I Didn’t Want to Have Kids. My Husband Did. Could Our Marriage Survive?

I've been reading Frank's book. He says, war is coming and that James Fraser dies in it. The groundbreaking series that captivated the world When I touched those stones, it wasn't a choice. comes to its epic conclusion. I'm meant to be here. Nothing can prepare you for how it ends. Have faith in us always. The final season of Outlander premieres March 6. It's no small miracle that we found each other. Only on Starz. From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. And today I'm talking to Helena DeGroat. For a long time, Helena's been asking herself some version of the same question, Should I have a kid? For some people, the answer to that question is really clear. But for Helena, it was really complicated. Most of the time, she thought, no, motherhood is not for me. But over and over, a little bit of doubt would creep in. And she'd wonder if she was making the right choice. She talks about all of this in her new podcast called Creation Myth. And I wanted to have Helena on today to understand how this question, should I have a kid, ended up consuming not only her life, but affecting the people she loved, testing her marriage, and changing the future she imagined for herself. Helena de Grote, welcome to Modern Love. Thank you, Anna. Helena, you've just released a very personal podcast series. This series is about wrestling with a big decision. The decision of whether or not you want to become a mother, and how to trust that the decision you make is the right one for you. And full disclosure, one of our producers on the show actually makes a brief cameo in it, which is how we heard about your story. I want to start here, though, with this certainty you had from a young age that you did not want to have kids. Tell me about it. Where did that certainty come from? You know, when I was a little kid, I already imagined when I'm a grown up, I'm going to live in a big city, have a really cool job. I did not know what kind. It didn't really matter. It was going to be cool. I was going to have an apartment with a lot of plants. And on the weekend, crucially, I was going to go dancing at a club. I mean, this sounds like a fabulous life, right? And there was no kid in that scenario. But that's not something I realized, you know? And my aunt, my mother's sister, also didn't have kids. And she had such an inspiring life. Like, she was an artist. she organized these dinner parties where everyone came in sort of costume and played music and with costume don't think halloween think like venetian ball sexy yeah sexy yeah you know so it was just the cool aunt i mean it's kind of a trope for a reason right yes oh she didn't have any kids so again it was not like oh just like her i don't want to have kids but i think that sort of fed into my image of what I would want for my own future. And it was only when I got older and people started asking me straight up, you know, like as a woman, you're in your early 20s and people are like, all right, so when is it happening? It happens to me all the time right now. Yeah, I'm in my early 30s. And so I did talk about it a lot, especially with my oldest friend, Sigrid. Even at this young age, you know, we met when we were, I was in my early 20s, she was in her mid-20s. Like, our lives, as I said, we were still figuring it out. We were working internships, working, you know, living with roommates. We were not in a place where we could imagine having kids, you know, like that was not practically possible. But she was very sure that she wanted them. You know, we would talk about this and she would try to convince me, but not because she had any skin in the game. I think she was just puzzled that I didn't want that because for her it was so clear. and she was my friend. We loved each other, still love. I don't know why I'm talking in the past. You know, she's my friend. We love each other. So I didn't have to be defensive. So it was almost in conversation with her that I don't want to say I figured out why because that is overstating it, but it just helped me think through it. And I think what she was trying to do was reassure me, you know, like I think you'd be fine, you know, like you have such a big heart. That's the thing that she would sort of talk about the most. What she imagined that love would be like, and like, Helena, you're so good at love. Like, there's no problem. I think she was mostly trying to make sure that I wasn't missing out on something that I actually would want, because I thought, oh, I am not good enough or not right, something like that. Were you convinced? Oh, no. She tried. Thank you. But, well, you know, again, it was interesting. Like, I love those conversations and I initiated them a lot. You know, it's not like it was an ordeal or, oh, here we go again. You know, it was really fun because my whole life was still open. And I was still figuring out who I, you know, who I was going to be, right? I did wonder, is she rights? It's interesting, you know, because I feel like this question, right, would it be something I want? It existed on the inside. And I rarely verbalized it. You know, I feel like externally I was getting more and more certain. And I started also in these conversations with Sigrid, right, getting more and more reasons together to sort of say, well, this is why and this is why and this is why. That was just another bit of sand that was dumped in my gears, but it was inside. So I wouldn't tell people necessarily. Why not? Maybe this is like me liking order, but I like being sure. You know, I don't like doubt. doesn't feel good. Generally, no. Right. You say that, you know, you were getting sort of practiced at this debate almost. You were assembling your reasons for why you didn't want kids, at least externally, that you'd communicate to other people. What were some of those reasons? You know, I always thought, well, I don't know what I'm going to do for a job, but I probably want to like I'm not good at making money. Like I was pretty sure that my job would be very interesting and very poorly paid. And I thought, well, I don't want to have to give that up. You know, I don't want to be forced because I need to take care of a kid and provide for them, you know, to do a job I don't like. And then there's the reason that was for me the most convincing to myself and also the one that shut people up the quickest, it was my mental health. You know, when you say to people like, I don't want a kid because I struggle a lot with depression and there's a lot of depression in my family, usually they're like, oh, okay, yeah. You know, Because then they don't want to go into it. But that was a very real thing. And I was often, yeah, as I said, like I got depressed. But then when I was not depressed, I also just felt sort of low. It's almost as if there is very dark wallpaper in my mind. And that's just where I live, you know. Like the walls just happen to be plastered with like dark blue wallpaper. And that's going to affect the color of my view, you know, of my experience. So for a kid, you didn't want to pass on this? Connect that to the sort of not having kids for me. Yeah, yeah. Well, I didn't think that life was this gift. You know, I felt like, wow, it's sort of a hassle, you know? Or a fact. Yeah. Neutral maybe? No, not even neutral. I just thought, like, why? Because people, you know, would say you will love them more than you will love anyone. And I thought, well, if that's the case, why would you inflict the world on them? Why would you inflict life on them, you know? Eventually, you meet a man. Yeah. You get married. How old are you when you get married? 31. How did you two talk about kids, the kid thing, as you put it? Well, I didn't do that right. Let me just put that out there first. Hindsight. Yeah. The day we met, I was not looking for any kind of romance. It was sort of a one afternoon stand, you know. And during that very fun afternoon, the Kahnembroke. Oh. And he got really, like, he sort of, you know, panicked or felt really bad. You know, he felt really bad. He felt like he had done something bad. And he started apologizing. And are you okay? And, you know, I was, yeah, I was okay, you know. Also, well, there's nothing to be done about it now. And he told me, don't worry. Whatever you decide, I will support you. He said that the first time you guys slept together? Yeah, so we had met like four hours before. Holy crap. I know. That was my reaction also. Like, wait, what? It's so intense. And like inside me, I was laughing. You know, to me, it was like, wow, that's a lie. You know, like, what is, are you? I'd be like, thank you. I'm going to go get plan B. Yeah, you know, and I thought, well, see, he's American. You know, I'm Belgian. So I thought like, oh, maybe this is a cultural thing, you know? Maybe that's just how Americans are. I don't know too many, you know. And for me, this was a very funny moment. For him, it was not. He looked very serious. So I thought, okay, well, you know, let me reassure him then. And so I told him, you know, right then and there, first day we met, don't worry about it. I wouldn't go through with it anyway. I don't want kids. Wow. And what was his reaction? Well, this was the first of many non-conversations that we had about this. Like, he didn't really respond to that, you know? And also, it was like, it was the end of the after, like, I had to catch my train, you know, like, we were not, this didn't really seem like, oh, a door that we now have to open. Sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah, so that was that, basically. But then it, I mean, you keep seeing each other, eventually you get married. You say this was the first of several kinds. How else did it come up, you know, later on in your relationship and then in your marriage? Well, I have to tell the strange story of how we got married. Please. Because this is how it should go, right? Like you meet someone and then you meet them more often. And then at some point, way down the line, you get married. And in the meantime, you have all these conversations like about kids. Okay, that's, I recommend this course of action. Okay, I didn't do that. And we were like, after he went back to the U.S., we were in touch like a little bit, but not really. And we definitely didn't talk about the kid thing. And then three years later, I went to visit a friend in the U.S. And I thought, hmm, who else lives in the U.S.? That guy from that fun condom breaking day. Yeah, exactly. So I thought, okay, well, you know, let me email him and maybe he wants to hang out. And again, I had not romance in mind. And I was just like, this guy makes me laugh so much. He's really good to be around, you know. He's from California. I've never been to California. I hear the weather is nice. So I went to visit my friend, took a plane down to California, and we spent two weeks together. He had planned out this whole road trip, like along the coast, you know. I mean, it's the most beautiful place in our country, maybe. I mean, it's made for falling in love. So tell me you fell in love on this road trip. Oh, 100%. Oh, well, good. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So, yeah, so at the end of those two weeks, we get married. Oh, oh. Yeah. So, yeah, exactly. I like that. I need to say this in order for the rest to make sense. Yes, yes. You know, so we fall in love, right? And so we decide we want to be together. But I'm European and he's American. So if we want to live in the same place, you know, we're going to need some papers. So just, yeah, we were just like, well, there's only one solution. And so it was very simple. It wasn't like, oh, you know, one of us went down on one knee. It was just really like, well, it's clear to both of us what we have to do. Let's do it. So we did that. And while we were in line, so we were in San Francisco at that point. And while we were in line at City Hall, I tell him like, hey, you know this about me, right? I don't want to have a kid. Wow, you bring it up in line to get your marriage papers. Yeah and this was like there a system I don know if it across the U but in San Francisco or in California you have to go there get some piece of paper and then come back the next day and then you can get married So I was giving him quote advance notice 24 hours. Yeah, exactly. Good for you. He can still bow out, you know. So anyway, I told him, like, you know this about me. I don't want to have kids. And he said, I'd rather be with you than have kids. So to me, this settled the issue. You know, I didn't feel the need to, again, this is naive in hindsight, we did not really have a conversation about it. I never asked him, do you want to have kids? I just thought, I've done my due diligence. I've told him the information about me. He knows we're good. We'll be right back. The groundbreaking series that captivated the world. When I touched those stones, it wasn't a choice. Comes to its epic conclusion. It's no small miracle that we found each other. The final season of Outlander. Watch now, only on Starz. I'm Judson Jones. I'm a reporter and meteorologist at the New York Times. For about two decades, I've been covering extreme weather. which is getting worse because of climate change. And it's becoming more important to get timely and accurate weather information. That's why we send these customized newsletters, letting you know up to three days in advance about extreme weather that could impact you or a place you care about. At The Times, you can be confident that everything we publish is based off the most accurate, scientific and vetted information available to us. because we want you to be able to make real-time decisions about how to go about your life. This is the kind of work that makes subscribing to The New York Times so valuable, and it's how you can support fact-based, independent journalism. So if you'd like to subscribe, go to nytimes.com slash subscribe. You moved to the U.S. Yeah. You settle into a life together. Does this come up again? I mean, it sounds like you weren't bringing it up. Did he? Yeah, he brought it up pretty quickly. And I can't tell you how quickly or when was the first time, but it was pretty quickly after I moved. And I just remembered that all of a sudden this became a thing that he started to want to open up, as if it was still something that we were discussing. And he told me many years later, many, many years later, that he had said to his mother, she doesn't want to have kids, you know? And his mom reassured him, don't worry about it. She'll change her mind. At her age, I didn't want kids either. You know, she'll come around. And so I don't think he lied when he said, you know, like he does not have a malicious bone in his body. I don't think he lied when he said, I'd rather be with you than have kids. I think it was just some combination of like, I think I can do this. And then the other part is like, well, she'll probably come around anyway. Right. Or, you know, sort of holding two contradictory thoughts at once, which is like quite literally the human experience, I feel, you know, like the human condition. So it's clear it becomes, he starts bringing this back up, opening back up this door that you thought was closed. What would he say, you know, even generally, if you don't remember specific conversations, and how would you respond? Yeah. Well, again, you know, one of the things that he would say is like, you are such a loving person. You would be good at this. And the other thing, you know, he knew that I felt sort of like a scaredy cat comparison to him, right? He was this worldly man who had done all this very adventurous stuff and I had not. And so I think this was just another example of that to him, you know, that like having a kid, sure, it's this big thing. You won't know what it's like until you do it. So in that sense, it's very much an adventure. But, you know, just get over your fear. And this was a very difficult time for me in general because I had just moved. I had just quit my job. I had left behind my family, my friends, you know, my language, my city, my apartment. Like everything that I knew and loved and that made me feel like me, I had left behind. And I couldn't work yet. I didn't have a single friend yet. That's tough, yeah. So I just was like, what am I? I'm so untethered. I don't even know who I am. Because I would tell him, right, like the, oh, yeah, well, the inequality between us also. Like he was American. He knew the place. He had a job. He was sort of in his, like he was home, right? And I was not. So he had that advantage. He had a good job. I was not yet allowed to work. And again, you know, to go back to what we said before, like, even if I had a job, it would never be the one that would be able to provide for the family. And, you know, he could be the one to stay home with the kid. Like, I knew that, like, if anyone had to give up work, it would be me. And so that made me very angry, too. But then he, one of the things that he would say is like, no, I would, we would figure it out. I would take a job where I could take part time, you know, like, I have savings. Like, I would not let you do this alone. He has an answer to everything you're saying. Yeah. Did he ever convince you? Not with words. Something happened many years into our marriage. I got pregnant by accident and I found out when he was on a trip and the day I found out was the day he was coming back so I knew I had only this much time to sort of I wanted to figure out what to do before he came back because my reasoning was if I decide not to have this baby, I don't even want him to know that I'm pregnant because that would gut him. Wow, your husband, you don't want him to know. Yeah. So he came home and I thought, well, you know, I can't share this because I haven't figured it out yet. But he came in and he had just learned that his sister had died. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. And she had been sick for a long time. It was not a surprise, but it was, you know, she was very young. It was really tragic. And also, there was this sort of cosmic element to it, right? Like, here I have this new life inside me. Like, this one life begins as this other life ends. And I felt like maybe I don't know everything about life. Like maybe life knows some things that are bigger than me and my little will and my plans for my job and whatever. And so I told him. Wow. And his face, like I will never forget this, his face, he was holding his hand in front of his mouth, I think maybe in order to hide his smile. But it was like the sun broke over, like through the clouds over his face, you know, like he was beaming immediately. That was the moment where I thought, I think I should try. Well, there's no trying with having a kid, right? How should I put this? It's not like I think there's no confidence involved, you know? I did not have any confidence that I could do it. But I thought, he is so happy. There's like a sign here, you know, with his sister dying and me being pregnant. I think I should stop imposing my will. I think I should just let life run its course and go with this. So did you? No. The short answer is no. But it took a little bit, you know? Like, also because maybe that's not everyone's experience, But my experience being pregnant was a really profound physical and emotional change. You know, like immediately, like the hormones that run through your body are a powerful drug, you know. And I felt like calm and optimistic in a way that I don't really usually, you know, do. And so that gave me confidence. So I was like, yeah, maybe I can, maybe this is what it will feel like to be a mother. Like you just, you know, you're just sort of transformed into a person who can do this. It must be, yeah, it must be that life sort of has, or like, you know, evolution has arranged it this way, right? Like maybe you can't do it, but then it's happening and you can, you know? So I thought maybe this is just the start of how it's going to be. You felt good. I felt great. Wow. Okay, this is all this retro stuff that I don't intellectually agree with or sort of, you know, ethically or whatever. But purely physically, emotionally, I felt like such a woman. I felt like I always wear pants, you know. I felt like I need dresses. I need to sort of walk and feel my clothes sort of whirl around me. All this stuff, you know, from just the hormones. The hormones are retro. I mean, I am struck that at the time you're moving forward with it. This is a thing that for the past several years, you've been incredibly staunchly opposed. You are living the opposite of what you intended. Yep. And you are feeling good. I mean, you're being flooded with hormones. Yeah. But you're feeling good. Yeah. Optimistic? Oh, yeah. I felt, you know, this thing that I said earlier, right, about like, how can you inflict this world onto a kid? Yeah, what did you think about that? Did not think about it. Huh. You know? And I don't, I can't tell you what I did think. It was just not on my mind. And I just believed that things would be okay. How long did this feeling last? I don't know 100%. I think two weeks. The hormones changed. I got nauseous. Also, so his sister had died. We went to California to see his family. You're not in California anymore at this time? Oh, sorry. Yeah, at this point, we'd moved to New York. Gotcha. And it's while we were in California that it started shifting. I had been so unhappy in California when we lived there. You know, it was not my place. I love New York. I love seasons. I love walking. I love people with a sort of darker sense of humor, you know. So it was just California was not my place. And there we were again in this place where I'd been so unhappy. And yeah, and the hormones started changing and I got nauseous and I just wasn't feeling at all the drug that I felt. And it was like I came back to myself, you know, and it turns out I was still me and I still didn't want this. and it hit you when you were in California. Yeah, we were staying with this mom and I remember exactly where I was. I was, you know, on the carpet, on the floor, in the guest room and I felt sort of trapped in my own body. You know, like this clump of cells is going to soon turn into, you know, a fetus and then a baby and then it's going to, you know, come out and I don't, it just felt like, wow, it's not going to get better from here, you know. It's only going to entrap me more every passing week. And if I already feel trapped now, I can't do this. And so I told him. You told him then. Yeah. I mean, I went online. I booked the first available appointment with Planned Parenthood in New York. That was two weeks ahead. And then I told him, and I flew to New York. Wow. How did he respond to that? He was so kind. I know. It breaks my heart to think about. Like, he was not angry with me. He didn't try to convince me. He helped me. He booked my plane ticket for me. He drove me to the airport. But you were doing this on your own? Well, I don't remember this 100% sure, but I think he asked like you know yeah like should I come And I think I said no That seemed like too you know what I mean I don want him to be there holding my hand while I abort this you know This baby that he really wants. Yeah. Yeah. So I did it on my own. How did you feel leaving the office? So I went to Planned Parenthood. I can't remember how. It was maybe like four people that you see, you know, before they give you the abortion. And, you know, they would ask me questions. Like, what kind of birth control do you use? You know, like, so they ask. And then, like, one person does the sonogram. So there were all these people who were asking me all these questions. And I like asking people questions. So they would ask me and I would ask them. And they were so wonderful and open, you know. I was like, do you want to have a kid? you know and wow you're asking them that oh yeah at the Planned Parenthood at the Planned Parenthood and they would answer me you know they were so open every single one of them you know and one was like yeah I think so not with the guy I'm with though that's real sister yep and then you know another woman was like I have kids I have two I had my first one when I was 14 and I love my kids to death and also I don't ever want anyone to have to go through what I went through. So this is why I work here. So these women were really forthcoming and they were really they treated me like a human who was making a very important decision for her life and they were taking that seriously. I had the surgery and then I came out of the operation room. And they put you in like one of those big chairs with a little curtain around it. And they give you juice and a cookie. And suddenly I felt very guilty towards my husband, you know. And another nurse comes up to me and is like, how are you feeling? And I suppose she's, I don't know, actually, I suppose, but probably she's asking about my heart rate or whatever. But I told her how I was feeling. You said I'm feeling guilty. Oh, yeah. Guilty because your husband wanted this baby. Yeah. You shared that with her. Yeah. And she sat down on the armrest of this big chair. And she said, you have nothing to feel guilty about. If you don't want this, it would not be right to do this. And you have, you know, you did what was right for you. and I really want you to know that you did nothing wrong. So this is a long way to answer your question, how did you feel when you left that office? I felt so supported. I felt incredibly relieved and grateful. Also, what I didn't know was that those hormones are gone the moment that the clump of cells is gone. Yeah. I did not know that. And maybe that's not, maybe a scientist is going to call you and be like, no. But that's what it felt like. Yeah. So I was no longer nauseous immediately. I no longer felt like sort of dissociated from my body. Like I was me again. It was like, oh, I'm back. Here's my brain as I know it. slightly more pessimistic, but welcome back. It's nice to feel like myself again. So yeah, I knew right away this was the decision for me. I guess I want to know, did this abortion change your relationship, change your marriage? Yes, absolutely. How? You know, we weren't the biggest talkers about hard emotional stuff. You know, he was not very good maybe at sort of voicing the deepest layers of like all of the stuff that went on psychologically for him. and I was afraid to ask you know I kind of didn't want to know know what? yeah how he was feeling I didn't want to know about his sadness you know and so because he wasn't offering and I wasn't asking we didn't talk about it but it definitely he was after that he was sort of slowly wasting away, you know? Like, he didn't eat well anymore. Like, he's such an optimistic person. He's very quick to smile. There's, like, a sort of light in his eyes. You know, he's always so happy to see, you know, this bird and this squirrel. And, like, that was gone. and like his face was sort of gray and that went on for months. Did that guilt resurface that you'd felt in the chair after them? Oh, yeah. What did you do with it? Nothing. I smushed it down, you know. I didn't want to do anything with it because I did keep, like the guilt didn't make me wonder, oh, did I make a mistake? No, I knew. I really, really, really, really, really knew. And so it was guilt, but also powerlessness. Like, I am so sorry that I hurt you, this person that I love so much. And also, I'm not going to do anything about it. Like, that's awful, you know? Yeah. Did you stay together? What happened? We stayed together for another year, year and a month or so. and uh and then it was my birthday and i organized a birthday party i never organized birthday parties like that seemed so indulgent to me so much like for a child and also like i don't love parties even when i just go to one you know and and now i was like you know life is short and i'm gonna do a party and i'm so happy and this is like because i was so happy with our life you know because okay my husband was really not doing great but then he then after a few months you know he started something shifted he started taking care of himself again he started working out he loves that like he you know he went swimming a lot like he just did the things that made him feel good and he felt better and so I thought fabulous we've turned the corner we're back you know we've like withstood the storm or you know So I was riding this high, you know, and I thought, wow, I love my life, love New York, love my relationship. Don't want to have a kid, don't have a kid. Great. So I organized a birthday party and had such a good time, surprised myself that I had a good time at a party. And that night, I was still sort of, you know, just, yeah, like up, you know, from the whole party thing. And we're lying in bed and something happens on his face. And, you know, he says, I need to talk about something. and he told me I really want to have a kid I have to try this and I think it was just like you know when I told him I'm sorry I can't do this I have to have an abortion and he didn't fight me it was like that I didn't fight him because he was this person I care about so much I want him to have what he wants and I can't give it to him so he left this relationship with someone you love so deeply it's so clear to me ended because you did not you could not be a mother where did that leave you? there was a I could be in order to protect him, I wanted to really be like clear throughout our eight years of marriage, you know, like, nope, don't want that. You wanted to have a boundary. Yeah. And I just didn't want to mess with him, you know. Give him hope or maybe hope didn't exist. There you go. I didn't want him to see any ambiguity from my side about this. But then he left, you know, and all of a sudden I just put down my armor and take stock of my life too, right? And like, wow, I love this man. He is gone. This is because I don't want to have a kid. This is what my decision has cost me. Wait, why do I not? Is this really so important? This is more important than he is to me? Like it just, it's so ridiculous, right? Because at this point I was, yeah, 39. I had been thinking about this pretty intense, like this was, you know, a question that I was always sort of thinking about in some capacity for two decades, right? And yet in that moment, it was as if it was the first time that I was really asking. hmm it's really interesting to me because there's a way I feel this could have gone where you know it you you get this divorce or he leaves you know you you separate and it's so hard but you look at the situation you say you know I knew I didn't want to have kids now I don't have kids you know it's settled but this is not what happened in fact the opposite happened where it's like this door was open and all of these emotions you hadn't perhaps allowed yourself to feel flooding in and it sounds like doubt yeah is one of those emotions doubt in this certainty that you don't want to be a mother that you don't want kids well you know the interesting thing is like the doubt was not about do i want to have a kid or not i still felt certain that i didn't The doubt was more like, do I not want it for the right reasons? Maybe this thing that my husband said, like, it's your fear talking. Maybe he's right. What I asked myself was, what is wrong with me? Why am I this kind of person? And can I change? we'll be right back the groundbreaking series that captivated the world when i touched those stones it wasn't a choice comes to its epic conclusion it's no small miracle that we found each other the final season of outlander watch now only on stars I'm opening up crossplay. I've been playing against Dan, my colleague at the New York Times. Kat's played another move. She played stoop for 36 points. I've got a Z, which is 10 points. I'm guessing tanga is not a word. Let's see. Tenga is a word. Oh. Dan played his last turn. Let's see who won. It's so close. But I did win. New York Times game subscribers get full access to crossplay, our first two-player word game. Subscribe now for a special offer on all of our games. Basically, you're in this soup of trying to figure out, you know, what you want, how you feel about it, who you are. Are you talking to people during this time? How are you sorting this through? You know, I talked so much. Like, this is actually where I started recording the stuff that would go into the show. Because, like, I don't journal, you know, but I talk into my voice memo app as a way of journaling. and processing what I'm feeling. So that's what I would do. I would either just hit record and talk to myself about my feelings, or I would send a voice message to a friend, or I would meet up with a friend, like, say, go for a walk in the park, and ask can I record our conversation And it was really for me a way to go back to square one in a way like okay who am I really Can I change this What would it take to change I was sort of almost asking for input, like, who do you think I am? You know, I wasn't asking that directly. And also, I wasn't aware of it at the time, but that was what I was asking. But I think there was a little bit of a both desperation and possibility in that moment because it's like maybe i can change yeah you're allowing yourself to think more deeply and to really inquire about the why behind your certainty it's in this time which what a time that you meet someone Mm-hmm. Were you looking for it? Oh, God, no. God, no. Speaking of guilt, I felt so guilty because this was six months after my husband left. Okay, so here's what happened. My husband left. I happened to be extremely busy with work, which was such a blessing. That's good. Because I could just plunge into that and not be sad every moment of every day. So I would record these messages and cry in my phone. And then I would just get back at my computer and work. Like I was not looking to date, right? I can't imagine you were. No. I was talking to my friends and I was happy to drown my sorrows in my podcast. It happens to the best of us, yeah. And it's through this podcast that I collaborated with someone who, you know, he came to my home so we could work on this thing. And I a little bit lost my mind the moment I saw him. I felt like I was 12 again and I had my first crush where I didn't, I'd never talked to a boy, that kind of thing, you know? What a freaking addictive feeling. I'm just smiling because I'm like, yeah, that's what it is. You lose your mind a little. Yeah. I stopped eating. You were down bad. I lost so much weight. It was so ridiculous. Oh, my gosh. Because you were feeling so obsessed with this person. Yeah. I had downloaded a picture of him that I found on his website. Oh, my God. I've done this before. Wait, no. I don't know. Say what you're going to say. What did you do? I put it on my desktop. and then I would like work on my thing that had a really close deadline. And then I would just like click away my project and just look at that picture. Oh, my God. And then be like, God damn it, Helena, you have no time for this. Delete the picture, work. Of course, like an hour later, just go back to the website, download the same picture. I actually haven't done that. But I mean, I have Googled pictures of my crushes before. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so these feelings are intense. Yeah. They're taking you by surprise. eventually you move from just looking at the photo of him on the desktop to dating. Yeah. And I mean, I'm sure you can anticipate this question. You get into this relationship with this new person. Are you talking about kids? I mean, does it come up? I mean, and again, it's sort of like at this point, I am not going to have this discussion ever again, right? Like, I'm not going to enter into the heartache of that. So I want to be, I feel like I was clear with my husband, but I want to be, like, extra clear, you know. So I told him very quickly, like, hey, here's the deal. I do not want kids, you know. And how did he respond? Yeah, he was fine with that. He said, we were 39 when we met. He's my age. And he said, yeah, I have never really thought about it. And you were like, me neither. To be a man, right? Just sort of decades of every single waking. And all these conversations with my friends, right? My female friends who are also, yeah, exactly. Okay, I'm laughing, but I'm also sort of like, exactly, to be a man. Could happen, could not, yeah, sort of, I don't know, like, we'll see. Also, I have like 40 more years in me that I can have a kid, you know? Totally. No rush. Anyway. I am laughing. Yeah. So, you know, so, okay, so we had that conversation. And when I needed to figure out birth control, I thought, you know what, let me just go for the, for the thing that makes it sort of clear forever. I'm going to get my tubes tied. Huh. Okay. Because I don't know if a lot of people would jump to that. But, so tell me the thought behind that decision. You were just like, I don't even want this to be a possibility on the table. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You know, I was just so, because I don't know, birth control kind of sucks. There's no good solution. Like, I don't like the hormonal stuff. Totally. I think a lot of people feel that way. Right. Right. It all sucks. And so I thought, how about I'm done with this forever? and um i guess it was i i know that it was also a way for myself to sort of draw a line and be like i've thought about this long enough i'm i want to think about something else now you know so if i have this surgery it will be a done deal and we we don't have to look back it will the certainty will just become a fact. And then that's that. And let me just, because you'd spent some time wondering, like, am I the kind of person who could change her mind? But this decision, making that decision, would foreclose that change. And that felt okay to you now? Yeah. I mean, it is contradictory, right? But again, I think, I feel like maybe I've overstated it a little before, but like my goal was not to get myself to a place where I could want a kid. It was just like, I want to transform. I want to be a different kind of person. I don't want to be afraid anymore. I want to say yes to things. I want to be more outgoing, you know, take risks. Maybe if I do somehow become that person, who knows? Who knows what I'll, right. But it was not really like, oh, that's the goal. I'm going for that. I understand. And this felt like a powerful decision that someone who knows what they want would make. Okay, this makes sense to me. So you're like, I'm going to do this. Yep. I can think about something else. That's what you, it would open up space in your mind, in your world to just not have to think about it. Exactly. I would be free from that forever. That sounded so great, you know. So I found a doctor. And in New York, you have to sign this piece of paper that is like, I consent to do this. And then also you need to wait because are you really sure? Are you really sure? And then you can come back after a month and get it done. So I signed the paper and then the waiting started. And I was so relieved that like, wow, here I was on the cusp of like a new life, right? Where like I could think about different things. I didn't have to worry about getting pregnant ever again. And this doctor had made no problem at all and not judged me or anything. I cried with relief the moment I left her office, you know? And then I kept crying on the subway home. and I got home and I was still crying and I thought, hmm, this is a lot of crying for just relief. Huh. You know, so again, let me do some processing out loud. So I sent another voice message to a friend and started talking, like, why am I this sad, right? This great thing is about to happen. I'm finally released from this hold that this question has had over me, you know, for such a long time. Why am I all of a sudden so sad? And it just, these questions that came up didn't even make sense to me. Like, will I still feel like a woman once I've got my tubes tied? And like, this is so horrible, right? Like, I don't believe that for a second. And anyone who has their tubes tied or anyone who's infertile, like, forgive me, you know? This is not about you. This was what was coming up for you emotionally. And it was just a fear that came out of left field. I was like, what is this, you know? And, like, will I still be desirable? You know, will this new man that, you know, that is sort of the, I'm not doing it for him, obviously. But, like, will he still want me? Maybe it's so unsexy, you know? So I felt all kinds of ways about it. very scared of the surgery also. You know, surgery is not a thing that I would ever choose to do. And here I was choosing. And then in that voice message, I had this feeling. It was like a fingernail thickness big, right? Just imagine the tiniest little feeling that was like, wait, do I want to have a kid? And that tiny, like that fingernail thick, maybe. I mean, that could not exist if you went through with this appointment. Exactly. Yep. It's kind of what I said in the beginning, you know, I love certainty. Yeah. Like, I think, sure, you know, I was doing this for birth control, But I think the main reason that I was doing it was to sort of put this issue to bed once and for all. And I realized in that moment, oh, that will never happen. I will never know what this is like. In a way, you cannot make that decision. Nobody can. Right? Like, you don't know what you're deciding. You don't know what you're saying yes to or no to. You don't know. And I thought forever that I did, that I could know. If only I read one other book about it. If only I asked one other friend about it. I could know. And I got to a place where I realized, no, you either jump or you don't. But it will be uncertain either way. You will have no way of knowing where you're going to land. And so tell me where that realization, how that factored in to your decision of whether or not to go through with this surgery. I think it was the moment that I realized, oh, I will never, like this certainty that I was chasing, I'll never catch it. You can't. And so if I can't be certain, and if the surgery won't be anything that will help me be certain, why would I take this risk? It felt unnecessary. As we sit in the studio today, you do not have a kid. I don't. I hate to poke a hole in our entire conversation, but what if you end up regretting that? Do you think there's a possibility in which you would end up regretting that decision? I think regret is a very big word. Like, I'm not afraid of regret. I think I will always be curious. What if? You know? And that will always have a little sadness. around it. Like, one of the cutest things is, in my opinion, a toddler with a helmet. Oh, my God. Or glasses. Right? Those glasses that attach in the back. Oh, my God. With the little elastic back. So cute. Nothing could be cuter than that. Yes. Yes. And so before I would see that and completely melt and think, wait, is that a sign that I'm making a mistake. You know, every stupid little thing could throw me off balance. And I was always asking the question, am I wrong? Am I wrong? Am I wrong? And now I'm just like, that is so freaking cute. I feel my heart ache a little. You know, let me just feel that. And then I'm going to go on with my day. So I don't think like regret is sort of the size of the thing that I will land on. It's curiosity. Yeah. What a beautiful way to reframe regret. This curiosity about what could have been. Helena, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you, Helena. The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Rifa Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Davis Land, with help from Sarah Curtis. It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. Original music in this episode by Alicia B. Etoop, Carol Saburo, Pat McCusker, and Dan Powell. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got those instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening. you