OB425: Navigating IFR Frequency Land, Part 3

What you saw here today, what live happened in real time, was me coming to this realization that I have missed this blurb in the 7110 for a long time. So that just shows you I've almost been doing this for 15 years. There is no end to your learning. Ready. Welcome to opposing bases air traffic talk, an aviation podcast by two air traffic controllers and rated pilots who love to talk about flying, controlling and everything in between. The show is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as a substitute for your instructor, your supervisor, the FAA, the NTSB or your cat. The show will give you a better understanding of how things work in the national airspace system and maybe even make you life along the way. Please welcome retired Army pilot Alpha Golf and first officer at Penguin Airlines Romeo Hotel. It's Wednesday, February 18th, 2026 episode 425 on today's show. We'll continue the conversation about arguably the most training-friendly airspace in the NAS. Revisit ATC zero during storms and change listeners lives. What's up, Bay G? Hello, hello, everyone. Happy Wednesday. Yes. Double hitter Wednesday. Mmm. We are pretty much in a Wednesday routine now. I think that's gonna be the the norm. I think it has to be for now. Yep. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I am back from a short trip for my wife's very important birthday that I'm not allowed to talk about and I like being on a cruise ship. I decided I want to do that full-time and do this life thing maybe a few days a year. Just make that your lifestyle. Yeah. If I was on a cruise, I would gain probably a hundred pounds within a month or two. Mm-hmm. That would be healthy. Mm-hmm. We have a kind of a no elevator rule. Yeah, I like that. You'll get your steps in. How many stories are we talking about on a cruise ship? Well, our room was on 10. We went up to 16 a lot and we were on the floor and you know, where our passengers are is down to like the six, seven region. So there's a 10 floor range of floors you can be on where you wanted to be doing something. Either your room or 10. You're at the 16? Yeah. That's a haul. Mm-hmm. Your legs are feeling it by then. Yeah. You're probably breathing hard too. You get up to the top of the stairs for breakfast and you have to take a deep Okay, we made it. Yeah. My legs actually burned a little bit after the week. Yeah. Six flights at a time is it's good exercise on it. So that prevented us from gaining as much weight as we could have gained maybe. Question mark? The weather was great. The ship was great. The people were great. We're already planning our next one. Cool. Hmm. How's triad been? Uh, good. I think I had a four day weekend. Uh-huh. Excellent. Which is very heavily contrasted with the weekends I have coming up. Which don't exist. Which are non-existent. Although and I'm feeling, I'm already feeling pretty tired, you know. Mm-hmm. I hear you. Yeah, I mean you gotta, you could plan ahead for fatigue. Yeah. You know your body better than anybody. I do. I know what's, I already know what's gonna happen. Right. Mm-hmm. So to speak. Uh-huh. Yeah. The snow is melted and it's warm. It's warm here. Almost. I have a chunk. I still have a chunk by the front door. Oh nice. Protected by shade of your house. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yes. Did you know that's why the, in the Northern Hemisphere, the North face of a mountain is typically steeper and more snow covered? Mm-hmm. And that is where that name comes from. The clothing? Yes. Oh, okay. Yeah. I like that. The North side of my house was the last part of the house to see snow melt. Yeah. So the university that's here, I guess, the best I can tell is they put all their snow into trucks and they hauled it to the mall, the abandoned mall parking lot and dumped it there. That snow will be there until June. Are you serious? They did that here? Yes. Really? It is a mountain of snow covering probably three acres. It's still there. I drove by it the other day. It won't disappear for a long time. It could be a glacier. It might be a glacier. Are there people trying to climb it? Not yet, but it's just a matter of time. Mm-hmm. My phone tried to show me every video of snow removal during these snow storms. And there are some places in the world that really have it down pat. They take it away in a truck. Yeah. They have a blower pushing it into the top of a truck and they just drive it away. And there's a convoy of trucks. Oh, yeah. Staggered. Where would you put it all on the city streets? If you get two feet of snow, right. With cars on the street? Yeah, just a pile on the sidewalk. And then the poor people in New York, I do feel bad for them because they don't do that in New York. They just plow it into your car so there's an ice wall. Oh, you wanted to drive that? Cool. Call us in April. Yeah. Yeah, we plowed the roads, but no one can get to them. Yeah, there's no traffic. By the way, where is my car? Yeah. Out there pushing the alarm button. Hopefully you can hear it. Yeah. We came back through Miami. I don't remember ever going to that airport. It's a very strange airport. I don't think I've ever been there. It's a very long terminal. If you don't take the train, you could walk for, it's probably a mile long. Wow. It's not short. Yeah. Wow. And we were there all day because the direct flight that I booked got moved back three or four hours after the time that I booked it. It wasn't delayed. But I didn't want to go through Metroplex or some other place. I just didn't want to do that. No, no. So we went downtown Miami and hung out a little bit. Little Havana. Had some nice local food. I love that sandwich. Send me a picture of that sandwich. It was delicious. I love that. Shall we begin? Let us begin. All right. Since OB424, we have some new members on the iceberg. Kila Mike, Julie Romeo, Brava Charlie, Mike Hotel, Tango Charlie and Tango Hotel. And we got PayPal drops from Alpha Charlie and Delta Mike. If you've been enjoying the show, you can take it to the next level by joining our premium feed on Supercast. Supporters get on time episodes with no delay. Our back catalog, access to our live stream recording like now. Bonus audio and a direct line to us through our supporter only email. You'll keep the show ad free and 100% community supported. You can learn more at opposingbases.supercast.com. Thank you, everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And announcements. What would you like to do? I'll take the review and one announcement, I think. I think that's appropriate. I agree to that. Okay, go. The review five stars titled staying sharp been listening for the majority of my flight training in my Mooney and recently completed and passed my IFR check ride. Congrats. In the great white North, OB has been invaluable in keeping my head in the game between flights as a private pilot with a busy professional life. I truly think you made my IFR flight training much more efficient speaking to center frequency. The first time felt like a non-event. Thanks to the confidence I have on the radio courtesy of your show. I appreciate all you do for aviation. Making this podcast must be a tremendous amount of work. Keep it up, Juliet. Hotel from Canada. Canadian. Where snow is normal. Where there is just snow. You know, if you're training in parts of the country that have a lot of snow, let me add this to your shopping list of things to look for. Flight schools with hangar airplanes. I wish. Heated. Heated hangar. Okay, might be asking a little bit too much, but at least protected by the from the elements. Maybe it's a little bit above freezing so snow doesn't stay on the plane when you put it back. That kind of thing, but when I did my flight training, I happened to move to Massachusetts during the coldest winters on record and we had hangars. It's really not that funny. It's not. It's terrible. Terrible. So if you have access to a place with a hanger, even if it's just to put the plane in, you know, a couple of hours before you get there, hook up an engine preheater on it and get everything that was accumulated on the ramp off of it, man, life would be so much easier. So think about that when you're shopping for flight schools. So when we, especially on night flights, when we would be out two or three ships are out training, it was a race because typically there would be one, maybe two spots to put an aircraft in the hanger. If you were back first, you're going in the hanger. Have I ever talked about the blade covers? You did once, but I want to hear it again. It's a terrible. What a terrible invention. Imagine your fingers as cold as they've ever been, completely useless, no feeling. I can't even tell where my hands are. I don't even sure that they're attached. If they weren't attached, I wouldn't really know the difference. Now, now in this state of feeling or not feeling, I'm asking you in the freezing cold, standing on a platform 16 feet above the ground, to which there is no safety rail or anything. Oh, show us the nightmare. Right. To put a cover on a rotor head, that this cover is probably eight feet wide. Okay. That has to be zipped. The most intricate of zippers must be attached underneath, underneath the blade, underneath the hub, in the most impossible fashion. And it's dark and freezing and windy. It's dark and freezing, windy, cold, snowing. You cannot feel most of your body. Now, you are willing to cut your flight time short and be first to park in the hangar where there is heat and light and no requirement for putting head covers on. Yeah. Let's bring back terrible memories of the wing covers we had. Yeah, because if you didn't put them on and the plane is all icy. Yeah, they were more for the fact they had these bumpers on them to prevent the wings from working while it was tied down and flying away. Right. Yeah. Right, sure. They were basically lip spoilers. Now, they had a netting to it and it would help if there was, it's got to be like that perfect type of precip to actually pull it off because the wing cover would get glued to the, it would be part of the frozen precip. Right. Right. Because it was mesh. Yeah, you're not flying anyway. But the plane is still there. This is really what they're for. So if you're, okay, your plane's outside, it gets iced, snowed, whatever. You're waiting for the sun? Yes. Okay, that's not, we're in the same boat. Yes, you move them. You can move it around and get a little better angle on the sun and, but that first flight of the day, maybe two blocks worth, the six o'clock and the eight o'clock block, they're done. They're not going anywhere because we had brooms, but you're going to damage the wings if you try, you know, really getting the ice off and they weren't going to pay for us to de-ice the airplane. Right. Oh, this lesson only costs an extra thousand dollars. Yeah. If the Hangar aircraft weren't flyable, we would pull one out and put the frozen one inside and they would crank up the heat. Right. And in a couple hours, it would be ready to go. How do you want the first announcement? The first announcement from Patron, Supercaster. Patron. Juliet Sara is a CFI. Congrats. Congrats. And this is, yeah, Juliet Sara is from the midlife. Midwest. Midwest, I'm sorry, yes, midlife, Midwest. Easily confused, the Midwest pilot podcast. That's right. Congrats. Cool. Thank you. Number two, Supercaster Juliet Oscar got his commercial multi-rating. Congrats. He sent an update from the home of the famous Miracle Whip Hospital south of the Vikings Bravo. I passed my commercial multi-engine check ride earlier this month. My instrument rating was this summer and my commercial single was last winter. Congrats on those. Thank you so much for your show. R.H., thank you for the bonus audio detailing the challenges of airline training. It is extremely well done and rich in detail. Keep up the great work. Well, cool. Thanks for the note. Nice. And congrats. And number three, Supercaster Alpha Mike is a CFI. Congrats. This has been a great week. I started off with the elation of passing my flight instructor check ride out of the max birthplace Delta under the Coffee Bravo after months of prep, including the consumption of the OB archives at record speeds. The oral was a breeze and we were done well before lunch. I was relieved to avoid an eight hour horror story like we hear so often. The flight was fun too with possibly the greatest short field landing on my life and a less impressive left eight on pylon. You know, the eight on pylon just take them away. They're also just chandels and eights on pylons. Just have them. I don't want to hear about them again. Good for you. Congrats to cap things off the Seahawks won the Super Bowl. I'm sure this triumph can be credited to the bird forward attitude of this show. Thanks for the great show. All the best Alpha Mike. Cool. Congrats. And I'm glad to see if I check ride was less than eight hours. That's not the that's not the norm. Probably there are there are some outliers that are in that time span. I think a bigger challenge now is finding a DP that can do those rides and that's available in the next century. Before plasma propulsion takes over. Right. We have it. We found a DP. The bad news is they're no longer going to be with us by the time you can schedule this check ride. They actually did the Wright Brothers first check ride. Yeah. Who checked those guys out? Exactly. I want to see the paperwork. Okay. Moving on. Time to feedback. I'm leaving back. I'm exhausted. Your turn. I offered to do two of those you did to. I thought you said the review and the first review or the first announcement which had no words. So I felt like you were telling me to do the two with words. Oh, good point. I'm sorry. Number one from Penguin Out of Tradolima Greetings, gents for a change of pace. I'm foregoing a Greek epic length story that ends up as a show topic and passing along a quick note that the community might find helpful or validating. A pilot buddy of mine sent along a link that visualizes ADSB traffic in three dimensions. What's neat about this site is that you can also visualize airspace boundaries and view aircraft breadcrumbs to a maximum length with a slider for full effect to see exactly what you've been telling us for years just because you're not in the class Bravo Charlie or Delta doesn't mean that you're not in the way. I looked at O'Hare for example and visually it becomes very clear that loitering above the Bravo is a really, really biblically stupid idea. Ignoring that for a second you get a better sense of the arrival and departure flows at your home airport like where they keep arrivals so departures can get out. I think we could read that website. It'll take up a lot of your spare time. It's really fun. Yeah, so objectiveunclear.com forward slash heirloom.html. I think you can, maybe that's just the way they copied it but if you head over there you can type in the airport and give it a couple seconds. It'll start showing traffic moving around. Remember, the small number of air traffic scenes in Pushington? Yes. Where they showed his brain thinking about it. Yeah, thinking about it. Yeah, it reminded me of that. It's colorful. You can move around. You could take an overhead look. You could be sink down. Are you looking at one? Yes, I'm mesmerized instantly. It's amazing. You're a controller. Hold on. Let me remind everybody, the view from a controller's perspective is 2D. I mean, we're looking at a, looking down essentially. Yes. You have to read the data blocks to imagine the third dimension of altitude. Yeah, right. So seeing this picture, we just watched AG's face light up like, this is amazing. I love this. Look at this. Share your screen. You've got the center. You've got stuff overhead. What it also does is this is, this seems like it's to scale in terms of the altitudes. Yep. And you realize that it's really not that high. It's not really not as high as you think that like, Right. A runway is about a mile or two long. Let's just say two from average runway. Yeah. 10,000 feet. In 10,000 feet, we have 10 usable altitudes. Right. For airplanes to merge. Right. And these guys in the flight levels are only two runways above them. Yeah. Very close. It's very cool. If you want some. It's defaulted to Phoenix. Hmm. Interesting. How do I move about the country? I don't know, but you have to continue recording the show. So you're going to put that down. Oh, right. The show. Okay. Objectiveunclear.com forward slash heirloom. Check it out. Yes. Oh, they continue the note. Sorry, you didn't read the rest. Right. Oh, I hope some find this interesting as I did. I found it interesting, Charlie, but I'm still finding it interesting. Currently, it became. I realize I've made a mistake. It became an instant rabbit hole into which I placed my time and wondered where it went. I did that just now. How long was I going? Five minutes? That's very cool. Thank you for sitting that. I really encourage you, if you have any sort of interest in looking at that kind of thing, to go look at it. Very good. Number two from Supercaster Charlie Whiskey, the FBO guy. There was a little bit of confusion about people that share the same first name, and that was my fault. I know who this is, though. Just a quick question from the FBO guy at the base of the tower. With the impending winter storm just days away, it seems likely that there will be no traffic flying into the mythical triad. If there is no traffic inbound or outbound in a massive snowstorm, will ground tower and tracons still be staffed as usual, reduced, or ATC zero? The FBO will still be operational for deicing of general aviation aircraft that are crazy enough to fly into the mess. Just wasn't sure if ATC reduces staffing in such scenarios. Safe travels and clear skies after this weekend. FBO guide, Charlie Whiskey. I cannot answer this question accurately because I wasn't in the facility recently. What happened to staffing? Do people not show up? Because it would be a legitimate concern of getting to work. Yeah, absolutely. No, I don't think we explicitly reduce staffing. It just reduces itself by people that can't get to work or can't get to work safely, especially guys that live farther away. The roads really were pretty bad for several days. That being said, there was no traffic. There really was very, very little traffic. The airport keeps a runway open, but there was just really no one flying. It didn't have to be fully staffed. I think they kept the operation combined in the tower a lot more than normal. Like a midnight configuration. So, last people needed one room staffing. You could see everything that's going on and a little radar traffic that you do have. You can work it on the Game Boy scope. Yep. Did they run it like radar was over at local all day just like a mid? Sometimes. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. But we typically had enough people to split it off and have the radar open downstairs. I'm going to speak in general terms. The FAA is not in the business of shutting down. They like to have options for planes. So, they won't come out and just say, all right, everybody at these 50 airports, don't go to work. They won't do that because when the weather breaks and the runway becomes available and things are more conducive to flying, they want you in position to work. And that's how it should be. You should be in position to keep a facility open. Yeah. Is that fair? I think so. You know, some of the non-towered airports probably were closed for weeks. They weren't open. Nobody was going out and plowing these runways, were they? No. No. We're going to talk about cigarette later. It's either in this show or the second one of the doubleheader. They did close for quite a while. We'll talk about that. Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Charlie Whiskey. All right, moving on. Fancy jamming. Sick. I'm sick. I'm sick. That's why I'm getting sick. All right, this week's show topic is navigating the IFR frequency line, part three. It's a follow-up that's too rich in context and too important to skip, so we're making it part three. And if you have a problem with that, I kindly ask you to get over it. Yeah, go find one of the other air traffic control podcasts out there. All right, from Supercaster Papa November, hello, AG and RH. Thank you for discussing my feedback on 422 and 423. That's parts one and part two of this. It was great to hear your thoughts. At the end of OB-423, you made the potentially tactical error of broadcasting the fact that your inbox was under control. So please send more feedback as you scroll down and down and down. Please remember, you asked for this. I should have had you read that. What sounded better coming from you? Why don't you start us off? I divide this up. There are some new stuff we're going to tackle on this towards the lower half of this feedback, which is all very good. I didn't want to take anything out of it. And if you see an opportunity to inject some current commentary, go ahead. Okay. All right. All right. This is, let's see, pro training Bravo, a pro training Bravo, right? Something I failed to highlight in my original feedback is that my experiences with the coffee Bravo controllers have been excellent. They have shown me nothing but patience and professionalism, even when my readbacks were slow or when I have to ask them to repeat or confirm some or all of a clearance. This has been true, even when the frequency is congested with a thick soup of airliners, corporate jets, smaller, itinerant GA, training flights, skydiving ops, and VFR flight following. Your discussions on the show made me realize how fortunate I am to be learning in this pro training corner of the NAS. And I like to say a public thank you to anyone from the coffee Bravo track on who may be listening and to controllers everywhere who put in the extra effort to enable excellent training flights throughout the NAS. You are helping build better pilots, many of whom will go on to train the next generation of pilots and then may join the airlines and be responsible for the safety of our loved ones in the air. Thank you. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Controllers should be hearing that, hear that and understand how important it is to provide this training service to these people. They could be flying your loved ones around in the future. Do your part. That's all. That's all. I will echo those thank yous to the controllers at these busy airports that still take the time to give attention to what some GA pilots think they're less than in terms of the big scheme of things, but you're really not. You're part of the system and you're just as entitled to the services. So thank you. Yeah, it's sort of ridiculous to think that oh, only jets, turboprops and airlines are entitled to the full complement of services. Well, how did all of those pilots get there? Tell had to go through training. Mm-hmm. The reason that this is special is because there are Bravo air spaces that are not like this. They are the opposite of this. There are even Charlie air spaces, some very close to us. Mm-hmm. Some might be us that do not provide a service like this with less traffic. This is why the Seahawks won the Super Bowl. It's because of attitudes like this in the Northwest. It really is. All right, section two clearance limits. There was some discussion in OB-422 about potentially exceeding a clearance limit when using the file to the first airport only technique. We both had issue with that in terms of our worries. We were a little bit worried about that. Here we go. So far, that has not happened unless I misunderstand the rules. The controller asks how will their approach terminate? And we say we intend to go missed. Then they ship us over to CTAF or tower with a friendly talk to you on the missed. We complete the low approach or touch and go start to fly the published missed, call them back and they say say next approach request. We tell them where we'd like to go next and we hear the magic words cleared to words at that time. For those of you who are not familiar with that, cleared to our magical and regulatory words associated with an IFR flight plan and they are required and they're needed later on. The rabbit hole of lost comms, where can we go? I have always assumed that when you're cleared for an approach, that includes the missed approach procedure and therefore we have not exceeded our clearance limit as long as we remain on the published missed. So far, I've never had a controller ask us to fly the published missed. We've said that before on the show, if not 100 times. Published missed is very unlikely, especially at a towered airport. But I will occasionally request to do so either to practice a hold or because I need a moment to put out a helmet fire or to brief and configure for the next approach. That internet search led me down a 7110 wormhole, except in the case of a VFR aircraft practicing an instrument approach and approach clearance automatically authorizes the aircraft to execute the missed approach procedure depicted for the instrument approach procedure being flown. Okay, so that's key distinction there, except for a VFR practice approach. This confirms my presumption that when flying an IFR flight plan, my approach clearance includes the missed. So I have not exceeded my clearance limit as long as I remain on the missed approach. Yes, we're going to get into that nuance a little bit. Yeah. Okay. Likely if you're getting misses in here, and they know you're going missed, they're probably giving you alternate instructions or coordinating with the tower that you're going to to issue a heading in an altitude because most published missed approaches, I'm just going to get mad at me for saying this, most published missed approaches are terrible for air traffic. Yeah, but they don't they don't take into account local procedures, normal traffic flow, none of that. The except in the case of VFR aircraft practicing an instrument approach wording seems relevant to the discussion on the OB 423. It makes it clear that when a controller clears a VFR aircraft, for practice instrument approach, they do not have to protect for the missed. That has always been the case. Or a controller shouldn't feel like they're having to do that. I believe you mentioned that uncertainty on this point is one of the issues some controllers have with VFR practice approaches, but it would seem the 7110 does have an answer for this. I hope we said that. So we emphasized some wording in the letters that we did read that the approach clearance was the start of your IFR separation, and the end of it was the missed approach point. That was the case with our old letter that expired, right? Or did it not work it that way? I don't remember it saying the missed approach point. I don't remember that language being included. It just said we will provide IFR separation services to these airports, which let us to always believe if it's IFR separation, that includes the missed approach. Hence the culture of blocking at boundary airports for those approaches. No, I don't think you're wrong. I think the, now I'm trying to historically remember, when they changed the 7110, they do a very bad job of telling us what used to be in that place of the magic black change bars. I have a conflicting memory that the 7110, not the LLA that we had, had always differentiated the clearance stopped, the IFR separation stopped at the missed approach point. I thought that was always the case. Maybe I'm wrong. Okay. All right, they continue. The wording from the 71 is consistent with the Crawford Bravo's letter to Airman, which says, IFR separation, when available, will commence at the point where the approach clearance becomes effective and terminates at the missed approach point. The words in the LTA make it clear to pilots what the 7110 already says the controllers will do. On the next episode, we're going to get into some wording of some of these letters and a lot of it is borrowed from the 7110. Yeah. So you could make an argument, I think, I don't know, just tell me if I'm crazy here, that telling a VFR aircraft practice approach approved no separation surfaces provided could be this VFR aircraft practicing an instrument approach category. Right. So this is not an aircraft I said cleared, high less six, to Co-Factory two. I just said practice approach approved, no separation services provided. All right. And that for that aircraft, I'm not protecting for the missed. But if I'm providing IFR separation, see how we're getting into this weird place of, okay, if this was an IFR aircraft, I am definitely protecting for the missed. I see your point. So what is it? Where, you know, if I have a letter saying I'm providing IFR separation, that to me is why Coffee Bravo specifically defined where this terminates. And 7110 does too, for VFR practice approaches. It defines where it term, where the missed approach point is where it terminates. And that's what the 7110 says. I believe so. Okay. The wording in that LTA is not accidental. It's pulled from that. Okay. You want the next part? Yeah. The full stops? See, okay. All right. The full stops. As you noted in OB 423, there are a couple of airports mentioned in the Coffee Bravo's practice approach LTA, which are very close to the main Bravo Airport. And the letter to Airman says, practice approaches at these airports are only authorized when terminating in a full stop. Despite my best intentions to terminate my practice approach with a full stop, there's always the chance I'm going to blow the approach and be unable to land it on the first attempt. Yes. For a VFR aircraft, this doesn't seem like a problem. You're in VMC and you're obligated to maintain VFR during the whole approach. A VFR practice approach will obviously never be approved in the field. If the field you're going to is below VFR minimums. When you reach the missed approach point, you're just a plain old VFR aircraft. Again, if you blow the approach, you go around, enter the pattern and land VFR. You remain under the tower's control and the Treycon doesn't have to deal with you until sometime after your full stop. Taxi back. Okay. The situation is a bit more complicated for an aircraft on an IFR flight plan. However, if the field is VFR, it seems the appropriate thing to do if you blow the approach is to initiate the go around, cancel IFR with the tower to make yourself a VFR aircraft, enter the pattern and land VFR, just like the VFR practice approach would. I agree with that. It seems like the thing you would do. Not go blasting off into a departure corridor or into an arrival corridor for an adjacent airport. You could see how, you could see how if the ceiling is low and we're actually like low IFR, how this can really slow down traffic at adjacent airports. I got a bunch of arrivals coming in to Coffee Bravo and if you go missed, which is highly likely in this weather, this is bad. You're going into a bad place. You are either going to be issued alternate missed instructions or if you're really Nordo and you do the publish missed, they're going to have to stop arrivals or start moving people away. I don't know the setup exactly here, but you get my point. Okay, so, but as far as it being VMC and an IFR aircraft doing a practice approach, botches the thing and has to go around. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Just stay, cancel and stay VFR. That's an easy way to solve that, correct. Yeah. I'm going to read from the 7110. I found the blurb. Okay, good. In the length that they set, it's deep into the, into that. So let me get the section number and then I'll go back down 48-1 approach clearances. It's deep. It's way down a few pages. And it says, hold on, bear with me, control responsibility for IFR separation to VFR aircraft begins at the point where the approach clearance becomes effective and ends when the aircraft reaches the missed approach point. Control or responsibility for IFR separation begins when the approach clearance happens and ends at the missed approach point, which begs the question on why we're ever blocking unless it was, you know, the final approach course was adjacent to somebody's boundary. Because we, according to this, their IFR separation was done when they went on the missed. Now we could give them alternate missed instructions. We could tell them to fly heading. We can tell them to report the missed and then, you know, right or identify them, give them vectors. But according to the 7110, we were never required to give IFR separation. I don't know how long that word's been in there, but my memory serves me kind of conveniently right now to remember it always being there. You think that was always in there? I do. Huh. I do. I don't. It does. Yeah, okay. I mean, it's like my whole world is just crumbling down right now. I don't, if that's true, why? I don't understand what we were doing before. We could have been issuing them an alternate missed and then continuing that protection along those lines the whole time, you know, especially if we wanted to do subsequent approaches, at that airport or another one. Like, okay, let's just protect all the way down. I think most of our, again, my memory is a little bit shady on this. I remember blocking far more for IFR attendant airplanes at those airports, Southwest Rates track, Coat Factory, Mountain, Race Track up to the North. Those were adjacent and we would always block for IFRs going in there until they canceled. Yeah. Are you telling me that I would have always blocked for a flight school VFR clear in a million day? People did it. Huh. On VFR days? Yeah. Really? Yeah. Okay. Can I continue while you contemplate your life decisions? Yeah, go ahead. All right. I think some of this is new and I'm going to read some of it fast and I want to kind of wrap it up as simply as possible for this section. I think you got into the weeds a little bit too much. Popping November. The situation gets more complicated if the field is IFR. Assume you're shooting in ILS. The ILS minimums are around 300 feet, but the plate also has circling minimums, which are around 750 feet, a jail and a mile visibility. The field could be 900 feet overcast or have a two mile visibility, which would make it IFR, but still have the above circling minimums. In this situation, if you blow the ILS approach, it seems likely it seems like you could remain IFR and circle to land, which is basically just flying the pattern a bit lower than usual. If there's no one coming in behind you, then you have time to circle and land and try again. But these airports are so busy, so it's unlikely to be the case. What options does the tower have here? Can they leave an IFR, let you circle and apply visual separation with incoming IFR aircraft? Being asked to do a 360 turn for spacing on the down and a VFR conditions is no problem, but if I'm still IFR and performing a circle maneuver and we're below VFR minimums, I'm flying pretty low and have to stay pretty close to the runway. We're getting into the weeds. You're talking about the 1.3 nautical miles for category A's. Let me just say blanket statement this. Tell me if this is crazy. If the weather is questionable and bordering on IFR, I don't care if you call it a practice approach. You're still IFR and you fly the airplane like you're IFR. You're going to do IFR publish misses or follow the tower's instructions in this example or follow the radar instructions that you were given before you got shipped to the tower in the event of a missed approach, fly heading, blah, blah, blah, maintain this altitude. They coordinate that with the tower. Even if you said I'm doing a practice approach, I have an instructor with me or doing practice approaches. If the weather's IFR, nobody cares about the practice portion of it. You're just being treated like an IFR. Is that fair? You are IFR. Yeah. Just keep that in mind. Some of this gets a little bit wrapped around the axle, but... I'm going to tell you that I believe controllers are going to be really hesitant to have you circling around and trying to do visual with an arrival or give you a 360. That is very unlikely. I think I saw... They even mentioned that as an option. Like, hey, can you just do a circle to land? Like, no. You're going around. If you say you're going missed, they're saying, Roger, climb and maintain fly heading at a controlled place. Yeah. They're treating you like IFR. We're not doing this. Oh, well, now if I turn you into VFR, I can watch you do this tight spinnings. Yeah, no, that's not a good... I don't like that. If I cancel, I'm skipping some of this. If I cancel IFR and request special VFR, does that give the tower any additional flexibility? Don't do that. Just be IFR on this. You did an approach that didn't work out. Visibility was questionable or something happened and you actually have to go missed. It doesn't matter if you're on a practice approach. Go missed. Yeah. If there's an aircraft behind you and we're talking about a Delta, special VFR is going to do the opposite of what you... All right. You just made things infinitely more difficult for the controller. All these options seem pretty awkward and sketchy and it would require a lot of communication with the tower to formulate a plan. The moment you realize you have to go around, seems like a bad time to start the conversation, but you're also not going to start that conversation in advance since your intent is for a successful approach to a full stop landing. As is every IFR approach, listen. Go missed. Yeah. I think if you're in this weird place that a practice IFR approach on an IFR day that you think could result in a missed or go around, I would start discussing that with the tower early. Hey, and if pilots have done this with us all the time, hey, in the event of a missed, where can we expect to go? So we can start programming and get ahead of this thing. And I just, I tell them you're going to get 3000 and runway heading, at least temporarily. Get you going in the right direction. Yes. I think that's totally fine. There isn't a too soon to start talking about this. I mean, you know, before you get, get, been given an approach clearance from radar, don't start talking, well, what are we going to do in the event of a missed? No, but when you get to the tower, right, that's a good time. What can we plan on if we go missed? And you kind of alluded to this in the next couple of sentences. Just flying the public Smith seems preferable for everyone here. I think that's an assumption that we can, we have talked about many times in the past. I'll mention it one more time. At a towered airport, a Charlie or Bravo in the United States is extremely unlikely that you will fly the public Smith. When you do initiate a missed approach, fly the plane first, key up or gone missed. I can almost promise you that the next words out of the controller's mouth will be heading and an altitude. Yes. They will not say fly the public Smith. Yeah, that's rare. In the United States, the European controllers, that's not the case. You are getting the published missed. Okay. You don't even ask. You're just doing it. Okay. Nice. So I'm putting that little asterisk on there. All right, let me continue this. Not to mention that the field is low, I far close to ILS minimums and you blow the approach, you're out of options. You have to go missed despite your best intentions, not to and the tower is going to have to hand you back to the Treycon. All right, so some of those airports said that you should be full stop. If you're doing these practice approaches, we're kind of in a very rare scenario you're describing low IFR day or close to minimums day practice approaches aren't as prevalent. Itinerant arrivals are where you're filing multiple flight pants because you can get a lot out of that. Yes. We're going to do a full stop. We're going to do the ILS into Co-Factory Airport. And we have another flight plan on file, but we're going to do this like an actual flight. And it's 300 foot ceilings. We're going to break out. My students going to see the benefit of this instrument rating that they were paying so much money for. And we're not going to worry about going miss. We're going to do this. We're going to do itinerant traffic. So I don't know. I feel like it's rare on low IFR days where the possibility of going miss because of the approach minimums can't be met for practice approaches is extremely rare. Would you agree with that? Yes. And I think it should be. I agree. Yeah. So what we're saying before everybody gets upset because we've encouraged people to go out and die MC. Yeah. The thousand to 3000 foot AGL clouds that you could be in safely and not in nice conditions is different than 200 to 300 foot ceilings, questionable viz, and a anxious instructor to show you what real IFR is like. There is a big difference. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we would encourage you to get an actual IMC, but even as an airline pilot, it is extremely rare to be landing close to minimums. That might happen once every month. Right. Yeah. It depends on the airport you go to. If you're based in a place that's always crappy weather, maybe, but it's not common to go to minimums and be thinking you're going to go miss IFR. That's not a thing. It's you're talking a few days of the year where visibility is that bad or clouds that low. So all right, they continue. Then you get your last little part down here. My reading of the spirit of the letter, the real IFR approaches on real IFR flight plans to fields that are currently in real IFR conditions is simply, hey, going missed shouldn't be plan A, but of course if it happens, we've got your back and you're not going to get a phone number to call for that. Totally agree. Not going to happen. That is not going to happen. Okay. So let me back up. I think this is what we're trying to distinguish here. And the letter say the intent is your full stop and this magical day where you're like, man, we're going to shoot an ILS approach. Let's go do some approaches. But if we go miss, we're not, we're violating the letter because it says we have to be full stop. You're IFR. You can do what you want. You intended to perform a full stop. Exactly. Now, if you checked in with approach and said, hey, our plan is to get to about 400 feet and go missed. Now you're not meeting the intent of the letter. Right. Now they would say, no, no, no, no, no, no. Right. No, no, no, we're not doing that. Then I'm going to suggest a couple other options for you to go to. It won't be this one because we're making a place for you to be and it's not going to be for funsies. This is for real time. Yeah. Yeah. And don't try anything sneaky like, hey, it certainly isn't our intent to go missed at like 400 feet. Right. Yeah. Right. And the last five itinerant arrivals have gotten down no problem and all of a sudden you come along. Yeah. Yeah, we'd hate to not break out and have to go around. Yeah. My intent, they continue to perform a full stop landing would be amply supported by the fact that I've filed two flight plans for the training mission, one for every one for the way there and a separate one for the way back. For all practical purposes, I look like a very short itinerant flight. The only thing that separates me from a real itinerant flight is the fact that I happen to be in an aircraft with an instructor at the time. Yeah, just don't get too wrapped up around all this. If you're going to try and you're trying to defend something that you don't really need to defend. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You said it perfectly. Yeah, there isn't some restriction on, hey, we, it's too low for you. The ceilings are too low for you to come out and do practice approaches. That isn't a thing. So if you intend to do a full stop, it didn't work out. The ceiling was lower. You botched the thing. Whatever happens, it's fine. There's no need to defend it. Yeah. And a controller on frequency who's maybe worked with a couple itinerant already or maybe one of them went missed, like it's notable. Like everybody in the room will know, hey, they're going missed at this airport. That's an anomaly. That's not common. Right. So if you come along after that and you're like, hey, I want to do a practice approach. They're going to say, okay, this might not be the best idea because my last arrival went missed at about 100 feet or 200 feet, whatever. And then you could change your plan, go somewhere else. Yeah. Is that fair? Yeah. All right, you get the last part. All right. Check in protocol. Later in OB 422, you discussed another listener's feedback regarding checking in with a heading. I have been taught to check in with whatever my current instructions are. If the last thing I was told was direct to a fix, maintain 6000, I'd check in with coffee approach November 123, we're direct to that fix at 6000. If I've been vectored, I'd check in with something like coffee approach November 123 heading 0406,000. If I'm still in a climb, this might sound more like heading 0404,200 climbing 6000. Totally agree with all that. If I've been told to resume own navigation, which hopefully means I'm about where my flight plan says I should be, then I'll check in with the altitude only such as coffee approach November 123,6000. When I get shipped to the tower on an approach, I'll check in with something like tower ILS 16 right. This makes sure I'm talking to who I think I'm talking to, and then, and they know who I am, and what I think I'm supposed to be doing. That way, if the new controller is not the person I'm supposed to be talking to, or if I'm not doing what they're expecting, we can fix it right away. I totally agree with all of that. I wish more people would be a little more explicit about that. Especially at places with parallel runways, where they just check in. Yesterday, somebody did that. They checked in. They said, we're 10 North. I said, okay, 23 right, clear to land. They said clear to land. I said, no, no, no, no, no. I have other aircraft going to 23 left for which you are a tie. So no, no, no, no, no. You say where you're going, who you are, where you are, and what you're going to do. It establishes that you're both on the same sheet of music. Yes. Stop being cool guy brevity on the frequency. Thank you. Oh, this is my, I was waiting for you to start reading. Where was I? From the controller side, would you find these check ins helpful? Yes. I just explained that. Would you suggest anything different? No. I would not. As far as a general check in, no. There's always some circumstance where you maybe need to convey some other message, but for just generally checking in on a new frequency, yes, this is good. Let me put emphasis somewhere here. If you emphasize, if you're IFR and you're not going to a fix on your file flight plan, or you're not on an airway, or you're not doing something, you're on a heading, which happens a lot. Yes. Traffic. We're talking to you. You should emphasize the heading. If their response isn't something like you checked in on one of your examples, heading 040, 4200, climb in 6000. The altitude parts is required to a new facility. They need to verify that they're reading the correct altitude for you. So that part is an optional, but you checking in on the heading should have been coordinated. If it's not part of a letter of agreement between the two facilities, probably was not. Probably not, no. Because controllers get lazy sometimes, just saying. Or they know that the other person's not picking up. So you know what? I'm going to check in with your heading. Yeah, that might be an instruction you're given. That happens in Europe a lot. Yeah. And I really don't understand why it's the same places all the time. You would think their letter said that, but anyway, I digress. If you are later not told to go direct to a fix or to resume your flight plan somehow, fly this heading, join this airway, although rare, that could happen. Then you need to ask, hey, do you want us direct to this next fix? Because they missed the part where you were on a heading. Right. You're not flying heading to heading throughout the NASA. That shouldn't be a thing. We're not in MD80s with VOR to VOR navigation. Yeah, it's slant alpha. Yeah, slant alpha. That was for you, Captain Jeff. Yeah. Without the fancy GPS. Anyway, I want to make sure we didn't breeze over that. Your heading is an important IFR. It's an important thing. If you're coming off a tower, turn left heading one under zero. That's part of an L-Away. That's how they expect you. We're talking in-route, new facility. Make sure you know that you're not on your flight plan. If you're on a heading, emphasize that. Right. Yeah, if you're doing what your flight plan says, even if you were taking off your route, this happens all the time. Let's get all tied up about this purple line on their screen. We're off the purple line. Then the controller says, clear direct to the next fix in your flight plan. I do not care that you are off your purple line. Your original A to B line or whatever it was, it does not matter to me. If you are direct to the next fix in your flight plan, that is all that I care about. Additionally, when, just as an aside, when you are taken off your route and cleared direct to the next fix, let's say you're vectored for traffic or vectored for weather. I say clear direct. It doesn't mean fly back to your course line. It just means from where you are, go direct. I get why controllers, the old guys, used to say present position direct. I'm like, why are you saying that? What else could it possibly be? He goes, and they would say, you watch. You watch. They'll turn 30 degrees off and go back to their course line. That's because when they became controllers shortly after the Wright brothers retired, it was far more common to be on Victor Airways. On a Victor Airway. There was no direct to a fix. It's more than 50 miles away. That wasn't a thing. So you had to fly heading 360 join Victor X. That's how they got used to it. When GPS became a thing, they were conditioned to, I have to think differently from this. I want you to turn direct. That was new for them. But they kept teaching us that. By then it was kind of normal. Ish. Yeah. And now I haven't seen a slant alpha plane or slant uniform, also known as slant unable, slant worthless, slant whiskey was, you know, worthless. Yeah. It's all slant golf and Lima and. Right. Which means they have R and F GPS. They can go direct to a fix that's 3,000 miles away if you wanted them to. Right. Okay. There's another thing I want to emphasize on this before we get down with this topic. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we supposed to be saying resumo navigation to an IFR airplane? I don't say that. You just clear them to a fix on their flight plan. Right. For like you said, a heading to join a radio or something. Yeah. Resumo navigation to an IFR aircraft that's on a heading is to me, it's far too ambiguous. It's very big. You should be telling them turn left heading when able, clear direct to, you should say turn right direct to. That's how you remove all the chances of a screw up here. Resumo navigation could be construed by that pilot. Hey, do they want us to get back on our purple line? The one that you're making fun of. Exactly. Right. Bad, bad, bad. So when you get that, if you get that from the controller, say, let's just ask, can we go direct to this fix, clear the table? I'm going to make this very obvious. I want to go direct to this fix. Yeah, it might be like a mile or two off of what my purple line is, but this is where I want to go. Please snap a new line. Yes. Direct the direct button to that fix. Execute. Please don't forget to hit execute because I have something that mode. Don't stay in heading mode. Yes. This happens all the time. Are you turning? Oh, yeah. Sorry. We're, we're still in heading mode. I know. I know. Okay. Sorry. Go ahead and finish it up. Yeah. Sorry. We kind of went on a tangent there. Thanks as always for all the effort you put into the show week after week, pop November, PS. I enjoyed both the Chinook and ice cream by the fire bonus audios. If there's anyone out there who's on the fence about upgrading to get access to the bonus audio, I get the bonus audio two thumbs up. Thank you. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. We appreciate it. There's more of bonus audio coming. I will be working on another one soon, probably about flight planning. Maybe it's a week in the life of a combat helicopter pilot. Because you really need about a week to go through the whole cycle of what happens. I like that. Yeah. Very good feedback. Thank you for providing us with, this is record breaking for us, three show topics on really one person's feedback, but it was rich in context. And I think we needed to spend more time than the average feedback. So thank you for that. You know what? Let me say this too. What you saw here today, what live happened in real time was me coming to this realization that I have missed this blurb in the 7110 for a long time, thinking that, you know, so that just shows you. I've almost been doing this for 15 years. There is no end to your learning. It can be very humbling to realize now at this stage in the game, like, oh, wow, I've been wrong about that. And it's always been in the book. If that's true, if it's always been like that, I have no idea how that happened. But certainly, it was put into my head at some point, that that wasn't okay. So, you know, be open to being wrong, I guess. Don't get so set in your ways, because I clearly was wrong about that. So that's all. I'm glad we're all on the same page. Good. Excellent. All right. Thank you for having November. Moving on. Moving on. Feedback time. Feedback. All right. Hugging number one. How about that? Very good. This is an editorial summary. I took some liberties here. So, it's a good story, though, from Supercaster Sierra, Sierra Delta. I finally got my blue OB shirt. It felt like the toy I set cereal box tops away for as a kid. Do you remember that? Oh, yeah. I wore it out running errands and stopped at a CVS for toothpaste. I mean, it's a great place to wear your OB shirts. The cashier, a woman about my age, asked about the shirt. I told her it was a posing basis. Two pilots who also, or also air traffic controllers. Funny and incredibly informative. Then I mentioned, I'm a pilot. Of course. Every pilot does that. Did I tell you I'm a pilot? Yeah. Yeah, you did. Yes. That got her attention. She said she loves planes, especially the feeling of taking off. But had only ever been on big jets, I told her my husband and I fly a bonanza, a small single engineer plane and asked if she had ever been in a small plane. She had not. So, I suggested a call to a local flight school and ask for an intro flight. You go up with an instructor, you get to feel the controls. Even if you only do it once, you'll love it. You're never too old. She looked at me and said, you've changed my life. She really said that. But honestly, it was the OB T-shirt that changed her life. Oh, Sierra Sera Delta. See, you never know what kind of conversations you're going to get into. Yeah, and how you just turned the course of someone's life. Like, huh, maybe I could do that. That's how I found out about air traffic. I was flying with a captain, it wasn't a t-shirt. Oh, yeah. He said, hey, have you thought about going into air traffic? This was years ago, obviously. Mm-hmm. No, that's only for military. You can't do that. He says, no, no, no. They take people from like normal people. I said, no, they don't. I thought they do. That changed my life. Yeah. If you're out there and you're wondering, you may not want to take flight lessons. Maybe it turns into that, but you want to go fly a plane? Go to the local airport, the one that makes all the fun noises, the planes you look at all the time. Find out where they're landing and ask where the flight school is and say, I want to do a discovery flight or an intro flight. Those terms will ring a bell with somebody. Go up. It won't be terribly expensive. No. No. No. And it'll be a great way to do something maybe you thought you would never do. Everybody can do that. Right. You don't need a medical, you don't need any special permission. And you can tell your friends you flew a plane. Exactly. Yeah. Did you take off? No. Did you land? No. They wouldn't let me do that part. But we were moving when I was touching the controls. I love that. Okay. Cool. Thanks for the feedback. That's great. Yeah. You get number two. All right. Number two, Supercaster Whiskey Mike. Morning, fellas. I like many, I like many probably got a notification from the FAST team this morning that they were going to have a meeting at Cigarette to discuss the tower closure and how things will work. I was curious if it might be worthy of time on the show to talk about how that will work and how it changes things for a relatively busy D to close to a C. That close to a C. Oh, that close to a C. I'll tell you this without the remote frequency functioning like it is now. What? Yeah. Out of service. I thought about this this morning when I, I'm like, you know what? If the frequency is working, it's going to be quite annoying all day long. They're going to be calling for releases. Yeah. Not only that, but we'd be listening to all the pattern traffic constantly. Oh, yeah. No, that's not good. See, and so, but it's not working right now. Okay. Why? Great question. A just question. But no, I don't know. They just haven't been able to fix it. Okay. Which is a, it is annoying on the mid because it's basically Cigarette. Winston closes at 930. And we monitor the frequency typically just for IFR releases and cancellations. We also get to hear, you know, landmark vehicle 13 is crossing 33 all night long. Crew van crossing 33, you know, now during the day at night, there's really no pattern traffic. So you don't have to listen to that. But during the day, I have to listen to this frequency for IFR releases, right? And for cancellations, which means I have to sit there and listen to CTAP coming out of the speaker. Oh no. All day long. And now I don't know if they've come to an agreement. I haven't been briefed on how this is going to go down because they've kind of pushed it back a little bit. So wait, this is a planned, we're talking about not a weather closing. This is a planned long term closing. Yes. Why? Because they're doing construction on the building, I guess. All right. On the actual, like tower. Okay. I believe. Now we have a person at work who is charged with conducting this briefing. And I'm assuming giving us a briefing on what the procedure is going to be. If the CTAP is out, or if it's not out, you know, do I have to sit there and listen to this? That's going to be super annoying. That should not be a thing. Hey, we're going to turn this into a normal non-towered airport. Call us on flight service or a phone number. Yeah. Period. Not listening to that thing all day. Yeah. Which as busy as they are for IFR traffic is going to be kind of annoying. It's going to be a thing. A co-factory is just as busy, IFR. But the customers there typically are happy to pick it up airborne. Yeah. If they can, if they're not, we have a remote that is independent of the CTAP. So I don't have to listen to CTAP. It's way better. This is not that. This is a different thing. This is a thing that may not typically happen anywhere. I don't know. I don't know what is going to be the kind of a, it's kind of weird. Good luck with that. Yeah. Thanks. Keep us posted. Maybe it'll make more sense after it's actually happening. Maybe. Or they task somebody who's in the middle with monitoring that frequency the whole time, which I can't imagine that either. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I'm going to hold this phone in my ear for two hours. Or the soup has to be on it back, you know, at the desk plugged in with their headset on. No, no, no. That can't happen. No. Publish a number on the ATIS. Call this number for your, for your clearance. For the controllers listening, this is an anomaly in the NAS. We listen to CTAP at triad because that tower is not 24 hours and it turns into a clearance delivery frequency. And then, you know, from 10 o'clock at night until five in the morning, who cares? No one's there. But at six in the morning, when those jets start leaving and they start leaving then. Yeah. If you had to listen to all of them, it might as well build up a new scope there. That's, there's a reason to have a tower. Yeah, sometimes there's a stack of arrivals. Yeah. Over there. Yeah. Or departures, I mean. Oh my gosh, you're going to do one in one out there? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, it's, that's going to be terrible. It is. I get the last one. Yeah. From Supercaster Mike Delta, hey, HRH, I wanted to drop a quick note to tell you how much I love the podcast and how it has helped me become a safer pilot and user of the NAS. I have such a huge appreciation of the service that you will provide, that you all provide. And it's very important to me as a professional as possible in my interactions and communications with ATC. Well, thank you. I thought I'd share a couple of milestones that I've had in my aviation career in the past few months. Back in August, I bought my first airplane, SR-22, a Cirrus SR-22. Congrats. Cool. I have been very impressed with Cirrus as a company and the training they provide, both recurrent training and the free embark transition training to new Cirrus buyers of both new and pre-owned airplanes. I don't know if other manufacturers do this and we're not sponsored by Cirrus, but I love that product. I've said that before. They do training and we know an instructor who provides this embark transition training, you go buy this Cirrus, which at first look might seem like a normal general aviation airplane. Oh, what's the big deal? I'll just get in, turn it on and we, I bought it. I can do what I want. You're getting into a very advanced airplane. Yes. So what the company does is hook you up with an expert on that aircraft and you want to maybe three or four days of flying around and getting familiar with this airplane. They want to protect the safety of their brand. It's working too. It is a great point. Yeah. It is working. It's working. Since I got the airplane, I've been working on my instrument rating. As you both know, it's a ton of work, but oh, so rewarding. I used an accelerated IFR program in Charleston to finish up and I just passed my check ride this week. Congratulations. Cool. Thanks again for all you do for the aviation community that we all love so much. Best regards, Emperor, Captain, Mike Delta. You didn't say it in this feedback and I hope you did. I hope you got your training. The IFR advanced or the accelerated rating in that plane. That might be a little you own it. So maybe one of the bigger costs is taken care of. I'm trying to word this the right way. Learning IFR in a Skyhawk, for example, and many of them are still six packs, non-glass, and then transitioning to IFR in this glass cockpit airplane, it's just a big difference. Yes. Very big difference in the automation levels and the functionality of the screens and how much information is available to you. I hope you got your training on that. If you didn't spend some time with an instructor, again, with your instrument rating and go do all the things, the practice approaches, a flight review type of event, with somebody in your airplane with your screens so that you're an expert in your craft, your field, your plane makes a big difference. Right. Is that fair? Yep. You said something. Why do you think this is, you're very emphatic. It's working. We just see it as just and when I went to that Cirrus event down south of here, it's been a few years ago now, but it just became very apparent that this group of owners of airplane owners and operators is very involved and very dedicated to learning, to improving, to growing, and it shows on frequency. It shows on frequency. And maybe this, you know, I mean, they have a good chunk of the market, of this market, right? And so maybe that's, there's some of that happening in that, that's just more of the exposure that, but I just find frequently, and I think other controllers would echo this, that that general group of owners, it's not everyone. You get, you know, the random ones, but they're in tune, they're paying attention, they have awareness. I don't know, I just, I just have good things to say about it. I love that the company does that. I do too. And again, we're not sponsored by them or anything. We just, I just like what they're doing. Excellent. Yeah. All right, we do our best to respond to support feedback and let you know when you'll be on an upcoming show. A.G., anything before the intermission, before episode two today? I do not. Closing out, episode 425 of Opposing Bases air traffic talk, Romeo Hotel. And Alpha Golf. Goodbye, everyone. Drop. Opposing Bases is a listener supported, ad free weekly podcast. The views expressed on the show do not reflect the opinions or official positions of the FAA or Penguin Airlines. Episodes are for entertainment purposes only and are not intended to replace flight instruction. To get on time access, bonus content, and full archive access, join the crew at opposingbases.supercast.com. Yeah. Drop.