The Great Super Bowl Snack Debate

JPMorgan payments helps you drive efficiency with automated payments and intelligent algorithms across 200 countries and territories. That's automation driven finance. That's JPMorgan payments. You're definitely going traditional sort of appetizer entree dessert as you work through the game. For a sporting event, dessert is not a big thing. Maybe after your team wins, you're telling me you're going to turn down a chipwitch. Come on. This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies. It's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. Now, before we get to this week's show, we have a live podcast taping in Brooklyn coming up next month, not so far away anymore. I'll be joined on stage by cookbook author and friend of the show, Kenji Lopez-Alt, as well as a legend of comedy, the one and only Judy Gold, who I have loved forever. It's March 19th at the bell house. This is going to be a blast. Tickets are going fast. So get yours now. Go to sporkful.com. All right, let's get into it. When I first started this podcast, 16 years ago in my living room, the show was more about analyzing and debating the tiniest details of the eating experience. Things like whether cheeseburgers are better with the cheese on the bottom or how to build a s'more that doesn't fall apart when you bite into it, or the best strategy at an all-you-can-eat buffet. And in those early days, there was another podcast called Mike and Tom Eat Snacks that also went into extreme detail on basic foods, in this case, specifically snacks. Now, many of the 15 or 20 listeners I had at the time wrote to me and said, you should have these guys on. It's a perfect pairing. But the Mike and Tom in question were the great comedic actors and improv veterans Michael Ian Black and Tom Kavanaugh. I didn't even bother trying to get them. Eventually, they stopped doing their podcast because they were doing so many TV shows and movies. But last year, they relaunched Mike and Tom Eat Snacks. In recent weeks, they've analyzed everything from Kinder surprise eggs to the Bumblebee tuna salad kit. And as always, their analysis includes all kinds of hilarious digressions. You really never know where they're going to take a conversation. Anyway, after they made their podcast comeback, we connected. And so this week, we have a crossover episode that's been 16 years in the making. And in the tradition of both of our podcasts, no detail will be too small for our consideration as we break down Super Bowl Party snacks ahead of the big game. Do either of you have a favorite Super Bowl Party snack or item? Obviously, Wings is well known. There's often pizza. You can imagine like a giant sub, but there's all other kinds of dips and dipping apparatus, apparatus. What do you go for? In this way, I I'll relate Super Bowl to Thanksgiving. When I go to Thanksgiving, I want turkey. I want mashed potatoes. I want sweet potatoes. I want stuffing. I want the traditional stuff. Same at a Super Bowl Party. Anything greasy, anything that comes individually wrapped, anything like that. Don't hit me with your brie and pear spread. Don't give me some sort of radicchio salad. Chips, wings, pizza. Great. Let's not let's not put any puffery on it. You want low end. Is that what you're saying? You want low end? Whatever I eat has to you have to be able to find it at a 711. That's what I'm saying. Okay. What about the hot dogs rolling on the spindles? Would you go for that? Perfect. Super Bowl Fair. I'm fine with that too. I got to tell you last year we were invited to Super Bowl Party and increasingly I feel a lot of pressure if I can unburden myself to the two of you. People know that I host a food podcast and they expect me to be a great chef, which I'm not. I'm a good home cook, but I'm not a trained chef. I don't have any great culinary expertise, but yet they invite me to their house and they expect me to show up with something that's going to blow people's minds. And once in a while I nail it, but other times it's a disaster. And I was like, let me just make it really special for this Super Bowl Party. I'd seen on Instagram people build a football stadium out of food. It's literally like a mini stadium with like a field and like bleachers all around. And you're thinking to yourself, I'm going to do that. I'm going to build a football stadium out of food. Yes. That is what I set out to do. You're an idiot. That's a tough act to follow. You don't want to set any kind of bar like that. That's the worst precedent you could set, brother. Yeah, exactly right. Next year they're going to be like, where's your full scale replica of the solar system made out of food? What's in the football stadium made of food? What's the green? The green was vegetables, which breaks Michael's rule. And then I think I tried to use pretzels around the outside and like cut up pita. And maybe there was also some other vegetables to give it color. And then there was like a dip in the center. It's like right on the 50 yard line with some sort of large dip vessel. And maybe there were three different dips you could choose from, two which weren't very good. And that was in the center. And you could maybe barely just make out what it was supposed to be. But yet like at the end of the party, I had to bring 98% of it home with me with my tail between my legs. Oh, oh, this wasn't at your place. No, no, this right. This is someone else's house. That's great commitment. So I mean, I love the detail. A couple of things that come to mind is what's the night before making it going, this is good. This is a good idea. And then what's the walking up to the house or to the party? Is it like, is it like, oh, wait a minute? Or is it like wait till they see this? So I had seen it like on Instagram and I was like, this looks awesome. And then I decided to do it. And I initially was very excited about the idea. I'm like, I can pull this off. I think it's going to be great. It's going to be a real showstopper. You know, I'm going to, well, everyone else is going to have the same old, same old and I'm going to walk in there with my stadium. I love that. That's great. That's great. Like, watch this. You're going to be like, turn off the TV. Turn off the TV. I don't want to say it out loud. I don't want to say it out loud, but it's wonderful. I mean, we all know it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So then, so then I'm in my house that afternoon, because I think I was steaming some of the vegetables because I didn't want to, I'm trying to get it and I'm building the whole thing out. And as I'm building it, reality is starting to set in. And I'm starting, I'm like, this is not coming together. And I think I took it apart. I tried to reassemble it. I might have got, I might have been a second trip to the store to try to, I'm like, I need more structural supports. You know, I need to build this thing. I need, because you need height to make it look like a stadium. You need height around the perimeter so that you have like the slanted seats going down. And I just did not put enough thought into the engineering underlying that. Roughly, what's the size? Yeah, exactly. What's, how big is it? Like, when you bring it up, isn't it a bag? How are you doing it? So I have a serving platter that is oval shaped. So roughly the shape of a stadium. And it does have a little bit of a lip around that perimeter that I thought would help with the height visual. But look, by the time I left the house, I knew that this was, you know, it was not, had not gone well. You know, I was hoping like maybe the dips will be really good to people. Maybe that's what they'll like. You know, so not only was I very pretty sure when I walked in the door that this had, this was a pretty big disaster. But also like, you know, you get there and like, there's 50 people this party and everybody has brought something. So there is just food everywhere. So are you, are you like, where can I put the stadium? It would be great if it was in a central spot. Like, if you work this out with the host, like, I'm going to need like, I'm going to clear out a little bit. Do you guys have a spotlight? Maybe just keep it clear around the stadium because it's a parking lot. Good, it's a parking lot. I love dips in general. That's the one thing you can tell from my football stadium disaster. I was trying to take the event of dips to another level. I just think I like eating anything that's sort of interactive. I'm a kind of a control freak with food and I like being able to determine, okay, I'm going to have two string beans in this bite. I'm going to have double chips or only one. I'm going to dip it in this dip or that dip. On this one, I want a lot of dip. On this one, I want a little dip. Every bite is a new experience. Can I just interrupt you for a second because isn't that true with literally anything you eat? You're in control. No, I mean, if you get a cheeseburger, like a lot of the decisions have been made for you. If you get a pizza, sure, you can fold it. You could not fold it. You could use a fork and knife in some situations, but like, there's only so much you can do. Whereas like, if you have a couple different dips to choose from and a couple of different dipping vessels, the world is open to you, Michael. I mean, it's exponential. Do you have favorite chip and dip combos? Yeah, to me, the king of dips is always going to be the sour cream and onion made with Lipton dried onion soup mix, that and sour cream. That is the king of dips and will always be the king of dips. I hate doubling down on that, but my brother, he builds his house out of wood. He knocks down walls with sledgehammers and he makes all these different foods and his sour cream and onion dip is that bad is like, here's an event. Like James is going into the kitchen and he's going to make that thing. So that's the first thing I think of. And what do you like to dip into that? What it comes down to often is just the simple salt lays chip. Like just, it's like, well, you kind of can't, you kind of can't beat that, you know, because we're chip connoisseurs, you know, like the lays chip is extra salty. Brother, you're singing to the choir here. I mean, the classic potato chip. With the sour cream and onion dip, I mean, that's just perfection right there. Now, now, now there is a caveat, which is sometimes, you know, the lays is super thin, so it can break off in there. It's fragile. So you might, you might want to ruffles at times. That's a ruffles do have more structural integrity. Yes. Have you ever tried a sour cream and onion ruffle dipped into sour cream and onion dip? That sounds like heresy to me. That sounds like it's against, against nature. Sour cream and onion dipped into sour cream and onion. I think you're probably right. It sort of seems like why not do something complementary instead of redundant. What are your favorite dips? I mean, of all the kinds of chips that you could dip, my favorite is tortilla chips. I don't love potato chips. If I'm hungry and they're around, and I want a salty snack, sure, I'll eat them. But to me, they're kind of greasy, and most of them are all salt and like very little, if any, potato flavor. My God. And so I prefer tortilla chips for dips. And we can talk more about tortilla chips in a minute. But like, you know, I enjoy a good salsa, although I feel like there's always salsa. I like a good guac, but I feel like there's always guac. There's a dip that my mom makes. She doesn't know with veggies, but I think it's good with anything. She's made it forever. And now I've sort of stolen it from her. And it's just mayo, Dijon mustard, lemon juice, salt, pepper, a little bit of dill. And I will add a little sriracha. That sounds great. And it is creamy and savory and tart and a little peppery. It's just like got everything going on. I like to put sriracha in because it makes it pink. And without the sriracha, it looks at a glance like ranch. So people always dip, which is kind of fun. People dip something into it thinking they're having ranch. And then they have this thing with like mustard and lemon juice. And it's like, whoa, like, what is that? You know, and watching the surprise on their face is fun. And that's a dip that I really enjoy. I like that. That sounds good. That sounds like it could also be a salad dressing. If you alter the ratios, I mean, because if you do like two to one mayo to mustard, it's still pretty thick. Oh, okay. But you know, if you do, if you were to do less mayo and a little olive oil instead, you could probably adapt that mother. Oh, this is this guy. I'm emulsifying. Let the record show that you're making a hand gesture that looks like you've used an immersion blender before. That's exactly what I was using. Where are the two of you with tortilla chips? Are you a fan? Do you have favorites? Love a tortilla chip. And I love, I love different flavors of tortilla chips, of different brands of tortilla chips. I recently made my own fried tortilla and chip. You did homemade tortilla chips? Well, I made, I was frying tortillas and then, you know, made some chips from it and, you know, salted and whatever. I wasn't specifically making chips, but I liked the idea that once I had fried the tortilla to make some chips from it. Terrific. Interesting. I've honestly never made tortilla chips from scratch, but I would have imagined that you, because I know they sort of come from the idea of like you have leftover corn tortillas. They're not so fresh anymore. So you fry them up as a way to make good use of them and make them delicious again. I would think if I was going to do that, I would cut up the corn tortilla first and then fry the pieces, not fry it whole and then cut it. Did you have any splintering or shattering when you cut up the tortilla? No, because once it's fried, once it's fried, you can, you can just kind of poke it and it'll chip apart. But you got like sort of shards and different, different, like you get some small bits. Sure. But any, look, this is the danger with tortilla chips. I've said it, I've warned people for years. I said, look, anytime you get a tortilla chip, you're going to get edges. There's, there could be shards, you know, proceed with caution. I prefer a potato chip to a tortilla chip. I like a tortilla chip, but when it comes to the great snack aisle of life, I'm going to go for just Lay's Wavy or, you know, Trader Joe's Wavy. I've tried them all and we've reviewed many of them. There's, there's many brands that, that I like, but for me, the, the safe house is the simple chip and then the tortilla chip is, it takes a, takes a backseat to that, which I feel ameliorates my tortilla chip experience because when I do have it, I'm like, these are great. I should have these at every meal. So a couple quick things. First off, since you both love Lay's and you did acknowledge, Michael, that as good as they can be, one of the issues is that they're thin and prone to breaking. I would suggest if you're going to do Lay's in something thick like a sour cream and onion dip, that you don't hold the chip, you don't sweep across with the chip in an open faced position. You instead hold the chip vertically, like narrow and go through. It will still pick up enough dip, but you won't be putting nearly as much strain on the chip and it will be more likely to hold together. You're saying vertically and plunge or as opposed to sliding? You're saying a chip plunge. Well, you could try to plunge or dragging across the top. I have interviewed both a structural engineer and a rocket scientist on the subject of chip dipping. This is great. And one of the things that the rocket scientist told me, she was talking about drag and how when you design a rocket, one of the big things you're worried about is drag, you know, making sure that there's not too much resistance on the rocket as it tries to get into orbit. And she said one of the big mistakes she thinks people make when they dip potato chips, tortilla chips, whatever it may be, is that they plunge straight down and then they do this kind of forklift move where they're kind of flip turning the chip up and that is putting the absolute most possible strain on the chip. Instead, she recommended a snow plow maneuver where you're sweeping across the top, which can allow you to collect a lot of dip while putting much less strain on the chip. Right. I like that. Yeah, here's my concern now is you're talking about the snow plow maneuver with the potato chip. To me, if I'm going to snow plow, I'm going to grab the perimeter, right? And I'm going to kind of slide across. But then what's, but then I feel like my hand has a danger of getting into the dip. Now, I don't mind because I'm going to do this. I don't mind, but I'm just worried other people are going to be like, Black, what are you doing, kid? I mean, I would probably still stick with a traditional chip hold, which would be like thumb on top, but you need to get that finger underneath to provide additional support and then just try to do your best to not let that finger touch the dip. But if it does, it will be hidden by the chip and nobody will be any worse for the experience. But the nice thing about the tortilla chip and the salsa is your ratios are inverse because the tortilla chip has a lot more structural integrity and the salsa typically is thinner than a sour cream and onion dip. And plus they got the scoops. Yeah, they got the scoops now too. And so that's something we should talk about. What are your guys takes on the scoop? I'm not, I gotta be honest. I don't love it. I don't love a scoop. I feel like some has something with the scoop gets gets the proportions wrong. Once you put the scoop in, either the chip is too thick or there's too much salsa, it's hard to get it right. Whereas I feel like in the traditional manner, it just adheres perfectly and you end up with just the right ratios. You're exactly right. My experience with the scoop is, oh, this is good. Now it can really scoop. But then the stuff gets into the center of pooling effect. And so when I bite the edges, which is the first thing you're going to bite, you're not getting the dip the way you want it. I generally agree with both of you. I mean, the only way to get the chip and the dip all together is to eat the thing in one bite. I mean, it'll fit in your mouth, probably. But the issue with that is that then the walls of the scoop are vertical and they're going to jam into the roof of your mouth and cut the roof of your mouth. Yeah. Scoops are a recipe for shards. It just aren't. I believe though, Am I right? Do you guys have some scoops? Should we go take those for a test drive? We have, I mean, we've got both, which is great, right, Magic? And I have the tostitos chunky salsa medium. So I will say one of the nice things about the scoops is that there's a lot of variety in the different way. In reality, only maybe half of the chips in the bag are the full fledged scoop shape. Right. And I feel like over time they flattened out a little bit. The vertical walls are not so vertical. They're more at a 45 degree angle. And so if you if you fish through the bag a bit, you can find like half pieces or slightly flatter pieces that still have some of the scoop properties but are not as perilous for the roof of your mouth. Let's cover one more topic before we do a taste test, please, because I have I have three metrics that I use to judge all tortilla chips. One is flavor, which can be flavorings like the lime flavor, or it just means like, does it taste like corn? Or is it just salty? The other is crunch factor. I think you want some good crunch, but you don't want to be so crunchy that you're like jaw gets sore from eating a few. But then the final thing is shape. I'm going to go ahead and say, I mean, I understand why traditionally tortilla chips are triangular because they started with around corn tortilla and it's left over and you so you cut it like a mini pizza, you cut it into wedges. But nowadays, very few mass produced tortilla chips are made that way. They're only ever a triangle and strips also are somewhat traditional. But the truth is like we can make them any shape we want now. And I think that the triangle is not the best. I mean, it's if you hold one point and dip two points, you have a lot of surface for dip, but then you're holding a very thin end. So there's very likely to have breakage. If you hold two points and dip one point, there's not that much space for dip. And then on top of that, if it's too big, it's hard to fit the whole thing in your mouth. The points as you so eloquently said, Michael, can be very perilous. And so I just think that that maybe we can do better than a triangle. What do you guys think? I think you bring you bring up some good points and some more than that, some important points because with the triangle, you're right. Then with the traditional triangle, you do you do run into some dipping problems. It's not well suited for dipping a strip would be better. The shards, the points, all excellent points. The fact that we can even have this conversation about tortilla shapes and the technology that we have just makes me grateful to be alive in the time human history that I'm alive. This is the first time in human history, we could say that when we say we have the technology to make tortilla chips any shape we want. So yeah, thank you for bringing it up. And if nothing else today, I'm going to leave with a lot of gratitude. Coming up, Mike, Tom and I put our tortilla chip and salsa theories to the test, a taste test. And later things get heated, we debate the most classic Super Bowl food of all, wings. That's coming up, stick around. Hope you're hungry because it's time for some ads. JP Morgan payments helps you drive efficiency with automated payments and intelligent algorithms across 200 countries and territories. That's automation driven finance. That's JP Morgan payments. 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An incredible candy bar, their potato chips and then many of the ingredients only to make my kimchi carbonara recipe for my cookbook including zingerman's phenomenal guanciale their pecorino romano and of course a box of cascatelli and even if you don't have my book the kimchi carbonara recipe is included in the box. Everything zingerman's makes is phenomenal. So get the kit shipped right to your door at zingerman's.com. All right back now to my conversation with actors Michael Ian Black and Tom Kavanaugh, host of the podcast Mike and Tom Eat Snacks. We opened up both bags of tortilla chips, the traditional triangles and the scoops. It's time now for a taste test. See I'm intentionally gonna pick what is sort of like two-thirds of a scoop chip. It's broken on one end but I think that by having it a little bit broken I'm gonna be able to get it into my mouth without cutting the root from my mouth as much. See I'm gonna take the opposite tact just as a contrast. I'm gonna do a full scoop and eat it in one. So I'm fully scooped and now I'm inserting I did spill. There's a thing I like that the scoop doesn't give me that when I dip a chip I like to have a flat surface so on one side on the tongue I can feel the salt. And the scoop I can't get around it enough to get that same sensation I get when I dip the original flat guy. That just sits right where I want it. Right and it alters your ratio because the scoop is so good at holding dip that you end up with a lot more dip in the bite than you would get with a flat chip. Exactly right. So that kind of you're gonna get you know you got to be if you're using scoop chips you got to be here for the dip that's why you're really that's why you're doing it. I have to be mad enough here to admit when I was wrong I'm enjoying the scoop a lot. You like the scoop? I'm enjoying the amount of salsa I'm getting on here and I think it's because when I use the flat jabber and I put it in the chunky medium salsa I'm not getting any spice. When I use the scoop because I'm getting more salsa I'm getting more of the jalapeno and the spice and I'm enjoying a little bit of kick. And the salsa ratio even though it's more than I'm used to I'm enjoying it. I think because I like the salsa so much. Terrific scoop. It's so juicy when you get all that salsa in it. I like it. One thing I do want to add about the scoops though and this is you know I told you what the rocket scientist taught me about chips what the structural engineer taught me about chips because I was talking through with him different shapes like you know why are some shapes stronger than others and he's like the strongest shape in engineering is an arch. Like the Roman aqueducts are still standing because they're held up by arches and he said a three-dimensional arch is a dome. And then I was thinking about the scoop chip and what I realized is that if you take a scoop chip and turn it upside down and put it on your fingertip like a thimble it's a dome. It's a dome. It becomes a dome and if you do that I mean it might be tough with salsa but you can run that thing through cream cheese and it will not break. Yeah that's good. Wow. Yeah that's right that's good. I also commend you for having a rocket scientist and a structural engineer discuss these things. I don't like to do my own horn but I'm doing pretty important work here you know. I mean there's a lot of problems in the world and I'm starting with the big ones and I figured I'll work my way down. And so thank you. Thank you both for recognizing that I really appreciate it. And thank you for thanking us. Let's just spitball here a little bit like if you could come up with a tortilla chip shape that would be new and different and would solve some of the problems we've discussed just throw out you know no bad ideas what's coming in your mind. Animal shapes. I like animal shapes. I was going to say hockey stick. Oh to be able to flick salsa to other people. I see as a goof. Yeah you're saying as I guess as a goof you could do a slap shot. So we said we said we said what shape would you go to. I think that I think the hockey stick would be you know we agree. Why not just make it shape the shape like a spoon. But a scoop is a spoon you know you just got to add a little. But imagine if I had a little handle though on it. Why not go full shovel. I wonder I wonder if we're onto something like it's always sporting events like if you just yeah. Football shaped design like football. Baseball thing you know with the horse hide on it the football the stitching you know that's smart a tortilla chip with a horse hide on it that's smart that's good thinking Tom. Wait I feel like you're not being sincere I don't think you think it's good. No horse hide on a tortilla chip that sounds good. And pigs and pig skin for the football. And pig skin yeah sounds good. Right and you just take that off. Pork rinds basically delicious. Yeah I feel like the football shape has potential. Trader Joe's used to have these long board chips they called in their assertion like mini surf boards. I didn't know that. Those were very good because they were kind of long and skinny so you'd have enough chip to grip enough chip to dip and yet still small enough to get the whole thing into your mouth. That's a good idea. And with no pointy edges. As we wrap things up here we're heading into the Super Bowl which will soon be followed by March Madness and other kinds of sporting events where people eat and gather. What is your strategy overall for surveying the options. Is there an order that you like to eat in do you save the sweets for later. Do you start with wings and go to pizza like just let's talk strategy overall. This is important if we've got like a 1 p.m. tip you know I'll try not to eat especially if I know the snack is something that I really enjoy you know and on game day it's a lot of that. I don't want to have had a roast beef sandwich at 2 and then you know the tip is at 5 or 4 or something and I'm just like you know I want to have chips and the way I do it is I like to have whatever the the crudity or the steam broccoli and all that. I like to have that on the table early and the chips and dip on the table early and then then around half time for example because I like to watch the game that's where it's like do we have some pizza do we have some wings do we have like so a lot of it is the discipline to maintain your hunger level and to not go nuts when somebody puts out a bunch of you know Doritos. It's about maintaining gluttony. It's about discipline because you want to eat throughout and you don't want to go nuts and knock yourself out so that the glucose levels go crazy and you're just like I'm not enjoying the game right. You just it's a it's a tight rope it's a it's not for everybody. A great game is when the game is exciting and you're into it and you don't even notice that you're non-stop you know shoveling food into your mouth and you're not sated right that's that takes that seems like a relatively simple task and it really really isn't. Right I think to sum up what I hear you saying Tom and I actually I really like this as a life mantra even gluttony requires discipline. Yes oh yeah absolutely because you know if you're eating too much and too many bad things you know the risk you take is you're going to knock yourself out and need a nap and then. And the other risk you know if you're just eating mindlessly then like stomach space is a precious resource you know every day has a finite number of bites. Yes and so if you use up a lot of bites and a lot of stomach space on something at the beginning that that may be good but it's like who knows what else the evening has in store you know if you've used up a lot of that stomach space resource on chips and dip and then suddenly someone rolls at a chicken parm sub you know you're going to be upset with yourself that was a that was a a big mistake you made. Yeah right Michael tell me your strategy. My strategy is somewhat different because I'm going to go in with a game plan I'm going to run some reconnaissance on what I know about the people who are hosting I want to know what they're going to be serving I want to know kind of what's going to be there by the time I get there so I'm going to have a game plan however battle plan rarely survives first contact with the enemy so when I show up there is that too I don't know I may have I may have some idea about what I'm going to do but if the wings look particularly good I'm going for the wings because the wings are a limited resource it's not like other people are going to be thinking about my game plan they're not going to be thinking oh we better not have the wings now because black wanted to do that in the second quarter no if the wings look good the wings look saucy I'm going for the wings. Right so you have it you have a game plan but you're you're prepared to call an audible. I have to be able to to improv you know I have to be able to that's just my comedy background. I recently I was at a party where this where this happened I had a game plan and then they brought out pigs and blankets and I was like all right come on yeah I mean the game plan goes out the window because it's you know it's a small platter with the ketchup and the mustard and the stuff in the middle and it's like you know those are going to go fast they're going to go fast they're hot now so it doesn't matter what we're doing when you're getting ready for that party you're not thinking I bet they're going to have pigs in the blanket I'm going to go for those first that pigs in blanket are always going to be a happy surprise nobody's ever planning I didn't know that was happening you don't know and pigs in blankets in particular like something like wings are still good when they're room temp but pigs and blankets are you know there's a shelf life there there's a half life you got to be conscious of absolutely right so so Michael your strategy is really more like a buffet style strategy which is survey all the options before you start taking I don't I don't see how you can do it any other way what about you like so when you when you went to the Super Bowl party with the stadium were you like I'm going to eat most of this or were you like all right so this is for others like what's your what's your strategy so well I mean I already walked into the party knowing that my stadium was not great and then I had the same experience that probably every single other person had there which is you walk in and there's pizza and there's wings and there's a hero and there's all other kinds of there's garlic knots and there's every other thing that people have garlic I hadn't counted on the garlic knots I got it I got it I'm going to the garlic knots that knock there's both back your step we're like right there oh boy one more strategy that I wanted to share it's a bit controversial you tell me what you think I believe that whether you're making your own wings or buying wings from a place the wings should be always done with the sauce on the side the wings should not be sauced at the time of making and I'll tell you why a couple reasons number one wings are crispy you cover them in sauce and especially they're going to sit for a little while they're going to lose all their crisp number two at a big party different people want different levels of spice some people want barbecue some people want teriyaki some people want honey mustard it's impossible to predict how many of each type of flavor the people are they're going to want so if you just cook all the wings and have all the sauces on the side then you can maintain crisp and you can allow people to choose their dip on a like per person basis and that way you never have to worry about having too many hot or too many mild or too many honey mustard I I'm I'm I have a few thoughts about this most of them are going to be critical of you I hate this because because I take wings seriously and I don't like that you're so cavalier with these different sauces maybe somebody likes a mustard maybe somebody likes a teriyaki no if you're eating wings there's only one sauce the sauce is buffalo sauce you can get it in different increments of spice but don't I don't want to hear about your glazes in your tie pickled jalapeno curry wings don't give me this if I have a wing it's going to be a buffalo wing in and I'm sorry I can't abide so no the wings come with sauce you can also get sauce on the side if you want extra sauce but it's if they're going to be presented as they're made in sauce let me ask you Michael because you're saying any level of spice with buffalo sauce is acceptable as I understand it the original buffalo sauce when buffalo wings were and this may be the story may be a bit apocryphal but the invention of buffalo wings is supposedly traced to the anchor bar in buffalo New York and as I understand it the original sauce was hot sauce I believe frank's red hot and butter that was the mixture of the original how can you have buffalo sauce and have it be buffalo sauce and have them be buffalo wings if it's not spicy I mean it could be hot or extra hot but but are mild no there there should always be a level of spice no question okay it should always be a minimal level of spice you and and I think the minimum level is whatever frank's out of the bottle level is that's your minimum level of spice for a buffalo wing all right we can still be friends it was great to chat with you guys really appreciate it our pleasure i've been a fan of your both of you for so long this was fun I just want to say thank you for having us to each the wrong click that's Michael Ian black and Tom Kavanaugh and I can say that after 16 years of waiting it was as much fun as I thought it would be to talk with them check out their podcast Mike and Tom eats snacks wherever you get your podcast you can also catch Mike on the show have I got news for you on CNN hosted by friend of the show Roy Wood Jr also Mike's newest kids book I'm Busy comes out on February 24th and Tom's been in a bunch of tv shows over the years most notably The Flash and Scrubs they're all available to stream next week ahead of Valentine's Day we have a very special episode it's our dating show for the second time ever we are pairing up sporkful listeners sending them on dates and recording the whole thing will we make any matches tune in to find out that's next week if you're looking for more sporkful episodes check out last week's show where I chat with comedian Tom Papa he tells me about getting into sourdough baking long before it was cool how he attempted vegetarianism so he walked into an Italian deli and reconduct one of the most surprising taste tests I've ever done wine and potato chips you're gonna love this one check it out it's up now and hey did you know you can listen to the sporkful and the Sirius XM app yes the Sirius XM app it has all your favorite podcasts plus over 200 ad-free music 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