 p.m., that same night of the murder, and yet again, the analysis of the phone showed that he was likely outside of his actual house and in the area where the girls were found on his property. Perhaps this is when he was moving the bodies or was finishing staging them, but as compelling as that evidence was, Ron was never arrested or even named as a suspect, and that's because in 2022, Ron actually died from COVID. So as other suspects came to light after his death, many people started to believe that Ron had nothing to do with the girls at all. But other people aren't so sure, with some even claiming that Ron actually confessed to the murders. But now that Ron has passed away, we may never know the full truth about whether he had any involvement. But honestly, I have to say, regardless of who committed the murders, it is pretty insane how many gross men these two innocent girls crossed paths with in like a single day. I mean, there was a known child predator actively trying to set up a meeting with Libby on the day of the murders. And then both girls are found on a property belonging to a man with a history of domestic violence who was also lying about his alibi. So even if neither Keegan nor Ron was the girl's killer, it's crazy that these poor girls were even near them on the day of their murder. It's just such a scary reminder of how many dangerous people are truly out there hiding in plain sight. But with Keegan apparently ruled out, and Ron dead, the investigators were basically back to square one. And there was intense pressure from the public to finally find Abby and Libby's real killer. And then finally, on October 26, 2022, more than five years after the murders, there was finally a huge break in the case. Police announced the arrest of a new suspect, a man named Richard Allen, a 50-year-old CVS worker from Delphi. And as it turns out, the name Richard Allen, it wasn't new to the police either. Richard actually gave a voluntary statement to investigators just a couple of days after the murders. He admitted to being on the bridge that day, but he said that he was just there to walk around. Can you help us understand what was going on on Monday, February the 13th? Can you kind of tell us what you were doing that day? And every day the girls, okay, they're on the trail. Okay. I went over to my mom's in Peru, Mexico, earlier in the day. I think my mom had hip surgery back then or something, but regardless, my wife is working for a new year, but today, not today, I spent the morning with them. my sister would come over and they were going to go eat lunch and stuff and I wasn't about that so I went home and I remember it was a fairly warm day or warmer than normal so I think I just put a jacket on and went back out to the trails usually we had a When we go, we walk down the high bridge and walk back and walk down the other side and come back. I mean, it wasn't a ritual, but I remember walking down to the bridge. At the time, I left a monger probably around 11, 11, 15. So I think I would have been out there because I didn't do anything else. It would have been around noon, I thought, as one of those out there. Walked down the high bridge. Always went out just a little ways. Went out a little ways and watched the fish. See if I've seen any fish down there because I like fishing. and walk back and sit on the, when you turn around and go down the other port, there's a bench that overlooks and sit there for a few minutes and walk down the, walk back out and left. I think I was there probably around noon. It could have been a little before noon or a little afternoon, walked down by an hour, so probably 1, 1.30, 1.45, depending on exactly what time it was that I got there that day. I just remember walking down the trail, and I told him that when I was approaching the trail, the trail head, I guess is what I'd call it, there was three girls walking off the trail, and I just remember it looking like one of them was probably watching, not babysitting, but watching the other two because they looked a little younger. And they looked very similar. I don't know if they were hitters or whatever, but the other one didn't necessarily. But I remember seeing them walking off the trailhead, and I didn't really see anybody. I walked down. Like I said, I looked at the water. I walked back and I said, I mean, somebody better walk behind me, I guess, but I said on that bench that overhooks the creek bed and all that. But the evidence started stacking up against Richard pretty quickly. For starters, the clothes that Richard admitted he was wearing that day, they just so happened to match exactly what the man in Libby's bridge video was wearing. There were also surveillance photos of a black 2016 Ford Focus that had been parked outside the trails that day, the day of the murders. And it turns out that in all of Delphi in 2017, there was only one Black 2016 Ford Focus, and it was registered to Richard Allen. There's a lot here that we need to get clarified, okay? As you well know, we have pictures of an individual who was on the bridge, and to some great degree, you describe that individual as wearing yourself is wearing a blue jeans, a jacket of the same color as that. They described a hat, hard to use, but they're 10 brown. Okay. And this is a picture that was taken with the phone of one of the girls. Okay. I understand that. And the question needs to be, is that you? If it was taken with the girl's phone, that is absolutely not me. it's not me but I never met these girls before so even if I thought it looked like me I think if it was taken with the girls phone there's probably could be I've never met them I've never seen them this this image this person right here he's wearing like a car hard jacket just like you just told us okay he's wearing the same clothing that you just told us we we just need to know what happen. Why? Sure. I mean, I said I was wearing blue jeans. Now, I think blue jeans is a pretty common thing that people wear. And I said I was probably wearing a black or a blue coat. It could have been a card card, a zip-up with a hoodie in it. I've had black ones. I've had a blue one. Or a blue one and a black one. I guess, you know, the same thing where I told you I was wearing and saying that that's me in it. So, the other kind of... in your service you literally want me to like that is a you want me to say that's my car we looked at it it matches everything that's not that is your car okay well i'm saying that picture it's like okay i yeah no that that there's zero doubt what's actually i don't even okay that's fine showing you what we have and why we need to eliminate you and then there was a witness who saw someone matching richard's description walking along the side of the road on the day of the murders. They saw this person covered in mud and blood. They have people that saw you. Okay. You said you were out on the bridge yourself. There aren't that many people that saw me. I mean, I'm sure I didn't miss that many people. They walked behind me, I guess. You said that you were out on the bridge, this bridge, yourself, that day around the time when this happened. No, I didn't. You said you walked out onto the bridge. When we talked to you earlier, you said that you walked out to about the first platform or within that area of that bridge. That's what she told us. So we know that you were on the bridge. Oh, yes, I was. And with that, we can say that, is this person you? That's the question. Is that person you? That's the question we have to answer. Sure. So if that person is you, we know this person followed the girls all the way to the other side of the bridge and then told them to go down the hill. The question is, is this you? No. Okay. So you're telling me that this person was out there on the bridge and wore the same clothing that you had that day. But you didn't see them. You can't tell that's a black Carhartt coat, a blue Carhartt coat, a pullover. I told you I could have been wearing this. The two kinds of clothing you said you wore that day was either a black Carhartt coat or a blue car coat. Okay, you said you had blue jeans. Right. Okay. And I've had a comparison. So put yourself in my chair. Yes, what I'm saying is I don't, I'm not going to tell you I wasn't wearing a black car that day. I told you I could have been. I don't know if that's a black car or not. And if it is, it's not mine, it's his. And you said you have a hat you normally wear, a skull cap. I said I carry one. So if I was wearing one, it would be like a skull. cap or a smaller bag of that or something. So this is the situation we're in. Basically this. Either you were out there to do this to the girls or you were out there to be able to introduce the girls to somebody else. Okay. Good luck finding anything that points in that direction. I mean, it's not me. You're not going to make me believe it's me. You're not going to find anything that ties me to those murders. So I'm not really that concerned. You know, you went from trying to, I don't know what you want to say, get my trust and then slowly lure me into telling you I killed somebody and I'm not going to do it. After the initial interrogation, police got a search warrant for Richard's house and car. And inside, they found a jacket matching the one seen in the bridge video, a huge collection of knives, and also over 20 different cell phones. Which, why the hell would anyone need that many cell phones, right? they also found a gun, specifically a Sig Sauer handgun. And this was a huge red flag because an unspent bullet was found at the crime scene between the two girls' bodies. And according to police, that bullet was a perfect match for Richard's gun. I want to talk about the results of your handgun, okay? So we took your gun, your recal Sig, and we sent it down to the lab to have it match with an item that we located on February the 14th when we found the Gurnace. Okay. And that item was a .40 caliber Winchester round. We found that at the scene. Okay. The extraction marks on that round match your gun. Okay. So, just hear me. I'm just trying to... I am. So, this is the round. Okay. those are the extraction works. That's the best picture of them. There's actually three of them. That's the other, that's the same around that we found. Okay. And like I said, the methodology that they use is scientific. And they were telling me, and this is the report. You can read it if you wish. I don't need to read it. Well, I'm just trying to help you. Let me tell you something. Eric. The prosecutor and the other investigators, they want to see you lock you up, throw away the key. I just think you're ridiculous. Listen, just listen to me for two minutes. Let me explain this to you. I'm on your side. I talked to you a little bit out there on the scene. I know you mentioned a couple of times, you don't want to be the fall guy for this. You also mentioned to me the other day when I was telling you, hey, I want to check the property out, make sure there's no damage and you said doesn't matter it's over. You made comments like that to me that really concerned me. Sure. Right. It's concerning. What I mean by it's over is that you've already started something here that there's no backing out of. So, the damage is done, I guess is what I'm saying. That's what I would have been referring to. Okay. And I agree with that. We have started this. We've been working on this for a long time and all the evidence is clearly indicating you're involved in this. Listen to me, Rick. I don't believe you should be the fall guy, but all the evidence, you say you're out there. We have witnesses out there. We have your vehicle. We have experts. We have experts that say that's you on the video and that's your voice on the video. Okay. Experts, not me. I'm not an expert. I got you. Okay. And now we have your round at the scene. Not on the bridge. You said you're on the bridge. I don't even know how my bullet would have gotten out there if that's my bullet. There's without a doubt that this is very scientific. So let me show you a picture of this round where it was found. That's the round right there. It hadn't been out there very long. That is Liberty's foot. It's within six inches of one of the dead girl's bodies. There's no way. I'm telling you there's not. How did that round get there, Rick? I don't know how the round got there. What I'm telling you is, if that is truly what you're saying it is, it's not my round. The scientific experts are saying, I got a report saying that that round came from your gun. Okay, but understand this. You were on the bridge. I told you I was on the bridge. Listen, right now, like I said, I got a prosecutor and investigators ready to lock you up. And if you don't give us a narrative, if you don't tell us your side of the story, there's two sides to every story. Hang on. I'm trying to help you. I get that. The media is going to portray you as a monster and you don't want your wife. And it's already going to get there anyway. So this is your chance to tell us exactly what happened. Like some people, most people, I care what people think about me. in. You've already set that ball rolling. Yeah, but there's only one way to get out in front of it, and that's to tell the truth. What happened that day? I can't tell you what happened that day. You can tell us. There's no doubt in my mind that the evidence clearly indicates that you're involved in this. Are you the mastermind behind this? I don't know. Mastermind. Okay. Did somebody else set this up? I don't know, Rick. I want to know, and only you know. The truth will set you free. That's it. The truth will protect you from the... Well, that's what I would have thought. Well, tell the truth. Tell me how this round got next to one of our girls, in between both girls. I don't know. You do know. And if you don't tell me, you're going down for this. Okay. The only person I think can explain all this is you, and you're not explaining it to me. I don't know what it is you want me to explain. What were you doing on the bridge? How did your round get there? And why did you kill these two girls? Why were you involved in this? What was your involvement? I had no involvement. I don't think you're the one that killed them. I don't think you're the one that stuck to knife him. Are you? Are you that guy? Really? Are you? No. I'm asking you. Anybody that knows me knows I could never, even if I wanted to, do something like that. That's not who I am. Then what happened? I can't tell you. How do you expect me to tell you? You want me to make up a story? No, the truth. The truth is simple. You don't have to make that up. You just go back and tell me the truth. You can't tell me that this event has not been weighing on you for years and years and years. You're out there. I've told you that. I don't know what you want me to do at this point. I did not murder two little... I don't think you realize the severity of this year. You realize the death penalty is on the table for this? You know what? I don't really care about living at this point. I've dealt with not wanting to live for seven, eight years now. It's been a long fucking battle. And with what you guys have done to me, kill me. I don't give a fuck. You'll make my wife rich. So is there a reason why you have this, this round in your little keepsake box? What kind of ammo did you have for your cig? I don't know. Blazer? I don't know. I'm telling you. At that time, you had Winchester. Okay. The round we found was Winchester. The ammo you had in your gun and for your gun at the time was Blazer. But this was a Winchester. It says right there, Winchester. Same exact type of round. We've been through this. I know. I'm just giving you an opportunity. Like I said, your wife's being a host. Please stop giving me an opportunity. She says ever since 2017, she's saying that you didn't want to go. You wouldn't let her go on the search party. She wanted to help. And she's saying that. I think I know my wife. Well, I'm just telling you. I'm going to bring her in. I'm going to send some stupid shit. You want me to bring her in and tell you? She's telling the truth about what happened? You didn't tell her, but you've lied to her for years. She's how she feels right now. Because your depression has gotten considerably worse since this incident. This has been going on for seven, eight years now. But it's gotten worse since this. Well, it's gotten really bad. I could see why. If I killed two girls, I would get... Oh, my God. I would have depression, too. I would have mental issues, too. I'm sure you would. Living with this. I'm sure you would. And that's the way you are. Here's what I think, Rick. I don't know. Only you know. But here's my theory. You're out there. maybe somebody set this up, maybe they didn't maybe you're out there, maybe we know you're out there, that's not a theory, that's a fact we know you had a gun, girls saw a gun in there we know you have anger issues, your wife told us before that you have some anger issues and you have depression and you have you know, those types of issues and maybe this girl said something to you, I don't know, maybe you said go down the hill, which we know the experts say you said go down the hill you get down there and they you know they piss you off for whatever reason you racked the gun you didn't realize you racked that gun to scare them and that round popped out you didn't realize it because maybe do you carry that gun with a round chamber or do you not have it chambered when I carry it I would have a round chamber so you don't have to carry it well you were carrying it that day because so if you have one chambered and what I'm saying is if I have a round chamber, which I do, and I wrap this gun right now, a fully intact round will pop out. Correct? I assume. Well, that's what's happened. You didn't realize it. Okay. And that's why that round's there. And this is your opportunity. And you say that, you don't want any of this and that. Can you please stop giving me opportunities? I'm not going to sit here and tell you I did something I didn't do. Okay, tell me what you did. I'm not going to tell you I'm involved with something that I was going to do on that day. I didn't help my other two little girls. What did you do? I went for a walk on the trail and I went home. We all can probably agree nothing hits like home cooking, and HelloFresh makes it easier to do more of it, even on busy weeks. With over 100 recipes to choose from each week, you can find meals that fit your lifestyle. 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Do you think I'm not? And that's what I told them. I can't explain something I don't understand. I tried to explain to them that there's no way that a bullet from my gun was at a murder scene. Because it didn't happen. I didn't even have my gun that day. I went out. You know me. you know this isn't something I could do. And I know that you know that. You don't have to tell me that. I know. They really think I did this. And they want me to believe that. I know you know I didn't do this. I guess that's what I'm saying. I don't know what they're trying to do here, but I'm not going to say something that's not true, and I can't explain something that I don't understand. The only way for me to explain it is that I don't know, because I'm saying it's not possible. There's no way that a bullet from my gun ended up in a murder scene. I didn't murder anybody. I didn't help somebody murder anybody. You know, I'm not even, I'm going to sit here and try to convince you. I know you know me. I know you know that I didn't do this. It had anything to do with it. Talk about scheming or something. Yeah. Hey, John. I don't know. Because they said it came from our gun. But how did it get there? I don't know. They said there was one in your box about your dresser. They showed me that picture too. I can't explain that. And I don't... I can't either. You can't ask me if I don't know how to answer that. You can't answer it. I understand. Me either. And that's what I'm trying to tell you. You want to keep asking me and I just keep telling you I can't explain it. I don't know how to explain something that isn't possible. but I know this is what I do know I know that no bullet from my gun was connected with a murder in any way shape or form and there's no way a bullet from my gun would have been near Abby and Libby's murder or or anything else because I never even seen those girls period and I didn't even have my gun that day so that's what I'm trying to say I don't know how to make that any clearer I don't know how to make that any clear I don't know how to make somebody understand I get what he's saying I don't have a way to explain it and they're like there's a witness that said it was you out there dear I don't know like how did they know it was you so they said they showed her thing but i'm like of course you were out there if they see me out there they see me out there dear and i told them on the bridge i told them i was on the bridge i went out to the first trestle oh okay that first thing that were you telling me that He told me So I told you You weren't on it But I didn't You're not in any trouble You didn't do anything I didn't do anything I didn't do anything I didn't do any word on it I'm sorry Well, don't worry about it You told me it worked No, I told you that I walked Okay I love you, baby. I don't know what they're trying to do, but I know that's not what I told you. I love you. I love you. At this point, both Richard and the detective were getting very frustrated, and things really started to boil over. Like, what do you do? There is no way that evidence is going to show that I did this. Right fucking here, Rick. You got one piece of evidence that I can't explain. Multiple. I'm not showing you my whole fucking hand here. I don't care. I'm showing you I'm done talking. Now you're going to drag your fucking wife and your daughter through this because you're too fucking bullheaded to get out in front of this and you made a mistake. And whatever the fuck happened out there, we'll never fucking know because you're too big of a fucking... Go ahead. So tell you I did something that I didn't do. The truth, Rick. I've told you the truth and you don't want to hear it. The evidence tells me otherwise. The evidence clearly indicates you're involved in this. No, it doesn't. It fucking does. It doesn't. I'm telling you that there is no way that a bullet from my gun was used in these murders. And I'm telling you that we had this fucking round on February 14, 2017 has been secured in a fucking laboratory and we've tested other guns that people that we I understand what you're saying I understand what you're saying what I'm telling you is I can't explain something I don't understand the scientists have explained it for you the lab analysis analysts have explained that for you they're saying that this round without a doubt came from your gun than you told me. You're taking it from somewhere else then. Because it's not possible. I did not take it from somewhere else. It was locked in. It was taking a photograph. You think we fucking took a swim. I threw it down and threw it down by a fucking dead girl's foot. The same fucking TV. You're involved in this. You're fucking around. Say it, Rick. No. You're getting pissed off. I understand. Did you not see my wife? Did you not see these fucking two girls dead? No. That's not going to happen. You got fucking pissed off at him. You fucking dragged him down a fucking hill and you fucking killed him. You're trying to tell me that I'm not making this fucking round shit up, Rick. It is what it is. I'm done talking. Arrest me. Happy to. Be fucking happy to because I tried to fucking help you and you wouldn't fucking do it. Despite maintaining his innocence, Richard was then indicted by a grand jury on the murder charges. With all the evidence against him, I mean, the bridge guy video, the car, the bullet, his lawyers really were scrambling to come up with a solid defense. And then in September of 2023, we got a look into their strategy, the defense strategy, and that was when they filed a 136-page document that basically laid out their theory of what they think happened to Abby and Libby. and they threw the blame in a completely different direction than anybody expected, because what they were claiming was that Abby and Libby were sacrificed by a cult. Rumors from an alleged witness at the scene stated that there were sticks arranged on the girls' bodies, which sparked the initial speculation of a cult's involvement from the very beginning, and the new documents state that there was actually evidence discovered at the crime scene that indicates cult involvement consisting of symbols resembling runes made out of sticks and constructed with tree branches. So the defense is arguing that these symbols were clear signatures left behind by individuals in a cult called Odinism. They accused both prosecutors and several law enforcement officers of concealing information regarding the Odinist ties to the murders. I think all of us assumed that this crime scene was horrific and knew that going into it, but I don't think anyone would have been able to imagine just how heinous it actually was based on the description. According to the document, Libby was found at the base of a tree with four branches intentionally placed in a very specific and arranged pattern on her body. Libby was positioned flat on her back, nude, with her left arm stretched above her head, touching the base of the tree. Libby's hands were covered in blood. Blood spots and blood drippings were seen all over Libby's body, from head to toe. Libby's right arm was placed along the side of her body. One large tree branch had been placed over her left shoulder. This branch was so long that it extended above Libby's head several feet and below her legs for several feet as well. Two smaller branches formed a V, where her legs joined her body near her pelvic region, with both sides of the V extending upward toward Libby's head. The last of the four branches extended across Libby's body in a line from her right shoulder to her left shoulder. This fourth tree branch also connected with the other three branches and was placed under both branches that formed the V. Libby's neck was partially covered by this fourth branch. There appeared to be no blood spraying or dripping onto the leaves or the tree near Libby's head or near her sliced neck, making it likely that Libby had been killed at a nearby tree and then dragged to her final resting place where she was staged. The murderers treated Abby very differently though. She was found just a few feet away from Libby, placed at an angle with her legs a few feet from Libby's legs. Now, unlike Libby, Abby was fully clothed. In fact, Abby was dressed in Libby's sweatshirt and jeans. No blood appeared on Abby's clothing either, meaning that she was likely murdered while naked and then dressed by the murderers after she died and after the blood had stopped coming out of her neck. Abby's hands and feet also had no blood on them. Other than the blood found around Abby's neck area where the murderers would have inflicted the fatal wound, very little, if any, blood was found anywhere else on Abby's body or clothing. The murderers appeared to have gone to great lengths to keep Abby's body and clothing clean from blood. Abby was found on her back, however her elbows were bent with her right and left arms both placed on her chest. Abby's left hand and arm near the left side of her face and her right hand and arm near the right side of her face. Also, her left leg was straight while her right leg was bent at the knee. The murderers also placed her bent right leg under her left leg. Then, like Libby, those involved in the murder had placed tree branches in a very specific pattern on top of Abby. The pattern looks very similar to an asterisk consisting of three tree branches, all joined in the middle. At least one of those tree branches appears to have been cleanly cut by some sort of instrument, such as a saw, rather than being split or broken by a hand or a leg or something like that, indicating that this was a preconceived plan. Then, above Abby's head, there were smaller sticks that had been placed over her hair, crudely mimicking horns or antlers. The amount of blood that would be perhaps expected at this kind of crime scene based upon the location of the injuries of both girls was not visible at all. In addition to the unusual way that the girls were posed, including the stick formations placed on their bodies, another unusual marking was found on a nearby tree. A symbol that looked similar to the letter F appeared approximately four feet above the base of the tree. The F was red in color, and later DNA testing showed that the F had been painted on that tree using Libby's blood as the so-called paint. Additional blood spatter was found at the base of that same tree. All of the blood at the base of the tree appears to have been Libby's blood as well. the stick configuration on Abby resembles the rune called Hegel. This rune is used to depict the word hail. Therefore, the combination of the Hegel rune found on Abby and the rune that was found on the tree, when combined, would proclaim hail Odin. The defense team speculates that because of the lack of blood visible in the crime scene photos, especially the lack of blood concerning Abby that the murderers may have saved the blood to be used in future rituals. But just as the defense was building their Odinism theory, a very serious wrench was like thrown into their plans by Richard himself. Because while in prison, Richard confessed to the murders. And I don't mean just once or in a fleeting moment or under pressure. He literally confessed over 60 times in person, in writing, even in recorded jail calls with his wife and mom. Are you there? Are you there? Yes, babe. Yeah, babe. What's going on? I just wanted to apologize to you. What's going on, sweetheart? I did it. No, I did it. What? I killed Abby. I killed Abby and Libby. No, you didn't. Yes, I did. No, you didn't, Darren. Yes, I did. Don't say that. I don't know why. No, you didn't. No, you didn't, dear. You're not feeling well. There's nothing wrong. They've messed up your meds or something there. No, I mean, I evidently did it. No, you didn't. Why would you say that? Because maybe I did. No, you didn't, dear. I think I did. No, you didn't. They are screwing with you there, and I'm trying to get to the bottom of it. There's something wrong. They are messing with you. They are messing with your mind. They have done something to your food, or they've done something to your neck. There's something wrong. Don't you ever say you did anything, because I know you didn't. I think I did. No, you didn't. Why would you say that? Because I think I did. No, you didn't. No, you didn't. I wish I could say I didn't. I don't know. You don't know. See, exactly. There's something wrong. They're screwing with you. Trying to get you to say things. They're trying to mess with your mind. You know, I'd be safe, I guess. There's something wrong. No, you don't. I just wish they would kill me or let me apologize to the families at least. Dear. Don't talk anymore. Just don't talk anymore. Okay? He didn't know that I did that. What? No. I'm good, dear. There's no way. There's no way, dear. Love me. There, there's no way. Okay. Please go love me. I always will go love you, honey, but no. You have not done anything. And I think you are not well. So you don't need to be saying you did something you didn't do. Well, hon, this is the first time I've been able to talk to you and I've been trying forever. Were you just not allowed to call me or? I don't know what's going on, hon. Okay. I'm definitely going to lose my mind now, though. I don't. Don't. Don't. I'm supposed to be meeting Brad here for some reason. I know. I know. I know. Then it's taken me... It feels like it's taking me forever. You have one minute remaining. Are you there? Yeah, I'm here. I'm just trying to be at peace with things. I had a dream that I needed to let you go, and I didn't know how to let you go. Well, then you're dreaming stuff again, okay? That's all it is. You don't be talking about anything. Okay? I have to let you know that I did it. Dear, no you didn't. There's no way. They messed you up so bad. It's okay, honey. I did it. I did it, dear. Stop. I cannot stop. I've got something here listening to me right now, dear. No. I did it. I'm sorry. I don't... I don't... No, you didn't, dear. I'm sorry. I killed Adam. No, you didn't. Stop. Stop saying that. I killed Adam. No, you didn't. Stop. Stop saying that. I just did it. I knew I was supposed to let you go. I was trying to let you go. I'm just worried that you guys aren't going to love me because of the fact that I said that I did it. Ricky, I just know you're not in a good place right now. And I'm praying for you. And we will always love you. No matter what. But just saying it doesn't mean you did it. Well, it does when I did. Rick, don't talk like this. I think they're just messing with you. No, Mom, they're not. I love you though What are you doing I love you too hon I just know you don have it in you to do something like that Mom. I wouldn't sit here and tell you I did it if I didn't. well, if they're messing with your meds and all that, yeah, you would. But according to the defense, Richard didn't make these confessions on his own free will. They say that Richard was coerced into making them after being held in solitary confinement, after being given psychiatric medications against his will, and also because he was threatened by prison staff. And according to Richard's lawyers, this was all because the staff was full of Odinist cult members, cult members who needed Richard to take the fall for the murders. They said that they personally witnessed guards wearing Odinist patches and were the ones always seen with Richard. They claimed that the men wearing the patches on their uniforms were always within earshot of any of Richard's conversations and also always monitoring him. They believed that they possibly threatened to kill his family, which caused Richard to ask over and over in every meeting with them if his family was alive, if they were okay, and if they were safe. It was like Richard was afraid that someone was going to kill his family, possibly the Odinist cult. The defense also stated that after it came out that they knew about the possible Odin connection, that the guards miraculously stopped wearing those patches. The defense further said that the conditions that Richard was kept in were so poor, and the guilt that he felt after falsely confessing over 60 times was so intense that his physical and mental health both started to rapidly decline. And it's true. He lost a ton of weight. He also refused to eat any of the prison meals, and he refused to sleep in the prison beds. And it was weird. After each confession, his behavior would just get super weird. Like, he would start drinking out of the toilet. He would start eating paper documents from his attorneys, he even at some point was eating his own feces. So in light of Richard's declining state, his defense team quickly filed a request to have him transferred to a different facility, but the judge denied it almost immediately. And that was far from the only hurdle that the defense was up against. In October of 2023, private crime scene photos were leaked to the media, and they were leaked from the defense's own office. And these images included images of showing exactly how Abby and Libby were found. And remember, Libby was found nude. So this wasn't just them compromising the integrity of the investigation or re-traumatizing the families. It was basically distributing sexual and violent images of a child. Now, the defense blamed it on a third party, saying they stole the photos from the lawyer's office. That's who is responsible. But whether or not that's true, I mean, it's just gross. It's disgusting and a huge violation to the girls, truly. And the judge in the case felt the exact same way. The same day as the leak, the judge announced that Richard's entire defense team was withdrawing from the case. And not because they wanted to, but because the court was basically forcing them to withdraw after this leak. But a month later, Richard appealed that decision. He appealed it to the Indiana Supreme Court, arguing that by removing his original lawyers, it violated his right to a fair trial. And they actually agreed. And so his old lawyers were put right back on the case. However, the defense got an even bigger blow after that because the judge ruled that they were not allowed to bring up any single mention of odinism, rituals, any cult behavior. None of that was going to be allowed in the trial at all. Now we know that that was the theory that the defense was working on. That was the theory that they were relying on. So when that happened, a lot of people were kind of wondering what they were going to say in Richard's defense instead now. What were they going to use as his defense when the trial finally started on October 18th, 2024? So the trial began, and at the very beginning of the trial, the prosecutor laid out their theory of the case, and they also explained what they believe Richard's motive was. According to them, Richard intended to sexually assault the girls, but something interrupted him. So instead, he forced them down that hill before ultimately killing them. And according to the prosecution, in order to find Richard guilty, all the jury needed to do was believe his own words and his own confessions, which they argued were rock solid, because those confessions included details that only the killer would have known at the time. For example, Richard mentioned that a white van had passed by as the girls were forced down the hill. Also, that their bodies were covered with branches. Now, of course, we all know these things now if you've been following the case, but this apparently was not public knowledge at the time of Richard's confession. So in their view, the only way that Richard could have known those specifics is if he's the one who did it. But the defense? They fired back, and they said that Richard's admissions were all coerced, and that they came only after he had suffered that serious trauma in prison, including being locked in solitary confinement for 13 months and being forced to take a very intense antipsychotic medication. They also showed the jury footage of Richard's treatment in jail, including clips of him being naked and physically restrained despite having no disciplinary infractions on record. The defense also pointed out that Richard didn't just confess to this murder, he confessed to a whole list of things that just never even happened. I mean, we're talking about claims that he shot the girls, killed his own family, sexually assaulted his sister and his daughter, like a wide variety of things. Now, of course, we know that Abby and Libby were not shot. Also, no one in Richard's family was killed. Richard's sister and daughter also testified that they had never been sexually assaulted. So why would he have admitted to so many different things that were simply untrue? Again, this was the defense's arguments. I mean, in other words, the defense was arguing that if someone is confessing to crimes that are completely false, that you can demonstrate are false, then how much weight should any of those confessions really carry, especially when they're coming from someone who is under extreme psychological pressure? And then they went after the prosecution's case as a whole, arguing that it was botched from the very beginning. Today's episode is sponsored by Wayfair. Now, the new year is here, and if you're anything like me, that means you like to reset your entire space and like get into a routine, purge a lot of things, get new like items for the rooms, for the house, just like reset everything. 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In another example, the sticks and the branches that were found on the girls' bodies weren't even collected as evidence by the investigators. Which, honestly, I have to say, I do agree with the defense on that one. I don't understand how sticks that are laying directly on top of murder victims and sticks that are covered in blood wouldn't be considered evidence. And you wouldn't take those with you. I mean, to me, at the very least, that does show that the investigators made some serious errors when it came to handling the crime scene. And finally, the defense pointed out that the prosecution's entire case and their timeline, it just doesn't work. Because that security video shows Richard's car leaving the trail before the murders even happened. The prosecution, though, they didn't seem too worried about the defense's arguments, because they still did have some key testimony that they were holding up their sleeves, including no less than four witnesses who saw Bridge Guy on the day of the murders. First, there was Riley Varese and her friend, Breanne Wilber, who said that Bridge Guy glared at them as they walked near the Freedom Bridge Trail. Then, he was spotted by Betsy Blair, who said that she saw him on the high bridge, which later on her way back toward Freedom Bridge, she saw Abby and Libby. And Betsy's testimony was pretty solid because she also had a Fitbit that had its data to back up all of her statements and, you know, track her whereabouts and where she walked to at what time. So that was a rock solid witness. And then finally, Sarah Carbaugh testified and she said that she saw Bridge Guy walking along the side of the road and that he was covered in mud and blood. This was around 4 p.m. So all in all, it painted a pretty dark picture of Bridge Guy's movements that day. But the defense pushed back on all four stories. Riley and Brianne claimed to have seen Bridge Guy near the Freedom Bridge trails at around 2.15pm, yet Libby's video proved that he was almost a mile away at the other high bridge at that exact time. And Brianne also described Bridge Guy as very tall, which Richard definitely isn't. Plus, Riley, Brianne, and Betsy all described him as quite young, no more than 30 years old. But Richard was 44 years old at the time. And as for Sarah, the defense pointed out that her story changed several times. She had originally told police that Bridge Guy was wearing a tan jacket, which of course doesn't match Libby's video or what Richard was actually wearing. So, there was a lot of push and pull in going back and forth with these witnesses. But to summarize, guys. All four witnesses gave descriptions that seemed to rule out Richard as Bridge Guy. But you know what gets me? All of them do describe seeing the only man on the trails that day, Bridge Guy. So if the defense's story is true, shouldn't at least one of them have seen both Bridge Guy and Richard? I mean, it's hard to not start thinking that Richard and Bridge Guy might actually be the same person when all of these witnesses are confident that Bridge Guy was the only man on the trails that day. So then after all of this, the trial then moved on to discussing electronic data. And the defense pointed out that all of the devices in Richard's house, you know, those 23 phones, not a single one of them showed any communication to or about Abby and Libby. But the prosecution was kind of like, okay, well, hold up. That's because the one phone that actually mattered was conveniently missing in all of this. Out of all of the dozens of phones that Richard hoarded, the one that he used back in 2017, has never been found, which honestly is a little bit suspicious for a guy that like hoards phones and has so many of them. Like, where's your main one? Then there's also the fact that Richard originally told investigators that he went to the trails that day to browse a stock trading site, yet there was no evidence of his cell phone accessing that site on any of the nearby towers, which is really weird because we know that the trail received at least some internet connection because Libby's phone kept pinging. And that's really not the only suspicious thing that Richard did around the time of the murders. Shortly afterward, he also changed the description of himself on his own license. He added two inches to his height, and he took off 15 pounds from his weight. Which, look, I mean, a lot of people want to be taller and skinnier. I get that. I think I even am a few pounds lighter on my license. But was it an innocent change, or could this have been another tactic to try and throw off the police? Then, multiple days of the trial were dedicated to discussing each side's theory about Richard's gun and the bullet that was found between the girls. The prosecution's firearm expert said that the bullet and the gun were definitely a match. She explained that three different parts of cartilage, the ejector, the extractor, and the chamber face of the barrel, were analyzed and that they matched to Richard's gun. But the defense really questioned how valid her comparisons were. For example, the firearm analyst took Richard's gun, fired it, and then compared those bullets to the one found at the scene. But remember, the bullet that was found at the scene wasn't actually fired. It had only been cycled through the gun. So the defense said it makes no sense to compare a cycled round to a fired one. We also learned that all firearm testing has at least a 2% rate of false positives, which that means in at least one out of every 50 cases, a bullet is identified as a match to a gun when it actually isn't. And that's kind of scary to think about. I mean, it's not a huge chance, I get that, but it definitely is possible, and all you need is reasonable doubt. So finally, it turns out that before receiving Richard's gun in October of 2022, the prosecution's own firearm expert had already received three other guns for comparison to the bullet, and she was not able to exclude any of them as having produced the bullet. And to me, look, I'm going to be honest, that's pretty damning evidence against Richard's gun being a definitive match. I mean, how strong of a match can it really be if a bunch of other guns could also have fired that same bullet, right? If she couldn't exclude them, that means any of them could have fired it. But that still leaves a big question. If the jury is supposed to believe that Richard didn't do it, who did? Remember, by this point, Keegan had been cleared, Ron was dead, and any mention of a cult was completely off the table. So instead, the defense put forward a two-killer theory. They argued that there is no way that one person could have killed both girls without anybody noticing, especially because Abby was killed so carefully that no blood was even left behind. Now, according to the defense, Bridge guy and another person assaulted the girls at the south end of the bridge, then loaded them up into a car and drove away. Then, about 12 hours later, they killed the girls near Deer Creek and dumped their bodies. Now I know, as far-fetched as all of that sounds, the defense did have some evidence to back it up. For one, the medical examiner agreed that it was possible that multiple weapons could have been used to kill the girls, which makes more sense if there was more than one killer. Plus, the backside of Libby's legs were covered in debris. So this added weight to the theory that she was killed off-site and then dragged for a little while to the spot where she was eventually found. And there was one more big detail that supported the defense's theory. Well, I should say that many believed supported their theory. According to the prosecution's timeline, the girls were killed sometime around 4 p.m. But it turns out that headphones were plugged into the audio jack on Libby's phone at 5.45 p.m. on the day of the murders. And they stayed connected for five hours before being unplugged. Which really makes it seem like maybe somebody was messing with the girl's phone, if not the girls themselves, much later than we originally thought. Now, could she have just left her headphones plugged in the whole time and then somebody unplugged them five hours later after they were done with everything? Possibly. It's, you know, for you to decide. But when it was all said and done, it was finally time for closing statements. And the prosecution highlighted their key evidence. Bridge guy video, the bridge guy audio, witnesses placing Richard at the scene, the bullet found between the girls that matched Richard's gun, and also, of course, the dozens and dozens and dozens of confessions, which, according to the prosecution, those confessions included details that only the killer would know. The defense, on the other hand, they argued that the prosecution's evidence ultimately doesn't point to Richard. There was no DNA, no fingerprints, no murder weapon, and no real connection between Richard and the girls. The witnesses who saw Bridge Guy also described somebody young, tall, and wearing a tan jacket, which definitely doesn't sound like Richard. They also claimed that the prosecution's ballistic analysis was pseudoscience, and that all of Richard's confessions had been, like I said, coerced. So with that, justice for Abby and Libby and Richard's fate, it was in the hands of the jury. Finally, on November 11th, 2024, after four days of deliberations, the jury reached a decision. They found Richard Allen guilty of the murders of Abby Williams and Libby German. On Friday, December 20th, 2024, Richard was sentenced to 65 years for Abby's murder and 65 years for Libby's murder. Both sentences to run consecutively, ultimately putting him away for 130 years. And during sentencing, the judge called Richard one of the most heinous criminals in all of Indiana. After the sentencing, prosecuting attorney Nicholas McLeland thanked Abby and Libby for helping catch their own killer, saying that Libby had the wherewithal to realize that something wasn't right and pull out her phone. Now, since Libby's phone was found under Abby's body, he said that Abby had the good sense to try to hide the phone from their killer so that law enforcement could eventually find it. Saying that even during the most terrifying moments of their young lives, the girls managed to provide the single biggest piece of evidence to solve their own murders. Despite this small bit of solace, the pain for the families is endless. Libby's grandmother, Becky, says that she still struggles with the guilt of letting the girls go to the trails that day. Libby's mother, Carrie, says that even though Libby would now be in her 20s, the family can't even bear the pain of celebrating her birthday anymore. Abby's grandmother, Diane, said that Abby's last words in Libby's phone were, quote, don't leave me up here. So because of those words, she didn't even allow herself to leave the trial, even during the graphic testimony. She honored those words for herself. And sadly, the heartbreaking journey for these families and for everybody who has been affected by this, it was far from over. In December of 2025, Richard's defense team filed a 113-page appeal outlining why his conviction should be overturned. Their main points were first, that the search of Richard's home was unconstitutional, so anything found during it should be thrown out. Second, that the confessions made by Richard while he was in jail should not have been played during the trial because he was clearly in a psychotic state, and third, that they weren't able to present a complete defense at trial because they weren't allowed to mention any of the Odinism or cult theories. And while I do agree with some of the defense's points, I also think that it would be pretty wild if after all of this time, after all of the suspects, and after the whole trial, if everything were to come undone because of an appeal. I've seen crazier things happen, but who knows? Overall, this case is really complex, and it's hard to know what to think. There is so much evidence that seems to point in every single direction, and overall, I don't really know what to think. At first, I thought that the bullet evidence was kind of like the nail in the coffin for Richard, but now that we know that the ballistic analysis is kind of a question mark, it has me second-guessing a little bit. I mean, then again, the confessions. Those really are damning in all of this. Yet still, there is no direct evidence tying him to the girls. So I don't know. I see both sides of the argument. Both sides have made compelling cases. I don't know. It's really hard to say. Like I said, my goal here was to lay out the facts of both sides without too much drama or bias because I know that this is a very controversial case. But I'm really curious to know what you guys think. Do you think that they got the guy that Richard Allen is the one? Or do you think maybe somebody else is responsible out there that this wasn't Richard? I mean, regardless what you think and which side of the argument you're on, the saddest part about this case that we can all agree on is that two beautiful young girls with their whole lives ahead of them, their lives were taken from them while they were scared, confused, and in pain. And that is just absolutely heartbreaking. And it's heartbreaking to think of all that they had to go through and all that their families have had to go through. So I really hope that by reopening this case, I've been able to shed some more light on their stories and what they experienced and hopefully maybe have you question a few things. Maybe if you were on the other side and you thought he was innocent this whole time, now do you still think that? Or if you thought he was guilty, now are you questioning that? What do you believe? Let me know in the comments. Before you go, don't forget to hit subscribe on YouTube and follow the podcast on your podcast app so that you don't miss future episodes. I'm Annie Elise, and as always, thank you for tuning in to another episode of Tend to Life Reopened. Stay safe. Bye.