Next of Kin | 5

A warning to our listeners. This series contains discussion of mental illness, suicide and domestic abuse. With Susan, I tried to find her and I couldn't. It must have been about three years ago that I found out she died in 96. I'll never be able to share with her my kids. I'll never be able to share with her my experiences. I'll never be able to share with her, sitting on a campfire. And that really hurt that did. That hit me bad. And I didn't really know what to do. I really don't know if she killed herself. She was there one day and then I said she didn't show up. Have we uncovered a conspiracy indirectly? Too many unanswered questions. She was scared that she was alive after they said she was dead. I would love to just have you tell us who you are and what your relationship is with Sue. Okay. Well my name is Stuart Perkins. I am the brother of Susan Pat Perkins or Susan Knight or Sue Knight. Who ever you like to call her? We lived in England and we lived at two pickers down cottages which was a 400 year old farmhouse. This is where it all starts. They've moved from Bedford, a husband, wife and a child. That'd be Mum and Dad and Susan. And they moved down to a place called Curbular Sookin down to the coast. And little Stuart comes along. And before that, Susan's got all the attention and everything's the only child. Oh excellent, everything good. I turn up 11 years later. So an hour old, I had a major operation and they said I'm sorry Mrs. Perkins, but he's only got 20% chance of living. Then happens the tips to the hospital. So Susan is being like out of the side and everything. And it goes a little bit pear shaped from there onwards. Because Dad clears off, finds someone else. Mum's left to raise these two kids. One is doing everything to go and find Dad. That's Susan. And one is just being ill. Hello. And we're struggling. How old were you all when your father left? My mum was pregnant with me when he left. Because he kindly came to the hospital and visited with his girlfriend. But it's like two people didn't get on. You know that's it. Move on. Next. I don't feel anything bad or anything. I never knew the guy. And also I don't have a leg to stand on the nut one. It did give me a rather hard start for life. Because in the family, there has been mental health. I mean, my mum had post-natal depression. I think that's where I got the fractured skull from. But we're not going to that. But I can understand it. I don't condone it, but I can understand it. You've been taken out from where you worked and everything. You've been taken away from all of that. And you've been dumped in a little tiny cottage. Hardly any amenities. And you've just been, OK, bye. And now you've got to live on social security, which is a patents. Pay rent and everything and have food on the table for everybody else. No, it just didn't work. You know, it was bad. My childhood was was a nightmare. And then my mum, when I was eight, she got cancer. At this point in time, there's a stepdad moved in. And so it's me and mum and this other gentleman. At this point, Susan is now moved out. She's gone. She's, I've had enough. I'm gone. Out. And occasionally she comes back and it's like she'll stay for the week and then she'll be off again for a bit. But she was there. Every time there was a problem or anything, there was always a phone call or something with her. Is it OK and everything? That was me. Is it OK? Does it need anything? Is it, you know, whatever? So she kept an eye out, but there was, she had her own life. She was, she was searching for her father and everything. I can't remember if she found him or not, but she'd left school and she was off looking for dad. Were they close when Sue was a child? Who and her dad were very close? And that's where things went, pear-shaped. When mum and dad didn't have a good thing and it was like, even though she got on well with mum, I think there was daddy's little girl sort of thing, you know. When he wasn't there, it was like, peace-missing. Can you describe Sue like what she was like? Sue's from was really good. She was very artistic and very focused on stuff. You could give her a problem and be done, you know. Done. She was like a supermodel as well. She was a really beautiful young lady. She really was. And then in 1980, I think it was, she moved over to America. She married a guy called Wilmot, I don't know his name. He was in the Air Force. I don't think it lasted very long. But then I think it was 82 or 83. I got in contact with her again. She left a phone number. So I had a phone number and I got in trouble for that over here. It was like sort of five pounds for two minutes. And we were on there for about 20 minutes. But that was when she was manageress for the Eastern side of America for good years. And then after that, she got as far as she could and then she quit. And she moved to Texas. And the last time I knew that she was working in a hospital there, there had a administration. She would have got to the highest point of that one and then quit and moved on again. Because we're in England, we knew that she would get a job. And she'd be in it for, I don't know, maybe six months to a year. And she'd seriously, she'd work her ass off and she'd get from, you know, cleaning or whatever to management. And I think it was, you know, if you can do it, I can do it, you know. So learning all the different bits and pieces that I've got, what I want to know is what you've learnt about her. Y'all, it's the next of kin. Amazing. Okay, wait a minute. I just realized I don't actually know how all this happened. Have we ever find Stewart in the first place? Yes, this is why I've invited Heather to join us today. Heather, do you want to tell us the story of how you tracked Stewart down? Yeah, sure. So I am Heather Jernigan, the executive producer over at Castle View, which is a video agency and documentary film company in Austin, Texas. And Steve Barckstale, who you all know is the executor of Suza State, is actually an old friend of my dad's. So all of this really started because Steve told my dad about Su and all the super weird things that happened while he was trying to sort through her estate. And then my dad told me I was fascinated. So I've been doing a very similar investigation as you, Jenna, alongside and before to try and figure out who Su was. And the thing that I was most obsessed with the whole time was finding this next of kin. And so I spent a lot of time on Facebook and I first started looking for Kevin Inkersel, because I knew that she had married a Kevin Inkersel. It was on the marriage certificate. I found two or three, but the one that really stuck out to me was one that lived in coldchester. So I messaged him and I got nothing back just crickets. So I looked on his friend list and I found a carry Inkersel and that turned out to be his daughter. So she offered to connect me to Kevin, which was amazing. I mean, he had he had a lot of knowledge of Su back when she was in the UK and all about their marriage. And then he mentioned in that conversation that he knew that she had a brother named Stewart. And that he thought that he had moved to the States, but wasn't sure where he ended up. So then I decided I had to find the brother. So I started Facebooking stewards. And I found one in California who actually looked to me like he could be related to Sue. And I messaged him and he immediately wrote me back and said, yes, I had a sister named Sue in the UK and freaked out. Oh my God. Yeah. And so he wrote back and he was a little wary. Like he asked me a bunch of questions. Like can you confirm Sue's middle and last name, you know, the date that she was born, just so he could know we were talking about the same Sue. And once I did that, he wrote back and said, that's her. I'm in a little bit of shock, but you can you can call me. And he was just lovely and really eager to hear anything that I knew about his sister and what happened to her. It was, yeah, I was a really kind of a crazy moment in this story for me to find him and be talking to him and be telling him information that he didn't know. Yeah, I bet. It does sound like a crazy conversation where both of you were equally curious. He had as many questions for you as you did for him, I'm sure. Yeah. And I was, you know, it was sort of tough because, you know, it was a sensitive subject. I think he knew that she had passed away, but hadn't talked to her for a long time before then. And I was trying to share the information I did have, but also be sensitive to the fact that, you know, this was kind of a shocking phone call for him. But I was also just dying to know what he knew. How long did it take you to track him down? I mean, this all happened over the course of a few months. I would say I became kind of a Facebook stalker. There's just messaging anyone and everyone I could find with the last names that we knew. All of this sounds so trivial to our 20, 23 years, right? And while I went on Facebook and I searched for stewards, 1996 is not that long ago, but in the age of finding people, it might as well be the stone ages. Unless you had a very sophisticated database tool and you paid a lot of money for it back then, there just would be no way to go about finding someone like this in 1996. I mean, there was barely internet search engines at the time. Do we know when Stuart moved to the States? I think he said, like, in the early 2000s, right? That was what I was going to guess, yeah. That's what makes me really sad about this. You know, there was a next-of-kin search that was very strange in a bunch of ways I'm happy to get into. But the thing that makes me the most sad is that if he hadn't moved to the States until the 2000s, he was still in England when they were doing this next-of-kin search. Like he could have potentially been found. You know, like it's just a kind of sad story of like people knowing to look kind of in the right place, but just missing some really important information that could have gotten Stuart all of this information sooner, which just makes me so sad. I would love to get into the information we do have about the next-of-kin search if I can. Yeah, please. So what I have is this copy of this next-of-kin search fax from Milton Adams office, Milton being the Justice of the Peace for Where Sue lived at the time. And it's kind of a concerning document. And I think it also touches on a lot of us, like, how difficult it would have been for any person to try to find any person, you know. And they went to this consulate hoping to get help. So it looks like he contacted the British consulate in Houston to see if they could aid his office in a search for next-of-kin. And the names that they looked for, there's three of them, it was Sue Wilnet, Sue Knight, and then Sue Ingersoll. But immediately on looking at this very short fax, I can already see some issues with this search. So one, Sue's birth name, Sue Perkins, is not included in this search, which would have been the thing that connected Stuart. And then two, Sue became a Knight in the 80s. So it's the name she died with, which could absolutely be helpful. But it would have not tied her at all to England or her immigration records. And then finally, Ingersoll is spelled wrong, which to me either means that Milton spelled it wrong, or they tried to spell it phonetically from Milton who I assume has an East Texas accent. And so regardless, searching that name, which technically would have been the right name that could have connected Sue to both her immigration records and her marriage records, they spelled it wrong so they wouldn't have gotten there. I mean, it's so hard, right? Because on one level, it's really heartening to know that real efforts were made to find this next-of-kin. But it is maddening to think that a missing name or a misspelled name kept those efforts from really amounting to anything, you know. It's just so frustrating. I also just keep thinking about how unreal it must have been for these people who knew and loved Sue. And in many cases had been searching for her and coming up empty to get a message out of the blue and have Sue basically fall into their laps after so many years. Yeah, I think so. They had all been looking for her as much as we'd been looking for them. And I think before social media, they didn't know, I mean, none of them would have known how to find me or how to find Steve because they didn't know Steve Barksdale was. And Steve didn't really have access to social media back then and hadn't kind of relied on me to do the investigating social media wise to find them now. The craziest thing for me was through Carrie Inkersol. I found Kevin, yes, but she also said, you know, hey, I should also introduce you to Lisa, my sister, because she is the biological daughter of Kevin and Sue. I'm Lisa. I'm Sue's biological daughter. And obviously she was my biological mom. I've always, always known about Sue and that she just went to America. Obviously, my mum had post-no depression and wasn't able to look after me. So I went to stay with my auntie and uncle. And when I was two, they adopted me. They was amazing. The best mum and dad I could ever, ever have been given, ever. Neither of them are here anymore. But they always knew that I'd love to find Sue. My mum always said, if ever I wanted to try, I should be behind me. You know, I've always wanted to find her. And this journey's just been amazing. Yeah, how did you first hear about this project? So before lockdown, I can't remember when Carrie, my sister rang me up one day and said, I've had an email from this lady called Ever in America wanting to find dad. It's about your mum. I was like, what? Give me the email address. I'm going to reply. And Heather and I, we messaged exchange numbers. She spoke with my dad quite extensively. And then she rang me and spoke with me and it's sort of just progressed from there. How did it feel to hear something about your mum after so many years? I was crying. Where you? The first conversation I had with Heather, I come off the phone and I was absolutely crying my eyes out. And I rang my dad straight away. What did you grow up knowing about your biological parents? Basically, it's a very funny long story. But basically they were like two strangers that married for a city reason, you know, kids being stupid kids really. And I came along. Sue had post-neural depression. Just wasn't in a position to care for a baby for whatever however a reasons were back then. And my dad, like he said, he couldn't look after himself. He was just, you know, no more than a kid. I think 18, 19. So obviously I went to live with my auntie and uncle at five months old and when I was two that she adopted me. And that's when Sue came over. And brought me... Tigger! Oh, I love it. He is 42 years old. He is the most dirtiest, decapitated looking Tigger. But he is my most prized possession. He really is. If ever in a fire, he would be what I would come in and get. Him and my animals, saw everything else, but he would be what I'd come and get. He hasn't got no labels or nothing on, so that doesn't mean anything. I used to ride him out in the garden like a horse when I was little on his back. So that explains why he's so dirty and floppy looking. But we well loved, I think we'll say. That's amazing. And she gave that to you when you were two, you said? Yeah, after my adoption went through. That's what I've always been brought up to believe. I was two when my adoption went through Sue came to visit me and she brought me my Tigger. And you said that your dad was in your life though, right? You had a relationship with him when you were growing up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Literally from baby to today. I'm lucky I've got two daddies, no, that sort of thing. Yeah, he's amazing. He rings me once a week or more. And I know he's always at the end of the phone if ever I wanted him. I love that. That's really special. Are you close to your grandparents at all? Or did you grow up knowing them? If you mean Sue's side of the family, nothing, nothing at all. All I knew about was Uncle Stuart. That's all I knew. Which it's amazing now that we're in touch. My niece lived about 30 miles away from where I used to live in England. Never knew she was there. I knew she was alive. Well, ish. Because, okay, Susan, she's 11 years older than me. So I must have been eight or nine because she was about nineteen, eighteen, nineteen when Lisa was born. I remember little Lisa and a baby sort of thing, you know, horrible scary things there. And then Heather says, I know where Lisa is and everything, really. And so I said, can I have her address? And if it's all what I did first is I sent her an email. And then she got back with me. I mean, the same day sort of thing. Yeah. And so we swapped numbers. And then we had about an hour conversation of everything, everything and anything. And then we found out that she lives like ten miles apart sort of thing from where I used to live in England. I probably went past a house a dozen times. So we've chatted and everything. And she's, she's over the moon about it. I'm Uncle Stewart. And it's, that's all I get from when she texts me or emails me or anything. Hello, Uncle Stewart. I've got so and so and such and such. And so I did that. We're doing this. I sent her a load of albums and stuff. And it would have been great times. Good. So basically when Heather told me about him, I was absolutely ecstatic. We haven't physically met. We've met through Zoom. We've spoken on the telephone. My dad says like, he remembers Stewart being in knee high socks and shorts, you know, blazer for school, that kind of thing. When Heather had told me, I believe it's the Saturday, the Sunday morning, I'd emailed and then Stuart emailed me back. And then we ended up phoning each other. And it was just, it was just amazing. My daughter come downstairs like in the morning, I've been getting up and I'm on the phone to my uncle Stewart in America. It was amazing. I love it. Oh, that's amazing. Have y'all been in touch since then? Oh God, yeah, me and Stuart message all the time. He's my own Konami. He's crazy niece. Heather, I'd love for you to tell us about what it was like to connect Stewart and Lisa for the first time. Yeah, I love talking about this because it was really an amazing experience. And I felt really honored to be able to connect them and even be a part of that meeting. And you could just tell that they were both so excited to meet each other and really eager to have family. I mean, it's one of those moments where you see two people that just were connected. Like their heartstrings were connected. And it was so clear. And that connective thread was Sue. And they've continued to talk since then, which is one of my favorite things about this story. It sounds like they talk all the time. They message each other all the time. I'm Facebook friends with both of them. And I'm seeing them comment on each other's posts. It's really awesome. And in fact, I even think Stuart sent Lisa like an online mix tape of his favorite music. And she sent him one back. Oh, God. So it's just really, really cute and amazing to see them connect. I love that so much. That's the sweetest thing I've ever heard. It was definitely the most satisfying, rewarding part of the whole project for us. I mean, it really felt like, okay, this was all leading to something worthwhile. The other amazing thing about Lisa, you know, she had not seen a picture of her mother. And all we had at the time before you guys dug up what you did, we had the license. They're her driver's license. And I was like, this is all I have. I'm so sorry, but it's a photo of your mom. And she flipped out. I mean, she was like, I totally see why people say I look like her. And she do you have anything else? I mean, even like her handwriting. I mean, she was so hungry for anything that we had. But I do remember that moment of being like, man, we're showing her the first photo she's ever seen of her mom. Yeah, the photos we got from a couple of folks that had him. We shared with her and sent him over to her. And yeah, they do look alike. Like when you see Lisa, they do have a they really do can tell it's his daughter. Yeah. What did your dad tell you about Sue moving to America? I was always told that they married. They got divorced. And she said to him, I'm moving out to West Virginia with Chuck to his parents ranch. When I'm settled, you know, I send you a letter of me addressing and find yourself out that like I'm a visit, you know. And that was it. Yeah. And do you know how Kevin and Sue met? So he met my mom because he was helping his friend out. And he took her out for a drink. And they spoke about my dad's girlfriend at the time. A very long story cut short. She ran my dad. My dad went around as I met. And my dad would said something about whatever. Something horrible. My dad said, Oh, do you do a five married. My Nana said, you'll marry her. My dead body on the Sunday and on the Wednesday. They got married. It's laughable. It is laughable. They was married for 51 weeks. Wow. 51 weeks is kind of a long time for such a for such a spur of the moment decision. Crazy for crazy for kids thing to do. Yeah, very much so. But in that time, obviously in that time I come along didn't I? Susan was very good with kids. So Lisa got adopted. And then I can't remember the boys name, but there was a boy as well. But he got adopted soon after as well. Sue had another son. Yes, a son. I don't know his name. How old? What's the age difference between him and Lisa? When would that have been? I think he's older. I think he's maybe a year, maybe two years older. But what I remember is I remember going to... It's like a convom, but it was where unmarried mothers would go to have their child. And back in the 60s and everything, it was a stoning offense. Yeah. Don't be so serious. It's okay. It's funny that it was laugh. There was also a son. There was also a son. I just can't believe these things kind of keep happening. These like big, wow, is about Sue's life. How old would Sue be then for that? That's very young. She would have been a teenager for sure. Yeah, I mean, if it's in the 60s and Sue is born in 52, it could have been... I mean, she could have been very young. And it sounds like she was sort of sent away to have this kid, like Stuart remembers visiting her in what he basically called a convent, like an unwed mother's home is what he said. So I mean, I wonder if we could track it down. And I mean, maybe find him. Yeah, I mean, I don't know about finding him, usually adoption records are not necessarily public records. But I can look into it. Do we know when Lisa was born? I believe 1972. Okay. And Stuart said he thought that the the son was like one or two years older than Lisa. Is that right? I'm just wondering how accurate Stuart's timeline is. Yeah, I was wondering that myself actually, because it was really kind of sweet. While we were talking, he has done a lot of research himself. So he was pulling out papers to like give us details of what he had learned. But even during our conversation, I could tell that some of the dates he had were wrong. Like, for example, he said that Lisa was born in 1968, but we've confirmed with Lisa that she was born in 1972. So yeah, it seems like his timeline might be a bit off. So is it possible the son was born in 68? Then do you think that's a good starting date for me? Yeah, that's sort of what I was thinking. Okay. I agree. I think there's a big possibility. The son is the child that was born in 1968. That would be more than a couple of years before Lisa was born, but not too far off. But that would make Sue born in 1952. That would make her 16 or 16 or 16 or 16. Yeah. What else does Stuart know about this son? He didn't know a lot. Honestly, well, he gives a pretty specific description of the home though, right? Yes, he did. He said that it was in Colchester and that in Colchester, there's a castle and you can't miss it because there's a tree growing in the middle of the castle. And then if you go down the hill, it was on one of those side streets and he said that there's it's not there anymore, but there's still a plaque about it on the building. Oh, well, great. Then I can find some sort of historical society. I mean, the plaque had to come from somewhere and maybe we can go that way. I think it would be amazing if we were able to find out who this child was or even just, you know, confirm their existence. But I also worry about, rather, I wonder if he even knows he's adopted, if he's been looking for his biological mother, you know, what's this other child's relationship with this? Yeah, I was worried about that too. I feel like it would be incredible to give answers to a person who is actively looking to find out about their birth mother. I feel a lot differently about blowing up someone's life who doesn't know or isn't actively searching, you know, agreed. Did Sue have a wedding and did you go? I didn't go to any of the weddings. I don't think any of us did. I think it was just a courthouse one. Well, over here, it's called a registry office, but you call it a courthouse. Same thing. You just go in, sign a book of paper, a couple of wait and a say, is buying happy Christmas. And then if you go, and you probably get drunk, the skunk somewhere in a bar or as we call them pubs. Yeah. I've noticed over here that your beer is very much like making love in the canoe. Yeah. Yeah, like making love in the canoes, fucking close to water. Sorry. Can't see that word, can I? You could say anywhere's the key word, honestly. We never got to any of the weddings or anything. I think it was because mum was too bad. I mean, it got bad. When did she get sick? How old were you? I was eight and she died when I was 16 and it was a long time. This is my mother's marriage certificate, James, that would be my father. He was 27 and she was 25. And this is back in 1952. Going back to those days, when the divorce happens and suffer, it didn't bode well for the family. You were a bit frowned upon because you were a married mum or unmarried mum and you've got kids. Right. How old were you when your mum remarried? I was about eight and that was to Harry Hobson. How they met, who knows, don't know that bit. And you won't be able to ask him either because he died in 84. And you said Sue and your mum were pretty close? Yeah. The relationship with mum was pretty strong. They both used to do things together and everything. They used to argue quite a bit but it wasn't a slammer door sort of thing argument. It was over dad, why he wasn't there and what she'd done for him to be out and everything. And I don't think it was that at all. I think it was him that, well, it could have been either of them. I don't really know on that one. One of the things that really stood out to me in his interview was he just sort of casually throws in that his skull was fractured at one point as a child. And he didn't really elaborate but it, it sounds like he was sort of alluding to that being related to his mother's postpartum depression. Like maybe something happened. Yeah. And from Sue's perspective, she would have been a child. I think she's 11 years older than Stuart, right? So that's something that she would definitely have memories of. I mean, to me, having heard some of this for the first time, it kind of ties into that whole idea of Sue not talking a lot about her past to anybody. And kind of having some, like maybe more layers of trauma there than I initially realized. Yeah, it's interesting because Stuart is very open to talking about it in general. But like when it gets into specifics, he's sort of like, that's not really important. You just need to know this, you know, or he's very quick to say, what did he say? He said, I don't condone it, but I do understand it, which I found very generous. Honestly, I did think that was pretty amazing too that even Stuart, when he was talking about family members who were cruel or mean or made decisions he could be upset about as a kid. He didn't judge them for that, which I thought was really honestly really beautiful. And sort of to the same point, I feel like Lisa was very generous talking about Sue as well, you know. And I'm sure that for both of them, that has to do with the experiences that they faced throughout their lives. You know, I think Lisa has been able to come to a place of grace and understanding with Sue. I'm curious if she has always felt that way. But yeah, she has so much space and grace for her mom. Honestly, like... Yeah, one thing, you know, when I first reached out to her, I would hear from her like every couple of days and always very apologetically. Like, I'm so sorry to bother you. I know you're busy, but I have this question about my mom. I have this question about my mom. Like she, like for the next few weeks and months, I kept hearing from her just she would think of something that she wanted to know and see if I knew it. But I had the same experience with her. She was just really lovely and gracious and overwhelmed, but mostly excited to hear about her mom. When do you think you first had the impulse to go looking for Sue? I've always wanted to find her really, but more senior school think. And I've just thought, you know, I've always known my dad, I want to try and find my mom. I was bullied for being adopted, you know, kids can be horrible, can't they? When you're told day in, day out, what's it like knowing your mom and dad didn't love you, that sort of stuff? That kind of hurts a little bit? Yeah. So you end up avoiding those people, but a cost and that cost was my education. I just felt, you know, what I really want to find my mom, I really want to find my mom. I tried the Salvation Army, but they couldn't help. I contacted Long Lost Families actually, probably about 12 years ago, something like that. And I did have a big conversation with a researcher and she just said, you know, you do realise there's like tens of thousands of people. That ring in, etc. and I never heard anything again. So that was kind of like bugger if they can't find her, who on earth will, because I typed her name in Google. Nothing, nothing at all. What were you hoping to find? See, I think, as I've got older, yeah, I'd love to find my mom, but then in the back of my mind, what if she'd made another family? What if she hadn't told them about me? Could I have destroyed that? And that wouldn't have been fair. You know, she was only young when she had me. You know, I was a young mom. Life wasn't always great. So yeah, there was always that in the back of my mind. But then the selfish part of me was, I don't care. You know, she's my mom. I've want to know why. What are the things that you think are most compelling that you've heard about so so far? From what I've heard, nothing adds up. Nothing at all. By all accounts, she was extremely, extremely mysterious. But not any of them. My dad included. There's got a bad word to say about her. You know, because like my dad said, you know, over the years, he's often thought, yeah, I wonder what that soos up to these days, you know? So yeah, no one lived out a bad thing to say about her. In the course of this process of us researching into soos background and trying to find out everything that we can, what are you hoping to learn about soo? Everything, everything, there's nothing, no stone unturned. For me, it's knowing that she spoke that she had a daughter in England, because that kind of makes me think she obviously thought about me too. I know I wasn't just given a why. There's only one person that can answer the questions and she isn't here to answer them. But she was only young. But to hear that she used to say, oh, I had a daughter in England. At least I know that she's still thought about me. I know you've spoken to Steve. At least that one time. Have you spoken to him at all besides that one call? No, that was, I think that was the one, but that's it. Got it. I know that he is very confused by the things that he found in Soos house after she passed. And he's sort of convinced that she was either in witness protection or involved in some sort of, because you know, he got those calls from like the CIA and Scotland yard asking to take possession of her body. I was wondering how, like in your understanding of Soos as a person, how likely do you think that that is? How reasonable does that, or not reasonable does that seem to you? It could be. Really? It could be. I mean, if she got from being a cleaner to a manager and not very long at all, and she was fairly smart, and with the computer notice board and stuff, back in the 90s is where you first had the computers come out. We're first personal computers. So late 80s, early 90s, for her to have computer stuff, you could be paying a fair amount of money or be given it from someone. Now, if she's in witness protection or she's doing something for the government, which back in those days, they used to get people out of college, Hi, come and work for the CIA. I mean, she was very well liked, as she said, but kept right close to herself about stuff. No pictures on the walls. Well, we haven't got pictures here either. I just haven't put any up. And we didn't have a lot of pictures at home either when I was back in England and everything. There wasn't like family pictures and portraits, and before I moved out and everything, we did have scrapbooks, but when I went back to get them, they were all gone. So we didn't know where they went. So you couldn't know family ties. Nobody to implicate. Nobody to blackmail about. Nobody to, you know. So if you don't do this, we're going to get your family. Yeah, good luck. You know? Who knows? I wouldn't put it past her for the stuff being that she was smart. You know, you couldn't take one over and she was smart. One of the things that Steve realized is that the time in which she would have left England was sort of around the era of a lot of IRA activity. And I was wondering if that struck a chord for you at all, or if there's any family history of involvement or witnessing anything or anything. There has been words said that my father moved over to Ireland, but it's unconfowned. It just could be coincidence because I don't think that she did anything to be over there or whatever. I think that was just coincidence of her meeting the American guy in a hyb switch. And because she married out of the country and flew in with him, she automatically came into the green card, and then getting citizenship would have been the next step easily. It would have just happened. There has been words said that my father moved over to Ireland. And in another conversation, he said Northern Ireland, which definitely made my ears perk up because one of Steve Barck's deal's theories is that Sue somehow got mixed up in the IRA and basically had to flee to the United States. Now, I don't know if it's true that her dad lived there, and honestly, it doesn't sound like Stuart is sure either, but it did make me raise an eyebrow. Do we think Bob, do you think that someone from the UK would call Northern Ireland Ireland? Oh, yeah. Definitely. But where would he get that idea? I don't know. Hey, do you know where her father ended up? So the tricky thing here is that in both the UK and in Ireland proper, census records are not released for 100 years. Great. So I can't really tell you where he may have been or wasn't. What I do know is that based on the very few records that I do have, he was always living in either like Essex, Salisbury, London area. Stuart mentions more than once actually this guy named Wilmot, who was in the military and who sued married after Kevin, but before she came to America. And actually, he seems to think that's how she got to America in the first place. Yes. And then Lisa says that her dad told her that she was going on a plane with Chuck to his family's farm in Virginia. Actually, I believe she said West Virginia, but honestly, I think that's a mistake because Kevin definitely said Virginia in the email we received from him. I've called every farm in Virginia with Wilmot anywhere in the title. I've called a bunch of Wilmits that live in New Hampshire because there's a huge farm in like Vermont or New Hampshire that's all Wilmits everywhere. And then I've called someone like Vermont. There's a guy in Arizona who's named Chuck Wilmot who has a farm in Vermont. And I was like, well, you're British. You don't care about our states. Virginia Vermont, it's all the same. I can't find a Chuck Wilmot in any like Air Force records. I can't find a Chuck Wilmot. And that's, I don't have all of them, but like, oh, the ones I have publicly accessible, I can't find one that fits everything we know about him. So something we know is wrong. And I've tried every combination I can think of of like, what could be right and what could be wrong? And I still can't find them. So I'm just at a complete loss. I've got nothing. And like I don't, you know, unless somebody pops it out of the blue that knows what happened or we can get more information on like who the heck is Chuck Wilmot? Is he a real person? Is it Chuck? Is it Duke? Is it Bob? Is it Jack? Like is it something she, you know, like Chuck feels like a very American name to pick? So like maybe it's something in there. Yeah. The Chuck Wilmot thing is weird. And he could have been made up because Sue, the reason we have that name is because Sue told somebody. And so if she was running away, if she was leaving, that'd be an easy, easy thing to tell people. Yeah. Like an intentional misdirect, wrong name, wrong place. So even if they were looking for her, they couldn't find her. Whoever they is, whether that's her family or someone else who she didn't want finding her. I now have this construct in my head of what day did Sue drop off the face of the earth? Because they were in touch to some degree, even when she got to New York, right? Yeah, they had one phone call during that time. Which to our knowledge was normal, right? It wasn't. I'll never see you again, Stuart, right? As far as I know, he didn't mention it as being a good my iPhone call or anything like that. Or anything even charged, right? I mean, so like that suggests to me pretty strongly that she dropped off the face of the earth after that. For whatever reason, I don't mean to belabor this, but I do feel like this is a significant moment in Sue's life when the family ties are completely broken, right? Well, I guess the question is, did she cut off contact or did they fall out of touch? Because we've talked about this before of how hard it is to stay in touch pre-social media. This is a really thin line. Like if you're the one who moves and your family doesn't move, that feels like an intentional choice on your part to no longer keep in contact with them because their number theoretically hasn't changed, but yours has. So how would they be able to contact you? Yeah, and I want to agree with Hayley that it's very plausible explanation that they just fell out of touch, right? Like, doesn't necessarily guarantee something strange happen or that it was completely conscious. Nevertheless, I'm sitting here thinking the whole reason we are here is because of this moment, right? Because when she died, Steve couldn't find the next of kin. And the story unfolds from that point. Yeah, wouldn't it be kind of wild if it wasn't intentional if it was just, oh, I've grown and I don't know, I don't know. I'm busy, I moved, you know, I've got a lot going on. Yeah, for sure. I also just want to toss in to this conversation that anyone who has lost touch with someone knows that the longer you wait, the harder it is to bridge that gap again. So it's possible that she just felt like enough time had passed that it was too late or too hard. When was the last time that you saw her in person? The thing was about 11. She took me to the boarding school. We're not looking nice boarding school later. It was for behavioral challenges. Like the kids I look after now. My job now is I do graveyard work for a child services. So I look after kids that have had serious problems. Once they get to us, they've been in the system a couple of years. So all the stuff I went through as a kid, I can relate to them like it's like butter on jam, you know. I know what they're going through. Of course, I can also see the lies that they give me as well. That's awesome though. That's a beautiful thing to do. I must have been about 11 or 12 and she took me in there and I think. And that was the last time I saw her. There wasn't any sort of thing. We just, me and her had a fairly good relationship. I mean, I'm still not very good at keeping contact. Terrible, terrible at it, you know. How did you learn that she had passed? I was talking to somebody. And I knew that her name was Wilmot. And so this person, done a search, came up with that. It was, yeah. One in 52, died in 96. Wow. How did that make you feel? I was, it was just worse than anything, you know. I'm never going to see her be able to show my kids. I'm not going to show her that I actually made something. I'm not going to be able to, you know, there's nothing that I can share with her. You know, like when you go back and see your mum and you say, Mum, I've done this and mum's really proud of you and everything. And that's not going to happen. I don't get that happy bit, you know. With a lot of things, I'm very broken. There's a lot of that that's really, really broken from childhood, from right now. There's stuff that I've brought all the way along in my life. Stuff that you can't even, yeah. And it's not good. You wouldn't be able to tell people because it's, it's stuff that's too, too painful. And, yeah. That's, but anyway, next question please. Who do you think Sue was and what do you think happened to her? If you had to guess right now. If I had to guess, I would have thought that she was a very, a very quiet person, but a very thoughtful person. I would have thought that she was one of these people that was very nice, but you didn't want to piss her off because you were it, you know. The guns and stuff are that. I think that was all just a way of having some excitement and everything. In England, you can't buy guns and stuff, you know. It's not where you can, but it's, it's really, I mean over here, I think I got the first shot gone in my breakfast cereal. I think she got ill and it just was too much for her. I think she could have been fine one day and just came over the next. But if there was foul play, then I'm sure at some point it will come to light. But as far as going out there on a crusade to avenge my sister's death and whatever, know I'm too old for that. How likely do you think that it actually was an intentional death by suicide? I don't know what her last year would have been like. Knowing about her last year would give you more of an insight to it. You know, we've had, well my mum had postnatal depression. I've gone through a bit of depression when I lost my second wife and everything. So if she's been on her own and she's got depression, she could be lonely and could be, could be. But on the other side of it, with all the stuff in the house and everything, with the computers and with this, that, and everything, they may even bodge the autopsy. Who knows? I mean, you know, we've seen CSI and everything. You don't know. There is so many variables, but with the way I am and the way my mum was and the way that I've seen her highly unlikely. Because I go to work every day. Don't care what it's doing outside. I'll get up, I do the stuff. I can't see her just giving up. I can't see the, no. She was, she was pretty, she was really intelligent. I can't see it. I can see an accidental thing happening, yeah. But no, I deliberate. I'm going to end it now. Because she wouldn't left any loose ends. The stuff I've got here and everything here, if I go tomorrow, I know where it's going. So if I'm doing stuff like that and where I like, I can see I getting depressed and down and, oh, what life is, and this and the other, yeah. But come to do it. No. I do have to ask, since you brought up that if you go, you know where everything is going, what are your thoughts on the fact that she left everything to her cat? Love me. Love me. That is just, yeah, look. Hey, that's my sister for you. To really piss someone off, I'd say, okay, the cat can have it. So the cat, yeah, I can see this. When you were growing up, did you ever build an image of what your mom might be like in your mind? Now I know what my dad's used to say growing up, he said, you're your mom's double, you are. And nobody had a photograph, not even a photograph to show me. So I just grew up guessing that I must not like my mom. But when I had the very first photograph of her, it was just incredible. I showed my two grandsons, one's five and one's ten. And I said, who's done that photo and the five-year-old went, Nanny? And my ten-year-old said, that's not you, Nanny, but it looks like you. And I said, that's my mummy darling. Next time on Undercover of Night. I am a former CIA officer and FBI Special Agent. I'm an author with a specific focus on the Northern Ireland Troubles. What I do is a lot of cyber security and data privacy work. Somebody had drawn a steak knife and wrote STI-K-E, K-N-I-F-E, and doodle the rabbit. Steak knife was a person who was pretty high up in the IRA. However, he was also a double agent. Would it be possible to remotely wipe someone's computer? There's the thing in the forensic community that is delete, doesn't, and restore, won't. And I think this is how we land in the idea that maybe Sue is some sort of spy. Have we uncovered a conspiracy within our six and the Irish Republic Army? It's difficult to speculate because within the Northern Ireland conflict, there are so many different complex scenarios involving people who then had to run for their lives. What would be some red flags that someone was not in the CIA if they said that they were? Probably talking about working at the CIA. What happens to someone if their cover is blown? Death. There are easier ways to delete data than this. I really wish I had an answer. I have absolutely no idea. What Scotland you're actually involved in all this? Undercover of Night is an Apple original podcast produced by spoke media and Castle View productions. Our writer, host and showrunner is Jenna Brunette. Associate producers are Lucy Huang and Raya Smendoza. Our researcher is Hayley Nelson. Our consulting journalist is Bob Sullivan. Makes sound design and original music by Will Short, with additional music from Universal Production Music, story consulting by Brigham Mosley. Executive producers are Caroline Hamilton, Sherita Lynn Solis, Ted Barnhill, Heather Mansfield, Jernigan, Aliyah Tomcholian, and Keith Reynolds. Special thanks to Stuart Perkins and Lisa Mead for sharing their stories. If you have any information on Soon Night, you can email us at infosoonnightatgmail.com. If you or someone you know needs support, go to apple.com slash here to help for resources. Follow an Apple Podcast. Thanks for listening.