Shooting the Shit About Editors Quiet Quitting and the Unpaid Labour of Agents

Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with literary agents Carly Waters and Cece Lira, where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business. If you've ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug and pull up a chair. Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another special episode of Shooting the Shit. Every episode is a special episode because it's Mondays and we just love chatting with you about everything that's on our mind. So thanks for hanging out. I had a question for Cece, which was, did you get any further in heated rivalry? Because you did say that you might... No. Okay. I will I still have it on my list but okay so it's not my fault it's Sansa's fault I watched the Sansa show I don't know Sansa's name I should is it called Steel Stolen I don't know the show's name but I watched the whole thing and that was obviously very time consuming right because I watched every single episode it's very good and so that was all my tv time but I will but again I'm not feeling the pull the pull of the story and I had actually quite a few listeners DM me to be like, Cece, you're not alone. I also didn't fall in love with it. Like it's good. Everyone's saying, yeah, it's good. It's well made. But I wasn't obsessed. I think it's actually really interesting when something like becomes such a cultural phenomenon, there's always the people who are like, oh my God, what's wrong with me that I don't love it. I want to love it too. I want to be a part of this. So I'm still going to get into it or try to get into it anyway, because I do think that because of how popular it is and the fact that it's based on a book, I kind of want to dissect the storytelling. Like I want to do it for my nerdy purposes. but yeah but my current obsession has been sansa's show yeah she'll always be sansa for me i also want to shout out one of our fellow book podcasters and bad on paper the ladies over there are doing a heated rivalry breakdown so if you are looking for podcasters who are going to be talking about the books and the show i know the bad on paper ladies did an episode or maybe they're continuing to do more episodes but i know they definitely have one episode so people can head over see now i want to do it even more now i want to watch it even more because i want to then listen to the to the awesome um bad on fever i'm on i'm on my second re-watch of the show but i also i've been watching the pit which comes out weekly and i'm very focused on that and obviously all the reading that i have to do evenings are so fun i'm like can i do a tv show should i read what should i do yeah and i also started watching show every day or no like no my god no every day or no i don't do an hour to be every day i probably honestly like a week or two weeks could go by sometimes with me watching tv interesting yeah it's just i do i do an hour every every evening yeah yeah it's our couch time it's our we call it couch time we just literally watch an hour every evening and yeah i love it i love it because it's like still storytelling so it's still feeding my obsessive brain but it's much more passive right because you know your imagination is not being leveraged in the same way you do it together right whereas like you can't read a book like side by side together so yeah i love that yeah plus it's an excuse to eat more popcorn because you know i love eating popcorn so yeah well I should say I actually do watch a movie a week but it's because as a family we sit down and watch a movie and have popcorn on Fridays and so we watch Disney zombies which is like a kids musical like a high school musical zombies Disney but it's like high school musical people who've seen it know what I'm talking about it's basically high school musical so I do watch a movie we do watch movies a family so I don't get a lot of let's say adult quality PT time or sitting down with my husband on the couch time. But yeah, I think it's just that stage of my life. So we had a couple, we had a big list of things we want to talk about today. I want to talk about, I have a gripe. I want to talk about quiet quitting. Cece has some things she wants to get off of her chest. We also have a bunch of Instagram kind of posts that popped up on our feeds that we really enjoyed. We also, I don't know if we have so much to talk about. Oh, I also want to talk about publishing, our publishing pet peeves. I have a bunch of like little pet peeves that have been piling up. So I need to get those off my chest. And then we have an author kind of writer, follower, DM that we want to get to. So we have lots of good stuff today. Cece, where do you want to start? I want to start about hearing about this quiet quitting situation. I'm curious. What happened? Oh my gosh, I'm so annoyed by this. So publishers in their contracts have option clauses, which involve a number of things like the material that needs to be submitted, the timeline that it needs to be submitted by. And often, at least in my contracts, the amount of time that the editor or publisher has to take to kind of get back to you to make a decision so that clients can go on their way, you know, whether it's a fit this way or that way. So there's, it's a pretty meaty clause that goes through all the parameters and the guidelines of what a good, you know, what, what an appropriate amount of time is. So I sent a client's option project in July to a publisher and the author's book did really well. And I should preface all of this. The author's book did well. So it sold well. It was a great book. It earned out its advance. The author has continued to earn royalties years after the book came out. So all in all, I should preface this with a successful project so I see I send the option project to a publisher and takes forever to hear back from them then they come back with like a few questions and then I get the answers for them and then it takes a month for them to get back to me it's like oh we need to do a couple more questions another month to get back to me let's set a call with the authors to ask some questions more questions so it's a it's like a completely long drawn out process and then by December I still hadn't heard from them about whether they're going to buy the book and so frustrating like I followed up with a you know we need to make a decision the authors need to be able to you know know whether they can go on their way and contractually they are free to go on their way because it's been so long but out of you know the respect and due diligence of you know that partnership yeah I continue to check in with them so very frustrating kind of like I'm calling it quite quitting on this option project because they haven't officially passed on it but they're also not saying no which is just so annoying and so frustrating. That is really annoying. I wonder, like, I do remember an agent once told me, this was so many years ago when I first started agenting. I remember an agent told me that, you know, he sent over the auction work to the publisher. Publisher, it's not that they were dragging their feet, but they were like, very respectfully, we are swamped. Can we please have a little bit more time? And the agent was like, that's fine. And then the editors started ghosting this agent yeah seemed wild to me right like you have a book together etc i don't actually know what the track record was for the first book so i can't offer that context but anyway the part that shocked me was editor ghosted and then the agent after following up multiple times mind you being like hey like after a while the agent was like well my client's free to go because yeah i i we fulfilled our contractual obligations we are very sad that this person's not answering us i remember they tried to like loop in the um senior editor to be like yeah right like nothing so okay cool agent goes out with the submission submission sells publisher's marketplace deal is announced right away because this is not an agency that has to wait for the contract for the announcement okay and then editor follows up to be like i'm very surprised to hear that you know this this this author's work went to and he was like do you like what like i called you emails the calls emailed you yeah like and then again according to the story the editor apparently was like well I thought that out of respect for our relationship you wouldn't have shopped it around without telling me about it sorry not that you wouldn't have shopped it around you wouldn't have accepted an offer without first coming back to me and being like we have an offer which is not in the contract yeah like and I had never heard of an editor doing that and since I have never heard and like to be clear like to anyone listening this is not common behavior like yeah most lovely editors will respond and will be you know honest about whether they want something or not it is the author's choice whether they obviously want to take any offer that is made but yeah it's just like it's it's really frustrating because communication in this industry is not what it should be I think it's actually one of my we're not there yet but it's one of my big things about publishing like yeah so that's my gripe and it sounds like it has happened for and I'm sure it will happen again to somebody else and yeah the joys of publishing to people reaching out to you being like oh this deal was announced what excuse me what's going on okay and cece you had a note here about a non-fiction creator what did you want to say about this one yeah again obviously not going to share details we were very mindful of confidentiality here but what i love about our show is that we still get to talk about specifics without without getting into details so i was having conversations with a really talented non-fiction expert they do not have a book and i approached them i want to make that clear. And I said, Hey, would you consider writing a book? If you ever do, I'd love to chat. And whenever I have these chats, I always come in, you know, if I have a vision and often I do, I'll come in with a vision, but I'll make sure to say that I'm really flexible with my vision. And you know, they're the expert, but as a consumer of their content, which I am, I'm like, I would love to read a book by you. And this book could, you know, take on many forms, but this is what I was thinking. Like, what do you think? This is a very smart person who has many, many years of research. And so their book would be very meaty filled with case studies, filled with original research, which is what I love. One of my many gripes about proposals are like hot air proposals. Like I can't stand it. And this person like, oh my gosh, so much content. And they were lovely. Like they were so lovely. And they were like, yeah, I have all these ideas. And I really like that they like kind of, we had this great back and forth. We were like brainstorming angles. And I could tell that like, I knew they were smart, but I'm like, whoa, you're even smarter than I thought. And it was just awesome. So much chemistry. And you know, I always say, please talk to every agent out there that you might be interested in working with. There is no timeline to get back to me. I'm not going to pressure you. I never want that. Like, I always want people to sign with me because you want to sign with me. But you know, let me know. And I and they got back to me. And I'm I could tell by the start of the email that it was going to be bad news. But I thought they had picked a different agent, which happens, you know, it happens to everyone. Side note, when I first started working with Carly and Carly mentioned, like losing a beauty contest, I was like, does it still happen to you? Because in my mind, could never happen to the Carly Watters. And Carly was like, best to everyone, Cece. Anyway, sorry for that side note. Back to the story. So the email basically said, I've decided not to write a book and I would love to hop on a call and tell you, but I'm mindful of your time and I don't want to waste your time, but I don't think I want to write a book. And I'm like really curious to know why. So I was like, yeah, I'd love a call. So we had a very quick call and you know, this person was like, look, I ran the economics of it. I talked to all my friends who have books and I offer these products currently. And I'm obviously not going to say what the products are. Yeah. Yeah. I'm assuming courses and stuff. Everyone's assuming, right? Like, but these are the products they offer about their content. Yeah. These products give them X amount of money, right? Which is totally fair They are they are in a for business And if I were to write a book I would have to dedicate X amount of time and also money because they would need a ghostwriter not because they not a fabulous writer but because they too busy and you know when you work with a ghostwriter it it really important to remember that there is no such thing as plugging a flash drive into another person's brain and so you still invest a lot of time it is not time typing but it is time and you have to choose the right ghostwriter you need to do interviews to find the right fit for the right collaborator 100 and it takes time and etc and of course it's a money investment and they were like I wouldn't mind the money like I wouldn't mind like spending money to make money that part's fine what what I think I don't have is the time it would take to write such a thoughtful book because they want to be really thoughtful and then and then they were really honest they were like like I talked to my friends like about how much money they make off their books and some of these are good book these books do well and I can make more money off these other products you know and I was like look I'm not trying to convince you because again I never want to convince anyone to write a book because it's so much work that you have to want it like that's the number one condition you have to desire it it has to be a big ambition of yours but I did mention you know some things I say to people which is I understand that there are other products that could give you more immediate money now just remember successful books have longevity successful books can be converted into other things there's sub rights obviously there's also things like speaking engagements after you have a book you know you can get so much out of that there is something about the credibility of a look like I have this I have a spiel right like I have my little spiel too I always talk about how it's a it will get you into stores that you never thought possible do you want your name in a Target or Bones and Noble a Walmart like that brand recognition that you can then translate and parlay into other industries you just can't get a product another product into a Target a Walmart anyway I have my whole spiel anyway too yes and it's so true I think and again I love that this person did their research again it speaks to their intelligence speaks to their critical thinking I am in awe of that and I applaud that. I'm obviously disappointed selfishly, but like I'm happy that they're doing what's right for their goals because hey, everyone has done goals. Good on you, so much respect. I am sad though, just like as an agent, I'm sad, but also as a reader, I'm sad. I was gonna really love this book. I, in this respect, I'm an optimist. I will keep hope in my heart, the embers of hope glowing that perhaps they will change their mind someday because it is an evergreen book. It's not like this book needs to come out now. situation yeah and you can always like somebody can take a course and turn it into a book later maybe if sales start to kind of take a little downturn then you just turn that into a book so lots lots of options there but yeah that is a bummer but yeah not unheard of speaking of busy people are busy though yeah let's talk about fun things when is your event in new york because i'm excited for that i know it is so the day this comes out i will be in new york ej's one bad mother event yes it is tonight if you're watching this live we've nearly sold out i think there's i think there's space for the venue which is the second floor at the strand is like 150 and we're almost sold out which is amazing so i will be there my assistant will be there obviously the author's friends rebecca traster who's doing the in conversation so if you're in new york and there's any tickets left make sure you head to the strand tonight um and yeah i'm just excited for her we got so much great buzz for the book the excerpt and the cut has come out we still have two more excerpts to come out and we have our great review in the new yorker and yeah all the good things buzzing for that one so yeah that's so exciting i mean again i think i think that by the time this this airs it'll be sold out but hopefully there's still a couple tickets that people can grab go grab your tickets yeah all right so we get into some posts that intrigued us this week where do you want to start let's start with the funny one i want to start with okay yeah okay okay this one is for this account called Stacy McEwen Books. S-T-A-C-E-Y-M-C-E-W-A-N Books. And it starts off being like, I want to talk about toxic behavior. So it's like, oh my gosh, toxic behavior. Toxic editor behavior. Yeah. So we, so right away you're like, oh my gosh, toxic behavior need to stop. And then it's just like hilarious things like, what if I want to change my character's name halfway way through. So yes, there are three chapter 17. And it's just a really, really funny viral post. Creative license. My favorite was this metaphor doesn't quite make sense. We'll excuse a girl for catching a vibe. And it's just okay. I want to thank given everything that's happening in our world. And I don't have to specify what's happening in the world. People know. Thank you to funny people. You guys make the world so much better. Thank you for funny people. You are making me laugh. You're giving me like all the good hormones in the middle of the dumpster fire pirate ship world we live in. I love you. Thank you. Yeah, that was great. So check that one out. It's gone viral a bit, so it might have popped up on your feed. But excuse a girl for catching a vibe should definitely be a catchphrase. Love that. Maybe it is a catchphrase, and I'm just too old to know whether it's a catchphrase. So I really enjoyed that. The next thing we had on the list was there's a couple different Instagram posts that caught our eye. The first one I wanted to highlight, and it refers back to a sub stack. To be honest, I haven't clicked through to the sub stack yet. I don't know if you did CC, but we can refer back to it. But Laura McCowan is the Instagram handle at Laura underscore McCowan, M-C-K-O-W-E-N. And it's called How Much I Made on My First Book. And, you know, I, you know, I love a transparent post. I think, you know, as agents, we can't be like, here's what happens with our clients. And Laura isn't a client. I obviously want to be clear, but it's so nice when we can just shout out people who are doing the Lord's work, as they say, to share things. And so this is a Substack post that you can go to, lauramcowen.substack.com, how much I made on my first book. So she starts with some stats. The average book in America sells 200 copies per year and 1,000 copies over its lifetime. She has some quotes about, you know, a traditionally published book, you know, anywhere from 3,000 to 5,000 copies over its entire lifetime. It's common. 10,000 copies is considered solid slash successful. 25,000 copies, very strong. 100,000 copies is rare, usually requires, you know, platforms and book clubs and word of mouth. And so and then she talks about the money. So she said, I received $20,000 advance for her book, which is called We Are the Luckiest, The Surprising Magic of a Sober Life. Shout out to her book. And then she talks about the money going out, right? So the agent got 15% off the top of every check. She also hired a freelance editor at 7,500 and a freelance publicist at 15,000. So she says, I don't have to do those things, but I wanted to because I was anxious as hell. And it was my first book. And she also paid 80% of a six city book tour. And then in September, 2022, it crossed over the a hundred thousand copies sold and is now over 150,000 units of print ebook and audio, which is amazing. So if you want to read more she just throws to her sub stack which is at lauramcowen.substack.com so if you want to do a deep dive into that but yeah i just i just love that because it highlights a number of things right potentially you know what the average number of copies are sold the average you know or an example of an advance also talks about for very commonly which we've also just talked about when suisi was talking about the content creator a lot of people have to hire somebody whether it's a freelance editor or publicist and the different ways that authors spend their money. And as you can see, this adds up to more than the advance. So she was out of pocket at this point to invest in all of these things. And we know that with books, there's usually a third of the advance on signing, a third on delivery and acceptance of the manuscript, and then a third on publication of the book. And she would have had to pay out a bunch of these things before that amount of money comes in. So then you have to have this amount of money to set aside for your book in order to cover all of this. And none of this, of course, is requirements, but she's also trying to show, hey, this helped me sell a lot of copies. And this is a common formula that authors use, which is some of them, especially if it's like a business book or a nonfiction book, they're in the hole a little bit to do all the promo. And then they're kind of able to accelerate those copies. But obviously we want to be clear that we can never assume those things. But I enjoyed that post. Yeah, I really enjoyed it too. Love it when, like, to be clear, this is not expected of anyone. Please no one feel pressured. But I do love a good money post because it is something that as agents to Carly's point, we can't share ourselves. A few things stood out to me. First is she mentions that her book sold like 150,000 copies, which is like so great. And yet if you look up her numbers on BookScan, it's a tiny fraction of this, which is so like, it just makes me like, ugh, BookScan. You know, like the fact that people attach such importance to BookScan, like don't get me wrong, I love the platform itself because it gives me some sense of, you know, sales. It's really actually kind of addicting to look up books there. But the idea that it's so different, like looking at her book scan number versus her actual sales numbers. And we know that book scan doesn't capture everything, but come on, it did not capture even close to 85% of sales. So that was really interesting to me. And then the other thing that I will say, and it is an angle about this post. So she was inspired to do this post, which again, Carly and I are thankful for, because when her paperback came out, she started promoting this book again, because that's what authors are supposed to do. And she got a little bit of pushback from quite a few people saying things like, I don't understand why you're promoting your paperback. You're already a bestselling author. Why are you doing this? Or someone else saying like, so you want me to buy your book again? Because I already bought the hardcover. And just people complaining that authors are promoting their work. Now, I want to say something. And to be clear, I speak only for myself. I do not speak for Carly. I don't believe in putting out anything negative in the world, not because I'm a good person, but because I believe that things come back. And I believe that you put out good, even when you're feeling angry. So when I'm feeling really, really angry, and sometimes I'm really, really angry, I remind myself, like, feel the anger, ride the wave. But when it comes to thoughts, be intentional and put out love, because then love will come back and love will reach the person who is making you angry. They need love. Everybody needs love. I am making an exception. People who complain with authors, people who go to authors and send them DMs and make comments and say things like, where are you promoting your book? I am making an exception for you. I wish that you live in a world with no chocolate. Okay. That is my wish for you. That is a very mean spirited wish. I stand by it. I hope there is no chocolate left in your world because that is such a mean thing to say. Apologize, apologize and stop doing that because it's not okay, authors should promote their work online. They absolutely get to. The fact that it's rubbing you the wrong way says so much about whatever message you've internalized from like weird things. I don't know, women can't promote their own work or creative work isn't about profit. I don't know what you've internalized, but I would go to therapy and I would think about it long and hard. And yeah, I do wish a world with no chocolate for you. I just do. 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One of the things that's been on my mind actually all week since we talked about it last, which is we kind of started a conversation about how much information there is on the internet and there is so much information on the internet and so I don't know I was thinking about my answer I was like was I happy with my answer because I do think about you know after we record the show I'm like you know was everybody gonna get something from our conversation because when I started in publishing you know they're just the internet wasn't a place of resource like that you know maybe there were some organizations for example you know so this is back in I started publishing in 2009. So there were resources like SCBWI, which is the Children's Society of Publishers and Illustrators. So if there was an organization, there would often be resources, but they were also usually behind a paywall. You know, you could buy the copy of, you know, writers and artists, you know, the Writer's Digest guides. So like there were select resources, but that's one of the ways as an agent, which I've talked about before, that I was able to kind of create my own agent brand and, you know, communicate to writers, which is, you know, showing them all of the different ways that the way the business works and kind of break it down for them. And, and I started blogging and on social media and so forth, which is, you know, how I started to build that following. And anyway, I just think about how, how far we've come in that amount of time, which now there's so much information out there, tons of grifters, tons of completely legitimate resources as well, And how overwhelming that would be for a writer now to think it's not about locating the right place to find the conversation. It's also about like parsing through what conversations are worth having. And I also imagine it being such a time suck for you guys of like, you must go down these Reddit rabbit holes of like, you know, where do we go to get this information? So I was thinking, you know, if you, Cece, were trying to learn the business in 2026, what would you do to, or it could also be like when you're learning anything, you know, in the year 2026, like where would you go to do a deep dive on a topic? Am I learning the business as a writer or as an agent? Because the answers are totally different. I would say writer because I'm thinking about our listeners. Okay. Then I want to first caveat something. And again, it's a hot take perhaps. Actually, I don't think it's a hot take at all, but maybe it is. I actually think that, again, it's my perspective as an agent, learning about the business of publishing is really important for all writers. If you want to make it in an industry, you need to know about the business, duh, 100%. But first work on your talent. I actually think it's putting the cart before the horse to learn about the business first. Like I see the slush pile, we all see the slush pile, we all have different slush pile, obviously, but like every agent I talk to says the same thing, which is the overwhelming number of books in the slush pile are not where they need to be in terms of the skill, right? Talent for writing online level. I genuinely think that the first thing I would do as a writer is make sure my talent is where it needs to be. That takes years. That is something that's really important. Once I'm confident in that, and yes, it can be done in parallel to a degree, but I see people really stressing themselves out. They go, I don't know enough about how to promote my work on social media. Your work is never going to be promoted on social media because you're never going to get traditionally published because your talent is nowhere where it needs to be. I'm sorry, it's mean, but it's true. And first go do that. Your talent can get there. You can do it. But first you've got to work on that. So that would be my first comment. Like first I would work on writing, writing, writing, writing, storytelling, storytelling, storytelling. Once I was like, yes, I'm good. I actually think that I learn best my brain in a structured environment. I don't go down Reddit rabbit holes because I'm so protective of like my attention span. I would, of course, listen to you know, the shit no one tells you about writing. I feel like that's, that's biased on my part, but we, I do think we actually offer good content, but I would look for structure, one initial structured course or program. Like I'll give you an example. My colleague, Sharice Fisher, she teaches introduction to publishing, I believe it's called at city college. And again, I know my brain. I know how I like to learn. I like to learn with structure first, and then I can go down rabbit holes, but not in a bad way. Like, right. Then I can like, kind of like fill in the gaps, but I would like to begin with a course that would teach me things like, what are the roles in publishing difference between acquiring editor, editor, there's been literary agent and scouts. What about publicists? What do they do? Like, I remember being in publishing school and literally learning things like the difference between publicity and marketing. Yeah. It's obvious that there would be a difference, but I wouldn't know how to say it before I, before I was in school. I remember learning, this one was mind-blowing to me, YA. Because I remember as a reader, I didn't read YA. And I remember thinking, young adult. So it must be like people in their early 20s. That is what a young adult is. No, YA means teenagers. I would learn jargon, lingual. I would pick up on all these things and learn what are the resources that the professionals use. So for example, people rely on BookScan. Great. Deep dive on BookScan. People rely on Publishers marketplace. Great. Deep dive on publishers marketplace. Like what are the trades? People love Publishers Weekly. Like what are the resources that the actual people doing the job use? And I would make sure that whenever, whenever I take a course or listen to a podcast, and again, this is what my brain likes. I would be learning from people who are doing the job, which ties back to what we talked about last week. Like I learned best from people who are actually in the trenches doing the work. And I would try to take an in-person course, even though I'm a homebody and I never want to leave the house, but I would try to leave the house and like kind of force myself out of my comfort zone because publishing is a business of relationships. It's one of the reasons why like I'm not worried about AI replacing us as agents and editors and all that because it is a business of human connection. And so meeting people, you know, being able to like actually meet people is so important and it can be in a virtual setting as well. But I do think that I would probably try to start with an in-person setting and then move to a virtual setting. I would also network a lot on social media. Like I would have like a bookstagrammer account or something, you know, because I would, I read books all the time anyway. I would post about books and I would try not worrying about follower count, but like just reaching out to people and being like, Hey, you know, like I love this book. Do you love this book too? And, and kind of connecting with people because so much of what we learn is the whisper network. Like whisper networks are important above all. And I say this all the time, but truly I practice what I preach. Yes. There's an overwhelming amount of content on the internet, a hundred percent. But I actually think that this is where people with critical thinking can rise and stand out and set themselves apart. Like, you're not going to get discouraged by the overwhelming amount of content. You're going to make a plan and you're going to stick to that plan and be really intentional about what content you're consuming. And never 100% trusting anything anyone is saying, not even the world's biggest expert. Someone saying something. I remember being in publishing school and my professor, very accomplished, was saying the average word count of books. And I remember being like, that doesn't sound right to me. So I looked it up and she was not right. And I told her and I was like, look, I'm sorry. Can you help me understand what you mean by the average word count? I guess this is what I'm saying. Like use your own brain to fact check what people are saying. You know, I think it's important to do that. Yeah, that was my rant. I went on a rant. How about you? What would you do? That's great. No, no, you answered everything. I mean, I don't need to rant now. I think you kind of touched on this, but just to go a little bit further on that, which is conferences, right? There are so many writers conferences out there. But how do you know which ones are the good ones is a huge question mark, right? So that's where that whisper network is going to come into play. Just because a conference is local doesn't mean it's the best conference. And I will guess we'll say something controversial. Now I'll go on my rant, which is if you want something to be a career, you have to invest some form of capital in it, right? Whether it's your human capital, your labor, your financial capital, there has to be an investment made because there's a lot of people, Cece and I have met them. at conferences and more online where it's such a hobby and it's, and it will always be a hobby because people are not making that leap to treat it as a potential career. So they're not financially investing in it. They're not, you know, figuring out ways to make it a part of their life and take a step to transition from what they were doing before to the career that they want to have. And there's a huge cognitive shift there that has to happen. Super important. And so while I am very empathetic to people who are working multiple jobs as it is, holding down the fort at home, have kids, there's no time, and it could just be right now is not your season of life. And to make this transition to this career, I'm not saying money grows on trees, but I do firmly believe. It's like when we went to university and college, when we were 21 to figure out what we want to do with our lives, there is an investment there with our time, with our money, with our attention span. And that's that mental shift that has to happen. Yeah, you know, I posted about this on Instagram not that long ago, is writing a hobby or a career for you. I asked that question. And so many people were like, oh, it's a hobby for now because I don't make money yet. And I'm like, no. Before I ever made a cent as a lawyer, it was a career for me back when I was still spending money to one day hopefully graduate hopefully pass the bar hopefully get to practice law And of course it different because as long as you a reasonably intelligent person who studies you probably will you know make money as a lawyer Whereas with writing you might never make money. But that's also your decision to go into a risky career. No one has to write a book, except for my clients. Clients, if you're listening, you do have to write books. But no one has to do this career. Like I am thankful people choose it every day, but please remember it's a choice because it is all right and and rant okay so next all right now i want to tell you guys about what's in the substack tomorrow which will be followed by a really great instagram post that cc and i both loved so substack tomorrow what you guys will be getting so sarah t dubb author of honeybee mine pens an excellent essay titled know your rights setting boundaries with beta readers to keep your writing joy intact she says in my writing life finding trusted writing partners has been vital. Having critique partners and beta readers gives me a way out of my own head and let someone else play with my characters and stories. It brings new and interesting perspectives, pushes me in new directions. I've been lucky to work with incredible readers and writers who have helped me in my practice of writing, as well in the hard-fought internal work of what it means to be a writer. But giving and receiving feedback isn't always easy or natural. Giving feedback is a skill to be cultivated and practiced just like writing, and a feeling to do so harms writers who are bravely sharing their work. So that's a great essay you guys can get in this tomorrow's Substack. I love that. I'm also excited for Ashley Bennett's essay. She's the author of Muscles and Monsters. And essentially her essay is all about like she self-published a monster romance. You guys, please picture this. Please picture yourself self-publishing a monster romance. And then guess what happened? Guess what happened? She landed a deal with her dream big five publisher, not just a big five publisher, but her dream. And yeah, I want to know like how she got from point A to point B. This is going to be a really good essay. So I'm excited to read that one. All right, then we also have Eleanor Shearer, author of Fireflies in Winter, a thoughtful essay called Journey to the Past, Four Steps for Bringing History to Life in Fiction. And finally, we have Josie Lloyd and Emmeline Reeves, author of You and Me and You and Me and You and Me, Spill the Beans in today's author video about collaborating writing with your spouse. was I can't even imagine what that would be like so I'm excited about that one love that oh my god that sounds exciting okay should we talk about the post we liked yes yeah so I mean you found this one before I did but that was like we have to talk about this one we actually both found it independently and and right like you told me but like my point is we both liked it before we even talked about it yeah yeah yeah okay why don't you summarize this one for us Cece so okay so Yadon is that how I pronounce his name Yadon? I would say so. Yeah. So Yadon Israel, he's an editor at Simon & Schuster. He has a great Instagram account. I love his account. You should follow him. Y-A-H-D-O-N. That is his handle. And there's a little blue checkmark. So it's easy to spot. He's essentially, it's a post about how you should think about the agent author relationship. And so he's saying, you know, writers, you're approaching agents only thinking about how to get a deal, but it's really helpful for you to essentially think about what that means for the agent. And he talks about how agents are working in his words for free until they sell a book. And he's makes it clear that in many cases, there's no salary, no retainer, no guarantee, and that they only get paid if the author gets paid, which means that an agent is essentially making a bet, right? A bet on your manuscript, a bet on the likelihood that their labor is going to turn into a commission. and he then breaks down a couple of examples like for example if your debut makes x this is what your agent will get and i thought that was really it was really interesting to see an editor mention that from an agent perspective i once remember an editor telling me i love it when agents understand what we're up against we editors and i think that the flip side of that is hey i really think it's cool when editors understand what agents are up against i will offer a few opinions on a few things he said. And this is not because I disagree with the overall message, because I don't. I agree with everything he's saying. But there are a couple things that he says that I'm like, hmm. And actually, you know what? Laura did the same thing. So he wrote, agents typically earn 15% commission on what they sell. So if your debut sells for 20,000, the agent makes 3,000. I just want to remind everyone, and this is not, again, not a pet peeve. The agency makes 15%. Agency. What the individual agent makes is different. People are always forgetting this. Like I have friends who work in publishing, like editors, and we're going out to lunch and they're like, oh, so you sold that book for X. That means you made Y. And I'm like, no, that's the total commission, right? Like different agents make different commissions depending on their structure. And by the way, it's so worth it to have a portion of that go to the agency because it's awesome to belong to an awesome agency. It is a thousand percent worth it. But please remember that. The other thing too, he said, when you work with an agent, you're entering into a shared risk agreement. They, they being the agent, invest labor. You provide intellectual property and you both hope it converts. And again, it's not that I disagree. I would just build on that. I actually think you're both investing labor because especially when I sign a client that I feel like needs a lot of editorial work, I am asking them to do work before we even go out with it, before we even know if it will sell. And so it's really important that the client trusts me and loves the vision. Like never make changes that your agent asks for unless you really love the vision. I give my clients a lot of work, guys. Like I know this. And so there's labor on both sides. I also think in a weird way, there's intellectual property on both sides, although only one of them will be sold, which is the author's intellectual property. But the more time I spend in this career, I realize that we are accruing a framework, which I know does not count as intellectual property for legal purposes. But, you know, Carly, you're actually a really good example of this. Like you used all the teachings and lessons and wisdom that you accrued over years to build your awesome course. And that is intellectual property, right? So it's in a sense, your clients get that, right? Whenever they talk to you, whenever they exchange information with you because they're getting your brain. And so I think I would also, I guess, make that distinction. The one thing that really stood out to me, and it could just be, you know, my agent, whatever I call them, my agent antenna. I was curious to hear what you thought about this page, because I was reading through the comments and everybody, I should say, is so thankful for this post and everybody loved the post. There are no real critiques of the post, I will say. But the page that says different agents experience this financial risk differently, which directly affects how much energy they can afford to put into you. I bet that was such an interesting way to frame like the different levels of where an agent might be in their career and their time. Because I also think like baby agent versus now that I'm actually way more efficient with my time in my brain space. And so something that could have taken me longer and time labor might've taken a lot longer, but I have turned that into an energy source that is faster and processes quicker, if that makes sense. So anyway, I found that really interesting. And also maybe reflect a bit on like, I do the same job as I have always done. I do it differently. I do it faster, arguably probably better over the years by just having more experience. And I really, I thought that was a really interesting distinction. It is. And it's kind of like a paradox because a simple way to look at it is younger agent, more hungry, has more time, will invest more because your sale will mean more to them. And older agent, less time, has big clients, doesn't need your book. Like that is a, I'm just going to say it, that is a simplistic in a bad way to look at it. Because it's not that these things aren't true. It's that they're not the whole truth. You know, like there's so many other factors that matter. Yes, baby agents hungry. There is something so cool about that. Carly and I have said this on multiple times. We will always remember the people who invested in us in the very beginning. I am nowhere near where you are in your career, Carly, but I have been doing it for years now. And so for me, I remember when I first started and the people who believed in me, so much gratitude. And it can be a very smart investment, okay? But first of all, I'm not less hungry now. And I know you're not even. Like, we're not. Two, there is a lot of like wisdom and experience that comes with time. And also, and again, this is shoot the shit. We have to be honest. So much of it is also financial anxiety. agenting was my second career so it was different for me but like if you're a baby agent straight out of university chances are you have more financial anxiety you might have privilege in other senses you might have like really awesome parents who are willing to like support you and stuff which is awesome let me live in their basement for years so i could do this oh okay you're talking about you okay i was like what my point is like that's fair right like you might not be in like a hard hard strapped situation or anything like that but but it is different when you have frankly money helps, you know, like when you're a situation where you're making enough money, you get to buy back your time in so many other aspects of your life and you get to have more time. You just do. And then there's also like the personal thing, like how much do they have going on their personal lives? And is that stuff that recharges them? Or is that stuff that drains them? So they're just, they're just too many variables, frankly, too many variables. I think it's actually a really fair question for an author to be like, you know, Hey, how does communication work with you? Hey, how do like, they want to know what kind of level of attention they can expect from you. I think these are totally fair questions. But I would encourage people to really, really use your critical thinking when it comes to things like that. And don't think things like young agent, more time, older agent, less time. No, like it all depends on too many things. And you have to really analyze all the variables. Yeah, I think my neurons fire faster now, from just the repetition of doing this job for so long, which is very interesting. But thank you to Yudan for this interesting posts that inspired a lot of questions because it's definitely worth checking out. And I can see almost a thousand people already liked the post. So again, some of you guys have already seen it. All right. Well, that's all we have for today. We did have one DM and our pet peeves, but I actually have to run because I have a call in three minutes. Do you want to try and hammer out these pet peeves really fast or should we save them for next week? No, we should save them for next week. Pet peeves require time. Okay. So we didn't get to everything today. We have to get back to our jobs, which is doing our jobs. I have a call with a client and I know Cece has to get back to work as well. So we're going to save that for next week. Thank you, everybody. Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query Cece, please refer to the submission guidelines at www.wsherman.com. Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency, and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co-host, and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.