Hey, it's Latte from Radio Lab. Our goal with each episode is to make you think, how did I live this long and not know that? Radio Lab, adventures on the edge of what we think we know. Listen, wherever you get podcasts. If you're a fan of Michael Mann's heat and its many, many descendants, then you might be into Netflix's Nemesis, an action-packed high series. It's co-created by Courtney A. Kemp, the mastermind behind Starz's hit franchise Power, and it's about the blurry lines between criminality and the law. The stylized set pieces, double crosses, relationship issues, daddy issues. This show has a lot going on, but it all goes down smoothly enough. I'm Aisha Harris, and today we're talking about Nemesis on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. This message comes from CBC. What are the Big Five farm animals? Potato cooking methods? Guys named Paul. The Big Five brings together comedians and celebrity guests to debate the Big Five of absolutely anything. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. Joining me today is Vulture TV critic Roxanna Hadadi. Hey, Roxanna. Hey, thank you for having me on for this. Great to have you. Also with us is journalist and host of the movie review podcast Seated, Traybel Anderson. Hello, Traybel. Hello, hello. Yay. I'm so excited to talk about this with both of you. So Nemesis stars Matthew Law as Isaiah Styles, an LAPD detective chasing his white whale, an elusive crew of skilled robbers who killed his partner in a shootout during a heist. He's convinced the same crew has been responsible for a string of recent big time robberies, but is having trouble ginning up support for this theory amongst his colleagues. Of course, he'll stop at nothing to prove the pattern and nail these guys. The Beverly Hills robbery. It fits the pattern. We've been to this before. Isaiah, there is no pattern. No pattern is the pattern, Jimmy. Four perps, at least two of them black. They had high in high level targets changing their MO every time so that we don't connect them. On the other side of this equation is Coltrane Wilder, played by Alon Noelle. Coltrane is an upstanding businessman and pillar of the community by day, while secretly serving as the ringleader of that band of thieves at all other times. Isaiah and Coltrane turn out to be connected in more ways than one, and as soon as they connect those dots for themselves, they enter into a propulsive game of cat and mouse. Nemesis is streaming on Netflix now. And Roxanna, I'm going to start with you. I know that we both kind of talked about this a little bit offline before we got into this taping. I know how you feel about it, but please share with everyone else. How do you feel about this show? My smile right now as you went through this intro was so big because I'm sorry to Courtney Kemp. I did not recognize her game before. Heat is my North Star, as you know, if you've spent like five minutes with me. Yes. And I do think a lot of heat mimicries either just hit sort of the same beats without the soulfulness of the original, or they stay so outside of it that it doesn't actually feel like heat. It becomes this other thing, right? All of this is to say, this is the best heat evocation I have seen in a very long time. And that's because it does so many things that are different. We're going to see some criminal masks that are a little similar to the heat masks. And we're going to get a line that sounds like the action is the juice. We're going to get the tension of these two men essentially living for each other, right? They each need the tension and the pressure that the other provides. So all of the heat stuff is there. Bless it. It's done perfectly. But there's also this incredible nighttime soap energy in this show, which is really propulsive, very fun. The characters, especially the female characters, are some of the best that I've seen in this genre on television in a long time. We didn't talk about the character of Charlie yet, but she is played by Safina Brown. She's a fence. She is incredibly ruthless. So there's just all of these new textures to the show and these new places that it goes in this kind of genre that I found highly entertaining and frankly incredible. Sorry to Aisha. I kept sending her messages being like, oh my God, have you gotten to this part yet? No, I love that. I love it for you. It really does bring me joy whenever we are able to talk about something that people are very excited about. And I agree with you about all of the sort of key comparisons. And I really can't wait to hear, Trayvout, how you feel about this show. So please let us know. Yeah, I think I really enjoyed it as well. I like that you mentioned that it kind of has this nighttime soapy vibe. Yeah, because it absolutely does. And I think that's one of the interesting parts of the show. I think for me, once I got over the fact that it was basically a copaganda in urban crime drama drag, once I got over that, I was like, oh, this is actually really enjoyable. And it actually does kind of meet that high bar that I have for my copaganda in a post 2020 world. Right? It's got that strong core cast that you've already mentioned. It's got some shoot them up bang bang. It's got some, you know, Robin Hood, steal from the rich people and give to community, right? It's got some staring at a corkboard and trying to piece of crime together. Some daddy issues like you already mentioned, which is another way of saying character development. Yes, I really enjoyed it. There was a lot here that kept me coming back episode after episode. Yeah. So Roxanna knows that I was a little less high on this initially. And when we first started talking, I had only seen, I think, three or four episodes at that point. The copaganda thing is definitely something that I have kind of bristled that over the last, you know, several years. And I say this is someone who, you know, one of my first shows that I became obsessed with as a, I was too young to be watching this, but as a child who was at home and was not out doing things on a Friday night around 13 years old, it's like, hey, Lana or SVU, what's this? And then I proceeded to watch Lana or SVU for decades. And am I, am I keeping up with it now? No, but I understand the appeal of these things. And so I think my bar was a little bit higher. I was just like, I don't know about this show, especially with black people, especially with all these things happening. Right. As it went on, and after I got over also just how kind of very hamfisted and wrote the writing and dialogue seemed to be, I was able to give over to that because the soapiness is the draw for me. It's Tyler Perry meets being Mary Jane meets like, it's like bringing in the best of those elements in a way that feels fresh somehow. I don't know, Matthew Law, aka techie boyfriend, Ava's techie boyfriend, O'Shawn, Abed Elementary. I mean, he's a beautiful man. And his way of speaking is just very, I don't know, there's something very sexy about it. So I was just like, okay, I will buy you being a troubled cop who like has daddy issues both on both sides of the things as a father, but also with his father who plays a really big role in this as well. His name is Amos Nightmare Styles played by Mo Irvin. He is the other side of the fence, as we might say. I gave way to it and it consumed me and I have to say that. Now, I am curious. Now, Roxanne, you said that this is your introduction to Courtney A. Kemp as a creator, but Trayvill, have you dabbled in the world of power? Because I have a little bit, but it's been years. So I'm curious your perspective. Yeah, I'm like loosely familiar. You know, I was there in the early years and then I said, I've got to tap out, you know, after a point. But I do think that special kind of storytelling that is a power that is a Tala Perry's beauty in black, there's a slickness there that I think Courtney has has perfected. And in the very first scenes of the series, you feel that, right? I feel like you feel a very similar kind of energy and world that we felt on power or any of those other shows, right? BMF and the other. Snowfall. Yeah, snowfall. All of those. And so it felt familiar in that way. And there's a lot of familiarity, right, that you will recognize in terms of maybe story lines or certain kind of story beats, but it also did so many different twists on it that I felt like, like you said, Roxana made it feel a little fresh, you know, made it feel a little different and made me go like, okay, I see how you're taking kind of like preexisting tropes, right? And trying to flip them on their head in a lot of ways. And I think something that really worked for me is, and we talk about this a lot. Streaming shows can struggle with pacing. An entire first season of a streaming show can feel like at the end, we're going to get to the idea and the show is going to be the thing in season two. This show from the opening minutes from that first heist tells you exactly what kind of show it's going to be. It's going to be very action forward. It's going to be very sexy. People are going to tell lies to each other, but also stare directly into each other's eyes and tell the truth in a really ominous way. But the point of the show is right there. And we don't do like flashbacks. We don't do like an episode that's about a tertiary character. We don't do all of these things that I think we've gotten used to. You really see how Courtney Kemp like built a weekly episodic release franchise. And my understanding is, before she did Power, she was a producer on The Good Wife. She also understands that glossy, weak-to-weak storytelling. It's just really refreshing to have eight episodes. Each episode is a distinct chapter of the story with a demarcated beginning and end. That in and of itself. I'm like, what a treat. What a delight to watch television. I know. I did worry that we were going to get that. The only time we really get a flashback, and it's so short, is we see when Isaiah's partner was shot. It comes back and forth. But we don't see everything leading up to it. It's just literally him in the immediate aftermath of him trying to rescue his partner right after he's been shot. Who is played by Tristan Wildes, one of the many wire alumni in the cast. That was another thing that was so funny to me. And I commented this on social media. But as soon as one popped up, it was like, oh, there's three more. It's like, here's Herk, Dominic Lombardose. Here's Chris Bauer, who played Frank Sabaka on the wire. Brother Muzon, Michael Potts. Michael Hyatt has one scene who was Brianna Braxton as the therapist. So I was just like, oh, the wire, I love it. Like this little mini reunion. Sometimes these characters are in the same scene together. And I'm like, how Herk and Brother Muzon are having a conversation? What's going on? The show is deep with so much talent and so many people who are able to elevate this sometimes very, like, you know exactly what they're going to say, like, give me your badge. Like, that literally happens. There's a scene where he has to turn in his badge. It's like, of course, of course, if you've seen any from Beverly Hills Cop to Lethal Weapon, like, you've seen some version of one of these scenes in here. And yet, so often we talk about originality and whatnot. And I do feel like this show is kind of like a Bruno Mars where it's like, is it doing anything truly new? No. But does the song sound good? Yeah, I'm into it. Like, I'm enjoying it. And I think you both have put it well at like, what Courtney A. Kemp is very good at doing and her ability to remix and put her own spin on things, even when it feels very kind of like, we know what's going to happen here. And I think also it's just like, occasionally kind of funny, like, and intentionally funny, not like you're laughing at this. But like, there's a scene later on where Coltrane and Isaiah meet in a cemetery. And it's like, all of a sudden, Matthew Law, as Isaiah, like, he's gone from being like determined to like, very braggie, braggadocious, like, as if he was Kendrick Lamar circa 2024. And he's just like, dancing all over this guy's grave. Literally, they're in a cemetery. That was when I was like, oh, okay, it took me several episodes was like, Oh, okay, I see, I see, I'm in now. And maybe that's just me. I know you all were in sooner than I was. But that was when I was like, locked in. Isn't that the scene where Isaiah calls Coltrane black history? Yes, yes. It's incredible. It's a great scene. It's a great written scene where he's explaining like, everything you're doing, black history, your pristine jet magazine cover lifestyle, black history, your hood Ted Talks, you'd be giving the kids in the community black history, your little secret crime clubhouse, black history. That is chef's kiss. Yes. There are those moments where there are just these great one liners. And the other thing I want to say, which again, was like very fun and shows the awareness everybody has of what they're doing is that the first two episodes are directed by Mario Van Peoples. Yes. Coltrane is dressed like Wesley Steips's character from New Jack City for Halloween in that opening scene. So again, I also just think it's like, it's such a treat to watch a show from people who love the genre they're playing with. And that's also just very entertaining and fulfilling as well. I also think, you know, to go back to a point that you made Roxana earlier, the female performances in the show are really what locked me in, in particular Gabrielle Dennis, as I believe Candace is her character. I mostly know Gabrielle as a comedic girl. Black Lady Sketch Show. Black Lady Sketch Show is a prime fabulous example. And then she's also popped up in like, you know, recurring roles in different like black sitcoms over the years. But there's so much gravitas and so much like, I think, expertise and skill on display in terms of her range in this show and the range of Matthew Law, of Alon Noel, of the two sisters who you mentioned earlier as well. Charlie and... Yeah, that actually really it collectively it elevates this into something that isn't, you know, a straight to DVD kind of production as it could have been. Right? And it gives you something that makes you, you know, want to beg for a second season. And I think that that's difficult these days. Yeah, if I'm being honest, and I don't mean this necessarily as shade. This is your second time throwing shade this episode. Okay, Bruno Mars got the stray bullet earlier. Okay. Look, I enjoy Bruno Mars. Come on now. But no, there were moments where I was this feels like a direct to video movie circa 2000. And again, this is the soapy sort of Tyler Perry-esque or even on occasion there were moments where I was like, oh, did Master P do this? I don't know. Like what's going on here? But there was something also like nostalgic about that that I appreciated. And I did really enjoy sort of the way that the women characters are folded into this, including, you know, we've already mentioned Cleopatra Coleman as Ebony Coltrane's wife, and then Gabrielle Dennis's Candace Isaiah's wife. And the way that interacts. And then of course, as you've already mentioned, Roxanna, Charlie is Ebony's sister. And Charlie's like the big, big bad, like it's, you know, it's Coltrane, but really she's the big, big bad. And I think there's something very interesting about that. And to the extent where there's a moment later in the season, I won't spoil it, but I think she does something truly horrific. And then like it seems like the show doesn't really interrogate that in a way that I was just like, what is going on? Like so it does seem though, based off of the way season one ends, that they are anticipating hoping for a season two. And so maybe they'll pick up on that thread again later on. But I was just like, I had to rewind and go back. And I was very confused. And then when I figured out that it was what I thought it was, I was like, you're not going to follow these breadcrumbs? They're sowing a seed, Aisha. They'll come back to it in season two. Okay. And I think there are a lot of those. There's this detail between the sisters, which we're alluding to a little bit. You find out that some members of Coltrane's crew had military experience. I feel like that's going to come into play again, who they met in prison. Again, the dialogue is very layered in terms of just being like, oh, here's a thing that you should remember for the future. It'll come up again. And I do think that is great. The other thing I would say is I recently rewatched Forever. And I appreciated that this show felt like, I don't know if they filmed in Los Angeles. I hope they did. But regardless, it felt like they were making extra care to get certain things right. Absolutely. And all of this is a long way for me to say there are Iranian gangsters in this show who actually speak Farsi. And that is so LA. That is so LA. And I was so happy to see my people represented as criminals. So that was also a great time. But all these details, I think they build a full world and a full world that we're not always used to seeing in this kind of television show. Yeah, it absolutely captures the vastness of LA in a beautiful way, and particularly black LA, I think. Yeah. And also filming is always happening in LA. You'll always see certain kinds of shots in different shows that are set in LA, you know, the Watts Towers, the Hollywood sign, etc. Yeah. This show has those and also so many others that I haven't seen in a host of productions that are set in LA. So I thought that they were also really interesting. And this goes back a little bit to the point you were making Aisha in terms of the kind of early 2000s nostalgia. It's very waist deep. It's very paid in full energy, you know, like it is absolutely has that vibe for sure. Yeah. Yeah. But elevated production, like very clearly Netflix production. Very clearly. We love that. We love that. As I said, I was very kind of mid on the show at first. And you know what, having finished it, it won me over. And not just because Matthew Law is ridiculously good looking. Well, that brings us to the end of our show. Raksana Hadadi, Trayvel Anderson. Thanks so much for being here and for tolerating my casual shade at the show. Thank you, Aisha. Thank you. This episode was produced by Hubsa Fatima and Mike Katz, edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello, Kamin provides our theme music. And if you're not following us, do that right now. Just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour Plus is a great way to support our show and public radio because you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor free. Go find out more at plus.npr.org slash happy hour or visit the link in our show notes. Thanks so much for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris and we'll see you all next time. This message comes from Critics at Large. Culture moves fast. Opinions move faster. Critics at Large from The New Yorker takes a smarter look at the books, films, and ideas everyone's debating. 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