Humans vs Robots? The Real Future of Work with Dr. Aadeel Akhtar, CEO of Psyonic

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But we've all been so busy speculating and fretting about AI replacing us that we forgot to check on the robots. AI may be able to outthink us, but it can't lift a box or work a shift or handle hazardous material. But robots can. With companies like Amazon, UPS, and Nvidia, investing heavily in robotics and automation, us mere mortals are about to face even more competition in the workforce on all fronts. But it's not all doom and gloom robotics are being used very positively too, like to restore human function and maybe even improve it. So we might be able to find a peaceful coexistence, but in order to strike the right balance, we're going to need some serious help. We're thrilled to have him with us. Please join me in welcoming Dr. Adil Aqtar, CEO of Sionic. Dr. Aqtar isn't just a PhD in neuroscience and robotics. He's the driving force behind a company, creating incredibly advanced attainable, bionic hands that are restoring touch and dexterity to amputees. You might have seen him on Shark Tank or any number of places. And most importantly, he brings a deeply human-centered perspective to this technology. Welcome Dr. Aqtar and tell us a little bit more about you. Yeah, thank you for having me on the show. So honestly, I've been wanting to build bionic limbs ever since I was seven. My parents are from Pakistan and I was visiting and that was the first time I met someone missing a limb. She was my age missing her right leg and using a tree branch as a crutch. That's when inspired me to go into this field. And I eventually start a company that builds bionic limbs that are accessible for both humans and robots. And now we've got close to 300 patients using it. It's covered by Medicare in the US. And we have over 50 robotics company using the same hand that goes on humans that goes on robots. And that includes NASA, Meta, Google, Amazon, electronic hexagon Mercedes is putting cars together with them. So lots of automotive applications, lots of warehouse applications in the home is well too. Well, thank you Dr. Aqtar. You are exactly the right person for this conversation. We're super excited to have you here. And we're about to throw you right into the mix. But before we do, Melissa, tell us more. What are we, what are we getting ourselves in due today? Wow, this is really an exciting topic. It feels like every day we're seeing headlines about AI driven layoffs and tech and media. And that anxiety is real. But now we're staring down the next way, not just AI thinking for us, but bionic robots working alongside us or maybe instead of us, which Dr. Aqtar will get into more. We see it with Amazon warehouse robots, Tesla's Optimus, and almost that surreal parkour videos. I don't know if you've watched those from Boston Dynamics. So this isn't really abstract. It's a tangible shift. But what if we're looking at this wrong? What if the real story isn't replacement that augmentation? We're already seeing a revolution in health care where robotic assisted surgery allows for superhuman precision, leading to fewer complications and faster recoveries, and labs robots handle repetitive tasks with flawless accuracy, freeing up scientists to actually discover and do research. I fact, near and dear to my heart, my husband is also a doctor in neuroscience. And he used to have to spend a lot of time doing pipette. But let's talk about the jobs no one should have to do. Robots can weld in toxic environments, diffuse bombs, handle radioactive materials, keeping humans out of harm's way. So for a business, it could be a game changer. It means unparalleled quality, 24, seven operations, and achieving a scale that was once just a dream. But this power comes with profound questions, Kadeera. The biggest one is what happens to the millions of people and the jobs that get automated. And even with all this tech, it's utterly dependent on us. A surgical robot is an extension of a surgeon's skill and expertise. An automated factory line needs human for oversight, maintenance, judgment. So this creates the skills gap. So how do we prepare people for the new jobs this technology creates? So here we are. We have a tool that can revolutionize our entire world, but also disrupt our lives. So some see this as a future of human empowerment, others view it as a dystopia of replacement. Where do we start? Dr. Oktar, let's bring it back to your startup and the human-centric mission you've built. Your work is a perfect entry point to this entire conversation. So share with us a little bit more. Yeah, absolutely. And my background, so as you mentioned, so I have a PhD in neuroscience from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. I have a master as an electrical and computer engineering from there as well. And so while I was a PhD student, is when we started building our own bionic limbs, starting with hands in particular. And so this was around maybe 10, 11 years ago. So like summer of 2014, around that time, in 3D printing was the big thing. That was the game changer for everything. And now it's become pretty ubiquitous. Every grade school even has a 3D printer in their lab now. And everyone knows what 3D printing is. But like 11, 12 years ago, it was a brand new thing. Consumer 3D printing was a brand new thing. And we got one of our first three printers in the labs at the University of Illinois. And we found open source designs online that for bionic hands. And we started 3D printing them. And we would test them out with patients. And one of our very first patient ever was a man in Ecuador who had lost his left hand 35 years prior due to landmine explosion. And the hand at the time, it was like three times the size of a human hand. Why is going everywhere? Plugging a breadboard. His power supplies the wall. And despite that, Juan, our very first patient, said that he felt as though a part of him had come back. And that was because he made a pinch with his left hand for the first time in 35 years. And we, at that point, I realized that if I finished medical school and work in an academic hospital, that this just ends up as a journal paper. And if we want everyone to feel the same way as Juan, we had to commercialize this technology. And so that's when psionic was born. And so the PhD program that I was in was any robotics lab in particular. And so we always had an idea of what would be interesting for roboticists and researchers as well. And so from the beginning, we've always had an open source programming interface to the hand where you can go online and then figure out how to code like every single finger in our hand as well as stream all the touch sensors as well. And so because of that, we kind of knew that it could serve both purposes, right? Where it could serve the human side and the robot side. And when we started early on metabot our hands and then NASA had purchased our hands too. And we had gone on a trip to NASA about like two years ago. And there is a human astronaut robot there named Valkyrie that they had that could do all these tasks that you find on the initial space station. And we brought one of our human users with us. And Valkyrie was struggling to do a zipper that was on the wall with our Bionic Hand. And our user of the human user of the Bionic Hand on a cover of Linn, she goes up to and she easily does it with her Bionic Hand. And the NASA engineers were like, oh, we didn't even think about using the hand in that way, right? And so we see this like symbiotic relationship between our human users and our robot users. And it's what we build for humans benefits the robots. And we build for the robots benefits the humans. And it's this synergistic relationship. Love that. That's really, I mean, your story is just amazing. And so it makes me want to, you know, kind of dive into this. But definitely I think, Kadeera, let's talk about how does it make people feel when they see like what he has created, what his team has created and how is that look for the future? Yeah, well, you know what? Just listening between your intro and then Dr. Abtair's like the just talking about like the origin story and the impact. I think, you know, Lee, we've been leading this conversation, not just here on the podcast, but in general, like this is a technology story. But listening to both of you is a people story. And I think not only is it a people story, it is a social responsibility story. I'm biased because of course, that's the nature of my work. When we talk about the impact to the person, whether it is the worker or the recipient whose life is made better or easier, more accessible because of this product or tool, I really think that's what we should be focusing on. We have been talking for Eon about AI and robotics, reshaping knowledge work, the future of work, it's here. We're not going back. When we talk about how it's made our lives easier in terms of manufacturing and logistics, healthcare and retail, like all the examples we've covered, even just in the short time we've been talking here, I think the conversation has to shift again from like, what is the technology you wing? Like that's the simple part, right? But it's also about how do we as organizations adapt responsibly and again, really helping to frame that impact as a positive. I think from a workplace and a culture perspective, companies are really going to need to double down and get really clear on their value because it's easy to talk about innovation and efficiency, right? Like those are the buzzwords. When we talk about technology across the board, and that's fine, we want to lead into that. But I think just Melissa, you were talking about in your intro, we have to make sure that this progress doesn't come at the expense of people, and again, how are we framing that conversation? Because there's an opportunity here, there's an upside. I think the organizations that will thrive are going to be the ones that are going to bring their teams along, right? So you talked about that in your intro, like what does this mean for people and people are hearing about like hundreds of thousands of jobs are being lost? You know, that's going to look like upskilling. That's going to look like creating new pathways for collaboration between the humans and the machine. That's going to look like, you know, me as, you know, if I'm the worker being told, hey, cadera, this is actually going to free up your time to do X, those things that make us human that we do best. I can now focus on that versus some of those tasks that maybe have been dangerous or we need the robots to help with precision, et cetera. And then like I said, we can't ignore the social responsibility component. There is such an opportunity here, whether it's around government, governance, excuse me, whether it is around just safety and well-being for your employees, whether it is at around accessibility, which is a huge social impact opportunity. So I think if we frame this conversation just as a society going forward as more of an opportunity for what this means for us as people to adapt responsibly, there's such an opportunity to win, but like it's not going to happen naturally. This is a conversation that we are going to need to be having for years to come. Yeah. Well, Dr. Oktar, there's a difference between, okay, so if I'm a worker, you know, and I look to the left and I see a worker alongside me as a bionic limb and it's restored and brought back functionality and they've made a choice to go in that direction and embrace the technology. And because of it, they are able to carry out their job and responsibilities where they may not have been able to otherwise. That's one side of the technology. If I look to the left and the right and I see the robotics on automation, replacing those workers and I know I'm next, that's a difference of the technology. So how do you, I guess, how do you square those two? And how do we get comfortable with what's coming? Yeah, you know, something that should be qualified is that these robots aren't ready yet, right? Like it's not even close because you hear the headlines too, right? I mean, like Elon Musk had like stop production on like Optimus for a while because they need to solve the dexterity problem with the hands. I mean, and we have a unique solution to that because we have human users who use the hands and they know like and it can translate from our human users to the robots, right? In particular, but even so, even with all that, what we don't necessarily think that it's going to be like replacing human workers, but rather like humans will be working alongside the robots, especially they used to use the term cobot for this, right? Like a collaborative robot, which I think they stopped using that term, like officially in the industry. But the idea is that it would augment, right? It wouldn't actually replace jobs. And so I mean, I think there was like a headline recently that said that, you know, 600,000 jobs from like Amazon are going to be replaced by robots here. And the thing is that those 600,000 jobs don't even exist right now, right? So like when we're talking about like what is actually going to be like replaced, half the jobs that the tech jobs that we have now like didn't exist like what 10, 20 years ago, even, right? So I think we're going to see just this revolution in the way that these, the robotics are just going to be another piece, another tool of this. And it's going to create jobs in a different way that we don't even know of, right? So the next 10, 20 years there's going to be like a whole new slew of jobs that that we didn't even know about in the same way that every industrial revolution has created that. You know, I love what you said, too, because I do think it's like looking at it a positive perspective. You know, I know we're fearless fixers here. And we usually look at the consequences of actions and decisions. So if we paint the picture that for example, construction worker has a bionic exoskeleton or whatever it might be, meaning that they can lift heavy beings all day without a debilitating back injury that extends their career. That's a great thing, right? You've seen that in Alien the movie, right? You know, but I think about that from an operations perspective, I come from the insurance world and workers comp and those kind of soft tissue injuries are devastating and super expensive to the contractor and and the business in general. Absolutely. Sorry, if I could just jump in on that too. I mean, that's one of the big things is that I think some of the time is the way that these technologies are framed, you know, they're replacing jobs and things like that. And they always talk about in terms of like, you know, efficiency and like, like the ROI, which are important business metrics. But at the end of the day, the value that it needs to bring us to the humans, right? You bring up a very, very good point that one of the big values there is the the back breaking lab that humans are doing in these workplace environments. And I mean, so for example, our hand can hold like 140 pounds, right? And so it can handle like a very, very heavy like load and humans typically aren't supposed to do more than 50, right? We were working with some of our clients and one of them like, it has like this pack bag of like giant dog food that they wanted to be able to like move from a shelf. And like this bag of dog food, it's it's 50 pounds. And so what you look at it and it's like, oh, no, that's not 50 pounds. And then you've like a lifted up and you're like, oh my goodness, right? And I'm just thinking to myself that like, wow, I can't imagine having to do this like over and over and again, because this is just one bag of dog food. If I had to do hundreds of these bags of dog food, like, yeah, I would be in a lot of pain, probably by the end of that. And if we can have a robot automate that and then have a corollary position where maybe there's someone who's programming the robot to do the task or like supervising the robots on the human side, which is a job that doesn't exist right now. But it would probably well in the future, then that could really help. And I think reframe that vision that this is assisting humans in that way instead of like replacing them. Yeah, I have had many roles and operations. One of them was in the warehouse and distribution transportation and a warehouse order picker. If they had a, you know, one of those co-bots or, you know, somebody like that following them carrying those heavy totes, right? This would be really helpful. They still need to be there to do the complex picking of the items or confirming that the items are correct in the actual bins. But the job shipped from manual labor to assisted logistics management is a key thing. And so like, we could talk about more about that about how do you prepare the workforce and for the future. Dr. Arctur, you're talking about jobs that aren't really there today, but they should be. So that theme really is augmentation, not replacement, right? And using the tech and using the robotics to do those heavy dangerous, maybe precise lifting, all those that a human can contribute their unique problem solving and their cognitive skills. And also the empathy that's necessary, you know, to understand that there's something going on. We, this is many, many years ago, we thought we were getting tech forward in our distribution center. And we had everything going through barcodes and barcoded every item in the warehouse, this huge warehouse. And it's still required every single night, somebody to go in because things were getting stuck, but whatever was happening. It really wasn't just like you could any of the robotics actually keep everything moving. So I love this idea of augmentation, but I think that there's then a gap about like understanding as a business and as a business owner and a leader. What do you do to prepare your humanitry? Yeah, that preparation is key because we talk, we're okay, we're qualifying and saying technology is not ready yet. It's down the road. We're talking hypotheticals, but we said the same thing or a lot of people said the same thing with AI. Like look at this new technology and it's the novelty. And but then all of a sudden we've come up in generations over the past, I don't know, three, four years. And it's infiltrated every industry for better or worse. So is it, Rory, really? Is it really the fact a future vision? Are we, you know, three, four years away from the robotics technology just to get where the visionaries like you want it to be? I think there's the corporate responsibility that Kadir mentioned earlier that it's the same with AI. You can't just say that you have AI in your process and not really dig into it and also not prepare your teams. So there is responsibility, I think, at the top levels of every company to understand what the potential is of something as great as the robotics that Dr. is bringing to the table. I think that we have the ability to have it be a hybrid type of workflow that has never happened. And in that scenario, it makes so much sense to bring your teams along earlier. Right. And I think that it comes from the top, the leadership has to be curious and engaged and want to know how to make this from a very intentional perspective, make it work for them in a way that doesn't alienate both their employees, their board, their customers, because, you know, I'm sure some people, there are a lot of people still scared of tech to a certain extent. But like when we talked about AI and education, it kind of feels like if you don't get on the boat, you're going to be lost. And I do think, I mean, just to even kind of just double down on what you were saying, even about just the framing, I think we, and I mean, go out of order here and kind of my thinking process, but like, the framing is so important because I don't know about y'all, but like when I hear things like the robots are here to help or amplify or assist. That tells me that I'm still in the driver's seat, that there's still a human oversight that, you know, that there it's there to make my life easier versus me being replaced. So I think that framing part like, let's not lose that. That is so, so key versus folks hearing that like this robot is here to cut costs, which means I'm going to be cut. Right. I think then the communication is really important. And Melissa likes to tease that out a little bit more. So, you know, like you said, leaders should be communicating, whether it's the CEO or managers, just on the why people need to understand the why they need to understand where they fit in. I think then companies also just this is more kind of around that governance thing from a social responsibility, but internally as well, need to really be transparent. And this is, you know, an extreme. So, you know, companies for the most part aren't going to kind of talk about the robot on day one when it shows up. Right. Like most companies aren't going to do that. But like, how can you start as early as possible talking to your employees about integrating robot. They should be a part of the planning process and not just the engineering teams or the product teams, but you know, I think about those frontline workers that might be right alongside of that robot. How are you involving them in the process right so many times those frontline workers are the first to kind of go. In a lot of cases. And so how how can you involve them right. I think companies should also be investing in retraining programs. How can you instead of cutting. How can you shift people into roles that might complement the new technology right like so other opportunities for oversight. You know, maintenance programming supervision. I think that ethical company or companies that really want to be responsible in terms of integrating these robots won't see this as a way of replacing people. And again, I know we all want to be good stewards around that. So I think you know, it's about elevating folks into higher value work retraining retooling is the way to go here. And one of the things that I loved about Dr. Acta your origin story. No one would argue with what you had to say no right. It hit the heart. It wasn't about the ROI. Well, maybe a little bit, but it was really about the heart. And so I feel like when we hear something like that. That's what the boards and the executives need to think about because everyone has an origin story. And so you can take his example of like how he framed how you framed your company and your mission. It's amazing. So I mean, you're providing, you know, just an amazing thing for so many people that need it. And I think that you can do the same thing in a company when you're saying we're going to have a hybrid collaboration with robotics in the warehouse. And let's talk about the origin story. So remember when Aaron was the supervisor of the order picker. And he went to grab that tote of solution. And it was a lot heavier than he thought it was. And he was out for over a year with a back injury that it's, it's really never got me better. Right. So then all of a sudden you've got this like it, it connects to the to the teen. You see it. You don't see it as a threat. You see it as like, yeah, what they want is they want me here for the long haul. Right. And like you said, talk about like, you know, new types of roles. And we don't have roles that we don't even know. Right. Like so, you know, when we're talking about human assist work, you know, we don't even really know exactly what is going to happen. Right. And so I think it's a, it's a great thing. But I love the idea of connecting it to an origin story that's relevant to your company to your team and also to whatever you're bringing in. So if you're bringing in robotic hands, who's a better person to tell that story than you doctor. So to come in and say, this is how it started. And this is where it's going. And it's just like just think about the same kind of thing here at company, ABC. Right. And the ROI isn't just on the financial side, right. The ROI is on the human side as well. Exactly. And that is, is if we aren't bringing value to the humans itself, then like what's, what's the purpose even in the first place, right. That's and we're talking about like, you know, framing like how do you frame this all. And it all boils back down to like what is the value that is bringing to the humanity, like humanity in general. And, and like is it pushing humanity in a better direction. Yes, if it's if it's, you know, resolving healthcare issues and like things like that. Then yeah, then obviously then that's going to be a good ROI as well as just on the financial side. And honestly, that's the reason why it's financially viable because you are saving money from, from humans being like injured in the workplace, right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, marketing is framing framing is marketing. So actual value, you know, it brings a resource functionality and it brings, you know, a human, there's a human centric element to it. That doesn't need reframing like that's real. When it's, this is we're doing this anyway and we're automating our workforce and you're, you know, you're, it's too bad for you, but it's progress that need, that's framing, right. Then you bring in Steven Spielberg or whoever's for sale and you make this, you know, really expensive video and you get nice narration and voiceover and you talk about, you show the shiny metal from a nice angle and all those things. That's, that's reframing saying we're, you know, progress is moving ahead without you and here's what the future looks like and we're in it now and all those things. So if it, I guess I'd make the distinction between the two if it's actually providing at the human level individual level, and even at the corporate level, if it's, if it's benefiting and enabling and parallel progress, you don't need to, to spin that story. You know, if you're doing it to the advantage of some of the disadvantage of others, that's marketing. Something else I want to point out here too is that, you know, companies like Amazon and a lot of the automotive companies have been using robots already for like, for like over a decade. Sure. I mean, with Kiva systems like the robots that go underneath the shelves and then move the shelves over and humans have been interacting with them already in those environments. So it's, it's, it's really just an extension of that, right, where, where the Kiva robots didn't really take away people's jobs. They just were doing things that people were doing yet. And so it created this entirely new industry, right, and the same thing with like the KUKA arms that are like, you know, painting the cars and like doing all those automations on that end. And humans are already working alongside those robots or work with them in some capacity, right. So it's not like this is a new thing in that regard that hasn't been done before. Yeah. And if it's not new, then why I would say totally understand, you know, but we're seeing it more in the public context that's the thing, right. Well, I think it's to you brought this up earlier, doctor, too, is that the danger is when the messages that were optimizing for efficiency and cost cutting. While leaving out how are you optimizing for the human side of things or the workers or the customer. Then you're eroding trust. And so that's the thing that I think, you know, companies need to be aware of is that it's not always that. You need to be, I mean, of course, you need to be concerned and focused on your internal operations and team members. But you also have to think about like what is your brand and how do people like interact with that brand. And so there's always a level of trust there that is either earned or derived. And if I see something that doesn't feel like, mmm, a robot did that. And was there, do I understand that any, was there any oversight of this. I'm not sure I want that got it, you know, loads kinds of things. And to your point, it's already part of ecosystem of automotive, you know, manufacturing, for example. Yet we don't hear those stories. So like I think, you know, there's a lot of questions. And I do remember recall I recall stinging on like 60 minutes, like many years ago when it's first started and they were interviewing the people and they were like, well. Now I don't have to drill, you know, this door in every day and then like pull it off because I didn't get it aligned perfectly right. So I think there are some benefits, but I do think that the messaging again, you have to be clear because if it's just based on optimizing for efficiency and cost cutting and ROI from that perspective, you're going to have some. That's true. Yeah. Well, then I guess like the begs the question should should robots and automation stay back of house and stay, you know, a little bit invisible to the, to the customers. I or let's say you go to a Chipotle and maybe this isn't too far from the future. And you know, instead of interacting with the, the people that are fulfilling your order, it goes down an assembly line and there's just a mechanical process that happens. Does that fundamentally change our experience or if we pay the same or less, are we happy? Is it a mutually beneficial equation or the more and more, we're saying now there's more percept public consciousness and visibility, but the more visible front of house things become from an automation standpoint, the more people will get to be talking about it, be skeptical and be, I guess, more and more, you know, concerned about the takeover of the technology. So she is at a back of house, right, a house application or where we, where we had it. I don't think we have to choose just yet. I would love to see, you know, the robotics, the technology kind of work alongside. So, you know, you think if you go into, for example, a fast food restaurant and we've seen this right, if you walk in, I think it's McDonald's and I can place your order on the key Oscar, whatever, and then you go up to the counter. And maybe, you know, the robots on fries, but for me, I still want that person at the counter to greet me and smile. I still want that, you know, empathy or, you know, that, hey, genuine apology if my order is wrong, right, I think, you know, it's ironic because as we talk more about automation, those soft skills are becoming more of a hard currency that we're chasing. So I don't necessarily know if he needs to move the robots to the back of the house. I could get this is where we are folks, you know, I don't think we have to keep the rope robots a secret. They're here. And again, they're designed to make our lives easier, more accessible, more efficient, all the things, but like how cool would it be to again, really press upon people, what is the customer, the patient, etc. And I think that's the way we're going to do it. And I think that's the way we're going to do it. And I think that's the way we're going to do it. And I think that's the way we're going to do it. And I think that's the way we're going to do it. Again, still in the driver's seat, we all I think maybe have a little bit of fear of like the I will, but we're becoming coming, coming true. And so we still want to see that person. So I don't, I don't necessarily think that the robots need to be in the back of the house. Like we know it's here. Let's, let's just make the most of it in a very responsible manner. I love what you're saying. And I also think that we need to consider that we have such a diverse workforce, for example, in terms of what everyone does, right. There's sitting in a desk, there's customer service, there's, you know, all the things working in a warehouse, driving a truck, looking on a roof of the house, whatever. And I think about where the future of robotics, you should also think that there is the diversity of robotics to, right. So if in fact, you're what you're saying is I want a more human touch with the kiosk, and McDonald's, maybe that's something that they need to look into and build into and say, look, you know, we've got the menu listings, but people do want to, you know, talk or interact or they, they don't want as much. I said, they don't want as much ice in their, whatever. And so the, there needs to be a little bit of ability to look at what the, what the customer wants and figure out how do you do that and whether it's through robotics or whether it's through AI or whether it's through a human, figure out how to mill those into a way that is going to really promote the best of each of those worlds. And you know, because I think about like one of the things that I was looking at as we were researching this topic was, and I'm going through this myself with some elder care was there's like the robots that are helpful to be like a companion. And maybe I don't know Dr. Oktar if you know anything about this. This is not fair to ask you because just because you're doing bionic hands doesn't mean you're robotic hands doesn't mean you know everything about health care and robotic. But you know, as we have an aging community that you know might need like some companionship and it's not that they, you know, but you know somebody to help you like get your coffee in the morning and and bring the paper to you and maybe talk to you and have some information. And that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that exploring all those types of things in today's world. I know that one of the things with a friend of mine had a has a startup in in Palo Alto, and it's around medical robots too. And it's really more about helping people that are in regions and areas of the world that don't have access to a physical doctor, right? But they had a robot doctor with an iPad or whatever it is, you know, and then it's actually a doctor, but he's sitting in maybe in the Bay Area, but this is in Outer Alaska, right, where he does rounds at a clinic through this robot. So there's still something moving around going from, you know, room to room at the Urgent Care Center or whatever. So there are things that like this combined hybrid way of looking at things, but I do think there is a need for empathy and there's also a need sometimes for like a robotic companion to help in certain circumstances. Yeah, and there is so diligent robotics is one of the companies that has the robots in like the hospitals and helping in many of those ways and just like transporting things and getting things where they need to go. But there's another company that we're very familiar with named Andromeda. And they're both based on the Bay. And they are building these humanoid robots specifically to work with elderly populations and give them that companionship and like and be like a fun thing for them to keep them engaged. And it's a little bit still far away from doing dexterous tasks like handing people pills and coughing, but that companionship part is already there, right? And then they're starting from that foundation and then building on from there. When I think that's a smart move because it's starting from that human foundation and then adding continued to add value from that standpoint. And you know, going back to one of the things I was being mentioned earlier, right? And mostly you were touching on this too. I think for a lot of companies, it's going to end up becoming like a branding decision. Like whether you want the robot in the back or whether you wanted to be in the front, like I can imagine a fast food restaurant where the attraction is the fact that it is a robot like serving you, right? As opposed to like a human. But there are going to be other brands that are going to be like, no, we need to still have a human face to this and the robots will be in the back. So I think we're going to see both of those come into fruition. It's just going to be a branding decision on what is the company, what is the vision of the company and how do they want to be perceived by the public? Yeah, sure. Yeah, well, Melissa and Dr. Octoy, you were bringing us back to the human side of things, which is at the heart of our conversation too. Can Dr. Octoy, can you tell it and talk through the psionic hand a little more and explain what it's doing? Yeah, absolutely. So I've got a hear-wikmy right here. And so I've got in the finger wave right movement over here and it's got six motors in it so you can move all the fingers on it. It's the fastest biomechan on the market. It's the first one to give users touch feedback. And so our very first patient in the US is an army sergeant, a sergeant Garrett Anderson, who lost his hand in Iraq in 2005 to a roadside bomb. And he told us that he could actually feel his daughter's hand with this and he wasn't able to do that with any other prosthetic device. Right. And so it's those things in particular, right? It's not just that, oh, we have like this feature that has touch feedback and we've got all these sensors in here. No, it's what is it? What is the value that it brings back to the human user? Right. And then Anderson to be able to feel his daughter's hand, that's why we do what we do, right? That's why people want to buy our hand and get our hand is because it enables them to do these things in their daily lives that bring value and joy to them. And that's why we do it, right? And so this is, I can pop the hand off of this and everything is self-contained inside of it. So we can actually put this on a human. We can put it on a robot arm. We can put it on, we put it on a robot dog, humanoid robots, industrial robots as well too. Intentional design. I love it. And inclusive design. I mean, I love that. And I love that. And we have users, like human users, involved in that process, right? We employ human users of our hand at psionic and get their input all the time on like, what are the things that that would be beneficial to them? Well, and I've seen your technologies growing and leaps and bounds. I saw the generations, you know, starting with, and that's in a remarkably short time. Where do you want it to come from? It's in a remarkably short time. Where do you want it to go? Technology being no limit to what's capable? What's your ideal scenario? Yeah. So I mean, our goal is heading towards the seamless integration between humans and robots. And we just got a grant from the DOD to work on implanted sensors that can go directly in your nerves and your muscles to then control like the individual fingers on the hand. But then when you touch the fingers, right now you feel a vibration, like it's kind of like your cell phone vibrating. But with the nerve implants, we can actually make it feel like the sensation is coming from your missing hand. And that level of integration where the hand no longer feels like it's a tool that's attached to the end of you, but rather a part of your body. That's where we're going with this technology and where we see the next five years heading. Wow. Okay. Well, let's, I think our fix is pretty simple on this one. But let's, I mean, that could be wrong. There's, this is still a complex subject. But if we, if we remember, there's, there's people at every step of this equation. We're not here to be at this stage or in the foreseeable future. We're not here to be replaced. We're here to be augmented and assisted and aided. And it will use the robot robotics and automation for positive things for the repetitive and redundant tasks that maybe are done by people and putting them in an arms way or in hazardous conditions or in vulnerable to injury. Maybe that is a good told say that is a good application of the technology. And there is, there are unspecified but exciting jobs or or application, human applications in the workforce that we just don't know about yet. So we'll, we'll enter into that positively and, uh, and optimistically and there will be jobs for all of us, which is we, we don't know what they're called yet. We don't know what those titles are. Dr. Oktar, I'll come to you last, but we're going to ask everybody if we, you know, put that mindset into place and do we strike the right balance? Are we able to peacefully coexist with our robot companions? Cudero, what do you say? I am optimistic. I am going to say yes, but of course, you know, we need to see how this plays out over the next few years. I think that we are at a very fascinating crossroads, right? When we talk about AI and robotics and what this means for the future of work, I think the real question is who benefits, right? And how do we make sure that the progress that we're making that, I mean, I just, I have goose bumps listening to all the different stories around how we're integrating technology to help people. Uh, but, you know, the thing I think that the general public, uh, who may not be right, you know, down and dirty in some of these topics, is that the fear is, is it going to come at the expense of people? Is it going to come at the expense of my job, right? And so how do we educate and bring folks along on that ride? I think this conversation, and yes, again, I am biased, but I think this conversation around responsible AI and robotics and responsible innovation and all those other terms, arguably, one of the biggest social responsibility opportunities of our time. Opportunity, you know, the organizations, whether it's healthcare, education, corporations, whatever, uh, there's an ethical obligation here to think beyond profit, to think beyond efficiency metrics, and really look at how is the technology that you are developing, how is it making the lives of your customers, and the people more broadly than that better? And again, we've heard such amazing examples just on the podcast here. Obviously what Dr. Oktar is doing is absolutely amazing you see. Impact is literally embedded in the product. That is more of what we need to see. And I think that is what we'll start to put folks at ease that these tools, these robots, this AI is not here to eliminate. It is here to help and to augment. So optimistic yes. Great points, Kadira. And I have no problem trusting founders that with a vision and the technology, we also have to trust, you know, global billion and trillion dollar corporations to make the right decisions too. So Melissa, what do you say? I agree wholeheartedly with Kadira. This has been just a really inspiring podcast. I love Dr. Oktar your story and what you're doing is just undeniably amazing. I believe it's really about championing a culture of curiosity. And I think I've heard that from all of you in terms of curiosity, like Dr. Oktar, about like the different ways you've been transforming your hand, right? You know, and listening to the people who are using it and what they would like more, more or different. And so I think that's a big key fix for companies today. And that's just in general. That's not even about robotics. That's about everything that they should always kind of come from it from a point of curiosity. I love the idea around collaboration, around augmenting around augmentation, using those words, but really leaning into them with a mind's eye to responsibility, curiosity, learning, re-skilling, all those types of things. And really looking at the humanity of it, I love that we've all talked about that, bringing it back to the robotics can be a great thing for us as humans. And as well as can help to transform what our arc and stories are as human workers and leaders, et cetera. And so I really think that there's a lot of optimism going forward. Great. Thanks, Melissa. Dr. Oktar, we've seen all the positive aspects and implications of the technology. Do we squash some fears? Are we optimistic about the future? How are we feeling? I'm always optimistic about this future. I'm a little biased on that. And to be completely honest, I mean, with every technology, there's going to be the negative side and the positive side. I mean, the internet, when that revolution came, there's always bad and good. It's a tool and how do you use it? I would argue, though, that with respect to something like the internet, I feel like it's a net positive, as opposed to a negative. And that's why I'm also hopeful for that kind of revolution to happen in robotics. And I think a lot of it will come down to just people getting more use to it as well too. And so we always do open houses, right? I mean, you came and saw like all the different hands that we had at our last open house. We're having a nap on Sunday. And the thing is, is that what's always super exciting to see. And Melissa, this is going back to your point on like coming approaching this from a lens of curiosity is that when kids come and they see like the humanoid robot moving in our offices, they're just like, wow, that's so cool, right? And I'm just thinking in my head, like when I was a kid, I never saw a good human robot. And what a world that we live in right now. And so I think while for a lot of the adults, this might be a little bit scarier. I think for the kids who are growing up in these environments that are going to be used to be like, oh yeah, like I've grown up with robots. Like I've seen this like on a daily basis. In 20, 30 years, there are going to be like, this is just commonplace. So I think it's going to be an optimistic future. And I think we're going to see a lot of collaboration between humans and robotic devices. And a lot of that's going to be happening with this newer generation that was growing off. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, I saw firsthand like kids take a look at that. You know, it's the psionic hand and the robot and it's if that's yeah, it's new new technology now. But if that's what they grew up with, that's going to like you said, it's just going to be their world, the world they live in. So I will let's hope it's a good one. That's going to do it for this episode. And we fix it. You're welcome. We are about to unplug and cool our circuits. But before we do a warm round of appreciation to our guest, Dr. Adele Oktar, Dr. Oktar, how can everyone listening find out more about what you're doing and about psionic? Yeah, so they can go through our website at www.sionic.io. So that's psionic.io. Excellent. Thank you again. And we'll link to psionic and our socials as well for those who want to see it as something to see. Melissa and Kadeera, thank you. I'm so glad you're real people. We can see the end of season two from here. So for everyone listening, the countdown is on. Don't miss an episode. If it's a company that's been on your mind and you have a fixed to propose that's your own fix, now's the time. Get those in. Send us a voice note to myfixatwefixitpod.com. That's myfixatwefixitpod.com. We promise we'll get to as many as we can on the season finale in a few weeks. But don't sleep on these next episodes either. We'll be back with an all new one next week. And we will see you next time. We hope you enjoyed this episode of We Fixed. You're welcome. We go into every episode somewhat cold and nothing we say should be construed as legal advice, financial advice, or anything that would get us in trouble. All trademarks, IP and brand elements remain property of their respective owners.