What did Mark make of the BAFTAs?

Earmark. What do the films Die My Love, I'm still here and it was just an accident all have in common.

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This is a setup for another of those terrible laughter lift jokes, isn't it? Which I thought we'd done with for another week.

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No, this is no laughing matter.

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Okay, go on.

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Well, not only are they some of your favorite film recommendations from last year, but they're also all films you'll be able to stream anywhere in the world when you travel abroad. Even in Geo locked territories.

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How's that then?

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And it only applies to those three films you named. That seems odd.

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episode is brought to you by mubi, the global film company that champions great cinema. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there's always something new to discover.

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Yes, and coming to MUBI in the UK this February, we have the brilliant Sentimental Value by Joakim Trier. We reviewed this when it came out. He's the guy who directed the Worst Person in the World film, did really well at Cannes, won the Grand Prix, bunch of European awards and is now nominated for nine Academy Awards and eight BAFTAs. I think it's fantastic, I think it's really moving, really exciting, really funny, but also insightful. And I think Joachim Trier is one of the finest directors working today. It's definitely one of the best films around at the moment.

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To stream the best of cinema, you can try mubi free for 30 days@mubi.com kermodanmayo that's m u b I.com kermitmayo for a whole month of great cinema for free. Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguardista and get

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an extra episode every Thursday, including bonus reviews, extra viewing suggestions, viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas, plus your film

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and non film questions answered as best we can in questions.

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You can get all that extra stuff via Apple podcasts or head to extratakes.com for non fruit related Devices.

2:11

There's never been a better time to become a Vanguardista. Free offer, now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguardista, we salute you. Is this another show from us, then?

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I think it is. It says. It says in the script, bonhomie ensues.

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It's easy for them to write and so slightly less easy to create.

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Yeah.

2:51

Off the cuff, as it were. Although we are naturally full of bonhomie.

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Are we?

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Yeah, I think so. Aren't you? I think you are. Yeah.

2:57

No, fine, fine. I just. I mean, I thought I had a reputation for being grumpy, but. But, no, I'm very happy to go with bonhomie. Ask me what I did on the. The day after. After we'd done the. The recording first thing in the morning

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on Monday for the BAFTAs.

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Monday. Monday was. Yes. Now you say, what did you do? Thank you.

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Oh, yeah.

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What did you do afterwards? So I went off, I did a screening, I did an interview, then I came back, and then I did that program where there's a will, there's a Wake up, the podcast, which you can listen to, and it's gonna go up quite soon. Anyway, it was. It was good fun and I did it. And. And there is a contribution in it from you.

3:19

Yeah.

3:36

So people should look out for it for when the episode that's me drops. It's not just me, it is also you. And you did a very, very funny. Well, strange thing. This isn't a spoiler. You made a very. You made a couple of very oblique exorcist references, which then made me think, have you secretly gone and seen it? And you haven't? Because the whole point is that the joke would stop being funny if you saw it. And then I said to you, did you use AI to get those references?

3:36

I mean, how insulting is that?

4:08

Please. Okay, now, because of the look on your face.

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What did I reply? I replied in capital letters, I did not.

4:12

I did not. All my own work. But then I said, well, how did you know that really obscure thing? Because it was obscure. It wasn't like a, you know, a famous thing from the Exodus. It was fairly obscure. And you said, I know everything.

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Well, I just. I just did some work. That's all. I just did. I did some Elvis work and some exorcist work, and from that compiled a speech which is a eulogy at your funeral.

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A eulogy at my funeral? Yes, that's right, because that's how the way. There's a will, there's a wake program works.

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It's.

4:45

The thing is, you know, it's. It's. You're meant to imagine that you have. That you have shuffled off the mortal coil and. And are now going to.

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Did it make you consider your life choices?

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No. Okay.

4:55

It's just a. It's just a. Just a jokey thing.

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Yeah. It's nice. It's Mel G. And she was.

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She's great.

5:01

She was.

5:02

She.

5:02

She was. I was kind of quite nervous about it beforehand, but she's really good. She kind of, you know, she puts you. She does what you do, is that she puts people at their ease.

5:02

All right. Okay. What was the toughest thing she asked you?

5:09

What's that Simon Mayo like? Yeah, I said it's a. It's all an act. You know, the nicest man in radio is all an act. It's absolutely horrible. Yeah.

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Okay. Well, that's. That seems entirely fair, really. Anyway, that's quite enough bonhomie for item one. Yes, that's item two. Throw to Mark for review lineup. So, Mark, tell us what's happening later.

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Got a packed show in terms of reviews. We have a review of Sir Art, Testament of Ann Lee, of course. I hope everybody heard the interview last week. Epic. Elvis Presley in concert, which is this just huge Elvis movie and Scream 7.

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And we have a very, very special guest, the man responsible for building worlds that make millions cry. In a good way. We sit down with Pixar legend Pete Docter, the man behind Up Monsters, Inc. And Inside Out. I mean, it's just phenomenal what he. What this man has created out of

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his head with all this. It really is as well.

6:03

And what about Take Two?

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Well, remember I, when I was reviewing Secret Agent, I said there is a documentary that ties in with Secret Agent called Pictures of Ghosts and we will review it next week on Take Two. Well, next week is now this week. And we are going to reviewing Pictures of Ghosts, which is the Clayburn Mendocio documentary that he made about Receif, which is the area in which Secret Agent plays out.

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And you can look out for our special episode celebrating women in film in partnership with the people at Vanguard. Now, that's going to drop on Monday, but that's on our YouTube channel.

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Okay.

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So if you. If you just need another fix, then that's where we're going to be. So there's a special show which is going to be on the YouTube channel from Monday. In take two, you get all the good stuff, including five question film club.

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Three questions, you, Majesty.

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Each week we pick a film that's on streaming services. And Mark tackles our five questions. Three questions, you, Majesty, about it and make you sound clever at the pub or annoy your partner with unsolicited film knowledge. Plus, as Epic is out this week, and we won't say this every time, but it's all the letters are capital, apart from the I because it's Elvis Presley concert, we'll have further discussion on our top concert movies in one frame back. Plus questions in which we answer the question, why is Mark's spouse indoors? Oh, it's Frank wu's question. He understands she's a professor of cinema, but why does she not venture outside?

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Okay, okay, okay.

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So, yeah, so let's begin as far as emails are concerned, with where we kind of left off on Monday. Yes, and obviously everyone will be aware of the controversy that came out of the baftas, which is a shame because there's lots to celebrate and lots that went very well and lots of fantastic artists. However, let's just pick up on this story. Steve in Brisbane, long term listener, apparently. Previous correspondent, if my address book is to be believed, I'm sure you'll have far too much correspondence. On the topic of the unfortunate incident at the BAFTAs, I appreciated Mark's perspective from in the room. As you'll no doubt have heard by now, the slur was very audible on the on the BBC's two hour delayed and edited coverage. As a British expat, my instinct is always to defend the BBC from what are generally unfair and disingenuous attacks. So it pains me to write this, but their broadcast was shameful. They did not air the precautionary explanation that those in the theater apparently heard, which Mark explained on Monday and gave no context whatsoever before Delroy Lindo and Michael B. Jordan were on stage. To wear a slur like this on delay around the country is unjustifiable, but the context made it much worse. No matter how well the actors handled it live, it's the BBC who chose to broadcast their humiliation. Meanwhile, John David soon, who's worked so tirelessly to educate the public, is now subjected to horrible online abuse after what should have been a day of celebration for him. All of this was entirely preventable with some minor edits and a thoughtful announcement at the start. An extremely upsetting situation for everyone involved. Steven Brisbane, thank you. So we approached Turette's Action for an official statement. So this is what they said. We are incredibly proud of John as John Davidson and everyone involved in. I swear the film has already raised so much awareness about Tourette Syndrome and the daily reality faced by those living with the condition. The impact it has had on audiences, families and those with the Tourette's community is huge, and we could not be more grateful for the support the film continues to receive. However, we also want to address the negative comments that have surfaced following John's involuntary vocal tics during the ceremony. We deeply understand that these words can cause hurt, and we are deeply sorry to the black community for the harm caused. But at the same time, it is vital that the public understands a fundamental truth about Tourette Syndrome. Tics are involuntary. They are not a reflection of a person's beliefs, intentions or character. People with Tourette's can say words or phrases they do not mean, do not endorse, and feel great distress about afterwards. These symptoms are neurological, not intentional, and they are something John, like many others with Tourette's, live with every day. The backlash from certain parts of the media has been extremely saddening, particularly given how hard John works to raise awareness and understanding. What should have been a night of celebration for him became overwhelming, and he made the difficult decision to leave the ceremony halfway through. This moment reflects exactly what I swear shows so openly the isolation, misunderstanding and emotional weight that so often accompany this condition. People with Tourette's manage their physical and social environments and symptoms on a constant basis. The price of being misunderstood is increased isolation, risk of anxiety and depression, and death by suicide. We hope that those commenting will take time to watch the film, learn about Tourette's, and understand the experiences behind moments like these. Education is key, and compassion makes a world of difference. So that's from Tourette's action, and thanks to them for that. Speaking to Vanity Fair afterwards, Delroy Lindo said that he and Jordan, quote, did what we had to do while presenting the award, but that he wished someone from BAFTA spoke to us afterwards.

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And they didn't.

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I mean, they have now, and BAFTA have apologized and explained, you know, and so on. Can I ask. Can I ask a question?

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Yes, go ahead.

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So there, obviously there are two issues. There's the BAFTA issue and what happened in the theater, and then there's the TV issue, which is. I think we can. We can park. Because it's just sort of unforgivable. There are, you know, there is no justification, and obviously it was a massive up, which has caused enormous.

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No, and. But can I. Can I also add, it's not only that it's. It's unforgivable, and it is a massive, massive up. As you just said, it was compounded by the fact that they did edit Free Palestine, Ola Davis Jr's speech, but they didn't edit out the, the racial slur, which is like, literally, if you were designing, you know, a cluster fruitcake to, to make you to, to put everything in the worst possible context. They did.

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Yeah.

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So here's my question then. So, so put the, the BBC and television thing to one side. I think everyone agrees that that was just terrible. Including the BBC. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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Do you think that given that we know all the things that the Tourette's action of Sentas and anyone who's followed this story knows about this condition, do you think that someone from the organizers, maybe someone from bafta, could have had a conversation, should have had a conversation with John Davidson that went along the lines of, do you think that when Delroy Lindo, Michael B. Jordan stand up on, on the stage, do you think it's likely or possible that you will insult them and use racial slang, racial swear words? Because if the answer was yes, I wonder if there was the second part of that conversation which is, do you think you should not be there for that bit? Because the end result was that even though we know about Tourette's, we know about the film and we. And I've just read out the Tourette's action, the end result was two leading African Americans stood on stage and had the worst words thrown at them. Yeah, that, that's, that's what happened. And that is inexcusable. And I wonder if a gentle and respectful conversation with John Davidson could have sorted that out. I don't know.

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Okay, so two things. Firstly, I don't know. I don't have insider information, but two things I want to say. The first one is that in Steve's email, Stephen Brisbane and Steve said at the beginning, look, I hate criticizing the pbc, but in this case, they absolutely effed it up. The phrase he used was that it's the BBC who chose to broadcast their humiliation. I just want to say that the way that they responded, the way that they reacted isn't excusing anything, but the way they responded. The way they reacted was absolutely one of the most dignified things I have ever seen. And believe me, in the room, they weren't humiliated. I mean, they may have been offended and outraged and all the rest of it. Absolutely. But they were not humiliated. They behaved in a way that was so far beyond, you know, it was like, it was so admirable. It was like, wow, you know, you literally didn't bat an eyelid because you know, they, they did. As Delray Linda said, they did what they had to do. That's the first thing. The second thing is the question that you're asking about. Should the question have been raised as do you think this is likely to happen? Presupposes that. Presupposes that that was an issue that you knew of in advance. Now, I don't know. I don't. I have absolutely no idea whether there was any reason to presuppose that that might happen.

13:45

But given that he.

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No, given that. I mean, if you've seen. I swear there's a thing at the beginning when he gets his MBE in which he ticks in the room and you know, and something offensive about the monarchy in the wider question is that clearly there was a risk involved. And the wider question is, was enough care taken to avoid, you know, to avoid that risk assessment? I suppose that's the only thing. I honestly don't know enough about Turettes to know whether there would have been any way of predicting that that would have happened. And of course it's very easy to be wise after the fact that. But it does appear like when you ask the question, when you pose it in that way, the answer is, well, yeah, there seems to have been some form of risk assessment failure because as I said, I'll say it again because it's the thing that I took away from all this. Michael B. Jordan and Delroy Lindo behaved themselves with such amazing good grace that somehow in the room they almost, you know, managed to deflate. I mean, everyone was shocked by the word and the way that they reacted was just like, wow, you know, that is unbelievable. But yes, there is clearly a question about should that situation have been allowed to arise in the first place. But I just don't know what the. If there's any way of knowing in advance what's a trigger, you know, what causes anxiety. Because, you know, I mean, I've spoken to John Davidson when he's not in an anxious state and it's. But, you know, and that the texts aren't happening at that time.

15:12

Yeah. So I'm sure people will have their opinion and this will rumble on. And if you want more on the baftas schmafters, which was kind of like straight afterwards.

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So it was straight after. And at that point I didn't even know, you know, as I said, I mean, because everyone in the room was convinced that of course it wouldn't be aired because there was a two hour delay, it was five o'. Clock. Right. We knew that the baftas didn't start going on television until seven. And, and, and when the, when, when that shout happened, it was like somebody was next to me said, did you hear that? I said, I think everybody heard that. And it was like, well, okay, well of course it won't, it won't be in the broadcast. And had it not been in the broadcast, we would be having a different discussion. Now the fact that it was in the broadcast just basically turned, turned a difficult situation into an absolute disaster.

17:04

That show is available on Patreon. Always interested to know what you think. Correspondence Kevin abeo.com okay, so there, there are some films which are, which are out once we stepped away delicately from the baftas. What's out there?

17:44

Scream seven. I can't.

17:59

We, we now know enough. Just, just from the way you said the title of the film. We know what's coming, but please do carry on.

18:02

Okay. All right, so directed by Kevin Williamson from a script by Guy Busick, from a story by James Vanderbilt. So, okay, so I have to do some set up here because there's really no other way of doing this. Okay, so seventh installment in the Scream series starring Nev Campbell, who wasn't in the previous one because the, the offer that they made her, she felt was not consistent with the value that she brings to the franchise. So she was, she was not that. Now she held out, now she's back. So both the previous scream reboots 5 and 6, one of which was confusingly titled Scream, also was going to be Scream Forever. And then Scream 6 were directed by Matt Bertinelli Olpin and Tyler Gillette. Gillette. Gillette. So what they did was they refocused the franchise onto this new group of so called the core four characters which was Melissa Barrera, Jenna Ortega, Jasmine Savoy Brown and Mason Gooding. Sam Carpenter, Tara Carpenter, Mindy Mix Martin and Chad Mix Martin. During the premiere of Scream 6, the co director said, you know, we want to be watching Scream movies whether we're involved or not for the rest of our lives. I don't. But you know, everyone was very keen that this franchise was going to keep on going. However, those directors jumped ship in August 2023 apparently due to scheduling conflicts because they were, they were doing Abigail. Then Christopher Landon who made Happy Death Day. I think Happy Death Day two stepped in then in November and I'm sorry this is so industrial, but there really isn't any other way of explaining this film. In November, Melissa Barrera, one of the core four, was dropped from the, from the new film by producers for comments that she made regarding the war in Gaza, which they claimed had crossed the line into anti. Or it was suggested by somebody crossed the line into antisemitism, which was strongly pushed back on. It was then announced that Jenna Ortega, another of the Core 4, wasn't doing the movie either. And they said it was scheduling conflicts. But she later said the Melissa stuff was happening. It was all kind of falling apart. If Scream 7 wasn't going to be with a team of directors and those people that I fell in love with, it didn't seem like the right move for my career. So now they haven't got the original director and they've now just got the core two. At which point Christopher Landon, who has been brought in to replace the original directors, he goes to saying that this is no longer the film that he signed on to do. So then they go back to Kevin Williamson, who wrote the original Scream and whose previous directing experience includes making teaching Mrs. Singh, which is not a film that you will remember because very few people do remember. He stepped in to direct from that script. And since they only had the Core two left of the new cast, it's okay. What we need is legacy casting. Hence we now have a film in which, alongside Jasmine, Savoy Brown and Mason Gooding, we have Neve Campbell, David Arquette, Matthew Lillard, Courtney Cox reprising their roles from previous films, and then, you know, a bunch of other people. So the new film, Neve Campbell is back, and there's a new Ghostface killer who is now targeting Sidney Prescott. That's Neve Campbell's character, her daughter Tatum, forcing, according to the publicity, forcing Sydney to. To face her past and put an end to the killings once and for all. Yeah, right. It Scream Generations. Here's a clip from the trailer.

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Hello. Hello, Sidney. Did you miss me? Nice little town you found. Hello, you and your pretty daughter. Reminds me of where we grew up.

21:47

Well, you sure know a lot about

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me for another asshole hiding behind a voice changer.

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Oh, I'm not hiding, Sydney. Not this time.

22:06

Yep. So I went back to. To watch my review of Scream 6 just to remind myself who was still around. And when I did, when I searched it, there was an AI summary of my review. Okay. And the AI summary said Mark Kermit's review of Scream 6 suggests the franchise is becoming formulaic, stating that what was once interesting about Scream is no longer as engaging. While acknowledging it is a in quote, total Scream with inventive kills, he finds the meta commentary stale. No, I didn't. I said it was Awful. AI is just talking out of its backside. What I said was, I wouldn't say the franchise was becoming formulaic. I said the franchise had curled up and died in a rotten heap some years ago. And I had got to the point that I just wanted everything to stop. I didn't know who people were. They were pulling people's masks off and there would be a face there. I didn't recognize it, didn't know who anyone was. Everyone who was dead wasn't dead anymore. People could get stabbed 50 times and then still get up and be fine and running around. And I never said, never said it was a total scream. Never said any of those things. So firstly, AI do one.

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Secondly, I don't think AI is going to get that message, by the way.

23:30

No, it isn't. Fine. But you know, it'll say Mark Kermo's review of AI said that perhaps at. Sometimes it was a little bit. Yeah. And the rest of it. Over the years there have been so many killers, so many deaths, so many rebirths that nothing, nothing, nothing matters. All, all that matters now is, is the process leading up to the film. All the arguments, the directors leaving, an actor being dropped, another actor walking out, a director leaving all this. That is the story. Those are the plots of the films. We should stop anymore actually doing any summary of the screen plots, because there aren't plots, there are just industrial notices. In the case of this, we're here again with that cast because of this torturous process of how we got from five and six to seven and. And it's business as usual. So there, you know, they're, they're in jokes. Killer. Oh, it's always someone, you know, there's dead characters coming back from the dead. This time there is AI in the film, incidentally, which is partly why I was mentioning before, there's people getting stabbed in weirdly nasty ways. I mean, it's, it's an 18 certificate film, but you know, and it's. The stabby thing is, I mean, stabby, stabby. Sometimes there's a, it's, there's a kind of unpleasant edge to it. There are references to lesser known Wes Craven where they bring up, you know, people under the stairs. And there's tr. Trick questions about Jason Voorhees again. And there's a discussion about final girls. There's a couple of sort of theatrical deaths. So there's, there's one which is a kind of sub argento thing on a stage with a trapeze flying thing. And there's another thing with a beer pump, which is a very clumsily set up gag. But here's the issue. None of it's fun, none of it's gleeful. I mean, the thing with the first Scream is it was a celebration. This is just like a tax return. It's just like doing accounts. And I'm just astonished that we're still here. If I said this with six, if I had any idea when I did the first onstage with Wes and the cast, when the first Scream came out, that decades later I'd be reviewing Scream 7. And the only thing I can tell you about it that's interesting is how we got to the point of this cast and this director and this writer in this particular construction of things. There's every time Ghostface appears, it goes bang. It's not loud loud. It's not quiet quiet bang. It's, you know, noisy, noisy bang. Noisy, noisy bang. That. That drum beat, bang boom sound to make the jump. Scare work is so tedious. It's so boring. And some of the, you know, some of the stabby stuff is kind of, if. If there was any joy involved in the.

23:33

In the.

26:15

The way these things are staged. But in order to do that, you have to be a really good director. You have to be Dario Argento or you. Mario Bara. Kevin Williamson is not any of those things. And so I. And I'm not kidding, I struggled to stay awake when the amount of stuff going on, I just struggled to stay awake. The only thing I thought when I was watching it that gave me any sort of joy is Matthew Lillard was actually quite, quite good. And Quentin Tarantino is an idiot.

26:15

Well, there you go. So, correspondence@codemo.com scream8 an inevitability, absolute inevitability. We'll be back in a moment with the testament of Anne Lee epic Elvis Presley in concert, and our special guest, the genius that is Pete Docter. Plus, we'll recap everything that's had in the UK cinemas, in the box office top 10, and of course, the always brilliant laughter. Lift on the way.

26:48

Close your eyes, exhale.

27:17

Feel your body relax and let go

27:19

of whatever you're carrying today.

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27:48

Okay, box office top 10, beginning with small profits, which is on the television. So therefore. But we did talk about it last week. Tom and Lester, after your chat about small profits, I watched all six episodes this weekend and felt compelled to share my thoughts. What struck me was how the show feels unique, yet oddly familiar. There's a touch of afterlife, maybe a hint of the Queen's nose or Bernard's watch, but really it just carries that comforting spirit of old British TV where whatever happens, a cup of tea and a chat make things all right. It was exactly what I needed. I'm in a turbulent moment with things outside my control occupying too much headspace. Small Profits was genuinely anxiety disarming, slowing the speeding traffic of my thoughts into one gentle country lane. It's never slow. The tight cast and locations are perfectly realized. And the homunculi even reminded me of Jason and the Argonauts Harpies, though far less terrifying. I'm going to start detectorists this week with Rosie, my dog, as she recovers, please wish her well. Do we? Okay, yes. All the best to your dog. All the best to Rosie With Kate Dickey for Bond. And hello to Jason Tom in Lester.

28:23

Okay, Kate Dickey, Bond is a great idea.

29:33

Number 15. If I had legs, I'd kick you.

29:36

Which I thought was terrific. Rose Byrne was at the baftas and I walked behind her, but I was too starstruck to say, I think you're fab. Also, it must be very annoying if you're at the baftas. You don't want some somebody going, hello, you don't know me, but I think you're really good. But I think I like the film. It is like a panic attack. It is like a really, really anxious experience. A couple of people said, I can't believe that you referred to it as a comedy. I mean, it is comedic, but in that very darkly kind of Safdie Brothers kind of way. And her performance is great.

29:39

Duncan, who says he's from St. Evanage, which is probably Stevenage, but okay. Unless there's a place called Saint.

30:08

Oh, that's very good. That's. That's like Saint Ockwell, isn't it? Or, you know, clam.

30:16

Yeah, just making Stevenage sound slightly grand. Anyway, Duncan says, longtime listener here, usually happy to sit quietly on the sidelines. The Lamb of God episode remains a favorite, but after the week I've had at the cinema, I felt compelled to write in. My wife and I are frequent visitors. Four films a month minimum, sometimes 12. Wow. I often go solo for the more cultural films, largely to spare her complaints about pretentiousness, while I indulge in hidden meanings and arty flourishes. So, a great anticipation. I went alone to an advanced screening of if I had Legs, I'd kick you sitting far too close to the front, a non wife approved seat. I settled in, relieved not to have my usual in house critic beside me. But as the film unfolded, pot smoking, estranged mother, water pouring from ceilings, invisible daughter, therapists therapizing therapizing therapists, I began to feel utterly out of my depth. One man several rows back was howling with laughter while I was still trying to work out what on earth was happening. I nearly fled, but having invested 45 minutes, I stuck it out, eventually deciding the seat was the best part and watching the rest with intermittent eye contact. Well, strangely, though, I'd never watch it again. I enjoyed recounting the ordeal that cinema confusion, escapism, and the odd film that lingers. Later that week, we saw no other choice in IMAX Wife present, both of us grateful for Jason Statham, which is a sentence I haven't had before. Duncan from St. Evanage. Anyway, so he wasn't. He wasn't a fan, but number 10 is number 11 in America's good luck, have fun, don't die.

30:20

Yeah, I mean, I reviewed this last week. It's the Gore for Binsky movie that wants you to think that it's completely anarchic and crazy. And the tagline is, you know, from a completely unhinged Gore for Binsky. And I just thought it was far too corporate for its own good and basically just recycled a bunch of riffs that we've seen a million times before in other films that are all better.

31:57

Josh in Norwich. The film was fine, a blend of Black Mirror and Groundhog Day with a premise that could have been more interesting than the filmmakers ultimate ultimately allowed. Instead, they dropped in a generic action sequence every 20 minutes, which started to feel like pure filler. Game night remains the high watermark for the regular people racing across a city on a mysterious mission.

32:18

Genre.

32:40

My personal hill to die on arrives near the end. No spoilers. The plot revolves around a quest to upload crucial data that will save the world. Sensible enough. Sam Rockwell carries what looks like a USB stick for most of the film. But at the decisive moment, a character reaches for a cable and it appears to be an HDMI cable. A cable used for audio and video, not data transfer. In a film about AI and cutting edge tech, this feels unforgivable. I suspect they avoided using a USB type A cable because realistically our hero would be fumbling to plug it in upside down while the world burns. Otherwise, it was fun if flawed. P.S. i'm sure listeners will write in to say an HDMI cable does transmit some data and you could feasibly convert one to do so. I know, but it's not what it was made or used for. And it was the wrong hawk and he swam inappropriately. But apart from that. Thanks for the info. That's very good on that. Number nine is the moment, which I haven't said.

32:41

This is the Charlie XCX mockumentary. I know a couple of people have seen it, said it's okay, so I will go and see that next. Next week, but it's. It'. I don't know whether it's still going to be in the chart next week, but I'll go and see it anyway.

33:42

Waste man is at number eight, which

33:54

I thought was terrific. I thought was very powerful. I. You know, it was. Prison dramas are an interesting proposition because it is very easy to make a formulaic prison drama. It's quite hard to make one that jumps out. And in the case of this, it did, largely because of the chemistry between the two leads and because it has. It really has the gritty feel that, you know, that it's capturing that sense of claustrophobia really well. So no, I thought it was a very fine movie. Very fine indie film.

33:56

The King of Old school on our YouTube channel says an excellent film. I have a friend who works as a prison officer. He mentioned he was rather impressed with the sense of realism this project.

34:24

There we go.

34:34

I like how the film gets to the point. It's a lean 1 hour and 30 minutes and also how brutal it is. Similar to a film which would have come out in the 1980s, which no one went to see. Prison films are not new in cinema, but this felt refreshing. Very recommendable.

34:35

There we go. Well, that's echoing exactly what I said. And I'm completely on board with that.

34:48

Number seven here, five in America is

34:52

Send Help, which I enjoyed enormously. It was funny. When we're talking about Scream, I said, there's no sense of glee. There's no sense of joy. It just feels mechanical. Send Help is the opposite. Send Help is gleeful. And again, Sam Raimi is a great director, and Kevin Williamson is no Sam Raimi.

34:54

Number six is Cold Storage.

35:12

Yeah. So do we have any mail about Cold Storage?

35:15

We do not have any mail at all. Okay.

35:19

It's. I mean, I thought it was just, like, clunky, and. And I had no hopes for it in terms of. I mean, this is it. This is its first week. This is it. I think next week it'll be gone. It's just. It's just not good enough.

35:22

Okay, that's fine. Secret Agent is at number five. Number.

35:39

Which is so good. So good. And if you're not a subscriber to Take Two yet, then make sure you do subscribe, because this week in Take Two, we're going to review the documentary that the director was making about Receive, which is the place that this plays out around about the same time. I thought this was just a terrific film because it was so many different genres all working together. Like it's something that sounds like it shouldn't work, but it does. And it was an interesting bit of correspondence about. You know, we were talking about the severed leg, the legend of the severed leg. And there's a bit in the middle of it in which there's this whole thing that. And I said that apparently, you know, the press used this because there was. There was press censorship at the time. And somebody wrote to me and said, yeah, it's actually more complex than that. It's that the police use. The newspapers used the severed leg as a way of talking about police brutality without looking like that's what they were doing. So if the more you know about that political backstory, the more entrenched it becomes.

35:43

David Kosial, Bunch of Numbers on our YouTube channel. Something I admired about this film when I saw it was that it seemed to be interested in keeping us guessing how it's all going to resolve. But then it manages to resolve everything in a way that does not grant conventional closure, that does not answer every question its narrative asks, and does this all deliberately and in such a manner as to reveal its actual thematic through lines. It's really one of my favorites of the year.

36:47

Yeah, very good.

37:11

Secret Agent. And number Five. Number four here. Eight over there. Zootropolis. Two.

37:12

And when they got up to receive the, the, the bafta, they were referring to it as Zootopia. And then they had to correct themselves and say, sorry, Zootropolis, because, you know.

37:16

Yes, because of language. Number three here, four in America is crime 101.

37:26

So I'm, I'm a big fan of. And I'm glad to see that it is, you know, it's, it's in the top three. I thought it was great heist movie. I really enjoyed it, great performances and it had. It was about something. So it was using the mechanics of a heist movie to actually be about something else, which is the way in which we judge our success by material goals which don't make any sense at all.

37:32

Goat is at number two. It's the American number one.

37:52

Yeah, Goat was all right. I didn't, I didn't connect with it. It's an animation and I, you know, I'm an animation fan. It was certainly not a particularly interesting animation, but, you know.

37:56

And number two in America, number one, Our number one is Wuthering Heights. Barney Robson, principal clarinet at the English National Opera.

38:06

Yes.

38:14

An MSc in Performance Science says dear Bath and Water long term listed from the days when podcasts were just a twinkle in the eye and production teams weren't quite as dazzling as they are now. I enjoyed Mark's review of Wuthering Heights, although I'm unlikely to go, being roughly 43 years outside the target audience and still recovering from the post bathing slurp in Emerald's previous offering. That said, your discussion of other adaptations reminded me of the great Bernard Herman and his only opera, an adaptation of the Bronte novel. It was a passion project for Herman, who worked diligently on the piece in between film scores for eight years, recording it in London at his own expense, but never hearing it performed publicly in his lifetime. It wasn't until April 2011, for the centenary of his birth that Herman's Wuthering Heights was finally staged in full. And it is fantastic. I tracked down a secondhand box set of Herman's recording on vinyl, as only fragments seem to have trickled onto streaming, and even tried to persuade the powers that be to put work to put it on. After all, it's an opera in English, but to no avail. Yet, knowing you both to be fans of the genre, Mark loving the mesmerizing arpeggios in Philip Glasses. I can.

38:15

Yep.

39:33

And Simon, a fully fledged opera enabler.

39:33

Yes, you are an opera enabler.

39:36

Perhaps the POD could launch a revival campaign. Love the show, Stephen. Always Will Barney Robson from the Eno. That's interesting. I didn't know Bernard Herman had done.

39:38

I confess that I didn't either. No, I, I confess that I didn't know that either. And in fact, because you know, Bernard Herman does feature in, in, in surround sound quite a lot on the subject of Wuthering Heights, the film.

39:47

Yes.

39:58

So I'm just looking at the current. So the budget was 80 million. So the current international box office is 157 million. The usual formula is that to wash its face, a film needs to do two and a half times its budget. So it's getting towards 160. So it's, you know, it's going to be, it's not a runaway hit. It's not a runaway hit. It, it's done. Okay, but it's not a smash hit. It's not, it's not a flop. It's going to succeed. It's going to take, it's like I said, it's going to do fine, but it's not a runaway hit.

39:58

There's more Wuthering Heights conversation in take two. If you have something to contribute. Correspondence@Kevin America.com Back in a moment. Mark talking about the testament of Van Lee, an epic Elvis Presley in concert, and our conversation with Pete Docter on the way.

40:29

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40:47

Okay, so let's introduce our guest for this week. He is the Chief Creative officer at Pixar Animation Studios. Pete Doctor, Oscar winning director of Monsters Inc. Up and Inside out, helped develop the story and characters for Toy Story. I mean, already this, you know, you know.

41:22

Wow.

41:40

Recently directed Disney and Pixar's Oscar winning feature film Soul, which is the last time we spoke to him. Yeah. Next releases from Pixar Hoppers on March 6th and Toy Story 5 on the 19th of June. So we'll play you a bit of the trailer for Hoppers and then we talk to Pete Doctor. The traditional methods to understand animals just weren't working. But we've done it, Mabel.

41:42

We created a revolutionary technology that gives us unprecedented.

42:06

Absolutely.

42:11

To the animal world.

42:11

We call it Hoppers.

42:13

Huh? We put this into this.

42:15

Yes, yes.

42:17

This into this. Mabel, be careful.

42:18

Robotic robotic this here will rock your homies.

42:21

Whoa.

42:26

And they were in the same den.

42:27

No, I understand you.

42:29

What you doing?

42:31

Ladies?

42:32

This is incredible.

42:33

Pete, Doctor, Chief creative Officer at Pixar. It's very nice to speak to you. Actually. You've been on the show before, spoke Christmas 2020 for soul. And it's nice to have you back. Before we go any further, when you look at Mark there, does Carl Frederickson in Up spring to mind?

42:36

Yes, I love it.

42:57

I just like to say that this has officially destroyed my life because I spent my whole life trying to look like James Dean. Then I went through a period of looking like Richard Nixon and now all I get is, oh, Carl from up. So thanks, Pete.

42:59

Well, he was modeled after Spencer Tracy, so you could take that.

43:11

That's.

43:15

That's a good repulse. Actually, I don't look like Carl. I look like Spencer Tracy.

43:15

Pete, we're speaking on a. An overcast, rainy London day. And. And you're in London as well. Do you have. On days like this, do you ever look out of the window and see the rain and think, my, that's really realistic? They've rendered that very well.

43:20

You know, as I was animating on Toy Story, which came out 30 years ago, I was working so many hours, I went home one day, I walked home and I came up to a tree and I touched it with my hand to understand this story. Computers don't have. Everything can just go right through each other. And so that I could actually touch the tree was mind blowing to me because I'd been working so long that I wasn't used to that. So yes, once in a while, reality does melt.

43:37

Yeah.

44:05

So 30 years of Toy Story, 40 years of Pixar. Before we get into the nitty gritty of everything, what are you most proud of for the time that you've been there?

44:05

Well, I mean, in a way that we're just still around period is kind of a miracle. It doesn't happen very often that you have a success. Much less two, much less three, much less. Now we're on, you know, number 30. We've done 30 films. Hoppers is coming out this, this march. And it's also just an amazing group of collaborators, people that work together. You know, no one person is the whole package. And that's why you have this group that really needs to synergistically work together. And it's just been amazing. I mean, that's a Little bit of a non answer. Let's see, specifically, what am I most proud of?

44:13

Up.

44:51

Let's just say up.

44:51

The Spencer Tracy like, character.

44:53

You're welcome. Thank you.

44:56

That's there. So can I ask you a question about technology in layman's terms? Technology has always been really, really important for what Pixar has done. I know about Renderman, I've read about menvi. Can you explain what differences those technologies are making and the exciting ones for the future?

44:57

I think in very basic terms, people assume animation is drawn, you know, and it was for. For, you know, hundreds, well, dozens of years. What we do is more like building them as little puppets, but in the computer. So it's three dimensional geometry that then is rendered. Renderman is the software that makes a surface look reflective or matte or shiny or whatever kind of thing, whatever color you assign and so on. Textures, the movement is all done in this software called Marionette, which again, it's a little bit like stop motion, where it's easier for people to understand if there's a puppet and I know it's gonna be here on frame 37 and 38, it's gonna be here 39. Every frame is just a little different, which is, of course, what creates the illusion of movement. And we just have amazing technology people, amazing animators, artists that all work together, all for the same goal of making a good story.

45:15

When Pixar first, I mean, I remember very clearly sitting in an early screening of Toy Story, having never ever seen anything digital animation that I was seeing and feeling almost kind of like there was something hallucinatory about it, because you couldn't quite figure out whether it was physical or you couldn't quite figure it out. But back then, the message was, yes, the technology is extraordinary, but the story comes first and the characters come first. And it does appear that throughout the history of Pixar, that has remained the case. Are you still as committed to that story? First characters, first technology, serving those two things?

46:12

Absolutely. In fact, typically, a film that you see from Pixar will take about five years to make. And I'd say the first three, we don't even think about the technology, it's all about the story. And the story just continues to be honed and refined up until the very last frame is finished. It really, I think from that first frame, first film on, we recognized, hey, the visuals are spectacular and interesting and engaging for about 30 seconds and then you get bored and you want to have some story, you want to have something that you're compelled to Believe in, to root for, to, to. To yearn for. So it's. It's. Yeah. We think of ourselves primarily as a storytelling company.

46:53

I hesitate to. To mention AI but this seems to be the point to mention it, that the thing about the Toy Story genius, which Mark has described, because the story and the characterization and the voices, everything is so sparkly and it's so funny and the music is great. But what it's about is, of course, what is it like to be a human? What is it that makes us human? That's what it's about. Can AI do that?

47:32

Well, look, my experience with AI is that it's as though you took the average thing, put it in a rock tumbler, sanded all the edges off, and took the middle one out. It's kind of still the thing, but it's so bland that it doesn't really have any distinctive features. Now, maybe that'll change. AI is progressing very, very fast, but so far, it's been an amazing tool for humans to use. But I don't think it's out in front, you know, I think it's something that we're using to help craft the storytelling, even the visuals. We used AI for a good nine, 10 years to help complete the frame renders. You know, you have 24 frames a second. Each frame takes. It can take like 24, 30 hours to compute a single frame. Only with AI, we're able to stop it after three and let it fill in the rest. So it's been very, very helpful for us, and I kind of think it will be. It's an amazing tool, and it's. To me, the technology tools are always kind of like a new toy I get to play with. Like, how? Well, what can we. What can we do with this?

48:01

So when you came on to talk about Soul, because I just listened again to the interview, the things that made me gasp in Seoul, I mentioned to you, tears, fingers and pizza were the things that made me gossip in that particular movie. When we go to see Hoppers and Toy Story 5 and everything else, are there things that you can do now that you couldn't do before? It may be that you couldn't even do for Soul.

49:03

You know, it's funny, I feel like for the last 10 years or so, the technology has been such that we can kind of do whatever we want. It's really the artists who are going to put it across in some way that really reach and touch you in a specific way. So it's less about, Ooh. Now new technology allows us to xyz and more to do with the eye and the soul of a person that puts it across in some way that touches you.

49:25

The year that Inside out came out, that was my favorite film of the year in any genre. That was my favorite film of the year. I thought it was an actor outstanding. Just a wonderful piece of it. Not my favorite animation, my favorite film. I remember seeing Monsters, Inc. And thinking that put that thing back where it came from was the first time I'd ever seen an end credits gag sequence that was actually funny. And I wonder whether in. In your terms, do you think of the movies as movies first and as animation second?

49:51

Yeah, for sure. And we start to. Weirdly, we think of the characters as real. I think of. Oh, well, Sully wouldn't say that. You know, you start to know them as people. They. They. They live in your head. In. In a very real way, which I don't know what that says about us. I guess active imaginations. It's funny. They put that thing back where it came from. We were just thinking about that. We had done. I think we had written the line in the movie where Sully and Mike look over and see other monsters staring at them. And he says, we're rehearsing for a play. Yeah. And then Billy Improv. Billy Crystal, who is, of course, amazing to work with improv. That. The little song that when. Then we thought, okay, we can do that whole thing at the end. Anyway, my point is just that you work with these amazing people and they add things. And so the reality that's in my head is suddenly blown open by working with a great actor, a great set designer, a musician. It's. It's such a joy.

50:20

And when you're casting those people, you are casting as actors rather than voice artists on you. Because we've all seen animation in which there is this celebrity voice casting. And it's not necessarily the best voice, but it's because the person. But it does seem that you are casting the actors.

51:18

Yeah. Our process that we generally still follow is we have a casting department that takes audio away from the picture. And so by the first time I hear it, I don't know who it is. I'm just listening. And some actors just have an amazing voice that springs to life in your head. Other actors use their face more or their body, you know. And so obviously we try to use the actors who just have a very expressive instrument there in the voice. And Billy Crystal, a great example of that. But, you know, we've had the pleasure of working with so many Great actors over the years, and they have brought so much. The characters end up changing a ton. So we typically. We've written them, we've designed them, and then we cast them. So a lot of times people will say, oh, you know, Ed Asner looks so much like Carl Fredrickson. Well, he existed before cast the film. But then working with the actor, the character changes again. They start to expand. You get to use the language that this actor will bring or pauses and expressions, because we do videotape them, we film them so that the animators have a chance to look at what expressions and gestures the actors and maybe use borrow a few as they're creating the performance.

51:34

So when you announced Toy Story 5, Pete. I think I was both looking forward to it because I watched the trailer and scared, because the movies that you've created have been so extraordinary. And we've been fortunate to speak to Tom Hanks on the show a number of times, and he's talked about getting Woody's voice right and how little his voice has changed over the decades because he doesn't smoke and he hardly ever drinks and all that voice preservation, all that kind of stuff. What are you allowed to tell us about Toy Story 5 that will reassure us?

52:48

Well, Toy Story 5, I think we've finally caught up to the present, which is. It's Toys meet tech. So this is obviously something we've been dealing with as parents, that kids are not spending their days in these imaginary worlds that they've created. They're on devices. And the characters in the film have to face that reality as well. So it's a challenge. It's a challenge for them. What's great is, of course, we have the whole cast back, Tom and Tim and a few new characters. We have this amazing. Conan o' Brien plays a potty training toy. It's a digital, you know, little device that helps kids learn how to go to the loo. And he is hilarious. So we just have a great cast. I think that's, to me, the salient characteristic of the Toy Story movies are the characters are really fun and rich and they have this wonderful relationship with each other. And that. That's certainly true of this film.

53:22

And Randy Human.

54:22

Yeah, Randy's back. He's writing a fantastic score. He's done about 20 minutes, I think, so far. And it's. It's just so comforting. As soon as you hear it, you're like, ah, we're back. We're back.

54:23

I was going to say that what Simon hasn't told you is that we've been doing our film review together for many decades. And there was, when we were doing Toy Story 3, there was a lengthy section which was two old men sitting in a room reduced to tears and basically unable to speak because they were going, isn't the end of Toy Story 3 the story of all our lives? And then reading an excerpt from Winnie the Pooh. And then my children moved out and we all went, it's Andy's bedroom. How does it feel to have to have become part of the DNA of cultural conversation like that?

54:33

It's crazy. And such an honor and a reflection of ourselves. I mean, all the. The things you just mentioned are. We've all gone through as people who've made these films. Those toys have kind of lived our lives. And you see that on the screen. I feel like it's so fun to be able to take the complexities of life and study it and put it into something like cars or insects or monsters and see it through just a little bit of a different lens. And it really reflects back in a way that is louder, I think, in a sense than real life. It amplifies certain things. And I guess that's the goal anyway of art in general is to kind of just look around and say, okay, all this stuff that we just are not even really clocking, you know, a day goes by and you wake up and you, oh, I'm late, and so on. When you look at a good movie, you're suddenly aware, oh, I'm living life, you know, in a way that you don't really experience on a day to day.

55:10

When we spoke five or six years ago for Seoul, as I recall, diversity and inclusion were not particularly a controversial. They weren't controversial subjects. And Pixar has been very clear in the way it draws its characters and the way that you have told your stories. Does that feel as though it's changed now, the political landscape that you're operating in?

56:09

I mean, it's definitely been a journey. When we started, we were a much more homogenous company and those of us who were directing were all kind of from similar backgrounds of, you know, suburbia of America. And that has really blown open. I think the, the audience, the people making the movies, we're really trying to be constantly innovating and not telling the same kind of story again and again. So what we're looking to do is find specificity, you know, find just the right character, as you mentioned, for soul. You know, as soon as we hit on this idea that we wanted a jazz musician, we thought well, he should be African American. That's one of the many amazing contributions that African Americans have brought to the world. And so that then put a big onus on me and the rest of the team to figure that out and be very specific and accurate. And of course, we needed a lot of help for that. So, you know, we continue to do that. It's not about diversity for diversity's sake. It's about telling story with authenticity and specificity that makes it come to life for people.

56:30

And finally, if I may, Pete, you're from Minnesota. What should we be making of the news that's coming out of your hometown?

57:41

So horrifying. It's horrifying. You know, I have friends and relatives living there still, and it's scary times for everybody to the point where we even worry about visiting, you know. Yeah. I hope things can get settled down.

57:47

Pete, it was a delight to speak to you. We haven't even mentioned Hoppers. But anyway, I Hope the next 40 years are as rich and exciting as the. As the last 40.

58:02

I do too. Thank you very much and thanks for talking to me.

58:12

The extraordinary Pete Docter, who is. He's very corporate, isn't he? And obviously he has to be because he's Friendica Corporation. But to have that on your seat, all those movies on your cv, is genuinely incredible. I think there was. I mean, we're obviously limited in time. The diversity and inclusion question, obviously he didn't answer because maybe that's making that. Maybe that would make life difficult. I mean, he. He sort of stated where they have been and where they are and how they have shifted over the years. But obviously the whole point of the question was diversity and inclusion is actually now been made a very controversial subject. And if you pursue with that. Pursue with that policy, then maybe you'll come under some kind of attack.

58:15

Yeah, I mean, it's. It is. It is astonishing to think what's happened to America in the years since, you know, since. Since this all began. Can I say that the one thing which surprised me slightly is he said, go to the loo. I've written.

59:00

I've just written that down. Exactly that.

59:14

Go to the. I didn't think Americans said go to.

59:15

I think. I think he knew who he was talking to and so he used the English. English version.

59:17

Do you know where Lou comes from?

59:23

Waterloo.

59:26

No.

59:27

Presumably.

59:27

Nope. No, it's. It's Gardiloo. It's the French for when you used to, you know, you had your bed, your bed pan, your bed pot, whatever it was called. You know, the thing that you weeded in the night and you'd throw it out the window and as you threw out the window you shut gardilu, which is look out, you know, below. And that's where Lou comes from.

59:28

Are you sure about that?

59:44

I think I am sure about it. You're not going to tell me that that's not.

59:46

No, no, no. I absolutely, I absolutely don't know. But character does sound like a hoot actually.

59:49

It does, it does, but it was just funny to hear an American say.

59:54

Goes. Yeah. Worth mentioning. Mundo Pixar is on in London right now. You step into life size sets from your favorite Disney Pixar films. You become a toy in Andy's room with Woody and Buzz, speed into Radiator springs with Lightning McQueen and venture through the monsters. This does the monsters. It does sound like a press release. Anyway, alongside Mike And Sully features 13 unique Pixar sets in a 3,500 square meter area of immersive space or 9/10 of an acre in old money. Mundopixar.com for your tickets. That does sound like the kind of thing I'd have been being hounded for back in the day.

59:57

But yeah, not anymore. And we're going to review Hoppers next week because it opens next Friday.

1:00:35

Okay. And the exhibit runs until the end of June. Correspondence@Kevin.com thanks to Pete Doctor for talking to us. So here's, here's a movie that we have already discussed a little bit because we ran the interview last week. The Testament of Anne Lee.

1:00:39

Yes, the new film from Mona Fastfold, director of the. That Jim Shepard adaptation the World to Come for which I think. Did you interview Vanessa Kirby and Katherine Waterston or was it just Vanessa Kirby? It was anyway, I think it was just. It was just Vanessa Kirby. So Mona Fassfold also the partner of Brady Courbet with whom she co wrote this film and the pair have previously collaborated on Child of a Living of a Leader, Vox Lux and of course the Brutalist. The star of this new film, Testament of Ann Lee is Amanda. Now correct my spelling, my pronunciation, she

1:00:55

pronounces it Amanda Wright said Fred. So Sey Fred Seifred.

1:01:29

Seyfried. Seyfried.

1:01:35

It just every inch of me thinks that's wrong. Except that Amanda wants you to say Amanda Seyfried. So that's what we will say.

1:01:37

Okay, fine. So Amanda Seyfried who was on last week's show with Mona Fastfold, if you haven't heard that interview interview, do go back and listen to it because it was a very, very good interview. So the film tells the. The. I mean, the. I have to say, unknown to me, story of Anne Lee, Mancunian woman who became the leading light of the Shaker movement in the 18th century. So the film basically follows her early revulsion about sex, which she thinks is the source of all sin. The birth and loss of several children, which provides a genuinely traumatic backstory to her own story. Her initia into the Quakers, and then the development of the Shaking Quakers, so called because they seem to sort of convulse during the spiritual ecstasy of their services. And she was talking, manifesto, was talking about almost shaking the spirits out from the body. The movement to America on a crossing which nearly kills them. The attempt to set up a new utopian society. The hostility from those around them who see them as, you know, witches and devil worshipers. Not least because the Shakers seem to believe that Anne is effectively the second coming of Christ. So the joke that everyone made is, you know, you won't like it when she's Ann Lee, which. Which they didn't. Here is a clip from the trailer

1:01:45

for those new here who are unaccustomed

1:03:06

to a woman preaching, come nearer to me.

1:03:09

Christ's spirit first appeared as a man,

1:03:26

but has reappeared to fulfill the promise of the second coming as a woman, our mother, Ann. I have seen a chosen people waiting for us in America.

1:03:30

We who decided to create Big Tree with deep and solid roots.

1:03:47

So I knew nothing of this story before the film, and I think. Did you know about it before seeing the film?

1:03:57

I did. I did know some of it just because I did a university study of religious radicalism which came out the English Civil war, which is 100 years previous, but is clearly spilling into this story.

1:04:02

Yeah, okay. So all I knew was, as everybody does, Shaker furniture, you know, very, very, very, very nice kitchenware. So the story is remarkable. What is more remarkable is the decision to tell the story as a musical. And you and I will have to have a discussion about this.

1:04:16

This.

1:04:33

I think that doing it as a musical makes sense because the convulsions of the Shaker Service are like a form of kind of trancy dancing. I mean, there is. There is a comparison, in fact, between this movie and Sirat, which we'll talk about in a little bit, which is to do with, you know, raves and, you know, sort of trancy rave dancing. You were surprised when the film burst into song and dance. I wasn't, because I knew that it was a musical because you had Contacted me after you saw the film because you saw it first and said, did you know it was a musical? And I said, no, no, I didn't. But obviously by the time I went into the film, therefore I did. But I thought it made perfect sense because I thought the whole thing is the way in which the gestures, the, the, the dance gestures are put together is based on that kind of physical representation of spiritual rapture which happens during the Shaker service. I mean, they take their name from the fact that there is this kind of, this shaking, this sort of, like I said, this sort of trancy spasm happening that they, that they then turned into dance. I think the choreography is amazing and for me it worked. Now tell me why the, the musical element didn't work for you.

1:04:33

Trancy Spasm, by the way, great name for a band.

1:05:50

Yes.

1:05:52

If I was going to set up some kind of, of ecstatic worship outfit, I'm assume there are some Trancy spasm would be it. Or maybe Transispasm would be the lead singer. Maybe. I, I think the story is, is, is a fascinating one. And as I said, I had a bit of an introduction to this based on studying stuff that came out of the English Civil War, which was, as Christopher Hill wrote in his book in it, a world turned upside down. That's what had happened. So. And we're still, we're in like the tail end of that.

1:05:54

Yeah.

1:06:27

So I do think all these religious radical groups are endlessly fascinating. And I found that the dancing and singing just got in the way of it. And I've, and I found it increasingly irritating. And I also, because Amanda Seifried has got such a great voice and we've heard her sing before, it all sounded too pure to me. It sounded too West End to Broadway and, and I thought no would have been very kind of crazy and strange. And I don't think it ever answered that I was messaging my brother because he studied the Shakers University and he said that they, he thinks that the dancing was an alternative to sex. Doesn't sound like a great option really. But anyway, that's, that's, that's.

1:06:28

No, I, I, Yes, I, I think there is something of that. And when I was talking about ecstatic. Yes, there is. There is an element which is that if you're going, if you have to have some kind of physical ecstasy, then actually that, that, that does make sense. I should say that, you know, on the subject of the thing. So the soundtrack is, is Daniel Bloomberg was using original Shaker hymns as the kind of basis. He also wrote three original songs and he said that it's one of the most experimental extreme projects I've ever done. And I. I didn't have the issue that you had about it sounding West Endy. And partly I think that's because. So the choreography is by Celia Rossin hall, who also worked on Vox Lux, and I was completely swept up in the physical movement of it. And I think the point that your brother made is actually a very good point, which I think is captured by that movement. But it's interesting because from your point of view, you found it just alienated you from the story. And from my point of view, I found that it brought me in and I suspect that that is going to be mirrored by audiences. And we'll, you know, we'll tell, obviously, next week when we get emails about it, but I suspect that people are either going to go with it or not.

1:07:16

Yeah, I think so. I think also. And let's forget, just for the moment, the ridiculous one and a half kilometers reference, which, you know, it's the wrong. It's the wrong bird, it's the wrong swimming stroke, it's the wrong unit of measurement.

1:08:29

I'm amazed I didn't notice that when it happened. I'm just. I'm amazed because that's such a honk.

1:08:46

It is. It's sort of. What. Hang on, Stop the film. That. That Amanda Seyfried's character, Ann Lee, I think she. I think her phrase was, you know, there is madness here. Yes. That she had been driven, for want of a better word, being driven mad by the. The four children she had lost.

1:08:51

Children. Yes.

1:09:11

Which. Which led presumably to, you know, you can't have sex, whatever, and no children. Thank you very much. Much.

1:09:13

Yeah. Because bear in mind, they thought they were in end times. They thought the end.

1:09:20

All of these groups were convinced that it was the end of the world.

1:09:26

Yeah.

1:09:28

And. But if. I mean, I mentioned this in the interview, if you go around saying you are the second coming of Christ, you make it very easy for the authorities to say, you can cut that out.

1:09:28

Yeah. You know, we're not having any of that.

1:09:38

Thank you very much.

1:09:39

Can we say on the subject of Amanda Seyfried's performance, I thought her. I thought it was one of the best performances she's done. I like her anyway, but I thought it was one of the best performances. Yes. She said in the interview that she struggled with the accent. I thought the accent was pretty good. We await the verdict of Mancunians who can write in and tell us just how convincing it was. I'm sure that if your ear is completely attuned, there will be things that are wrong. But I actually thought she did a pretty good job and she convinced me, as, you know, as an actor, as a dancer, as a bereaved mother, and most importantly, as the charismatic leader of a group who thinks they have got a hotline to God, who think that she is the second coming, who think that the end of the world is nigh, and who are completely entranced by, I mean, I, it's hard to get those charismatic characters right. And I thought she did. I thought her performance was terrific.

1:09:41

And I, I, I agree with that. And who knew that there was Puritan porn? You'll have to see the film for

1:10:34

details, but I'd be really interested to know what people think, because as I said, for me, the dancing and the music I found completely engulfing. I wish I still had the Scala show because we would have played the whole soundtrack for you. You found it alienating. And, and it is. This is a perfect example of. All film criticism or criticism is subjective. I'll be really interested to know, know what listeners think, whether they go with it or whether they find, as you did, that it was alienating.

1:10:45

And, you know, and it may well be that if I hadn't learned about them a bit, then I would have, you know, I wanted more of that. I wanted more of the, of, of how this movement emerged and where it came from and an explanation of all that because it just seemed like crazy stuff. Yeah. But anyway, so the Testament Van lee is out. Correspondencerman.com adds in a moment. But first, Mark, I can see that there's a smile playing at the corner of your mouth because it's our laughter lift time. I see you jigging there to the music.

1:11:12

I am.

1:11:53

Hey, Mark. A real emotional roller coaster. Roller coaster.

1:11:54

It's not your teeth that you have in today.

1:12:00

It's an emotional roller coaster. On the Laugh to Live this week, do you remember Uncle Cecil who became chronically addicted to the Hokey Cokey? Well, good news. He's really turned himself around. But I also have some very sad news. You know my pet ducks, Waddle Dairo and Duck Norris?

1:12:02

No.

1:12:20

Well, Duck Norris came down with something very nasty last week and collapsed, so we rushed him to the vets. Going to have to give me some space in this one. I'm afraid your duck is dead, said the vet. Are you sure? Says I. Hold on a moment, sir, the vet says, and brings out a Labrador retriever. Which sniffs poor little Duck Norris and shakes his head. Are you really sure the duck is dead? What's with the Labrador?

1:12:20

Anyway?

1:12:45

That's what I'm saying. Hold on, sir, says the vet. And in comes a moggy, would you believe, who also sniffs the duck and shakes its head. And then the vet hands me the bill. 600 quid, I say to tell me that my duck is dead. Well, if you'd taken my word for it, Simon Mayo, the bill would have been 30 quid. But lab reports and cat scans cost extra.

1:12:45

Wow.

1:13:07

Yep. It was a long, long run up.

1:13:08

It was a long walk up the garden path to that front door.

1:13:11

Long run up for a very small hurdle. Anyway, I needed cheering up after that, as you can imagine. So I was watched.

1:13:13

I think we all do.

1:13:19

So I watched one of my. There's no way of saying this without it sounding pervy. Okay, okay, go on.

1:13:20

I'm just gonna go for it.

1:13:26

So I watch one of my special videos of German women doing. They really turn my frown upside down. Anyway, the special videos of German women doing handstands. Come on. Kind of world is this. Anyway, coming up in the last bit of the program, Mark is going to be getting very excited because. And we haven't talked about that. Well, we talked about the film, but we haven't discussed what's going to be album of the week. What's the movie of the week is going to be. But let me. Well, it. Maybe it'll be movie of the week and album of the week as well, because it's Epic Elvis Presley in Concert after this. Okay, it's time for what I think is going to be movie of the week. Epic Elvis Presley in concert.

1:13:28

Big, big E, big P, small I, big C. So this is the new film from Baz Luhrmann. This evolved during the research for Baz's 2022 biopic, Elvis Biopic. And during that, he went looking for archive of unseen footage of Elvis from the 70s. Because. Because there's always been this story that. Because there's the two movies, there's Elvis that's the Way it Is, and Elvis on tour from 70 and 72, respectively. And, you know, there's outtake footage probably. Anyway, it turns out in the Warner Brothers archive, which is in a salt mine in Kansas. And of course, I knew this because when we were doing the Exorcist reconstruction stuff, that's where all the stuff is held. It's in a salt mine in Kansas because it keeps the moisture out of the air. There was apparently something like 70 boxes of film, 35 millimeter, 8 millimeter. And there was a. There was a lot of it to go through. So much of it was without sound. So then there was the whole thing about finding sound, sorting sound, syncing sound. They also found a 45 hour long interview with Elvis, audio interview with Elvis, which Baz Luhrmann then decided could be used as a narration of sorts. Because as Luhrmann said, everybody's heard everyone else tell Elvis's story. But this was effectively Elvis telling his own story. So with the help of Peter Jackson's team, who've done all that stuff with the Beatles restorations, he assembled basically a kind of montage tone poem that jumps between rehearsal and live footage and live performance, often intercutting between different takes of the same song. With a kind of recap of Elvis's life, but focusing largely on that period in the early 70s and to some extent narrated by Elvis himself. So here is a clip from the trailer of Epic Elvis Presley in concert.

1:14:21

There's been a lot written and a

1:16:15

lot said,

1:16:16

but never from my side of the story. If you feel it,

1:16:19

you can't help

1:16:26

but move to it.

1:16:27

It's a new crowd out here. They haven't seen us before. It's gotta be like the first time we go on.

1:16:34

That's one of the secrets.

1:16:48

Sorry, I'm just dancing in my chair to that because I love that song. So here's the thing. One of the things that when people think about, about Elvis in the 70s and the Vegas years, they traditionally think of, you know, what's referred to as the Elvis fat period. This is not that. This is Elvis at the peak of his performing abilities. I mean, Obviously after the 68 comeback special he had decided, which wasn't called the Comeback Special at the time, he had decided that he had this, this kind of, this desire to perform. And this is when he's absolutely at the top of his game. He's incredibly good shape. He's got the jumpsuits that look amazing. He's got. He's having an awful lot of fun. I mean, one of the funny things is the film is a 12A. And I looked at the. The thing about, you know, when they, when they describe what they've certificated it for. One of the things is drugs. He says. In a comic improvisation of the lyrics of a song, Elvis refers to morphine and marijuana, which he does. Rude humor. There's a bit when Elvis picks up a bra that's been thrown onto the stage during a concert performance and puts it on his head and he wears his hair.

1:16:53

It's not rude and it's not rude humor. It's not really funny.

1:17:53

But it's 12A. So they're just saying, you know, they're kind of explaining what these, what these things are. He is having a lot of fun. More importantly, he is a showman at the head of his, you know, absolutely the peak of his powers. There's a bit when he does this kind of tap dancing gag And Sammy Davis Jr. Is in the audience. You can tell everyone is looking at Elvis going, this guy knows how to put on a show. The stuff that I loved about it, quite apart from the fact that I love Elvis and I love, you know, I love these performances. First, the, the fact that I think what we essentially see is Elvis is a musical director because he is conducting the musicians, he's the backing singers, even the audience. He's doing the kind of, you know, the, the karate moves that we all know about. But he is absolutely musically directing the band both in the rehearsals and more importantly on stage. And the way that the musicians watch him, I mean they are just, they are focused on him in the same way that the orchestra would be focused on a conductor like Robert Ziegler. Every kind of, you know, every gesture means something. It's like a. It's like watching a Swiss watch or a well oiled machine functioning in complete. It's absolutely magnificent. He is conducting the performances. Second thing is the sense of epicness, of epic. So the film opens in IMAX before opening in other cinemas. You remember that when Moon Age Daydream, the David Bowie documentary came out, one of the places that it was particularly successful was in IMAX because people loved the thing of seeing those Bowie performances on that huge screen. The film is designed to be overwhelming and it is because the presentation of those songs is just so electrifying. Whether you like Elvis or not, I think you'd watch this and it'd be like seeing Judy Garland on stage. It doesn't matter whether you like her or whether you like the songs. It's just that is an electrifying performance. And I think that, that, that kind of montage tone poem thing is it's very Baz Luhrmann. I mean, Baz Luhrmann gets criticized for, you know, cutting between things and, you know, making everything overly busy. But actually what the film is doing when it's cutting between within a song, cutting between performances of the song, cutting from the rehearsal room to the live stage, you know, to different takes of it, what it's doing is. It's showing you across a range of different areas the way in which Elvis is in control of this material. The way in which what Elvis is doing is. Is interpreting these songs and conducting. Everyone always talks about Frank Sinatra's phrasing. They say Frank Sinatra was the great interpreter of songs. He could tell. He could tell stories with songs. Elvis on stage in this period is a great interpreter of songs and he's leading the orchestra. And the stuff. I mean, just the. I hate the word banter, but the stuff between him and the backing singers is just amazing. The way that all the musicians are watching him and he is right there in the middle of it. It's. I just thought it was fantastic. What did you think, Simon?

1:17:56

I thought it was amazing. All of those things are true. The, My. My favorite bit of the whole thing is the fact that, first of all, it's happy Elvis.

1:20:54

Yeah.

1:21:03

Having an absolute blast. And I love that We. We see him being introduced to the band right at the very beginning and they're all obviously thinking, wow, it's Elvis Presley. But these, these are top session musicians.

1:21:04

Oh, yeah, yeah.

1:21:16

And. And it's wonderful to watch them, you know, so the drummer is not looking at the drums. He's just watching Elvis because that's what you have to do. And you get. You got the feeling that he could do anything. He. He might, I don't know, change something or introduce another bit of the song. And they didn't. If you weren't watching what Elvis was.

1:21:16

Yes.

1:21:36

Conducting and telling you to do, you would have been left behind.

1:21:36

Yes.

1:21:39

And I might have mentioned this to you sometimes time before. The only time I've ever seen that in a much smaller context was Ronnie Scott's when Van Morrison launched the Avalon Sunset album and he had on stage with him an amazing band, Georgie Fame on keyboards, for example.

1:21:41

Wow.

1:21:57

And not one of them took their eyes off Van Morrison for the entire duration of the concert because they had no idea what he was going to do next. But it's a. You know, so I.

1:21:58

But it's a joy to watch, isn't it? It is a joy to watch somebody conducting musicians like that.

1:22:09

Yeah. So I was really completely brilliant. And in the same way that the Elvis biopic with Austin Butler and. And Tom Hanks made me think, okay, that's what it. That's what it was like. This has. This should be a double bill. They should be on together because on the one hand you get the fiction which explains how Elvis became the phenomena that he became. And then you see the actual Elvis in concert, and I think I thought it was a stunning success.

1:22:13

Basically, we had a. We had a communication from Sanjeev, who, of course, is the great Elvis. I mean, Sanjeev's, you know, Elvis trivia puts mine in the shade. I know. And Sanj sent this message to both you and I. I did say to Sanj, is it okay if we quote some of what he said? Have you got Sanji's message there?

1:22:43

Okay, so this is. This is some of it. This is one of those texts which is actually an email.

1:23:01

Yes.

1:23:05

So, like, it goes on for three feet. So Sanjeev says to me, this was about Elvis's resurrection, a return to live performance to what he felt he was made for in a time before auto tune choreography, light shows and dancers. Just a bloke in his band, as Elvis says in the film, playing the hell out of it. The connection with his band is backing singers. And the audience, precise yet loose, exacting yet playful, gave a striking glimpse of why he became the behemoth of an entertainer that he was. Lots of people are great, but few are original. From both the clips of young Elvis and early 70s Elvis, it is clear that no one before him moved quite like that. The upscaling technology of the images and sound had the same effect that Peter Jackson's Get Back and They Shall Not Grow Old had. One of the. One of this simultaneously going back in time and feeling contemporary. I thought that was also brought to bear by Baz's direction. A modern edit on old material. As a fan, it wasn't a given that I'd love it. I. It. I just didn't want to. I didn't want it to be awful. I was with someone, not necessarily a fan, and she loved it. Either way, it's difficult to ignore the voice, charisma and athleticism on display. And then he ends up by saying. The tragic note for me is that within five years of these performances, he'd be dead. But more than that, this was also the last vestige Elvis had of hope. Yeah. He talks about wanting to perform in Britain, Britain, Europe and Japan and that he hoped to make more movies, at least better than the ones he'd done.

1:23:05

Yes.

1:24:39

And which it would, which is true. And he does very explicitly say he wants to come to the uk.

1:24:40

He does, he absolutely does. Yeah. And one of the movies that he wanted to make that he wasn't allowed to because of Colonel Tom Parker, who, as I always say, was neither a colonel nor indeed a Tom Parker, was a star, is Born.

1:24:45

So go see it. Because even if fab, as Mark says, Mark is the Elvis fan, you, I'm kind of, yeah, I'll go and see it. But I was blown away. I thought it's, it's a fantastic film. And as a companion piece to the Elvis movie that he did a few years back, it's absolutely perfect.

1:24:55

So, yeah, boom.

1:25:13

And as soon as he found all that, all that archive, he must have thought, okay, fine, we're on to, we're definitely onto something here. Anyway, you said it was very busy because there's another film to do.

1:25:15

Yeah. So Sirat, which is the new film directed and co written by French born Galician filmmaker Oliver Lasher, who made Mimosas and Fire Will Come, which we reviewed on this show a while back. So the title is an Arabic term which refers to the Islamic bridge of Sirat, that all souls must cross over hell on the day of Judgment. It is described as a bridge thinner than a hair and sharper than a sword. Okay. So the film won the jury prize at Cannes. It. It's Oscar nominated for best international feature. It's up against Sentimental Value and it was just an accident and Secret Agent. So once again, that is like the great category. International feature is always the most interesting category. Stars Sergi Lopez, who played Captain Vidal in Pan's Labyrinth and was so magnificent in that Kristen Scott Thomas film Leaving, which I. Which I loved. So here's Luis. He's a father who arrives with his young son Esteban and a dog, Pippa at a rave festival in a southern Moroccan desert. The music, incidentally for the film, is by David Letellier, who is known professionally as Kang Ding Ray. So he has a father, he has a photograph of his daughter who has gone missing and he thinks she might be at the festival. And we don't know much about her except that she was an adult.

1:25:24

Fault.

1:26:47

Maybe she just broke off contact with her family. I'm going to play you the clip. I'm going to just tell you what is said in the clip, just so you can understand actually does it starts in, in English. So he says, do you know this girl? And they say, look, speak in Spanish if you wish. He says, she's my daughter. We haven't heard from her in five months. We've been told that she might be at this rave. Then the young boy, his son says, have you seen her? Her name's Ma. They say, I don't recognize her. Sorry, no. Do you know her? No, I've never seen her.

1:26:47

Her.

1:27:13

And then one of the ravers says, listen, there's going to be another rave in the desert. And he says, another rave? Says, yes, another rave after this one, maybe she'll be there. Here's the. Here's the clip. You know, this girl,

1:27:14

Okay?

1:27:39

So this other festival, this other fiesta, this other rave is happening far deeper in the desert, much harder to get to. And they're kind of surprised when he starts to follow them in his minivan, which they say is not going to make it. Meanwhile, soldiers arrive and start trying to move people on. And there are news reports that a conflict has broken out and it looks like it's the beginning of World War Three. So the ravers, with Lewis and his son and his dog in tow, evade the soldiers and head off on these fairly perilous roads to nowhere. So for a while, the film plays like a kind of cross between Sorcerer, Wages of Fear and Bobette Schroeder's 1972 film La Vallee, the valley obscured by clouds for which Pink Floyd did the soundtrack. In La Vallee, the story is that there's a French consul who joins this expedition in Papua New guinea and ends up sort of searching for this paradisial hidden valley where, you know, along the way the shackles of civilization are abandoned and they're looking for this kind of utopia. In Wages of Fear, in Sorcerer, you've got this desperate group of men driving these trucks through incredibly inhospitable and often unearthly terrain where death lurks at every corner. In both films, the protagonists seem to be on a road to nowhere, into the kind of heart of darkness. And in the case of this, that is what is what is going on. Although the actual nature of the quest is far more kind of oblique and I think, honestly, rather more hollow. Now, the further that Louis goes on this road with his son and the dog, and the more trippy things become mind altering drugs, impromptu raves, I think the narrative starts to fall into self indulgence and then there is a problem. Now, bear in mind, people love this film. People have been very profoundly affected by this film, and I'm in the minority with this, but I have an issue with it, which is that halfway through something really terrible happens. And I don't think the film has any idea how to deal with what the terrible thing is. And instead what it does is it just meanders inconsequentially in the wake of not knowing how to deal with this thing.

1:28:08

Thing.

1:30:21

Now, you could argue that one of the points is that the characters don't know how to deal with this Terrible thing that's happened. I think it's that the film itself doesn't know. Then in its third act, the group wander into a minefield and things take a turn for the absurd. Now, I. I think that the intention of this. Of the sequence is. Is it meant to be a metaphor for, you know, the randomness of life and death? And this sirat of the title, the thing about, you know, the Bridge over Hell, that is as sharp as a sword and thinner than. And I think what the director is trying to say is something about the way in which, you know, you have to abandon, you know, certain things about life in order to be reborn, in order to really fully. I think that's what's going on. You know, the life. The life after death, not actual death, but, you know, the rebirthing thing. But I have to say, to me, the dramatic conceit and the way it was dramatized is. Was more absurd than absurdist. And they are different things. So it's not so much that it's a sort of divine comedy, it's that it's an unintentionally funny joke. Now, I may be very shallow, and I absolutely understand that people have been profoundly affected by the film, but honestly, by the time we got to that third final act, I had. I had disengaged from the characters. Because the inability of the film to deal with the midway tragedy in any proper way meant that I just had started to see it as a film. I just started to see it as a construct. As I said, I. I know that other people have made comparisons with cult classics like, you know, Zabriskie Point. I know that at Cannes, everyone went nuts about it. I thought it. It was in its later stages, an example of a filmmaker getting high on their own supply. I mean, a film about people getting lost in the desert, off their heads on, you know, hallucinogenic substances, searching for the meaning of life in a base bin. And I found that indulgence troublesome because I think the film did not know how to deal with. Deal with the thing that happens halfway through it. And I. This is a perfect example of how Wes Craven once said about. No, not Wes Craven. Toby Hooper once. Not Toby Hooper. John Carpenter once said to me about horror movies. He said, the thing with horror movies is if you. You have to get onto an edge of terror, and if you lose the audience, you lose them big. And there are things in movies that just. You lose.

1:30:22

Lose.

1:32:46

You just lose the. The audience. In my case, the halfway. The midway point tragedy lost me. And I found I found the final act, as I said, more absurd than absurdist. Others will not feel the same way, but I'm not buying it.

1:32:47

Correspondence@kerbennebeer.com Let us know what you think. That's the end of Take one. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh, Heather and Dom. The redactor was Simon Paul. And if you're not following the pod already, please do so. Wherever you get your podcasts, come and join us on Patreon for all good and juicy stuff. Quick hi to new ultras Mark Field, Daniel Tuck and Sam Lowry. You're all very welcome. Mark, what is your film of the week? Elvis Presley.

1:33:03

Yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan of Testament of you won't like me when I'm angry, but it is absolutely epic. Elvis Presley in concert.

1:33:29

Back next week, look out for a special episode celebrating women in film with our partners at Vanguard ahead of International Women's Day. That's going to drop on Monday. That'll be on YouTube. YouTube. I will bestow a year's Ultra membership as I appear to have acquired this gift to our correspondent of the Week. I'll say it's Barney Robson, who's our clarinetist from the Eno, who was telling us about Bernard Herman and Wuthering Heights, which is, I think one of the Wuthering Heights is that we have not discussed, nor has anyone else, nor has anyone. So thank you, Barney, and we'll be back next week with your actual Martin Clunes. How about that? See you then. Too.

1:33:38

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1:34:20