Why Do I Keep Doing This Every Holiday Season?

Hi, Katie. Welcome to Privy Alliance Podcast. I am so happy to have you here today with us. So excited to be here. Thanks for having me. So I've already told our listeners a little bit about you, but I want to give you a minute. Tell us, introduce yourself for them in your own words. Yeah. My name is Katie Morton. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I have been creating online educational content surrounding mental health since 2011. So definitely like an OG creator in the mental health space and online space. And yeah, I've written three books. My third book, Why Do I Keep Doing This, is coming out in December. And I educate, I speak at schools. I really just have a deep passion for breaking down the stigma of mental health treatment and helping people better help themselves today. Now we love that. And you know, the title of this episode is The Holiday Anxiety. And why do we keep doing this? So I feel like this is the perfect time. Because you're coming out and that's in the holiday season right now of saying, okay, let's try to get this right. So first, you know, the holidays, it's like a pressure cooker, right? It's like we're cooking that turkey, but that's us inside there. Why do you think it brings out more anxiety than joy when it's supposed to be the joyous time of year? That's a great question. And I've always kind of hated that people say it's like the happiest time of the year. I love the holidays. Don't get me wrong. But there is, we have our regular life going on, which can be stressful enough, especially if we're balancing work, family, if we have children, if we have animals, and we have family coming into town, right? You think of like layering on top of our basic life, all of these extra things, like I have to shop for people, I need to make sure I get the right gift, I might have extra social events for myself or my children for my family as a whole, not to mention hosting more people. I think it's just the expectations that we have have gotten so great. And it becomes unmanageable for a lot of people, or at least at the very least, just overwhelming and stressful. And not to mention the amount of money you spend. I mean, we could talk about all the facets of it, but it's really just, it's a lot. And I, it's a lovely time of year, but we also need to recognize that it can be super stressful too. No, absolutely. In your new book, Why Do I Keep Doing This? You talk about patterns and habits we get stuck in. And you're calling me out on some of those there. How do you see those patterns seen around like holiday stress, right? Because it's like, every year the holidays come back around. And we may have said, okay, why do I do this to myself? But I'm right here again, in the middle of target, last minute shopping, or stressed out, because ain't birth is coming. There are two main patterns I talk about in my book that I think apply especially during the holidays. Number one is perfectionism. And I struggle with this too, where I will have like this, I want Christmas morning to be like this, or I want the party that I'm throwing family to look like that. And I can have these really big expectations I place on myself, where those come from. I mean, we can get into that too. But like, it's really difficult. It's like, I feel like I need to try to take control of it, right? And make it exactly perfect. And we all know there is no such thing as perfect. And the goalposts keep moving. And so I find that that really stirs it up as well as, and I'm calling myself out also, don't feel like because I know better, I do better. The other is people pleasing. I'll say yes, when I frankly don't have the bandwidth, or I'll offer to assist in one more activity, whether it's at school or work or whatever, when I just can't. One of my best friends, she always double books herself. So she'll say, yes, I can be there. And yes, I'll be there when they happen almost at the same time. And then she's like, I don't enjoy myself at either place. And you're like racing. And so I find that those patterns, those issues tend to flare up, especially this time of year. And I would love to get into the expectation, right? Why do we put this on ourselves? I think a lot of it, I talk about this in the book, in my own discovery and therapy, is a lot of it comes from the way we were raised. I mean, I, even though this might not be the norm, I was raised in a very traditional household. And so the woman is the one that has to do all the shopping, all the cooking, all the planning, and there can be a lot of these pressures for it to look a certain way. And because it represents me and my family, I want it to feel and look perfect. And it also could come from, and this now I'm just telling you more about myself than you probably want to know. I also grew up thinking that, because my dad worked away from home a lot, and I discovered through therapy that because he wasn't home, I thought, oh, if I do better, if I work harder, then he'll be home more. That makes sense in my little kid brain. And even though I'm 41 years old and I'm not a kid anymore, I still have taken those beliefs with me. And until we acknowledge that and like, oh, you know, being perfect isn't going to make people love me more or spend more time with me. It's actually going to make me less pleasant maybe to be around, right? Until I figured that out for myself, I would keep striving and striving to make it just right. And then the people pleasing kind of comes from my aversion to conflict, which I think a lot of us have, that we don't want people to dislike us. And we will, again, we want the holidays to be lovely and wonderful. And so we can just say yes to keep the peace. Yeah, no, I mean, it's so much easier sometimes just to smile and bear it, you feel like, right? And instead of having that talk with that person who constantly crosses the boundary or who makes you uncomfortable, or you're like, I don't want to spin that, but I feel like I have to. It's hard. Yes, it's very hard. And we can worry about what that looks says about us or how that looks, you know, there's just a lot of pressure to keep up appearances. And people might say like, but I don't think I'm that way. I don't think I'm that way either. But it does come out, you know, it surprises us the ways that it kind of reveals itself. And that's kind of what my book is about is honestly, like my own journey of being like, Oh, my gosh, I'm doing that again. Oh, my God. And doing it, you know, it's like the frustration of why, why do I keep doing this this way? Yeah. And you know, I think as a lot of myself as a mom, and I've heard from other moms, and it's this, I want my child to have what I didn't have. And I'm not saying that because I had a beautiful childhood, but you just want more for your child or your scene, maybe scroll a little bit too much and you get in this comparison factor of, so I think how can you speak to the audience and if he's like, Oh, okay, yeah, that's me. But like, what do I do? You know, I don't have time to go into therapy, have intensive sessions before the holidays next week. Yeah, fair, totally fair. One of my favorite quotes is comparison is the thief of joy. And so an easy thing to do is to pay attention to what you're digesting online. And even if you love someone's content, if you find yourself feeling bad about your life as a result, we should maybe unfollow them or mute them for a while, maybe to get yourself through January, and then be like, I'll revisit, because I find even personally, you know, it's hard when I'm watching people with like perfect homes and these perfect setups, and they're taking these beautiful vacations. And here I am, and looking around my life, which is fine. But when I compare, it looks terrible, or it doesn't quite measure up. And so that's something you can do that's just all about you, and you being honest with your own experience. And then I would encourage you something that I do more now, honestly, I haven't journaled this much since I was younger, but journaling about like, what am I hoping for? What are my expectations for myself and others? Have I communicated those? I know this can sound like simple things to consider, but it really takes some time. And it helps you be honest with what you're setting up, because I know that if I we throw a holiday party every year, and it's not a huge ordeal, but I love it, and I get really excited. And if I set up the expectation that everybody needs to come and everything has to be perfect, and the food needs to be this way, then I'm setting myself up for failure. I'm going to feel like it didn't go to plan. So what's the most realistic expectation I can set? How can I make sure, you know, it's just, it's considering ahead of time. Because I find this time of year, we kind of just rush in, because everything is swirling, and there's so much going on. Maybe just take a beat, if you get up five minutes earlier, just start jotting some stuff down. What are the, you know, kind of intentions I want to set for today? What do I want to make sure that I do? What do I want to be aware of so I don't do it again? You know, it just gives you a little time to kind of, like, reboot. What am I doing? And am I doing it with intention versus just half hazardly, which we all do, no judgments. I do that all the time. Totally. One thing you said about is not expressing your expectation or communicating expectation, but setting yourself up for resentment. And I was like, ooh. Yes, one of my favorite quotes, and I don't know who said it, I can't give credit, but it's expectations that are not communicated are resentments in the making. Yes. I do that with my husband all the time, where it's like, I'll expect him to know, well, you should unload the dishwasher, it's full, or you should be doing this, or how come, you know, I'll ask him to do something, he's like, outside trimming a bush. I'm like, that has nothing to do with the fact people are coming over, why are you doing this? It's so frustrating, but I didn't communicate it clearly. And I think that's a big thing now is that if you, you know, with your spouse, with your children, if they're old enough to help with people who are staying with you, if you have a party going on and people are coming over, can we communicate what needs to happen and how people can help? And when people ask if they can help, do we say yes? Because that's a big one. We'll feel like, no, no, no, I've got it all. And then in our head, we're like, I'm doing this all myself and nobody else helps me. Accepting help, I talk about that in the book too, like being able to ask for help and then being able to accept it. You know, just setting yourself up for success versus feeling like we're always behind the eight ball, nothing's turning out the way that we wanted. And then at the end of the day, we're super frustrated and maybe we pick a fight that we didn't need to be in, not speaking personally, just kidding. I mean, I haven't heard of a holiday gathering that there isn't some tiff at the end of it by someone. And I think it is, right? It's just a combination of so many things. One thing I do, and it sounds like me and your friend has law in common, is we over schedule. So if someone's staring at their schedule right now and they're like, okay, that's cool. But you know, what's, how do I like make it feel possible? How do I set those boundaries? Like, how do I tell my best friend, no, and my boss, no, I think it's all about you assessing your ability and then just being honest with them. So let's say we've already said yes to this event. And it is on a Thursday evening and it starts at six. Now our friend, last minute, is like, hey, I really would love to exchange gifts with you. Can you do, you know, an early dinner or happy hour thing? And we're like, we really can't. But we could reply and say, well, I have this event, I have to be to at six. So I could meet you, it depends on your schedule. I'm just making numbers up here. But I could meet you from four to five 30. But then I do have to get out. So we have to be honest. And that's also you considering, do I have the energy to do this? I find if you start feeling overwhelmed, I've done this personally, and it's been like a lifesaver, as I'll say, things are really chaotic. How about we do an after holiday get together? So like, January 7th, let's plan for a proper dinner and we can spend time and I won't feel so rushed. So we almost, I call it kind of like a hug and roll, where instead of telling someone, no, we're like, I love you so much. And I would love to be able to talk to you more than feeling rushed. How about and then we roll away? It's a no, but it's not really, how about I see you at this time, then we can actually take that time and enjoy together. And I think with friendships that really works. And I think they would also agree because we can feel rushed to cramp everything in before the holiday or before the end of the year. And it can just feel really overwhelming. With a boss, it might be a little bit more professional where you're like, you know what, I've already committed. I would love, I'm so grateful. You know, thank you again, hug and roll. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the invitation. However, I've already committed. If you have other dates open, I have time here and here. And just being honest, I know we want to do everything for everybody, but then we end up doing nothing for ourselves. And we're fully burnt out. And I think that's when fights happen. That's when we get home from giving to everybody else and we pick a fight with our husband or our wife. And we just kind of spiral. It can be overwhelming. Oh, I love that hug and roll like that. That's going to be my new jam. I love that. What about, you know, the people please, and we have talked about this with families, right? How do you stop the people pleasing and family gatherings when you're just like, okay, well, yeah, I have to see her every holiday or it seems simple to do that to a friend or to a co-worker. But like, these people don't get out of my life. Family can be incredibly tricky, especially when it comes to boundaries, because if we haven't had them before, they can take them as a slight. And so I think again, it goes back to communication. Hug and roll is your best friend. I would love to see you. You are my favorite aunt. I love seeing you in the holidays. Unfortunately, this year, I don't have the time. Or a thing that I love to do during the holidays is to push a bunch of people together into one event so we can like knock it all out. So, yeah, you know, oh, my cousins and I, we're going to get together and we're going to invite Aunt, you know, Aunt Theresa, and I'd love to invite you. How about we all go get sandwiches at this place? And so we get like six people together and we knock that out. It depends on the dynamic of your family, whether they all get along and you can do that. Or whether we have to hug and roll, or we set up a different time, or, you know, we plan something else or whatever. I'm not sure. It depends on your obligations. But people pleasing honestly just means we're doing things not out of joy and love, but we're doing it out of like expectations and possibly like guilt. And I don't know about you. If we were honest, if we're like, hey, if I knew that my sister was only getting together with me because she felt guilty, would I want that? Now, the answer is always no. You'd want it to be out of joy and love and excitement. And so just being honest with yourself about that, communicating what you can offer and what you can't. And unfortunately, then we have to let the chips fall where they may. Not everyone is going to like it that you can't be available or that you stuck up for yourself a little and you didn't let them walk all over, you know, not everyone is going to like a changed you. But I'll tell you that you will like a changed you and you'll feel better. And boundaries are not about being mean, but they are about protecting the fact that we can't be everything for everyone. We can't please everyone, right? And in order for us all to survive the holidays, there's going to be some people we have to say no to so that we can say yes to something more important. What's have we have been in one of those situations where we have felt responsible for the other person's happiness? Because I think what happens is the guilt, right? Or the, well, I know I'm going to break her heart or I can't make my mom sad or my grandmother sad or, you know, my aunt's had a tough year. And how do you get comfortable with that? That's really hard. And it's interesting. I'll give a little therapy. Like, this is kind of a little nerdy about it. But we find misplaced responsibility comes from the fact that we grew up believing we were responsible for other people's emotional experience. And it's really important to just at least identify that because the truth is we have zero control over how someone is going to respond or react. I mean, how many times has someone said like, just smile and have a good day. How impactful is that on you? Yeah, yeah, opposite direction, right? Yeah. So we have to realize that we have zero control. And when we say things to ourselves, I even say this to my husband all the time, because he'll say, well, it's going to hurt their feelings. And I say, how do you know? Did you talk to them? We have to get more comfortable with communication, because I find that feelings get less hurt. People are less upset when we have talked to them about it. And so if you're like, I don't want to break their heart, my mom's going to be so offended, we always do this every year or something, talk to her. Say, mom, I have this and this and this and I'm just, I feel like I don't have time for our thing. Could we do it a different time? Or are you flexible? We have a conversation. We talked or I don't want to hurt your feelings. I love you so much. Hug and roll. I love you so much. This is I love doing this. Unfortunately, blah, blah, blah, right. And I think that acknowledging and this is tough for me, everybody does what you're talking about, is just acknowledging like, hey, that's someone else's emotional experience. I don't have control of that. I say that to myself all the time. I actually don't have control of that. And then I consider what do I have control over myself? What should I do to maybe mitigate that? I can over communicate. That's one thing I like in excess communication. You can always tell them, you know, things have just gotten out of hand. I didn't realize that my husband had said yes to this and now we have to commit to that. You know, there can, there's, it's complicated. Be honest. I've always spent way too much time in my life, like trying to figure out how to say no or how to tell them that I'm not available. And all that does is make me feel worse. And then it's like, I have made up an excuse. And then there's always loopholes. I was reading something recently where I was like, you don't have to put a TED talk together on why you can't do something. But I told you, I'm like, here are my bullet points. I really try. I promise. And it's like you end up like it looks worse. So just honest, just say what happened. Say that you're disappointed, hug and roll to your best of your abilities and find a different time. Or, you know, like I said, in the new year, I know we feel a lot of pressure again to the end of the year, but that's what makes this time so difficult. Cause we're like trying to cram like a year's worth of get togethers into a month. And it just never works. No, I love that. And I think what happens to and holidays bring the best and worst, right? Like I tell people, I'm like, holidays, weddings, babies, like feral, you're going to get the worst sometimes with people. But I think a lot, what we really try and we love that you start out just, you know, your platform of just normalizing mental health, right? So our guests, our listeners are like, okay, so how do I know if it's holiday stress, holiday anxiety, or is it deeper down really? Like, am I not okay? And this is just kind of, you know, the, it's lightening things up in my life a little bit more, right? Cause now I'm forced to deal with it. Yeah, that's a great question. I think a lot of people wonder like how, how bad do I have to feel? How sick do I have to be to get help or to warrant help? And there's a couple of pieces here. First of all, everyone can benefit from therapy. I've been in and out of therapy since I was 15. It's a long time. And I still have things that I need to vent about, get support about, or get another perspective. So it's just helpful to get another perspective. But for people who are like, again, I'm having a tough time. How bad is this? If your anxiety is making it hard for you to do, you need to do every day. Like if you're avoiding certain situations at work that could be beneficial for you because you're too anxious. If you can't go to the holiday party this year because of social anxiety, you're too worried people are judging you, thinking about you, talking about you, if that is happening, we should see somebody. If you find the worry is like uncontrollable, that's kind of how we define what's known as generalized anxiety disorder. It's like, no matter what facts I have, if let's say my husband tells me, you know, like, well, you know, we already know we talked to them and they're fine. They said they had a great time, but I can't let it go. I keep spinning and spinning and ruminating. No, I think I might have said something offensive. Oh my God, maybe the food wasn't good. You know, we just run. That is an indicator that we should probably get some help and help can look like therapy. It can look like a medication. It can ideally look like both. But there's no reason for you to suffer in silence to feel like you're kind of like a slave to your anxious thoughts that you can't get out of it. And like, you can't enjoy anything. If you find yourself not able to do what you want to do, please reach out and speak up. No, that's great. And I think it is, you know, sometimes you do the positive side of holidays, right? Is maybe you haven't seen that close family member or that close cousin. And maybe they could recognize that and you were friend and go, you know, that's not like you a little bit. Let's talk about what's going on in your life. Like, what's new? Is this, you know, I think that is a positive of it is it can help shine a light, but it's never easy to hear when someone says something, at least for me, you're different, you're changed a little wrong, you know, it doesn't feel good to be called out. No, it never does. And unfortunately, it's usually by the people who know us best, because they're the ones that can call us out. And we can get our spines up a little bit. Very normal. But the thing about if we don't see someone all the time, they're the ones to notice it. It's almost like, do you know, when you see a friend after like, let's say they moved away, and you're like, your accent's a little different, your hair, you did something different to your hair, or, you know, your style has changed, you know, we notice things on people really quickly, because we haven't seen them, but you see yourself every day, and those changes are gradual. And so do at least consider what they're saying, because chances are, they're highlighting something you know, but maybe aren't ready, or haven't been able to admit yet. Yeah, I love that. Now let's say, you know, anxiety does hit, right? It's at the dinner table, sent across from your loss, it's here in the middle shopping. What is some practical tools that we always love to give takeaways of like, we're not saying this is a full therapy session, but like, what do you teach like some ways to get yourself out of it, because it is really fight or flight sometimes in our nervous system? Oh, 100%. And once you think you're going to have a panic attack, or you think you're going to melt down or faint, it like builds and builds wake more quickly than we can expect. There are a ton of tools. I'll give you some. And if you want more, let me know. So my favorites is if we feel a little bit spacey, almost like we can't focus. I would call that like, we're kind of pulling into dissociation, nothing to be scared of. Most people have an episode in their life where you just kind of get maxed out. And you like, don't remember how you got home. So if we feel ourselves kind of getting spacey, I want you to look around the room and be like, how many things do I see that are blue? How many things we call it counting colors? How many things do I see that are brown? And just give yourself a second as you try to count and then pretend you're like telling someone how many I've keep track, keep a track on your fingers. Think about it. It keeps you present and stops you from kind of like maxing out and letting your, you know, yourself go into a spiral. So that's a great tool. Also, if you can pop in to depends on where you are, but bathroom dressing room and do a full body shake, like a dog out of the bath. I know that sounds wild. But what it really does is, you know, how you feel so amped up, like your palms are sweaty, maybe your heart is racing. I can't catch my breath. We just start to feel really overwhelmed. All this energy is queuing up for like fight or flight for your body to take action. But in our life, most of the time, we're not fighting and we're not running away. And so we have to give it a release and doing that shake gives it a release. And even if you're in public, act like you got a bug on you, like something like, oh, and then just shake and brush off. People will assume you thought the spider landed on you, it'll be fine. And you'll feel. So give yourself that release. If you're home, there is nothing more resetting or like kind of calming than ice temperature, we call it temperature change. But it's like, if you can dunk your face in cold water, if you can put a cold washcloth on your face or on the back of your neck, wrists, your throat, your neck, your temples, all of those are like part of your vagus nerve to get again, nerdy with it, it stimulates your vagus nerve. It can cause you to go that breathing in if you put your face in cold water, that's called the diving reflex triggers your vagus nerve. And what your vagus nerve does is when it's stimulated like that, it tells you that your system that you're okay. It's like a, we're okay, we're going to get through. And again, it will feel that. And my last tip, and this is my personal favorite for nighttime worries. So you're laying in bed, you feel yourself amp up, you're going through all the to do lists and things you didn't get done that you wish you did. Oh my God, you know, do a double breath in. Our body loves to expel carbon dioxide. So breathe in all the way till you feel full. Then breathe in again. Big breath out. And you will legitimately feel your body calm down. And you can do that two, three times if you have to, I honestly only usually have to do it once. But those are just some of the things I keep in my back pocket for when you feel overwhelmed, hopefully, you know, different settings, different things. Yeah, but yeah, those are awesome. Those are absolutely awesome. And I think it's always good for a reflection, right? And it's the journaling we love we touch that it's, and, you know, in your books to like the patterns and maybe so what do you tell people like, okay, your client comes into you and they're like, okay, let me tell you about this holiday season. And you're just like, well, how can they reflect on it? Because I feel like sometimes we reflect on it where either like, I'm putting that in the back of my head, I don't want to talk about this no more. I'll revisit that next year if I have to, or you ruminate on it. Well, you're just like, I said that wrong, can that happen? Did I did this wrong, you know, it goes either way. Yes, 100%. And I think, I mean, journaling is the way that I prefer to do it. You can go for walks and think the thing that I would say is if we choose not to actually write it out, if you're like, I don't want to journal, then I don't want you listening to a podcast, don't you listen to music when you go for your walk, because you actually need that quiet to give you some clarity of mind and movement while we're thinking things through can actually help you see things differently. You can look into like somatic experiencing Dr. Peter Levine, he's done a ton of research, but he makes a great case for movement while you think things through. So you can do that. But when it comes to journaling specifically, because that's my number one recommendation, and just as a caveat, journaling doesn't have to be spelled correctly, you don't have to be able to read it back, I don't need you to read it back. And it doesn't have to follow any linear pattern. You can in one sentence be like, I really had a tough time at that party last night. In the next sentence can be like, I hope I don't forget to pick up lettuce at the grocery store. I don't care. It's just to give your brain a space to dump. Okay. And if you want to reflect, we don't have to dive right in and like, Oh my God, let me dissect this holiday season. It's more like, how am I doing? I love asking myself questions in my journaling. So like, how come I feel so stressed? Is it because I have too many things on my to-do list? No, is it financial? Maybe I didn't budget the way I just be honest with yourself, ask questions. Again, doesn't have to flow, doesn't have to make sense. But that will help you hopefully slowly see things more clearly. And you only have to do it for like five minutes, maybe 10 minutes. Don't feel like you have to set aside an hour. I think a lot of times when we talk about self care, we talk about checking in, people feel like it has to be this like deep dive. And we have to give ourselves like all this time, which we don't have. And then it's not, we're not able to stay consistent. And with journaling, the most important thing is to be consistent. And if you did five minutes every morning, I guarantee you in like two weeks, you'd feel lighter and you'd feel pulled to it. Sometimes when I'm having a tough day, I'm like, I really should write about that because it just slows it down. It gives me clarity. And so take that time, five, 10 minutes. And then one last little thing that I'm always telling people is thoughts are not facts. I know they feel like facts. I know you've had those thoughts maybe for years, but instead of just accepting that your thoughts are facts, let's take that thought, acknowledge it, and then check if we have facts to support it. And think of them like a table, like thoughts are like tables, and they can't stand if they don't have four facts. They need little, you need your legs on your table. And so if you find yourself ruminating like this was so terrible, I did a horrible job, the holidays were ruined, my family was, you know, whatever, let's pause. And in your journaling, right down, I had these thoughts, write them, let me see if I have any facts was where the holidays ruined. No, actually, my youngest had such a good time. She really loved the stockings and Santa and my husband actually still is talking about that dinner. I guess it wasn't all bad, right? We have to check in because we tend to do all or nothing black or white until your ruminator, check those facts. And if you're a stuffer, five minutes of journaling. Now, I love that. I love this. You give us such wonderful things. What is kind of the last parting words that you want to say about this holiday season, like that you can encourage our listeners that they're like, okay, it's two minus two weeks, here we go. What do you leave them with? I guess my best advice, and this is something I've been trying to do more, is setting my own realistic expectation. Because again, I go into things thinking it has to be perfect, and everybody needs to be happy. And then I'm disappointed. But what if instead, create a game out of it, okay? And I know this is going to sound wild. Being kind of create a game out of it. Like my husband and I would be like, how many fights do we think are going to happen between that one uncle and that cousin? They always go at it. And so it becomes less of a like, this is ruined, and it becomes more like, see, I told you, it'd be two, it starts at, yeah, and later in the night, there's another, you know, and so those things that are realistic are expected, and they don't ruin anything. And then the things that we, you know, oh, I, I really think my brownies are going to just be the game changer. People are going to love those. We can set these small things up so that we can see it more as a realistic, funny, not always perfect thing, because that's how the holidays are. And so maybe spend a little time, you can do it with your partner too, if you like that. I think it's kind of funny. And then it takes the edge off of this has to be perfect. I hope nobody fights. I don't want to argue with anybody. It takes the pressure off of that. And so yeah, set some realistic expectations and have a little fun with it. I love that. And I'll tell our listeners, where can they find more of you? Where can they, when can we get this book? How they can connect? All the things. Yeah, my book came out December 9th. You can get it anywhere books are sold. And all of my social media is Katie Morton. It's K-A-T-I-M-O-R-T-O-N. I always say Morton like the salt. I love that. I love that. Well, Katie, you are so wonderful. And thank you for writing and teaching us what you learned, because I know that's a whole level two to be transparent and put it out there for the world. But we're here for it. And we really appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Okay, listeners. Thank you so much. I'll link everything in our show notes, because I know you guys are listening on the go. Hopefully you've paused this, like Katie told us, and bring our brains for a few minutes while we're walking. Let's do what she said. All right, guys, I will be back next week. Returnal mental health is as important as physical health. The Previous Lions podcast was created for and by moms dealing with post-partum depression and all its variables, like anxiety, anger, and even apathy. Hosted by CEO, founder Sarah Parkhurst, and licensed clinical social worker Whitney Gay, each episode focuses on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges, as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.