1137: Augusta From The Caddie’s Perspective

Music Be the right club. Be the right club today. Music That's better than most. Music That is better than most. Music Better than most. Music Music Expect anything different. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. Sally here. Got a little master's appetizer for you here. We have two episodes coming out this week. We'll have another one coming out Thursday evening. But this episode is a collection of three old interviews that we've done with people that have cattyed in the master's multiple times and very recognizable names. The first one we're going to get to Maddie Kelly, long time catty for Mark Leishman. He came over to the kill house. This is back in 2020. We did this interview. He went through every single hole at Augusta just told catty stories. Got deep in the yard and spoke, did numbers, all the nerdiest possible stuff. It was really, I had a lot of fun going back through these, combing through these. I tried my very best to remove anything that was really not relevant to current masters in there. But there are some interesting time capsule related stuff in this interview. And also you can tell, I took some of it out, but you can tell we were maybe a little too obsessed with Bryson going into the 2020 master's and what he was going to do to that place. So that is the first interview that you're going to hear. Next up is going to be John Wood, long time catty at Augusta, of course, works for NBC. Now we go through just kind of his experience at Augusta national as well. And on the back half bones is going to recount being on the bag for Phil Mickelson's three major wins, three masters wins. Excuse me. A bunch of details and amazing, cool stories on the back half of that one. So this is the Augusta national episode from the caddies perspective. I greatly appreciate all these guys time back in the day and it was fun to reheat this and go back to it and nerd out for a little bit. You're going to be able to tell quickly. We talk a lot in this episode about the need to be precise at Augusta, how you need to hit your number on command, navigate wind, adrenaline, elevation changes, all of it throughout this golf course, more so than any other golf course, probably in the world. Playing a golf ball that you have complete trust in and is fit for your game eliminates a huge variable in an already complicated question. You need to know the shot you hit perfectly is going to fly in a predictable window, spin the right amount and carry the right amount. You can't be second guessing your equipment. That's why seven out of 10 golfers on the PGA tour count on quality consistency and T degree in performance of titles, pro v one and pro v one X model golf balls. Head to titleist.com to find out what ball is right for your game. Again, here's our interview with Maddie Kelly, longtime caddy for Mark Leishman. This was back in 2020. Enjoy. You can almost put anyone who's just watched the event and any part of that golf course, you know, exactly where to miss it, where to hit it, what slopes you can use, roughly how far you got. So I feel like people almost wear themselves out at that event early in the week. They're so excited. Most excited you're going to be for a practice round all year. And then you get to Thursday and you definitely jacked up, but it's you can be flat. So yeah, we're going to try and just ease into it a bit more this year. When you show up, do you go straight to like, I mean, gosh, you have to get like a biometric scan to get your caddy to like. Yeah, so Mark's the agency sends in. Well, I think if you've been before they just use the same one, but you go to, I think it's gate four, just on Washington Road for the caddies. And it's like an airport security. Yeah, you show your tour credential when you first show up and that gets you to the cat and they'll someone will come meet you and take you get your credential for the week. And then if you've been before, they'll have your overall size and all sorts of stuff ready to go and then pick up your yardage book and stuff that week. Yeah, from there. How are the overalls? Terrible. You know, like, we love them. You wear the no-lake up shirt. Well, yeah, yeah. It's one of those. They're not comfortable by any means. And but it's the event like for any other event, it wouldn't work, but you don't mind wearing them for the masses. It might be nice for a November one. It might be a little warmer. I think it'd be much nicer. So you get a new yardage book every time we're going to get into some of the some of the details of the yardage book, but do you go and then translate your prior year notes into the into the new yardage book? How much of that stuff do you need to have written down to really remember it? I think it was 19. We had to they changed the rules on the sides of the yardage books and the green, the pictures of the greens in the book so everything had to be transferred because those previous years books weren't. I think you can use them for approach shots and stuff like that. But now that you know that you use them for green reading. So to make to get rid of any sort of accident that could happen, we just transferred every single note over. Are they calling out changes to the course on the New Year's Yardage Book? They don't apart from like the fifth tea last year that changed. Obviously, dramatic difference. They don't. I don't. They definitely like when you check in, they won't tell you what's changed. What's happened? I'm sure they'll put any significant change in the book, but it's they kind of just do it so quietly and well, as we got to go find it. Yeah, for sure. Do caddies like talk to each other like, Hey, do you notice this? Yeah. Yeah. Do you find yourself like imagining something like was that tree? That's the thing like you almost convince yourself stuff's going to happen before it even happened. Like, have they flattened this part of the green because this part doesn't seem to break as much like maybe the greens are just faster or you know, so you just. Yeah, it changes you to you and stuff like that. But yeah, you're you definitely like you almost overanalyze every single into the property. Well, it might be the only place that can just drop a tree in somewhere if they want to. Yeah, exactly. It's no one else really has the budget to just the guy all of a sudden we're going to do this, this and this. Exactly. The secret of nature of it is what I find, you know, every player I've talked to about this upcoming master's just seems to be at a total. I don't know. The people are arguing about whether or not there's going to be a new T on 13. That's like guys. I know. The images are not unless they did it super secretive in the last week. Right. There's no. They said they're not only is it not going to be this year. It's not going to be for April either. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because you go on Google Earth and they're still this. They haven't done it yet. Well, I don't know how updated the Google Earth is. But but there's been planes flying over with images that show the 13th C and they show the road back there. But there is no new team there. Good. But yeah, I don't know if they're going to. Some people were throwing ideas like move the T further left. Maybe it might plant some trees down the left to prevent what Bryson might potentially do. So they do have that really don't have to move that T that much if they just use the left side of that T and what they actually have a there's a limb that has a cable tied to it. And in the practice rounds, what are the time they'll have that really tight and the limb kind of sits way more upright. And then you get there in the tournament and they've loosened it down and it sits like this a little bit. Oh my God. So if they just use a left side of that T you really now you can't take that. I mean you can I guess if you've got if you've got balls to take that on. Yeah, you can. But now it becomes almost like a hook like on 10 if they just use the left side of that T. And I'm sure that if they do move it, they'll move it 510 yards maybe and be a totally different hole. Time back lives. What other stuff you got like that? How much do you love the fact that there's no that there's no green reading books? Well, I was actually thinking of I don't do they even has there ever been one I don't think they exist. I don't think they've let anyone on on side to do it. And Bryson's like his putting stats at Augusta are far worse than anyone. Yeah, that's interesting. I didn't know. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think I don't think they should be around anyway but I love it. I don't think as especially for that place when the parts are so severe. It's almost like that's what makes the parts so hard is because it looks really severe and it's probably a two or three degree slope who really knows but the guys who do the aim point train themselves to do all that and that's fair play to them. They can they can do that but yeah, no book I like I like the idea of no greens books. Yeah, because I feel like when it would be like somebody like speed who you know hasn't hit it great over the last three years but you can show up at Augusta and kind of feel his way around it and correct me if I'm wrong on this but it feels like every year at Augusta. It's not all about precision golf swings it's not precision golf because it's such a feel place with the with the slopes the elevation changes and all of the you know the different shots that are required there it's not like just hit stock golf shots everywhere and that can help someone that maybe is not faking it but you know not not coming in swinging is definitely I think you're exactly right yet now like holes like 12 if you're two back and you get that back right pin on Sunday and it's time to try and hit one and then you did you swing it bad it's going to probably catch up to you but I mean I think everyone would sign up to be two back on Sunday you know so you but like you say this and you can use so many slopes around the greens in Augusta it is definitely precision but if you're not exactly 100% on you can you can kind of get away with it a little bit how much does the course evolve as the week goes along. I get frustrated that because everyone loves the subair talk. The year Patrick Reed allegedly won. We were in the last group with him on Saturday and it was first two days was so perfect it was firm. It was fast mark was playing good word I don't know if we're tied lead one back to back but we're in the last group and then we got a little bit of rain and the course just totally it was not marshmallows but it was so so different and it's not an excuse it's up to us to adapt but most years it goes from pretty firm and then you'll get a scoreable either Saturday and then Sunday set up for drama obviously so almost the opposite of a U.S. Open where you'll see a score early and then it gets harder and harder and harder it's get yourself in the tournament and then see what can happen on the weekend kind of deal because the subair doesn't get used nearly as much as people think it gets used right or does it have as much of an impact. Yeah, yeah, I don't think I think it helps if like it get a ton of rain the week before and you want to get it to playable. I don't think when you get rock hard and you get a little bit of drizzle and the dew points not quite right or whatever it is and just doesn't seem to suck as much of the moisture out. But yeah, I don't think it has a I mean, yeah, it has an effect if it's really wet and gets it to somewhat dry, but getting that last little bit out of it I don't think it does a whole lot. How often do you think that you get you leashes had some success at the Masters and had a really good run in 2013 which is not very well honestly until I looked it up today I didn't realize that play the par fives won over on the back and if he plays it you know obviously Scott and Cabrera birdie the 18th but if he if he birdies the par fives on the back. He'd have been right there in it. Yeah. What what I don't know what my question is related to that but how often do you think back to 2013. There's one the 11th hole there is whenever I think of Augusta is the one memory I think of that year mark made like a 25 30 footer and cause the crowd so far back they're behind the 12th T you could hear it even though I'm 20 feet from the hole I can hear it rattle around before the crowd reacts. So that's a cool memory I have from that day and then the path of thing we had six on into 13 I think we had like four on into 15. And it's what makes those par fives so good you still got to execute but he was but he was also playing the win the event he wasn't trying to just blast it over the ground on 15 and take your chance to get up and down he's like I need to make three so try to do it didn't pull it off. Do we I think we birded 13. You birded 9 and 11 on Sunday you parted 13 and bogey 15 15. Yeah. So that was yeah but I think back my memory of the leash on 15 what year was that 2018 or was that last year with the the four iron was it take us to that shot slinging hook. Yeah. We're on the left side of the 15 fairway and we'd actually talked about it maybe not that week that you but the year before because the grandstand right of the green is perfectly sit like it if that's where you want to hit it but they've got the grandstand there. So we always said if we're on the far left you could almost just hit it out on the 17th T and you're going to get your drop either side of the grandstand and then you've got a pretty easy chip not easy chip but it's these are things that guys think about he down to the pin. So sure enough we're in the left side and we got a fire line Mark does this sort of stuff in the range to where he can hit a 50 he does Baba stuff where he hits 50 yard carts and hooks doesn't really do it on the golf course but this was the perfect chance. And we're like mate if it goes straight it's fine. So I was like all right and then he hit this unbelievable looking shot but it sort of dipped in the animal. Oh that's got to go and you can see on the coverage it lands right in the upslope and takes all the heat off it and just trickles round to five feet. And then Mark always tells a story that he hit a shot and he's kind of running around to see it where it is and so that it's on land and then Tiger is well I guess I ain't fucking laying up now. He's like battling to make the card he's maybe one inside the cut line and I can't remember where he hit it but yeah that's tight. That was a great shot because I'm laying off the ground. I never heard that part of the story. That's pretty cool. So it's like playing with Tiger at a Masters. Yeah I mean it's always. I mean I said we played with him in the last round in the US opening at Pebble and I remember him walking off the first tee and it's just like no matter what happens today it's going to be a cool day because he's my golf hero. So it's hard to beat any day with him but then he's seen him play that golf course and it's time to success obviously in the way he... He does it at every golf course he hits the right or whatever the shot calls for he tries to hit it and tries to pull it off and the way he places his ball around there it's cool to watch. You guys play with him a lot. Yeah we went through a stretch there. It hasn't been as much lately but yeah we went through a stretch whatever year that was it was it was either 17 or 18 him and Tommy and then that year we just happened to get both of them at the same event but yeah it was Tommy Fleetwood and Tiger it was every other week. It doesn't seem to bother Leish playing with around that mayhem and obviously there's no crowds this year but like it doesn't that he seems to just be unflappable. Yeah I don't know if it's because he's done it so much now or but he's always kind of just thriving that his rookie year we play with Tiger in the last round of the BMW and that's what got us in the two which ammage and effectively won in the rookie the year and shot a bogey free 69 or 200 or 300 whatever it was. So yeah he's never he likes he chats to him the whole time and tries to get comfortable that way and and now they've I mean it must be 20 or 30 times I play together now so you know Tigers donated to Mark's foundation stuff for auctions and so they're somewhat friends yeah so cool doesn't bother me at all. Do you have a rule or guideline or something as a caddy that like you don't do you ever like there's certain guys you would speak to first during a round of golf and like is Tiger one of them like would you say something to Tiger during the route. No. There's almost no one that apart from him that you're not scared to talk to me just like you don't want to get in his way or upset his routine is. Yeah he's about the only one man feels kind of out there as well just you just don't want to especially at a place like Augusta it's like you're not going to walk up and say hey what's up we were saying this. So yeah but anyone else it's I guess they just don't really have that aura about him like they those two do. The FINALE story from last year's Masters is great. Came up to one seven was like hey Tiger how the kids are good. Yeah. We're not doing this right now. Do you ever watch like early coverage of a tournament to see how putts are breaking or see where guys are missing things. Yeah definitely. You can pick stuff up pretty easily on TV. He'll text me and be like do you watch out for this today. You're clearly watching some some events more than others but that one yeah and then part of it's just watching the Masters too. Being a golf not you just kind of want to watch it anyway. I think as much information you can get it's always helpful. It's up to you whether you use it or not but definitely get as much as you can. We were talking about this with Math Fitzpatrick as well but looking at the there's a data golf article that talks about experience at Augusta and how there does seem to be a true eight or ninth year 10th year of experience like guys really do perform that much better. Do you see why and what can what do you attribute that to. Probably the aura kind of where Augusta wears off at that point or maybe a little bit before that but then but just learning everything you possibly can about that play. It's no you no chance of doing that in the first even first two years. There's so much you're trying to learn and then once you do learn put it in the play and not be nervous to do it and all it's like getting up the first team hitting the appropriate shot even though you feel like the last thing you want to do is just don't top it or don't look. You can't figure out like then it becomes alright now I feel comfortable enough to actually go and try and do what I'm supposed to do rather than just get it in play. I don't remember where the to attribute this quote to originally but something along the lines of you don't read the greens at Augusta you learn them. Do you think that's inaccurate you're nodding your head as if that's accurate but you remember things more often than you do seeing it with your eyes. I think so yeah and Mark's very much like he'll come back to me after either making him and he's like had that part in the past and it did this so and ended up making it this year. Stuff like that and I think and going back to like the greens book I mean if you don't because there's no greens book you have to learn them rather than just saying oh this is 2% slow. Two inches outside level whatever you know learning them from your approach up to very valuable. Interesting more so than other golf courses I think so yeah just because there is the misses so severe or the bad misses so severe that and getting it to a position that it becomes an easy par is pretty valuable. Do you see the right to visit like do you need to move it right to left to Augusta. I think it helps a little bit. I think it's negated if you can hit it high. Okay. 10 obviously you need to 1313 there's still room to hit a little cut there if you need to it would help to hit a draw around that corner no doubt. Who's the one that always comes to mind for me. Yeah that's good and when we first started going that wasn't a big issue because you couldn't reach those bongas almost now that everyone can you kind of got to hit it left to those bongas. But if you can hit it high enough you're over the trees and you can almost fade it down there as well. 14 is one actually you do need a slight draw there because the fairway so can be the other way just to hold the fairway. So this year I think it will be soft enough that it won't really make a big difference. So you get a new yardage book when you check in every year and then you bring your old ones just to translate all the notes because I see I'm on the first hole here looking at it. And you've got a lot of numbers written down here is this just so you go day by day and say this was my number. Yeah, it looks like you have a front number and then it's like 30 paces on for number one you get that 185 you jot down what club you hit. And that's all just so you had this encyclopedia of data to work back on. Yep, exactly. And so it'll say what round we played where the wind was. I just drew an arrow don't write to south you know whatever the strength of the wind out of five always right either one or two out of five three out of five. Where it landed and then where it finished so you can work out how far they're releasing with that club. That is and you go I see some numbers here like next to some sprinkler heads where you're charting you I imagine you do some practice rounds going and checking what the actual slope yardages are. Yeah, so how far up it plays. We're in meters to so. Oh gosh, you'll see all that yardage numbers first converted to meters and then yeah up three up five from the back of the bunker. So how do you convert to meters in real time just in my head. Yeah, I've done it for so long now. They have I don't have Augusta does actually but most every other event has my meter's books. And then the guys that guys usually carry a either a chart. But we're within one every time. You know I don't know if 143 yards is exactly 130 meters, but it's no more than one. It's either 129 or 131 if it's wrong. So you get that front number you translate to meters you add you take the yardage that it's on and then you translate that to meters and then that's how you end up with your meter. All within it's all got to happen pretty quickly. Wow. All right, so T shot on one. So I'm seeing a 309 yardage carry 276 to reach those bunkers. What how do you guys get around the the the T shot on one. So like I said earlier like that didn't used to be a big deal because we could barely get I mean it's you normally into the wind that's your first thing of the day we could we normally used to be hit at maybe middle of that bunker 292 95. And now now it's you'll see a lot of three woods nowadays. It's actually gotten more narrow because like the runout left is way more in play and we can't carry that through and I'm on this so it's kind of right in the middle for us three would leave this a long way in and drive it we have to really hit a shape and. Bring on how confident you are. It seems like an uncomfortable show. Yeah, it is. That's the thing with the whole brass and talk like there's no doubt it's going to be advantage. There's just that's just how it is. Well, one of the things I wanted to do on this whole by whole is like all right you're also catting for Bryce. Yeah, what's he doing here? I see his line is going to be something that I've never even thought about. Have you played with him since he's not changed. No, I mean he's just that bunkers a nap complete after that's not even in play for him. No, I mean unless it's 50 degrees and into the wind. It feels weird to say that then it might be in play at 310. They also move you up quite a ways. I mean, we won't be hitting off the back back marker. The other thing that I guess it does that see you'll see on the bottom of the page there the T box where that red dot is where it's actually measured from compared to every other. And it's at the back of the T so a lot of time you'll see the T's up 10. But it's actually this is where it's measured from. So we'll be up 20 from the back of the T. So 10 10 so it'll be 300 ish. Yeah. And then Matt Fitzpatrick was talking about how he picked up a tip from Justin Rose. It was just like if you are in the middle of the first green you are no more than 20 feet away 20 25 feet away. Yeah, any of the putts so they play center of the green there. You guys have any particular strategy for the approach into one. No, we're the same deal. Just at the areas they can have pins. It's a big green but the areas they can have them don't. It's really quite small. The only one we don't love that play to is the front left. It's like non. It's sorry 14 on ish just because you get two or three feet past that and you can almost put it off the front of the green if you get a little rush of blood. That one's a tricky pin. Do they surprise you with pins? I mean is it pretty predictable from year over year? Pretty much. Yeah, the one that's gonna eventually they're gonna have a pin on five on that front top little section and it's seriously about seven feet. Like this around that pin you've got about three feet long three feet short three feet left or right and that's it. It's actually gonna be hard to like leave your pot up there if you don't get the pace right. That was the first hole I ever saw when I walked in. Like I walked in that gate. I was however old and just remember thinking like wait like that's the. That's what I was saying. The fits to is like I you walk that course as a fan and those golf shots look so difficult just the shape of the greens looks like I don't know what I don't know what my shot would be into that hole. And I know this isn't designed for us. But like man, the one place walking off the street that's like is so very intimidating. Yeah. And honestly the play there is just get it over that front slope and somewhere short of that bunker and then try to try to but they did have a pin on the front right there one year. What have been like 2010 or 11. It was seriously like a yard and a half on the green but 15 deep and with a five degree a five foot slope behind it. There any stop me if I don't ask a question related any any little nuggets you have on any particular holes. We don't have to go into it on one question I have to. So at the beginning of the day you pick up the whole locations sheet and then what's your what's your process look like. They usually come out and Steve Sands usually sends them to us actually like they're not before. So then you just you just go through and you put them in and that's what I was getting at early like it's up to us then to know exactly where the pin is on the green. So then I can then mark doesn't have to worry about that. But then if you're not sure about one you get you to get if you've got time you go out there earlier and just if you've wanted to you might need to see you just go straight there and you can knock it out pretty easily. And then that's the experience thing you know roughly where they're going to put the pin and then might change by yard or so but where the miss isn't when. So going down to number two now I see your your tee shot here says minus 12 meters that means is playing 12 meters down the hill. And then you guys are what's your what's your target you're aiming at that bunker with a little bit of a draw. Some years Mark spent out to carry that bunker so it's 318 cover it downhill obviously if there's any sort of help roughly at 300 you can just kind of just bomb a high one there and if that takes that out of play it's a huge advantage. And then this this does a lot to the credence of the you know the slopes on TV or you know you can't do justice to us on TV is like from the top of that hill even with that bunker it still plays 15 yards downhill to that. 15 meters almost 20 yards. 20 yards yeah yeah so I think actually the second maybe second and 18 are going to be the two holes that look the most different without fans you're going to stand at the top of the hill. And normally like there's almost like a grandstand of people they just sit on the hill that really surrounds the ground it's going to look bare this year. I'd kind of shite. As far as the wind this year have you talked to any local Augustans anything like that as far as like is it does it typically come out of the same direction or. I haven't. It will be interesting to be a lot different you know with a cooling down rather than getting warmer in the year. Is there a prevailing wind at Augusta I feel like I sure actually yeah I never really thought of it as a typical direction I think just everywhere. Is it weird to read to try to those trees really do play a huge factor in trying to read the wind out there. Yeah there's certain holes you can use like if you stand on the second green you can see seven third T you can see so like you try and do as much as that. I guess the other little nugget we have is like so 10 11 12 the T shots are all exact same direction. So when you tell you off 10 if you can remember like you get the only problem with that is you're so covered by trees that you're back there on you're in a shoot on 11 you're in a shoot on 12 you just got to really trust where the wind has been doesn't make it any easier if it starts swirling a little bit but. If you stick to that one you usually not not too far away. Interesting. So number two I'm seeing a note here I'm assuming LHS means left hand side ships will stop on and I don't know what that what's down there but. So if you miss the green left there because it's so severely sloped from your above your above the pen and chipping straight downhill but if you hit a decent chip it will stop before it goes into that bonga and then it actually becomes an uphill part so it's not that drastic. Any any particular strategies when you guys are coming into number two green from you know with say a second shot obviously it's going to depend on the pen but you know if the pins left where you guys play in way if the pins right what do you get what kind of shot you guys hitting. Yeah that that left pin depending on the number it's it's either it's super aggressive because that front left bunkers not that bad just don't be sure to the bonga or don't be left of it. But then the front left you can if you as long as you're just in the front third of the green pretty relatively easy chip or part of the hill you just don't want to be more than like three or four yards short of the green because then you kind of blocked out by the edge of that bonga. I love watching too. There's so many sprinklers. I know. My God there are so many yard just out there. Is this like the easiest one to get a number of course to get a number. Yeah you could almost carry this place with no yardage book just because they're all the front numbers so you get your pin sheet and you walk around. You need all the notes and stuff but and that's what in here on this second green you're getting three different front numbers on the sprinklers because there's three different front points because of the left quadrant the right quadrant and the very front which is very interesting. So when the pin is on the far left you could you know it's 43 yards to the front but it's 61 yards to the front left. So then you so it gives you a number saying that's five on from front left and that's how you get that. The pinch it'll say 21 on so then you've just got to make sure you've calculated from the front right and then work out where the cover is. Gotcha. That's interesting. So getting in number three. This is the hole that I think correct me if I'm wrong that the pin position is really going to dictate a lot more of your strategy off the team or so than a lot of holes on this golf course. 100% what's when are you guys sending it when are you guys laying back or what's your strategy there. Pretty much the only one we don't is the front right. It kind of vary the wind dependent if we can get it on the upslope than the front right do very doable. Most some guys like that full wedge shot into the left pins. It's just that's one you like that's the most almost the most precise you have to be on the golf course. You can hit it out the right and if there's any sort of backspin it's going to feed down that way anyway. But then you've got this super super super quick part down the hill. So go into that front right where you trying to what number are you guys trying to see. If it's into the wind and you say you can't get on that upslope. I mean you're looking at at least 90 to 100 yards which puts you right in between those bunkers. Try to get enough spin on it. Yeah you want to be able to hit a foolish enough shot so it doesn't spend too much bill so you need it to grab at the same time. And it's only four on so whatever basically your front number is about where you're trying to hit it one or two past that maybe three is such a great dividing line hole. It's like you can make a birdie if you hit two great golf shots you're making a birdie but also if you go for it and you don't you might you're probably making bogey. Exactly. Especially that left pin is true where people can separate themselves. And then it runs away past that pin into that little valley behind the green. And it should be an easy chip but it's got four feet of break on it. You get you get a little antsy with it and it doesn't get there you it's rolling back to your feet and it's a tough one to go as far as this arounds go. As far as the you know planted off the fringe or playing it here or there like you always trying to I mean Mark's relatively low ball hitter. Yeah. So when it is a little bit wet out like that probably affects you guys a lot more than other people in the field. Yeah. And the years he's played well his short game has just been phenomenal. So and I think going back to what we said if you aren't 100% on that your short game is you can definitely keep yourself in the golf tournament around this place. Is chipping easy at Augusta like relatively speaking just that grass seems so pure and there's enough there that it's not off bear lies. Yeah. You never get a bear one which is nice and it's Bermuda underneath. So it's you've got a little bit of cushion underneath. I guess it's ryegrass whatever it is on top. And also most of the time if you're missing the right spot you've got a big slope that you can work it in off so you but the into the grain factor I guess makes it difficult because you can easily just hit one two feet. Are you reading. I believe the answer to this question is there is none but are you reading grain on these greens. Now Mark does he does read. I mean it minimal he believes he's 100% believer in this grain. Because I there's so fast that it almost doesn't matter but now he definitely has a little bit of a grain. Okay. Wait like on three where are you trying to where do you not want to go on three. A right trees are obviously not a good spot but then just the if you got 50 yards if you get driving you got 50 yards in that left pin and any pin really you get that a little heavy you've got 38 yards in the next one. The back one seems like you could get like you're not trying to leave yourself a precise number to the back one because you're running shot. Exactly. Yeah you just kind of let lend that middle grain let it feed down. That's actually probably the easiest pin on the hole just because left of the grains actually not bad there either. But then and then you've missed that one right. It's cactus. Yes. That's a good hole actually it's a sneaky one. That one takes a lot of work and strategy on it. I used to think it was kind of a lame hole but the more I kind of dug into it as like yeah that's actually one of the shitload of notes for four. Yeah I'm really talking about four. It's good short par four. No it's a brute of a par three. How often are you using the do they use the two different T boxes are you up least one of the days usually. Yes. So let's say yeah one day I got 2018 here. Yeah one day I feel like last year maybe was two. It's a better hole. They need a middle T there somewhere that's two 20 front from the back and 150 from the front up to like let's have a 190 front. Yeah. It'd be nice but they don't have that on any holes. They don't have like that's where you know if you have a day this you know this fall like 11 per se and you get a cold wind back in your face they can only move that hole up to yeah 485 at the at the least I think 400 because that T is 100 yards up like that's they're not going to do that. Right. Yeah I'd love a middle T there but yeah it's funny that hole is hard even the left pinch you want to miss it left especially the front left that's 14 inch on that That pin seems so difficult. It's so hard. There's the false front's eight deep so you've got six over that which good luck if you can hit a three iron just straight out of carry it your exact number like all play to you. It's down 12 yards 10 meters but yeah that front right if you miss in that front right bonga to that pan it's the it's there's too much slope to stop it. It'll stop before it goes in that left bunker but you got 20 feet. This hole always seems to me like the green is too small for the distance you're coming in from like it just seems so difficult to anything. It's not any pin that's they're not on the top tier. Yeah it just seems I read yeah and now I can't think about this hole without thinking of Phil Mickelson in the trees to the left long left. He was trying to put it in the bunker right he was trying to put in the right. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and that's the spot to hit it to be honest. I mean those left pins the back the top left one the top right pins are really hard because you can't hit it long and then you've got it. You can't run your bunker shop up up there you got a flood up there. Talking about the sand is it remarkably consistent throughout the course. It is really good actually it's and they've got that nice firm base. I think that's why the Aussies although they've only had one winner they do well because a lot of the times you're actually you're almost aiming at bunkers. Sorry to backtrack here but I skipped over what Bryson would have done on to he's just getting it. How I guess the question is how far down the hill can he get it. Will it run is he able to get to a spot where no one else is get to and it runs. I think in April who'd be able to but and that being said I'm just assuming it's going to be a lot softer who knows but I'm sure like he's getting it down like on the crosswalk right. I mean if it was firm I'd honestly I mean the bunkers and afterthought at 318. Yeah yeah he's going to have to take it so far left but I mean the fairway slips that way he could end up with. I seven eight on in there. Yeah and that's and three is going to be interesting too because he can get there. Yeah it's just how what is his strategy going to be based on the different pins because he could get there and make five pretty easily if you're on the wrong spot. Absolutely. That's going to be interesting and then for I mean it's going to be he's hitting less iron than everyone else is hitting to that. Yeah that's the other advantage of what he's doing is just take away the draw everything else is regular shots. Yeah he's sitting seven on his father's got his four on. So I mean I got an outdated book on number five here that I'm looking at three books. I think Tron's got the twenty nineteen. Yeah I've got nineteen and just looking at the at the lines on the green like. Yeah so what's that T-Shot like now with the new T on five last year we couldn't. I mean I guess the numbers say we probably could but if you're aiming just right at that bunker you almost can't get to it. The run out of the riders it looks looks like it looks really short of place so long it's so far uphill and then obviously there's no run. So obviously completely different to what we were used to and used to be a three wood for us to kind of just shape one up the right and not quite at the bunker. So to play taking on a little bit but now it was last year was just driver. Some of the decision making came out of that hole. I think it still seems like a very uncomfortable hole. Yeah we actually end up hitting a cut there last year. Oh yeah and part of that that probably helped that's probably why it didn't go as far. I think target the same things aimed at him and cut it off him rather than aiming up the right. Have you ever been in that back bunker behind the green. Yes it's actually not a bad spot especially the back pins. They actually take those mounds out of play in the front. Yeah it's actually I mean my notes here say it's OK to all of them that they're eventually going to use a top left pin there. I guess it's kind of front ish left pin. It won't be very good to that one but the rest of them it's fine because you're actually the slope from the front of the green axis at backstop now to that to that bunker shot. It's I should well when I say that it's good for a good bunker player like like Mark's phenomenal at the bunker. You'd rather be on the green. You're not exactly what I thought it in that thing but if it trickles in there it's OK. Augusta is obviously changed a ton over the years but this whole I've always struggled on the original concept for this was the road hole. Maybe it's kind of a reverse road hole but I really don't see a road hole template at all in this in this one now. I would 100% agree. I don't have many holes that I don't love out there but it's probably one of them. I just I don't love watching this. If you design that today it'd be all right start again. Speaking of the road hole like I can't wait till I guess it'll be 2022. We'll have you back on before saying yeah. I love talking about what Bryson's going to do and probably two or three other people at that. Yeah I mean so Bryson on five what's the cover tron on the left bunkers now on off the tee on five. You're not thinking about you're not thinking about that number 313. Yes the four one. They move the bunkers to when they move the tee. I'm pretty sure they moved them left. Okay it's 279. So I got 277 so it must have been the first one and then 313 to cover the second one. Okay yeah so they must have I mean distance was probably hasn't changed much just a lot of the angle I think is. I still can't believe they moved a road to the extent of tee. I mean the Google Earth if you go to Google Earth and just like slide the timeline back further and just watch a road get moved. So a new tee could be built. It is like it is jarring. It does look like yeah we are completely up against the wall can't move it no no we move the road. Have you guys ever been completely stymied over on the left in front of that massive elephant mound. We've been in those bunkers on the green. Yeah and like had one roll back to the feet. I'm sure we have. We must. You don't write that down in the discipline. Remember when you did this. Remember when you didn't we didn't quite catch one and go remember when I gave her a bad club and we come up for a catch one. See I've always at least courses I've played a lot. I've never felt like I need to write stuff down but now I see the benefit of this of you know you have written in that back bunker OK to all especially backpins behind five. So that is just like a great visual. If you're somewhat between clubs and you see that little note it's like all right let's just favor. As long as I'm flying the bunker let's just favor that. That's great. All right on to number six downhill par three. I feel like this is one of the holes that is very the pins are set. You know what the pins are going to be on six for the first part. Half the grain they can't use basically. It's probably more than half the grain. It's a really really cool green. I mean that back left pin is really fun. It's kind of redani like you can use that slope in the middle of the green to get it back there. The front left is very bullish very attackable that back right one is very difficult. Any other notes nuggets. Just the back left if you don't I mean it'll roll back. I mean there's two or three yards on top of that. There's a flat spot up there. So most of the time it'll roll back and you might have 30 feet and that's the place to miss it if you're going to miss it. But then if you get hairy on your first part and hit it five feet past you can hit it your next one back down there. If the greens are quick that year. They're always quick but really quick that year. So it's a really sneaky tough two part but reward for hitting a good shot. Like I said that front left one pretty gettable. But not a lot of easy putts down there. I feel like I see a lot of guys hit it close there and struggle to make the putt. I guess usually play on Sunday before. What are the green speeds like Sunday to Wednesday and Wednesday to Thursday. Does it progress a lot during the week? I find the Sunday before the tournament is the most like you'll get Thursday. Okay. Saturday Sunday like past champions and members can still go out and play. So it's almost like this is as close as we're going to get it. Let's show them what it's like. And then they kind of let it go a little bit Monday Tuesday sharpening back up Wednesday. And then Thursday they get it back. Because I've heard if you play it a month in advance you are playing a totally different golf course. Different place. Yeah. We've been once before our first year there and it was nice to get like a part of the aura out of the way and all this stuff. But golf course wise it was not really. All right. On number seven. So this whole again the original. This is the one that makes me the most upset. Yeah. It used to be like 18 at St Andrews was the original. Now it is a long par four through a shoot. It could not be any more polar opposite. But this whole seems very from an outsider's perspective very devoid of strategy off the tee. I mean it's just like hit it right here. Does that kind of how you guys view it? Is it driver? Is it if the winds off the left we won't hit driver just because Mark being a fader the fairway slopes a lot left to right. So we have hit three in the past but my anyone who draws the ball is going to hit driver. And you see that next tee ups 120 yards up. So it's exactly what we're talking about earlier. If there's no chance of planning up to you. Yeah. Not that they need to there. It's a short hole but I'd love that to be a three iron wedge hole. I think that's what it was supposed to be like you said. But yeah, I mean fairway is so important. The right trees you can always chase something up in the bunkers sometimes sneak them through and the front bunkers to any sort of pin aren't that bad. Left trees it's so hard to hook. You've got a hundred yards and you're trying to hook something chase it doesn't never really works out that well. So you do think this is full board driver for Bryson though. This is the one hole is kind of like I wonder what he's going to do. Well, the only thing I see is it doesn't get any from where he's going to hit it. There's no. It's the same width all the way up. Yeah. So I mean why wouldn't he it's like he's hitting that club the straightest anyway. So this green is really cool. I think. Well and it seems like the trees up the right like if you get far enough down there up the right the trees kind of thin out. Yeah. That's what I was saying. Like see you can always not always but most of the time you can either sneak one under him. You can get one up in the air and get on the green left tree is not so much because it divides the third and the seventh there. So they're a bit more thicker and they're really cool green. That way right pin is such a hard one. You almost don't even try and get out of the Sunday pin is very accessible. Exactly. Yeah. Mark's actually made a two there to that pin. Same deal. Just hit it up past it. It's been hopefully if not it'll just roll back anyway. Back pins are tough because long is no good. You got the runoff left runoff right. And those front bunkers look to be OK to OK to the front middle. Yeah. This is so cool. Front middle pen pretty much even that front right pin they're pretty good because you just use the slope back pins. Yeah. It's OK but it's tough. You're not going to make six but you you'll be doing well to make par. So on to number eight and again this another one that is playing a very different slope than I think. I mean I think this one's pretty well highlighted on there but I'm seeing you know from the where you would be playing left of that. Of the of the bunker. Yeah. Plus 20 yards playing up the hill. Yeah. Into that hole. The bunker looks to be perfectly positioned for for you guys in terms of you gotta you gotta avoid it. Yeah. Looks to be an afterthought for Bryson as well though. Correct. What's your guess you guys hitting the cut. Yeah Mark always starts in the left there and the bunkers. Yeah you can actually hit it right the bunker and still have a shot at the green within reason. Bunkers just the only place that you can't get it on the green. Well left trees too I guess but even from the left read you're laying up some of the right trees you're laying up so far up the right that it's actually okay. You're trying to find the angle to come into that green if you're laying up on eight are you really trying to so you're looking straight down the shoot of those. Yeah. That guard it. Yes definitely especially depending on back left pens you want to get it past the front edge if you can. Like 20 30 past the front edge if you can even though you're not really going at the green. Just so you have full enough shot to spin it and then you've got all the you're heading straight downhill rather than side slopes. The opposite is that back right pen you don't want to be past the front edge. This is another hole that we walk by like I remember not being able to see the green because the mounds mounds around it. Yeah yeah especially yeah they walk I think most of the gallery goes around the the left there and so you get on the other side of the ninth tee you can't see much unless you're in the stand. Yes and such a divide I mean half hours around here I think are really good because you feel it you should birdie them all you can make six years very quickly you hit in the bunker and you'd like your next one on top you've got seven iron of a heist like a big slope to a tough green you can make six pretty quick but you should you know you need to birdie that three or four days to hang around. Eight and a couple holes of gusts that are like man there is no other golf hole that you play during the course of a year that looks anything like this. I mean is it totally blind going for that green and two another front not the front pen. Well a blind yeah blind isn't you can't see where you go on but the front pin you really don't have to hook it or draw it that much. I mean it'll help definitely but you can hit a straight one there and be fine the back left one you it's hidden hope is you're hooking it trying to land into those mounds and then see what happens. You have a certain spot on the mounds or a certain spot on a tree in the distance. Yeah and a lot of a lot of well having camera tails a lot of L because yeah as you say completely blind you're going to pick something up high to aim at and you can't see a lot of those mounds from the fairway. I feel like I don't know where I can attribute this to but I heard somebody say that Tiger goes up the slope of that he's zigzags when he walks up the slope of that fairway because of how steep it is so he's not going directly up a hill. Is that sound right? It could. Some of the back issues yeah. Yeah I mean it's it's it's a steep steep slope for sure. Maybe it's Phil when he wasn't in his good shape but supposedly somebody you get you have an impuff and when you get to the top of a Yeah yeah for sure. And then coming back down the hill on nine. I love nine. Yeah nine nine is also a whole bit I mean it used to be before there was a ton of trees in between it used to be like an option of playing up one fairway or nine because the green used to boomerang around those front bunkers and obviously that has changed a lot over the years but T-Shot you're just trying to get are you guys trying to get to the all the way to the bottom of the hill is that possible for you guys? Yeah this is one where I mean you would love to hit a draw down here but even Mark is a fade-over he hits it high enough. The trees on the left kind of overhang the fairway a little bit so you got to dodge them but he can hit a high fade down there and it's fine but yeah generally we'll run all the way down the bottom of the hill and have some sort of wedge in. It seems like an uncomfortable shot though off a down slope a little bit. Very. You kind of need to hit a draw maybe around the bunkers a little bit. Yeah especially to the anti back pin. The good part about that is you're trying to land in the middle of the green and bounce it back there. At least that's what we do. This seems like one with Bryson where he's going to hit it down past where the slope is anyway. Like he's not going to get the benefit of the downhill hole right? Well this is the hole that Spieth said. He was like he has a and I looked this up on Google Earth. I think his fairway is 630 yards wide because he could hit it. It's where the old members like practice range used to be. Yeah you're right in the middle of what is that between 18 and. Yeah between 18, 9 and 8 really. So that was crazy. I was crazy on the left there they're not in play. Yeah so he's going to have 600 yards to hit it in. And a great angle down there too. Yeah you're going to want to be down the right for sure but he's saying you could go all the way to the leaderboard on one. I guess where the fairway is. I mean you don't want to be over there. It's a bad angle but he's going to hit it and find it and those trees are not going to be an issue for him there. The slope of 9 green I think is another one that's super hard to capture and show. But that false front is extremely real. But only to a couple of pin positions right? Yeah they used two down the bottom. The hardest part about that one is actually not hitting another. You know how bad short is. But so not over correcting and hitting on the next one up because it's you can pot it. It's one of those ones where you see guys hitting at sideways and using slopes to even keep it on that right level. I'm surprised it only plays a couple yards up the hill from the bottom of that slope. It looks like plus five, plus four or something like that. Seven to the back. Yeah I guess it's more gradual. Tricky yeah tricky. Fun hole. Very fun hole. Alright back nine at Augusta which is really I mean the tournament doesn't start here until. We've basically been talking about practice rounds. Ten tee shot you mentioned this one as being the one of the two that you really do need to draw it a lot. Is it three wood for you guys? We hit three wood. You can firm use, you can hit the iron. The only thing is the fairways moan into the grain. So if you get unlucky and it doesn't quite run down there. I mean it's 250 to the start of the downslope down 25. And you need to cover more than that though. You're not just trying to hit a 250. So a 220 adjusted in the air most guys. This is one that I was thinking about is like if Bryson hit driver full bore with a draw on it. Does he have to worry about like being the only person to ever put it in that middle bunker? I don't know what is how far is it to those? I mean it would have to be like 360. Yeah 360. Definitely be worried about that bunker. Yeah somebody almost got in it last the last year or maybe the year before that it was Rory or somebody put one real close to it. But I think he had even said this is not a driver hole for him. I don't see any of these for him as a driver. I wouldn't yet. I would see him hitting an iron here before he hit a driver. This is another one that just looks like a very uncomfortable shot because you're never on it. You're not getting a flat light anywhere on number 10. A lot more flat down the left. So the more you hook it the bigger advantage you get. A bigger reward you get sorry. Tricky green if you don't get all the way down then you've got let's say if you hit it 300 yards you've got 180 front. So it's 7 iron ish 6 iron ish for some guys the back pins right being not good left left just left of the green. You can it's a pretty easy chip to most pins. Is there a certain sense though that like if you if you hit it in with the wrong shot shape and you hit it left it's going to it's going to try. Yeah if you hit any sort of draw you have to be right half the green anything on the left side of the green is going to run off. So you have definitely fade fade into that green up front that top ish right pin very sneaky bunkers not great. I feel like I see guys not put this green very well it seems weirdly hard to read. It's severely slow from back to front. Adam Scott talked about that when he won Stevie giving him an adding a cup to his ready that's hard to hit it when you think you're going to win the golf. Well you're playing good enough to be a chance to win the golf tournament you think you're reading them pretty well and you someone tells you to hit a cup higher than what you think it's going to be and end up being the rock all he made the part but. That clip is so cool because you can Stevie like looks down the ground and shaking his head and he's like I'm promising you that it breaks more than you think and he makes it. It is it's got to be hard as a I mean do you have that in you do you have that in you. I don't know if I do to be honest like just get out of the way let him I mean if that's if he just shows the right edge and you've moved him a cup tough tough on a swallow that's why Steve's got all these green jackets. His closet. 11. Gosh I gotta admit it's probably my least favorite holder watch Augusta I think it's one that's just been I don't I hate what they've done with it over the years I hate the trees down the right one where if they wanted to do something just crazy this year. Like go to the members T box and say yeah would figure it out that's the only way to negate Brosson's advantage. Yeah. Because then and because that point the water isn't in play for him by the green. Or we got a super from the back. Yeah like 70 yards. Yeah. Yeah. Because that green just doesn't seem to want like if you guys are coming in with four I don't know what you guys are usually hitting into this green. Yeah. I mean there's no reason to go at this green. In 13 you guys birdied this whole. Yeah. What do you do in 13 2013. Yeah he we it was the back left pin on Sunday market it. I mean a great shot to 25 30 feet short right of the pin and it kind of just fed down the green to pin higher. I'm sorry not been in line with the pin and then and then yeah made it but Brosson's gonna this is where he'll really separate himself from the field I guess because. Yeah like you say we're hitting if we got five four five on him we're not going. Almost at any pin is this right edge of the green and try and bounce it down. There's also the mound short right of it that you got to avoid because even if you hit that you can go down in the water. It can kick in the water. Yeah for sure that's 20 sure the green the back pin it's super hard. It's probably the easiest one but if you hit it too far trying to get pin high and you missed the green right now you're blocked out by the bunker. Chipping straight down towards the water you almost like lay up your chip there. The green right to any pins it's the place to miss it but it's super such a hardship. I feel like that middle right pin you look like you know kind of on that flat like that's almost seems like one of the tougher ones because you've got you've got the mound so close there and then. I don't know this might be just the way I say it but when there's water left and there's a right pin. Those are the hard pin yes because you're not going to aim at the water. We talked about this with Max. For an amateur it's the opposite and the pin is close to the water is terrifying. You just miss out to the right but when the when the pros don't have a place that they can bail then that is the ones where super super comfortable. So you'd like picking like the island green at Sawgrass when the pins on the right there you've got 20 yards left of it that with a wedge is not that hard of a shot but you put it. It's a wedge anyway so you should almost always hit that green but you're not going to miss it right at that pin and to get it close you've got to take it on that's so this hot those right pins on 11 is super super hard. Yeah, God it's such a such a hard. Probably the same philosophy for 12 and two right where yeah we almost it would be situational to really go at that back right pin. What's the difference between two t boxes is it really do they do is it Sunday t box the same every year is it do they. I guess they do they line up the pins with the different t boxes they don't feel like I ever hear that discussed on the telephone. No, no, no, no, actually not sure if there's a reason they use that could be we don't we don't I don't play any different they're the same they're pretty much the same t box for us. Have you guys gone in the water there before. I'm sure I don't know he's banished it from his memory. I've deleted it. Yeah, 13 was really cool. When Mark made that birdie on 11 he's obviously jacked up crowds going nuts. I think he hit wedge it was like the back right pin obviously but we weren't going taking on probably more than we should have but he hit a wedge it was like 160 yards is that jacked up and hit a wedge like 20 feet great shot. And seems to play pretty short that hole and then we always use the the wind from 1011 t shots to even if it is bouncing around a little bit kind of forget about it and trust it. Are there pins you are going at we know it's not the back right one but are there pins you guys are attacking. Yeah, I think the left ones and left and then the one over the middle of the bunkers I think very gettable you might as well go at them because it's not a great bail out. And you aren't do you notice the wind swirling down there like people say it does. It definitely does. Yeah, I mean, yeah, you've you almost rather be up when you're hitting because then at least if it dies you're probably going to be long. It's not that it's a great miss over there either but you shouldn't make five or six from over there. But yeah, as I said, we kind of just trust our compass what we've been going on doesn't make it that much easier but yeah definitely swells a little bit. You do you carry an actual compass with you. I don't know. Okay, I guess they're probably my older books now but you just during the week I just check every what they've got compass they got in the book and I'll circle them and give them a tick if they're correct. The one on the second actually is always the whole hole is on one page of the Yardage book so they've got one compass so you need to turn you get so I was just right it's like south south west direction stuff like that. Interesting, because I think I'm guessing the myth or whatever the legend around the wind on 12 has to come when the wind is in in your face that you wouldn't feel it as much because the trees behind the green are blocking you a little bit. Yes, I would get that and then probably to get to you probably comes up 11 ish and you'd also feel it coming up 13. Okay, 13 now to 13. What what is your guys line shot shape target and what the whole limb thing. I know I'll take it. I'll try to sneak a photo when I'm out there next week and send it to you just to make sure it's definitely there and we it's a three word for us trying to turn it over somewhere near that corner the 290 run out at the corner leaves you 175 yards front so that's where we're trying to hit it. It's kind of demoralizing when you see guys just bomb it straight over there and we're almost hitting it into the most narrow as part of the fairway but the theory for us is if it doesn't if it's not perfect and we don't have a good number which lay up. Take a big number out of it and you are you trying to get it to the flatter part of the fairway down the left side. Yeah, and that's where we were in 13 actually market a great t-shirt we had six on off the flat. I need to look up where he hit it on a camera where he hit it. Well and that's where you know not to I don't want to deter this conversation into the distance debate but that exact thing is like what this shot at 13 is supposed to be is not supposed to be a bomb driver over the corner of it. It is supposed to be hey if you want to hit it really close to the hazard you're going to be rewarded with a flatter line if you bail your lie is going to be more awkward and the second shot is so much more difficult and to for the game not to have that balance on one of the greatest holes ever is really really sad. I think and so with that in mind what is your take if you're counting for Bryson and the trees let's just say the trees look exactly like they have over the years. What's your play. I mean there's no as hard as it is I don't think it's in the spirit of the game it's not the wrong thing to but you take every advantage you can get. Oh yeah for sure. The line he's going to have to hit it so far left though it's the line that I've never really looked at that much. He said he's just playing into 14 fairway and that seems to be the widest area of fairway and that wouldn't be the far left of where we're trying to hit it. That's kind of like that's probably 10 yards left of where Mark's trying to hit it and that would make the most sense. There's no point taking on I mean he's going to have probably a non on a origin. Are you guys aiming at those two trees like those two trees right there and they act from the T they look a long way right. It's actually whilst in the narrowest part of the fairway it gives you almost gives you a bit of a other as long as I get it to there we're OK and we've got an iron in. Feed to the left. Feed to the left. I won't get on the flat from that spot. You're going to be left to that but not as visually as intimidating as some can be. And then for laying up like what are you what are you looking for there. Depending upon where the pen is and then honestly like you see so many guys hit it or not hit it up the right enough. You've almost got to move the crowd or at least pre-worn on that you're going to hit it up there because that's the flutter spot and the best angle for the distance. You don't want 60 yards you want at least 100 or 90. So we I try and get Mark to hit it as far up the right as possible except for like those back that back right pin. And even the back left one you can you can bounce it up there. Have you physically moved the crowd before it was like you get up the top of the hill and like hey we're coming this way. Yeah like you're not going to move 500 people but yeah. What for the second shot if you guys are going for it is it just like we just want this ball in the center of the green. Yeah. Any like anything you guys have picked up over the years on that on that shot it seems like such a critical shot in everyone's round. But seems like everyone's got kind of a different way of playing it strategizing it. Are you just going to go ahead and hit a draw with the slope. Are you trying to fade it off of it. Yeah it really sets up for a fade. Mark kind of gets worried that if he if he starts it too far right it's just not going to move that much. And you kind of got a short enough club in that I could be easier to hook a three iron but wouldn't be easy to hold the green. But you can shape them a lot easier. Six irons it's kind of a little harder and he doesn't love starting to add trouble anyway. You'd rather start it in the clear and and work it towards trouble. But I mean perfect par five for if for most people it's a great great golf ball. You should go for it every time. If you lay up every day you've knocked you're not going to have much trouble. If you hit a decent word you get a good look. What do you think is the tougher pen there that front pen or the one like way on that you know back mound there. Back mound probably has a lot more pause because it's really you really need to get it's three out of four days you need to get that one. But the back left actually probably might have more two angles to weird chipping from long left of that green that little gutter that's that left side of there. It's uncomfortable. It's very uncomfortable. Yeah. The middle that front front is to middle left pen is sneaky especially for the wedge shot kind of a small little flat area to hit it on. If you hit the six iron and then you need to get that hole on the 14 I see do not miss T shot left ever ever. We've hit it over there a couple of times and had no better than five. I don't believe as yeah the whole green slopes that way so you can never you can never get it anywhere near the least from the right trees you're hitting into the slope and you could control it somewhat. This is the hole you're trying to get though. This is a birdie hole. Yeah with with this green I mean apart from the ridiculous false front everything kind of feeds towards each pan the drawing in here the false front is literally half the front. The entire front half the greens unusable. So it's a tiny green like as usable pins. I remember the first time we ever went there. Jeff before Mark's rookie masters I guess it is Jeff Ogilvy said I'll give you a hundred bucks. He dropped the ball on the left edge of the green so if you can keep it short of whatever pin it was middle and mark part of it almost off the right edge of the green. It's just that's just such a severe slope which so we hit the approach right in there you use that you just don't want to miss it to the left side. How year over year we know what the Sunday pins are for I'd say you know what let's say 14 of the 18 holes we know pretty much where they're going to be. How different is the location year over year like it's in the same general area do they move at a foot is it five feet is it in the exact same spot do you have any any. Yeah I think that can make a big difference. Yeah no more than a yard I wouldn't think unless it's like a brand new pan obviously but. Like the eighth I'm sure like the 18th I'm sure that doesn't move more than one or two feet yeah maybe two feet would be a lot I would think. Holes like this one on 14 they use that just over the slope just over that false front that's diabolical pin. Especially if the winds down. Yeah you can't get near it. This is one too that looks like you know once you get past that three twenty three thirty it starts to kind of widen back up. This is another one that Bryson yeah Bryson will have more of an advantage because it's going to be wider where he's. Yeah we hit three wood off this T2 just because the fairway slopes pretty severely left to right he won't have to deal with that who we hit over that little ridge corner. And then 15 driver full board driver for you guys have I guess is this is this a difficult tee shot it seems to me like guys are having a lot of trouble with this tee shot ever since they put the trees down in down the right side. Yeah it seems like a tougher tee shot than maybe people realize it back home. Yeah it's not it is for us it's okay because we can start at those trees and mark and just fade it off them but and he can't reach the run out trees you don't want to get too close or else you have to hit that hook shot again. I would do it again that was the best theater I remember from that massive. Yeah I mean it's such a big reward if you get at the right spot you're hitting an eight on nine and so we go full board driver. This plays a few meters down downhill as well as it is it any other nuggets on that on that approach out of like hey we can't be it carries a little further here or get into the adrenaline part of a round I assume. Yeah definitely. I mean it's such a no it's not easy just to buy that over the back like honestly like that back left water on 16s in play if you just be blasting one straight over there. It's such a tough chip from over there that's why we hit in the water on 13 but mark was trying to make three to win the contend in the tournament and come up short and roll back in the water. But I'd much rather than do that trying to make three than hitting an extra club straight over and then chipping it down and making five and not it would have helped us sure but we're not winning the tournament doing that way so. And the best way to lay up is down the left side of the side. Yeah you gotta be careful of those trees who was it last year that on our clip them. Yeah you gotta be careful of those but it's so much flatter. It's it's probably the wettest part of the golf course down there so it's like didn't even react. Yeah I totally didn't know that it hit the tree and that's how it ended up going in the water going back to Bryson like this is one for me that like this one feels like it might actually be tougher for him with driver. Potentially yeah but he could hit through it or he could if he hits one of the fairway. Because it does narrow up so much better. Yeah he's definitely gonna be hitting in that narrow area. He might actually get it in those trees where he's far enough in them that the limbs don't start to 15 yards up on those things anyway so he might be okay. Geez I didn't think about that. You're getting so close to the tree. So it's narrow in theory but not really proactive. Fairway wise yeah. Yeah. Because you can manufacture shots from that left side too. Yeah so I mean not ideal obviously but from 150 yards. I'm assuming that long on 15 is better for certain pins. Are there certain ones that are just like. So if way left pin longs okay it's just such you kind of like bumping it into the short into the fringe and letting it trickle down. If you just get a bad bounce off there it's in the water but it's the only place to miss it. You're not gonna you shouldn't flirt with missing it long. That's another short. Another approach that I look at. There's a crosswalk there so like fans can go out and stand in 15 fairway. And that looks like an island green. And dudes are just dropping four irons into it. It's like an infinity green. I know and I know these guys are good and I know all that but that's the shot. The ease at which guys are able to just drop. Get the number right I should say. Honestly that's the heart. That's probably the one I've had the most trouble with getting the right club or both of us have getting the right club in Mark's hand. Because I mean and then you see on the highlights Tiger hitting these shots to three fourths. Not just Tiger but you know the ones contending and they get it like I said they get it right and it's four iron or a fire line. And it's so hard to get it that you have to land it exactly within two or three yards of your number. On that one that you play the slinging hook around the tree how much how are you judging that distance. Like how much are you factoring in the you know the deal off. Yeah what we did well yeah we use the front number. Mark's not a fire lines about 194 and 195 meters and that was what we had the front. So we knew as long as it got further than which with the hook it should we were going to be OK. If it went dead straight it was going to cover everything we needed to. But then as I said it started like dipping down the hill and I got the heart right up a little bit. And but the front of that green killed it nicely. Then on to 16 so we talked a little bit about this one earlier about you know plays a little shorter than for whatever reason that might be. But any other that that front right pin looks so difficult. And it's kind of boring to watch because everyone ends up down the left. Actually that front bunker and just right of the greens not bad to that pin either. You just don't want to be past pin high to that pin because then you end up with a up the slope. But then once it gets on top it's going severely right and then downhill at least from short of it. You just go uphill the whole way. Yeah tricky green the right pin that top wall at least it's top right. That Sunday pin also just looks very difficult to put to. From anywhere that's not sure right. And even the even the three four footers above the holes to that Sunday pin is sneaky hard. How real is the proximity of all of these holes. You know you guys have been there coming down the stretch competing for a master's like you can. It has to be impossible to avoid what's happening in other parts of the course. Yeah. And that's what will be weird about this play. I mean you'll see obviously with the scoreboards but you just kind of know the rules. And you know what's a I guess you think you know what's a birdie role depending who it's from. What's a Eagle role. What's a pass save. You know what's a good shot what hasn't been hold yet. I don't yeah 17 I imagine driver for you guys it just again seems to be these tree lined holes both sides is just pretty much there's not like a. There's just no wide part to hit it to. So there's no point hitting less. There's a overhanging branch 50 yards of that to you that's perfectly in Mark's eye line for a fader. One question I got going back to 16 you've got a note in here round two. It says jacked up. That would have been a well probably that we would. It's 20 that's you got 2019. Okay so we must have something must happen on 15 we either made three or seven. So he roasts he would have roasted one. Yeah. And how much are you factoring that in as you're playing like Saturday Sunday. Like what is what is jacked up. Is that an extra of five meters. Yeah well at that point it's just I'll just say look Mark this is what we hit yesterday but you were pumped and like and then he can. Work out how either hard or how he was feeling relative to that day when he's over it but just like just more information and then up to ask the processor but. Yeah. Can I check that out. Because he hits his short on really far anyway. Oh this is from 18th so this would have been after he made the eagle and he hit nine nine one hundred and sixty five yards. Okay. Dang that's cool. Do you guys ever like far off on clubs. As in many mark making. Yeah like having very rarely. Yeah the thing for like much so mark were up in the wind and he traps almost the lofts and traps ball lot. His short irons can go silly distances so that's where we kind of and at the end of the day then he'll be he's the one to decide like I can always say mate that you can get wedge there. I've seen you hit it this far before but if he's not feeling it then he'll just go to the soft nine or whatever but now we're never that far away. It's 17 there isn't a doesn't seem to be a ton of ton of strategy with this one just seems like a kind of just a difficult golf ball. Yeah hard just narrow. So important to be on the fairway. That back left pin plays so short especially downwind and then the into the wind that right cover plays long just because there's enough. It's almost like a second false front over there too. So that you've got 10 basically 10 to carry the bunker and then another six over the false front so you're looking at 16 over halfway into the green at that point. I think I've seen some uncomfortable chips from down that front right. Yeah and then long left is you much rather be front right. Do you agree with Neil's contention that this is stinky Nandina. He's always shitting on this all. There's not much I mean for yeah there's not much going on with it for everything else that's going on the holes around it. It's just kind of like a bird probably not a bad thing. You don't I don't know. It's almost I want too much every birdie will go a long way here but he's going to hurt you. I'm always fascinated when I go like you know back by 18 T or back on 17 green like it's how exposed that little knob is that that 17. Yeah that is that raw sort of 17 greens. Yeah there's nothing around you. Yeah then going to 18 the on TV certainly looks like a shoot. Does it feel like a claustrophobic shoot. Yes. There's some limbs in the way for you guys as well. Good thing that that first left bunker is you can get on the green comfortably from there. So Mark's always aiming at that working it off it. Half a club up from the fairway it looks like it's a yes. I mean that's where like the laser and everything will say whatever it is 1214 but it just doesn't seem to play that much so we always just go half a club because we end up adding too much and then you always pass the pin there with the super downhill part. So we just we went back to half a club. I don't feel like I ever see. Yeah I don't know that's interesting. I don't feel like I see guys posing on shots on 18 that come up short. No it always does. It's always past it. Yeah. So it just doesn't seem to play it's full up there. Now is the time to visit Pinehurst resort as the cradle of American golf pinehurst is more than the fame number two and anchor site of the US Open it is Tom Doke's masterful number 10 for historic hotels and newly built luxury cottages at Pinehurst eight. The one of a kind title of shop at Pinehurst and the new Peter Millar shop a trio of dynamic dining experiences in station twenty one plate and the upcoming wiregrass pinehurst blends timeless charm with the very best in the game today visit pinehurst dot com to plan your stay next interview is a twenty twenty two interview with John Wood that we did ahead of the masters back then reheating this one some great stories and insight from John as well. Enjoy. How many times have you cattyed in the masters and is it weird to to not be going back back home as many people say come April this year. Always weird when you're not at the masters. I probably work I'm going to say 20 times there for a variety of different players and you know it's probably my favorite event to work but I'll be watching at home from from from the couch this year like everybody else so that'll that'll have an appeal to it as well I'm sure. I didn't mean to bring up a bit a sore subject. Not at all. Not at all. Your answer cannot be TV doesn't do justice to the elevation change. All right we know that one but what's something that people at home probably don't know about Augusta National the masters or that golf course in particular. Let's see. Okay. The tournament practice facilities which is top three in the world are is used. I think 10 days out of the year. Total for the jamboree and for the master's tournament the rest of the year they use the members range. So that magnificent practice ground sits there most of the year unused. I think what people don't realize that Augusta is how if you get a firm and fast week how precise you have to be with your iron shots is way more than any other tournament we play. So obviously Saturday Sunday gets gets pretty tough. But in Augusta you're sitting there a lot of times like 15 is a great example 12 is a great example where you can do everything right as a caddy and the player can do everything right everything you plan for and the Linus. To me, it's just it's the funnest place to catch it because that there's such a fine line between a shot that works out, a shot that doesn't, especially if it gets firm and fast. I was going to say something along those lines to try to sound smart later on when you talked about specific holes, but one that came to mind for me that maybe isn't, you know, top of mind for a lot of people is the sixth hole where, you know, there's some funnel pins on that hole. You know, if you get front left, you can use some slopes and get to it. But when they put that pin up on the right, I feel like that is about as good of an example at Augusta of like a marginal shot straight up not going to cut it today. Right? There's almost no way to hit it to 30 feet to the top right pin on six. You're either inside 20 feet or it's taking the slope and rolling 45, 50, 60 feet away, if you will. Does that, is that kind of in line with what you're talking about in terms of the level of precision needed just means like the marginal shot is going to get rejected in so many places more so than other golf courses? Yeah, exactly. Like I said, on 12 and 15, six is a great example of that back right like you talked about. There's just no bail on it. You know, you got to sit there and go, I'm taking it on. I got to, you know, try and hit this within 15 feet. Well, just long is not bad, but it's funny from a difference between a yard over that green and three yards over that green is completely different shots. Well, yard over is pretty easy. Three yards over is not. So it's that kind of fine, you know, fine precision on that course that really differentiates it from anything else. I never see guys chip or I'm sorry, I never see guys really putt from off the green at Augusta. On TV, it looks like, hey, well, that looks like a very easy putt. Why do we not see that usually? Is it have something to do with the overseas and kind of the speed at which you're, you know, you need the ball rolling when it gets on the green? What's your insight on that? A couple of things. One, it's a really good question. I can't remember exactly how many years ago, but let's say 10 years ago, there was a masters where everybody was putting from just off the surfaces. The chipping areas were cut really tight. They were smooth. You could putt it and people were getting away with it. The following year, Augusta said, no, you know, we want people to have to chip. We don't want you to be able to just putt from these areas. You're going to have to chip. So what they did was they grew those chipping areas a little bit longer and grew it into you. So they mow it into your stroke. So if you putt, the ball just sticks immediately and pops up and there's no consistency to it. So that's why you see most people chipping from around the greens. The other thing is spin. A lot of these whole locations, if you miss it in the wrong place and you putt it, there's no way coming off the slope you're coming. It's going to stop. But if you can hit those little tiny, I'm talking 10, 15 foot chip shots with a tiny bit of check on them, it will slow it down enough on those slopes and enough for the ball to settle near the hole. So you get rid of part of the slope by chipping it to the middle of it or even to the bottom of it. And then that little bit of check slows it down. So I think there's two reasons. They mow it into you and it's a little bit longer and you need spin around those greens to really control your ball. And also, I think I feel like contributing to that is it looks like easy grass to chip off of. If there is easy grass, it's not, you know, grainy Bermuda where you got to really worry about precise contact or, you know, really tight lies that, you know, could promote some skanky little chips. Does that seem accurate? Absolutely. The actual contact with the ball is not difficult at Augusta because it is. It's nice, but executing the exact right shot is difficult. What is it like year to year? I mean, you're talking about one year, it's tight. The next year, they didn't like it and they changed that. Is it, I mean, is there a lot of stuff that people don't know about at home in terms of little changes that are made, somewhat dramatic changes that don't show up on television? Do you are notified of changes going into the next year? There's, you know, it's the most tinkered with golf course probably in the history of the game. What's your perspective on that? You know, occasionally you're notified of them. Somebody gets an aerial shot or you're hearing rumors, they've moved this bunker a little bit that way. But to me, and I think bones would agree with this. We used to walk the course all the time together. You'd show up at Augusta and you'd be walking the golf course and you'd look at a bunker and go, I swear that's a yard and a half out further from where it was last year. Or I swear this slope is just a tiny bit steeper than it was the year before. So these tiny little subtle changes that they really don't make public. And there's no reason to really, every year they change the course just slightly. So you really got to do your homework there, you know, Monday Tuesday, make sure that your old numbers, your old yardage book, your old notes is still working. So yeah, they do make these little tiny, imperceptible almost changes. But the fire is the funny thing, Solly. Every time you go to Augusta, you think, this is perfect. They've done everything perfect. Don't change anything. The course is great. Everything's perfect. And then you show up the next year, and there's two or three tweaks and you go, Yeah, that's better. That's better. You know, they just don't miss anything. They're so meticulous with their course and everything about their turn really that just nothing like it. What's it like walking Augusta with bones? You know, somebody that's one, one, three, been on the bag for three masters victories. What do you glean from him? Does he give much away to other caddies? You know, we talk for about 10 years in a row, bones, Joe, myself and Fluff rented a house together, walking distance from the driving range. So, you know, we'd sit at home and you know, during the day and during the week and say, Hey, did you see this? Did you check this out? Have you shot this one yet and just kind of go back and forth all of us really on the course. And caddies do share info for sure, especially if you're friendly like we were. You know, we don't get into too much of what's happened in the past. It's more so looking towards the future. So it is, you know, one of the greatest tournaments, probably the greatest tournament in the world. But in terms of our homework and our walking around Augusta, it would be the same as any other course really just kind of going back and forth on things. I've heard it both ways. And I don't even know what to believe anymore on this here. You know, it's always been a thing that you need a right to left shot at Augusta. And then I hear things like it's kind of being overdramatized. What's your experience around that place? Tell you about that. No, I think that's completely overdramatized. I mean, honestly, if you look at the two biggest Masters champions ever, Jack cut it and Tiger mostly hits cuts. Are there a few shots where, yes, you do need to draw it? Absolutely. 13 around the corner, 14, it helps. You know, when I was going up, I always heard the same thing. You had to draw it around there. You had to hit it right to left. I don't see that anymore. I think more so you have to hit it high. You have to be able to control your distances. That to me is the two most important things. Putting is obviously difficult around there, but hitting your numbers with everything from your wedges through four iron is to me the most important thing and having some height to it. So they will land and stop. We joked earlier about, you know, the everyone saying that the TV doesn't do justice to the elevation change, but what I think doesn't maybe necessarily translate that well to viewers at home that, you know, haven't been there and walked it. The uphill and downhill lies to me is what like the first hole I ever watched at Augusta was KJ Choi hitting a shot from the down slope on the ninth hole to an elevated green. I was like, oh my God, I would hit this backwards with a shank if I had to hit it. It's so difficult. It just doesn't, at that level, do the lies have that much of an effect on precision or are they that good at adapting to stuff like that that it doesn't affect them maybe as much as it does us? Oh no, the lies are a huge thing around there. I mean, there are obviously, there's a few holes where you get a flat eye, but not many and like 10 and you're always balls, you know, you got a down slope on 10 hitting to a green that kind of sits up a little bit. 13 that balls way above your feet and you're looking at it and you want to hit a cut, but you're really not comfortable doing it because the slope is so severe. You know, the right to left 18 straight up the hill. Yeah, almost every shot has some sort of level that you're going to need to deal with in terms of hitting your approach shot. Did your players, and I guess I should have started with this, I guess, to tell listeners kind of who you've cattyed for at Augusta and did your players ever try to hit cuts off that slope on the 13th hole? It is very obvious that that could be the shot, but how do you hit a cut off the ball above your feet? Do people tend to just trust the draw? What's a two-part question there, but what are your thoughts on that? I think for most part, I mean, when I worked for Calc Dare, he had a cut, but he cuts every single shot. But for the most part, I think most guys, no matter where the pin is, try and hit it in the dead center of that green. You know, it's a fairly simple two-putt to all the pins from there. The one thing about that shot for some reason, and going along with Bones' shot on 16 was 13 always plays long. You can sit there and be between clubs and you think, boy, I should be able to land this five iron, six iron, 10, 12 yards onto this green, and then you pure it and it barely covers. So that's another one that I don't, I can't figure out why it does, but it always plays, you know, five to eight yards longer. And, you know, I think I realized it one year when I thought, I don't think I've ever seen anybody hit it over this green. I've seen people hit the left in two, but I've never seen anybody hit it into those back bunkers over the green. That's when I kind of realized, you know, this shot always plays so long and you're thinking use that slope or think it's going to carry 10 to 15 yards on and it just never does. Yeah, I'm thinking about why that may be. I'm wondering if it's a little bit downhill lie, I guess, with the ball above your feet as well or I think the thing I can think of is you've got the ball above your feet and kind of forces you to draw and it kind of forces the ball down a little bit instead of cutting it where it gets that back spin. That's the only thing I've ever really been able to think of, but it's one of the mysteries of Augusta National. Who else have you cat-ed for at Augusta and kind of what have been some of your some of your best runs at the Masters? Kevin Sutherland, Mark Calcovacchia, Viennese Zhang, first Chinese player, sort of every player at Augusta, Hunter Mayhan and Matt Kutcher. So those five guys, I've had a handful of top fives, you know, or had a look on, had a good feeling on the back nine that it could happen. Never was able to finish one off, but you know, just being on the back nine at Augusta in any of those last five to seven groups, there's nothing like it in golf. You hear the roars and you, you know, it's almost cliche at this point, but they are different there and you can kind of gauge exactly what's happened by the sound of the roar, who it is, what they did, just knowing where the tee times are. It's quite unique that way. Does anything change for a cat-y in terms of advice that you give when you're on the back nine at some more like Augusta and at the Masters in terms of, you know, are you more likely to give a pump up speech or a calm down speech? Are you factoring in adrenaline with any yardages? I mean, obviously with club selection, you might, but are you fudging some numbers maybe at any point? What's it like? Are you feeling nervous and pressure as a cat-y coming down the stretch of the Masters? Absolutely. No question about it. And you want to really. I mean, you don't want to show your player, but you want to feel those butterflies. You want to, it kind of heightens all your senses. And I think you can, I think it actually brings out the best in you if you're, if you're a really good cat-y or you think you're a good cat-y and have some confidence out there because it, a Masters win to a cat-y is huge. A Masters win to a player changes your life, changes your career, changes everything. So, you know, you know, your player is on edge already. There's some truths to the Masters beginning on a back nine on Sunday. All you want to do is get yourself in some sort of position. And then you've got different game plans for that back nine. If you're in the lead, if you're way behind, if you're slightly behind, you know, if you get to that 10th tee and you're four behind, you know, you got to step on the pedal. There's no backing off at this point. Whereas if you've got a one or two shot lead, you've got some question mark. What, how do we do this? Am I going to go for it if we have a chance? Are we going to lay it up for sure? So, there's different mindset, different game plans for different positions that you're in coming down that stretch. You've seen the cycles, you know, of pro golf in terms of, of course through the season. I'm trying to figure out how to ask this, but I'm amazed by the people like the Louis Ustazens and Brooks Kepke's come to mind in terms of, it feels like when they want to play their best golf the most, then the events they want to play the best, they rise to the occasion. And that feels, it's like with recent years, it feels the opposite with someone like Rory just for, as an example, right? And yet everyone wants it the same level. Everyone wants it at an uncontrollable amount. What is your insight into how guys are able to peek when they want to peek and get their best golf at the times that are the most important? And again, I, I think I'll view this through my own lens of like every, every very important round to me seems to go very poorly because of expectations at the highest level. Why is that, you know, how, how are, how are people able to manage that? It's just, it's a great question. And boy, if I knew the, the honest answer, I think I'd make a million bucks tomorrow, but it's winning a Masters or US Open and Open Championship, PGA, it just feels different because of how everybody else reacts around you. I see a lot of guys completely change their routines the week of the Masters. And I don't get that honestly. I, I know a number of player mind, you know, wanting to change his routine and play on Monday, play on Tuesday, play on Wednesday, I'd go, look, if this is the way to prepare, why don't you do it every week? Because the guys who change their routines, I think are immediately in trouble there because you're already making it bigger than, than, than a normal week and it is bigger, but you want to prepare the exact same way. I think Tiger is the best example of that. I mean, Tiger, when he does plays is almost first tee off every day, plays his practice around, plays nine holes, practices and gets out of there. He's not there all day long. And here's the thing, when it's your first Masters or second Masters or third Masters, you want to stay there all day long. The practice facilities are so great. The patrons are great. The food's great. And it's, why go back to your room? It's fantastic here. So it's attractive to want to over practice and over prepare. And you don't realize you've over prepared until Thursday or Friday when your energy level is nothing. So I think that's, that's what some of the veterans or guys who have won it before really take the heart. How do you see pressure manifest itself either in your players or other players that you're playing with in major championships? Do you see routine changes? Do you see how can you sense when a player is nervous or maybe behaving differently than they, than they should or would normally behave on a golf course? A lot of it is tempo, not in tempo of your swing, but in tempo of the routine or how fast and slow you're walking. How fast does it normally get you, take you to get through a decision? Like if I'm giving Hunter mayhem, you know, we get to 14 and I say Hunter, you got 142 front, 166 total. You need to carry this 58 to get it up top. And at that point, unless it's really, really windy, you know, Hunter would have a good idea of one who he wanted to hit. But if you see players slowing that down and almost being quiet at that point and their mind's really thinking, that's when you can tell, okay, he's out of sorts a little bit. We need to back into our normal routine. And sometimes you lead him a little bit and say, you know, at that point, you say, it's a perfect eight iron, just hit a full one and let's go. And you can see the opposite as well. Somebody speeds everything up, reads, reading on the greens. You want to, you almost get the sense that some people want to get some putts over with because they're tough putts or because it's just the situation. So if you see a guy walking faster, talking faster, reading greens faster, that's also a sign that you kind of try and reel them in and get them back into his normal flow of things. If he's changed something and you've noticed that and he's playing great, you don't say anything. But if you've noticed the change in his behavior, how much he's talking, what he's talking about, the pace of anything, that's when you try and just notice it. You don't want to panic. I mean, you just want to almost do it secretly. Like you start walking slower or you start walking faster. You start talking more, talking less, slowing things down, speeding things up, just so he kind of comes with you. And you don't have to talk about it. You just try and lead him a little bit that way. Tell me about putting at Augusta. This may sound like a very ridiculous statement for a long, long, long time. I've always thought putting at Augusta looks especially hard. And I'm starting to maybe think less and less like that. I feel like you can make mid-range putts out there. Short putts aren't maybe a little bit more challenging, a little more slope around them than they're used to seeing on normal tour stops. I should stop talking here and ask you. Just tell me about putting at Augusta. What is maybe it different than normal weeks on tour? Normal weeks on tour, if you put your ball in the wrong place, you can probably still get out of there with a two putt, honestly. It's just not that fast. They're not big of slopes. You put it in the wrong place and say, okay, I can just two putt this and get out of here. At Augusta, if you put it in the wrong place, you're trying to figure out any possible way to have a close second putt. And a lot of times, if you put it in the wrong place, you don't have a chance. You're going to have a 10 to 12 footer coming back. That being said, if you do put it in the right place, I think it's one of the best places to make putts in the world. A, because they're perfect. The surfaces are absolutely perfect. But B, because you've watched this tournament your whole life. It's the same whole locations pretty much. There's slight changes here and there to the greens, but you've watched this tournament on TV or in person your entire life and you've seen these putts. You know the putt up to the right poles on 16 is extremely slow. You know that putt, like we're talking about that upper right pole location on six. It's so hard to get it there. And if you don't, down to the left, you know you've got to hit the heck out of that putt to get it up top. But it's also a place, I think, that the practice rounds are made easier in the fact that you have seen it so many times and you know what putts you're going to have. You know where you're going to want to leave it to this hole. You know where you're going to want to leave it to this hole. And I think you can practice the putts you know you're going to have more to gust them maybe than some other places. And that's what makes it so fun as a fan is I feel like I even know as a fan like, all right, the putt on 16 to the Sunday pin from short right, it breaks more than it looks like. I absolutely right. You see enough guys hit that putt. And even if you end up left of that pin and you're putting you had the left to right or again, I feel like I've seen guys miss that putt low all the time under pressure and the putt on 18. What's your read on the putt on 18 to the Sunday pin from the right that almost everyone has either for the win or for the tie is does it putt break? I've heard it. Does it straighter than you think? Does it break more? The putt that Phil made? No, so Phil was behind the hole, but I feel like Adam Scott's putt. Kepka had a chance there a couple years ago. It's so speed related there. If you're dying it at the hole, it really wants to break across the hole fast. But if it's got a foot or two of speed on it, it tends to want to stay really straight. It almost feels like there's no in between there. It either breaks hard or goes straight and you just got to match your read and your speed up perfectly to make that putt. How do you caddy for the 12th hole? How the hell do you do it? I know it's a different shot. There's basically three general areas where they could pin it front left, middle, middle and back right. How does it change based on where the pin is and then what do you tell your guy? Obviously, do your normal things first. Get the numbers, get the carries, get to where you want the ball to land. That's the person you're figuring out. You're honestly thinking about that hole coming into it for a couple holes as a caddy, just trying to make sure you're going to know what the wind's doing there and what you're going to tell your player. The biggest mistakes guys make is indecision. If you are decisive and confident about a club, you're not going to be that far off most likely. I think most mistakes come when indecision is there. And it's a caddy. That's the last thing you want to do is hem and ha and go back and forth to your player about, ah, well the wind should be doing this, but man it feels like this. And boy, look at the pin on 11. It's doing something different. You've just clouded his head up completely. So you want to get it in your head. What you're going to tell him? What do you think that wind's doing? And immediately you've got to come back with mostly right to left, a little bit of hurt. Or there's a lot of help out there and we're not feeling it because of the patrons right behind the T-box. You really got to have that plan to come in immediately with confidence and tell him what's doing so he can't let his mind wander to possible, you know, other situations, other directions or strengths that the wind is going. If you do plan for a certain wind and all of a sudden you get on that tee and it doesn't feel like what it should, I tend to like to wait it out rather than go back and forth between clubs. Because, you know, if you're in between eight and nine, you've got nine out and it feels like it's hurting all of a sudden. You take eight out and immediately the wind's switching goes downwind. So to go back and forth with clubs, I think is the wrong way to go about it there. I think make your decision based on the wind that you think it should be doing and then just wait till you feel that wind. You know, and if you've got to wait 30 seconds, 45 seconds to get into the shot, so be it. But I just think that's a more confident way to get into that shot than kind of going back and forth on the clubs and changing, you know, every time. In terms of where to aim, the only one I think I prefer players aim away from, if our right hander is that far right one. The other ones I think you can kind of go at. That front left, you've got quite a bit of room behind that, even if you go over the green. The middle pins you're going to aim at anyways because those are kind of in the smartest play anyways, right in the middle of that green depth and, you know, side to side. So it's only that right one where I really, you know, try and point in the yardage book and say, here's the total, but here's the number to this over this middle bunker by six. That's the number we want to land this right now. The funniest story was my first one there was, you know, Calc was, I think one or two back at Tiger, my very first master's, I worked for Calc. And we got to that hole and traditional right pin and, you know, he likes to cut everything. So it's a very attractive pin to him. So we go over all the numbers and I do that. I look in the book and I say, you've got, you know, 151 to right here pointing to right over the, that bunker in the middle. He goes, that's a good spot, isn't it? I go, yeah, that's right where you want to aim. Calc gets in there and I see him setting up, setting up, setting up. And literally his last waggle, he moves his feet about an inch to the right, just swings away. He goes, I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. And I think you hit a pretty good shot. So it turned out all right. But boy, that's a shot there. Like I said, you hit it. It's up in the air. It might be in the water. It might be in the front bunker. It might be perfect. It might be in the bushes over the green. It just, that's how much the wind turns around there. Well, and that's what, you know, this may be obvious to some, but the difficulty of that shot is kind of, it's hard to really, you got to process so much information there, right? If you want to go with that pin, it's probably a different club or it's definitely a different yardage than if you want to go over the center bunker. Because if you, if you, you know, want the club that's going to stuff it to the back right one, if you pull it, it is going in the back bunker. It is not going to hold up short. And if you aim at the center and you have a club that's probably a little less, and then you end up drifting right, then you're in the Jordan speed territory, right? And your eyes, Exactly right. When you get up over it, you do the, you want to do the count. I've never played it Augusta, but I, I, I've played, you know, some, similar holes right where you just, if you're aiming away from it, you start to shift a little rider, I'll push it. I'll push it a little bit towards the pin and you just cannot do that with that. Exactly. Yeah. That's exactly right. The other thing about 12, my opinion is, you know, if you do get a bad breaker, make a brad swing, goes in the penalty area. To me, the easiest shot there is to go right up to the penalty area, go in that first cut and drop it there. You've got a flop shot off a pretty good lie. It's not tough to, to hit the green, you know, you might hit it 10, 15 feet, but a lot of guys go back and try and hit that sandwich. And all of a sudden you've got to deal with the wind again. You've got to deal with your adrenaline again. Whenever I had guys hit, you know, unfortunate shots, I really try and encourage them to go play it just a little pit shot from just short in that first cut, just because I thought it was a much easier shot than trying to hit a 60, 70 yard sandwich. You talked a little about the wind there on 12 and it sounds like you do, you know, subscribe to the, to the theory that it does swirl like we hear about so often. But honestly, the MVC graphic that I saw on 17, I think starting last year about, about wind, maybe kind of, it kind of blew my mind about wind and how you guys interpreted on the golf course in terms of, you know, what you're feeling on the ground might be different than what's happening at the apex. And I'd never, honestly, never even thought about how wind could maybe go be going up or down. You know what I mean? At least according to that graphic of like it doing all those things that it maybe does over the corporate tents and things like that. How much of a, you know, is it science versus art in terms of reading wind and, and, you know, how you do that as a caddy? Most of it's science. And what I try and do, and I think what a lot of caddies try and do is have more, more than one way to read the wind. If you just do one thing, if you just stand at your ball and throw up grass, you're measuring the wind, you know, in a one yard circle around you, which is nowhere near where the ball is going to be flying. I try to, and I think a lot of caddies keep a compass on their yardage book, not necessarily a physical one, but you get the forecast early in the day before you play. This is what it should be on all these holes. And then if it's different than that, you can kind of start getting fields for it. But what you do is look for confirmations. There's Spanish moss hanging in all the trees, which is an easy way to figure out that always lays one way or lays the other or just sits there straight down, not only in flag sticks, but flags up by the clubhouse. And the scoreboards is quite a few flags around there that you look at. You never want to go with one thing. You want two or three, when your player says, well, it doesn't feel like that at all. You know, you get to 13 or 12 and you tell them what the wind is doing. Well, it doesn't feel like that at all. Then you need to point in your yardage book and say, we're hitting the exact same direction we were on the seventh hole right now, you know, to the northeast. That seven iron came up, you know, and went came up short, only went 158 yards. So we had to have hurt in it. So we're hitting the same direction now. Have that so scientific facts for him so he can kind of trust it more than what maybe what he's feeling on his pant legs. You always, you won't have multiple ways to affirm what the wind is doing. This episode is presented by Loc Lohman Whiskey's, the official spirit of the open and a Scotch partner of no laying up. Loc Lohman continues to set a high bar in single malt Scotch earning recognition as IWSC Scotch distillery of the year and taking home 10 best in class awards along with more than 70 or better metals across their portfolio including the original 12 year old and 18 year old. What distinguishes Loc Lohman is the way they do things differently. Their distillery features a rare combination of innovative still designs and a thoughtful approach to maturation allowing them to craft a distinctive house style. The result is a balanced refined whiskey with notes of fruit and honey layer with just a hint of soft smoke. It's approachable, but full of character whether you're unwinding after a round or settling in to watch the open. Loc Lohman is a natural choice. Learn more at LocLohmanWhiskey's.com or ask for Loc Lohman at your preferred spirits retailer. Next up, this is a 2018 interview we did with Bones talking about being on the bag for Phil Mickelson's 2004, 2006 and 2010 masters wins. All the things he's learned at Augusta over the time and just geeking out on bone stories, man. I greatly I've listened to this episode probably 10 times over the years and I pick up a little something new every time. So greatly appreciate all Bones has given us over the years and enjoy this. Cheers. Before you caddied in your first first masters, were there any caddies out there that kind of took you under their wing or gave you some pointers before you showed up or as you arrived? Not really. I was lucky before my first masters and that I was cadding for Larry Meis in 90 and 91 there that I caddied for a guy that was very um detail oriented that had you know he and knew a lot about the course. He had you know grown up in the Augusta, Georgia area knew a lot about it knew a lot of things knew how he wanted to play the course and I'll be honest with you it's you know I've gone there so much you know since 1990 and I learned something new about the golf course last year during one particular win that was blowing on the first hole. So you never stop learning and you acquire as much knowledge as you can you store it away and you're never going to forget it and anyway but early on I was lucky to work for a guy that shared a lot with me. What was the thing you learned last year on the first hole? I learned that when the wind is hard left to right and in on one which is often the case I can't tell you off the head off the top of my head what what direction that is but when it's hard in left to right on one that if you drive it in the fairway on two you end up getting help on your second shot that you don't anticipate. So is that planned? No it was just a shot it was just a shot was hit and I remember watching it thinking that shot's getting help and then the wind ended up blowing that direction three of the four days so we went with we went with the help you know later in the week and it worked and it was just you know you know number 206 things that I've learned at Augusta National that I'll never forget you know so something as silly as that you know as a caddie you're just doing anything you can to save your player a shot out there and that was just something that we that we picked up on. Alright let's see if we can uncover the other 205 here because that's that's already fascinating to me. Let's say you're cadding for somebody playing in the Masters for the first time like a rookie this year what's something they need to know before arriving or something you that you would tell them right off the bat about the golf course? Well I would certainly pre-warn them that that they have the option at Augusta of changing the course radically overnight. Now it hasn't happened as much here lately as it did back in the early 2000s but there was a stretch of years where you would be out there on Tuesday and Wednesday and you would come you know you play in the part three and you think you were you know ready for action on Thursday and you get out there on Thursday and you'd be stunned as to how much faster the greens were in 24 hours or maybe you know it was tougher to chip around the greens because they cut the grass a little bit lower just to kind of expect the unexpected but they do have the ability at Augusta National to change the course radically more so I think than any golf course you could ever go to so that would be one thing for sure. Is it I mean so a lot of guys take trips to play the course well in advance of the tournament is that kind of a futile experiment as far as because the course can play so so different from a from a firmness standpoint and whatnot I mean what when you go in advance of the tournament what are you looking to accomplish? I think you're certainly you're you're reassuring what your game plan is because there's so many different ways to play holes and to play whole locations out there I think you're looking for certainly changes in the course because as we all know and and let me go on record saying I'm the biggest Augusta National fan there is the the members the tournament itself I love everything about it but you know that being said you can go there whether it's in the last 20 years 10 years five years and there are changes made to the course that they don't necessarily publicize. I think that they said that they tend to redo two greens a year there and they put them back together you know you know identically but I remember a couple of years ago them you know saying okay the following changes were made you know since last year's event and we went over to the 13th hole in that little low area left and behind that green wasn't nearly as low as it had been before well everybody agreed about it you asked your caddy friends you know your player notices it you know what have you and you and you realize that a change has been made that hasn't necessarily been publicized and you know you make the adjustment based on that. Wow do you I mean we're going to get to the winning years here because there's I have a million questions to ask you about those but the stretch that Phil had leading up to his first year in 2000 his first win in 2004 what do you remember most from that stretch from 99 to 2003 and those agonizing close calls I think he had three straight third plate third place finishes leading up to 04 yeah that sounds right it was just you want to win so badly and and I was I lived along a big part of my life in the state of Georgia so I wanted to I wanted it for Phil and and I wanted to see him when you know that much more just because of that because it is just such an iconic event and and you love it and you go there year after year and you know that it's a course you know that if every single pj tour event was played at Augusta national Phil would have 150 wins or something like that you know it's just a great great place for him but um it was tough but you figured it was going to happen and it was just a matter of of getting a break here in there and continue to play good golf remember one year he played with Greg Norman in the first round it was early in his career I would say 95 96 and he shot 65 or I think it was 65 the first round and I just remember thinking man this guy talking about Phil can really really play this course and he just put on an absolute clinic out there and so you wanted it to happen you know we were patient and you know certainly Mike we're winning in 2003 a left hander I you know I was like oh my gosh another lefty one there before Phil did as great a player as Mike was and is but you had to be patient and just wait for things to fall in place was there a okay any kind of shift from a maturity standpoint strategy standpoint or anything in advance of 2004 that allowed him to get over the hump or was it just his time no he certainly started becoming much more efficient inside of 160 yards he did these towel drills where he would throw towels down in like 10 or 15 yard increments and and he got really really sharp with the scoring clubs and that that certainly helped that had happened kind of between the tournaments in 2003 and 2004 so that was a factor and certainly playing he birdied 12 on Sunday in 04 and just you know threw the ball down you know and and it was you know basically 160 yard shot and hit an eight iron to 12 feet and and and made the pot but but but having that kind of under that kind of pressure and leading the tournament that actually not leading the term but trying to catch Ernie L's and and needing a two to kind of jump start his final round you know being sharp in with those kinds of numbers was was huge in terms of that win that first one we are actually going to rewatch the 2004 masters tonight and we're going to do a live broadcast on on periscope with uh with with the with the listeners and followers so people are going to be very fat they're going to open up this podcast on Wednesday morning after having done that and be very excited to hear these stories but in advance of us rewatching this what's something about that day that you'd say maybe not a lot of people remember or or even aware of well if you don't mind I'd like to tell a story about something that happened on I think on Friday of course you know the thing that was frustrating at that point about not winning majors was was that you know you would hear Tiger say and I remember Duvall saying it that you know but but Tiger especially to win the major two things have to happen you have to play really really well and you have to get lucky and and I don't care who you are or how good you are any tournament one on the PGA tour you're gonna the guy that wins the tournaments can look back on that week and think of a couple of things that happened that were just you know crazy good breaks that kind of keep your momentum going and and you start thinking man this could be my week and Phil on Friday that week drove it in the 13th fairway and had hit a four iron into the back right pin there on 13 and overcooked his draw and the ball overdrew hit on the right side of the green and the momentum of it carried it into raised creek and you know big groan from the patrons that are up there by the green so we know it's wet and we walked the 215 20 yards up there to where it was and you know this gets back to the changes in the course you know but you know raised creek now is just nothing but solid water but back then there were patches of turf in the middle of this creek and there was one about the size of a manhole cover in the middle of the creek and this ball was sitting on it it was an island unto itself in the middle of this creek perfectly manicured green grass and the ball was sitting up on it so that the left-hander could play a shot perfectly off of it and I swear to you he could hit driver out of this lie it was so good and he damn near chipped it in for eagle he chipped it in and made four and when he went on to win the tournament a couple of days later we we both talked about how we didn't say it we didn't verbalize the time hey this might be the week you know to get an incredibly good break like that and pick up potentially a shot shot and a half you know it was that extra kick in the pants you needed to maybe go on and win before that final round in 2004 did it did the moment or did the scenario feel any different to you than any of his previous close calls that's a good question what was tough was that he shot 38 on the front nine he didn't play that badly I just remember he bogeyed five and there was another bogey in there somewhere I can't remember if there was a birdie or not but there were two or three bogeys on the front and we were behind the eight ball and Ernie was making this huge charge which included making eagle on eight and I think Ernie was in the group in front of us I believe because I do remember you know being on being on uh eight tee I'm waiting for Ernie to hit an iron shot into eight and hearing this huge roar and the ball had ended up rolling up there to six eight feet for eagle and he made it and of course at that point Ernie had won multiple majors and he was you know as good a player you know other than tiger as anybody in the game and it was like oh boy here we go and and Phil knew as he made the turn there on Sunday he was not going to win that tournament unless he did something extraordinary on the back um I mean he ended up shooting 31 and birding five at the last seven which is pretty extraordinary but uh it was it was you know when we were out there on that front nine it was it was tough sledding and you know you got all these people out there Phil is very very popular in the state of Georgia he won this big junior event there a number of times he won the Atlanta tournament a number of times and folk he won the tour championship a couple of times I think and uh so folks there liked him and and and and people at the Masters wanted him to win and when you're out there and you're getting behind the eight ball or early on Sunday it's tough so that that 12th hole that you mentioned is so as you said he was too over for the day going into that 12th hole uh I want to know kind of from your your caddy perspective that 12th hole I think we can we can agree sets up pretty well for a left-handed player in that you know for a right-hander if you you know when you miss right typically that means you miss short whereas for a left-hander if you miss right that may mean you pulled it a little bit and you miss longer what was Phil's strategy or what is I guess you could say what is Phil's strategy on that hole knowing does he know that he has an advantage on the field with that back right pin position well I think he knows that Augusta national this is certain this is my opinion I certainly can't speak for him but Augusta national is the greatest left-handed course ever um I think that's why Phil's done what he's done you know Phil's probably going to win that tournament again Bob has got a good chance at anybody Mike wears one the tournament there are several crucial t-shots there that are easier for lefties than they are for righties and you've hit the nail on the head 12 is probably the prime example um certainly to those right pins you could get back to the t-shots on 10 and 13 it's much easier to hit a big slice off the tee as a lefty on those dog leg lefts especially on 13 than it is to hit a draw right so so those those shots those shots are are playing the lefty's hands but to your point yeah a guy like Phil it is going to absolutely know that the way that green shape is on 12 is a better shape for him than it is for the righties in the field so had he that birdie putt he lined up from behind the hole had he had that putt in prior years I mean that he he's he drained it he fist pumped and that's really the thing that kicked him off did he and we've talked I think in the past about how you know you don't you don't read putts at Augusta you learn the breaks is that a putt that he had experience with and he knew exactly what the read was or what was the conversation like before that putt yeah absolutely he said later on he said I'd missed that putt high and I'd missed it low so I absolutely knew the read and you know certainly where it comes to Augusta national I think part of the reason Phil's had success there you know with three wins and Tiger's won as much as he had is because you're talking about two guys with amazing memories and you know they can recall a putt from the 90s that did you know xyz that's why I think Tiger's won as many times at bay hill as he has and Tory pines as he has and Phil in the same respect has you know multiple wins on on on a handful of courses because these guys remember things from past years and they apply them going forward and you know if I was you know if I was a young player today that looked like I was about to play in the next 15 or 20 masters I'd be riding absolutely everything down I possibly could because you know it's the one major that's going to go back there year after year and so yes Phil had had that putt before he'd missed it a couple of times and I think he knew when that thing was halfway there it was going down so he he follows it with a two putt birdie on 13 and then on 14 he almost jars it from the fairway how how how well could you see the ball from the fairway do you remember trying to figure out if that ball was actually going in the hole uh it was uh it was it was the crowd reaction it was a kind of a he had he had started hitting these three quarter shots or earlier that year and and um it was a three quarter nine yardage but it was the first shot we played that day where we were like okay let's start factoring adrenaline and so um I remember you know the discussion went from being a three quarter nine to you know can we get wedged there and the coolest thing happened to that bird it's that birdie pin on on 14 that that you see guys you know hit the ball so close to and the thing about that hole is yeah you can hit it a foot there but if you roll two or three yards past the hole and the ball gets up hung up in the fringe it's literally a putt from 12 feet where you putt with your back to the hole because it has this viciously crazy break and so we were having this discussion in the fairway about you know why we shouldn't hit the nine and we started talking about the ball getting up in the fringe and we were playing with DeMarco and Christa Marco hits this shot right at the flag that releases a little hardly one or two and it gets caught up in the back fringe and we're like yeah like that you know so it was just kind of we're like okay well you know the you know the golfing gods are telling us something here we just talked about how this can happen it happened to DeMarco we made the adjustment went down to wedge and he hit it to six inches god it's amazing memory do the do the shots not start to like blend together for you after all these years so as many times as you've been around that course never we can do this when i'm 85 if you want no i think i'll still remember it like thursday through sunday or do the sunday ones are they that much more memorable no i think that uh you certainly you know sunday of your first you know the first master's one that your player has you know is going to stand out but it's crazy the stuff is a caddy that you remember it's it's it's it'll it'll drive your nuts almost so phil not only shoots 31 on the back but didn't birdie 15 now you guys get to 16 uh and i'm not positive if you were trailing at this point but you you knew you needed at least one birdie coming in take take me through the shot on 16 knowing that his adrenaline level has to be at just the maximum amount that it can be at with that pin position again it's the same sunday pin what's your guys approach to the t-shot on 16 in that situation well phil you know it was it was it was a secret there for a bit and then phil ended up kind of talking about it in an interview after the fact but so you know he's a real student of the game and i i'd like to think to a large degree i am too and i had noticed if you go back over the years of these great little master's movies that come out that we have all watched on the golf channel and and elsewhere that show the the recaps of the tournaments that there were guys on a number of occasions that hit shots on 16 that they just absolutely pose over the and the ball comes down you know 25 30 feet long and and and they just seem shocked and and you know and when that happens to a tour player you know usually when they've hit something the five feet they kind of know it when the ball is in the air they have a feel for the yardage they hit the shot they know how they hit it and when something comes down they're they're genuinely shocked well you got to kind of take note of that and i think it had happened to davis one year i think it had happened to duval one year and it might even have happened to urney that very day i don't know and so phil and i had talked about it and about how you know we were kind of developing this theory there on 16 that no matter what the situation when you get you know in the hunt or when you get that master's adrenaline going if you get between clubs you go with the lesser club and even if you're not between clubs it's a it just plays a half club short and it's a very unique piece of land chris and i know you've been there and when you're out there at the master's whether you're in 40th place on thursday or whether not you're leading on sunday there are thousands of people around that hole and it's in something of a valley there's several thousand people left and behind the green and there's people right and it's i don't know what it is but it's a very very low point in the course and we started wondering if maybe you know what was going on here with the topography and the number of people maybe it was affecting the air in a sense that the ball was going to go further and i'm not trying to sound like some kind of scientist here we're just trying to figure out why are guys hitting these shots that they pose over that are going long and so phil doesn't birdie 15 he now is one back and he needs to make one more to tie urney who's ahead of us and we walked over to the to the 16th d and phil says let's plug it in let's go with the theory and i can't off the top of my head remember the yards but it was probably something like 186 which is an absolute normal good in those days seven iron and he hit eight and so we said you know what let's just hit the hard eight and take our chances here and he ripped an eight and we really didn't know at that point where it was coming down but it came down 18 feet right under the hole which is a great spot because you would literally and i'm not exaggerating here you would rather have 18 feet short of the hole on 16 that sunday pinned and have five feet behind it it is anything behind that hole is the hardest most maybe brutal put in golf that i've ever seen you can't make it and you'll see guys three putt from 10 feet there regularly and so he you know this ball came down 18 feet short sure sure enough it had gone much much further than we would have thought an eight iron would go and he made it and it was a cool moment because you know there he's now tied to the lead in the masters i'm over there you want to jump out of your skin but you're trying to look as cool as you can and he came over and he grabbed he grabbed the the the putter end of the club the club had into the putter and it hit me really hard in the rear end with the putter grip and said let's make one more and it was a really cool moment of all my moments with phil it was probably kind of a top 10 so even though we didn't know at that point yet what what the future held in terms of the next couple of holes for him to make that two for the theory to work and for him to say what he said he didn't say it with the crowd was going bananas he had to yell it in my ear but it was a it was a cool moment and what do you remember about that putt too is that just an experience putt that you guys have had before and knew knew knew the break exactly yeah i'm not reading any putts you know at agustav just again back to i mean that's not true i i guess occasionally if phil gets something that he's just not sure of but again because of his memory because the number of times he's played there it's it's rare that i'm gonna read a putt there and so he it was just a putt you know that breaks quite a bit to the left at the end and he made it right in the middle so coming up 18 you guys know you need birdie i mean in that situation is phil talkative does he make a joke is he does he say something do you to pump himself up what it's how does he handle that situation with you or is it just like every other hole well until i saw the the the coverage the tournament coverage later on i i didn't realize because i guess i don't remember i was probably walking ahead of him because you again you're you're so jacked up you want to get out there and triple check your yardage and start thinking about what you're gonna say to your player you know when he says to you you know what do you like but he was smiling the whole way up i mean there he was tied to the lead in the master as he hit the longest three wood you could ever hit it's like 288 yards and that that tee that first fairway bunker and we were you know so driver really wasn't an option we were not going to put him in that sand and you know he said you know can i get three woods that bunker and you know we're like not in a million years and he literally hit it a yard short of it he had he was just so jacked up and uh and then you know we got out there and you know it's straight up the hill there and it was like you know 172 playing you know 180 and um again you're dealing with adrenaline these all fired up we talked about it it was just a perfect good hard cut eight iron and you know he hit the shot and and the thing about it is you know that ball i'm so glad he flushed it as much as he did because again you're pulling clubs to try and make a three he's not trying to make a four there and that ball in terms of carrying the false front probably only carried it by a few feet but again fortunately we got that just right and it you know released to where it did behind the hole but he wasn't playing you know 20 25 feet right like a lot of guys do and a lot of guys have a success oh mirror went on to make that putt to beat fred in 98 but he took it right at the flag it never left the the pin and and then it got really interesting after that in terms of the read because of the demarco situation yeah demarco hits his hits his approach or chip right behind fills ball and gets and fill even cracks a smile and looks at him and knows he's going to get the perfect read so was there anything major learned in that read do you think or was that another situation where you kind of have a pretty good idea of how that putt's going to break no there was a big learn there i think the putt broke definitively more than uh than phil thought and i think he said that on the rehearse on the record saying that demarco's putt was incredibly instrumental in in the win and what happened there in 18 green because i think phil had an idea what he was going to play it he saw demarco's putt fall off the table to the left there and phil adjusted and and just snuck it in the left side there so we all know what happens next he makes the putt you come running at him and just and you say something in his ear you can see it on the broadcast you hug him and say something do you remember what you said i think i said you did it okay i i think that after all that stuff and all the major stuff and you know how tough it was and how tough 2003 was for him you know to come out and win the first term in 2004 i remember one of the golf publications earlier that year had had put out their predictions as to where they thought you know players were going to finish that year on the money list and i remember a big golf publication had phil at 31 and the point was this guy's not even going to the tour championship and i thought to myself boy oh boy i said that's i thought that's you know that's pretty disrespectful in a sense this guy's been a great player now for a number of years and granted he hasn't won a major yet but he's uh he's certainly shown up and played well a lot and won a lot of tournaments for a guy his age and uh i just i remember running into the to a to the guy that week that wrote the article and just looking at him a little bit sideways and and you know and then fulfill the goal on there and win the tournament and to establish shelf as you know you know one of the great players in the game and going on to be one of the greatest that ever played the game was pretty cool yeah i mean i that moment i remember i was in high school and i even understood i think i understood this the the nature of that moment or how the the brevity of that moment i guess because i mean it was it was intense and i still think rewatching it the noise of that day in that back nine charge i can't remember in my lifetime they're being a louder one is that the case for you yeah it was it was it was incredible it was you know almost make your ears ring and my wife was beyond nine months pregnant and and i literally had to run home you know for the birth of my my first our first child uh our son oliver and so there was a lot going on and i will tell you it was phil had a couple weeks off after that and didn't play again till new warlands so he goes to new warlands i don't think he even played a practice round but he showed up and when you're playing in the program on wednesday and phil's an early program guy typically and so you're teeing off at six fifty and you're out there and there's a guy you know a couple of volunteers and the guy making the announcements and and that's about it and you stand there and the guy goes next on the tee the 2004 masters champion phil michelson and it was such a cool thing to hear and something you've been aching to hear for some of your phil asked him if he would say it again and so phil backed off his t-shirt and got introduced twice at the next term we played out so that was a cool moment oh that's cool uh so 2006 uh you guys you come back you come back to the golf course and it has changed pretty dramatically they lengthened a bunch i think six holes and what do you remember about the first time you guys saw it did you think this is an even better thing for us or this hurt us a bit or what was your first thought when you saw the new golf course well phil had won the previous week by 13 um so atlanta was the week before and i guess we had probably gone to august national before that but we had heard some changes were going to be made they were going to put trees right on 11 they were going to lengthen the seventh hole and and the other things they did i guess 17 changed also but it was shocking how hard it was and especially the seventh hole the seventh hole is you know a very very small green from front to back literally only maybe 10 that's not true i'd say 12 to 15 paces and i do remember one day in 2006 early in the tournament phil hit the fairway there and we had five iron into the green and we're used to hitting nine irons wedges sand wedges in there and the course was playing so hard that we stood out there in the fairway and phil and i agreed that the only way to make par on the hole i think was windy tough conditions was we intentionally hit the ball over the green into the gallery to set up our angle on our third shot to get up and down for four which he did but it was i mean guys it was guys were like blown away by how hard it had gotten in a very short period of time and it was like oh my gosh this is a whole new era here and i i guess that was the hoody johnson era and it was like you know batting down the hatches there because this place has just gotten really really hard and phil won at seven under i think that year and then the next year zack johnson won at one over i think that they were you know there were a lot of changes in that time period and it uh i think there was was that the year that there was some weather because he finished the third round on that sunday morning is that right there was definitely some weather yes we had to finish some golf on sunday morning and uh and then you know golf's a funny game and my closest friend who's a caddy is joe lakava who now caddy's for tiger woods but he caddy for years and years are fred couples and you know i just remember how that whole thing kind of lined up that week and fred is a great player who was you know unlucky in my opinion only to win one masters and also very unlucky to be dealt the card that he was dealt in terms of his health and his back and whatnot that there's no telling what he might have done had he played with a good back his entire career but we got paired with him on sunday and it was it was you know a beautiful beautiful sunday in august at you know 70 degrees and sunny and virtually no wind and it was a real cool experience to be out there for four or five hours with him so there weren't a ton of fireworks on the front nine filled actually birdied seven on that sunday and eight and then on 13 he pushed his drive a little do you guys do you remember the conversation between you two while the ball was in the air well if you pushed it it was probably get up you know uh please please lord i mean something like that go ahead you got well i i literally just watched it so you're yelling at it get out there get out there oh wow it's still in the air he goes i hit it like he wasn't worried about it cutting the corner but it's yeah it's so funny how he is he's calming you down while the ball was in the air and how you thought it was potentially in trouble so yeah so it's a very pronounced slice there and the ball probably only has to go about 240 50 yards you know to get around the dog leg but you know again for a lefty like bubba or phil you're hitting such a pronounced slice that yeah it's easy to you know not that tough to hit a slice but you got to make sure you cover your yards before the ball actually does start slicing and so he makes birdie there it's in the fairway easily and then he gets uh pin high on 15 in two and chips up actually lips out his chip and he's got about a 10 12 footer maybe for birdie he sinks it and do you remember what he said to you or what happened to you after that put no let me hear it well i mean he comes right up to you clearly like tries to get your attention and says great read so was that a putt that you chimed in on yeah i mean it that's cool i mean that's that's cool to hear um yeah i i now that you say that i i do i i do kind of remember it was funny the previous hole not to go backwards but the previous hole threaded it to three feet on on 14 and had three putted and and it had just kind of shook up the whole day because they had been going head to head and back and forth and now it was phil's tournament to win it felt like and so i do remember i do remember getting called in for the read there yeah and the ball i think going a little to the right phil wanted some some affirmation on the read and i think it was a left edge putt and you made it yeah so now you go to 16 in a very different situation than in 04 you're leading by 4 now do you approach that tee shot any differently do you try to play that shot safer because he ended up going right at the flag but was that the intention i think that was the intention because back in those days you know and of course this is the era when the course played its hardest if you had that left pin on on on 16 and you hit it up on the right shoulder of the green up top so to speak you were you were going to have 10 or 15 feet for par and that's kind of changed now i think with the softening of the course where you're able now to get that putt a little bit closer but back then it was almost a guaranteed three putt and so i think phil's phil's you know take on that hole was you know what i i got to take it right at it and if you think about it too and he makes a very good point about this it's a really tough hole you know as many great shots as there are for lefties there 16 is not one of them because when a lefty tees up his ball and 16 waggles and looks the hole every time they look up to look up at the pin you see water but when a when a righty does it you see green grass so that hole visually kind of messes with your head as a left hander and so i think phil's like you know what i've got to hit a shot here and i'm just going to take it right out of the last thing i want to do is hit a shot where i'm looking and end up having 45 feet for birdie so he goes on to win win in 06 rather comfortably and then zoom in ahead to 2010 you guys are one shot back going into the final round but this year was just such a unique year for from phil from a family perspective what was the lead up like going into that year with everything phil had going on with amy's amy's cancer diagnosis well it was difficult to say the least it was uh you know golf wasn't obviously the most important thing by any stretch um and it was just a question of you know without getting into too much detail taking care you know of the situation as much as i could and looking after you know making sure i was doing everything i could for phil and you know just golf it was secondary even though for phil it was a release and a place to get away to from the other things he had going on in his life and you know there that was a remarkable week you know for for so many reasons obviously there was a lot going on and and i if i'm not mistaken you know i think i may have said this to you at some point over a dinner somewhere you know phil played as bad as i've ever seen him play the week before in houston i think he made the cut but it was just it just wasn't there and and and he wasn't clicking and there were a million reasons why uh he was you know he had a lot on his mind to say the least and uh for him to go from from that and from there to where he got to in 2010 and and you know was was mind boggling i mean it was it's a real credit to him and his backbone that he was able to win that week it's it's amazing to rewatch these three masters wins you know kind of consecutively like i just i skipped around to some of the shots but again he takes it right over the flag on 12 he's got pretty much the same putt is that i'm assuming at this point there's no conversation that needs to be had about that putt gosh no yeah all i need to do is make sure i clean the ball properly when he gives it to me and he gets the heck out of the way so he buries it he gets to 13 hits his drive in the pine straw uh the the it's better than i remember the broadcast as far as them kind of getting quiet and letting the caddie and player conversation happen and the amount of the things that you guys went through was that a a quick conversation between you and phil regarding going for that green on 13 uh or was that longer drawn out that maybe the cameras didn't catch yeah it was i guess what it was chris was that you know normally you you want you know phil's a very technical guy and and and if he's got a question certainly is a caddie you're gonna answer it and people all over the years have enjoyed i think conversations between player and caddie and maybe between phil and i that have gone on for you know 10 or 15 seconds or whatever the weird thing about this was it took place over a lengthy period of time because we were waiting so long for the green to clear and so when we got up there and phil you know had this you know 206 yards that he had to the hole we were waiting and waiting for kj choy and whoever ever he was playing with to to leave the green and i think kj was leading at that point and so we got up there i gave phil the yardage he had when you go back and you look at it on tv tv does no justice to how narrow the gap in the trees was it looks fairly wide on television but i can tell you that it was about as wide as uh the length of a dozen balls a box of a dozen balls so it was about that kind of width and it was a lot of pine straw and my biggest concern wasn't that phil could fit it through the gap in a perfect world it was that phil would lose his footing and then hit one of the trees as a result and so if the ball comes back and hits him or goes into the creek or goes into the gallery whatever the case may be excuse me the patrons um you know it's a bad bad situation but you know to phil's credit he's thinking about making something happen and that that's part of what makes him great so i gave him the yardage he tells me i'm going for it in two so okay i know that now it's part of my job is any caddy's job is you know sometimes when you talk to your player you know they're 100 percent in and sometimes they're 80 percent in and it's not hard to judge but sometimes you may kind of go back a little bit just to kind of see where they're at and so i i said to phil hey you know he the previous day on saturday he had made three straight excuse me two straight eagles almost three on 13 14 and 15 i just reminded him you're the best wedge player in the game if you lay this up you're gonna have a very routine up and down you know for four and he he said i'm going okay i said now i know he's 100 and that's great so now again we're waiting for the screen to clear it seems like it's taking forever and finally kj joy pots and he misses a six footer that we assume is for birdie but it turns out was for par i believe and we hear this murmur in the crowd i turn to the cameraman right behind us and say what's up he goes i think believe he said kj just made six you guys are now tied for the lead so all i'm gonna do now is phil's a big scoreboard watcher it's it's my my job i think at this point to say to him hey does the fact that you're leading now change the way you want to play this whole and he looks at me and he says listen if i'm gonna win this tournament today i'm gonna have to hit a great shot under a lot of pressure i'm gonna do it right now and that is like the ultimate get the f out of the way to your caddy you know what i mean that is i've got it it you like six iron i like six iron i'm ready to go i'm ready to do this thing i've now said what i need to say and i get out of there as quickly as i possibly can and he hits you know the most famous shot of his career so it was uh it was an incredible kind of geez it was probably three or four minutes that felt like half an hour i'll never forgive him for missing the putt i can't watch the shot now because knowing that he misses the putt um so go ahead go ahead it was funny as you know from being around there there are fountains and bridges that have been dedicated to you know the hogans and the necklaces and the palmers and stuff like that and i always wondered to myself if he had made that pot you know would it increase the chance that phil might get his own little monument out there at some point given the success in the tournament but you never know i remember attending in 2012 and they had a little white little pin flag there from the exact spot that he had hit it at so i would think at some point they've at least got that spot marked if there's ever gonna be a plaque that goes in there so um you guys get to 15 you guys have a pretty extensive conversation over that shot uh what do you remember about that conversation i just remember that we the adrenaline was going crazy and that we that he hit a shot that that made absolutely no sense that you could get the smartest man in the world and teach him all about yardages and adrenaline and this and that and you could never you could never quantify the fact that he had 196 yards or whatever it was he had and hit eight iron and it was basically a maybe a comfortable six hard seven yardage but it was it was those days that you get in august in april on sunday it's 72 degrees it's dry as can be there's not a cloud in the sky it's sunny and these guys are compressing the ball and you know phil's not a guy even with a lead in that tournament where you know if his he hits a shot and it ends up two yards over that green even though that's you know he's gonna make four there nine times out of ten that's not what he wants he wants to hit a shot and you know and be rewarded for it and over the green there to him is not a reward so he wanted to play at that hole and he we i would like you know i know this is crazy i think it's a tomahawk eight iron and he agreed and he tomahawked it to ten feet exactly pin high if i remember correctly and i just remember walking down there shaking my head going my goodness gracious that that's one of the if not the craziest club selection we've ever had well i i love that too that conversation because he before he goes to hit it it shows his trust in you he says if it starts to hurt because you're talking about the wind yeah if it starts to hurt let me know yeah you you before you before he went to go hit it you said come on let it go like it sounded like you were kind of he was maybe a bit wavering on the club choice and you really wanted to commit to it and is that good interpretation i think what i was probably saying is you can't hit this hard enough kind of thing that if i said let it go i was probably saying we need every inch of this eight iron knowing that you know if he hits it a quarter inch out on the toe you know a groove low you know this thing's not only going to go in the water it's not even going to be close but the thing about great players like phil tiger fred and his day all these guys that could that were are really long hitters is they rarely rarely miss hit the ball especially under pressure i mean you know that may sound like okay but you know pj tour pros don't miss hit shots they'll hit a little heavy they'll hit a little thin but but i remember phil and his prime and probably still to this day he could literally he would literally miss hit five shots a year everything else was just flush right in the mouth and i was basically saying to him there you know you've got a tomahawk this to get it there miss hit five shots a year that might be the best thing i've ever heard that walk coming up 18 what do you remember about that just kind of you know heaven on earth in a sense it's just the greatest feeling in the world and i think phil phil drove it in the right rough there i think and and had a little root issue and whatnot and you know you're you know it he was still going to win but i remember you're still kind of grinding your butt off and you're doing everything you can and but it's just surreal and and and of course i think there was some debate that day that will not debate but there was no way of knowing whether or not his wife was going to come out to to be there and i remember that she was there and you know so as was my wife with her and so that you know you you know you're gonna your player's gonna win the masters you're it's an honor to be out there it's just the greatest privilege in the world to caddy at that event let alone have your player you know be fortunate to win it and then to look back there with all they had going on and to see that was pretty mind-blowing so phil knew she was there next to the green i think he saw her play the at on the green there you have a chance to look around a little bit with the lead he had and and she was there by the scoring area that used to be behind 18 green did that win feel like the most significant of the three uh i'm sure it did again i can't speak for phil i'm sure it did for phil i mean i tell people a lot when they ask you know when phil won his first first masters in 04 it was a relief it was great but it was a relief i mean it was you're never going to have to answer that question again i'm sure maybe sergio might say the same thing if he goes on to have you know win multiple majors i mean it's great and it's an incredible experience but it's just so nice that you're never going to have to answer that question again and that every single tournament that phil goes to for the rest of his life whether you're phil or sergio or tiger woods there's going to be a little kids out there with yellow master's flags asking you to sign them and it's just a reminder that you know what you've been able to accomplish and it's a great great feeling but um you know the the third one was probably more significant than than the first in some ways i think to your point so of the 2012 masters is the most recent of the one that got away is it was it any easier to stomach that one when you've already won three of them no probably not you want to win every single one of them it golf's funny like that you know i remember telling you know when phil won his open championship in 2013 i remember you know phil played an acron his next event and finished let's say 20th and i remember we were coming down the stretch and we were grinding like crazy to finish 20th at the very next event after what i thought was the biggest win of his career and so it's just funny you know how something amazing can happen in golf and and you just want more and more and and and and certainly uh not winning in 2012 certainly then he'd won three of them but you want to win every single one