Che ruolo hanno oggi i leader nel digitale?

We are in a very important moment, historical moment, regarding the role that have the digital leaders, and when I say digital leaders, I mean all the chiefs that have a responsibility from the point of view of information, technology, innovation, data, security and so on. These figures, in some way, were seen as technical figures that had to be put behind the quinte, that had to ensure that everything worked from the point of view of systems and infrastructure, but in some way they didn't participate in the decisions of organizations from a strategic point. What changed was an important shift that was given by the digital transformation. The digital transformation is not an option, and it was so many years ago, but it is the real linfa vital for organizations and is what organizations must force do because if they do something else, they have already done and they are already done. This has made it to us in some way from basement, so from seminterrati, and that they would pass much more time in the building of the buttons, so together with decision makers. Welcome to the big interview live from Bocconi. In this episode, which is done in collaboration with CIOnet, we will talk about digital, artificial intelligence, cybersecurity, and all that is impacting the business in the business of the company, in the organization, in the system. We do it with a rich panel of guests from the public and private world and we want to explore the transformative effect that we are experiencing together in these years. For this reason I would like to give a welcome to our first guest, the country manager of CIO Net, Francesco Tondi. Thank you for being here with us at The Big Interview. Thank you very much Gianluca, thank you to Wired for the invitation. a support of digital infrastructures. It is unique for its ability to offer secure multi-cloud solutions, efficient and affordable, thanks to four data centers, innovative and sustainable, protected by anti-intrusions and cybersecurity. A guarantee of the maximum confidence for the security data and critical data of the country. A wide range of cloud solutions, with a service dedicated to consulting, management, training, training and assistance. Hundreds of companies in the whole Italy have already joined the Polo Strategic National. In September 2024, the goal of the PNRR is reached the goal of the PNRR. In the past, among the central businesses, the ASL and hospitals are migrated to the cloud of Polo Strategic National. Now, the next objective PNRR for the 2026 is the 280 PA with the service to the infrastructure. In the synergy between national and public administration, today is the future of the digital digital world. All right, Francesco, I'll start from what's happening inside the company when we talk about the role that the management of technology has. We talk about the management of information, the data, the artificial intelligence, the innovation. Today we can say that they are not only super technical inside the company, but have a important role, decisional, managerial inside the board. Ecco, ci racconti questa trasformazione. Assolutamente, hai perfettamente ragione. In realtà ci troviamo in un momento abbastanza importante, storico, per quanto riguarda appunto il ruolo che hanno i leader digitali, e quando dico leader digitali ovviamente intendo tutti i chief che in qualche modo hanno responsabilità dal punto di vista di information, technology, innovation, data, security e quant'altro. These figures, in some way, were seen as technical figures that had to be put behind the quinto, that had to ensure that everything worked from the point of view of systems and infrastructure, but in some way they didn't participate in the decisions of organizations from a strategic point. What changed was an important shift that was given by the digital transformation. The digital transformation is not an option, and it was so many years ago, but it is the real linfa vital for organizations and is what organizations must force be, because if they do something else, they have already done it and they are already done. This has made us some way from basement, so from semi-interruptions, and that they would pass much more time in the building, so together with decision makers. Because in some way, the digital leaders, if we think, should use the technology as a strategic leader to make sure there is a deep transformation in the organizations. But not only. They should defend the organizations from the attacks informatici, guarantee the resilience of the services, They should also value data, which is a real asset in the new oil for organizations. We think about all the platforms that have not had physical assets, but with data they can generate their business. So, in some way, the CIO, not only now, has evolved from director of systems system informatic, a chief information or innovation, ma in qualche modo stiamo arrivando anche a un passaggio da digital leader a business leader. Grazie Francesco. Allora, abbiamo parlato molto dei CIO o CIO, se vogliamo dire all'italiana, ma abbiamo scelto la versione all'inglese perché la realtà che tu rappresenti ha una dimensione internazionale. Allora, è chiaro che tutte queste trasformazioni sono trend globali. Ci racconti un po' di analogie e differenze tra la realtà italiana e le altre? So che per esempio siete partiti dal Belgio. Yes, very good. CIOnet is a community that is born 20 years ago and was created in Belgium, in the end of the year. What was the foundational idea for which is born the community of CIOnet? The fact that at the time, the CIO, and then we have 20 years ago, they had no space or at least time to confront themselves with their own on the issues that were the challenges and opportunities that they had daily, which were very similar, but, I repeat, they had no opportunity to be able to confront themselves. They had certainly opportunities to interact with suppliers, which obviously would not do anything with the consultants, but the idea that has had Andrew Deckers, our founder, is that the CIOs learn better when they share experiences, when there is a mutual exchange of knowledge and know-how, and this makes sure that the opportunities and the opportunities are the same and therefore we can learn from the others. The concept is precisely that of a certain cosmos of knowledge. From there it was born, it was expanded in a rapid way, so from Belgium we went to Germany, Italy, Spain, Poland, UK, all the Sud America, Poland, and now it is a community that has more than 11.000 members, which continue to exchange experiences and learn from each other. You said you have a share of challenges, objectives and also of practice, maybe, of the activities within the company. Let's take a look at the moment. In this moment we talk about sovereignty digital, in the national sense, and perhaps more in the European Union. What are the priorities for the digital leader? The priorities are multiple. Today we will talk about some. The digital sovereignty is certainly one of the things cardinal, because we are in a particular geopolitical moment. We have, on the one hand, the US press, which is going to amplify on a series of aspects. Datsy is obviously one of these, but there are many others. Then there is obviously a Chinese bloc. In some way, at the European level, there was a little bit of consciousness and we started thinking but I have to guarantee the resilience of my organization and I have to do that in some way to protect them but and beyond that where are we stored our data where are we stored our data and who are we also controlling them and what are the effects also on compliance of these data and so obviously at the European level we have a huge gap from a point of view of technological gap compared to the other two blocks that I have citated before but there is something we can do very well, that is what we do, we are going to do the first to bring AI Act, GDPR, Dora, NIS2, a series of studies that make sure that, in some way, we talked about it with many members of the community, that through the regulatory part there is a real transformation also in the organization. Sometimes it is almost the only way to have the budget that serve to make these transformations. Today we have the opportunity to talk about this topic and we will be facing the two points of view, the one of the national national policy with Paolo Trevisan and then we will be able to talk about the impact or at least the strategic impact of investment in digital infrastructure and data centers. will be the director of Agile, Mario Nobile. Another very important topic in our international community is the impact of the technology and artificial intelligence at the level of processes and change management in organizations. This will be a topic trattated by Valerio Lazzaroli of the International for Intelligence Artificial. You asked me what are the differences between the system italy and the other communities that we know, that of CIOnet. The challenges, as I said before, are common. Protecting the organizations from the attack informatic, the resilience, the data, compliance. These are the things that somehow we can communicate. So, a CIO, a Milano, confronts these issues as a colleague of another CIO, a Madrid or London. But there are differences that go to the regulatory part, the culture of the country, the need to invest in a strategy. And so these are obviously things in which Italy is confronted with itself and is one of the reasons why even CIO Net does this work. Let us that CIO in Italy, to confront these issues and then, at the international level, we can bring our excellence abroad and also import our best practices abroad. Insomma, alla fine Francesco è anche una question di condivisione di fare cultura del digitale dentro e fuori dal nostro paese. Allora, grazie davvero Francesco Tondi, country manager di CIO.NET, per essere stato a The Big Interview. Ci hai anche fatto una bellissima cartolina introduttiva a questa puntata e anche un po' raccontato quanti sono i diversi punti di vista che convergono su questo tema di discussione. Grazie a te Gianluca. Thank you. as I said, about the digital sovereignty and the digital sovereignty of the digital sovereignty, which is the Polo Strategic National. Tell us a little bit about how it was born and what you are concerned about. The Polo Strategic National is in a transformation process that was born several years ago, which was the desire to transform the public administration and the digitalization of the public administration. The President of the President and the National Cyber Security Council is strongly supported by Europe and the PNRR. This point of view is also the Cloud Italia strategy, where one of the three pillars is the first one is the quality of data, second is the certification of cloud services and third is the pole. In this sense, we can define the digital core, instead of the physical core, it is definitely the operative. So, this is a strategy, so the company is a partner, this is a public-private, which has a series of advantages, certainly in terms of speed. On the other hand, we have a concessionary with a convention of 13 years and this gives continuity and this is also a new thing. On the other hand, we have some socials that support what we do, important things are national championships, in particular Telecom, on infrastructure and Leonardo, certainly on services of security, but also on deposit and prestige, which are in fact known and support, more, thanks to everything we do, at the moment, I would say, 150 partners of ecosystem that work with us, so it's an initiative of the country. This is an initiative of the country. An initiative of the country that puts together, as you said, the public and private part that they necessarily need to work together in different verticals I would like to ask you something more about a vertical that Wired follows very close which is the health the digital health in a moment in which there is the PNRR etc and there is also a sustainability of the system when we talk about health, because obviously the optimization of the process, the efficient, thanks to digital, is what can allow to stay in pied, everything the system. The health is one of the fundamental pillars of which we work. The public administration that we manage vans from the community to the grand in-house, passing by metropolitan cities, by cities of Italy, and passing by realty businesses, asl and health care. in general. If we look at the results of the services that we offer, specifically on the health component, we have now, after two years and a half of work, we have over 500 people of these, about a 30% are sanitaries, so many, and we started two years ago in a startup of these companies the 50% have already finished the immigration after two years and so it's a good place so many services because in the health of the health you can have from 118 to the citizens so I CUP or I system informatics or I can't see all of the services or all of the services We have a lot of responsibility for this point. We have a lot of responsibility for this type of businesses and citizens. We have finished this week the migration of the entire region. I can't even say the name because it is still public. There are other two or three in which at least 70% of the health services are already in the national level. The level of services that we have are significantly high. Even from a point of view of security, we have a lot of reasons for the data that we have compared to the health services. So it is important. They are part of a more broad result, where these are public results. Today, after two years, they have aderinated for almost 2,5 billion dollars, which for a startup and for what we want to do is tant. They are public because the balance is public. It's a great honor. Thank you, Paolo. In fact, you have given the measures and the justice of what you have done. I would like to ask you to give a look at the future on two horizons. Maybe we'll start from the end of the PNRR. Obviously, we have been talking about months more than years. At the end of this journey, what are the goals that you have put into the end of the PNRR? All right, we have results in the brief and, as you say, in the medium and long term. All right, let's go to the brief. All right, we have been doing this for the Mystone. We have been doing this for the last 100 public administration in which we have migrated one of the main services, which is called Gold. Now the next milestone is June 26th, in which we have to have migrated 280 public administrations in full, completely. Today we are at about 200, it's a 70%, we have still a year ahead, the effort is so much, I think we are in this moment the only reality that which is a system and ecosystem, with almost 150 migrations in parallel. I came to a system integration first, after 24 years of work on this topic, and I assure you that it is absolutely scontable. This is the first milestone, and we will take it absolutely, we will have already some numbers that we can afford on this. What else is there? We have done what we call basic, in terms of security services, in terms of sovereignty data, because we are the unites, at the European level, to have this setting. So, partenariate public-private with cloud services, sovereign or with integration of security services, and today we have all of them. not one that we need. On the other hand, we have done a work, this is previsto in convention, on the amplification of our list of services. This is a reality that is born in 2022 and that came from a gara. You can imagine that the development of cloud services from 6 months in 6 months is an epoch geological. Before we talked about artificial intelligence, we just need 6 weeks, not 6 months. So now, a brief, After a work done in the last year in conjunction with the Department and also by looking at the market and the technology, we will go with a new list. The new list for the sovereign services is 4x compared to what was in 2022, so we have done a great job. much of this is related to the artificial intelligence which we had before, we had in part very related to the generative models even open source and Italian I can begin to anticipate another great area where we have worked is the world of security which was in part but not so strong which we are now there is a whole thing of service of services, of platforms so much power on the list also of the high-rescaller where today we have about 45.000 services that are securized, where the data is managed by the public administration, the IPA scale doesn't can manage that data. This is one of the topics. Another topic on which we will be in particular, having done what we did in these years, now we're going to move on to innovation. I don't know anything about anything, but it will happen in the next two months. So we will definitely try this together with this, together with the ecosystem. Thank you, Paolo. So that we can't anticipate anything about the projects, but I have an last question. I want to ask you a question that represents a reality called Apollo Strategies, so that for the need of vision, which is a challenge for even more hard in a moment in which the digital acceleration is tal, as you said, 6 months have become a geological. If we could look forward, not to do futurology, but to find out and to find out the strategic plan. Is there one that orientes your work when you look at the future? There is a question that we look at from over a year and that will surely find out in the medium term, which is the federated model of the national policy policy central, compared to regional. On this we have surely the desire, the desire, in reality we have already put the first mattes to build edge node models and, on the other hand, to gestion a cloud continuum between a central and a distributive model, and this is because it is public, we have started with a first We will have a new, which is called 39 Digital, to develop an MOU, where we will develop a first model of Edge Node. Thank you very interesting. We can call it the topology of infrastructure on the national scale. Thank you for being with us. Paolo Trevisan, Chief Technology Information Officer of the National Polo Strategic. The next guest in the next episode of this big interview is Mario Nobile, the director of the Agit, the Agency for the Digital Digital. Thank you, Nobile, for being here. Thank you, good evening. First question, very didascalical, regarding the role of your agency. What is and what is needed to be the public administration for being able to say that of a country, of an Italy digital? All right, let's go from what is already. because what is what is needed and what is missing is the same side of the medal, so we have to grow. But the positive side of the medal is that I am in Oslo for the Internet Governance Forum of the United Nations and there is a international recognition of the number of countries like Italy, which is a small country because it has 59 million inhabitants, but has more than 40 million of digital identity, more than 35 million of certified qualified digital certificates, more than 17 million of PEC. So in the international context we are are respected as a country that has numbers, which is obviously the number of digitalization, which is evident that what we need to work is the speed, and that they serve forms of aggregation and forms of service together, service unification. Because when I talk to the colleague Danese that I met a little ago, The Denmark has 6 million inhabitants, so a tenth of Italy, and 97 communities. When he tells us that we have 7904, he doesn't believe it. Now, in the past, because the italianism and the desire to maintain communes with few inhabitants is a matter that goes beyond our discussion, what is needed is the aggregation. If we have 7904 comuns, and we are in this phase, because Pago.PA has about 40 million dollars per month, if we talk about new services, we can't allow for years to reach the future For the years, to reach public and private, because this dichotomy between public and digital digital is very much faster, we must be very fast. So, to answer your question, we start from a situation that is not necessarily negative, that is, that is recognized internationally as a situation of leadership in terms of number of inhabitants. We have to be very fast to be able to get to the goal in a way the most possible in the same way. Thank you, Nobile. Obviously, the first question was a bit sfidant, because we know that the point of start is more than good for our country. The next question, part of a concept that is obvious for the people who follow Wired Italia, is the strategical investment in digital infrastructures, which we can give, in fact, as a common consensus. What I would like to ask is Qual is the impact that an investment in digital infrastructure can give and what does it mean in 2025 for digital infrastructure? Allora, enorme, e le rispondo con una battuta, visto che io sono un direttore generale in aspettativa del Ministero delle Infrastrutture e dei Trasporti, e sono stato uno dei papà del decreto Smart Road, quindi quello che abilitava le infrastrutture di trasporto al digitale e che consentiva anche le sperimentazioni della guida autonoma, where it is not very publicized but we have great university professors, I refer to Amici, the Politecnico of Milan, the Federico II of Napoli and other universities that have been a leader in the industry. You think that a km of autostrada, according to the geography of the territory, The digital cost of the cost of 20 and 50 million euros. Because obviously if we go to Penninica or to the Alps, there are viadots and gallery that raise the cost. The digital cost is a marginally low. So, to a km that costs from 20 to 50 million euros of transport, In 2008, inserire 1 milione di euro di digitale è anche troppo. This makes sense how the investment in digital has positive externalities and negative effects because if I put the digital digital, I mean that I do structural health monitoring, so I can monitor the infrastructure, I can give services to the utility, I can advise and give those that are called CITS, Cooperative Intelligence Transportation System, quindi tutto quel rilancio che noi oggi vediamo con delle app su smartphone, ma che in realtà ci stiamo preparando a erogare come gestori di infrastruttura. So this is the answer, in the sense that it is not evasive, but it is not to be enough to study it because the numbers are these. The investment is sometimes not visible. We talk about the international context as the where I am now, of digital public infrastructure and building blocks, the Lego blocks that compose. Think about building blocks of the electronic fatturization, which in many countries, even advanced, is not so pervasive. In Italy, the electronic fatturization that is managed by friends of the Entity and the rules and the rules of the guide, as all the others are written in Agid, process 2,3 billion dollars in a year, B2B, B2G and B2C. Now, when I talk to other colleagues from other countries and say that you are very fortunate, you have all these electronic bills and how can you spare compared to controls anti-frode, anti-ciclage or one of the Italian problems that we know, that is the fiscal evasion. So the cost of the SD is marginally compared to find a great evasor, because obviously if you ask what you have received cartaceous in the last year, probably you will not be able to recall. Thank you What is the model that you think is virtuous of collaboration between public and private It is fundamental to the public and private collaboration because there are some elements that must remain in the head of the State and represent the maximum of the security and the affidability possible This is also related to the context in which one is located and a state. From our point of view, we as Italian and European, we are obviously asking of the state. There are other countries in the world where human rights and the right to dissent bring to an approach a little different. So, this is a good premise, some blocks, some blocks, that are good that they are managed by the State for a discourse of security, of affidability and of respect to the rights of people. I diritti delle persone sono il diritto, ovviamente la libertà di pensiero, la libertà religiosa, la libertà da diversi punti di vista, ma anche la protezione di quelle informazioni. Then there are other elements, and think about building blocks that I mentioned earlier, think about the progress that we have done with digital firms, with electronic companies, and there is a formidable example of public-private partnership, which often in Italy is a slogan, but in digital we have really applied it, where it is clear that the markets don't be auto-regulated, It's clear that if you go to Agile, you can find various sanctions that we do with trusted services, so that we can find the trusted services, but it's clear that the private tries to push on the confines, because it tries to find an innovative technology better, that costs less, that gives the best service. This is fundamental to me, and we can't think, unless we take an example Korea North, to an activity only involved by the State. This is our future. This is the political part, but in a very conjunto, If we think that certain operations are guaranteed by the State for the State to protect the citizens and the companies, other operations should be going to market just because the State can be more slow, the public can not have the interest to pushing the boundaries, which we say, we must push the boundaries. Insomma, a look at the front of innovation to be better, but also to protect the state. the national strategy and obviously the rights and principles that are at the base of our management. One last question, is just a little bit from Agit, very rich and very deep, on the effect of artificial intelligence and especially on how to govern better the insert of AI within the public administration and not only. Can you give a few highlights The report is already old, because it refers to a study of an animal technology that was six months ago and that has already evolved. The study is about some good experiences and good practices. The problems are those that I would like to say in two categories. the data is essential for any instrument without having to avoid the ultimati curve of artificial intelligence. I'm abroad, I'm in the area where the oil and olive oil is more or less present in all regions. The oil and olive oil is not for a chance, someone who takes the olive oil, takes the olive oil, The data has a similar perspective, it is complex because it can be spazial, not spazial, in time real, not in time real, so it has a few facets, but if you don't dedicate energy to the quality of the data, reduce the value of the instruments that you use. Second, cultural and public, the fear of sharing, the intent of having a position of power in more. This happens in public, happens in private, because there are no flowers and flowers when different functions of an private organization have to exchange information. These are the two elements on which work. What is happening now, and this is why the report is already old, is that, with a gene AI very fuffous, generic in terms of applications, we are seeing how this agentic AI, which is based on a function that will modify the process, will change much. I will show you two examples very intently. In the public, the agent K.I. consent of using agent for those that we call the events of life. We have for years designed processes that were, I'm going to go to the city, I'm going to go to the city, I'm going to go to the city, I'm going to write an office, giving us a report that she, if she was born, she would know that the state of birth the public, the pediatra will choose the site of the region and if it serves a popular house or social housing, it will go to the site of the IACP. Today the people speak in natural language, they do the work that he does, potentially, in a brief, I will allow you to use my digital identity, and will give information that I don't know that I know, and then maybe he will say that I can be eligible for a bonus which I ignore the existence. In private and organizations, today there is an e-commerce process designed in the digital service where maybe I propose a financing, a service in more, but I can't afford to get the complexity of the reality. The agent will be able to advise the client in a mancata spedizione, senza aspettare che il cliente chiami il call center. Ecco, questa è la rivoluzione. Lo studio è vecchio perché queste tecnologie hanno una curva di uscita e di maturazione di settimane o mesi, nella migliore delle ipotesi. Quindi lo studio ci conferma che le due criticità sono quelle che ho detto prima, but it's a new approach because today we have the K-A-I, tomorrow we have an AI that simulates a organizational behavior and other. So as you know, since I read with pleasure Wired, both international and national, because it tries to take the roots of evolution of technology, unfortunately we have to change our way of thinking, It's not more in years or in triennials that we can accogliere this effort. Thank you, Mario Nobile. The evolution so rapid is that we should invite you even more often to participate in The Big Interview. Thank you to the director of the Digital Digital Agency, Agit, Mario Nobile, for being here at The Big Interview, doppiamente anche per il collegamento da Oslo a questa live che stiamo registrando dalla Bocconi. Grazie. Grazie a lei e a voi. Proseguiamo. Subito l'ultima domanda che abbiamo fatto a Mario Nobile legata all'intelligenza artificiale, alle evoluzioni, ci permette di passare alla prossima ospite che è Valeria Lazzaroli, presidente dell'Ente Nazionale per l'Intelligenza Artificiale, ENIA, Oltre che Chief AI Officer di uno spin-off del Politecnico di Torino che si chiama Arisk Benvenuta anzitutto a The Big Interview Bentrovato e grazie infinite di questo invito che mi onora Allora, partiamo proprio dall'impatto dell'intelligenza artificiale all'interno delle organizzazioni Siano imprese o d'altro genere Forse siamo andati già oltre quella che è la fase di hype Nel senso che siamo nel momento storico in cui guardiamo alla concretezza In the practical, what is happening? In the practical, nothing is happening. In the sense that the AIP is transformed into a commercial moment. The companies start to interpret what could be the efficiency of the process that is habilitated by AI, especially by the generative. What we have not seen and what we don't see is the change of the organizational assets of companies that remain deprived of those functions that, beyond what is the prescription of the normative, they must have for sure if they have reached the digital maturity of data. Cartine and tornasole are already our privacy that we see that for a lot of in-essere but with all the deficits of the case, because we see that they are quite postice in the the re-laboration of a data or a track record that should be traceable in any point of the company. We can't find that this data is not treated, so we ask what will be in the future the acquisition of all these tools of the generative, where there is no padronanza né della governance dell'AI e quindi della governance anche dell'azienda stessa. Ecco, quest'ultimo punto della governance si inserisce anche in un momento in cui, a livello di inquadramento normativo, siamo in una situazione non solo in evoluzione rapida, ma anche molto complessa. Abbiamo un AI Act europeo che esiste, ma forse non è ancora del tutto implementato, abbiamo una nuova normativa nazionale che sta facendo pian piano il proprio iterative in the parliament and we have as a technology that changes from week to week. In this marasm, how do we manage this? All right, if we stop a moment, a moment of mindfulness, and we start to reward the IEA Act that probably could in the future be derubricated, because, say honestly, they化عمims in a full economy, and decide that they will depend on the Mess. So necessary to learn how to share crescent Lara healthy Makeover BEN. yeah, realize something I mean to perform differently. The world so that could vote for asname signaling to follow, a model, if not it would be completely normative, it would be for us to interpret it what is an intention for us of AI. We talk about ethics, but a purpose, because one thing that I would like to say when we talk about ethics is to be in three groups, the morale, the profession, and then the vision of life. So, if this is already clear, think of not having a normative referent that in any way can be a sort of constant alert to remind us what is the value of the human being. This is very important. And I say that in Enia, what we say is that we don't have to be in the center. We have already in the center. We have to make it so strong and competent to put the technology in the center, in the way that our freedom, thanks to the knowledge, we allow ourselves to use it in any way, or not. I would like to start from that one in three of the ethics of which we said in particular the ethics professional, the second, if I'm not mistaken, that's the second, that's the second, that's the second, that's the second. We know that the artificial intelligence impacts on the skills, on the training, on the training, on the professional, on the organization. I am sure that the issue is extremely vast, but how can we find a synthesis to make it to be a tool to be a human being and not a pervasive or a scazant? The big issue is the training, we are all of them, but we have seen what is on the market, costs are super high, in the sense that they are not at all, courses that are instituted without asking the competencies of the start of who is the student. If it is true, it is true that the AI is not only generative, so they are not only black box, So I'm not going to do prompt engineering, but I'm going to learn through math and statistics what are the principles and philosophy, and then from this epistemical study, to agganize process of a business. But this is done, and I often see, even in university courses, and I really do it, on the fact that we don't talk about it. We were not very strong in the area STEM, we were all about it. We have high-end indicators, for example, for example, we have low-end innovation. And if we go to the innovation index with the increase of the generative, we can see the very strong convergence. Look! We are inventors, and so, as we are, the only thing is to do, to make a form of alphabetization as a popular way. There is no formality. It should be from the lower, in the industry, in the public administration. So, we create a cultural structure, which is a spin, a spontaneous motion. But access to the formation must be like freedom. We must be formed. I like the reference to the cultural model, this way of collectively taking care of technology. Today we are within an university, you work with another university, so the academic world, the form of training, and then the specialization of those who will in the future will be in an artificial intelligence that for today still exists. How do we form the young and the young people who will work? Allora, abbiamo delle università che sono delle eccellenze tutte qui, in particolare, ma anche Politecnico di Milano, Torino, in generale c'è un'ottima qualità. Cos'è che manca lo studente universitario? Manca la percezione di che cosa avvenga nel momento in cui partecipa a un processo, diciamo, legato alla creazione di un algoritmo? the way to see this algorithm, but then the way to see that change from the technological transformation to what could be already in the university, a passage towards the open innovation. And there is a great assent. I put the finger in a good way to finance and to the bank, because they are the great assent that are not allowing of creating a dialectical constant on what is the scale up how much does an algorithm who would say this thing a meeting with the financial financial system would also be the perception of the inventors of the university itself, to orient those projects that are not only on commitment. I tend to understand that the finance could be supported in some processes. And the bank, the finance, to that point, must be more connected to the public and private system. All right, we talk about interoperability of data. That is when, from the interoperability of data, we create a series of information that everyone, so every stakeholder, can make a value of each other, with each other doing the same. An other big antide לה Hmmmасsame is a little more than he still traveling did you go to a call of knowledge, of knowledge, of knowledge, of research, and that our country has, converting it into something that can also be a business, of economic value. That is what I said before, when there is a dialectical on what is the value of a beta, the multiple, which quickly can intervene even in the phase of seed on an algorithm and understand how to value it, It would be to activate a series of mechanisms that will not go into the spin-off. I am in crisis of business, I am not. Because I am deep tech and I need to be able to do years to consolidate my research. If I arrive and enter the financial suffering, I don't know what to say to your partner, you don't know what to say to who you have financed, and this creates that constant that we have in Italy of the start-up. So, if you create a large incubator, a quasi public, between universities that give in a sort of score, and say that it is of public utilisation, we try to protect it with the form that can be made, So if a deep tech should be incubated for 5-7 years, something less, but with pragmatic criteria that the project management sometimes does as an indication. In terms of the project management, there is also the to look at the next step. Today, when we talk about artificial intelligence, there is the trend that we have already mentioned, artificial intelligence agent. We talk about multi-agent, so that they can collaborate between them. What could be the next steps? Or when these multi-agent agents will be in the application? I have a dream. I have a dream. I have a dream. I have a dream. I have a dream. I have a dream. I have a dream. I have a dream. I have a PhD. I have a PhD in psychology and I was able to do it in a clinic with many patients with dementia senile. I think that an entire population should be reversed in the RSA where deprivation and and they are lost because it becomes a number of them. While thinking that a robot, maybe with the bellies LLM made in Italy, can instead allow a form of self-sufficiency in their own home is a big deal. So, as Enia, we will do an activity where, using the public affairs, we will not call the lobby, but we will call ourselves all the help to make a robot field, where we will see the exponential of the multiagent, and, in other words, we will be able to make it acceptable in the next few years. In the artificial intelligence that also assumes a physical dimension inside an object. Well, banalmente, there are a bamboline. There is an Italian professor, who is the professor Vigorelli, which basically gives a narrative on the fact that often we lose the decadence when we stop talking. So it would be the creation of some bambolines that are robotized and then, in the perception of what is the decadence, to activate a conversation, so that an adult doesn't have to be silent for too long and then restituisca, even thanks to a real and real dialogue, what could be a maintenance of the brain. Interesting perspective for our country. Thank you for being here to the big interview. Valeria Lazzaroli, President of the National Intelligence for the Artificial Intelligence Enea. We continue with the next guest, Jacopo Moschini, President of the Giovan Imprenditori Confindustria Lombardia and expert panel of Open Innovation, because we want to understand, again, how the artificial intelligence, and we have talked about it also with the guests that we have listened to a little bit ago, is entering into the world of companies, is determining an impact. And we could ask if not to who represents the industry. All right, I'll start from here. Moschini, what impact has he had and expect you to have the artificial intelligence? We are just in the middle of the wave, in the sense that we have started a few years ago with the whole world 4.0 and today we have brought all this data that the artificial intelligence is trying to work and interpret it. So today our businesses are going to have a more and more awareness. For example, at the national level, we have passed from 5% to 8% in the 2024 of companies with more than 10 employees. So, a PMI media has already adopted some solutions. So we're at 8%, a number very low. In Lombardia we are a little more advanced, in the sense that about the 50% of the companies have adopted, they are thinking, they are doing studies of fattibilization, but this makes us understand how it is to go. I see in my companies, in the world of services, two years ago, that they were working different. It's an evolution that is so fast, so we can't recommend it, even as a system of representance of companies, trying to tell the best practices, trying to get the responsibility of the entrepreneurs to make the reasoning. I'll give you an example, but that can make the idea and be a bit disruptive from this point of view. We don't remember the cost of work, but tomorrow our productivity will be only artificial intelligence so maybe we can go to a company with the cost of energy or other things if we are entering an evolution mondial geopolitical because now we are in business and this unfortunately we are all in the day with these scenarios apocalyptic that we never thought about but with which we have to do our own business especially in Lombardia which is a manufacturing company, but Italy itself is the second manufacturing company but it doesn't matter to make a decision to take into consideration the impact of this technology which certainly impacts, but impacts in many things in our business to maintain our competitiveness. The effect of the artificial intelligence from the single role of working to the entire organization artificiale. It's notable, we're already seeing it, for sure we'll see it with more force and evidence in the years. In the case that the artificial intelligence changes, or at least can change, there are also the models themselves with which we can bring innovation into the company. All right, we talk about spin-off, we talk about startup, we talk about open innovation. The question that I would like to ask you is if these formulas, these ways of inquadraising for example, to formalize innovation, can be a way to digitalize better the small and medium, but also the large companies of our country. Let's start with a consideration. We, unfortunately, are seeing in the last two years a decrease in the number of startup innovative in Italy. A front of a increase in PMI innovative, which means that there is also an evolution of the model. We, Confindustria, the young people of Confindustria, have tried to understand the importance of the growth of new companies, but that is not based on a model that is not ours, that is the Silicon Valley, that is the other European countries, but we have a value on how to create a growth, a growth, and that is not based on the real value of the real industry, the PMI. I think that the PMI is the center for starting, in the eye of open innovation, to work with the start-up, with the research center, with the spin-off. I think that we should find a way to find a way to grow, because we have seen that so it doesn't work and it doesn't work. So, we are trying to promote a collaboration that can then put on earth the growth in a concrete way. Because before it was Valeria Lazzaroli, who told her experience as a startup in an industry that was very deep tech, but at a certain point she was fermated. We can't allow this thing anymore, because they spend the capital that they collect in startup, which then they die, and they don't have sense. So we have to find a concrete way. I think that the most concrete thing we have in our Italian economy is the PMI. So we have to start with the PMI at the center, which can be done by the way, because we can't think that the skills today can only be in the company in the company, but to get into the PMI, and to work with an ecosystem that is made by the actors typical of Open Innovation. We have to find a way to find innovation. We are also saying that our own tissue imprenditorial is made by PMI, so it has found a way to conciliate the identity and peculiarity of our country with these trends. I would like to take a moment to take a moment, as you said earlier, how we are putting together the public and private part that represents the institutions and the companies. So, let us take a moment, what does the company, the industry, when it comes to digitalization, when it comes to artificial intelligence, to be able to not only govern and govern, but also to be able to do it at best? Well, it's certainly a conscience, but today we are, as we say, in this way, I believe that in this moment we are. Maybe a few months ago it wasn't like this, but today the consciousness is absolutely and we have a lot of companies that export, as we know, the made in Italy in the world, so the awareness is arrived. So now that there is a awareness, we have to find a method, because we have a big problem. In the last 10 years we have lost 367.000 young students who are going abroad, we have lost 153.000 new companies that are going abroad or that they have not been made to grow, and this we can't allow it anymore, we are in a world where we need 670.000 technical professionals, before we were talking about the STEM, the DTS, today we don't have enough, so what do we need? We need competencies and the competencies are formed, so we need a real reform, formativa because we see two and a half I was a kid I didn't use an artificial intelligence but they were taught and this stuff doesn't work so we have and we have said recently we have excellent Italian in the Italian of the university I think it is impossible that these universities don't find a way to accelerate, to see a program that is old, to be careful because it is because it is a world that was that of two years ago, in the best way of the hypothesis. And this is not what we can do. So there is a need of reform struttural reform, so as we need to do other reform. Because as young entrepreneurs we recently launched the concept of a future filial. Mancano da troppi anni all'interno del nostro paese di investimenti che guardino al futuro. Non si può pensare solo di guardare ai sessantenni per un tema di voti. Se qua non si guarda il futuro alla natalità, alla formazione, a trattenere i giovani. Questo paese morirà. Quindi per forza di cose c'è bisogno di una presa di coscienza su fare delle riforme attuative che guardino al futuro. Tra queste chiaramente anche la formazione. Chiarissimo, grazie. Jacopo, I would like to go to the conclusion of this episode, a little by taking what was the beginning, which is how is changing within the companies the role of who is working on the technology, so that we talk about CIOs or the chiefs that are working on information, cybersecurity, innovation, etc. You, which represents an ensemble of companies, different sectors, etc. What are you seeing about the evolution of the role of the management of technology in the single reality? There is certainly a conscious importance of all these technologies that you have mentioned, but also a conscious part of the top management. that before maybe there was only the IT, but now it's not just the IT, that is now the technology is entered in CDA, because it becomes a strategic topic, it's a competitive factor for the companies. So it's changed the importance of the technology, because it's a big issue, depending on whether it's an industry, which are in a forte crescita, or whether it's an industry manufacturer. Today, for you to give a little bit of a slogan, the technology is entrata in CDA, it's all the day of the CDA because the company doesn't matter from making strategies of this kind. So it's a strategic strategy within the company, outside and as a system in the complex. Thank you again to Jacopo Moschini, President of the Giovan Imprenditori Confindustria Lombardia and Expert Panel Open Innovation for being with us at The Big Interview. We are arrived at the end of this episode, continue to follow the big interview on the Wired channel, a shout out live from Bocconi, from which we have registered this episode, a thank you for this episode, with whom this episode is done in collaboration with Gianluca Dotti, and a soon, bye!