This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story? Everything's been made to fit. The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed. What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe? Oh my God, I think she might be innocent. Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's Jill Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter Podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today I'm talking with my dear friend, Krista Williams. It can change you in the best way possible. Dance with the change, dance with the breakdowns. The embodiment of Pisces intuition with Capricorn power moves. So I'm like delusionally proud of my chart. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Hi, I'm Naima Raza. Like all of you, I have been living for Curse of America's Next Top Model. So to help with your and my withdrawal from season one, Bridget invited me to share a little bit about my weekly show, which is called Smart Girl Dumb Questions. We'll play you a taste of a recent episode I did with Esther Perel, the renowned psychotherapist and relationship expert, as we unpack why love feels so hard these days. Have a listen, and if you like it, you can get the full conversation by searching for Smart Girl Dumb Questions wherever you get your podcasts. And you can follow or subscribe to the show for new episodes every Tuesday. Astaire Perel, thank you so much for being here. Pleasure to be here. For those of you not familiar with Astaire's work, she's written two international bestsellers. She's given TED Talks that have been viewed over 50 million times. She's a keen observer of what's happening in our relationships, not just in our love lives, but at work, in all the ways that we relate to one another. I think you're really an expert on humans. On what humans do to each other, experience with each other, and long from each other. And long from each other. I want to know what you long for. We're going to get there. I have questions for you about why is it harder to fall in love as time goes on? I can't tell if it's age or if it's this modern life or if there's something about me. And I also want to start, though, with something a little bit nostalgic, which is the first time we met, because we're also friends, Esther and I. I have an image of us walking out of a building on the street, but what were we doing in that building? Was that the Spotify building? Yes, but what were we doing there? We were chatting, and we were chatting off the record. and yet I wanted to play some tape from it today. Is that okay? Oh, wow. Of the record that you recorded me? Well, I remember I asked you for your permission, but it was for my own notes. It was for my own notes. Go ahead. And I kept it. And if it's okay, I'll play it for you. And if you don't like it... My curiosity is odd. I know. This is the whole point of the show. Smart girl. Dumb questions. We are wanting something that is at the opposite of where we are living. When you live in Pakistan, when your mother lives in Pakistan, because you're already the generation that has been moving, and so you are super rich and fascinating and fucked up. Because you are constantly negotiating. It makes you the most pertinent global citizen and an amazing journalist. But you are constantly translating between different value systems. Whereas your mother, she knew what was expected from her as a wife, as a mother, as a woman, as a daughter. and as a pious person. The rules was clear. The rules were clear. The norms are clear. The expectations are clear. There's a lot of certainty here. Very little freedom. There's a lot of freedom here and very little certainty because everything now has to be negotiated. Everything that was a rule has become a conversation. Everything that was a rule has become a conversation. What do you think hearing that? I still think like that. I think that one of the most interesting shifts that has taken place in the realm of relationships is the shift from relationships that are defined by duty and obligation, by loyalty and community, to relationships that became defined by feelings rather than values, and by personal authenticity rather than loyalty. And I think that the majority of the world is still living with the first model but there are so many people on this planet you are one of them who are constantly straddling boat And the reason I said to you all of this it all coming back The reason you told me I fucked up Yeah sister No I didn I said I mean confused is probably better No it great It's rich. It's very layered. It's, you know, it's because that same weekend you were going to Washington to visit your father. And I said, how much do you live between these two worlds? You know, the world where you had very little freedom with a lot of clarity and certainty, and the world where you have a ton of freedom, but you are often ridden with self-doubt and with uncertainty as we are today here in the West, especially when it comes to our romantic relationships. So I don't know that one is better than the other. I love that. And I love that you still think this way because this was seven years ago. I was like, here's Esther Perel, this, you know, you were really on up at that time as well. I think your career was like, you still are, but that was like, you were taking off in a way. And that was the first year. Yeah, first year of that takeoff. And I thought, I really appreciate it. I was like, oh, she basically diagnosed me. But she also diagnosed a lot of our society. Because it isn't just about international and cultural. It's about the way in which the role of a woman has changed tremendously between a generation. And I guess my first question for you is, has feminism fucked us? Has this idea of this changing role of women in some way put us in this tension? between this old world and this new world, and in this constant sense of negotiation and self-doubt. I absolutely wouldn't say that it has fucked us up. I think that that's not the way I think. I think it's an extremely important movement in the history of people, of humankind, for men and women, and everybody included. So, but I do think that change happens in multiple phases. in multiple phases. You can make a declaration, you can change the law, you can open doors, but what follows in terms of the intricacies of the experience takes more than one generation. You know, every time I want to be critical of feminism, I only have to think about the places where women have zero voice or power or protection. I have to think about my own grandmother, who, you know, the gap between where she was and where I am. I have to think even with my mother and how she was a full-time working person. We lived above the store, so I saw her working morning and night. The store was open some days till nine o'clock. She came upstairs, she cooked her two meals made from scratch, and there was no complaint. But her aspiration inside was that, is there a different way? Is there a way that she didn't have to carry some of the burdens that she was carrying? And then came the next generation, which began to say, if I do all these things, you partner, you should do those things too. And then came my generation, which is basically the designer generation. I get to design my relationship, but that demands that I know what I want. You know, authenticity and to be true to ourselves is not an easy thing to come by, and certainly not in your 20s. Right. So when you say what's changed, you know, in the 60s, 80% of people in their 20s in the United States were married. Today, in 20% of people in their 20s are married. I don't even think 80% of people in their 30s are married. But that means that, you know, our parents' generation saw marriage as a cornerstone experience. I meet you and together we build the foundation of our life. We have developed the capstone experience of marriage. Marriage or committed relationships, it doesn't matter. But the capstone thing means I've already developed, I've already built myself, I'm already on a certain track, I have an idea of what I want, where I stand in the world, and you come as a confirmation of who I am. You come to help me preserve my hard-won identity. Yeah, and so much of our culture is like self-help, self-love, self-care. Yeah, a bit too much self in front of every word, I would say. Yes. What word would you put there instead of self? Other. Other. Others. You know, I think that the over-index, the over-emphasis on the self at a detriment of our ability to actually think about others is not necessarily helping us at this point. Right. I see this shift that you're talking about from the other to ourself, and I think about it a lot, especially because of my cultural roots. And as you said, I went to visit my father. And after my father passed away, I wrote a whole piece about how obligation gives. It doesn't just take, it gives a lot. But I also think that there's this real nostalgia. And I think that we need more people in that sense like you. It's very natural for you to write that piece. But in fact, it's not a natural piece for others who know you to read. And it puts them in front of another dimension. you know obligation is not hot at this moment it's not popular right um authenticity and personal truth and honesty is much more in you know and we will forego our relationships at this moment in order to preserve this authenticity and what you're saying is a relational model which i think we could really use hearing a lot more about because it directly connects to everything else people want to discuss about loneliness. Right. Except- These things are connected. Except, I think, like you said, like you diagnosed the first time we met, it extremely challenging because I have this other orientation I want to be you know dutiful and I want to in many ways model parts of what my mother has done But I also have this real tension and expectation and experience of being a highly independent, individualized, you know, person in this world with a lot of freedom, a lot of choice. So that's why I asked the question, did feminism fuck us? I ask it partly rhetorically, but I also think there's this changing role of women that is objectively good and yet hasn't been captured and really dealt with as a society for what you're saying. It's going to be multi-generational for it to be absorbed. Correct. It needs to metabolize. But I think if you're asking about the foundations of changing the dynamic between the roles, you know, I mean, I came to hear you do a leader dialogue or a debate recently about masculinity. Yes, at a comedy cellar. What was at a comedy cellar, right? And the interesting thing is that the person started to talk by talking about the women's revolution. And that revolution actually hadn't just changed the life of women, but it had actually changed the lives of men. And it gave birth to a very, very important development, which is the making of modern fatherhood, which is a huge, But we don't talk about that in terms of the man's movement. We've decided that the women had a revolution and the men have not had it yet. But we do know that- Do you think they've had it? Have men had a revolution yet? Like a feminist revolution, but for men? I think that women have had about 50, 60 years of examining their lives and their position in this world and their aspirations and rights and narratives. And I think that men have not had it in as systematic a way. There are pockets, but they have not. And I think that in that sense, the restrictions are much stronger on the men. Does there need to be a masculinity revolution? I don't think of it as a revolution. I think that everybody stands to gain from revisiting taboos, rigidities, set norms, and constraining and constricting narratives roles. What's wrong? I mean, it's kind of an obvious thing. Why wouldn't we? And I think that it would change the lives of many. But that's a point of view, right? Is status quo something that must be preserved? Or is there something inherently good in revisiting social norms? Well, right now, it seems like we're in a moment of like reckoning with social norms. Because I mean, I'm sure you've read a lot about the trad wife revolution or the kind of interest in... It's not a revolution, come on. Yes. Okay. The trad wife trend. Yes. The trad wife trend. The kind of women looking for a guy in finance, six, five, et cetera trend. Do you see any of these as, like, are these extremely nostalgic? Are they reactions to our time? How do you make sense of these gender role, like reassertions? Every time you go to see an exhibit on degenerate art. every Tuesday for me, yes. I mean, there have been amazing exhibits of that. You get a sense as to what was considered degenerate. And one of the first things that was considered degenerate is gender roles that become more fluid. And what was considered degenerate was kind of a blurring between fiction and reality. And what was considered more fluid, you know, it's it. So the opposite of that is that you then look at what was the art that was actually revered. And it was a table of people around, you know, all impeccably dressed with a woman who is serving the whole clan of the family and who finds meaning in that subservience. And there is order, there is clarity of roles, there is hierarchy of gender. And that is extremely comforting. So I don't know that I would call it just nostalgic. I think that wherever you have rises of authoritarianism, anywhere in the world, it is accompanied with a redefinition of rigid gender roles, traditional gender roles, because if you redefine the role of the woman, you redefine the role of the man. Right. They are interdependent. The trad wife does not exist without a counterpart. She's always accompanied by. That makes it sound like it's something that's happening, but I think women are lusting for something. I think there's a sense of like, I kind of think- They may participate in this. It's not that it is imposed on them, but it is related to a recreation of a certain social order that is broader than just gender, and it comes with authoritarianism, autocratic regimes. The same thing happens around sexuality. I had a conversation with Yuval Harari, and I'll never forget the first question he asked me is, why does every authoritarian regime come with an instant repression around sexuality. It's messy. And authoritarianism doesn't like messy, blurred lines, blurred roles and all of that. Trad wives is very clear. You know, you've defined it to me, the way she dresses, she cooks, she bakes, she's- You can picture it with the work. Meaning, you know, the whole, and that art exists. I mean, it's very interesting to look at it historically because it brought a sense of structure, order. Everyone knows their place. Isn't it also like a bit what you said, what is considered degenerate at the time is like an opposition to whatever it is. But the degenerate is always considered the same thing. The blurring is considered degenerate. The blurring of genders is degenerate The blurring of hierarchies degenerate So it not like this it not like trad wives are degenerate because they pushing against the current generation It always degenerate No no no What is considered not okay is kids who think that they have too much importance rather than they are little ones that are very nicely obedient and dressed and stand by you like this. You know, I wish everybody else wishes their kids would stand like that nicely next to them. Everybody is in their place, which makes it easier for others to move them. Right, to control the system. Yes. So there's also this other narrative right now that men are being commoditized. Did you watch the movie Materialist? Yes. Okay, what did you think of the Materialist as a concept? The relationship, not the film, but the idea for those- That it's all in the math? Yeah, it's all a transaction. It's all in the math, yes. You agree that that's how our culture looks at it? I think that there is something about that in our culture, yes. I think this is consumerism, marrying romanticism, becoming romantic consumerism. Yeah, that's- It's emotional capitalism. So the idea, I mean, the way the film, for people who haven't seen it came out- He's a 10. He's a 10. He's a unicorn. She's a six. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's just amazing. Everyone has a number. And then to promote the film, they put a stock price ticker literally at the, the New York Stock Exchange that had men their height and their salaries and they were running them up and down as if it was a commodities exchange. It is terrible. Do you think that sex has become commoditized these days or not sex, the act of sex, but relationship has become commoditized, consumerized, you say, and then... Yes, I do. And who is the commodity these days? Is it? People. Men? Is it more women? Everybody. I mean, you know, the concept of emotional capitalism is an interesting crossover, right? Because what happens is that on the one hand, you have all these psychological terms that have entered the business world. And we talk about psychological safety and we talk about authenticity and we talk about vulnerability. But on the other hand, you have an entire business mentality that has entered romantic love. Right. You know, and we're going to hedge our bets and we're going to negotiate the best deals. And in the midst of that, we're going to somehow find love. but we are bringing in an enormously transactional what will satisfy me what is on my list what am i looking for and when i don't like it i dump i ghost i follow i go on to the next and i swipe and these disembodied experiences make you forget that there's actually a human being on the other side and soon maybe there won't be a human being people are having romantic relationships with their their AIs now. They may. Yes. Would you all things equal rather date in 1985 or 2025? Oh. All right, Curse of ANTM family, a little cliffhanger there for you. Esther's answer, by the way, really surprised me. So if you want to hear it, search for Smart Girl Dumb Questions wherever you get your podcasts. And you can start listening around minute 19 so you don't feel like you have to start and listen to the whole thing all over again. And by the way, please follow of Smart Girl Dumb Questions. New episodes of the show drop every Tuesday. And you may love my conversation with Brooke DeVard when I ask her, is beauty just capitalism? Or with Tamsyn Fidel when I ask her, what's a woman's prime? Or with therapist Ellen Vora, because we talk about if everyone has anxiety, does anyone have anxiety? And if you have dumb questions you want answered, please email me. I'm Naima Raza 101 at gmail.com. Great to meet you guys and hope to see you on Smart Girl Dumb Questions. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story? I've just been made to fit. The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed. What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe? Oh my God, I think she might be innocent. Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's Joe Interstein, host of the Spirit Daughter Podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today I'm talking with my dear friend, Krista Williams. It can change you in the best way possible. Dance with the change, dance with the breakdowns. The embodiment of Pisces intuition with Capricorn power moves. So I'm like delusionally proud of my chart. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.
