Raising Kids in a World of Smartphones & AI

You know those weeks in winter when everyone just feels on edge, the dark, the cold, the being cooped up, it all adds up. Kids are arguing, routines are off, and you catch yourself thinking, okay, we might need a reset. Look, nothing fancy or dramatic, just a little break from the norm. When I feel that way, I check out Airbnb. I'll filter for a cozy spot, a living room where we can actually relax, maybe a snowy view, maybe a fireplace if we're lucky. On a recent family trip, that change of scenery made such a difference. Having space to settle in, be together, and step out of our usual routine helped us all reset and breathe a little easier. And something I really appreciate, while we're away, we could host our home on Airbnb. So it doesn't sit empty and earns us a little extra income to put toward our next trip. But the thought of handling everything that comes with hosting sounds overwhelming. And that's where Airbnb's co-host network comes in. 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Whether that's support for a newborn, before or after school help, or even care for an aging parent. You can search by experience, read reviews, and find support in a way that feels safer and more intentional than social media or word of mouth alone. And do you know that you can find activities, camps, and daycare on care.com too? For a limited time, you can use the code GOOD35 to save 35% on a care.com premium membership, because when you have support, you can show up as your best self for the people who need you. Managing technology is one of the most popular topics I'm asked about all the time. When should I give my kid a phone? What do I do about phones and bedtime? And what should I do to stay connected with my kid in a house where honestly me and my partner are wearing our phones a lot too? Jean Twinge just wrote a new book, Ten Rules for Raising Kids in a High Tech World. She's researched kids' mental health development technology for years. And I was so excited to read what she had to say. In this conversation, we're going to talk about some of the guidelines she's come up with based on all her research. And as you listen, what I'd encourage you to do is to think about what if this resonates with me? Is it helpful for me to have specific guidelines that maybe I haven't already developed in my house? Does that give me a foundation? So I'm not kind of just deciding one thing one day and another thing a day after that. I know this conversation is going to be really valuable and is going to lead to a lot of important conversations in your own home. I'm Dr. Becky and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. You know that moment when your kid is hungry right now and you're like, okay, what can I grow up that's fast and I actually feel good about? That's why I love Once Upon a Farm. They make delicious organic farm fresh food for kids of all ages with no added sugar or preservatives. And they have so many options. Refrigerated pouches, frozen meals, pantry snacks, plus oat and protein bars. So it's easy to find what works for your kid and your day. Once Upon a Farm was founded by parents and it shows what their real commitment to transparency and doing good for families and the planet. And they're available online and at retailers nationwide. So for your next I Need Something Now moment, use code Good Inside for 40% off your first subscription at Once Upon a Farm Organics dot com. Hi Jean. Hi. So happy to have you on here today. Really really looking forward to talking about your brand new book, Ten Rules for Raising Kids in a High Tech World. I was just telling you I was reading this book and it just brought up so many actually important conversations I think to have with my kids of all ages and really just make so concrete so many of the things that as you know parents are thinking about all the time. So let's just start. Tell me a little bit about kind of the things that led you to write this book like you're in this world of parenting, kids, mental health, technology. Give us a little insight into what was going on in your world that kind of led to this book that we have on the shelves today. Yeah. So I've been researching adolescent mental health and its relationship to technology for about a decade. I published a book in 2017 called IGen which was about Gen Z and I hypothesized that you know that huge increase that was starting to happen in teen depression might be linked to smartphones and social media. But at the time my kids were pretty young. My oldest was 10, my youngest was 5. I have three children, all girls. And you know we hadn't really had a whole lot of oh everybody's got a smartphone yet already or you know I'm mom I really want to be on social media but that started to happen over the next few years. And so I really had this collision between my research life and then my life as a mom of now three teenagers. And that's really where this book came from. And giving talks to lots of parents, even giving talks at corporate events when by the third question it was what do I do about my kids and their technology use? What were some of the themes you were hearing over and over from parents? There were so many. So it was when should I give my kid a smartphone? What's the right age? Or gaming or social media or the phone has just taken over my kids life. How do I set boundaries so that doesn't happen? And then when I do that how do I avoid them having a total meltdown? That's just a sampling of some of the questions. Yeah that question is when I get a lot too. In fact it's kind of a general question about parenting. How do I do X without my kid having a meltdown? And I always say to parents you know the reason it's hard to answer that question is actually because it's just the wrong question. The question needs to be how can I do X and tolerate the fact that my kid is going to have a meltdown because they will because nobody likes to be told no. No one loves it at any age. And even if your parent has your best interest in mind long term we all like gratification in the moment. And so a meltdown or push back or talk back as often as your kid's way of saying I'm not getting the answer that I want to get. And probably so much of quality parenting has to be those moments when you're making a decision for your kid's long term interest knowing they're not going to like it short term. And I think phones and tech as you know it's such a primary example of where we need to do that. Yeah absolutely and I love that philosophy of thinking long term rather than short term. Yeah they might be upset in the moment but you know it's best for them in the long run. And I mentioned this in the book when my kids are really young someone said to me remember you're not raising children you're raising adults and I love that. It's so important. I'm just closing my eyes as I think about and again it's hard to hold on to that every moment and both of us I'm sure as moms too there's certain decisions we make we're like I'm optimizing the now I just can't deal with this. Like I just have to make this moment pass. We all need to give ourselves a pass for those moments. But when we think about patterns how do I set boundaries. How do I you know tolerate my kid being upset with me. How do I tolerate my kid being upset with other people. That is the stuff that makes for super resilient adults right. Adults who are able to deal with not getting their way or not having the thing they want right away or who can deal with disappointment. That's what makes for resilience later on and it doesn't it doesn't just get gifted to someone at age 18. Right. Exactly exactly. Yeah that that's why that parenting philosophy is so important of having those boundaries in place and then not only are you doing what's best for your kids but they're learning how to live within that structure and those rules. Yeah. So this book lays out 10 different rules right. Let's just jump into a couple of them. So I don't know maybe this is an unfair question. I don't know if it's like asking you what your favorite you know your favorite child but if you had to pick your favorite rule I'm going to give you free reign for the first one. Oh that one stats that's easy. Number two which is no devices in the bedroom overnight. Wait that's my favorite. I knew we were going to be friends. That's literally my favorite and it's the thing I say to all parents like starting today you can make that rule even if your kids had it in that room forever like it just should be foundational but you're the expert on this. So why that. Why does that one number why does number two rise to number one. Yeah. For a bunch of reasons. I mean so first is just how fundamental and important sleep is for both physical and mental health and then just how much research there is about phones in the bedroom even if they're off they interfere with sleep. The other thing I love about this role is it's for everyone. It's not just for kids and teens it's for adults of all ages everybody is going to sleep better if the device is out of the bedroom and it's also it's just it's kind of like a no argument zone of you know especially with teenagers. Teenagers are going to push back. That's kind of their job but really you do not need that overnight when you are sleeping you are supposed to be sleeping and we're not talking about like the laptop when I'm doing my homework in the evening or the phone while I'm texting my friends about the math homework. No we're talking about after lights out when you're sleeping. No argument. And what do we know from research like why does that affect kids sleep and probably therefore their mental their therefore their mental health so much just for anyone who's not aware of it. Yeah. So this is something that really stunned me is common sense media did a study where they actually tracked kids phone use and the majority were using their phones between midnight and five a.m. on school nights. So that shows you just how pervasive it is and that shows you immediately how big of a problem this is that it's bad enough for the phone to be there and then the brain is like who that phone's there I wonder what's going on and that compromising sleep but actually waking up in the middle of the night or staying up that late on school night to be on the device just spectacularly bad for sleep which is not getting enough sleep is a huge risk factor for mental health issues as well as being problematic for physical health as well. And I think if we zoom out to adults like we know this you could be going through a really hard stage in your life and feeling down or feeling very anxious. But we all know if you have multiple nights in a row where you're not sleeping it's almost impossible to disentangle what is exhaustion and depletion from what is my low mood. And so whatever I talk to parents and kind of ask them about phones in the bedroom you know when a kid is sleeping I always say there's no shame here we've all done you know whatever we've done up to this point no one has their kind of guidelines with their kids around phones in a place that they feel amazing about. I've never met one parent who's like I feel great about the way I handle it no one. So everyone's struggling and so when parents report to me their kids spiked anxiety or my kids not doing their homework or their academic performance is slipping or they think they're depressed the truth is we have to factor out the sleep first we have to figure out the piece to kind of see what's left over and with the phone in the room we're just not going to be able to separate those you know I often think for me if I knew I don't know like my husband put an amazing ice cream sundae next to my dad at 2am like every night if I knew he was doing that like I feel like my body would have a way to override its sleep mechanism and it would wake up for something that's very enticing to me. Now I think we know social media and the constant stream of information is actually more addicting than an ice cream sundae believe it or not right but if that's next to your kid the sleeping brain right it's not as if there's no kind of in shallow sleep awareness of what's right next to you right it's why we all wake up when we have a big test the next day or when we have a plane to catch like your mind kind of knows what's there and in those shallow moments of sleep you're just that much more likely to pop up and then probably what that study shows I'm checking my phone all of a sudden I can't get back to sleep or I've interrupted sleep and so I'm in complete agreement with you and I often tell parents I have a hard time with rigidity like except for things that are really harmful but this to me is like a rigid rule that I think is really important because it's truly in the name of protecting every child. You know that moment when your kid is hungry right now and you're like okay what can I grab that's fast and I actually feel good about that's why I love Once Upon a Farm they make delicious organic farm fresh food for kids of all ages with no added sugar or preservatives and they have so many options refrigerated pouches frozen meals pantry snacks plus oat and protein bars so it's easy to find what works for your kid and your day once upon a farm was founded by parents and it shows what their real commitment to transparency and doing good for families in the planet and they're available online and at retailers nationwide so for your next I need something now moment use code good inside for 40 off your first subscription at once upon a farm organics.com So what do you say to parents who are saying okay well my kid is x years old my kid's 17 they've slept with their phone in the room for however many years and something I hear a lot from parents I'm curious how you think about it is like it's too late like I can't go back on this decision the cat's out of the bag yeah exactly can't put the genie out of the bow that's the better phrase yeah how do you think about that you're the parent you can always change and you know if you've got a 17 year old who's heading to college in two weeks it might be a little bit of a different conversation but anything short of that absolutely and start now so then at college they'll maybe have that better habit but I mean I just don't I don't buy that argument I think there's always something that you can do if you feel like okay I didn't do that right I should have been doing this all along then change change it and I just want to further empower parents listening because and I think I think about it with a metaphor and then also with um just something very practical so metaphorically right if you think about I don't know I'm flying from New York to Los Angeles and the pilot comes on and says I'm gonna get you to Los Angeles we're doing at five p.m. you're like all right we're going as planned if the pilot then says oh look we're gonna be okay but we need to make an emergency landing in Ohio I just don't know many passengers who are like but you promised Los Angeles my ticket says Los Angeles you're a liar like any reasonable passenger would be like well yes we both thought it was going to be Los Angeles but information has changed right and then if you if we if we laugh at that I think the very practical thing to remember as a parent is we say to ourselves well I can't be inconsistent or I lose my authority when I make these changes you're actually not being inconsistent to me the job of a parent is to make the best decision with the information you have available in that time the truth is information changes so you might have made the decision to allow your kid to have a phone in the room and that was the best you did with the information you had at that time now you have new information and so even though the decision might change on the surface you're actually being remarkably consistent internally in that you're actually continuing to do your job even as the decision changes and I think that that's important for parents to know your consistency is in judge just based on an external decision consistency is actually about attunement to your values and you're being consistent by protecting your kid actually changing your decision on the surface but really helping them with the job you're doing underneath absolutely and I I also just my personally I also think it's totally fine to say I made a mistake and I'm going to try to correct it love that such I mean by the way that's something we should say more often in non-tech areas too I made a mistake absolutely this parenting thing is tricky I'm doing the best I can I learn more and I'm going to go in a different direction the other thing I'm curious what you think is whenever I tell my kid something that I know they're not going to like to hear I often just name that like I'll say look I'm going to tell you something might have a couple hard days in front of us I don't expect you to cheer lead the decision I'm about to give you and then I'm going to change my policy with cell phones in the room here's why because I think I owe you that I've learned it's really disruptive for sleep and even if you tell me you're sleeping well I know it's just an important thing to protect your sleep space and so even though this decision might feel like punishment I promise you it's actually coming from a place of protection it's okay if you don't see it that way probably going to be a couple tricky nights ahead and then I just know we're going to get to the other side and just naming that in advance you're kind of also saying to your kid I know you're going to feel this way I'm not going to change my decision because you feel that way and it's really a message of sturdiness to tell your kid you're doing something to protect them and their short-term protest won't change your mind I actually think that's how we feel comforted by any leader right it's kind of like if you protest the emergency landing oh I have to get to LA you really don't want the pilot to say okay fine I won't you know you actually want them to stick to their guns yeah yeah we're just we're gonna keep flying even though one of our engines is totally out you know yeah exactly no yeah I love and I love that I mean loving but firm we all know that's the best parenting style from decades of research so talk to me next about parental controls because I have to tell you this is something I think is so important and I have found my smartest most capable friends find it extraordinarily tricky to actually put parental controls in place and I think everyone needs a little education and pep talk about how some of this is possible yeah so look I had a hard time with it too I think everybody everybody I know does and some of that is for whatever reason the device-based controls so let's say you know on a back laptop or an iPhone or the google setup on a on an android phone or a chromebook they're often really hard to figure out even if you're educated even if you you know research this stuff even if you look it up online and do you know the step by step directions there's also like kids find workarounds which is extremely frustrating to a lot of parents I hear that when I get parent talks all the time so I've come to the reluctant conclusion that you have to do something else so for a laptop that it's probably gonna have to be third-party parental control software that you buy and I hated coming to that conclusion because I know it's not all parents are gonna be able to afford that I mean the good news is it's for the basic package about 60 bucks a year it's less than a streaming service so that helps and then for phones that you know don't give them a smartphone until they're driving is now the rule in in our house and that's rule number five in the book before that give them a basic phone designed for kids that doesn't have those workarounds so it basically has like built-in parental controls and so I think one of the things you're saying but I just want to make sure is parental controls on a kid's smartphone it's really hard to do it well like kids will find a workaround you know I was talking to a friend about how you still try but yeah right where you can have certain limitations on your kid's browser but if they're accessing a browser within snapchat none of those will apply like that's just one example right yeah and so and kids can get really smart right kind of like they say when there's a will there's a way and they when they want to find a way around it they often will and so I like this two things are true parental controls are important and we should try and it's almost impossible to do them completely effectively which is one of the reasons to laying a smartphone is almost the best parental control that there is it is absolutely exactly exactly and you know a while ago the idea was well you know if they don't have a smartphone then the only other option is a flip phone and you know you can absolutely give your kid that if all you need is for you to be able to contact them and maybe for them to send a few texts here and there but those are they're really hard to text on they stand out so that other kids will know that you don't have a regular phone but I love the phones designed for kids because they can easily they have a keyboard they're sandery phones with just a different platform so they can text their friends and it doesn't stand out and tell me a little bit about the research you've done kind of this no smartphone until you're driving just you know flesh that out for us a little bit yeah so my my oldest is 18 now so when when she was in high school she actually had a flip phone and she was cool with that she is a unique individual and I always say that as a compliment so she was she was cool with that for quite a long time then she started driving she got her driver's license a little bit after she turned 16 and so she'd print out directions you know like it was you know map quest from whatever it was I remember doing this like 2002 but you know then you take a wrong turn and then those directions don't help that much anymore so we realized you know when she was about 16 and a half but four months after getting her driver's license probably a good idea to do the smartphone and that's when it occurred to me she didn't really need the smartphone before she started driving there really wasn't a compelling reason to get her an internet enabled smartphone until then and then just the more I thought about it the more it really did make sense that then they have the maturity also if they have that driver's license or they're getting around a public transportation they're at least 16 then they don't have that choice of oh you know mom and dad are busy they can't drive me I really want to get together with my friends well I guess it'll have to be Snapchat they can get in the car and go see their friends they're more mobile they can kind of have more interactive social life once they're driving and so the kind of the delta between interactive real social life and online interactive social life will inherently be shorter when they have the agency and the mobility you're saying yeah exactly and just you know you think about I mean when do kids usually get funds these days 10 or 11 is that right I'm just curious is most kids are getting smartphones at age 10 or 11 yeah and that that yeah that's that's almost always going to be used to you know regular internet enabled android or iphone so that's that's pretty young and you think about the difference in maturity between an 11 year old and a 16 year old and it's huge now let me ask you one more question about that a smartphone versus a smartphone with social media or all the apps are you seeing it guess they're different things but practically when most 10 or 11 year olds are getting a phone they're also just kind of getting access to you know social media along along with it and that that's part of the problem right so if you want to keep your kids off social media as long as possible it's really hard to do that if they have a smartphone particularly smartphone without new parental controls but even if you put the parental controls on like no downloading apps which I do recommend still it's a lot easier for them to find a workaround on that than if you give them a kid's phone where that's just it just can't happen you know it doesn't allow any social media apps at all and and I have to mention this those phones designed for kids also don't allow ai boyfriends and girlfriends because that's the new thing say more about that because I think that's really on parents minds right now I know so there are a bunch of apps out there and you know there's there's different ai platforms so there's the kind of standard chat gbt which you know kids are using for homework and so on but there are apps that are specifically designed to be an ai companion and several of them are ai girlfriends or ai boyfriends or they'll be like sexy chat and these are all ai bots and if you give your 11 year old a smartphone without any controls on it there's nothing stopping them from downloading these apps and then you know and ending up having their first quote romantic relationship with a chat bot and just to look at it I won't go off on this for too long but one of the things because parents will say to me like is that so bad is this is it nice that they have something that feels so you know validating or connecting and I understand the question I think you know when we fast forward for our kids and again we have this longer term vision for them intimate relationships sexual non-sexual just any type of intimate relationship is so awkward for so long even if it's friendship it's hard to be vulnerable it's hard to tell the true story it's hard to say I felt left out it's hard to say you know I didn't like it when it's hard to have a conversation with someone you have a crush on like these are really awkward things because they're new they require you to really put yourself out there and one of you know just one of the things on the list that concerns me with these early quote ai relationships is they almost give the illusion or the feeling of intimacy without any hurdle of awkwardness or discomfort and I think that's a really dangerous thing to pair because when the younger generation feels like they can get all the benefits of intimacy without the risks and the awkwardness of vulnerability it will have a profound impact on their ability to have actual human relationships and that it'll even lead to a sense of entitlement and kind of almost aggressive behavior when inherently normal real intimate relationships don't come with that same type of comfort and ease and so I think that's a perspective I often ask parents to think about right where it's not just about the short-term moment of oh I felt validated it's really important we make sure kids see intimate relationships for what they are and not have kind of a false security that they can be achieved so easily and kind of cheaply yeah absolutely because those chatbots they're programmed to be affirming that's what they do and then you have that quote relationship then what happens if you have a friendship or much less a romantic relationship with a actual flesh and blood human being who has feelings of their own and is not always going to agree with you or think you're brilliant like I mean really like every time I chat anything with a with an ai chat it's like oh Becky that's a great idea let me expand in it oh brilliant oh so smart like literally I I almost feel myself getting a little frustrated at my husband like do you not think I just said something brilliant like where is where are my accolades you know um and so yeah we notice that even in adulthood right and so I think that's just a really good point you know that moment when your kid is hungry right now and you're like okay what can I grow up that's fast and I actually feel good about that's why I love Once Upon a Farm they make delicious organic farm fresh food for kids of all ages with no added sugar or preservatives and they have so many options refrigerated pouches frozen meals pantry snacks plus oat and protein bars so it's easy to find what works for your kid and your day Once Upon a Farm was founded by parents and it shows what their real commitment to transparency and doing good for families in the planet and they're available online and at retailers nationwide so for your next I need something now moment use code good inside for 40 off your first subscription at once upon a farm organics.com okay another rule in your book and I've seen this be so important in my house phone free zones tell me about that yeah so just times and places when preferably everybody in the family just has those devices put away so family dinner is a great example of that or family game night where we're going to interact with each other face to face and we're not going to do this thing that social psychologists have come up with the clever name for which is fubbing my combination of phone and snubbing everybody has experienced it and hates it and everybody does it we don't want that we want to have that conversation face to face have that time carved out when we can actually be there and be present with each other it's interesting this transition to the school year I've thought a lot about family dinner and part of it is that my youngest just doesn't need to go to bed as early as he used to because he's just getting older right when you have like really young kids or you have a kid who needs to go to bed by seven another kid who doesn't get home from sports until 6 30 like family dinner I don't don't be so hard on yourself there's a period of time where it's really impossible and that's okay but I've thought about hey maybe my youngest can stay up a little later and maybe my oldest can start homework a little later and the way I thought about my head is just what if the thing I optimize for on weeknights is actually family dinner together and and I can tell you it's completely changed this school year I think it's been one of the best things our family has had happen and the rules of family dinner aren't that rigid we eat dinner together there's one meal that we all have there's no phones anywhere and we don't have such a routine like sometimes we do to truce and a lie about our day or rose thorn or you know sometimes we just listen to each other but the essence of it is it is a container where we are together exactly and there's no phones and it feels old school we're just connecting and being present with each other and it's it just made me think about so many things I tell parents because I swear it's been more impactful on my relationship with my kids their behavior their cooperation they're arguing with each other less than being kinder to each other maybe more than any of the more like complicated strategies that we think about doing and it's almost remarkable how powerful it is in family life because it is actually a kind of a simple old school thing yeah that's that's the charm of it that's the beauty of it and it's I mean it's just great for that feeling of of togetherness and that you have even if that's the only time that you all come together as a family on weeknights then you have that what what do you say to parents because I hear this or like you know honestly it's it's my husband it's my wife who's the one you know like getting my kid to put down their phone for family dinner like that's that's manageable but it's really hard when my partner you know is oh I have this thing come up at work or you know I think one of the things that's interesting is someone asks a question and we've been so programmed to say like let me look that up oh wait I can look that up and then right so how do you manage that I mean you know just that honest conversation and I think one thing is if you if let's say you know you have a spouse who is on call or is the contact for an elderly parent they really do have a compelling reason then they should narrate what they're doing I'm so sorry I do have to check this really quick and then it's not just like oh you guys are boring I'm going to take out my phone I actually it's a great idea overall you know if you do find yourself really not being able to avoid taking out the phone or yeah I feel like let me let me look it up or like we're arguing about what year did this movie come out I'm gonna hear it I'll look that up really quick but then put it away but say that's what you're doing so then it's not like oh I'm gonna text my buddy I love that and the other thing is just for anyone listening it's really interesting to try to have a full conversation with multiple people without looking something up like we all used to do that it was like what year did that come out and everyone's like nobody knows nobody knows it's impossible to know and you kind of wondered about it together which is interesting wondering about something together is such a powerful way of connecting that sometimes short circuiting to the right answer actually diminishes connection oh I think it was 1979 I'm pretty sure it was 81 because I remember this oh you remember it was like in 81 wow dad you're old yeah I am like whatever the conversation ends up being it actually only happens because you haven't come up with the right answer and and I think about that often how easily we can look something up and then the conversation's over so it is kind of just a challenge to take on can I have a family dinner or breakfast whatever it is where we don't have a phone and you can even preview there'll be probably a moment where everyone thinks oh let's just look this up online we're just not going to do it it's not like we don't believe in finding out answers we do but once in a while it's okay not to and just see what transpires because I do find the habit of like looking something up and my family is probably a sports score we're very into sports all of a sudden it's so hard to put your phone down right after then all of a sudden you see a notification right and that is the thing of the phone like one tiny ding leads you into an hour of a rabbit hole and then you come out of your phone you're like I can't even believe it's this time I totally lost it none of us are immune to that so actually just trying to stop the beginning of that downward spiral once in a while I think is you know probably the most realistic yeah absolutely any other rule in your book I want people to read the book so we're gonna leave them with a little of a cliffhanger but anything that you're like oh geez Becky I gotta get this one in this one you know also feels super important to talk about rule eight of give your kids real world freedom love this one yep so it's not just getting off the phone it's what are they gonna do instead and what does actually build resilience kids doing things on their own yes with their parents approval but without their parents help whether that's walking or biking to school going into a grocery store and buying something or even at home doing your own laundry learning how to cook a meal and doing that for your family every once in a while I love this and I love that this is a kind of side-by-side point to guidelines around containing phone use because none of this is about trying to ruin our kids childhood like just to be clear we're not trying to just reduce things that give them pleasure but we know right playing around on your phone all the time and and the way I think about it and it's beyond just phones it's even young kids in screen time is yeah I'm not rigid about anything but the more our kids learn that they can kind of get this easy quick dopamine hit from something that requires no effort or struggle that's just a dangerous combination like I want my kids to know how to struggle to know how to figure things out over time to feel awkward whether it's talking to someone they've a crush on or it's awkward the first time you check out at a grocery store like no kid is going to do that for the first time and be like that's easy the whole point is that it's awkward it's hard you take a step and there's no better feeling in the world than watching yourself do something you thought you couldn't do and so I think the whole point of rule number eight is we actually want to set our kids up for more of that right that like that's actually part of our job too and being on your phone a lot or high tech it can actually get in the way of that so if we're reducing one we really want to increase the other yep yep best best care for anxiety is experience I think that really kind of sums it up what do what is the pushback here or maybe where do you just find parents are very anxious about this maybe where their own anxiety or maybe their own bad experiences kind of get in the way what have you noticed yeah so I hear that a lot so I gave a talk over the weekend someone raised their hand and said you know I love that thing about the real world freedom and I know that that's good but what if I ask my six-year-old to go into the next aisle at the grocery store to grab something and come back to me with context we're talking about the grocery store and probably like less than a minute what if they get kidnapped and I think that given how vanishingly rare that is especially you know when they're aisle at the grocery store that's interesting I think that says a lot about the anxiety that's out there among parents and in the whole society right now when for most parents this time now when your kids are young is safer than when you were the same age you know that moment when your kid is hungry right now and you're like okay what can I grab that's fast and I actually feel good about that's why I love Once Upon a Farm they make delicious organic farm fresh food for kids of all ages with no added sugar or preservatives and they have so many options refrigerated pouches frozen meals pantry snacks plus oat and protein bars so it's easy to find what works for your kid and your day Once Upon a Farm was founded by parents and it shows what their real commitment to transparency and doing good for families in the planet and they're available online and at retailers nationwide so for your next I need something now moment use code good inside for 40 off your first subscription at once upon a farm organics.com I think we're talking about something really interesting psychologically in terms of how we process risk because we know the risk to kids spending a lot of time on their phones it's it's massive it's a known risk but the risk isn't kind of captured in the exact moment the appearance of the moment is like my kids just on their phone right versus it reminds me of a time when you know someone would say I don't know I know someone has this illness at a dinner party should I go and they're like oh knowing that I don't want to go but this is someone who gets on the subway all the time and probably the chances that they're exposed to illness is like hi right so our body kind of processes risk in an interesting way where we think letting my kid go to the aisle next door we're thinking about something so bold as kidnapping in that moment but the actual risk in that moment is probably less than the risk that is known from our kids for example spending too much time on their phone or sleeping with their phone in the room and I'm curious how you respond to this one of the things I often talk about with parents in terms of risk is how complete minimization of risk isn't a life strategy like there's some amount of risk we have to take on to just live a worth to live a life that's worth living right and where we are in that spectrum everyone has a different amount right but minimizing risk at all times for your kids ironically will lead to a kid who is terrified of the world because the message they've been given over and over is nothing is safe for you to do and so fast forward 10 20 years this is a kid who's going to be an adult who finds it very very hard to do something independently because their body gives them a message of risk danger kind of all the time exactly and they're they're scared to do things they don't know how to do things you know I teach on a college campus and I give it a lot of talks on college campuses and everywhere I go what I hear from staff and faculty is I have more and more students who can't make even simple decisions without texting their parents and that they come in prepared academically but not in terms of managing their life even little things like they have no idea how to do laundry and so this is like let's make this concrete for parents because everyone's starting point is going to be different and sometimes if you know you're a parent who can feel pretty anxious about this you can actually use that as a little bit of a compass like okay what gives me 10 out of 10 panic the thought of my kid I don't know you know let's say someone doesn't even live in New York City I get you're like the thought of my kid going on the subway by themselves that's you know too high okay great so we're not going to start there and then maybe a different level you check in on is my kid going to the grocery store in our town while I'm parked in the car okay maybe that still feels too hard maybe I'm in the store with my kid but I stay in the aisle and they go to check out by themselves to think about this less as all or nothing and more as what is a little bit of discomfort I'm comfortable with as a parent and I can kind of scaffold my kid from there and then I think it becomes a lot more manageable and I just want to say as a parent who I think does give my kids a good amount of independence I just want to say it's completely true there's nothing I've seen them ever do kind of academically earn sports even that has given them the confidence that walking to the local store has and bringing back breakfast for the family like truly because the experience of feeling like you're part of this world the real world and you're an agent in that world and you can do things and you can help and you can have purpose and impact kids actually do crave that and they almost get a high when they feel that and by the way the other thing I say to parents do you know how much easier it is when your kid makes breakfast for themselves like literally we all I can't even sit down and have coffee like I've learned hold on a second a little bit of work helping my my eight-year-old makes a breakfast burrito for himself he does the full things start to finish and you know what I'm doing when he's doing that I don't know I'm messing around I'm sitting down I'm drinking my coffee right and it's not always perfect but the way your kid's independence gives you energy and literal time back and your resentment and depletion goes down to me that's one of the reasons no one talks about that is still a good reason to motivate a parent to help a kid be a little bit more in that track absolutely I mean it is really is a win-win situation kids do those things on their own they gain confidence it tamps down their anxiety it tamps down your anxiety and then yeah they've done their laundry they've cooked dinner for the family then you don't have to do it I love it all right well thank you for this conversation I really got so much out of your book and it just made me think about things in a different way and it also just really did generate important conversations with my kids and I want to thank you for like all your years of work and research in the space it's so important and we're so grateful so thank you thanks thanks for having me on there's so many important things we talked about today but if I had to choose one to rise to the top it's actually Jean's second rule in the book no bones in the bedroom at night now I know a lot of us hear that and we can spiral oh does that mean I already messed up my kid no something I tell myself all the time is the right time to change is always right now we always say to ourselves it's too late I messed it up I think a different perspective is helpful today is always earlier than tomorrow remember you are the pilot of your family's plane you're a sturdy leader and you can always change a decision so it's more in line with your own values let's end the way we always do place your feet on the ground in the hand on your heart let's remind ourselves even as I struggle on the outside I remain good inside I'll see you next time okay parents quick check in if your brain feels like it's holding everyone's schedule except your own you're not doing it wrong you're carrying a lot I see this all the time school emails activities chores dinner plans and somehow it all lives in one person's head usually moms and that gets exhausting that's why I love skylight calendar it's a smart touchscreen calendar that takes everything swirling around in your brain schedules chores meals grocery lists and puts it in one place where the whole family can actually see it and participate it syncs with google apple outlook all of it and you can color code each family member so there's a lot less wait I didn't know in your house plus with the free skylight companion app you can add or update events lists and more on the go and I appreciate this if after 120 days you're not 100 happy you can return it for a full refund no questions asked right now you can get $30 off a 15 inch skylight calendar at myskylight.com slash Becky that's my sky lighth.com slash Becky