Listen Again: Julia Gets Wise with Alice Waters

Okay, let's say you buy some apples at the store. You're only going to have a rough idea of where or how they're grown. Maybe you throw the cores in a trash can. You're not thinking about where they're going or you try not to. All in all, our relationship to our food can feel disconnected. One way I try to reconnect is by using my mill food recycler. Sure, mill has totally changed my home life in a lot of practical ways. It works automatically. You can fill it for weeks. It never smells. But this part is just as important. When I use mill, I'm participating in a circular system. All the food I don't eat is helping to grow the food that I do. It makes me feel like I'm part of something bigger. And that feels really, really good. And it's all so ridiculously easy. I just drop my scraps in my mill and it transforms them into nutrient-rich grounds overnight. I have mine sent to a small farm, but if I wanted to, I could use them in my garden or for my backyard chickens. If I wanted backyard chickens, and I don't. And, well, I don't know, maybe I do now. Maybe mill is transforming me too, just a little. If you want to feel more connected or you just want your kitchen to feel less gross, try mills, risk-free trial, and just live with it for a while. Go to mill.com slash wiser for an exclusive offer. Hey, it's me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. We are officially back with a brand new season of Wiser than me. To celebrate you're out of this world's support for our show, we've been brewing up something special. A Wiser than me, mere traveler. It's a versatile, sustainable travel mug to keep your coffee hot and your tea cozy all year round. It's perfect for wise women on the go. Head over to Wiser than me shop.com to grab yours now. Okay, here's the show. This is a favorite poem of mine. It's called Flash Frozen. Here it is. My mother grew up in a homemade world. Her mother stitched sunbondets one stitch at a time for five little girls. Carried pairs, beans, tomato, squash in her apron from the garden to the kitchen. We're steaming mason jars with wide open mouths, stood at the ready to receive. Jars lined the cool basement shelves like picture books, wild with color, waiting for another season. A huge gray pot, quiet on the stove, made soup for the week. In winter, root vegetables bounced, softened in water, fragrant with the earth. Clarence Bird's Eye, born in Brooklyn, practiced taxidermy before joining the department of agriculture as a naturalist posted in the Arctic. There he learned a thing or two watching the inuit make holes in the ice, drop lines, and bring up a fish frozen straight through in the blink of an eye. Clarence brought that thought home in a system that packed food into waxed cardboard cartons, flash frozen, nearly fresh. My mother's freezer was as big as a car. Thursdays were poker night. She could whip up a meal in 20 minutes once she unwrapped the box. How about that? So that was actually written by my mom, Judy Bowles, and good god Almighty, I do love that poem. The grandmother who stitched the sun bonnets and carried pairs and beans into tomato and squash from her garden to her kitchen was my mom's grandma Bessie. My great grandmother, she was the original Farms of Table Chef. Well, I mean, I guess everybody you didn't have a staff and a cook, which is most people, was a farm to table chef not so long ago. My mom and my sisters and I all hold great grandma Bessie in a kind of magical, sainted place. We all really want to be a little bit more like grandma Bessie, especially in the kitchen. I'm very lucky because my little sister Lauren lives in Los Angeles and whenever we get together, which is very often making food delicious food is at the center of what is always a joyful time. She is a baker. I mean, a crazy great baker of amazing breads and muffins and bagels and we are both obsessed with baking desserts. And I make things out of the food that I grow in my garden like tomato sauce and pickles and jams and marmalades and it's all pretty goddamn good if I do say so myself. The thing that my mom catches really so beautifully in that poem is the physical tactile contact with the ingredients that make meals so delicious. The melancholy in it is the loss of that contact. Of course, the poem is about a lot more to family, caring, nourishment and other kinds of loss. You know, I've been thinking a lot about how as we speed forward and technology dominates more and more of our day to day lives, we touch the things that matter less and less. I mean, think about it. We don't hold the newspaper. We look at it on a screen. We don't put pen to paper very often. We don't rest the stereo needle carefully in the groove of a cherished record album. We're a step back. It seems from touching things that matter. I mean, life is easier. Yeah, sure. But even when we go to a beautiful place now, we immediately stick a phone between us and the sunset. God, you know, I mean, there's a loss there too. So maybe that's why cooking beautiful, healthy yummy meals with my sister and her family made with vegetables and hand picked fruit right out of the garden or stuff that's carefully chosen at a farmer's market and spending hours together, you know, working out the menu and working with our hands and our hearts means so so much to me. Food, yeah, I mean, it's the basic. It's the most basic thing of all. And so how lucky them that today we get to talk to Alice Waters. I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus and this is Wiser than me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are Wiser than me. I remember what American cooking was like before Alice Waters. We ate stuff like frozen fish sticks and banquet fried chicken TV dinners and those were treats. I mean, that's what we look forward to when our parents went out to a party. It was it was a dark time for taste buds everywhere. But our guests today knew there was something better. She is the founder of the groundbreaking Shea Panisse, a Berkeley, California-based restaurant where she delved deep into the connections between environment, culture, food and politics by paying close attention to ingredients, not just in how they're prepared, but in how they're produced. She is a pioneer of the farm to table movement, maybe the pioneer and most importantly, she championed the concept that food grown with care and treated with respect in the kitchen could be transformative and of course delicious. Our guests have served up everything from delicious Harry Cote ver and Sunripe and Peaches to believe it or not a braised pair of Werner Herzog's boots and a pot of Rector Duckfatt. We can talk about that later. It blows my mind how many renowned chefs trained with her basically everybody. The truth is her impact on American cooking is immeasurable and it doesn't stop in the kitchen. She's a tireless advocate for sustainable agriculture, food justice and education reform. Through initiatives like the Edible Schoolyard Project, she has provided hands-on experiences that connect students to food, nature and each other while addressing the crises of climate change, public health and social inequality. At its heart is a dynamic and joyful learning experience for every child and you can actually download the lesson plans. Alice is the recipient of some of the highest honors in both food and life including seven James Beard Awards, the ladies medal and the French Legion of honor. Please join me in welcoming an author, cook, activist, mother and woman who is oh so much wiser than me, Alice Waters. Welcome Alice Waters, what a treat to have you with us. Thank you so much, wonderful to talk to you. I'm happy you're here. I'm a little tearful about that introduction. Oh no, no, well it's such a celebration and you have so much to celebrate about yourself and I personally am honored to talk with you today because I'm a ginormous fan of yours. Are you comfortable if I ask your real age? I just turned 80. Nice. And how old do you feel? You know, I've never thought a bad age as being, you know, something I was looking forward to or something I look back on. It's strange that when this happened this year, I mean everybody else was concerned about me. They were worried that I was getting old. And I really feel like age is about how you feel about yourself. And I had a great aunt who lived to 102. Nice. And she was a wonderful inspiration to me, my whole life, her whole life. And I watched how she lived. So when you say you watched how she aged your aunt, what are you witnessing? What are you inspired by? I guess I'm inspired by their jivot of Eve. Yeah, they're wanting to be present. They're wanting to communicate what they know with everybody else. And I heard so generous with that. Yeah, that's so wonderful. Alice, I have to tell you how our lives connected. So I'm very close with my sister-in-law, who's a conservationist and environmentalist in Northern California. And she did an auction for the Trails Forever Dinner that was thrown by the Golden Gate National Park Conservancy. And one of the prizes being auctioned was you and I because it was on hike. Yeah, it was a hike with me and a picnic by you. Honestly, I'm going to tell you right now, I don't remember anything about the hike. And I love to hike. Okay, I'm a big hiker. I don't remember a thing. But I remember that goddamn sandwich was so good, Alice. And it was asparagus and prosciutto. It was on a baguette. There may have been butter, there may have been a rougula. This I can't recall. But all we did was talk about this sandwich. I'm not kidding, I don't remember a thing about the hike. And it was a big hike. So then I went home and I tried to recreate it. And it was complete crap what I made. It was terrible. Well, that's because tell me I think it had I only on garlic garlic mayonnaise and make that with wonderful olive oil and a real sweet garlic and garlic is a main ingredient. Not only for a taste, but for health. Have you seen the film garlic is as good as 10 mothers. No, but I'm going to watch it tonight. Okay, less plank made a film called garlic is as good as 10 mothers. That's a great title. So you made a garlic a only I'm going to now try this again because everything was off the prosciutto was off the asparagus was too stringy, you know, whatever. But I did try anyway. This is this how much I loved it. I have so much work to do today because I'm going to do this garlic mayonnaise. You know, you are known, of course, for making the everyday experience elevated. So I wanted to dig into your daily routine. For example, what do you have for breakfast? Well, I always have my puberty because I had a high cholesterol and I asked all my friends what I should do. And I had many of them tell me drink the fermented puberty a Chinese tea at dark tea and eat whole grains. And I absolutely was rigidly adherent to that prescription and my cholesterol went down a hundred points. Get the hell out of here. No, really, it really did. Wait a minute. Did you take medication to? No, I didn't want to take medication. Fucking God, I can't believe what I'm hearing. And now I've become kind of a puberty salesperson. How do you spell puberty because I'm getting for my husband? I think it is. I make it very dark. I used to be a kind of frankophile in my breakfast. I drank a cafe whole day. I had a piece of toast with some jam of that kind of early morning. And now when I'm drinking that tea, I want something safe for me. So I had this morning, I had a little bit of salad, but I scrambled in an egg. Do you still cook each day? Do you plan your meals? Well, I always want to have the ingredients at my house. So I can cook something if I need to or want to. So I always have salad. I always have great farm eggs. And a lot of this I just get from shape and ease because I want everything from my organic, to the channel to farmers. Yes, the things that I have to have at home are salad and fruit. And I want my lemons. And I have a tree out back. I have herbs all in my backyard. Yes, I can always get rose marion stage and fry them. I can always make something tasty at the last minute. I have a Myer lemon tree too. And it is such an unusual taste. And I always have lemon water in the morning. And if my liar, Myer lemons are ripe. I have my Myer lemon water, which is an elevated lemon water experience. There's just no way around it. And I just recently, by the way, going off topic a little bit, I just started to make ice cream. And I made lemon ice cream. And I'm now I'm thinking, ooh, I'm excited to try to make Myer lemon ice cream because I think that'll be yummy, right? Yes, for 53 years ago, no, 52, not in the first year of shape and ease. Lindsay, who was the pastry chef at shape and ease, started making Myer lemon ice cream and Myer lemon sherbet. And I have to say that that was a wake up, not only for us in kitchen, but for everybody who came to shape and ease. It was the dessert that they wanted again. And it was a long season. So, and we got them from people who brought them or exchanged them for a lunch at the restaurant. They would bring them from their backyard tree. I love to God. I wish I lived near you. I would bring you Myer lemons just so that I could eat that right now. You describe beauty as an essential life force. By the way, I put my dallies here today for you. I saw those first of all. Good. I'm so happy you noticed them. First thing I thought, oh, how beautiful. Thank you. Oh, that makes me happy. Then mission accomplished because those are from my garden. And I just wait every year for those things to pop up and they're going crazy right now. And I'm going to post a picture of this on our social so people can see. But you describe beauty as an essential life force. How do you bring beauty into your life every day? What is there practice that you have? I think you're very like me. You're very into flowers. But talk to me about that. Well, I always want flowers in my house. And it's of the moment in time. I don't want to lips in the middle of the winter. Yeah. And the light locks. I want them just in the spring when they're happening. And it keeps me connected exactly the way food does with where I am in time and place. It's all of those subtleties that I'm so connected to. Have you always been like that? Well, when I was little, my prey dad and my mother used to go out always in the spring and in the fall to look at the trees. And we put drive on roads all in North New Jersey and see these glorious explosions of flowering trees and bushes. We had a head chef, lie locks that I always wanted to go by. But that's kind of I think been in my life since I was very little. And of course everybody had victory gardens during the war. And I'm sure that that really gave me a taste for strawberries and corn and tomatoes that I'll never ever forget. Those are really hot weather vegetables and fruits. And no matter how delicious ours are here, not quite as good as near Jersey. Isn't it interesting to how smells can be so as you're talking about like the lie locks and the tomatoes and I'm growing tomatoes right now. And the smell of a tomato plant is very specific. You know, when I'm very nipping the leaves that I don't want there. My hands get that smell and I love that smell. I think I think you know I'm a mom that's a reteacher. Yes. And I was trained in London in 1968. And she of course believed way back in the 1880s that our senses are the pathway into our mind. And I think of course in this tech world that we live in that we're all sensorally deprived because we aren't touching and smelling and tasting and listening to things that are beautiful and looking at the world, the nature around us. Yes, totally, totally. There's even more wisdom from Alice Waters coming up after this break. Hey, prime members. Did you know you can listen to Wiser than me ad free on Amazon music? Download the Amazon music app today to start listening ad free. If you're like the Wise Women on this podcast, you're really, really busy. That's why my idea makes appliances that handle things while you move on with your life. Like the one touch auto fill French door fridge with a water dispenser that fills your cup perfectly so you don't have to sit there and supervise water. 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I was watching you talking on the with Julia child and you made the mushroom and fennel and Parmesan salad with olive oil and lemon and I thought and I was at the market yesterday and I thought oh god I'm going to try that that looks so divine and so I bought the fennel and the mushrooms and I took it home and I started to slide I don't have a mandolin so I started to slice as thin as I could and then I had a bite of fennel and I thought oh shit I hate fennel I'd forgotten that I hate fennel I don't like the taste of licorice I know I could get you to love fennel but you need to get a little Japanese mandolin because that is an an essential little equipment that I have from my kitchen I'm mortar and a pestle and I have a mandolin they're very inexpensive you have to be careful that you do it slowly but it's not like the big French one that's hard to use and you really could hurt yourself but when you eat a big chunk of fennel I wouldn't want that but if it's shaved thinly and mixed with greens and a great fennagradona with garland it's delicious like that because it's a little bit more than you would think of it as a little tone of an herb I think what's becoming quite clear to me is that is there any house in your neighborhood for sale because I have to move next to you you have to be my neighbor I have to go find you a house I need a house Alice OK I need a house next to you so did you get to know Julia child you know I did I knew her from year two I may be near one of the restaurant and she came and she had the fixed price dinner because that's all we had it again yes three non D five for four courses and you had to eat three dollars in 95 cents to be clear yes yes and when I come over to the table she said to me this is not a restaurant this is like eating in somebody's home and I think she meant it a little bit as an insult no yeah I'm a little bit of what are you doing and I thought it was the greatest compliment the greatest compliment and then we became good friends after that and she always acted as sort of a big sister to me in that respect oh the one show that we did together I was just so embarrassed that I was doing something so foolishly simple but she was so generous of her so fascinating how do you crack it all of open when she knew perfectly well how to do that I didn't and I'm acting like that is something special I'm communicating to people and it was so tender the way that she took care of me I have a Julia child confession story because I live in Santa Barbara where of course she lived at the end of her life yes and she was very close friends with our neighbor at the time Dowell, she was a real army and she would often of course as I'm sure it happens with you as well people would send her food people would send her meat and Dowell our neighbor was a wonderful barbecuer and so she would bring meat to him and then he would barbecue it et cetera and so one day our neighbor said Julia is coming over tonight for cocktail come over for a cocktail and I said oh okay this was by the way this is quite a long time ago and our kids were really young you know this by the way does not reflect well on me so it just heads up about that and so then it came you know was around that time and I was like oh my god I can't go to somebody's house we've got too much to do and the kids and blah blah blah and we didn't go we didn't get out and I I'm going to tell you that if somebody said to me do you have any regrets in your life that would top the list because we didn't go and we missed a chance to meet that icon and good human being so anyway I'm confessing to you my my priest Alice Waters and I hope that you're going to tell me that you forgive my sin I do forgive your sin because I understand completely about taking care of a child and a family at home around dinner time and my new grandchild is absolutely adorable but she takes full time attention and I want to be there for her especially around dinner and I understand the the issues for parents to leave at that time and I think one of the great things that's going on right now are that men are connected with children and are cooking for the family and I just love it it's about sharing the work right sharing the work it's not just women's work in the house it is not it is absolutely not that's the beautiful thing that's going on in this next generation and we're finding out about the passions of each other and the gardening is the same way why aren't we all planting victory gardens why are we planting wherever we can and growing food by the way my mother's 90 and she had her own very own victory garden as a little girl and the word victory garden is so beautiful I think I have to make a sign and put that on my garden that says victory garden I did that during the pandemic and neighbors came over and said how do you keep the dear away from your vegetables and I never had talked to my neighbors before all of a sudden there how do you keep the dear away and by the way how do you keep the bunnies away the bunnies these fucking bunnies in my there they're making me crazy I figured out how how plant something for them to eat that they like and that's over there and so the things that you want are over here and what do they like what to bunnies like probably yes I've never had the problem with bunnies I've just had the problem with deer well I guess I'm going to have to plant carrots all over my house because I've actually turned into farm and regregar I mean I'm thinking like I got a I got to trap these things and eat them or something I want to switch gears to ask you a question about motherhood actually specifically because I was really interested in your memoir you talked about your mother's postpartum when nobody had would discuss postpartum and her help receiving help was considered a taboo and the arrival of your first period which you felt you couldn't mention even with your pregnancy it struck me how little women were supposed to know or were allowed to know about their bodies when you were growing up and I'm wondering how did that sort of culture affect or influence the way you raised your body raised your daughter were there things that you found you had shame about that you had to find a way to get over I'm curious about that because I think frankly my mother had the same experience about that challenge well I did I was in Berkeley in the 60s yes right there's a that that I'm going to my mind in so many ways yes but I still had those tapos in me and I think that you know in some ways Vanny's father did not have the those in his life or didn't didn't feel that way about nakedness or just the parts of your body that are just not to be talked about and Vanny opened up my mind in a way interesting she did she helped me to really accept myself in that in that way she wasn't afraid of those words yes still can't say them really strange no I can't I can't say them quite I can think them but I can't say them interesting I believe in it I believe in having having skeletons that we learned from in our science class in fourth grade we had that we don't know anything about anatomy anymore where is our goal bladder I had to ask when I've went to the talk and turn where is that I mean why don't we know and what is it doing by the way what is he yes and what is it to I mean people get rid of their goal bladder don't they I know we don't know anything anything about the functioning of our bodies yes and I mean it was only Kennedy that helped us learn about exercise and what our muscles did and who any encouraged us all to exercise and and that was the beginning of my my really sort of passion about it but you know we didn't we thought in we still do things of exercise as hard yeah as opposed to just a pleasure yes I mean it's like walking at it in the heat and seeing the stars yes watching the sunset even if you're in a city it's like you get to move and breathe in a kind of an air that's different and I just think that we have such a wrong understanding well it goes with the food too it's completely misunderstood what is good for us and what is not yeah indeed it really is I would love to shift here and talk about your life as a mother you had your daughter at age 40 which is just phenomenal by the way I love the name Fanny can you talk about that transition because of course you had been running shape and he said that time and then talk about what you did once Fanny was born and how you managed that I'm going to say transition Fanny was a child of the restaurant I did bring her there very early on yes and the waiters she would call around in the dining room and I wrote a book about her when she was 10 years old and making her pizza upstairs in the restaurant with McKellys and all of those experiences she had at a very early age but I wanted her to understand that that food was right of the moment and needed to be eaten you know from from the garden to the table that experience so we had a garden out and back at the house but another great story which I might have told for one time was she and her friend wanted to have blueberry pancakes and I said this isn't the time it's winter time there's no blueberries she said I'm going to go to the store 18 I said organic blueberries remember that so she comes back with a little organic label on the blueberries I said where did she get that and in the end she had to admit that she stole the organic label from another package and that put them all with the berries did she confess in the moment or or later no it just a few moments later about 10 oh my bless her heart this is a child rebelling against Alice waters that is Alice but explain how I mean as you as you acknowledge you know being at home at dinner time putting a child to bed that doesn't that doesn't show we say jive very well with running a restaurant so can you talk about that balance how you managed it did you step back a little bit did you well I did I knew we were open for six days and I knew that I couldn't work six days but maybe I could work three days and have another chef work three days and they would get paid for full time but they would only work three days and it worked so well because they were inspired they brought another few point to the restaurant that I decided to do that for the cafe chefs and for the pastry chefs and we've done this since I had my daughter you know 40 years ago I mean and it changed the life of the restaurant because the people who were working on the menus could go out at me could take care of their families could go on vacation the other chef would cover for them right and everybody who worked at the restaurant would have several opinions you know they would learn how to make that salad that way and this way with different chefs and so I am convinced that spending that money in that way is what has kept the restaurant alive for these 53 years. Well I think it's interesting because it kind of it really does overlap with what you were saying earlier and that is the connection to the people with whom you're working the almost ensemble work that you're doing as a restaurant and that is of course there is so much respect built into that way of working that it is so ingrained that it is so that it is so ingrained there is nothing but respect there and people respond to that people it brings out the best in someone and and that's a great life lesson it can be applied to so many things it certainly I can I do apply that to the work that I do when I'm working in an ensemble which is my favorite thing in the world to do and that kind of give and take and the ability to do that and the ability to listen and the ability to share in a moment it's a great life lesson it's time to take another break we'll be right back with Alice Waters in just a moment. 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Hey it's hussaminhaj here from the hussaminhaj doesn't know podcast among other things and I hate the smell of rotting food almost as much as I hate wasting it in the first place thankfully now I have mill mill as a food recycler that is odorless guiltless and completely effortless see I've always wanted to reduce my food waste is one of the easiest ways for an individual to make a big impact on the environment but I just cannot stand the mess of a compost bin in the kitchen but with mill all you do is drop in your scraps and you let it go it works quickly and quietly turning your food even small bones into nutrient rich grounds now I take out the trash way less yet my kitchen smells way better and I don't have to feel guilty when my zucchini gets moldy plus it looks cool yeah this trash can alternative is so fly people keep asking me where I got the giant Alexa it's chic and savvy but you have to live with mill to really get it good thing you can try it risk free for 90 days right now and get $75 off with code hmdk visit mill dot com slash hmdk that is mill dot com slash hmdk before we stop talking today but I would like to talk to you for hours and hours some and eight things yes well you must and I want you one thing I'd love for you to tell is the the Verna Herzog story with the boot would you mind explaining the genesis of that it's such a good story well it's a story about two filmmakers a Verna Herzog and Errol Morris and they were both people I knew because of my dearest friend Tom Loney yes and he came he used shape and he says his dining room so I'm at you know George Lucas and Coppola and and Curacao and everybody came to shape because of Tom and Tom encouraged a film to be made about Verna Herzog making a bet with Errol Morris referring to a film that Errol Morris was going to make Verna said if you do make this film Errol Morris I will eat my shoe then Tom Loney said oh well Alice well well cook the ship Alice will cook the ship and Verna brings by a a walking boot that he had a big old tough and I said for no I I'm not sure I can cook that he said cook it and I stopped it with garlic and I tied it all up and I figured it was a little bit like cooking a duck coffee cook it in the fat cook it in duck I'm assuming it was leather it was leather oh god yes yes they're not cooking some sort of Gore-Tex situation yeah it was leather but yes anyway I started cooking it and cooking it and cooking it and cooking it and funny Tom came body to get the shoe to take over to the auditorium where Verna was going to eat the shoe because Errol made the film and I could not really make it up but Verna and his enthusiasm started to eat the ship I watched him eat about he had a very sharp scissors that he cut it with and he did chew it off and he didn't eat the whole thing but he he did a good job and did he go straight to the emergency room after that no but I think that is so remarkable it's a testimonial to really believing in what you're doing yes and believing in film to that degree to understanding the value of a certain filmmaker knowing it's important hit the films he's making and that is I guess the way I would feel too I'm not sure I would eat a shoe but I might have to do something that I didn't like because I wanted to show people that it was that important to me yeah I get it I have to say that was an extraordinary story and speaking of Tom Lutty I know that he passed away last year very sadly for our listeners Tom Lutty was a film producer who co-founded the Telluride Film Festival and I wanted to ask Alice actually if you don't mind about the things that change as we age and I'd like to talk about how you deal with grief and loss because you're so community oriented in the most healthy and magical way really how do you rebuild the community as you move through grief as you have lost people I mean this is a part of life and how how what how do you do it well I wouldn't have believed that I could do it uh really I was afraid of death and I had my four dear friends die within six months four hours four all four Tom Lutty who was my friend of 50 years 55 years I had Fritz Strife who wrote every book with me wrote every letter to a president for me he walked with me every morning and I haven't been able to imagine my life without him and then Steve Cromley who was the first waiter at Shapanese he was the head of the cafe at the top of the stairs for everyone he was Shapanese and the fourth one was of course David Goins and David had a stroke and he was paralyzed and David is somebody who always did things the way he coffee with Konya you know that kind of person always knew what he wanted and there he was in the hospital paralyzed and I knew he wouldn't be there long and even though his sister's daughter wanted him to to um stay alive and go through rehab he said I want to go home he said to his best friend Fritz Strife from the printing press days I want a blueberry muffin and a bribe whiskey he ate the blueberry muffin drank the bribe whiskey and died wow that was it I learned so much about dying some did it poorly that they couldn't help it they didn't plan for it they didn't think it was going to happen and some had partners who helped them really be with their friends right to the end who had their favorite musicians come and play music and fight it Shapanese into their house and then there were people that wanted to do it in private it did it when their partner you know left on a trip and yeah and they were all so different in the yeah and I saw what it was like when you don't have your wishes written down and notarized before you die you can't count on friends and family to do that because they may be stricken with grief and they have families that want to do something other want to have cremations I've already told Fanny yes you know I've got a backup for you if you don't do what I want and I want to be buried in the crowns because if there are now cemeterias where there trees yes a green burial no casket just I want to be part of free generative agriculture I want to nourish the soil don't want a casket just in there and I I can't probably do it in my backyard so she could have a lettuce garden there but I really think it's important just think of the way that people have been buried since the beginning of time and I'm sure that that was part of of what kept the soil so so rich with all of the nutrients is the burials it's interesting isn't it that you know we all haven't common the fact that we've been born mystically magically born in this moment and we all have in common that we're all going to go yes but isn't it interesting that people really push away that fact yes and to your point about can we say dying well that there's a denial in place that is an obstacle to dying well I think there is huge obstacle even the people that are very very committed about it somebody's got questions for them that they can answer and it goes in different directions but I I saw that that I I need to prepare myself and not just mentally but physically and I just appreciate the cultures that care about this yes like the Japanese culture particularly I'm so interested in the way they treat children and schools and and how they treat older people and they care for them I've always wanted to come you right to the end for my friends I promised that and from the time I was 30 I just thought what if we all just live together yeah until we go and Ruth Rideshaw was asking about where that came and was today yeah oh and maybe a Santa barber maybe can I join it by the way if you put it your hand I would oh thanks I'd love to be in it I'd love to be in it um I want to ask you quick little questions um before we go is there something you go back and tell yourself when you were 21 pause oh really don't just tear us through your life so quickly I mean I was hard you know of the respeach movement and you know the whole drinking and living and the sexual freedom times the stop the war I mean and we were so kind of starved for connection with each other but it's very difficult to do when we aren't really encouraged and taught in college about what the bigger world is about and that was something that Mario Savio taught me at Perkley during the free speech movement he said we need to learn from other people who have other ways of living pause and pay attention pause and pay attention now of course I'm running like crazy right now trying to change the world I know I know I'm running too but it's something I have to tell myself as well in fact yesterday I was taking my dog for a walk and we walking through the garden and I was actually admiring some plants that are in bloom and then I saw a hummingbird land on a little tiny tiny branch of a this particular plant and I just stood there watching it and it was clear that this is a bird who's guarding an S cannot see the nest you know how tiny these things are and I thought oh I've I've got it I have to take the dog to the vet I've got to meet with this person but I just stayed there and I sort of been thinking about that ever since just sort of watching the hummingbird sit and so I'm taking I'm I'm thinking about your that advice I think we would all benefit to pause and pay attention much more often than we do particularly in this country well that's it's exactly the kind of walk I take every morning I'm just looking at what's growing and I'm just fascinated by it and it's happening everywhere I mean you don't have to go to Central Park no I mean the birds are everywhere right and flowers are everywhere and they're changing all the time yeah of course and so you you notice things even in the dand in lines that are in the little space between the sidewalk and the street Alice I wanted to show you the picture of the hummingbird that I took yesterday can can you see that oh I love it I've got some pictures just like that for you yeah it's pretty fun to see them just oh hanging out incredible isn't that dear yes yeah yes Alice Waters I can't thank you enough for generously giving us so much of your time today I'm indebted to you I hope that some day we get to spend time together now there's always a seat for you bless you thank you for everything today thank you for asking me wow well what a beautiful conversation that was with Alice I just can't wait to talk to my mom about this one let's get her on a zoom right away hi mom nice week mom okay I just had the most wonderful conversation with Alice Waters oh what an extraordinary woman she is what what a huge impact that she's had on this world yes we have heard a thank for the farm to table movement and regenerative farming and sustainability you know she brought that into the fore absolutely and and got us away from SpaghettiOs yeah got us away from SpaghettiOs and that's what you grew up on SpaghettiOs and banquet fried chicken dinners we love that I happen to mention that in my intro of her but don't worry mom it's all good it's all fine yeah well you look okay I hope so far so good yeah she talked about her parents victory garden and just to be clear the victory garden idea was brought about by President Roosevelt right mom during world war two he encouraged people to plant gardens and call them victory gardens in support of the war effort can you talk about your victory garden what was the idea behind it sort of nationally and then what was your thinking about it when you were a little girl oh I mean I thought it was gigantic I mean that if you planted if you planted your vegetables and you had your family eat them that you would win the war it was just as what's that and it was just a victory and every family would never have to go to the store because you had all your own vegetables and made you independent and and made made just win the war so I I had a fairly small plot that was out the side door I was a good sunny corner of our house the backyard and you were about seven seven or eight right exactly so I got hold of seeds but I planted them way too close together I didn't point I'm just how much space each one needed well at any rate not too much happened in that garden except for carrots and I remember very well one day riding my bike up to the side driveway and seeing these little green tops coming yeah and I thought oh we're winning the war this is so great it was so excited and I tried to keep watching but I got too excited so I started to pull them out enjoy it they were like little hair carrots so they were like little I mean you could barely see them they were so darn and so anyway then I tried to leave some in there but I just kept getting excited every time I looked at them I did my harvesting way too early so they were like little tiny like hair pins coming out exactly hair pins I bet they were tasty because they were so baby yes right very sweet but all those things that we did the scrap metal and then tin cans that you gathered and then you took them to the scrap metal center and you bought victory stamps and all those small things that we did seemed to me to be crucial and I really as I had my red wagon it was gathering up tin cans I was convinced that that was going to win the war mom and wasn't there rationing too oh yeah there was rationing of sugar and butter and what we didn't get any butter but we got oleal margarine which was sort of a white stuff and then you added yellow dye to it oh dear I was just terrible I was awful and the what was the idea of the victory garden just what was the idea politically why did he suggest that people plant gardens I don't know somehow I think probably I'm imagining that was Eleanor Roosevelt yeah because he was very influenced by the work in Cornell and Cornell was the place that had the first really home economics that was not just stupid I mean it was very scientific so here's what my exterior brain my phone is telling me about why Americans were asked to plant victory gardens officials reminded Americans that a well planned victory garden was not only patriotic but could provide a family with nutritious and tasty food America had a reputation as a land of plenty but World War 2 challenged the nation's ability to grow and distribute food because obviously the distribution of food is an expensive undertaking so that's a really fascinating idea and I know it was such a formative part of your life and it was a formative part of Alice's life as well which is just so so interesting oh sure anyway I hope that our paths cross again because I really really like Alice she's just a lovely person all right um so you're lovely too and now I'm going to say goodbye to you okay well I will say goodbye to you too I love you thank you for talking to her and talking to me okay love you mommy have a wonderful day okay thanks you too bye there's more wiser than me with lemonade a premium on apple you can listen to every episode of season three add free subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each episode subscribe now by clicking on the wiser than me podcast logo in the apple podcast app and then hitting the subscribe button make sure you're following wiser than me on social media we're on Instagram and TikTok at wiser than me and we're on Facebook at wiser than me podcast wiser than me is a production of lemonade media created and hosted by me julie Louis Dreyfus this show is produced by Chrissy Peas Jamila Zara Williams Alex McCohen and oha Lopez Brad Hall is a consulting producer Rachel Neal is VP of new content and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson executive producers are Paula Kaplan Stephanie Whittles Wax Jessica Cordoba Kramer and me the show is mixed by johnny vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber and our music was written by Henry Hall you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music special thanks to will shlagel and of course my mother Judith bowls follow 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