Just My Imagination - Howland Township, Ohio

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This week in Howlin Township, Ohio, a popular local businessman is brutally murdered in his own home, leading detectives to his estranged wife whom he still lives with, several of her boyfriends and a treasure trove of letters. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrogallow. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another crazy, wild, insane, just nutty edition of Small Town Murder, as always. And of course, bloody, you can add to that, too. Definitely crazy stuff today, as usual. We will get to all that and more. Before we do, head over to shut upandgivememurder.com. Get your tickets for live shows. Everybody also merchandise everything there you could possibly want. But tickets for live shows, I believe that Royal Oak is sold out by now. Yeah. So, yeah, the Buffalo Royal Oak, they're sold out. So next ticket's available after the summer in September, September 18th, Milwaukee, September 19th, Minneapolis. Then October 3rd in Dallas, October 16th, San Jose, October 17th, Sacramento. November 13th, Tarry Town, November 14th, Boston. So that is the schedule. Get your tickets right now for those. Shut upandgivememurder.com. Make sure to listen to our other two shows, Crime in Sports, which you do not have to like sports to like. Trust us. You have to like us making fun of a guy who committed criminal acts when they absolutely didn't have to. That's fun. You can do that, but you don't have to like sports and your stupid opinions because who doesn't like to laugh at other people's reviews? That's the funniest thing in the world. So can't wait for that. Then get yourself Patreon. My goodness. Get that Patreon. Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all of the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get every damn thing we put out, including so much. As soon as you subscribe, hundreds of back bonus episodes, almost 400 of them as soon as you subscribe. Then you get new ones every other week, one crime in sports, one small town murder, and you get them all this week, which you're going to get. This is a fun one. For Crime in Sports, we're going to talk about the power team. Do you remember those guys that were like on the Christian channel and they would like rip phone books and like bend things and be like, I love Jesus after they did it. You don't remember those guys? They had like all this crazy power stunts that they would do. Jacked, steroid it up lunatics. Jesus did it. That's what they go, oh, thank you, Jesus. After they would like lift a giant thing, it's the cra- and then afterwards, of course, it all fell apart and there's some scandal involved because obviously. Does it grift? It was a lie? Well, I mean, at the time, who knows, but it turned into something weird. And then for small town murder, it's internet salad time, everybody. Here we go. Everything that's going on in the world today, that doesn't have anything to do with politics because we feel like you probably get enough of that everywhere else in your life. So we'll make fun of everything else. So patreon.com slash crime in sports is how you do that. And like I said, with that, you also get everything we put out crime and sport, small town murder, your stupid opinions, ad free with your patreon as well. All ad free. Can't beat that. And you get a shout out at the end of the show. And I mean, we'll mispronounce your name while wanting so desperately to get it correct. So do that and come hang out with us. patreon.com slash crime in sports. That's a disclaimer time. Yeah. Everybody. It's a comedy show. Surprise. It's a comedy show. We're comedians. We are going to make jokes and people are going to die because it's called small town murder. So it'd be really weird if nothing else. You know, everybody was fine at the end of it. So that's how you do it. And you go, why does that work? How do you make jokes when people are dead? Well, very easily, I think, honestly, you don't just don't be a, don't be a jackass. And it's pretty easy. What we do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victim's family. Why is that, James? Because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. That's all it is. There's plenty of other stuff to make fun of around it. Think about it. Somebody putting together a big murder plot and going, I think I can pull this off. That's pretty funny. We're going to make fun of that, you know? So that said, yes, it's crazy stuff. And yeah, we got to get into this here. So that said, I think it's time, everybody. What do you say here? I think it's time to clear the lungs, arms to the sky, everybody. And let's all shout. Shout out and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah. Let's do it. We are going to Howland Township, Ohio this week. Howland. Howland Township. H-O-W-L-A-N-D. Howland. How did this land happen? Howland Township, Ohio. It's in northern Ohio. About an hour and 15 to Cleveland. About an hour and 25 to Pittsburgh. Fair. I feel like we've passed this driving from Pittsburgh to Cleveland for sure. Probably. One of those places you go through. It's about an hour and 52 Bel Air, Ohio. Our last Ohio episode, episode 658, the dark prince of Belmont County. Remember that? We did that for a virtual live show too. And that was crazy stuff here. That was, wow. Too much. That was a lot. That was a whole lot of craziness there. So there's that. This is in Trumbull County. Sure. T-R-U-M-B-U-L-L County. Area code, not how you expected that one, huh? No. Exactly. So I spelled it because I'm like, it's a weird spelling. Area code 234 and 330 as well here. Now, a little bit of history. This is the only Howland Township in the state. Which in Ohio, there are towns that share the same name. What? They didn't like go through. You figure like early days of the post office, they would have went through and went, okay. This is before zip codes. I think they would have said. Is there two Clevelands? We can't, not two Clevelands, but there's a couple, two of this and two of that. You think somebody would have said, let's purge all of the names that are doubles. And whoever had it first gets to keep it. So it's wild. The town is named for the Howland family who are the original settlers of the township. They were pilgrims that were aboard the Mayflower. So how they are very original, just got here, you know. Yeah. Yeah. The first ones? First ones. Now, Joseph Howland purchased the township from the Connecticut Land Company in 1795. And then the township was organized in 1812. There was a sawmill by 1814, a gristmill by 1815. We're gristin' and sawin'. Now we got wood and grist. Now we're ready to go here. Now we got a town. It began in 1830. Howland Springs began operation as a health spa. Oh. And operated as a health spa until the township, in the township until it burned down in 1882. The spa burned down. I believe the yes, the spring spa thing burned down. Which you'd think, I don't know how you burn down a spring. That would be impossible. Yeah. It's water and rocks. How you burn down a spa? There's water and shit. And you could burn down the shit around it, but put another structure and it's still the springs. I don't get it. So anyway, reviews of this town, let's find out what other people think of this town, because maybe we've passed through it, but if we did, we don't remember. It's possible. What are you gonna do? It has 3.8 stars on niche. So questionable for a Chinese restaurant, but that way. Not good. Not good. So there's 4 stars. Howland Township is a clean, safe, family-friendly community that offers a wide range of restaurants and community functions. Sure. So they got that. That seems like a 5 star. I don't know why you only gave it 4. Wide range, yeah. Not quite wide enough, apparently. 4 stars again. Howland Township is a quiet township with great schools and low crime. Yeah, it's an amazing place to raise kids and grow a family. I'll picture you watering them. Oh, look at little Johnny. He's getting up to my knee now. Yeah, we gotta prune him. He's getting a little too long. They grow faster when you do. Yeah, that's what I mean. Well, they grow wider that way. You get more robust. Sort of bulk up. Yeah. So there's that. It's mostly older people and young parents with school-aged children, which is a very odd mixture. Just like 25-year-olds with little kids and 75-year-olds that are retired there. Real estate's a little on the high side, but so very worth it. Real estate is not on the high side, by the way, as we'll find out. Here's two stars. There's very few career growth opportunities, and the city is, quote, very dangerous. City. The city, which it's not, is very dangerous. We'll talk about how dangerous it is when we get to crime rate. It's insanely low. Like, this person is out of their minds. I don't know. This is the type of person that hears something happen one time, and then they think, dangerous. Can't walk the streets. Here's one star. This is fun. Issues with off-road four-wheelers and ATVs, dirt bikes, backyard, one acre of the yard. One acre of yard. The yard is literally a dirt track. Houses here are very close. The noise is a big issue. Very old, excessively, not even spelled close to what excessively is. Excessively loud. There's no punctuation here, by the way. None. This is one paragraph. This goes on constantly in this township, plus many other zoning issues that are never addressed as this same residence. Others throughout our township also cause issues with off-road. By the way, they've spelled road twice and the same way wrong both times. ROED. Road. ROED. ROED. Twice. That's not even a word. Nope, that is not a mistake, and the E isn't close enough to the A to make a mist type either. That's how they think road is spelled. That's how you think, yup. You should see how excessively is spelled. Yikes. Cause issues with off-road vehicles and other parts of the township and zoning issues that have been violated, but nothing done about them. They was already done before zoning was informed. Now the rest of the...whoa, neighbors. That is some way to...N-I-E-B-H-E-R-S. Neighbors. N-I-E. Nibers have to deal with such a big nuisance, not even close, and you don't even have to ask for neighbors. This person's complaining about one particular neighbor that has a dirt track on their acre that their kids ride dirt bikes on, and they're very upset about it. They do not like it. Not like it at all. People in this town, 18,993. That's kind of like the whole little area here. It's a good size town. 51% women, 49% men. So a few more ladies in that town. Meeting and age, here's about five years over the national average. It's 43.9. So the retirement people are weighing the younger people the other direction. About 49% married, so very close to the average. A lot of...everything here is kind of average. This seems like your average Midwestern American small town. It's got all the single with children, married, all these things are right on the average deal. Race in this town, not quite average. On 91.3% white, 2.5% black, 1.5% Asian, 1% Hispanic, 1.5% Native American, which is high. You see that in New Mexico or Utah, places like that, but I wasn't aware there was a lot of Native Americans in Ohio at this point in time. I'm not, well, no, I don't know. I can't even imagine why. No. Religion in this town, it's 48% religious, 50% is the national average. And it's really a mixed bag. Everything's kind of 10% this, 11% that. Catholic is the number one, but it's like 14% to 13% or something. It's not a big deal. As we know, Catholics are the Baptists of the Midwest. Ohio River Valley. Ohio River Valley. Cost of living here, 100 being regular average here. It's 90. So not bad. Median household income, little above the national average, $73,661. So about five grand over the national average. Very average. Median home cost 181,500 bucks. It's not so bad. There's a one in front of this. And this person said real estate's outrageous. Outrageous. Outrageous. So if we've convinced you, you know what? You'd like to live in a Midwestern, small, boring town. We have for you the Howlin Township, Ohio real estate report. Okay. Your average two bedroom rental here is $790, which is very affordable. 500 less than the national average. Extremely affordable. Yeah. That's like 19 or, you know, 2003 prices. That's not bad. Here is house number one, four bedroom, two bath, 1344 square feet. It's a brick square. It's just like a big brick block. I got four bedrooms out of that. It's impressive. You got to squeeze. I had a 1400 square foot house with four bedrooms and did you? They're pretty small. Yeah. They're kind of down pretty small. 8 by 8, right? Yeah, they're not like one of them was a good, two of them were a good size and two of them were pretty small. Two of them you could have combined and made a third basically. So yeah, this is brick. It doesn't look that great. It looks a little tad bit run down. Not terrific built in 1925. So it's old close to a lot of other houses. 99,900 bucks though. Not bad. It's livable. The inside isn't torn to pieces. It's a livable house with four bedrooms for a hundred grand. 2001 prices. That's not bad. No. Here is a four bedroom two bath, 2052 square feet. It's done a little bit more recently on the inside than the other one, but you got the gray laminate floors and it's, you know, they read in the gray cabinets. They redid everything very neutral to make it sell. Little two story house built in 1918. So an old house again, 129,900 bucks for that. Yeah. Again, pretty cheap. They just had a $5,000 reduction on that one too. And it's on sale. Next up, four bedroom, five bath, T-bowl for each and every beehull right here. That's a lot. 5,086 square feet. They like the number five. It's beautiful. It's a big, like the nice bricks and inside is very well done. It's gorgeous built in 2000. Oh, and new too. Yeah. Half an acre, .53 acres. You know, leafy around. It looks like it's in a nice neighborhood. Very nice. 529,900 bucks for that. And there's a five in the number. Look at that. Instead of a million in the number of 5,000 square feet. Ohio, putting the mid and midwest. Putting the mid priced and midwest. This had a $20,000 price cut recently too. Yeah. Okay. Things to do here. Let's find out what we have to do here. Okay. Number one, the Trumbull County Fair, which is right next door and Warren, you know, 10 minutes away, not even. So looking up this fair and man, it's a lot of, a lot of, a lot of like livestock shit. Yeah. Farming shit. I see a carcass steer way in a car. What? Carcass hog way in. The fuck is that? Carcass is a dead animal, right? Yeah. That's usually a body. That's a, why are we weighing bodies? I don't know. But I don't know if there's a autopsy practice course after that or what. I thought the idea of the fair was show us your prize winning animal that breathes. Yeah. It's at least alive. Yeah. If we put food in front of it, it should react. That's how it gets a ribbon. Then there's the equine station judging. Okay. So there's all of that. Carcass goat way in, carcass lamb way in. I don't know why they're playing your carcass. You want to slaughter your best one and bring it down? I guess I'll eat the lamb. I mean, and the hog and the steer, I suppose, but not the horse. So there's judging of horses. There's a 4-H Royal Court, the 4-H fashion review. Fashion. Fashion review, apparently. The junior fair equine English show. What the fuck is that? I don't know what that is. Going on here. We have the J Bird, who's a band playing. Yeah. Jim Hine is also playing that night. Jim Hine. Jim Hine. There's also a patriotic costume contest. Oh boy. There's that. The Thunder Creek Band will be there. Yeah. Shit, yeah. The Thunder Creek Band. Then there'll be tractor poles. Here we go. Oh boy. Steven Saramuga Acoustic will be there. Oh shit. Playing all the tunes you know you know and love. Everybody loves them. I was real into it a minute ago. It was all motors for it. There's also a cow milking contest that takes place in the milking parlor, which sounds disgusting. They have a bunch of those in Reno and it's nasty. You don't want to go to the milking parlors. Diane and Terry McCabe. You could say happy or super up there somewhere. Something. Diane and Terry McCabe will be playing. Oh yeah. I don't know what they do, but old Diane and Terry will get together. There is a stick horse costume class. Stick horse costume. A junior fair cheese auction. Oh boy. These all sound like mad libs. This is ridiculous. Demolition Derby. There we go. That's fun. Release large animals is one of the scheduled things. Just into the crowd. It's going to open the stag. People run it. No. Trampoline going on everywhere. Oh ladies underfoot. There's release equine and small animals, which that's horses. Yeah. Releasing horses. That's crazy. So yeah, there's all of that. There's going to cut them loose. Cut them loose. Let them go boys. Get them out of here. Then there is also the community park Sunday summer music concert series. This takes place in Howland township. We got, let's see. This is starting in May here, May 31st. The Richie Wilkins Trio will be there. No. Three guys named Richie Wilkins. Awesome. June 7th. Richie Wilkins. We're all Richie Wilkins. You know Richie Wilkins. It's not our guy Richie Wilson. No, no, no. Not the guy who edits this show, Richard Richie Wilson. No, we're talking about Richie Wilkins. Richie Wilkins. This could be one of Richie's alter egos. We don't know. We don't know what he does when he's not editing the show. We know he owns a restaurant and he's pretty busy as a family. But still, you never know. I don't know how to be this shit. June 7th, drums and drums will be there. June 21st, justified. Okay. I thought this was a concert series, meaning there are concerts of... These are technically concerts. No, no, no. Ludacris won't be here, unfortunately, for the people. No national acts? No. Well, maybe. Let me go through one more. July 5th, Erie Height Brass Ensemble. Is that one of your favorites? I know you got a poster of them up in your garage. I think they were touring this year. I thought they were off. Now, this sounds fun. July 19th, the drunken iguanas will be there. Nice. Great. August 9th, speed limit. August 14th, the Howland High School Band will be there. Jimmy, this is all top-notch entertainment. So annoying. August 30th, mystery guests. Oh! I don't know if that's the name of the band or we really don't know whose performance. Or if they just haven't booked them yet. Not sure. TBA. Now, crime rate in this town. That's it? That's it. That's the whole summer series. That's all you get. They're not even every week. There's a couple of weeks off. The mystery is the headliner. That's it. They're closing out the summer, babe. That's how it's happening. It's usually the guy that sells the tickets for Christ's sake. Labor Day the weekend after. That's it. It's all over. Now, crime rate, like I said, very dangerous. Remember, terrifying, according to some reviewer here. Property crime, about one-third of the national average. Two thirds. Under, yeah. Terrifying. Then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime is about one-quarter of the national average. This is like the safest town we've ever heard of. Extremely safe. I looked up their stats. Last year they had zero murders here. They're doing pretty well as far as safety goes. And this person, dangerous, won't even leave the house. Okay. That said, let's talk about some murder, shall we? Here we go. Okay. Let's get into this here. All right. Let's get out in 2001 and talk about some people here. Let's talk about a guy with a very fun name, Robert Fingerhut. Really? Like the magazine? Yep, Fingerhut. That's it. Just like the magazine. Like the catalog. Did you ever have Fingerhut in your house? I've seen it. Not in my house, no, but I've seen it. My parents are in big catalog orders. My mom treated Fingerhut like I treat Facebook marketplace. I just browse. Just browse, yeah, yeah. It showed up to our house all the time. We never bought a single fucking thing from them. I saw it. You'd see it like a dentist's office or something. I never knew what the fuck it was. What do they have? What is that? It's just a catalog of shit for sale. Like a sky mall. Like, yeah. Kind of like a land mall. Yeah, sky mall for the ground. Land magazine mall. Problem is we have stores on the ground. So it's like, but they have like housewares and shit or like clothes or... Yeah, they had all kinds of stuff in there. They had fucking electronics and everything. Sharp image kind of almost. Kind of like the quality of... Brookstone. Say again. Like Brookstone or sharper image or like weird shit. No, no, no, no, no. You know, like an air purifier that makes no noise. Okay, okay, so overall, okay, I get what you're saying. It's like a department store, but it's just a catalog. It's Amazon with a catalog. Yeah, but I don't know a soul that ever bought anything from them. No. I don't know when it... It may still be... This guy may have been a part of it. Maybe. Well, he wasn't, I think we know. No? No, he's... I don't know what finger hut, man. He's part of the Florida finger huts. It's a different branch of the finger hut. Yeah, you know, you're talking about the Newport Beach finger huts. They're a different group. Now, Robert Finger Hut was born in 1945. Yeah, 45. He's got... Grows up as two graduate degrees, by the way. Wow. Has a master's in journalism and a master's in criminal justice studies. Oh. So he'd be a great crime reporter. I mean, that would be Christ. He could break down the court shit for you. Yeah. He'd be a perfect crime recorder, by the way, reporter. By the way, he does not do that at all. He does none of these things. He owns Greyhound bus stations and like coffee shops and shit. Well. Nothing to do with journalism or criminal justice. But he found a place that has the most criminals. Yeah. Imagine going to school for that long to get master's degrees and not using them at all. Just using your finger hut money to buy Greyhounds. Not even like in the... Like, adjacent. Not even in the ballpark. Not even like in an adjacent industry. It just doesn't make any sense at all. So he's got a son named Michael that we'll talk about too, who he has younger here. Two Greyhound terminal, two Greyhound bus terminals later on. One in Warren, Ohio. One in Youngstown, Ohio. We'll figure that out later. That's when they moved to Ohio because right now he's in Florida. He is known as kind of a gatherer of lost puppies. He's kind of that kind of guy. Yeah. Treated people very well. Like, he only hired ex-cons to drive his buses. Yeah. Which says that that's nice. But then you're also putting a group of people in a metal box with a felon for God knows how many hours. And you're giving them control of a $200,000 vehicle that... That's true. That too. That shit may go to Mexico and never come back or somewhere else. Somewhere else or just taken apart and, you know, Cleveland somewhere. Yeah. Taking to Detroit somewhere. You never know. But this is how he hires. Yeah. He could also give destitute prisoners a free Greyhound ticket so they could go visit family too. When people get out of prison, they know they could go to Robert Fingerhut for a free bus ticket to see family. God, it sounds like an alias. That's so crazy. Yeah, Robert Fingerhut. It sounds like a name like Austin Powers would make up. Like, I mean, Robert Fingerhut. Yeah. This is my wife, Oprah. Oprah Fingerhut. It's really what it sounds like. So, his father, Michael said about his father that he really just liked helping people. Yeah. Didn't, wouldn't judge anybody before they fucked him over, basically. That's nice. He said he was probably the least prejudiced person on earth. He just gave everybody, whether you could just get out of prison or you could, you know, come from, you know, the governor's office. He's going to treat you the same way and give you the same amount of respect type of thing. So, let's find out how he got to Ohio. All right. Well, he had been married earlier and divorced and that's where the son Michael came from. But in 1980, he met a new woman, Robert Fingerhut. It's time for the Fingerhut to... Get fingering. Keep on walking. Just moving along with his little fingers here. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a better way to quit a bad habit with Fume. Tryfume.com. T-R-Y-F-U-M.com. Absolutely. You go, what's Fume? Well, it's very simple. Fume is a flavored air device designed to help people quit vaping and smoking by breaking the hand to mouth pattern. It's simple. It's natural. It's pretty genius if I'm being honest here. 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You just scoop and top it off with fresh boxy litter and it's awesome. Really great. And they use it. They hold themselves to a really high standard 100% US sourced clay and thoughtful ingredients with no additives or filters. If you're tired of switching litters, look for the one get 30% off your boxy order at b o x i e cat.com slash small town murder and use the code small town murder. That's boxycat.com slash small town murder and make sure that you use our code small town murder so they know we sent you now back to the show. So he meets a new woman Donna Marie Roberts. She's born May 22nd, 1944, about a year older than him. So they're both in their mid 30s at this point. It's a prime time for a second marriage for everybody. She's also divorced a couple of times as we'll talk about. She was from Youngstown, Ohio originally. So in this area, she graduated Austin Town Fitch High School in Ohio. She's a self-described businesswoman. She's recently divorced when they met. They met in 1980 and she had gotten divorced earlier in 1980. And she meets Robert. Now a little bit of her history. In 1966, she was 22 years old and she married her first husband William Raymond and they moved down to Miami together. Florida, not Ohio. I guess you got to say that in Ohio. You might think we're talking about there. So they had a son in 1969, apparently also named Michael. So both Robert and Donna both have sons named Michael. We're around the same age from what I get here. That marriage didn't last very long and they divorced in 1971. So she's, you know, in her 20s, newly divorced, whatever. In 1972, she doesn't waste a lot of time. Grass does not grow under her fucking diaphragm. We'll put it that way. She dives right back in here. I tried to think of a 1971 form of birth control and I'm like diaphragm. They loved the diaphragm back then. That was a hot shit form. So she in 1972 remarries, or marries another guy here. She gets remarried, but to a different guy, to Burton Gelfand. Yikes. Burton Gelfand. Now this marriage will last until 1980 when she meets Mr. Fingerhut there. Sure. So somewhere in from 72 to 80, she converted to Judaism. I don't know when that, oh yeah. I think Burton Gelfand is probably Jewish. Possibly, yeah. Especially she met him in Miami. It's, it all lines up Burton Gelfand. So I think that's possibly it. So she converted to Judaism. She works as a plastic surgeons assistant in North Miami Beach for a long time. What are they here for from the 70s to the 90s? Help me jam this suction rod up this lady's thigh. Yeah, you gotta hand me this. You gotta hand tools, yeah. Yeah, there's a whole, I mean they usually have multiple assistants during a surgery. But she's not medically, but learned? No, she has no master's degrees in anything. But yeah, she worked as a plastic surgeons assistant. Like I said, not sure exactly what that entails. That might be sterilizing, I don't know what she does. She could be just doing paperwork. No clue, exactly. Which sounds like a decent job anyway. Sure, yeah. Easy and, you know, very Miami also. Oh boy. So 1980, she meets Robert Fingerhut. Yeah. And it's the Donna Fingerhut connection here. Should they get together? They get married within a year of meeting. She's quick, man. She marries you, she meets you, that's over. They bought a house in the Miami Gardens area in 1983. Doing that. So marriage seems to be going well. Yeah. So well that in 1985 they decide to get divorced. Oh. Okay. But, and I say that very specifically, so well that they decide to get divorced, they don't break up. This has nothing to do with their marriage whatsoever. I mean, yeah. This is crazy. I mean, cause yeah, divorced kind of is everything about your marriage. Yeah, but they, as far as if they didn't have that paperwork, you'd never know anything. Nothing changes. They don't move out from each other's house. They don't. Oh. Everything's exactly the same, but on paper they're divorced. That's the way they do it. Now this is some sort of weird financial move. I don't know if Robert had like lawsuit issues possibly or something of that nature because that seems to be the reason why they did this, because the divorce was a financial maneuver strictly. Oh. Yeah. They get divorced and then he wanted to move assets around in case he got sued or something like that. So basically he ends up putting all of his business assets and shit in her name. Okay. Everything houses, everything they're going to have is going to be in her name from now on. And they're divorced, so you can't touch it. Yes. You sue him, you can't get to her basically, or you can't get to him essentially. Right. Yeah. So that's how this goes. They still live together. They're still a happy couple. They do everything together. They present themselves in public as a married couple. He calls her my wife. She calls him my husband. I mean, it's just a paperwork thing, which is really weird. You know, slept in the same bed, all of that. Yeah, it's weird. And one person said most people who dealt with Robert, with Roberts and Fingerhot, assumed that they were married. Her last name is Roberts and his name is Robert. His first name is Robert. That's so confusing. Okay. Yeah. So they end up selling the floor at a place. Okay. And went to Richmond, Virginia in about 1992. Interesting. Yeah. They spend about a year in Virginia. Then in 1993, they move up to Youngstown, Ohio, you know, Donner's hometown. They decide to go from Miami to Youngstown, Ohio, which is a real specific move. You have to, you have to hate that heat to go do that. And yourself. And yourself. Well, that's a lateral move as far as pain goes. Youngstown is brutal. Yeah. It's brutal, but I could not live in Miami. I would last three days there before I would strangle somebody because I was so fucking hot. I can't take that fucking. Yeah. Youngstown is just fucking hideous. 97% with 98% humidity. Yeah. And you're in Florida. Fuck that. Yeah, I guess. Fuck that. There's nothing great about rural Ohio though. No. Rural Ohio. It's fucking bleak. We've driven through it. All there is is that grandpa's cheese place that we stopped at. Yeah. That's about it. Yeah. Boy, the bathroom in there is a sight to behold. Let me tell you something. My God. There's definitely what you would imagine a roadside cheese shop. Cheese distribution shop. The smell like. Like everyone's been in the car a long time, then stopped and had too much cheese, essentially. And sauce. There's meats too. There's all sorts of weird shit. Fucking crazy. So 1994, they purchased a house in Howland township on Fonderlach Drive. Okay. Technically, Donna purchases the house because it's in her name, but it's their house. Everything else. All the assets are in her name. Now they have these businesses, by the way, they have Greyhound terminals in Warren and Youngstown in Donna's name. They have an Avis rental car franchise at the Youngstown Warren Regional Airport. At the airport? Yeah, and that sounds like a big one there, the Youngstown Warren Regional Airport. Well, that's a big flight's going in there, boy. That's also in Donna's name. And inside the Youngstown bus station, these are the most depressing locations ever. Two Greyhound terminals, a car rental joint in a tiny rural fucking municipal airport. Shithole, yeah. And a restaurant inside a shitty town's bus station. God damn. That's what they run. The restaurant inside the bus station was called Just the Ticket. That's what they had here. So all of this stuff is what they own, and this is all in Donna's name. Robert runs it all, though. Donna does the bookkeeping and stuff. Paperwork, that kind of thing. In addition to that, he also has, even though they're not married, even his life insurance policies are in her name. For sure, yeah. She's the beneficiary. He has two policies with a combined $550,000 of money, and sole beneficiary is Donna for both of these. That's in the late 90s, that comes up. Now, he's at the Greyhound terminal all the time. Which he owns several businesses, I would think you'd have to probably spend some time there. You gotta be at them, yeah. Yeah, he was the one who worked all the long days there and shit like that. She'd do paperwork and payroll and things, but he did all of that. But they were very comfortable, they made good money. Yeah. Which is, there's no sadder place on earth than a Greyhound station. Not really, no. Nobody there would be traveling with that means if they could afford any other way to do it. This is, it's misery. Yeah, and we've learned from- Misery. Just a bit of opinions now, but- Oh my God. It's not even affordable. It's not even like a discount ticket. It's as expensive or more than flying. So many people say, in the end, they're like, I don't know why I didn't just fly, because in the end it cost me the same amount of money, but this took four days and they left me on the side of the road for seven hours at the middle of the night. I paid $800 to go from Youngstown to Denver. You did what? In 10 days. That's horrible. Slept on several floors. Shit in Greyhound station, bus stations for a week and a half. You could've just flown in two and a half hours. It's unbelievable. So Donna, in this relationship, Donna likes to spend money as well. Robert's a little more frugal, but Donna likes to spend, she likes to flaunt a little bit. She, in her own words, says she has 52 charge cards. What? 52 credit cards. I don't even know how many, I don't even know there was that many credit card companies. How the hell do you get that many credit cards? I guess you can have more than one with each one, but... Yeah, you could, but still. She's like different shitty banks, different interest rates. It wouldn't make sense to have 52 of them. Or even more so, like, I have two cards and both of them have a crazy limit that I'll never, ever, ever, ever spend. Yeah, two cards. How many, what's the limit? You know what I mean? Five, and how many? 52. 52 cards. 52 cards. What do you have a limit of 600 bucks on each card? I have two credit cards, one that is, we both use for airline shit. We get miles with it. And it's absurd what they keep doing with that. It's so silly, but we keep that, you know, you need a credit card on the road and hotels and all that kind of thing. And then I have like a backup credit card that I never use. That's what I have, basically. In case there's some problem with the other one. I'm not gonna fuck shit out a lot. That's exactly what I use it when I fucking read or won't read my American Express. Something like that, or even, who the hell knows? Some weird glitch and some shit. I don't know, I'm not getting turned away. Here's my other card. Thank God I've got a bank one and then I've got the American Express. And it's because banks fail and they have done that to me. Yeah, that happens, as we remember, when they shut down your account. I had that Delta AMX, I had actual money. Well, I didn't have any money, but. You could charge whatever you needed, though. Yeah. That's the good part. So she would basically, she wanted like large sums of money for to do things all the time. Like there's a day that we're gonna talk about here where he refused, Robert refused to give Donna $3,000. She got real mad at him. And somebody who was nearby said that she gave him, quote, the dirtiest look like it can kill a person. That's what they said, she was so mad. He wouldn't give her $3,000? $3,000 just to go fuck around with here. Yeah. They said that she was so mad, she was shaky and trembling. That's how mad she got. Like, pissed. They gotta be doing really well, huh? 52 charge cards? I don't know how you wouldn't. How the hell would you get that many issued to you? And everybody can get a shit lot of charge cards, right? Can you? I don't know. When I was four, I just didn't try to get charge cards because I was like, why would they give me one? I can't afford that. They also have businesses and you can make charge cards with no fucking... From the business too. You can have type company cards, personal cards. Nobody signed on it, it's just a fucking company. Yeah, totally. Now at this time too, late 90s, Robert's son, Michael lives down in Florida. He's down there, so he's not around either. We'll get to him later. So during this time, 2001-ish, Robert starts cracking down on her spending. Yeah. Starts doing this. Now she later on in her own writing, which, oh boy, we will get to her writing. She is quite the prolific writer over here. Yeah? Oh, Stephen King's got nothing on her. We got a Shakespeare? For, yeah, for incriminating writings, yes. Imagine if Stephen King wrote as much as he did, but detailing crimes he was gonna commit. That would be equivalent. She said that Robert was now giving her $100 a week for everything. Ah, that's her allowance. That's exactly. And he took away her charge cards. She said saying these are for emergencies only. And so she's now, instead of 52 charge cards, she's got $100 a week that she could use for discretionary spending. That's much less. Much less. She said that she was humiliated. She said, I'm not used to living like this. I'm used to having plenty of cash for whatever I want, buying everything I want. And they're in their 50s. He's probably thinking about retirement someday. How am I gonna do this forever? Yeah. Yeah, retirement, we need to do whatever. I'm not sure. Now at the same time, you might say, well, who's she telling all this to? I'm not used to living like this, blah, blah, blah. Well, one of the people she's telling is her boyfriend, who is 28 years younger than her. By the way, did I mention that part? Cause that's important. Nice. 28 years? Yeah, and he's banging her cause he thinks he's got a hot rich chick on his hands. Oh yeah. Then she tells him, I get $100 a week. He's like, I get $100. I make more than that. Well, not where he is in 2001 cause he's in prison in 2001. So he's making like four cents a day, probably in there. She's got a boyfriend who's in prison. A 28 year old younger guy who's in prison. Now, when they got together, he wasn't in prison, but he ended up going to prison while they were together here. And that's not her only boyfriend, mind you. What? Several other boyfriends. Yeah, she's quite a busy lady, this Donna. My God. Now, Nathaniel Jackson is her boyfriend, Nate Jackson. And he, like I said, 28 years younger than her. They had sex whenever they could. He's from Youngstown, by the way. That's where he's born and raised. And they have sex in apartments he's staying in with friends, they stop at motels, parking lots. They fuck at the bus terminal. How sleazy is that? If you're fucking at a bus terminal, that's just disgusting. That's just gross. How old is she now? In her fifties? In her fifties, 2001 Christ. She's gonna be, yeah, in her mid fifties at this point. She's born in 40, 45, 46. What is she, 35? She's banging a man in his twenties? Yeah, yeah. God, I'm dying. Yeah, 28 years younger. Good for her. I guess, well, not really. It's fine. But yeah, I mean, that's fine. We say good for her, but if it was the other way around, we'd be like, come on, grandpa, fuck you. So the same bullshit applies. Come on, grandma, fucking get your fucking shit in reality. Yeah. You're having on thereafter you for money, stupid. Whoever it is, it's 28 years younger than you. Nobody 28 years younger than you wants to fuck you. That's, that's put that to the world. She's in a relationship and she lives with a man. So it's like, figure it out lady, get your fucking self esteem in order. Thank you, exactly. And that goes for everybody. Anybody, if you're in your fifties and someone in their twenties wants to fuck you and you're not famous, it's just cause they think you're gonna buy them shit. That's it. That's it. If you're in like a big band or something, you had a bunch of big hits in the nineties, you could probably get somebody younger than you that just thinks you're cool or whatever, but it's still for money. Either way. I suppose. Nobody wants your old balls. Nobody wants that. They just don't. They don't want guys for sure, but I mean, I'm with an older woman in your twenties. I don't know. It's pretty cool. It feels cool. Get the fuck out of here. I don't want it. In your twenties, you can get tits that are great. Well, why would you do that? Same thing with the guys. You can get balls that are still close to the body. Why the fuck do you want ones hanging down in somebody's knees? Bullshit. Nobody's fucking, you explained to me of the older lady, you fucked. And why was it, Jimmy? Cause she bought you shit. Well, because it was fun. No, you told me why. It's cause she bought you shit. That's why you said you were out with her. Well, she paid for dinner and shit. She wouldn't allow me to pay for dinner. Yes, because you're younger than her son. That's why. I was younger than the daughter that my friend was banging. Yes. Exactly. Yes. She's a creepy, creepy old woman and you're a disgusting fucking- She didn't let me. That's so wild. Yeah. That's why you're, she's like, no, there's a reason why you're with me. And it's cause I pay for things and then you bang me. That's how this works. You're fucking this all up. Dude, that's what she was saying. She's like, probably you can't, you're messing it up. Yeah, you're making the whole thing weird by trying to pay for shit. You're trying to pay? Yeah. I'm trying to get like a sugar mama situation happening and you're trying to make this a relationship. I don't like it. Oh God. Yeah. So he had prior convictions also. This guy, he's got problems. He's got issues. He's a criminal. He's a bit of a criminal. Yeah. He is, has a bit of a problem here. By 2001, they got together around 99-ish, early 2000. By 2001, he's incarcerated at Lorraine Correctional Institution in Grafton, Ohio, on what's, I think it's a gun charge as the, what we've heard rumor of, but not positive. So he's scheduled to be released later on here. Won't be there for too long. But this affair, like we said, started well before prison. So Nate, 28 years younger. But they really seem to be getting close by the time he goes to jail. No, I don't know if that's because she's someone willing to hang with them while he's in jail. Right. So, you know. Or maybe he's dangerous and she likes that and it's hot. Part of it, yeah. But it's very strange though. When they started out around late 99, she was 55 and he was 27. Okay. That's double. That's too much. Too much. So, it's very interesting here. Now, Nate seems to really, in the correspondences we find out about from jail, he talks about building a world of our own and running away together and all this shit. Oh. Running away together. You better find somewhere with a good medical care because she's pushing 60 sweetheart. You got a fucking, what are you talking about, bro? Run away within reach of your parole officer. Your parole officer and a very good regional medical center. That's what you need between the two of you. Perhaps a mayo. Yeah. You need to check in every month and her hips are getting a little fragile. So, come on. She's gonna need mammograms and all that shit. All sorts of shit. Pretty frequently, yeah. All kinds of stuff going on. She's gonna have to have her fucking, yeah. She's gonna have to have her pap smeared and all that stuff. She's gonna have prolapses from all the areas happening pretty soon. You don't want that. Her heels are gonna hurt. There's gonna be some problems. It's very soon, by the way. Running isn't really what you're talking about. Yeah, don't go running. No, don't go running anywhere. Do it at ginger brisk walk. We're gonna go for a nice mall walking pace. In an orthopedic shoe, preferably. In a very comfortable orthopedic shoe, he's gonna get her one of those walkers with the tennis balls on the bottom. It's gonna be great. Okay. Don't run, walk in Hocus. Yeah. December 11th, 2001. Yeah. Okay. Robert is working a closing shift at the Youngstown Terminal. He's by himself in charge there doing whatever. There's a bus driver named Jim McCoy, who I can only assume is an ex-convict. Yeah. Maybe not. He saw Robert there at 4.30 in the afternoon working by himself. All right. And he sees him doing that. And shortly after 4.30, this is that McCoy, the driver just left Youngstown, drives his bus to the Warren Greyhound Terminal, the other one that they run. And there McCoy sees Donna with a young black male. Uh-oh. Who was Nate, Nate's a young black male. And these two don't look like a couple. Let's just say that. No, she looks like an older white woman and he looks like a young black guy. They don't look like the most like, oh yeah, those two are probably together. Like as a couple, it just doesn't look like it. You know what I mean? At all. Looks like a guy that she's helping out. Well, I don't know. Like adopted son maybe? Or like one of her son's friends? Or some sort of ward of, yeah. Possibly one of her grandchildren's, you know, father, I don't know. Something, it's interesting. So. Yeah. Nate sees them together. And now the man identified himself to the bus driver as Nathaniel. Okay. Nate's full name. Oh, he's going by Nathaniel, huh? Going by Nathaniel, that's his formal. Yeah. He's going bus station formal right now. Yeah. He's going what's on the driver's license. Well, when you meet, when you meet at a Greyhound station, you give your full government name. That's how it works. Sorry, it's every time. State ID. Yep. So he said the two of them appeared to be in a hurry to leave the bus driver set. And Nathaniel told the bus driver quote, we're trying to get out of here. Okay. The security guard saw Robert leave the other Greyhound station at nine PM saying, I'm going home. So we know Robert was working at the Greyhound station till nine, then he's going home. December 12th, 2001. So this is that night at 12, 01 AM. So it's just technically December 12th, but it's three hours and one minute after Robert left the Greyhound station there. December 12th, 2001. So technically the next day, but 12, 01 AM. So barely. Just, I mean, it's three hours. Brand new day. Yeah, three hours and one minute since Robert left the Greyhound station, so he was going home. A 911 call comes in to the Trumbull County dispatch here. It's Donna Roberts calling 911. Screaming into the phone. Screaming like a banshee, hysterical. Big problem. Telling the dispatcher, there's something wrong with my husband. There's something wrong with my husband. The dispatcher for the first few times she said it couldn't even make out what the hell she was saying. That's how crazy she was. She's just freaking out. Hysterical. Crying, shouting, holding the phone away and yelling shit. Just crazy. So the dispatcher keeps her on the line and they send the police. They're like, once they get the address, they're like, all right, whatever's there, the police will handle. So we'll just send them. I don't know what you need, but we're sending everybody we have here. Here they come. Here they come. So this is the Howlin Township is a very small department, obviously. And they get there pretty quick. It's a small town, not a lot of distance to cover. It's about a mile from the police station, the house. So pretty close. Oh, it's close. Very close. So within minutes, the patrol cars are coming into the driveway here. First officers on the scene are the ones who are gonna end up putting the case together here. Well, the first one there is an officer named Albert Ray. And then the detectives start showing up. Sergeant Paul Monroe and Detective Sergeant Frank Dillon. And also the captain, this comes as well. This is what I mean, murders don't happen a lot here. So if someone says, I don't know what's wrong with my husband, the police captain shows up. Well, send the cap. Small town, you know? That's a small town. My husband is in distress. Well, what's the problem? I don't know. Well, the captain does, I don't know. That's it. The game ward and the mayor's gonna show up next. We'll send them and find out what you need. So these are all the people that end up kind of handling the case, basically, here. Now, when they pull up, they find Donna out in front of the house, standing out in front of the house. They go in the house, she says, in there, in there. So they go in there. Just inside the door from the garage, face down in a pool of blood, huge amount of blood, they find Robert Fingerhut dead. Next to him is a fully loaded 38 caliber revolver. Fully loaded. Fully loaded. That's gonna be a thing here. He's fully clothed. There is, you know, his wallet is still on him. There's no signs of any struggle in any of the rooms away from the kitchen. This didn't start in a bedroom and make its way to the kitchen or anything like that. So they said that during the hours, immediately following the 911 call, police observed Donna's emotional state fluctuating, which will happen. If you've watched someone who didn't murder someone, find out about them dying, that happens a lot. That's what happens. First they freak out, you might hyperventilate, fall down, and they go, okay, I gotta get calm. What's going on? What happens? Then they sit there for a minute. Seems like the first is like imagining what happened and that's shocking. And then once you get beyond that, then you start realizing, oh God, they're dead. And then you get over that and then you realize what dead means and they're not coming back. And then you freak out there. Exactly, and you have a little lull in that and you start thinking about, oh shit, now what do I do? And oh my God, and this is real. And then you start freaking out, but that's usually more of a quiet sobbing almost that I've seen. That's not a, ah! Yeah, and then you go to a funeral and see the body and then you freak out again. It's just a lot of freaking out. It's a lot of freaking out. And everybody is different too because I've read in books too, or like homicide cops, if someone's dead in a family, they're immediately scoping which family member they're gonna talk to as a contact and get help from because there's gonna be a bunch of people freaking out, there's gonna be a bunch of people doing histrionics, a bunch of people making it about themselves and then there'll be like one person who's calm and collected going, what do we need to do? How do I help? You gotta focus there. So everybody reacts differently. But they said that very much fluctuated. At times she'd be calm and quiet and at other times she was crying and screaming, oh my Robert, my Robert! Yeah. Oh, she was doing that, real. Robert, yeah. Now let's find out what's wrong with Robert here. And by the way, this is what she found this and said something's wrong with my husband, by the way. He shot three times. Well, that's impossible. You could pretty much see what's wrong with him probably by the fucking bullet holes in him in the chest, back and head. Oh God, it's not good. Not good. And on the large pool of blood and everything else. What kind of round did that? We'll find out in a minute. We're gonna go through the autopsy. The shot to the head described in the autopsy as a penetrating gunshot wound to the top of the head. Top of the head. Top of the head, which is not normal, obviously. That's usually somebody ducking or. On their knees. On their knees or on the ground or whatever. Or already, yeah. Yeah. They also wound to the chest, wound to the back. The shot to the head was the fatal one. Gunshot residue on the body indicated the head wound was inflicted at close range. So they set the muzzle of the gun very close to the head when it went off. In addition to the bullet wound, Robert had lacerations and abrasions on his left hand and on his head. So it looks like he was fighting as well. To his fighting, yeah. They're consistent with the struggle, so he definitely fought. The laceration on his left hand between the thumb and index finger was interesting because it would show that this is crazy. They just found a wound at first on there. Then when they went through it, they figured out that the bullet went through the. Went through the webbing. Webbing and into his head. That's the top of the head shot. Went through his. What? So he had his hand up. Yeah. Top of the head. So he saw it coming, knew it was coming and tried to put his hand up over it and the bullet went through the webbing. Jesus. I mean, if it hit a bone, it might have helped him. It might have saved him. If it hit one of the hands of the bone. What kind of round is it? It might have deflected it a little bit here. They're saying it is either a 38 or a 357. I don't know that. Which are very similar. It's going to stop it. Yeah. No, but it could. Bullets will deflect off bones like crazy. That's a crazy round though. Oh, it is. But they still powder. They deflect off bones a lot. That happens an awful lot. 38? It happens tons. I've seen an autopsy shit. Deflecting off bones and things like that. Bones can be harder than we think sometimes. And bullets don't always break them. Sometimes they'll also could have slowed it down enough to where it's. There's just so much powder behind a 38 and a 357. They just move so fast. I'm not sure if at that close of range, it would have mattered. Put it that way. That's a great point too. From 10 feet is a big difference from a foot. Slow down. But if it's coming right out the barrel. Right there in the ear. That thing's coming down. It probably wouldn't make much of a difference. No, it probably would go right through whatever. Even still though, it's crazy that he knew to put his hand up on top of his head. Yeah. That means they could see it. Yeah, he could see what they were doing. To me it sounds like head and chest. Hand to hand combat. Yeah, got shot in the head and the back in the chest went down to his knees. Yeah. And then somebody did that while he tried to cover up. That's what it seems like to me, but I mean, I could be completely wrong. I'm not a crime scene reconstructionist. I don't know. So the state investigators do have crime scene reconstructionists. Sure. And they have an idea of what they think happened. They think that this didn't start in the kitchen, but started in the garage. They said that Robert came home, pulled into the garage, parked, got out of his car, and they think that's where he was attacked. Okay. In the garage. They said he was beaten, pistol whipped also, they think. There's abrasions that are consistent with the pistol whipping. So that would make sense if somebody hit him, he doesn't go down and fights back and takes a swing because in the movies, when you pistol whip somebody, they fall right down unconscious. I mean, they're out. Almost dead. It's almost over. I mean, they're just, they could be standing there perfectly, just, oh, I'm dead. I mean, on the ground. That's a, it's like in wrestling. When someone gets hit with the belt, they're unconscious, no matter what. It's crazy how heavy that thing is. It's insane that it's a, you know, a millimeter thick piece of metal. And it's just out cold. Just can't stop the guy, even though I've seen him get punched in the head and kicked 40 times in the last five minutes. That makes it out. I see him get thrown off the rope and into a boot. And they're fine. Still, that belt though, watch out. But yeah, pistol whipping, like the first Beverly Hills cop, when he walks in and the guy hits him from behind, he just, he's out, Betty Murphy's unconscious in the first one. I mean, boom, in the hallway. It's crazy how quick you can sneak up on somebody and just whack him with a snub nose. They don't, you never see him again in the movie. They're gone. They're out. May as well be dead. He woke up later like, what, what happened? I mean, sleepy time. Yeah. So that's what they think. He was pistol whipped. He fought a little bit, leaving abrasions on his hand and head, made it through the door from the garage into the kitchen, probably trying to get away from the person. And it was inside the kitchen door. That's when the shots were fired. One on the back first probably. They were all, yeah, they were all very close range. And they said the last one top of the head through his hand was probably when he'd already fallen and was on the ground because otherwise top of the head makes no sense unless the guy's eight foot three. Right. Doesn't make a lot of sense. So the blood spatter and the body position established the kitchen as the death site and the garage as the beginning of it all. And the doorway is the root there, obviously. They said the shooter would have walked through Robert's blood on the way out. So they look for that. And there are footprints in the blood. Bingo. They have footprints of a certain shoe pattern and certain size and they're pretty goddamn good and clean too. So that's gonna help later, okay? So they're processing the crime scene obviously. This is a lot to process. The while they're doing this at 3.30 a.m. the house phone rings at the house. Okay. Someone calls the crime scene at 3.30 in the morning. Calls finger huts house. He calls finger huts and Donna's house. So Detective Sergeant Monroe answers it. And there's a pause and then they hung up. They paw, which is amazing. Did he identify himself as a police officer? Yeah, he said, yeah, hello. Crime scene, Detective So- Crime scene. Yeah. There you go. So he does that, which is interesting here. There's a pause and a hang up on that. So a lot of times too, people call, murderers will call crime scenes sometimes. It's very strange. Yeah, who knows anything? Yeah. In one book I was reading this guy killed a guy who's a debt collector. He worked for like one of those rental places. Sure. Weekly rent a center type joints and he would go around in Baltimore and do his rounds every week and collect. And he just disappeared in the middle of his rounds one day and he would carry large amounts of cash because he would be collecting along the way. And some dude just killed him and put him in his basement and then left and then afterwards called the police and were like, yo, yeah, it's me, it's my house and I killed him. And the cops thought he was a prank caller so they hung up on him. Yeah. And they were like, hey, what's the name of the guy that lives here? And they told him and the guy goes, oh shit, I just hung up on the guy. Fuck, they're like, what were you doing? I was telling you to fuck himself. And the guy called back and he's like, they were like, no, no, no, you're good. Yeah, no, come on over. We got you covered. We'll come and arrest you. Hey, don't we go fuck myself? That's not, I'd like to want to complain please. It was real weird. So later on, this call is traced to Donna Robert's cell phone. Oh, oh. She's not, after a while, she's out of the scene once they're processing, you can't hang out there. So they also said that it was weird. Over the course of the evening, her demeanor was odd. They said that the detective, Sergeant Monroe and other officers noticed that, quote, when police investigators talked extensively, they no longer heard her shouting. She'd be like, oh my Robert, oh my Robert. But then when they were in like a big talk and whatever, then she'd be sitting calmly. So they said, when they entered the room where she was, then she'd start wailing again. Oh my Robert. But when they were doing other shit and she was separate from them, she was very quiet. She'd only wail when someone was there. How long was she gone? She had to leave the house, right? Cause her cell phone is calling the house. Yeah, yeah. After a while, she's taken her out of there because she's just at the crime scene. So she goes to a relatives house after a while. Now they don't know at first that that's who called, but they find out later through the records. They said, when a detective checked on Robert's in her bedroom because she had been quiet, she began shouting again upon seeing him. Like see if she's all right in there. And they went and saw her as soon as he came in the room. Oh God. It's horrible, which is interesting. Very interesting. Our teenager trying to call in sick to school. Yeah, oh my stomach. Oh God, it's horrible. Oh, it hurts. It hurts. So they said, one of the officers at the scene said that he quote, didn't notice any tears coming from her eyes through these giant, you know, bouts of hysteria. Which is interesting, which a lot of people, when they fake crying, they're not good at, that's the part they don't get. You need snot and tears in there to make that shit believable. Yeah, it's fascinating how many, I haven't seen a real good cry on TV in so long. Trying to think. The last one I saw, the last documentary. Oh, which one? The should I marry a murderer or documentary with the Scottish people? And she cried a lot. She does, she should have been crying because she's dumb as shit, but she cried a lot. The last one I found was that mentally challenged girl that was kidnapped by Ariel Castro. That poor, the one that he fucking hated that he was so mean to. Her crying in court is so real. Like she came over and forced her way in the house. You kidnapped these people and you're like, ah, I don't like the one I kidnapped, sorry. Poor girl's crying and blowing snot bubbles in court. It's so horrible, I feel so bad for her. That is bad. Yeah, that one, that should I marry a murderer or documentary? You get to see a doctor cry a lot. She cries a lot. All right. So no tears. The cops noticed this and write it in their report. No tears. This isn't cry. It's not a cryer there, okay? Very dehydrated. She's keeping it, that's what it is. She's conserving her water. That's how it goes. So 10 a.m., Detective Monroe visits Donna at her brother's house. By that time, she gives them written consent to search everything in the residence. Because they start to consent from her to search everything just to make it official, you know what I mean? I mean, they could search around the body and, you know, but to really go through everything with a fine tooth comb, they need her to search for it. So she enthusiastically signs it and says, quote, do whatever you have to do to catch the bastard who killed my Robert. Exclamation point. Don't, yeah, you fucking search and search. I don't care what you have to do. You find that son of a bitch there. So anyway, other things she wrote down are, Nate and Donna were writing each other a lot, a lot of letters we find out from the search, by the way. When they go to search her house and they search everything, they find a whole lot of shit with Nate here. They find love letters and shit? Tons of them, tons of them. The letters are addressed on Donna's end to a PO box she set up and worn because she didn't want Robert to see letters coming to the house from jail. Nate writes from prison on fucking whatever, like a paper bag, chunk the rights in. Whatever paper he can acquire in prison is what he writes on, which reminds me of Dope Sick Love. He's sitting on the step and he's like, yo man, tell him how you feel, man. Let it all out, man. Tell him how you feel. And he's writing a crack, he's on so much crack, writing a fucking love letter to his imprisoned girlfriend on a paper bag. On an inside out McDonald's bag. It is wild. And he's going, yo, tell her how you feel, man. Tell her how you feel, his friend's saying. Put your heart around the fries oil stains. Sad part of it was it was generic. It wasn't even a McDonald's bag. It was like, he got it like a bodega when he got a pack of cigarettes or something. It was even sadder. It's just the brown paper. Just plain as can be. Plain as can be. So that's what he sends. And it's 285 letters in total that they're gonna find. 300 pages? 285, 145 letters from Nate to Donna. They found sitting in her dresser drawer. She kept every one of them. Every goddamn one of them. Well, maybe we don't have to cut them in 400, I guess. Then there's 140 from Donna to Nate. Ooh, that is found in a brown paper bag with Nate's name written on it in the trunk of Donna's car, which is parked in the garage at the crime scene. Oh my God. His name is written on it, just in case you don't know that all the letters are addressed in Nate's bag. She didn't think that would look bad, huh? Nope, not at all. No, she said that you search and you go ahead. So more of those letters in a bit here. All right. All right, now, first of all, they do find from there that he's in prison. So they're like, okay, well, that's probably one suspect we don't have to worry about since he's in prison. Then they find, well, yeah, then they find out, oh, he was released two days ago. Oh, shit. He's released from prison on December 9th. That's not good. So December 12th in the afternoon, Donna goes to talk to the police. They got some questions here, obviously. 185 of them. At least 285. Explain this one. Yeah. Explain this one. 285. 285, it's worse. Yeah, 185 would be. She has to sit there all day. All day. Well, they don't bring that up at first. At first, they say, tell us about your life with Robert. You know, they treat her like a widow at this point. So she describes a loving relationship. Between her and Robert? Between her and Robert. Yeah, loving relationship. She also stated that, this is amazing, that she and Robert were a, quote, a cool couple. Which, what do you think that means? I know what that means. You know exactly what that means. And quote, he did his thing and she did hers. Yeah. That's what he says. We're a cool couple. Meaning she lets me have prison. He has a lair. Young prison dick and he can do whatever he wants, the Greyhound station. Yeah. Wow. So, cool couple doing his thing. Now, we're a cool couple. We're a cool couple, god damn it. He describes her relationship, yeah, as loving here, but sexually, you know, like I said, they're cool. It's all good. So they said, well, who have you been in a sexual relationship with? We'd like to talk to them. And she said, well, for about six months, I've been banging some guy named Carlos. So there's him. There's Carlos. There's also a sexual relationship with another guy named Santiago that I've been fucking for a while too. He said, I tried, she said, I tried to help Santiago and I was trying to help him out, you know, and fuck him at the same time. But he ended up stealing money from, money and a gun from me. So I don't talk to him anymore. Wow. Yeah, he stole from me. So they said, anyone else besides Carlos and Santiago that you've been seeing? And she says, no, there's nobody else. I told you everybody. No. That's all. So then the cops say, well, what about a guy named Nate Jackson? Her quote, quote, yes, I forgot about him. Ha. Ha. Imagine fucking someone 30 years younger than you and forgetting about it. Just, oh wow. I get so many lineal feet of penis on a monthly basis from different people. I forgot about that one. I don't even know. I'm sure Nate's gonna be thrilled to know that. Just forgot all about him. She said, oh yeah, that's right. I've been dating him for about two years, but I forgot he existed. Oh yeah. And they said, well, he was in jail recently in prison. Were you calling and exchanging letters? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we were writing back and forth and calling. Totally forgot about that guy. Yeah, see that's why I forgot. Out of sight, out of mind. Yeah. It slipped. Jesus Christ. This is how out of sight he was though. She then realizes that she has to tell the truth about this. She said, well, they said, well, the words the last time you saw him must have been a long time ago if you forgot about him. She said, on December 9th, two days ago, three days ago when he got out of jail, I picked him up at the Lorraine Correctional Institution and then left him in Youngstown at a house on Wert Street. Okay. So, you know, I should have probably remembered him. You're right, you're right. Considering I still have, Oh yeah. 49 hours ago, that guy. His dried semen on a part of my body somewhere, possibly. It may still be dripping. It's possible. I'm pretty, I keep pretty moist. Let's just say that. I keep myself lotioned up. Good. It could be anywhere. If I'm wearing the same underwear from yesterday, Oh, it's in there. 100% certain is DNA. It's in there. A lot of it. So she said she last spoke to him over the telephone on the morning of December 11th. So the morning of the murder. Now, they know from people at the Greyhound Station that on the afternoon of December 11th, she was in the Greyhound Station with a guy named Nathaniel who fits this guy's description. How many young black guys named Nathaniel you hanging out with, lady? So they're like, okay. So they're collecting her inconsistencies. And then she says, look, Robert, like I said, we were cool. And, you know, cool. We were cool. So you might want to look into. Cool list. You might want to look into people he was seeing. Yeah, people that aren't so goddamn cool. Yeah, because Robert, by the way, also was going both ways, quote unquote. What? She's saying he was bisexual. Yeah. Yeah. And said that Robert had a friend named Bobby. Oh. That was his guy he was banging. She couldn't even come up with a different name that wasn't his. That's crazy. She almost said Robbie, but she... Yeah. Bobby, Bobby with a B. Yeah. Lots of B's in that name. Yeah. She also said that Robert had been, quote, acting kind of nutty for the week and a half before he died, which she just attributed to whatever, you know, whatever relationship goofiness was going on with him and Bobby. Yeah. Okay. Now there is absolutely zero. Zero evidence. Evidence or corroboration that Robert was bisexual. There's zero. But they had a friend named Bobby. There's zero evidence that he's had any other relationships and they could not find a human being named Bobby that he interacted with ever, essentially. This Bobby, they couldn't, they asked her to track him down. She couldn't know. They asked, they tried to track him down. No Bobby anywhere to be found. Bobby is in the way. Feels perhaps made up. Bobby in the breeze at this point. Yeah. So they're like, hmm, that's interesting. A bisexual relationship with an imaginary man. That sounds plausible. Okay. So they said, okay, do you have a cell phone? You have a cell phone, right? Can I look at it? Yeah. She searched her purse and said, oh, I must have left it at home. What? Okay. And then you gotta understand too, because everybody now, your phone goes with you to the bathroom, but. Goes with you everywhere. In 2001, your phone was just a phone. Yeah. You would just leave it sitting somewhere because unless you wanted to make a call, it was useless for anything else. There wasn't even a fucking camera on it yet in 2001. You could certainly play the snake game. You could play Tetris possibly if you got a really good phone. That snake game was mad addicted. There's a lot of those shitty games that were addicted. So Detective Monroe tells her that their call that came to the crime scene at 3.38 AM came from her cell phone. Right. So she sits there for a minute like, huh, that's weird. How did that happen? I don't get it. So easy. My cell phone? And then she comes and she figures it out. She says, oh, I know, Nate must have had the phone. He's always borrowing it. He's been in a jail for three days. So he's only been borrowing it for three days, number one. And number two, you didn't remember this guy 12 minutes ago. Right. And now he's got, currently has your cell phone. This is the worst lying ever. You should have done it so fast. I had to see if it was real. Yeah. Something. It's so easy to watch that call. I had to see, but why'd you hang up? That's the thing. Why would you hang up? As soon as I heard cops, I hung up. I was like, it is real. That would sound better than this. I must have borrowed it to somebody. Yeah, that sounds, I mean, that would have sounded better what you have over here. Yeah. Even though she was the one who called it in, so she goddamn knows it's real. It's not like they notified her of it and she had to call to make sure. Like still though, it sounds better than. I don't know. Sounds better than a guy I forgot about has my phone. Must have. Yeah. I don't even know if that's for sure. He must have it. He's always borrowing. He's always borrowing at that guy. Always. So still the same day, December 12th, 2001, Robert's vehicle is found. Oh, it was taken. It was gone. It is taken. It's found in Youngstown, three blocks from Wirt Street, which is where Donna told the police she dropped off Nate when he got out of prison. Three, like three blocks from the house that he's supposed to be at. Oh boy. A forensic team finds blood on the driver's side visor and in other areas around the automobile. Yeah. Not good. Then over the next few days, police continue to investigate things that they hear. Right. And they end up at the wagon wheel motel, which sounds nice. Just gorgeous, beautiful place here. They find out that Roberts had registered at the days in also, because they find out that Donna and Nate had spent the night that he got out of prison together at the wagon wheel motel. Then she went over to the days in and registered for a week and paid for it. Yeah. Let's fuck at all the worst hotels in America. All of the most mediocre shitholes there are. Let's go there. At least this is like a chain shithole, not the wagon wheel motel. Yikes. So they know that they were planning on at least having Nate have a place for a week or possibly her too. So they do ballistics and the bullets that killed Robert come from a totally different 357 or 38, not the one next to his body. So they had to make sure of that, obviously. He's got a 350, a possible 38 slug in his head and a 38's lying next to him. Well, that gun also fires both rounds. That's the other, that's why they say they don't know which one it came out of. So they said that they can't find that the other weapon, though, look, they love to find the actual murder weapon. Yeah, love to know what did it, cause this thing's fully loaded. And how did he not get a round off in defense? That's fast. That's a thing that must have been bumrushed pretty fast. If he had time to throw a left hook, he had time to shoot. And he had a gun out, you know what I mean? It's easier to shoot than throw a left hook. Or perhaps he's trying to get away cause the guns on the inside of the house gets into the house, grabs a gun, but is shot two times before he can let one off. Yeah, well, we'll find out here. So there's an explanation to this, which is the fun part. Now Michael, his son said he was more than just a dead body. He was a person that people cared about. So he was very upset with the whole thing. And this Michael too, he'll keep having to come back from Ohio, basically draining his bank account to keep coming back here to go to court hearings. Where is he from? He's lives in Florida, the son. He's gotta keep coming back. Now remember those letters they found in the dressing drawer. 295 of them? And in a paper bag marked Nate. Yeah, okay. Here are the letters here. They start reading them and they got a pretty good idea what's going on once they start reading them. Here is Nate to Donna early October 2001. Yeah. Quote, why don't you leave Robert and let's carry on with the world of our own? Or let me do what I was gonna do to him because you know what? That was our little thing. So you better not go and try and get someone, get to know someone else to do it because I told you, or you better not to try, sorry, he spells no N-O-K-N-O-W. He spells no like that. He says, you better not, Nate, you better not try to get no one else to do it. K-N-O-W, no, no one else. That's why I was like, you better not get to know someone, but no, he means it this way because I told you it's getting done when I come home. Okay. Okay. Less than a week later, he writes back again. Quote, Donna, I got it already planned out on how we're gonna take care of the Robert situation. Question mark for some reason, which that's not a question. That's very much a statement. And baby, it's the best plan ever exclamation point. Because Donna, it's now time that we really get to be together so that we can really see the true side of our love because I'm tired of not being able to be with you. Oh boy. Okay. It's the best plan ever, he says. He said that? He said, the second sentence. Did you hear he said, and baby, it's the best plan ever. All right. So, interesting. The next, Donna keeps writing back saying, like, are you sure? You know, I mean, we don't have to do this, but maybe if you're sure, blah, blah, blah. Nate's next letter to her in October of 2001. Donna, I don't care what you say, but Robert has to go. Holy. Now it's getting pretty specific and clear what's going on here. And he only spells and, an by the way, every time. And I'm not gonna let you stop me this time. And, and Donna, you know that I've always wanted to live my life with you and only you, but every time I wanted to take care of the situation by myself, you wouldn't never let me. Wouldn't never. What's that mean? She would let him. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it's a double negative there, chief. Because you wouldn't let me do what I wanted to do to make you happy. And that was get rid of him. So Donna, can I do this so that we can go on and live happy and then maybe we can sell the house and move on somewhere else on our own? And I'm not gonna be happy until that happens. He's gonna find a nice retirement community with us. And the best part is we can live in 55 and over communities. Well, she, I don't know if he's allowed. I'll sneak in, it's fine. You can buy the house. I'll just, you know, no one needs to know. You can get a gray wig. It's all good, don't sweat it. Well, shit, I'm black. They don't know how old I am. It's a great point too. You can walk up and be like, I'm 63 years old, people go, okay. It's possible. You wouldn't challenge it. No, you look like an asshole. You never know. Yeah, you never know. So he said, so this is, he's been, it seems like really talking about this for a long, just come on, let me kill your husband, please. And he's pushing the issue. Please. Yeah, he's pushing it totally. And she's saying things like, I don't know. Maybe if you're good. I don't know. Maybe if we're good, we'll stop at McDonald's on the way home and then you can murder my husband. But only if you're good. If you listen real good all day. If you're really good while mommy has her appointment, you can maybe kill my husband. But only if you also dig out the trash when you're home. Please do that. Which yeah, every time I wanted to take care of the situation by myself, you wouldn't never let me. That's very telling here. It's not fair. It's not fair, mom. So Donna's response, this is mid-October 2001, quote, you know you can always count on me, you always could. It'll just be a little tougher now because he gives me $100 a week for everything and then makes me write checks to keep track of it all. She's got to balance the checkbook about it? Well then he can tell where all the money went. He just gives her piles of cash. She can go give it to prisoners who are fucking her and wanting to kill him. So it makes sense. Yeah, excellent point. It's a smart move. Don't go putting this on somebody's books. You have $20 a day. You're not buying anybody's ramen noodles with this show. No, no. I should be able to sponsor you for $20 a day. That's it. So I think this was in response to him needing more money also because she's saying, look, I'll help you all I can, but you know I don't have any money now. She says, quote, and I haven't been allowed, and it's on all caps, allowed, to use any of my 52 charge cards. She brings it up. She brings this up constantly, by the way, about the charge cards. 52 credit cards. Good Christ, that's one a week. It's wild, yeah. She's very proud of the fact that she has 52 charge cards and she brings it up quite often. I mean, it sounds like it's an achievement that she never thought that she would get. It's like being a million-miler or something. But this is not an achievement. You're not in debt if you're a million-miler. You get bonuses. This is like 52 people will allow me to pay them back money. What the hell? Every month. It's wild. With interest, but still. So I haven't been allowed to use any of my 52 charge cards and then dash emergency only. I'm not used to living like this. I'm used to having plenty of cash for whatever I want and buying everything I want. Maybe those days will return again soon. Do whatever you want to him, ASAP, she says. Do whatever you want to him, ASAP. Last word, amen. Amen. She fucking amends. You can go ahead and murder my husband message, amen. Wow. What the fuck are you doing, lady? Thank you for this food. Wow. The Nate's response is even crazier to the ASAP, amen bullshit here. Okay, he responds with a sketch. It's not a letter, it's a drawing. A drawing of Robert's tombstone with his name on it, all that shit. And in the inscription, the epitaph is rest in piss. That's his fucking... He's very creative, this date. And what is Nate so mad about? That's what I'm wondering. He seems more pissed off than her. I don't know why. I guess because she should be able to spend as much money as she wants on him. And Nate doesn't like seeing his lady suffer, man. I guess so. She's suffering, she's really suffering, you know. You take somebody's discover from him. I swear to Christ, that's not easy, man. It's disturbing when things are happening to your mom and you can't control them, you know what I mean? What's in her wallet? Not Capital One, I'll tell you that right now. Capital One and everything else, but she's not allowed to use them, unfortunately. Yeah, she might be the last person in the country to have a diner's club. I think she does, she's got it all, man. Whatever that tele-survival shit that he was pushing. That's a lot, man. I don't think I've ever seen 52 commercials for credit cards. That's about all I've seen 52 of is commercials for credit cards. I never heard of anyone having 52 credit cards. Imagine somebody watched TV for six months and then said, I'll take all of them. Every card I've seen advertised, I'll take them. Local ones from a bank, I don't give a shit, everything I got. I mean, there was that old trope of the 80s and late 90s of when somebody would unroll all their fucking credit cards. Yeah, it was a joke, but it wasn't 52. And that doesn't mean anything. Like 20 would come out. And that was like, oh, ha ha, 52. 52, that would touch the ground. For a man, go past the other person. You'd have to really rattle those up, it would take a long time. So the reason- I'm a fucking fishing reel to roll. Yeah, so he responds, rest in piss. Yeah. To him, Stone. Because he's mad. Because he's a little upset about some stuff. Then in late October, 2001 here, he says, fuck, Nate says, and then after that, you don't ever have to worry about making no more, K and O W more excuses to him, because he will no longer be with us after 12, 10, 01. Ain't now much more specific. I mean, good God. By the way, if you're European, that's December, not October. Not October 12. Yeah, that means December 10th, 2001. He died on December 11th, 2001, by the way. After December 10th, he will no longer be with us. Rest in piss. He may as well say, I'm going to murder a person on December 11th. Not even he'll no longer be a problem for us because he'll no longer be with us. It's literally- The only time you say that. He might as well have said he'll be passed away by then. There's no other more obvious way to put it. Even when a company says, oh, they're no longer with us, I go, oh, that's too bad. That's just- Oh, I'm sorry. So sorry to hear it. Yeah. How's his wife taking the news? So he says, and then it gets worse, by the way. He says, and then it'll be me and you totally and completely. Then he goes on and say, hey, Donna. Hey, Donna. Hey, Donna, just think. Come 12 11 01. You'll be waking up to me, or maybe we'll give it a couple of days to let things look cool. And then after the funeral, baby, when I come home, I'm never leaving and we're only doing it like that just to make it look good. Meaning, I would, I'd murder him and then we would fucking his blood, but you know how the police will frown upon that. So basically I'll take a couple of days and then it's all me and you. I'll stay at the wagon wheel till Thursday. Yeah, or the day's in for a week. Yeah. Yeah. To make it look good. Alls I need is for my baby not to worry and leave everything else up to me. I got it. I got this. I am a very, very seasoned murderer. I'll take care of this. I just wrote my whole plan down and mailed it to you. Through the jail, by the way, which can monitor anything anyway. And even if they don't, then it's in a fucking, this is an address or drawer in the house of the murder scene. That you gave in writing permission to the police to search. You knew. And you said, you need to catch that bastard. Yeah. The evidence is upstairs. Wow. So if you go over this, the amount of times you'll no longer have to worry about making no more excuses to him. Okay, right there, that's pretty incriminating. That's pretty incriminating. Then the next thing, because he'll no longer be with us, that's very incriminating. Then he adds a date to it to really seal it in there, to sear the flavor in, you know? You gotta sear it real good. And if there was a question that maybe they're gonna give him a trip, they're gonna pay for him to leave, no, there's a sketch of his fucking tombstone. It's a sketch of that. Yeah, then she says, and we'll be me and you completely. Okay, yeah, maybe it's after that, that's when he gets out of jail, they're gonna run away together. Then he just doubles down, hey, Donna, just think, come 12, 11, you'll be waking up to me. Or maybe we'll let things cool down for a couple days to look cool, he says. So, you know, this is how we're also gonna trick the cops, is also a bad way to put it. And then he mentions the funeral. Then after the funeral, when I come home, I'm never leaving. So that just, in case you thought it was just, we're gonna run away together, no, no, no. After the funeral of who? Robert, who will be resting in piss. Resting in piss. This is, I designed the tombstone for him, you can put that in, give that right to the fucking stone cutter, it'll make it perfectly. Oh, holy. Then November comes along here, and they're still writing. Things get into logistics by then. Oh boy. He starts asking her to buy him murder supplies. Oh. That he's gonna need. Okay, here's one from Nate to Donna. Late October, early November, 2001. Okay, quote, well, I see now you know that I'm about my business when I get out as far as our little situation. So that means you're seeing I'm serious about killing your husband now. I'm dead serious, and you know that now. And get me a size large leather gloves, if you, and see if you can find me a ski mask hat, okay? Jesus. Hey, let me, these are the murder supplies I'm gonna need. Basically whatever OJ had, get me that. I'm gonna need that. Some Bruno Mollie is just all the whole deal. I want everything. See if you can find a used Bronco. Is there a used Bronco around? I'll escape in it. Okay, so see if you can find me a ski mask hat. Then he says, and I need them handcuffs you have, and it's mandatory, so get them for me, because the way that I'm gonna do it is gonna be right, okay? Oh boy. So this is, I need murder supplies. I need handcuffs so I can murder him, and then to hide evidence I need some other shit. Yeah, I need anonymity and a way to lock a person down. That is a horrifying letter. Them handcuffs you have, that Don already had. So apparently she has handcuffs. And I think they've probably used them before, it sounds like. Doesn't sound like she's used them for kidnapping. Nope. Then her letter to him, talking about what she bought him, quote, I also went to four stores and finally found your ski mask and boxers and a pair of beautiful fleece lined black leather gloves. Beautiful, they're lovely, you're gonna leave your humans forever. I got two lovely isotone. Oh my God. So then he writes back here, and he says, yes, I'm taking care of that the next night because I told you that I'm tired of living like this when I don't have to. And after that, will you get me a 2002 Cadillac Deville? A brand new Deville? 2001, yeah, this isn't now we wanna be together. He's asking for a specific model and year of a car. Brand new. For this, brand fucking new Cadillac, okay? He said, and. Nets, tears, Cadillac. Oh, the new one, well, it's December of, you know. It's, they're out already, the 2002. Oh, it's been out for three months, but it's still. They're looking good. Yeah. The 2002 you look about. If you get it in December, people go, wow, what is that, a 2001? No, this is next year's model. Yeah. This is a 2002. Surprise doesn't wanna know three. Yeah. So he then says, and even if I gotta come to the house and shoot Robert in his fucking head, you're gonna be with me. My God, add all of these letters up to this. This is bonkers. Is there a public notary that, that's the only way he could have incriminated himself harder. Any harder. Yeah, or if he said, handed it to a guard and said, can you proof read this for me? I'm not gonna spell it. Like this is insanity. What are you talking about? In addition to the 285 letters. There are also, well, there's a lot more, but there are 18 specific recorded phone calls in their own voices that are also saved. Oh boy. This inmates, the phone inmates system, it records ever all the calls automatically. They're kept for at least six months afterwards. Does that, that's got a system of flagging stuff too, right? It's got to. I think there has to be something like that. I think it's mainly they're saved. And then if anything happens, they can go back and look at it. That's crazy. You can't monitor everybody. No, you can't monitor it. For six months. It's not quite. But there should be, today at least, there should be something monitoring it that flags when it hears certain words. Well, I guess a lot of people on these calls are talking in code too. So you wouldn't hear. They're talking, and on top of that too, you know, the prisons are not gonna update their phone systems. You're only getting charged for 85 a minute. So God forbid they could actually, you know what I mean? It's just a scam to make fucking money for this bullshit thing. It's disgusting. That shit is disgusting. Remember what fucking Arpaio was doing? Oh, scumbag. Robbing people's fucking families blind. Terrible shit. So anyway, that's what's going on. Now, the recordings are kept. Nate, despite knowing everything is recorded, called Donna on the prison line at least 18 times that are on the record. Openly discussing the murder. He talked about, he used code. Oh, he did? He said the Robert situation at one point. Our little thing, that thing he would talk about. You know that thing we're gonna do. You know. I did that thing for you. Who do you think shot? Hey, I did that. I took care of that thing for you. That was Pete the killer that said that in Goodfellas. There was Pete the killer that I took care of that thing for. We know what that thing was. I used to do a joke about that way back in the day. You know what it is, Pete the killer. What else could it be? The fuck else would he be doing? So he, this is interesting. Now, this is October 25th, 2001. Nate, I'll be home to you December 9th. All the worries will be over, baby. She just kind of says, okay, he says, the next day out, I'm going to, I already got it in my mind. My mind made up. I'm going to go ahead and do that the next day. Okay. All right. And she says, quote, oh, I just wrote to you that I didn't think you really meant it. Oh boy. He says, what? My mind is made up. My mind is made. I wrote in my letters. You know what I'm saying, but you know, I don't like to talk too much like that. You don't? I like to draw like that. Yeah. And write everything out in longhand. But when I come home, you know what I mean? It's going to be full detail. I'm going to let you know how I'm going to do it and everything. I'm going to do it for sure the next day. Yeah. Dude, like, that is so incriminating. And especially in his own voice. It's amazing. When you go before a jury, it's one thing to have something written down. Because he can even say, I didn't write that. You know, somebody else could have been, when it's someone's own voice and you're looking at them sitting there and you know that voice comes out of their fucking head and you're hearing it, that is so incriminating. It's not good. And their reaction to it has got to be outstanding. Yeah. Like as soon as you press play in court, watching their face as those words come through has got to be so fun. Watch the Saraboon trial and you'll see it. When they play those videos of her with him, imagine what the look on that jury's face will be. No, Zahe talk to me. Zahe talk to me. Fucking yelling at him, telling me smells, fucking screaming in his face. Yeah. Then. Recording him in the suitcase while she's drunk and yelling at him. That's been named, don't wear it out. While he's dying in a suitcase, begging for oxygen. That's been named, don't wear it out. Sarah, I can't breathe. I can't breathe when you're choking me. I can't breathe when you're choking me. I can't breathe when you cheat on me. That's what she said. I can't breathe when you cheat on me. That is not the same lady, I'm sorry. No, no, I mean it, Sarah. I'm in a Samsonite. Yeah, that's how I feel. My heart's in a Samsonite. My heart is zipped up with a combo lock and I don't know. My heart has been beating like a gorilla beats a Samsonite. CSA goes through my thoughts. Have you seen the commercials? Hello, I'm talking to you. Hello? That's my name, don't wear it out. He's already dead and she's kicking the suitcase. I'm talking to you, do you remember that commercial? Hello? Hello? Ah, she's the worst. So that's what this reminds me of though. Cause everyone in court, I didn't get to see the jury obviously, but everyone in the court was like, like looking at her like, oh, you're a monster. So, okay, in this conversation that is, okay, this is November 8th, Nate tells Donna that he wanted Robert to see Donna performing oral sex on Nate before he kills Robert. So now it's worse. I want you to blow me in front of him before I murder him. I need him to see why. I really want to be a real jerk here. I really want to be a jerk here. I need to humiliate him. Even though there's no beef with them. No. Okay. Robert doesn't even know this is happening, does he? No idea, none at all. He's just working every day, has no fucking idea. So anyway, that's the play. One of his plans is forced Donna to blow him in front of Robert. Well, not for her, cause she'd be voluntarily blowing him. Forced Robert to watch her consensually blowing him. And before he goes away is a funny thing too, like he's going to leave. Then late November, 2001, there's a little debate here. They're getting a plan, but Donna's getting nervous about it. She's nervous about leaving evidence behind. So they're talking about how not to leave forensic evidence behind. Yeah, that's a good concern. And it's 2001. So law and order has been on for like 12 years. People are know a little more. The OJ happened in 96. That was a lesson in forensics and DNA and shit and how not to collect it. CSI is three years in by now, right? Is it 2001? I think it's around when CSI started. I think it came out like 99. Maybe, that's possible. It's very possible. But all those shows kind of things are becoming popular. This is becoming where people know stuff. So this is late November, 2001. Okay, Nate says, you know what I'm saying? The next day after, you know what I told you I wanted to do, right? And Donna says, I'm afraid, Nate. Yeah. And Nate says, what you man? I don't know what that is. What you man? I think it means what you mean? Is it typed? Maybe what you mean? This is the transcript for court. It's probably what you mean. Maybe, maybe. Yeah, somebody might have mis transcribed it. But then Donna says, I can't afford to lose you. I cannot lose you. Like I will kill myself. Oh. This is a man, she told the cops she did not remember. Right. So Nate says, just forget about it, man. By the way, calling a 58 year old woman man is just weird to me. It's just strange. He's calling her man? Man, he keeps calling her. Just forget about it, man. When a person man knows what he's doing, man. That's like Jinxing, man. That's what he called her man. Four times in one sentence. Man. It's like Jinxing, man. It's like Jinxing, man. But Donna says then, but what was the story with the trunk and handcuffs? That's too involved. So they've come up with multiple scenarios. He's like taking them away from the scene in the trunk. Yeah. So then Nate says, just, just, just leave it alone, all right? And Donna said, it's too much involved. You're gonna leave hair. You're gonna leave prints. You're gonna, so then Nate says, leave it alone, man. Leave it alone, all right? Come on, man. This ain't Perry Mason, man. It's worse. Cops now have forensics and shit. Perry Mason didn't have shit. He just had to yell at someone till they admitted it. This is crazy. Perry Mason was a lawyer, wasn't he? He was a lawyer who would, he would take the case apart and then get the real murderer to admit it on the stand while his clients, that's not this. Nate, this is much deeper than Perry Mason. Yeah, Perry Mason didn't have a forensics team. Right. Perry just yelled at people until he got the logistics right in his head. And this guy's like, I'll get away with it. I'll be Perry Mason, man. Come on, forensics and hair and shit. Who cares? Perry Mason ain't shit. Perry Mason ain't shit. So then Donna says, I don't wanna know anything about it ever. No, don't tell me any of it. Do what you need to do, but leave me the fuck out of it, basically. So there's more incriminating shit. Oh, yeah, they keep talking. Oh, they can't stop. Okay. November 24th, 2001. Nate's trying to ease Donna's, you know, anxieties about this whole thing. Calm her down. He attempts to reassure her about DNA, by the way. Now he is a forensics expert. What, what's he gonna say? Let's find out what Nate thinks, how Nate thinks forensics work. The morning thinks Perry Mason deals with forensics, so that's one thing. First of all, he's not scared of Perry Mason. No. That's wild. Yeah, sorry, nevermind, I'll just get into this. Okay, November 24th, 2001. Mm-hmm. Okay. Nate says, man, we really gonna talk when I come home, okay? Yeah. Stop calling her man, please, please. He's not gonna do it. It's, it would be less creepy if he called her ma'am as he was fucking her. This is creepy. So she says, okay, then Nate says, especially about our, that situation, man, you know? Yeah. And she says, yeah. And he says, I mean, it just, you know, you get too nervous at times. That's all the deal is. You're tripping. You're nervous, you can't get away with murder? What a pussy. Yeah. You don't think this thing that we've planned out and we have in writing and several things, you don't think, okay, all right. She says, yeah, I know it's part of my nature. I don't know. She's the nervous grandmotherly type. What do you expect? I'm not a murderer. So he says, quote, and then you said DNA. The only way they can do a DNA is if they got the other persons, you know what I'm saying? So he's saying they'd have to have his DNA ready to know that it was his DNA. Oh, he's so dumb. He doesn't know shit. He said, if they got the person and the hair, cause they just, cause they can't just take no hair and say this is such and such as hair, the laws that we got in the state of Ohio and the laws from everywhere else, I mean, they way different. And everywhere else. He's saying the laws of the state of Ohio are way different from everywhere else. And there they'll never be able to match up a hair forensically to him. They can't, he's saying they can't just pick up a hair and go, that looks like Nate's hair and go find him. Only way they could do a DNA. Yeah. You see. A DNA. A DNA. A DNA. His thoughts are they're never gonna know he exists. That's his thought. So how would they match it up to me? They'd need to get my shit to match it up. And if they don't know I exist, how the fuck they gonna get my shit essentially? They'd have to know that you and I talk 285 letters at a clip. While they're saying this on a recorded jail call, literally being taped. Under his prison ID number, right? Cause you've got to. You have to sign in through your shit. Yeah. Cause you have accounts and all that kind of shit. So the laws that we got in the state of Ohio and the laws from everywhere else, I mean they way different. Yeah. So he's an expert in Ohio forensic law, this guy. And what's admissible and everything. Why is not afraid of Perry Mason? It's not afraid of Perry. Let Perry Mason try to talk to me. I'll let them all fucking know what's up. So Donna says, really? Yeah. Rather than going, are you a moron? She says, really? She's very easy to convince. She's very easy. And he says, hell yeah. He says, we'll talk about it when I come home, Donna. Okay, I don't want to talk about it over the phone. You already did. What's the fucking point? You might as well videotape the whole murder at this point. You've already talked, I don't want to talk about it on the phone. Okay, sorry. Don't stop now. Wow, he's explaining forensic science, fucking up how it works, fucking up what the laws are. He has nothing. And he says, DNA only works if they have a sample from the person to compare it to. And if they have your hair and the laws and state of Ohio, he's all fucked up, everything's wrong. Ohio won't let them have my hair. No, they won't. They'll stand in the way. Ohio says you cannot take a man's hair from him if he doesn't want him to. That's it. December 8th, 2001. This is all post-9-11 too. You think it's just so much going on. It's still smoldering, fuck. It's still on fire. So was no one else distracted by that? Maybe I was a little too distracted by that, but I wasn't setting up any murder plots for at least three, four months after 9-11. It was very distracting. It doesn't even seem like he's heard yet. No, I don't think he has. He's been in jail the whole time that it happened. He was in jail. So I think maybe they didn't tell him in there. It's like goodfellas. They didn't go up there and tell you, I don't shine shoes no more. I don't know if you know, they didn't go up there and tell you, but I don't shine shoes. Those towers don't stand no more. They don't stand no more. I don't know if they went up there and didn't tell you about it, but December 8th, 2001. Day before Nate gets out, 24 hours before that here. This is the last recorded call between them. You're getting out the next day. Just shut the fuck up and wait till you're in person. Nope, one more. And it's the dumbest one of all almost here. Okay, he says, I got to do this, Donna. I got to. And she says, I don't know, kind of hems and haws. He says, just consider it a done deal. Only thing I'm gonna need is one thing. She says, what? And he says, I just need to be in that house when he come home. Oh my God, dude. That's dude, it's so bad. It's so bad. So bad. All I'm gonna need is one thing. What's that? To be within inches of him. Yeah, to be able to jump out at him in his own home, unsuspectingly in the dark. That's all I need. It's gonna be fine. She says, oh no. And he says, baby, it ain't gonna happen in the house. He's trying to convince her I need to be there, but I'll get him somewhere so it won't happen because you don't wanna ruin the, they're gonna live there together. I mean, what are we talking about? I don't have to mop. I don't wanna have blood stains on my floor when I get out of here. So she says, yeah, he says, it ain't gonna happen in the house. It ain't gonna happen in the house, man, I promise you. Man, he said, I just need to be in there, man. It ain't gonna happen in the house, man. I mean, I ain't gonna jeopardize that, man. Not that man like Robert. I ain't gonna jeopardize that, meaning the house, common man, you, your man, Donna. And she says, well, let's not talk about it now. Right. Yeah, and he says, okay, we'll talk, we'll, I'll just wait until tomorrow. Yes, stupid. Tomorrow. Tomorrow, you're getting out. And you can talk to her all you want in the privacy of an automobile when you get out of there. Okay. Now, there was another thing here, December 6th, 2001. Three days before he got out. This isn't a recorded call, but Donna starts prepping three days before he gets out. She drives to the Wagon Wheel Motel in Boardman, Ohio, about 20 minutes south of Helen Township, and she reserves a room, a very specific room, the Jacuzzi Suite. Ah, Jesus. Imagine going in the Jacuzzi at the Wagon Wheel Motel. It's got carpet around it. Oh, you know it does. Soaking wet, nasty carpet. 50-year-old carpet. Jacuzzi Suite, she books there and pays for it. She puts the reservation in Nathaniel Jackson's name. So it's his name. Okay. And this is three days before he gets out. So obviously he didn't go there and pay for it. She did. Okay. December 9th, 2001, it's get out day. Oh boy. Nathaniel is released from prison and grafted in Ohio, about 90 miles northwest of Youngstown. Donna Roberts takes her car. It's about an hour and a half trip to pick him up. She picks him up in broad daylight. I mean, not hiding anything here. Nope. She drives him back down to the area here. She tells police that she dropped him off at a house on Wert Street, W-I-R-T Street, Wert Street, which is a real street on the south side of Youngstown that Roberts car was found three blocks away from, as a matter of fact. This is where Nate's friends live. But she tells the cops, I just dropped him off and went home. But that's not a lie. They went to the Wagon Wheel Motel's Jacuzzi Suite on December 9th and had all sorts of disgusting, young man on senior citizen jacuzzi sex. Yeah. Which is good for her because it'll keep all of her hips and all of her sore muscles in place. Yeah, the jets on the muscles probably help. Soothe her. Yeah. So they spent the night together, all of that shit. So obviously she was lying to the cops about everything there. Then December 10th, 2001, the day before the murder, day after he gets out, they make all sorts of public appearances together. Really? They're just going around everywhere together. And they stand out because they are, it's not that they're an interracial couple, that's fine. They're 30 years apart from each other. They don't look like they go together. They don't look like they go together. It would be like if I was walking around with like a 12 year old Asian girl, you go, what's your connection to this kid? And they'd arrest me when it would be rightfully so. It's just weird. So anyway, it's a strange thing here. She says that, this is the, oh yes, I forgot about him. Just keep remembering, oh yeah, him. Oh yeah. So she's seen here two days before the murder at a Greyhound bus terminal there, seen kissing and talking with another man right near the terminal before Robert arrived for work. That's on the 10th. At his job. At his job, where they own and all the employees know them. No, no, yeah. Why would she think that this is like so blatant, openly making out outside of a bus station, which number one is disgusting. It's trash. That's trash. Making out at a bus station? That's either, I don't know if I'm ever gonna see you again or oh my God, I can't believe this. I thought I'd never see you again. Yeah. It's like, ma'am, you get modern maturity magazine. You don't do this. This is not modern or mature, what you're doing right now. This is wrong. So they also, the same day, over her, Donna asked Robert for $3,000, which she refused and that was the day she gave Robert the dirty look and was like trembling and so mad. Right. December 11th is the day of the murder. We'll run down late morning, early evening. Donna and Nate continued to be seen around together, from the, you know, carrying over from the day before. Witnesses spot them at various spots throughout town during the day. 430 PM, Greyhound bus driver, Jim McCoy sees Robert working the terminal. McCoy leaves later on. He drives his bus to the Warren Terminal, sees Donna and Nathaniel together. And Nathaniel said to him that we were trying to get out of here. About 6 PM, Donna and Nate go to the Red Lobster in Niles, Ohio. Shrimp Fest is back, everybody, let's do it. Yeah. Yeah, the waitress at the Red Lobster will identify both of them. She said, yeah, it was the only old white lady, young black man couple I had the whole night. Really easy to remember. Or really all week. You know, I can't remember the last one to be honest. I don't remember the last one to be honest. I can't even think of a business meeting. They're not in the same, it's a strange thing. So Red Lobster, they pay their bill at 6.43 PM and leave. There is a, and they keep, Donna keeps the receipt. She's nice that she keeps, she's a bookkeeper. That's what she does. Yeah. About 9 AM, Robert or 9 PM, I'm sorry, Robert tells the on duty security guard at the Youngstown bus terminal that he's leaving for the evening. He says, I'm going home. Yeah. I'm out of there. So he takes off about 9.30 PM, a neighbor who lives on Old State Route 82, which is the road near Donna and Robert's house, observes Donna driving her car very slowly past the house alone with no other traffic on the road. Just creeping, checking on it. The, which is very weird. Kacen the joint here. So they, her own joint. Her own joint. And they think that maybe she was waiting for some kind of signal from Nate or just, or just scoping it out because she's curious and stupid. Then 9.45 PM through 11.44 PM. Here we go. Now we have cell phone records pulled from the carriers showing that during this two hour window between 9.45 PM and 11.44 PM, Donna Roberts's two cell phones were calling each other almost constantly. Oh, really? She's got two phones. Yeah. One cell phone was with Donna in her car. The other cell phone was the one that she, Nate quote, borrowed from her. That's the one that she's public about here. So they were going back and forth, back and forth. So, and Donna had lied about that to the cops. He said, oh, I don't know. Nate just must have borrowed my phone. Meanwhile, she was in contact with him over and over and over and over again for a two hour period. Oh yeah, him, yeah. Yeah. She said, she just went shopping that night. They said, well, what'd you shop for? She said, quote, just normal shopping. What? Food, shirts, fucking lawn equipment. What are you shopping for? Yeah, I don't know what that means. The cell tower data though says that Donna and Nate were in two different locations, both moving, calling each other every few minutes for two straight hours over the time when Robert was being murdered in the kitchen. So he's like calling her and be like, yeah, he's not here yet. He's not here yet. Oh, shit, here it comes. Oh, his car, I'll call you back when I'm done murdering him. His car's coming into the garage now and click, I don't know. Or maybe he- He's in the garage now. Yeah. I'll call you right back. Maybe he called her to let her listen to the murder. Ooh, gross. That's possible too. We don't know. We'll never know. Approximately 11 33 PM, Donna shows up at the Days Inn in Boardman all by herself. She paces around the lobby. The staff remembered her weird antsy demeanor. And then reserves a room for a week. This is when she reserves a room for a week. Books and prepays for the hotel for seven days. Time stamp of 11 33 PM. Oh. So, okay. The Days Inn is about 20 minutes south by the way. Later on, Nate's fingerprints will be lifted from all over the inside of this hotel room. And so it's interesting. So it's weird that it's strange. Then after she books the room at 11 33 PM, she drives a 20 minutes back to her house and by 12 01, she's found Robert and is on the phone with 911. Oh. So that's the timeline. She came from a Days Inn, reserving a room for a week right to her house to find the body. And she was talking to Nate a million times. Then the police learned that, holy shit, Robert's got $550,000 of life insurance that goes right to fucking Donna. Uh-oh. Because at first they're like, yeah, there's motivation, but he doesn't seem to be real on top of her about like affairs and shit. Seems like if she wants to have an affair, she can have one. She allowed, yeah. Or whatever, but you know, wanting to be with a guy is a motivation, but it's, you know, add $550,000 to make a new start with. Now you're talking about a whole different thing now. A man's dead and you are gifted over half a million dollars. That's, ooh. That's a lot. So then at 3 38 AM is the phantom phone call also. The police are still there. The body had been removed, but you know, they're still doing crime scene shit. Monroe picked up the pause on the other end and then the hang up and that was Donna's cell phone. So they were like, what the fuck? So she's at her brother's house, allegedly sleeping. Oh. So they were like, who's calling Donna's house at 3 38 in the morning? Well, they're there processing the murder scene. Then they decide, hey, that day's in. Since they were there for a few days and we know Nate was there because his fingerprints are everywhere, let's search all around that shit just in case. Just really go through it with a fine tooth comb. What they find is they go out in the dumpster and find a treasure trove here. Okay. They get, number one is fingerprints from the inside of the room, which we know about. Also recovered a garbage bag in the dumpster at the motel that came from the room. The bag contains a bottle of peroxide, used bandages and gauze with blood all over them. Right, what? That we'll find out later is consistent with Nate Jackson's DNA. What happened, Nate? Bandages soaked in his own blood that would be matched to him with a frequency of one in 45 quadillion, quintillion, sorry. That's five billion trillion, what is that? That's five times that, yeah. Holy. Billion, billion, or I'm sorry, a million trillion, or million billion trillion, quadrillion, quintillion. Quintarillion, that's too many. That's too many. It's unfathomable, it's so much. It's unfathomable, yeah. The planet will be around for 10,000 more years and not many people will not live on it. That's a thousand trillion, right? That's 10,000 trillion. Yeah, I was gonna say, that's a bulk bag. That would be a crazy number. That would be what a quadrillion is, this is a quintillion. So they also do testing on Robert's car that they found in the middle of nowhere to determine that the blood on the visor contains a mixture consistent with both Robert Fingerhot and Nate Jackson's DNAs. Now their bloods are intermixed in the same place, which means you were there, that's not good. You're both bleeding at the same time together. Together, on top of each other. Blood recovered from the trunk release of the car indicated a DNA mixture with a major profile consistent with Nate and a minor profile consistent with Robert, not good. So mostly his blood, meaning he's bleeding and Rob's blood is in it and he touched something. That's good. He touched the trunk release. Oh boy. So December 20th, no one's in handcuffs yet, some of them. No. But they're trying to see here because Donna is insisting, I don't know what you're talking about. So they're gonna see, okay, Donna, you know what you're talking about, maybe we can kind of bust them both at the same time. They decided here that she was a witness or that she's a suspect, obviously. They have the phone records, the letters, all this type of shit. So they say, okay, basically this is either you're gonna get a confession or a denial that looks worse. So they asked Donna, will you do something for us, the police, because we wanna catch who murdered your husband. Do something for me. We are suspecting that guy, Nate. Oh. We're going out with. So will you do something, call Nate and we'll record it and try to get him to say incriminating shit. Now imagine the thoughts dancing in her fucking head when you're asked that. Fuck, okay, I gotta call him. I'm trying to save my own ass, but at the same time, I don't really wanna incriminate him because then he can incriminate me. Fuck, this is a lot. Sharon Stone in casino. Trying to call her friend and corroborate the salad. Yeah, yeah. And then at the same, totally. And then at the same fucking time from all this, like, this is just a lot. Like, she's trying to do this and at the same time, she's gotta be thinking, how have they not, they searched everything. Have they read all the letters? Right. That's not good. You know what I mean? She's gotta be thinking that this has to be a trap for her too. That's what I mean. It's crazy. So they're like, what the fuck? So they use a controlled call, get the suspect on the line, try to get them to incriminate themselves. She agrees, cause she has no choice. So they give her a list of specific questions they want them to ask. They want her to ask Nate. Basically of what happened that night, tell me specifics of what happened. Oh shit. I wanna know about it basically. Now, it's... And don't tip him off that cops are on the phone. Exactly. But talk about shit. He's going to say, fuck you mean, baby. Yeah, talk about shit that they've probably discussed in detail sometime in the previous nine days. You know what I mean? So that's what's crazy. So although I don't know how much she's been able to talk to him because there's, you know, they're trying to hide it. He's not gonna, he's gonna know though. He's going to know. Well, yeah, they, Donna, the way they put it, the police said that Donna quote, failed to ask Jackson the critical questions that police had instructed her to ask. She just didn't do what she was told. You can't do it. Yeah, she fed him softball questions and they said she was basically covering for him and also saying shit that kind of was... Coded. Not blatantly, but almost like, if he had any inkling that the cops might be there, she was trying to kind of be like, tipping him off about it, not to talk. Well, that's a fucked situation because if she asks him those questions that they want her to ask, he's gonna be like, what are you talking about? You know what happened? You're, we both, we killed him. Yeah. What the fuck? And it's gonna incriminate her too. That's why she can't ask the questions. Exactly. That's, I mean, she's in a shit mess right now. This is so fucked. She's so fucked. Imagine her heart beating. Oh, sure, I'll call him and you're calling. And this is like being in the principal's office and selling them to call your mom at work. You know what I mean? This is worse though. Yeah, like she's gonna shit her pants, Jack. She's gonna be pissed. It's very soon anyway. She'll be shitting her pants soon anyway, but it could happen from this. Now, December 21st, 2001, Donna is at home at the murder house at this point. 10 days after, cops come up and arrest her. They arrest her for murder. They said she doesn't resist or even seem surprised. She's like, what? What do you mean? She's like, what took you so long? And then she took a drag of the cigarette. I wrote it down. I'm sorry, guys. I fucked up. Robert's son, Michael said, when my father was murdered, we didn't even know about it until after he'd been buried. What? She didn't tell, and I'm sorry, the cops should fucking tell them too. If the cops suspect, if the cops suspect. Yeah, they suspect that, yeah. They gotta talk to the rest. Next of kin, besides the person you think murdered him. Yeah, these people, they weren't notified that he was even dead, nevermind at a funeral. Yeah, if you've got a suspicion, I guess you tell somebody and that they, when they coordinate the funeral or however you're gonna dispose of the remains, you probably assume they're gonna tell everybody they can to make themselves look less guilty. I guess. But also you think the cops would wanna talk to Michael. What's the background on this relationship? This is interesting, yeah. Like who the fuck wouldn't call the son to find out, especially when it first happened, you'd wanna talk to everybody close to him and find out what's up. You'd think the son would be one of the people. Does he have any business associates he doesn't like? He's been talking about, it's just Donna suspicious. Yeah, do you know if she's cheating on her? Exactly, do you have any suspicions about Donna? Do you think that she's this or whatever the fuck, but they don't even talk to him? That's fascinating. He said when my father was murdered, we didn't even know about it till after he was buried. She put him in a pine box. Didn't even give him a good funeral. No, she wants to keep all the money. Fuck, it weighs me on it. It's $550 grand in insurance. Yeah. That's what she's doing. When the detective said your dad's dead, my first thought was Donna. Okay, so Nate is arrested as well. Wow. They raided the Wurt Street house, house where his friends lived where he was hiding out, and he had a bandage wrapped around his left index finger, which was obviously injured. Yeah. Now, they find inside this house a piece of a black leather glove. Why? There was a piece of the glove they'd find in the house. They found the gloves, but the index finger of the left glove had been torn off and there was a red substance, it was blood near the tear. So it had been torn off like that. That's how his finger got hurt. It probably was the one that was in the trigger and it probably got wrapped up in an argument or in the fight in the scuffle. Very possible. It's on his left hand. I don't know if he's left-handed or not, whatever it is, but that's possible, because there'd have to be something that could cause that kind of thing. Right. We'll get to it though. It gets weirder here. So this isn't good. She had written about the gloves and now they found the gloves, fleece-lined black gloves, same one she bought, same thing. The very beautiful, as she put it, beautiful fleece-lined gloves. Not good. Now also a ski mask hat also, they said it's never been recovered, any ski mask hat. Now the handcuffs are mentioned in the letters, but they don't appear to have been used during the actual murder. They couldn't find any marks on the wrists or anything like that. Probably because Robert fought back too hard for the handcuff plan to work. He probably thought he'd pop up, put the gun on him and said, you know, and he would act like he was getting arrested. Yeah, put your hands behind your back and I'm gonna cuff you. And Robert said, we're in my garage. You're not a cop, I'm fighting, you fuck you. So they also have the receipt that Donham mailed to him in prison because he has the receipt for the gloves. They also found a pair of sneakers that match size and shred pattern perfectly to the footprints in the house in the blood. Oh no. Remember those footprints? That's not good. So they bring Nate in and sit him down. Okay, Nate, you've been out of jail 12 days, you fucking idiot. Less than a fortnight, man. How did you do it? You've already banged an old lady and killed a guy. It's been a busy week for you. You've been in a jacuzzi tub. Yeah, and 50, whatever's not an old lady, but when you're 27, anybody over 35 is an old lady. You know what I mean? Anybody over 40 is like ancient when you're in your 20s. Certainly, I thought, yeah. Yeah, so during Nate's interrogation here, he said that he and Robert had known each other for a couple of years. Okay. His first words when they sat him down was, quote, I just didn't mean to do it, man. Oh boy. That's not good. No. Do what, man? Yeah. I just didn't mean to do it. He kept saying that. I just didn't mean to do it, man. Just didn't mean to do it. They said, so you knew Robert? He said, yeah, we knew each other for a couple of years. And they said, well, when's the last time you saw him? And he said, the day he got killed on the 11th. Uh-oh. But earlier in the day, I didn't see him late. No, no, earlier than that, I sold him some weed earlier that day. Oh. So he's like, you got out of jail on the 9th and by the 11th, you had a fucking- You've already got a racket going? You've already got enough weed to sell? Like, you've already gathered up, you know, a distribution amount of weed here? What's going on? He said that Robert had given him a ride back to Robert's own house, so Nate could quote, chill before he started a job at the bus terminal the next day. Now, like we said, Robert is known to hire ex-convicts. True, yeah. And everyone knows that. So that's Nate's story is I was hanging out with Robert because he was gonna hire me. So he brought me to his own house to chill. To chill? Well, you know, wait for the next day. He said once they got inside, Robert started yelling at him and throwing racial slurs at him like crazy. Wouldn't stop dropping the N word on him. Called me lazy, yeah. Yeah, amongst other things. Yeah, but you know. Amongst other letters. And this, by the way, goes, everybody says, Robert's never used a racial slur in his life because he's not, his son said he's the least prejudice person you're ever gonna meet. That's just not what he's about. He's a kind man. Well, he goes the opposite way. He tries to take people in basically and you know, whatever. So, and also a bunch of other disparaging things. He said, then Robert pulled a revolver on him. It's not enough that I call you the N word. I need to point a gun in your face too. So he pulled a revolver on him and he said, there was a struggle for the revolver. And that's how Nate's finger got fucked up. He got shot in the finger during the struggle. Oh. Yeah. So Nate said he wrestled the gun away from Robert and Nate shot Robert twice during the tussle, as he put it. Though he wasn't sure where and, he wasn't sure where he shot Robert and he didn't, and whether he didn't know whether Robert was still breathing when Nate ran out and took Robert's car and took off. I mean, you shoot somebody in the top of the head. You know they're not breathing. Nope, that's a bad story. First of all, he said he only shot him twice. Right. He shot him three times. Three times. Where'd the second gun come from? Right. That's the other thing. What, where'd the second gun? That means you brought a gun as a guy that just got out of prison. Yep. You had a firearm after you've been out for a felony. So that's not, and you were selling weed with a firearm too, which is even more charges. So. I would like to say I did not murder a man, but I could have and I was selling weed. And I was selling weed because I did have a gun. Yeah. It wasn't his house, but he said he was still breathing when he left, which probably is not true, judging by the shot to the head. Yeah, there's no way. So yeah, this is the finger that's fucked up as the missing glove. Finger, it's all in there. And the glove has his blood in it, it all matches up there. So what's wrong with Nate's story here? Well, number one, three shots, not twice. Okay. Second, the bullets were fired from a different gun than the 38 found by the body. That was a fully loaded revolver found next to Robert's body. So Robert never pulled a revolver, or even if he did, he certainly never had a chance to use it. Exactly. Third, how would Robert have shot Nate in the finger with a gun that was found un-fired? Right. How does that work? The bullet that hit Nate's finger probably came from the same gun that killed Robert, meaning it was Nate's own gun. Nate either accidentally shot himself during the assault or shot through the glove while attacking Robert. That's probably true. That's very easily could happen. If he's wrestling around with it. And yeah. Also, Nate had spent the previous three months writing letters and saying he was gonna murder Robert as soon as he got out. So that's not one, that's not good here. And yeah, and why does a ski, why would he need a ski mask? That makes no sense. Right. What do you need that if you're about to murder a man? Yeah. And also the saying he had approached Robert about getting a job at the Youngstown bus terminal. Yeah. And they're saying, well, we know that he hires recently released felons, but he's gonna ask his girlfriend's husband for a job. That seems risky. Yeah. That seems very odd. And bring a gun to do it? And bring a gun to do it. Just in case the interview, I've never had an interview go that bad for a job. Or I had to fucking, I had to pull steel at the end of that shit and be like, what's up, mother? No, I'm backing out. You fucking stay where you're sitting. I'm backing out of here. That's never happened. It's 725 an hour. And I have fucking failed plenty of interviews. I'm not going any lower, bitch. No. No, I will not clean the fucking, the oil that we fry shit in. No, that's where I draw the line. So, Nate is asked at this point, hey, this is self-defense. And Nate's like, absolutely total self-defense. And they said, do us a favor. We're gonna videotape it. I'd like you to, this is just audio recorded. Yeah. You'd like to do a videotape. Okay. You should let us know what's going on. Let's do it again. Yeah. Nate pauses and said that, no, I'm through talking. I'm done. And then said, this is amazing. I don't have time to just keep going over this over and over again. Ah. I don't have time. Where the fuck do you have to be? You just confessed to killing a man, whether in self-defense or not, you're gonna be here for quite a while. I got shit to do. Your schedule is not important. Yeah. So this is interesting. Now this is from the newspaper, they say, in the midst of a long and rambling statement on videotape, Jackson says, quote, I talked to a lawyer or something. Then later says, we just sum it up like I said, man, when I talk to my lawyer, man, you're gonna know what I'm saying. Okay. So that's what he says. Now, under the Fifth Amendment though, you must clearly ask for, you can't just mention the word lawyer. We see this all the time where people try to get out of statements by saying, I said maybe I need a lawyer. Right. Well, that's not, I won't answer questions without my lawyer. Yeah, I want a lawyer, you have to say. Not answering any more questions. It has to be very clear. So the officers just continued to ask questions and he continued to answer them. Right. And making himself look incredibly guilty. Now, you have two people that look real fucking guilty at this point. Very bad. Nate is, they're gonna have both go to trial, by the way. Oh. Which is crazy. Neither of them are talking. Neither of them are flipping on each other. Neither of them are making a deal. They say they have enough evidence where they don't want to make a deal with either one of them. They're gonna- We don't need a deal. Unless you want to just plead guilty to everything and get the maximum, we're not making any deal with you. Right. If you just want to get life in prison and we'll take the death penalty off the table, then go ahead. Yeah. But they don't want to do that because they want the death penalty on the table. They do. They do. So, Nate is, both of them are charged with two counts of aggravated murder. Here, both counts contain two death specific, specifications pursuant to the law here. One charging aggravated murder during the commission of an aggravated burglary. One charging aggravated murder during the commission of an aggravated robbery. Took the car. Death penalty, shit. And plain and simple. So, the state's strategy at trial for Nate, Nate's trial is first, is show the letters. Because for them, they have DNA that he was there. They have everything. He can't believe they got the DNA. It's shocking. Show the letters, let them hear all the jail recordings, let them watch the videotape, let them listen to the confession from the interrogation, present DNA, show them fingerprint evidence. It's like every form of evidence from like the beginning of time until, you know, modern times, they have everything from witnesses showing where they were to DNA, placing them within a quintillion of what the fuck, you know, of people there. Also, here's a confession of a man saying he's gonna, that he murdered a man. And here's a letter from the day before saying he's gonna go murder this man. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it so we can be together. So they also present Donna's statements. Yeah. Saying that she barely remembered him and all that kind of shit. So, they said this is bullshit and the prosecution says that Nate in writing says he was gonna come to the house and shoot Robert in the fucking head. In writing, he said that. And then he came to the house and guess what he did? He shot that man in the fucking head. In the fucking head. The defense is just self-defense. That's what they say. They put out in the videotape statement, they argue that Nate's, you know, whole shit here, while it doesn't look good, the letters that he was sending from jail, they don't look great. But they're just the venting of a frustrated lover. They don't actually represent a plan. They're just wishful thinking. It's a man that's just frustrated, James. Nevermind the fact that the plan actually happened and he's covered in DNA, that doesn't matter. Calm down, he's a very frustrated man. We'll get to that later. Lover, not man, lover. Yeah, frustrated lover. They argue that the planning conversations were mostly Donna's idea and Nate was more or less going along the Satisfy, which if you listen to the recordings, it's kind of the opposite. She seems involved, but he seems like, yo, I can't wait to do this. And she's like not wanting to talk about it on the phone. Baby, just calm down. I got this, man. Calm down. So they emphasize that Nate was the one who got physically wounded, the finger injury. And that the timing of the killing, rather than at some remote location with a trunk and handcuffs, suggests the plan wasn't the plan. And Nate was just reacting in the moment. They said that they might've made all these plans, but that's not the plan that came to fruition. They didn't say, I'm gonna get shot in the finger and then I'm gonna shoot this guy and run away. That's not the plan. So it's obvious. Now the state's response is, who fucking cares? Yeah, sometimes plans get fucked up. Letters, DNA mixed together, intermingling. Shut the fuck up. They said, even if you believe every word of the defense, believe him. Go ahead, believe every word that the original plan changed and there was a struggle in the house. Nate still came into Robert's home. The husband of the woman he's having an affair with armed while Robert was not home and waited for him to come home. He was lying in wait for a man to come in the goddamn door. They said that by himself with the gun, with the gloves, with the letters, that's aggravated burglary right there. If no one dies. They said, and killing Robert in the course of an aggravated burglary is felony murder. Felony murder with prior calculation and designed is a capital aggravated murder. This is a death penalty case and fuck him is what they say. So that's what they present. All of the evidence that we just told you. The verdict comes in here. He is found guilty of aggravated murder with both death penalty specifications. Everything just cleared the boards there. During sentencing, doesn't help much either. Not a lot of mitigating here. They say, you sir, may fuck off death penalty for Nate. They give him the death penalty. Now they bring Donna up. Very few women in their late 50s get sentenced to death. True. This just doesn't happen. We generally as a society don't look at a woman with beginning stages of osteoporosis and say she's a threat to society forever. We need to kill her. We bought Activia. Yeah, this lady writes down whatever Jamie Lee Curtis tells her makes her poop better. She's like, what's that? That's a lot. Say again, Jamie. Say again, because I'm getting some, woohoo, yeah. Post-menopause, I gotta tell you that really. So Donna's trial, exact same charges. Everything's the same. She's going to trial. She's going to trial. She asks for a change of venue. Begging. Because of not only all the publicity from the case, but then Nate's trial just happened there too. So anyone who didn't hear about it before, they certainly know about it now. And the judge goes, I don't think so. I think we're good here. I think we'll hang, yeah. And it's, by the way, the same judge that did Nate's case. So we know what his predilection is for here. So, okay. First of all, how crazy is Donna? Well, let's find out how crazy Donna is, all right? This is Michael, Michael Fingerhunt, the son. Mikey Fingers over here, they call him in the mob. So Mikey Fingers here, Robert's son, this poor guy. Jesus Christ, he didn't even know his, that's horrible. Didn't even get to lay his father to rest. It's so fucked. He didn't even get to see him go in the ground. He didn't get to put him in a decent coffin like that. Didn't even know. Until they got dead. He didn't even know he was dead. Yeah. Wow. He said that Donna Roberts was, quote, evil and manipulative. He said during the trial, he was there, Donna talked to him, turned around and talked to Michael, and pointed out the news media in the courtroom, looked at Robert, not only the news media, but everybody else that was in the courtroom and the whole gallery, looked at Robert's son, Michael, and said, they're all here for me, Michael. Oh, yeah. That, like, to support me, she put it. They're all here to support me. Why aren't you? So Michael said that he looked at her and said, they're all here for me. That's who all these people are here for. The victim, not you, stupid. She's like, all these people here to watch, they're all here for me. No. They're here to make sure you go to jail forever, you fucking idiot. But that's how crazy she is. She looked to the victim's son and said, they're all here for me, Michael. What kind of a sick lunatic says that? The lunatic, really. The narcissistic maniac. And he hates, he said, I've known her for 40 fucking years. She's a psychopath. I know her. She's nuts. He said in, like, 2020s, like, she's a fucking whack job. So there's also a motion to suppress the evidence. Because she said it was okay to search. She argues that the police exceeded the scope of her consent to search the home during the investigation of the murder and that the trial court aired in failing to suppress her letters to Jackson, which she wanted suppressed and they're not here. They're doing that. They were originally let in. She's appealing that thing, the pretrial admissions. I don't want the conversation between me and a convicted murderer in my trial. I mean, that sounds bad, right? She contends that a reasonable person would have believed that the police would be searching her house but not a vehicle in the garage that was not at her home at the time of the offense. So that car, she's saying that car wasn't even there when the murder happened. She drove up later. So why would the cops search that car during a search of the property? Because it's here now. And that's where they found the bag. Which is, I gotta give her a lawyer credit. It's a clever attempt. It's not bad, it's a good swing, yeah. It's something, it's better than just, it's not fair. You know what I mean? It's something. But they said, I don't think so. That's ridiculous. The state presents several witnesses who testify that Donna clearly and directly gave police open-ended consent to search the premises. I don't care, get that bastard that killed my robbers, which she said, then signed all the paperwork. She didn't know that we were gonna do it. She did not expect them to get in that car. No, fuck no, yeah. Go ahead, search my house. It's not in there anyway. Several officers testified that they heard, do whatever you have to do to catch the bastard. Uh-huh. All sorts of, another detective said, she heard her say, I don't care what you have to do, I want you to get the person that did this to my Robert. To my Robert. Quote, whatever you have to do, search the whole place. Just find the guy. Uh-huh. This doesn't sound like she's limiting their search in any way. Search here, but not there. And also he further testified that Donna gave him permission to look anywhere on the property to find clues to who murdered her husband. Robert's brother also testified. He said that his sister, oh, I'm sorry, Donna's brother, Robert's is brother, not Robert's brother. God, that's confusing. You have no idea how confusing this was to put together. I can't imagine, really, this is the nightmare. Her brother testified, stating that his sister was very cooperative with police and did not rebuff them in any way. According to the brother, when police told her they wanted to search through the house for clues, by the way, he thinks he's helping her. By saying, oh, she was cooperative with the police. No, no, no. They said, well, what did she say to police? And the brother said, she said, do what you gotta do. So even her own brother, Fox, are there. She said, go ahead and search everything. I mean, yeah, she said, just do what you gotta do. Really, I mean, tear it apart. If there's a bag with anybody's name on it, look in it, read everything, please. So, particular one, her excuse for the ASAPA men letter here. Yeah. Hoof. Good God, do whatever, it's a lot. So the defense team tried to argue that this passage was figurative. Oh. This wasn't literally. No. It was venting, hyperbole, they said. It's all, it's all just silly. The kind of thing anybody might say about an annoying ex. Yeah. Yeah, murder him ASAP, is that, amen. For real. Yeah. So the defense, it's their turn. And they pull a Corey Richens, Laurie Vallow, they call zero witnesses, defense fucking res. Who are they gonna call? In, in, prove nothing. Nope, and that's what they tried to do. Unless you call Donna, you got nobody to talk to. Even her own brother fucked her and told her, told the truth. So they put on no, no defense, no case, no argument. They do cross examination, everybody don't get me wrong, but they don't present, call it a case. Nope, they don't call any experts, they don't put Donna on the stand. And it goes to the verdict, it goes to the jury. What are they gonna say here, you think? You know what I mean? They find her fucking guilty of everything. All the charges. Sentencing comes along, and there is all the aggravating factors that they put forth, which are too numerous to list off here, and I won't even bother listing them. You guys understand what's going on. That, yeah. Then there's the mitigation part of the hearing. What do they got? If you don't know, that's her turn to come out and say, I'm such a great person that you don't wanna kill me. You don't kill me. I'm invaluable in society, please don't kill me. She says, I'm not giving a fucking thing of mitigation, fuck you people. What? Yeah, she says, I want the death penalty, eat shit. That's what she tells them, essentially. Oh, she's trying to challenge them. She told, I don't want the lawyers, she told her lawyers and the court, I don't want them putting anything on that might convince the jury not to kill me. I don't want any mitigation. So the trial court has to hold a competency hearing to make sure she's not nuts when she does this. They wanna make sure she understands what she's doing. The judge explains the purpose of mitigating and the consequences of waving it. It's all the prosecution's shit at that point. The trial counsel describes for the judge what evidence could be presented if Donna allowed it. This is what we have, her family, people who love her saying she's a nice person, all this shit. And she can sit there, they can dress her in a grandmotherly outfit. Say all sorts of nice things about her, she bakes cookies and all that shit. No one's gonna kill her, you know what I mean? Yeah. The counsel also notes, for the record, they personally and professionally disagree with Donna's decision to waive her right to mitigation, but they believe she's mentally competent to make it and it's her right. So they bring in a psychiatrist, Dr. Thomas Eberle, and he evaluates Donna. He concludes that Donna's decision to forego mitigation was rationally made. Might not be a rational decision, but it was made with rational thought. Sure. He finds no psychiatric or psychological abnormality that would impair her capacity to make the decision. She's competent, knows what she's doing. The court has to allow it. The judge asked her directly, do you understand that by waiving the presentation of mitigating evidence, this jury has very little to go on in coming up with anything other than the death penalty? You get that, right? Yeah. She said, quote, that is what I hope for. I know what I'm doing and I know why. Thank you for asking. I appreciate it. Which I think. I love the little, thank you for asking. Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm good. I don't want any soda, but thank you for asking. That's hilarious. I appreciate your offer. I'll take the murder please. Wow. There is an unsworn statement she'd like to make. Yeah? Okay. She, most of the time this would be to ask for remorse. Show remorse, ask for mercy, do all that kind of shit. Even to talk to her family, to their family, say they're sorry, whatever the fuck it is. Donna uses her, wow, uses her unsworn statement to speak for over an hour. What? Number one, which is a long time. Headline set. Headline set in court. This is fucking amazing. Now during her hour long speech, she presents nothing of any mitigating evidence, spends the time complaining about the media coverage, how people have treated her, and just basically she's trying to right all the social wrongs she believes have happened to her over the course of this. She spent time criticizing the news media coverage, criticizing the jurors. Oh, and? Who by the way is their decision to decide, I mean the judge eventually has to agree with them, but they're gonna recommend a sentence here. They're gonna murder you lady. She called them young and experienced people who don't read newspapers or watch the news. Outstanding. She said they're a bunch of dummies and they're too young. Like your boyfriend reads the news or newspapers. He's in his 20s when he's talking about it. Yeah, these people are older than him, right? Yeah, we got a jury of your boyfriend's peers here for you. That's what, what are we talking about? It's a jury of his peers, not yours, because they'd have a hard time staying awake for the whole thing, honestly. They need a little nap during the day. They're home watching Perry Mason. It's a Perry Mason's on, that's what's going on. So she also, in addition to shit talking the jurors, which I've never seen before. That's crazy. In this situation. Usually they leave the jury out of it. Then also frequently referred to her wealth. Kept making, bringing up her wealth, talking about how she had 52 charge cards and she had all this money. Like she- Charge cards came up. Dude, she's just like doing everything to make the jury possibly hate her. Let me show you how rich I am. Let me call you young and experienced morons. Let me talk shit about everybody. She brought up 52 charge cards. She did. She did. This is her, please don't kill me. I'm rich and a bitch. I'm DNG. Wow, yeah. She also used the time to berate one of the prosecution witnesses, Frank Reynolds, who's a bus terminal employee, who saw her with Nate and overheard him, overheard her ask Robert for $3,000 on February 10th. She took offense at his testimony about her social standing. That's what she was mad at. How dare you act like I don't have access to $3,000. I'm wealthy. I have 52 charge cards. I don't need his $3,000. Frank Reynolds is Davido's character name and it's always sunny. Yeah, it's always sunny, absolutely. Well, he works at a bus station in Youngstown. That's fucking hilarious. So then she tells the jury this, quote, I will not provide any mitigating evidence. I will not. You are bound by law to give me one sentence, the death penalty. You have no other choice. That is what I'm asking you to do because that is the right thing to do. And then she sits down. By law. By law. The judge. Wow. I mean, this judge, the judge noted in a sentencing that he also detected self-promotion in her hour-long statement to jurors. She thought this was like, this is like fucking TikTok for her. Like she's gonna, this is Instagram. What could I got? She's gonna throw her weight around this room. 52 charge cards. 52. She said also that she frequently referred to her wealth. One witness, wow. Also the judge said that you berated a witness for just being a witness. They just saw something and you berated him for it. And he also says, it seems these mischaracterizations of her social status were more upsetting to Roberts than the guilty verdict against her for complicity to commit murder. You, ma'am, may fuck off and death penalty for you too. And there you go. She's the first woman to be sentenced to death in Shrumble County in modern history. Whatever the fuck that means. Yeah. Wow. So her and Nate both go in a death row. Now in prison, he was at the Mansfield Correctional Institute. Later the Chilicoth Correctional Institute. She was sent to the Ohio Reformatory for Women in Marysville, Ohio. And they're never allowed to communicate after that. They never saw each other, heard from each other again. Now she appeals. Really? Okay. Now they can, they affirm her convictions for aggravated murder, aggravated burglary and aggravated robbery here. But they're saying her own defense lawyer would explain to the Ohio Supreme Court later, later that Donna had a martyr complex. She's a martyr. She's one of these. They said that the lantern, the student newspaper at Ohio State would report that Donna told the court she wanted the death penalty as a matter of racial parity. What? As a means of proving racial injustice because as a white Jewish woman, converted, as a white Jewish woman, she expected the same punishment as her black accomplice. As my young black accomplice. That's right. I should get the same thing. All right. And you can choose me to do that if you'd like. So they ordered that the trial judge on remand to afford Roberts her right to alicute and to personally review and evaluate evidence, weigh aggravating circumstances against any relevant mitigating sentences or circumstances and evidence, or determine the, anew the appropriateness of the death penalty. And they find that they overturn the death penalty. Really? They overturn the death penalty on her. Saying that it wasn't, the jury didn't get to properly weigh aggravating and mitigating. But then anybody could just do that and get their sentence overturned. That's the point. That's crazy. She didn't want to mitigate shit. She said that. She went up there and made an asshole out of herself instead. Well, she did it because she had a martyr complex at the time. She wanted to show that white Jewish ladies can go to jail same as black guys. Can get the needle the same as black guys. 2007, she's the only woman on Ohio's death row, by the way. Just hanging out. She's loud out of herself from 8 a.m. to 11 a.m. and then from 4 30 to 5 30, which is actually more than most death row. Yeah, let out. It's usually 23 hours lockdown. That's right. She remained on death row even after the court vacated her sentence and ordered a new sentencing. They say that, yeah, they said, now all of a sudden too, she's saying that she had mental problems and this is mitigating circumstances. Now she puts in court documents and hearings, comments about how she was sexually abused by a cousin and lived in a very, very abusive home on a farm and later suffered mental injuries and multiple car crashes. Oh. Yeah, that's what she says. Bouncing off things. Every car she's in bounces off shit. Multiple head injuries. I was very abused and my cousin molested me. So, her abused me. I think they were the same age because she said sexually abused, not molested. So they're important. Those are similar age. Important information. They, none of that makes you kill a man when you're 57, I don't think. Are you sure? No. Michael, the son, Robert's son said, in the nearly 40 years I've known Donna, it's never come up. Meaning the sexual assaults is like, well, you wouldn't tell your stepson that your cousin molested you when you were nine probably. But you probably tell her, tell them about abuse or head injuries and the 40 years that he's known her, has her car bounced off shit a lot? Well, no, he said, well, that's the other thing. She said she suffered a head injury in a 1999 car accident. But Michael said, between the time of the accident and the murder, she never claimed a head injury. She never went to the hospital for it. She never said she had an injury. She didn't tell anybody about it. By the 2007 hearing, she claimed the tape conversations between her and Jackson. Now she has new excuses for those. Were, quote, just my imagination. What? Just my imagination. That's right, that's all it is. If it's your imagination, then it's my imagination because it fucking exists. Oh, no, and also the things I, not only were they my imagination, they were stories I was writing. What? Now she's pulling a Cory Richen saying the walk the dog letter was just a story. She said this is story, a story, quote, like the one she'd written while she was in school. Oh boy. Just a, you know, fantasy writings and that she never meant for anything bad to happen. Now on remand, the trial court afforded her her right to allocution. And a one week later, after asking her whether she had anything further to say and hearing an argument from the defense council, they say, you ma'am, may fuck off a death penalty again. Hang on to it. You got that for you. Go put that in your pocket for later. Yeah, that's good. You're gonna need that later. 2013 appeals again, obviously. She doesn't like this at all. Concluding that the court failed to consider her allocution and determining her sentence during the proceeding on remand. So they vacate the death sentence again and put her back for resettencing. 2014, she's back in court. He hears the judge hears arguments on the defense motion. He denies the motion on the grounds that the instructions in this case regarding the proceedings on remand precluded granting the motion and that he had already considered and rejected Robert's arguments. It's not that we didn't listen, we just already heard that and said, don't work, no. You already brought this to us. It's not new shit. He then said he carefully reviewed the court record, the guilt and penalty phases of the trial and say that he announced that he had, quote, given no deference to the prior decisions of the original trial judge and outweighed that the aggravating circumstances, outweigh the mitigating circumstances by proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Right. And that he incorporated these findings into a sentencing opinion and says, you ma'am, may fuck off death penalty again. Keep getting it. Now on the night Nate was arrested, he's appealing based on something too. What? Night he was arrested, he was advised of his Miranda rights on the ride to the jail. Then they said, without being questioned, he denied killing anyone and asked whether he had the right to an attorney at any time. They told him, yes, we told you your rights. At the jail, a short while after questioning began, Jackson agreed to allow police to videotape his statement. He did not ask for a lawyer and declined to, or declined to answer questions. He just said a couple of things but then kept talking. As the videotape began, the detectives informed him of his rights and gave him a waiver of rights form, which he signed on camera. Uh-oh. On the tape, he claimed that he did not mean to kill Robert and essentially claimed he had acted in self-defense. They said, in making his arguments to the trial court to suppress his statement to police, Jackson maintained the police persisted in questioning him, even though he asserted, several times his rights to say nothing and have an attorney present. Although he admitted signing the waiver, he claimed that no one had read him his rights beforehand. Meanwhile, it's on camera. They said, in the midst of a long and rambling statement, he said, I talked to a lawyer or something. We just sum it up like I said, man, when I talk to my lawyer, man, you know what I'm saying? That's not asking for a lawyer. And they said, under the Fifth Amendment, you must clearly ask for a lawyer. 2017, Donna Ohio Supreme Court affirms her death sentence, six to one. 2018, the US Supreme Court denies to hear about it. So she's technically scheduled for execution, but Ohio's executions have been on moratorium for years due to the unavailability of lethal injection drugs. And this isn't fucking Louisiana. They don't just go, you know, get whatever runs that weed whacker, we'll stick that in. Or that's not, you know, they actually have to slam his nuts in the sliding door until he dies. He'll die eventually. 2021, Roberts files a, Donna files a federal habeas corpus petition in the US district court for the district of Northern Ohio, asserting 15 grounds for relief. Death sentence stands again. When is she gonna stop? 2024, the sixth circuit court vacates Nate's sentence. Really? Okay. May 2025, judge rules in favor of Donna's habeas petition. Donna's death sentence is once again in jeopardy of being vacated. Now, as they both face resettencing hearings, both of them have been vacated. As of right now, if you look up their current department of corrections, Ohio thing, they both say they're in for life without parole and life are their two sentences. What both of them say. So right now they are both, Life without, yeah. Not up to the death penalty, but they could have it reinstated. Okay. And Donna is now in her 80s. Oh. 80s, guys. I don't want that to happen. No, we're gonna, we can't execute an 85 year old lady. We can't. I don't want that to happen at all. Nobody wants anything like that. We'll just wait a little while. She'll keel over while fucking getting a doily. Yeah, it's coming, don't worry. It's gonna happen. She's the only woman on Ohio's death row still. I'd never, oh my God, cause somebody's gotta witness that. You don't wanna see that. Nobody wants to watch a very old lady get murdered. I mean, find it, getting those needle ends gonna be real easy, but you'll, or hard. You might tear that arm apart. Yeah, you might have to rip it up. Wow. So in the media, in the years since the convictions here, the case has been featured on deadly women. Jesus. Also snapped, killer couples. Yeah, cause she's a woman. Calls from the inside, season two, and for my man. Those are the names of the place, things that have been in. Nathaniel, like we said, he's in. He's in the 50s. He's born in 72, so yeah, he's gonna be 54 years old at this point. He is in the Ross Correctional Institution currently, and he is A440891, is his number. Donna is 0055276, and she is in the Ohio Reformatory for Women. That, everybody, is Howlin Township, Ohio, and one crazy goddamn back shit bonker story. That woman's 82, James. Yeah, she's 82. Oh, damn it. I think we'll just say, just life without. Well, how much more time are we talking here? I mean, it's not much longer. Let's not waste money on all these appeals. She's gonna be dead in the middle of these appeals. Who cares? She's gonna be dead tomorrow. Any minute. She can drop dead. She's in her 80s for Christ's sake. So there you go. If you liked that episode, do us a favor. Get on whatever app you're listening on. Give us five stars. It helps tremendously when you do that. So thank you for doing that, honestly, everybody. Do that, please. Definitely head over to shutupandgivememurder.com. Get your tickets for live shows, people. Let's do it. Looks like Royal Oak has sold out in distress. So May 29th and May 30th, Buffalo Royal Oak, both sold out. Thank you, everybody. You're fucking awesome. Let's keep that sell out train going. September 18th, Milwaukee at the PAPS. By the way, not a ton of tickets left for that. Very few and the PAPS is a nice venue. You wanna go there. The 19th of Minneapolis. Get your asses in there right now. Let's go. Minneapolis, buy those tickets. Don't let Milwaukee embarrass you, really. Dallas on October 3rd. Dallas, big theater there, too. Is it the Texas theater? Or is it bigger? I think it might be. I'm not sure. It's the majestic. The majestic, that's where we're at. Yes. It's amazing. The 16th in San Jose, October 17th in Sacramento, and then November 13th and 14th in Territown, New York, and Boston. So catch us there. Shut up and give me murder.com. Follow on social media. 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We're gonna go around the internet. We're gonna find everything that's going on in the world that has nothing to do with politics now, because we feel like you probably hear enough of that shit. So we're gonna go and we're gonna find all the silly shit that doesn't matter and we're gonna make fun of it. That's all. It's a fun day. Can't wait for you guys to do that. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. And in addition to that, you get a shout out. Well, first you get everything we put out, all ad free as well. Everything we put out, all the shows. Then in addition to that, you get a shout out, which is right now, Jimmy. Hit me with the names of the most wonderful, wonderful people in the world who would never ever stand up and beg for the death penalty while yelling at the jurors. They're not that stupid. Our listeners are smart. Jimmy, hit me with them right fucking now. This was executive producer Gary Howard in Livingston, Texas. Gary. Simon Shed. Over there, Raymond. Simon. It's his birthday. Hey, happy birthday, Simon. Happy birthday, Simon. Simon and Jordan. We missed you over here on the side of the pond. Yeah, it's been a long, been too long. Winter Steinway as well. Thank you all so much. Thank you. For everything you do. Other producers this week, Peyton Meadows. Monch Sonja. It's his birthday as well. Happy birthday. Jesus, they are from the other side of the pond. Another friend from over there. He's gonna come over to Tarrytown for Christ's sake. That's gonna be a lot. We'll have to show him a good time after the show. He's been a fan since like the second Crime and Sports episode. Go have drinks with this man. We gotta have a, put one back with him. Scott Rashard or Richard. He's in Maricopa, Arizona. That's tough. Oh boy, poor bastard. I'm sorry. Happy hours in Sedalia, Missouri this week. Good for you, buddy. Yeah, about that. Good to see you. That's watch out for tornadoes. Janice Hill, Penny Boyce. Janice Hill. Desmond Thorne. Yeah, she's great. She's always on there. Thank you, Janice Hill. Claire Tiskorna. Tskornja. Tsh, uh, yeah. Tshara. He'll get you first basement. Tskornja. Okay. Becky Kinsling. Elliot Bottello. Jason Hussun. Hussun. Maritza Hovinar. Hovinar. Hovina. Athena Ray. Elijah Glazer. Andrew Hagland. Angie Hines. Beef baby boy. Yeah. Sarah Carlton. Shauna Orshona Young. Joseph Hardigan. Lou would no last name. Elliot Clark. Shock Jello. Jojo O'Sullivan. Dominic Cheney. It's not Cheney. That's two E's. Marianne Bangso. Good for you. Betty Acastello. Jennifer Kuchen. Janice C.B. Jim Heath. Susie Q. Carls. Ella would no last name. Mary Ella Formachoni. And then also she got two. Yeah. That's two patrons for Mary Ella Formachoni. The Coney perhaps. Girminder. Germinder. Ronda Rondhawa. Yep. Jeanette Mond. What is it? Say Ron Howard. What was that? No. Germinder. Ronda Hawa. Roe Ronda Hawa. I thought you said Ron Howard. I was like. Ronda Hawa. Yeah. Maybe that's what it is in another language. Ronda Howard's a patron. Wow. Not bad. Jeanette Midland. Jordan Jocelson. Jocelson. Katie Zolo. Tasha Knight and Perry. Leslie Roland Skip would no last name. Amy T. Elijah or Alicia? Or Ira Heta. Ira Hita. Hailey Kirtner. Cameron Bullard. Gregory Baracci. Michelle Talarico. Larissa Gilmore. Joy Ritter Huizinga. Private Butters. Yeah. Probably not a person. Mikey Indigo. Nate Zody. Narissa Milo Hobb. T Money. Oscar Borg. Elizabeth would no last name. Jennifer Squire. Glen G. and S. Would no last name. Ted Fred. Fred Bred. Danielle Christensen. Brooks Patterson. Krista Riddinger. Amanda S. Brooke Crowley. Lex Lucifer. Amy Trowf. Brenna Kromka. Laura would no last name. Casey Hunley. Melanie Cronin. Nikki would no last name. Alex would no last name. Hope Llewellyn. Yep. Llewellyn. Jennifer Simpson. Karen Korover. Coraveur. Stephanie would no last name. Melissa Spittle. Damien Siegler. Jacqueline Lamar. Aaron Miller. Soggy Head of Lettuce. Tiffany Hamm. Christy Piatella. Piatella. Joe Mama. Probably a not a real person. Well, you never doubt Jimmy. Lance Nigel. Williams. Kroy Aloysius. Pockets Roasty Shins. I don't know what that means. It's a bunch of words. Susan would no last name. Don Livingston. Sarah Small. Chris Rouse. Susan Jiren. Jireen Max would no last name. Chris Omara. Wyatt Wade. Gail Briggs. Dom the Blind. Oh, that's Dom. Mattie G. Joe would no last name. Christina Benjamin. Michelle Derringer. Annie would no last name. Tara would no last name. John Perkins. Heather would no last name. Cora Jane Three Rats. In a trench coat. John Bella. Aaron Arnold. Tammy would no last name. Erica Collins. Jessica Freeman. Aaron Hardman. Denise McLeod. Sarah Lundgren. Legit John. Anna Russell would no last name. Randy would no last name. Anna's last name is Russell. That's true. Holly T. Kayla Abert. Zachary Cannon. Susan Surf. Sunshine with no E. Whit. Brendan G. Gauze. Brad Warren. Chelsea Ball. Kara Brigham. Brigham. Kelly McKenzie. Madeline Fahey. Rachel Hayes. Doug Griffey. Jessica Ward. Leslie Battler. Kelsey Scherzinger. Andrea Leonardo. Megan Farrell. Curaughan France. Terence. Nope, that's Tariqa. Deolivera. Michelle Olesh. Melissa Surly. Sarah Jeremy Mazez. Timo would no last name. Karen would no last name. Owen Butkovich. Eliza Alisa. Oh, Eliza. Alyssa, it's probably Alisa, right? Barnes. Lauren would no last name. Ren Milner. Trisha Lipptrap. OK. Rachel Francis. Rachel Deck. Peter Pants. Probably not. Harley Elliott. Stephanie Lascoe. And every person that patron's a show. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody, so much. God damn it. Thank you. You guys are the best. We appreciate everything you do for us. Thank you so much. If you'd like to follow us on social media or find out any other thing about us, shut up and give me Murder is the Place to Go. And it's all redone the site. It's very user-friendly. It looks really great. So get in there. Get some tickets. Follow us. Do all of that shit. Keep coming back. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. The world moves fast. You work day? Even faster. Pitching products. Drafting reports. Analyzing data. Microsoft 365 Copilot is your AI assistant for work, built into Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and other Microsoft 365 apps you use, helping you quickly write, analyze, create, and summarize. So you can cut through clutter and clear a path to your best work. Learn more at microsoft.com. slash m365 copilot. Hey, everybody. Listening to Small Town Murder out there. Hi. Good to see you out there. I'm here with Jimmy, too. And this is an ad. But not an ad for a product. This is an ad for tour dates. Yes. Come see a live show. The 2026 tour. All the tickets are for sale right now, starting out with February 21st in Nashville, March 6th in Durham, March 7th in Atlanta. Phoenix is sold out. We do have tickets, though, to your stupid opinions on the 21st of March. Salt Lake City sold out. Denver has tickets. Be there on May 2nd. May 29th. 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