Building Competent Boards: Stewards of the Future

It's our job to dig risk. It's our job to ensure that we look at that broad picture. It's our job to think done thinkable. It's our job to ask the questions and to say, I did all I could. My duty of care to get all the information I could. Welcome to the special English edition of Dekorsa Neustadt, a German podcast series by Zabille Bar, in which she talks to pioneering leaders who, inspired by the World Economic Forum's great reset initiative, create revolutionary projects that actually do make our world smarter, greener and fairer. Today I welcome Helle Bank Jorgensen, the founder and CEO of Competent Boards. Competent Boards offers the much-praised global online, climate and ESG competent boards, designation and certificate programs, with a faculty of more than 180 renowned international board members and executives. Helle has a 30-year track record in turning ESG risks into sustainable and profitable business opportunities and works with many global Fortune 500 board members. She has been awarded the Global Impact Award and named one of five people in ESG to look out for. She recently published the Amazon bestseller Stewards of the Future, a guide for competent boards. Besides being a board member, she serves on many influential panels, like the World Economic Forum's Expert Network for Corporate Governance and Leadership. Good morning, Helle Bank Jorgensen in Toronto. Let's dive straight into the programs you offer and why board members should sign up rather sooner than later. Well, first of all, warm thank you for having me. And well, the world is changing, right? So we, if we look at it as board members, we have a fiduciary duty. We have a duty of care. We have a duty of care to actually make sure that we understand all of the matters that are impacting the business. If we are not informed about the environmental issues, the social issues, the geopolitical issues, all of the governance issues, how can we make informed decisions? How can we actually help that company be resilient? So that's one, right? From a company point of view, basically our job as board directors would be to ensure that we can oversee, we can ask questions, we can look a little bit into the future. What I'm saying is that we provide insights so you can provide oversight and foresight. But that's kind of like the company point of view. Then I think we as board directors have a larger responsibility because our job is actually also that for the long term. Unfortunately, we're seeing CEOs perhaps not being in the position as many years as we usually did. So the board of directors are the ones that are actually the continuing force of that company. They're the one who at least approve the strategy, I would say, should be involved in ensuring that the strategy is the right one. Again, to do that, you need to understand the environmental, social, governance, climate change issues, etc., geopolitical issues and continue on that. So that wider responsibility and you were kind enough to talk about my book, Stewards of the Future, a guide for companies and boards. And that is exactly what I'm trying to say. Okay, we need to be stewards, stewards of the future. And with that comes all the stakeholders. So if we think about our company, yes, we have shareholders. We also have our employees. We also have our suppliers. We also have our customers. We also have society. And what world do we want to see in the future? That's where we as board directors actually have. I'm looking at this, you know, larger responsibility. Look at us as qualified, competent board directors that should be reelected. We need to have this inside. I mean, this is not nothing new. If you look back, you know, things have been changing. If you say nowadays that, well, we as board directors do not know anything about cybersecurity, I'm quite sure that most would go like, okay, are you fit for that job? So also, and that's why we do the designation and certificate programs is to say that when you go through that program, you will be able to then show the shareholders, you know, other stakeholders that you actually have applied your curiosity, applied your way of saying lifelong learning. And now in a situation where, you know, you're more fit for the future and therefore for both the companies that you serve at now, but also future companies. I have many of those alumni that now say of the competent boards programs that says the fact that they have the designation, they have the certificate, that opening doors to more boards because board of directors companies know that they need to have this knowledge now. We can't wait, both for our own sake and then some would say also for our children. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I looked at your ESG programs and from what I realized, it's basically based on 12 topics from risks to opportunities and human rights and multi stakeholder engagement. Can you tell us a bit more about the content and perhaps, I don't know, pick one or two topics to talk about more about in detail? Well, I can, I think you mentioned that we have over 180 faculty members that are actually help both informing the content as well as delivering the content. So those, you know, are board members like Jim Hakeman's NABIT that serves as the chair of Siemens and others also from both from Germany, but from all over the world. Yeah. And so, so you're right, we have the 12 topics in the ESG program, then we actually have a climate program that goes more in depth and climate. But in the ESG, composite and forest designation and certificate program, we start very wide saying what are the risks, what are the opportunities in this world in a geopolitical setting? I mean, it looks very different now and it did, unfortunately, a year ago. Right. And then we go into how do you think done thinkable? How do you deal with all of this? How do you stay be resilient? The sustainable development goals that are the 17 biggest paint points of the world, but also the 17 biggest opportunities. And then as you say, we go into all of these more subject climate, more kind of like ESG from perhaps a financial point of view, human rights, cybersecurity, responsible use of data, diversity, equity, inclusion, goes into shareholder and stakeholder engagement and disclosure, tax investment and pay. So how are we dealing with all of this from an incentives point of view? Human rights, supply chain issues, I mean, I can continue and then of course, what is what does the future of good corporate governance look like? So, you know, I'm sure you can put in and see so people can see this 12 topics. If I dive into them, just to give a few. So what we did and as I said, we had these over 180 fantastic board members, executives, experts, investors, et cetera. We have we have captured their knowledge, their insight in both in interviews where I'm asking them questions and really to get what are the gold nuggets. Where is it that they failed? Where is it that they succeeded? What made them succeed? So by doing that, we can share, hopefully, some learnings that a lot of us can learn from. People will also get, you know, a toolbox, I call it, whether what are the tools for each of these different areas, you know, when it goes to reporting, you know, so much at the moment, which also means that we are on a constantly basis, updating all of this material. You then have in terms of a case, a real case that we that we discuss during the sessions. So that's kind of like the, you can call it preparation materials where you have the opportunity to study in front of your of your computer, getting all of that inside or, you know, listening to it. If the if that's what what you prefer reading, if that's what you prefer. And then we have these bi-weekly sessions where we invite some of these faculty members to actually come and have the discussion with a relatively small cohort. So we just had Thomas Tune-Annesen, who is the chair of of ERSTED joining us. We had just to be an energy sector because that's so hot in the moment. We had chat holiday, who used to be the chair of Royal Dutch Shell. And and but for each topic, we have who are the who are those that I believe can share inside that others can benefit from. So after those 12 sessions, you know, you of course also build a network with not only those that are common and share their inside, but also with your your fellow cohort, which means that you have a global cohort of of peers now that you can pick up the phone, call, communicate with and say, you know, what are we doing in this area? So we have people on from Australia, from Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Philippines, India, different parts of Africa. Of course, many European countries, Latin America and North America. So as I say, from time to time, we have all all continents apart from Antarctica, which is probably a good thing. So so what I'm hoping is that we, we, you know, because we're meeting every second week, you get the chance to actually reflect. And it's, you know, it's a time commitment, but it's not a huge time commitment. And hey, from an environmental point of view, we're saving CO2 from a financial point of view, you're saving money because you don't need to travel different places. But you actually get that feeling of being in a room. And when you discuss the cases in smaller rooms, so you really build that network, then you do have an exam at the end, because I want to make sure that those shareholders and end stakeholders that afterwards says that you have the designation, the certificate actually know that this is, this is something that people have worked for. And, and, and you can, if you go in and look at the testimonials, you can see that people are very keen on telling that they actually worked for this. So, so it's, it's definitely both the certificate and designation, I think is, is now seen both as boards and investors as something that spell quality and spell that these people that have gone through the program have to have the insight and the foresight so they can provide the oversight, but actually also direct the company and direct management into, into the future that is very uncertain right now. But, but, and then I should say now, from, from a board of directors point of view, we have a dissimilar program for, for management for business leaders. But we keep those in two different tracks as board members like to kind of like make sure that we have that, that oversight perspective from there and from the management and others, the more management perspective. Long one there. Yeah, from, yeah, from what you say also, it feels like you created your own ecosystem. Well, you, you write, I mean, it's fantastic to see now the alumni and we actually just had in person get together from all over the world, right? So, so people in Hong Kong meeting people in London meeting people in London, I mean, well, I think that was out of Lima meeting, perhaps even also in San Paolo. I have to be careful here. Toronto, Vancouver, I think we had people in New York. Right. So, so you have, you know, people from all over the world. Are they coming with different issues when they do your course? They, yes. And that is, I think, perhaps one of the very valuable things that I frankly had not thought about when I, when I started this journey. Because so one thing is that you're informed by the, by the faculty, but clearly the students, if we can call that. From all over the world, they come with their own reality. So, so, you know, Australia, when flooding in Australia, you know, we have people that there we had one actually from Ukraine. That joins. So you get the, you get the, what's the situation in a country right now? And of course, also, what are the different political situation in different countries? Where are we in terms of anti-corruption? I didn't actually say that before, but anti-corruption in secretary is also one of, one of the modules. And clearly, you have different situation in different parts of the world. And again, by, by having that global network, you start seeing, okay, what about this done different places? What, what to do and what not to do? Because as some are saying, hey, if you start that journey, it's very, very hard to say stop in terms of starting with, you know, in, in corruption. So, so getting those advice also from people in other countries that you might be thinking about, you know, doing business in and having contacts in those countries. So yes, they bring, of course, from the different industries, I should say, there's also, you know, people from from different industries, their own country, their own region perspectives. And, and then they're eager to learn from each other. And I think that's that that's the mindset that I'm, and I can tell you some, some after going through the program have said to me, this made me think like a global human being. Which is, yeah, fantastic, actually. Well, I guess that's hopefully we all do, but we all know that when we are in that situation around the boardroom table, and if you don't, if you don't have that broader view, if you don't have that, you know, we can call it diversity of thought or mindset. Well, we are very good at looking at the facts in front of us and making decisions, not really thinking about what are the consequences, the human consequences, the environmental consequences. And if we don't think about that, that's going to come back and bite us. Because, you know, nowadays, I'm going to say the younger generation, that's you. But I guess also us a little bit older will say, no, this is not, this is not what we want. We want a world we can, you know, not only survive in, but strive in. We want a world where our children and our grandchildren don't come and say, okay, I hope you had fun while you were polluting, while you were doing all of these other things, because now they have to be the ones bringing all this back. Right. So, so I think there is just opening our eyes to what are the consequences? What are the outcome of our decisions? And actually, going back to my book, one of the things I'm bringing up there is actually an indigenous principle, the seven generation principle, saying whatever, whatever action we take, what consequences will that have seven generations from now? That's a long time. But we do have a lot of companies at the moment who says, let's let's look at our 2050 goals. Right. And if we look at our 2050 goals, I'm all for it. Let's have that vision. Let's make sure that we know what world we want to live in. But we then need to bring that back and say the decision we make today, tomorrow in a year from now, five years from now, how are we going to make sure that have both the right short and the right long term impact? Actually, another chair, the former chair of Unilever, Michael Tresco, that once long time ago is also part of the faculty said to me, it's not only about long term, it's about making the right short term decisions to get to the long term. Yeah. Do you think we have to differentiate here between the economic systems? Isn't it especially our model in the West, our economic model, that has to adapt to a longer term view again? Oh, that is one of those good guys. We can move on to another question. I don't know. I mean, I think we have, I think we have long term thinkers and doers all over the world. I think we have incentives that are pushing us towards short term that we need to figure out how do we ensure that those short and long term are connected. I think we have situation, look at Europe, look at the world right now in terms of inflation, in terms of geopolitical issues, in terms of staying warm or staying cool, depending on if we're in the summer or the winter. In terms of energy, I think we have so much that this is not easy. There will be dilemmas and we will need to look to see how do we ensure that we are not sacrificing the long term for the short term, but also if we don't get through the short term, how are we going to get through to the long term? So this is not easy. Hey, that's why we have board of directors. It's our job, right? It's our job to take risk. It's our job to ensure that we look at that broad picture. It's our job to think unthinkable. It's our job to ask the questions and to say, I did all I could, my duty of care to get all the information I could. And based on that, you know, made the decisions. And that's, that's the, no one's going to be able to do that. That's the, no one can can ask you anything else. But if you have not included the information, if you're not been informed enough to make your decisions, well, then I think we are in a different situation. I want to move you to another subject. I wanted to coming from your global network, going to the other global network. You spoke to Summer at the World Economic Chrome's new champion dialogue summit. And I remember, because I watched it, you said, we need more competency. Executives need to ask questions. And I think here that that was certainly the core for me. And my question to you would be, what are the right questions? And this is not where I'm going to say, if you look at the book, you have questions after every chapter. So let me not give you all of those, but let me give you a few that I'm, you know, asking also when I'm talking to board of directors and in terms of strategy, etc. I'm saying, you know, what is it? The employees you want. What are their hope and their dreams? Not only today, but in the future. Who are the customers that you want to have? What are their hope? What are their dreams? What do they want to have by? What do they expect from you? In, you know, say three years, five years, 10 years, whatever, right? What about your suppliers? What do you need to actually produce what it is that your customers want? And that the employees are willing to produce? Can you get the raw materials? We have a supply chain issues around the world. If you look at that, that supply, does that come with reputation? You know, does that come with modern slavery? Does it come with all other environmental issues, etc. The next would be who do we expect will finance our company in the future? Do we expect that we can go out and get finance? And if we do not transition to a net zero or net positive or whatever type of business. If we start with a new company, we start with a new company. We start with a new life of business. If you start answering those questions, then you start looking at a different future, I believe. You know, some companies already moving in that direction and already asked and answered the questions. And that's where we need to see those big bets, right? Yeah. The world is going to change. I mean, of course it is. It's always been changing. But if you look at right now in terms of the millennials, you know, those that are a little bit younger than me. How many years out in the future? Well, they will be the main part of those making decisions in finance, in supply, in buying decisions. In already now, where do I want to work? Do I want to leave my values outside the door when I work, when I walk into to where I work? No, most do not want to do that. So how do you capture? How do you capture the imagination? How do you capture the dreams? How do you ensure that you look at what are the fears and really unleash that innovation from those fantastic people that really most of them and more than the older generation is what all the surveys are saying. I would disagree, but you know, I'm looking at the surveys. They want to make sure that they make a positive difference. Then look at another group, women. And women probably also, according to the surveys, looking more into the sustainability issues. They're making 60% of all buying decisions. See, you want to, you know, if you just say, hey, I want to make sure I have a financial viable company. Well, even if you do that, you need to look into all of these other questions I just mentioned. And I'm quite sure if you do that, you'll say, OK, sustainability and giving access to what matters for the supplier. Well, for the employees, the customers and having access to what you need from the suppliers. Because you mentioned the suppliers a few times and the supply chains. We are both well aware of the facts and the numbers. And for example, that only eight global supply chains are responsible for 80% of all CO2 emissions. So do we, what do we have to do to redesign this? Yeah, this dominant. I think it's happening. And I think part of it is curiosity. You know, look for how can we, you know, change some of these and as they say, you know, many of these larger industries, you know, they're looking at it. I think it takes courage. And if you look at a company like Mask, or shipping that says, OK, you know, we have a chicken and egg situation here. We don't have green fuel. So therefore we should not go out and invest in vessels or shipping, you know, the big shipping vessels, I think it called. So let's make, you know, let's say, no, we do go out and invest. And when we invest in that, we kickstart a whole new industry saying, OK, now there is a market to actually produce. Green fuel, right? And I think that's where we need, we need to start rethinking some of those. Very, you know, perhaps a little bit siloed views that we have had. Yeah. And say, how can we, how can we think circular economy? How can we think regenerative business models? And what is that going to mean for the business, but also the surroundings? Yeah. You know, I was actually talking yesterday, I was a board session and I told that 30 years ago, you already started, you already dated me before. But I actually worked for the Danish Steelwork, their first green account, which was the first green account in the world. So really dating myself. But one of the things that was recycled steel. And I said, you know, why are we selling it? What if we just lease it out? So we ensure we get it back at some point. Right. There are different models. I have no idea if this could work in real life or not. And as I said, this was something I've thought about 30 years ago and hasn't happened as far as I know. So it's probably not a viable thing. But we just need to rethink how could and ask the questions. And I think that's perhaps again, going back to the board of directors role. If we as board of directors, you know, say, could we do this in a different way? And the other thing is that there is a lot of smart, I keep on saying younger, but smart, smart people out there that are starting new businesses, starting new ideas. And perhaps, you know, we also as board of directors and as business leaders need to say, okay, you know, are there some startups that have some innovative ideas that we can do? We can support, not high up just to say, oops, we don't want that, but actually support. Yeah. Which leads me straight to your book, Stewards of the Future, where you say you want board members to think like activists. Mm hmm. So can you, can you give us an example, how they would be able to do that? Think as an activist. Oh, it shouldn't, sorry, be that hard. Right. You know, let's put ourself in the shoes of someone that's looking at our company from the outside. What are the questions they would ask? You have a fantastic slash awful exercise that that that called let's kill the company. Right. If you if you say around the boardroom table, okay, how will we kill this company? You know, you start getting in all the ideas flowing on on, you know, what could that be? Then you use you look at it from from an activist point of view, and that could be activist in many, many ways as you know, Chris James, I just mentioned in your number one, it could be from a strategic view. It could be there's a lot of clearly from an environmental view, there's social views, biodiversity, etc, etc. But you start you start getting all of those risks that perhaps already should be, if you ask me, in the risk register and the enterprise risk management system. But often, perhaps if they're there, not always get to the board of directors. You know, we have the World Economic Forum, which talked about before, we have the yearly risk report there. And of course, you can't have all the risks in the world. And of course, I mean, I've been joking from time to time, it's not really a joke. But I say, look at number 10, and then just, you know, make sure that you put that up as number one, because that's where we had the pandemic. And unfortunately, that's where we had, you know, last year in terms of geopolitical issues. I'm not I'm not sure if I can do it three years in a row, but let's see to in January, if we if we look at number 10, and that will be the future. That's that's that's that's to the side. But but we need to make sure we as board directors, we management, we as society, looking at all of these risks. At least you have had put something thought in your head and you start, you know, our fantastic brains start to say, oh, OK, how are we going to deal with a situation like that? But if you don't even know it, if you don't have an even thought about it, yeah, how will you deal with it? That's why that's why, unfortunately, we're seeing a lot of girls, then we go, something happens and we panic, right? And and someone panicked by putting their heads in the sand and saying, I haven't seen this and other panic by saying, there's way too much and other panics, perhaps by saying, OK, we need to do a little bit of everything. Yeah, that's not really leadership. Right. Yeah, sorry, picking up your panic. Picking up your panic, I think with the whole of the ESG and the SDG topic, yeah, depends on the culture of the country anyway, a lot. But there is some panic among those who missed the train so far. They have now crisis over crisis, a kind of tsunami of crisis. And yeah, and the ESG is moving forward, having an ESG expert or even two on the board. Is that just the beginning? And if it's just the beginning, what's ahead of us? I mean, oh, it's a question, that I'm getting asked from time to time. I believe that, you know, we don't necessarily need experts, experts. Because it's the, in my mind, it's the role of the board. And you want to make sure that you look at the audit committee and the charter of the audit committee and say, OK, we in the audit committee, you know, if risk is part of that, you know, what are the risks? Maybe we have a separate risk committee. But, but, you know, are we really looking at all of these? Are we looking at the reporting data? Are we putting the same scrutiny on that as we are on our financial data? Are we seeing the interrelation between the financial and the what some calls non-financial? I believe it is financial, but sustainability data. Are we looking at what's really a material in that sense? And who in the organization have the responsibility? How do we ensure we're not greenwashing? You know, all of those questions. Then you get to the remuneration. How do we ensure that we have incentives in place? So what we say and all our nice purpose statements and value statements, et cetera, are actually being lived. And, and I know we many of us say, well, that should not be something we incentivize. But from time to time, we incentivize actually the opposite. We we incentives in place with, you know, on with good, good thoughts behind it. But we might not have seen the damage they can do. Right. And I think that's where we, we again, as board directors and management, for that matter, right, make sure that we really think through the incentives and therefore the compensation, et cetera. And you can go to the nomination governance committee. You know, again, in our charter, we need to have what does all of this ESG climate, et cetera, et cetera mean? And who do we ensure both in terms of the CEO management team? Who is it? What are the, what is it we need to hire for or guide our CEO and management team for? Or, you know, coach, whatever you want to call it, but also in terms of new people to, to, to join the board. How do we ensure we get, we get that thinking, that diversity of thought around the boardroom table? How do we ensure we have a culture where we actually listen? To each other? How do we ensure that we have that? And, you know, inclusiveness, where we also not only listen to those around the boardroom table, but we listen to the employees, we listen to our stakeholders. We actually have, in the same way as we have shareholder, investor roadshows, we actually have roadshows with our stakeholders. We actually listen to them and understand again, you know, their pains, their dreams, their, what it is that, that they believe in, that's going to inform not only the strategy, but actually the value creation of the company. So, so I think we, we need to have those, you say, ESG expert one or two around the boardroom table. And yes, I think we need to have people that, you know, clearly while I'm doing them, the ESG designation and, and, and certificate programs from, from competent boards. So the climate composite boards, designation and certificate programs is to have people that can actually ask the question that can do that. And in the same way as we have a financial expert around the, in terms of being financial literate, but it do not take away the responsibility for the rest of us to know a little bit about a finance or to know a little bit about ESG, et cetera, especially because this is, I was almost going to say, shattering, that's negative. It's actually shining a bright light on everything we do in the company. If we look at it from the lens of our employees, the lens of our, you know, customers, suppliers, shareholders, et cetera, as I said before, and what is it that they want? I'm, you don't even need to say ESG and climate. It will be there just by definition. So, so, but clearly again, if you don't have the mindset, if you haven't gone through, yeah, I'm saying our ESG competent boards, this nation and, and, and certificate programs, but clearly, I mean, this is more than us, right? If you don't have that mindset, if you don't have that network where you can bounce ideas, if you don't get the latest on what's happening and what could be happening. Yeah. Well, you are behind, right? Surprise. And that means that your company is not getting the best that they could get. Yeah. Yeah. And for example, when, when leaders today, I just put it all under leaders now, when leaders today go to conferences, they come to you, they go to the forum and the mindsets are clear, the targets are clear, everybody is willing and able. Back in the office, they are confronted basically with a harsh reality of resistant views. So what's your message for those who have to deal with those conflicts? I know part of this is communication. And part of this is incentives. And part of it is that this is hard. But if you win, if you win over the, the, the mind, the dreams, if people can see the vision, huge, I mean, we put a man on the moon, right? How did that happen? It started with a vision, started with passion, right? Yeah. We're creating something new that, you know, how did we talked about mask? How did that happen? Right. Oh, someone was saying, okay, this is what we're going to do. And, you know, I think that, that people that, that work at, at mask, and I shouldn't say that, but I think that they are proud. I think that they are saying, okay, I think they bring so much more of themself to the work every day. And again, I shouldn't, I shouldn't put anything words in their mouth. But, but that's what, you know, when I talk to people when they say, well, they can, they believe in the purpose of, of, of the company. And if they, you know, Jim Hageman's Nabis dreams and details, I think that is put a spotlight on the details, right? Yeah. Not enough to have the dream. We need to have the, we need to have the execution of it. And that's actually where I see when people go through the program, like, and a bi-weekly basis, it's enough that you don't, that you actually start implementing it as you go. And you get the time to reflect. Because yes, you're right. If we just come back from something and we're like, Monday morning, now I'm starting, right? And then you look at the inbox and you get your EA coming in with all of these things that you need to do. And people are standing in a queue outside the office because there's this and this and this and this. You know, I'm. Accessorating a little bit, but, but, you know, crisis always going to take the first priority. But that's why we need to have that big saying, okay, how do we put this into the covenant system? How do we put it into the management system? How do we get it to be part of the culture, part of the way we are as a business? And going back to the incentives. How do we ensure that we get all of this in? And how do we do it? Sorry to interrupt. Well, I mean, that's called leadership. And it's called leadership because we can all manage and sorry, I mean, I know in terms of that. But I think we need to go from, you know, manage to we lead. And I think we need to start embracing the different ways that people bring the best of themselves to the table. I know, I mean, I think we're going to see a lot of pushback in one way or another. Some of it is because people can't see the short term. They might say, yeah, that's right. I and I love to do all of this in the long term. But right now I'm freezing or right now I can't put food on the table right now, something else. Right. And I don't trust, which is one of those big awful things. The level of trust to governments are down, which again, perhaps put even more on the shoulder of board of directors and the companies, right? Because the trust actually to business and leadership, let me call it that, you know, are higher. So if we as leaders are now not living up to that, I mean, it's not a best trust level in the world. Well, I guess it is, but it's not that we actually need much more trust. But but if we let people down with greenwashing, with saying nice fancy things, but in reality, not putting the systems in place, the governance, the management systems, all of that in place, incentives. Well, then we're letting all of it down. And that means that people get even more like, well, okay, yeah, good for you. You're saying all of these things. But I can't see it. Yeah. So so leadership, courage, leadership, believing, being out there, not just sitting in our offices, but being out there talking to people, I think it's going to be more and more and more and more important that that we have that stakeholder dialogue, if we can call it that, and engagement, not stakeholder management, we are not managing the stakeholders, we are engaging, we are having conversations, we are benefiting from each other. Yeah, yeah. And I thought it was not a coincidence that your company called competence boards. And when you talked about trust, trust comes foremost with competence. If government leaders don't show competence, there will be no trust. So is there a program for governments as well? Do you have, do you have political leaders coming to your program? I actually do. I actually do. It's with them. What was again, you know, not by design, but I think you have a brilliant point. And it goes not only as a brilliant for those from, you know, more the government side to listen to businesses, because often, you know, they get people visiting them where they have like, well, we want this and this and this and this, right? But perhaps not really fully understand the setting of why they're asks. And especially not clearly on a global basis, because that will be in their country or their region or wherever people are coming to them. So for them to kind of like get that bigger picture and feel the pain points and, you know, again, of the companies and what it is actually the companies want, that can inform, you know, what it is that they're doing. And frankly, from time to time, you know, give them a pat on the back, but also the other way around from the board of directors, from business leaders, also understanding on the other side that this is, it's again, it's a dance, right? Yeah. And if we start, you know, stamping on the feet, then, well, it's not as nice a dance than we could. Long time ago, one of the good friend partner at PWC wrote this book called, Waltzing with the Raptors, right? And that is kind of that, that how do we, how do we ensure that we do that? I don't, I don't want to say anyone is a raptor. But, but kind of like, how do we, how do we deal with, with actually having that dance where it's, it's mutual benefit, etc. So yes, I think, I think you're probably right, we should actually actively engage. I have not done that. It's people are coming from the government side to the program by themselves. So, so that, but that might be, that might be a good for the cruise and new start. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you think about the sustainable development goals came from governments took action and in 2015, 193 states signed the SDGs, which was a brilliant thing. And then, yep. Well, then more and more business actually took over from my point of view. And I see, I think we see now in the last two years or so, we have more than 170 global companies, according to the, to the forum, who signed up for the ESGs, right? So business is pretty much here in the driving seat. Would you go so far to say that the SDGs and ESGs are kind of a global compass for the transformation? You know, if you look at the sustainable development goals, yes, it was the member states of the UN who agreed to it. But the before then, it's actually the world's largest stakeholder dialogue. And I was, I was actually at the global compact at that time. And I had the best sending. Well, I was at the stage while the minister of Canada was presenting. So I was part of the delegation in that. And you can say it's the biggest stakeholder dialogue and which again should give companies a big opportunity to look at it and say, Wow, okay, this is, this is what the world not only want, but also need. And yes, we are unfortunately going backwards on many of them, which you could say, perhaps even have a bigger opportunity. I have like the CEO of Pension Denmark, Token Möyer, he says that, you know, look at the look at the SDG plans or the investment plans, right, from, from different countries. What is it that the different countries, that's the biggest investment catalog you can look at, right? Because these are the things that that from from around the world, we say, okay, this country, we're going to look at the SDGs. These are the things that that from from around the world, we say, okay, this country, we're going to we're going to focus on this and this, etc. But also us as individuals, also us as companies, you know, access to, you know, clean energy, access to water, access to nature, access to education, gender equality. If you look climate action, if you look at them all and it not only the icons, but actually go beyond the icons. I know it's written in a way that's more government, but a ton of companies that look at this and say, how can we translate this also to be part of the strategy. So if you and I would say, you know, I have from time to time where I'm talking to companies and some companies say, well, yes, we have, you know, STD number five, because we are doing something in gender equality and we have this and because and I'm saying like, okay, let's look at the 17 goals. Let's look at where are you, you know, doing fantastic things and you really can have a positive impact. And where is it that you perhaps, you know, have a negative impact on these. And let's make sure that we actually not only focus on the positive, because that's will be called out at some point. You want to look at not all 17 at once. I mean, some might have the resources to do that. Most will not, right? But you will look at it as a strategic tool. But don't kid ourselves and saying, oh, yeah, we're really good at this one tick mark. Let's look at where we're not as good. And how can we be better? And how can we actually get to the world we want, which is the whole agenda 2030. And unfortunately, we are not going to make that for 2030. And we can, you know, at least all say that these are these are the dreams. These are the things that this is what we need access to. This is what the world need in order to be a world we all hopefully can thrive in. I think we need to look at that. And, you know, the alternative, what is that? We already seeing it. We are seeing climate refugees. We are seeing, you know, refugees do wars. We are seeing a lot of geopolitical issues that can lead to even more, you know, both refugees, but also human and your suffering. We're not in a happy place. And I think we need, you know, if there was a time and you know, you have people from time to time that says, oh, if I had lived at that time, I'd have something. Yeah, you live right now. Yeah, right now. So if you have that in you, say, if it where there was a time, well, that time is right now. Yeah. And that's where leaders need to show not only that their confidence and their competence and their courage is enough to take that leadership step into the future. We want legacy. I can promise that. Yeah. What do you think is the price to pay for board directors who refuse to listen to their stakeholders and carry on this usual because they think they will get away with it. What would be short term prediction. I pointed out that Chris James from engine number one, the faculty, I think that they had three new three directors replaced. And so so one part is of course that you will not be reelected and and perhaps not elected to boards. That's that's and that's kind of like a perhaps a more personal thing. Of course, if it's judged that that you haven't done your duty of care, I mean, that comes with that comes with with also some penalties, financials, etc. But if you at some point say, I had opportunity, I had the power. I had the responsibility. But I just didn't do it. Yeah, but what about for companies? Let's say you have a company and and I just make it brief now. I think we need to wrap it up. I extended it already. Just two more questions. If we look at the small, medium sized company and basically they refuse and the supervisor reports and says, well, as long as his share price is all right. Let's let's see how long we can make it. Would they go bankrupt? Would they continue? Were they very lucky? Why don't we just ask the sales to ask what are the when when you get the procurement and discussing with human in those larger businesses that you might be that you might be supplying to what are what are the expectations from them? And if they say they don't care, well, I mean, then go and ask in terms of your insurance provider. And if they say they don't care, they keep on ensuring your for small some please please send me who that is because I have a lot of people that would like to have insurance with them. But at the end of the day, you know, being a small and medium sized business. Yes, there is so much you need to do. You can't put out all of the resources that you have some of the larger corporations put into doing what perhaps is more the reporting and all of that. But you're agile. You're much more agile. There was larger corporations and you don't necessarily need those big fancy reports with nice pictures on. You need to know your business and you need to know what is it that's expected from your business in the future. Otherwise, you will not grow to be that larger corporation. So I don't I think again, we think a little bit too much in silos. ESG, climate, geopolitical issues, whatever we call all of that. It's business. It's strategic business issues. It's not a marketing play. It's basically just saying, okay, the world, our customers want this. Can we provide it? What will our customers want in the future? Can we provide it? Can we have the employees to actually provide what it what it is? I mean, it's it's I make it sound as simple. I know it's not as simple, but but it's not that hard. If we but it's hard if we start saying, oh, now we also need this ESG and climate, etc. And that's so far in the future. We don't have time to look at that right now. Yeah. But why not look at the short term and see, okay, how do we continue to be a successful company that people, our suppliers, our customers, our stakeholders and keep saying all of these words. Well, not only not only keep having as a business partner, but perhaps also will admire and will sell others. Oh, you know, you should try XX company. They're not as large as some of the others, but they're really doing some something that that makes a value to to the other companies. And that's why I'm from time to time, you know, especially the smaller corporations say, don't only look at what it is your customer is asking you for. Also look at what your customers customers asking for, because that's going to come down the pipeline to you. And if you as a smaller company can be the one that starting the conversation and say, you know, dear customer, I saw that your customers, right? So the customers customer are looking for this and this and this. We as a business are actually investing in it, or we actually have a solution for that. So you can go to your customers and say that you actually can be a preferred customer. Oh, hey, now you have a value proposition that's better than your competitors. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you summarized it now that really excellent, you need to know your business. It sounds simple, but that is actually that's actually the key, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, and, and, and you need to know your business in the future and you need to know what impacting your business in the future, because otherwise, yes, that will not be the business in the future. Yeah. So how do we get hella, instead of a fewer hundred board members to learn all the new skills with competent boards, but a fewer hundred thousand? I'm hoping, I'm hoping for the few hundred thousand, both in terms of we are actually on a global scale, scaling up with all the programs in different countries that are more for perhaps more, smaller, medium size in different and then clearly in terms of the, the programs we're running, we're seeing, you know, we're seeing a lot of people joining the program. So those that are interested, please look at the competent boards website. So competent boards dot com and the programs, the faculty, all the testimonials. And also a little bit about my book, Sturge of the Future on that website. Okay, so we, yes, and you can connect with me as well, of course, I mean, on both on LinkedIn, Hella Bank-Djorgensen on Twitter as well. And of course, competent boards are on all the social media and you can sign up to our newsletter. Okay, so I'm not sure. I have more to say, but maybe I, maybe I can get the good team to send you a list of things where people can connect with us. So thanks for much for asking. Thank you very much for taking so much time here. We extended it quite a bit, but and it is really, really, really interesting to dive deep into the subject, but at the same time, to get away from a global view on things. And I think I certainly will take two things with me here. One is trust and competence. And the other one is you need to know your business. And I'm really grateful for that. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed our conversation here. You've been listening to a special English edition of the Gorsa Neustadt, a German podcast series by Zibylla Barton, in which she talks to pioneering leaders who are committed to making our world smarter, greener and fairer. For more information, please visit www.zibyllabardon.com and the official site of the World Economic Forum.