More Happier: Does Money Stress You Out? Mrs. Dow Jones & Reema Khrais on What Helps

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Hello, we are here for more Happier, a podcast where we get happier. Today's episode is the next in our roundtable conversation series, and the topic today is our financial lives. For many of us, dealing with money is a source of dread, anxiety, guilt, just general discomfort, a constant chore that we're trying to avoid. In this roundtable, we'll talk about how we can design our financial lives better to gain greater feelings of peace and control. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness and human nature. I'm host of the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast, and I also have a new podcast, Since You Asked. That's an advice podcast with a twist. And I'm also the author of many books, including The Happiness Project and Happier at Home. Those two are particularly relevant to our discussion today. And joining me today, two terrific guests. I am so looking forward to this conversation. First, Haley Sachs, who has an AKA Mrs. Dow Jones. Haley Sachs is a leading voice in financial literacy for millennials and Gen Z. She's a financial expert, host of the Financial Tea podcast, and author of Future Rich Person, The New Rules for Building Wealth. Hello, Haley. How are you? I am so excited to be here. I am a huge fan of your work, so I'm a little bit starstruck, but can't wait for this. This is so nice to hear. And we are also joined by Reema Kreis. Reema is the host of the weekly Marketplace podcast, This Is Uncomfortable, a show about life and how money messes with it. She began her career in audio as an NPR Crockfellow and joined Marketplace as a reporter in 2016, where she has covered a wide range of social and economic issues. Hello, Rima. Hello. Thank you so much for having me here. I'm so excited to talk about this. This is going to be great. I mean, this is a fraught subject, right? Within the larger topic of happiness, I think issues related to money are among the most emotionally charged. So let us dive into the core question of why do money matters feel so hard and so fraught? And what are some of the things that we can do in an immediate practical way to replace those bad feelings with maybe some of the calm that can come from self-knowledge and self-awareness? And how to get started ourselves with grappling with our own behavior and attitudes. But first, let's just jump in with the most basic scene setting question. So Haley, and I'm going to ask you this too, Rima, if you had to pick one big reason why managing money feels like such a dreadful chore to so many people. What do you think is at the core of that? I think that managing money has a big PR issue because it's really big. Yeah, it's been framed and marketed to us as like this moral judgment tool versus then, yeah, versus something that you can actually use to build your life. So like when you think about managing money, you're always thinking about how you have to cut back and deprive yourself. And so obviously no one wants to do that and they avoid it because they're like, I want to have my latte. I want to enjoy my life, spend money. And so it's really built on just restriction and shame. And so of course our brains resist it, which is I'm getting my Gretchen on talking about brains. But yeah, so I think that like the key is is like shifting it from like, what am I cutting to like, what am I building? How am I redirecting this towards the life that I actually really want? So reframing it in that way. How about you, Rima? What would you say? Yeah, no, exactly. I think shame is the big word here for a lot of people. Opening a bank account isn't just about looking at numbers. We attach so much meaning to our finances and it's easy to start telling ourselves stories about what those numbers say about us, whether we're responsible enough or whether we're keeping up or falling behind. And I think that's usually when feelings of shame can creep in. And once that happens, avoidance becomes a very natural and reasonable response. And a lot of it comes down to our brains. We don't avoid these dreadful chores because we're lazy or we don't care. We avoid them because it comes with these heavy emotional consequences like guilt or shame or sense of helplessness. And our brains, as you know very well, Gretchen, are really good at steering us away from anything that makes us feel bad. And it becomes a habit loop. So, you know, you open your bank account, you feel that spike of anxiety or self-judgment, you close it, you feel the relief. And the more you do that, then the worse it gets, because it's been so long since you've checked that it's even scarier. So yeah, it builds on itself in a negative way. And that habit is built on emotion. And so until we take some of that shame and threat out of money, we're asking people to override their nervous systems with willpower, which we know is not tenable. Well, this is why I think that the kind of conversations that you two lead are so important because a lot of shame is feeling like I'm the only one. Everybody would shun me if they knew what I did. And when you know, like a lot of people are grappling with this, a lot of people do the same thing. A lot of people are in just this kind of situation. It takes some of that shame away and you feel like, okay, it's not just me. There's larger forces at work. What can I do about it? And it seems to me like one of the things too, like coming down to the brain of it all, is that a lot of times we have conflicting desires. How would you suggest for somebody to think about it if they're like, the thing is, I really, really want to save, but I also really, really want to travel. And I think, yeah, I should think about the future, but I also want to embrace today. And I want to spend money on other people and generosity is really important to me, but I also want to spend on myself. Or I really think it's important to have good health and I want to join a gym, but then like, I also want to have drinks with my friends. How do you suggest people get clarity on their own values? Yeah. I mean, I think that But a big issue with money is that we are never taught it in school and we never really, yeah, we never examine our relationship with it. So we're just sort of running around with like chicken with our heads cut off, like trying to get where we want to go. But we have no actual plan or like understanding of how to get there or how to live that full life that we all desire so much. And so I think you have to take, it sounds woo-woo, but you have to take a little bit of time to like sit down and define your core financial values because you can have anything, but you can't have everything. And without knowing that, you're gonna always have that tension between saving and spending. And that will also just lead to more guilt, which will make you want to avoid your finances even more. It's a loop. And so you have to figure out what matters to you, why it matters. And then you can create a solution where you are able to spend on it. And I think it also really matters to ask yourself, what money values did I grow up with? And are they actually mine? Yes. Because before you can make sense of competing goals, I think it's important to separate what genuinely matters to you versus what you may have absorbed from your family or your culture or society more broadly. And, you know, just it's so fascinating to me how little we actually know about our own relationship with money because so much of it is driven by unconscious beliefs. the messages we internalized when we were younger or how we observed our own families talking about the rich and the poor or our communities. And so I think we connect emotions to money before we even have words to describe those emotions. And then that hardens into beliefs that follow us into adulthood. And so, you know, like maybe you're someone who feels guilty spending money on things that aren necessary even if that brings you joy And when you slow down and look at it you might realize that like oh growing up money was framed as something that you should only use for needs or wanting more money was seen as selfish And so that kind of framing I think can have a huge impact on how you make decisions today, even if it no longer reflects what you actually value. Here's a really good example that does like a very small concrete example that I've noticed in myself. When I was little, we didn't buy books. We went to the library and it was like a whole joyful ritual, go to the library. But if we were driving to my grandparents' house, which was like a whole day drive into Nebraska. Then we would go to the bookstore and I could pick like six books or something like that. And so to me to this day, I still go to the library all the time, love libraries, but buying a book feels like a luxury. And we would never buy hardback books. We would buy paperback books. And when I got married to my husband and he would regularly buy hardback books, I was like, it wasn't even like I was judgmental. I was just like, oh my gosh, I didn't know it was possible to live like this. You just walk in and buy three hardback books? Like what is happening? But even to this day, And it just shows even with a very small specific thing, it still colors my response to something decades later. Did we ever have a conversation about this? No, it was just this was just the way our family did it. Well, you internalized. I internalized it and we never even talked about the values. It was just this is how we do. And we're also like it's so normalized in our culture to like be in therapy and like work on your mental health or to go to workout classes or get a trainer if you want to improve your fitness. but it's not normalized to deal with your money issues, even though studies show that these beliefs are set by the time we're seven years old. Seven years old. And so I think creating the space, especially in this new year, to actually sit down with yourself and examine this is one of the most powerful things you will do with your finances for your whole life. And also trying to figure out what you want the money for, which is what we were talking about earlier. I've talked to so many people over the years who just want more money for the sake of money. And they're just on this treadmill and they don't know when to get off. But when you know what you're working towards, I try to think of money as the tool. It's not the goal, right? It helps you get to your goals. So you can ask yourself, like, what is important for me in this season? Is it helping my parents? Is it paying down my debt? Is it investing in my health? And so I think it's, like I said, it's always going to feel like a treadmill unless you're actually clear on what it is that you're trying to accomplish. That's because there's no end to it. So you're right. Otherwise, how do you even market? Well, coming up, we are going to talk about the problem of when we feel paralyzed by guilt because we've made mistakes or done things wrong in the past. But first, this break. Gretchen, we recently had to get new blinds for Jack's room, and it was so easy to use three-day blinds. They are the leading manufacturer of high quality custom treatments in the U.S. and so convenient. You get local professionally trained design consultants with an average of 10 plus years of experience who come to your house and give you a free no obligation quote the same day. 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Okay, Haley and Rima, I think something that is very common, and we've touched on this already, is when you feel so guilty about a mistake that you've made in the past or practices that you didn't start. And you're like, oh my gosh, I'm X years old. And why didn't I do this? And I'm spending too much. I'm not saving. I haven't been investing. And then maybe then it's leading to this feeling of shame and avoidance that we were talking about, where then it gets harder and harder to productively engage in these issues. Do you think that there's some kind of reminder or mantra or framework that can help people move past that regret into more constructive action and self-compassion? Yeah. I think maybe even from what we've gleamed from our discussion so far today is like, these are beliefs that you've had set since childhood. No one ever taught you, and you're just running around expecting to be perfect and for the commas to add to your bank account, but you have no strategy or wisdom about what you want or how to get it. And nobody's talking about it that you know. Everybody's dealing with it on their own. Yes. It's like sex or death. Everyone is just tight-lipped. And so I think having empathy and compassion for yourself about all of that, because it's not just you. Most people are struggling with this for these exact reasons. And then trying to write maybe if there's like a few money decisions that really haunt you, like maybe you got like a car loan or something that was super high interest rate and you feel like you got, you know, super taken advantage of reframing it to be about what you learned. Like, okay, I learned that I need to research loans more and get second opinions before I take one out. I think that is such a great suggestion because it switches it from I made a terrible mistake to like we all learn from experience and usually it's from a big mistake and now I won't make that mistake again. So it is that reframing to have it be positive. Yeah, I love that. Okay. Any other suggestions? That's super helpful. Well, that's essentially similar point to what I was going to say of just like separating the facts from the story you're telling yourself about them. Because a lot of the decisions, like we've said, we make these decisions and we beat ourselves up over them, but they maybe made sense at the time. Like maybe we were responding to a feeling of stress or just like trying to get through a difficult stretch of time. And that doesn't mean the choice was ideal, but it also isn't some character flaw. And so, yeah, like we've said, feeling guilt and shame, it doesn't really, it doesn't help us at all. We just go into protection mode. And so practically something that I've done over the years is just like sitting down, looking at my finances and just noticing what I noticed. What are the patterns? Like, why did I make these purchases during this time? What emotion was I trying to fix? What thing was I trying to solve for? And I think once you can remove a lot of that meaning you're attaching to the numbers or the story that you're telling yourself, then you can start being more self compassionate. You can start looking at your finances without being in like defense mode. Because that, yeah, like I said, a lot of our money decisions don't happen in a vacuum. They happen when we're feeling stressed or tired and lonely or whatever. And self-compassion just acknowledges that context instead of like pretending that we should be rational and practical at all times because we are very irrational with our money. Well, it's interesting. I was just hearing a discussion where a woman who had a lot of debt was saying that she had received a windfall because she had inherited some money from her father when he died. And that looking back, she was really full of regret that she didn't invest the money, she didn't pay down debt. and they were saying, oh, the research shows that this kind of windfall, people often don't treat it like regular money. They feel like it is a different kind of money. There's all different kinds of money, which is super confusing. So true. Or like even like bonuses people are confused about too. Or tax refunds, I see it with all the time, which is so crazy because a tax refund basically means that you gave the government a 0% interest loan and then they're paying it back. I mean, it's this whole idea of girl mouth, which I hate and I am like a big proponent against where it's like having to sort of trick yourself into making financial decisions instead of just facing them head on Like oh I well I returned this outfit and I got a credit So now that yeah that money is free money you know But again, it's all about alignment because it's like that is just someone who is hiding from themselves a little, right? And like trying to trick themselves. But if you're in alignment with your goals and you're working towards them, then money is just money that helps you get there. Like it's exactly what Rima said, where it's like money is not the goal, money as the tool. Yeah, that's a really helpful mantra that it's not the goal in itself. It's a tool. So how are you, are you using it to get what you want? And I remember talking to somebody who was like, my goal is safety and security. I really want to be safe and secure and safe for the future. But he was spending so impulsively. But again, I think it's back to the idea that you two were saying earlier about knowing your values. Like maybe if he'd really sat down and acknowledged how much he yearned for security, he would have seen like, well, what you're doing day to day is really not taking you towards that value. Yeah, exactly. Well, what do you think about when people just feel like they're not in control of their spending, where they're maybe spending more than they can afford or that they want to afford, and they just don't feel in control? I think now we're surrounded by cues that can really get people to just one click or impulse purchase. Do you have any suggestions? Go ahead. Go ahead. No, we're both like foaming at the mouth. We're like, you want to know about this? We know this. Bye now, pay later. Go ahead, girl. No, yeah, yeah. I think about this a lot. And I talk with a lot of people who overspend, want to get, you know, rein in their finances. And I think an obvious solution might be to like, get really striked and be really rigid with your budget. But I think as is true with so many other parts of our lives, when we try to rein something in too much, it becomes hard to stick to and easily swing back into the negative outcome we're trying to overcome. And so I think first, Something I hear a lot and it's good to recognize is that spending feels good for a reason. It gives us a dopamine hit. And so in that moment, like I was talking about earlier, it can help ease whatever bad feeling or stressor you might be experiencing. And so a lot of the work is figuring out the emotional triggers behind your spending and understanding what that spending is doing for you. So this is what the patterns that you were talking about would be illuminating as well. Yeah, exactly. And just like creating a beat before you are making that purchase or even going further back from that point and looking more broadly at your spending patterns and thinking like, when is this usually happening? What feeling am I hoping this will change? Is there another way I can meet this need that maybe is a little cheaper or doesn't involve spending money? So those are like some questions you can ask yourself. But I also have talked with many experts over the years who've told me the importance of, you know, with any kind of negative habit you're trying to kill of adding some friction. So with overspending, I think creating like a 24-hour pause on non-essential purchases or moving discretionary money into like a separate account. I talked with someone recently who gives herself what she calls an allowance card. And so she was like, yeah, I just have to treat myself like my parents did when I was younger and tell myself that this is a separate bank account, separate card, and I don't feel guilty when I'm spending it. And I'm doing the math each month to know that this is how much I'm able to spend on discretionary stuff. But I'm curious what you think, Haley. I'm sure you have things to add on to it. No, you really nailed it. But one thing that I also like to consider is that we are the most advertised to generation of all time. Like our phones are just walking billboards. We have so much opportunity to buy things and so much marketing that tells us that we need more things. So that emotional pull could be like, yeah, you're sad about something that happened in your day, but also like even the emotion of a sale of it being like 70% off that feeling of being like, well, I'm going to miss the thing that's going to change my life. So I have to like go through 40 pages of sale to make sure that I like got everything that I don't need really. And so I think making yourself less susceptible to that, like, you know, trying to curate your content diet a little bit, uh, unfollowing influencers who you think really make you just feel like you need more, you know, unsubscribing from newsletters that are just causing you to use Apple Pay, like Apple be paying, you know, and just really starting to create a world around you where there's less access to you to spend. Less cues, less cues, less cues. Those are great suggestions. Coming up, we're going to talk about how to create a financial plan and not get intimidated by the idea that it has to be like the perfect spreadsheet that you can use for the rest of your life. But first, this break. Are you a trailblazer, a risk taker, someone with countless tales of epic adventure? Well, I'm not quite there yet, but I'm working on it. 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They don't know what that looks like, or they think, well, if I'm going to do this, I really need to get it right. I need to have a spreadsheet. I've got to account for everything. How realistic is that? What is a good enough financial action plan look like for somebody who's feeling overwhelmed? How would you just gently get them started? I can relate to this so much. Several years ago, I had this moment where I was like, oh, I need to be more intentional with my spending and my finances. And I felt very overwhelmed. I also spent hours looking up the perfect spreadsheet, trying to watch the YouTube videos that would teach me how to get my finances in order. And then it didn't really work. It always kind of backfire. And so then I just started really small. I would sit down on the couch, get my favorite drink, maybe put on like a TV show in the background just as noise. And I would put a timer on because I was like, I don't want to do this for more than 20 minutes. Okay, good. So you knew that the end was in sight. That's a really useful thing. This is not fun, but it's not for long. But I got to do it. Yeah. And it'll be over. And so then I opened up my accounts and I did similar to what I was describing earlier, where I just looked at my purchases. I wasn't at the point where I was trying to budget or make a specific plan. Again, I was just trying to notice what I noticed, trying to be aware, more aware of the numbers, what's coming in, what's going out. And it sounds so simple, but the more I did that, the easier it became to confront my finances. And then eventually I started budgeting and investing. And again, it's like breaking that habit loop of avoidance. And then I had more fun with it. I would start making these spreadsheets and color coding them. And I was actually looking forward to those 20-minute sessions where I could just look at my finances and figure things out. Well, this is interesting because research shows that just monitoring something, people tend to do a better job with it, even if they're not consciously trying to change. That just knowing what you're spending and, as you say, the patterns of what you're spending, people will start to behave more in line with the way that they wish that they would behave. And so it's a good reminder that you don't have to come down with a hammer and say, okay, I'm going to give up every unnecessary thing. It's like, just see what's there. Just look. How about you, Haley? Would you add anything to that to get the novice going? Yeah, I mean, I fully relate to being the like type B friend who is using her like passport at the bar because she forgot her ID. Same, same. And I think that I, because of that, I always thought that like something that really prevented me from having any sort of like financial progress or growing wealth before I came into St. John's, the before times, was just this idea that because I wasn't that girl who like had the perfect handwriting, I was always like a mess at school, unorganized backpack and locker, like, and there were those girls with like every I dotted and T cross. Because I wasn't that kind of person, that this was not for me. but it's so not true. You can be the type B person and also be really successful with money. And like, that's just a limiting belief. But I would say like something that really helps while you're doing what Remo's calling, which like I call a money date, which is like a set time every month that you use to look at your finances. And I will say like, I do that every month religiously, but I still never want to do it. Okay. All right. It's like, I'm doing well. It's just like annoying. It's like the same way going to the gym is annoying. You know, you're going to feel better after, but like, I don't expect it to be something that's like really fun that I'm like, woo, time for my money date. It's more like, I got to get this done. This is just part of the business of being me. And so expect it to be sort of annoying. And then also I would say knowing how much your life costs without your additional spending is really helpful number to calculate in those early days. So like knowing your fixed expenses, like a lot of people, you know, they don't have a number at hand where they're like my utilities, my wireless, my, you know, bare bones groceries, no fancy mustards or whatever, just like what I need to survive and rent or mortgage and car, like whatever I need to live my life bare bones, like what that number is, they don't really know what that is And so just knowing that number can be really helpful too in terms of you know helping you start budgeting And why Why is it that knowing that number is so helpful That number is super helpful because your goal at the end of every month is to have what I like to call action money, which is money that you earned and didn't spend, and then you can take action with. And maybe that action is building an emergency fund, maybe that's paying off your debt, maybe it's investing, whatever your financial goal is, that's where you're going to put your action money. But your life is never going to be that you are only going to be spending on your needs and your future and never on wants. And so it's about getting those ratios in balance. And usually we say, financial planners, people like me say 50% on needs, 30% on wants, 20% on future you, which is what you would put your action money towards. And so knowing your fixed expenses will help you also understand those other ratios. And then you can see like how far off you are. Because also if your fixed expenses are too high, you're like on this hedonic treadmill where you're just behind financially even before you start. So like you might need to move. You might need to get a roommate. There's all these solutions to if like your baseline spending every month is just that's what's killing your progress. Well, just moving to something very practical. One thing that we've touched on, and I can't remember, Reamer or Haley, which one of you was talking about how it's so easy now to spend. One thing that's clear is that we're much more likely to stick to a good habit when it's really convenient, and we're much less likely to do something if it's inconvenient. So if there's something that we don't want ourselves to do, we should make it inconvenient, increase the friction, but we should also make good habits as easy as possible. Would you throw out any suggestions for things to try to make easier or things to make harder and how a person might do that? Like unsubscribing to a newsletter that always makes you want to buy something like that's really good, right? Because now it's extremely inconvenient to find that person's content because you're not, it's not just coming into your inbox. Do you have any other suggestions? Because that's a super easy way to intervene with our behavior if we figure out how to rig it up. Yeah, I do think pairing your financial habits with something that you already do, obviously really helps. Like I try to do a weekly reset on Sunday mornings. And so I'm already looking at my calendar, getting oriented for the week. I mean, that's like on a good Sunday. And so that's when a quick money check-in might make sense for me and what I'll tend to do. Just like 10 minutes. And then I think visibility is a big thing. So something as simple, like I keep my banking and budgeting apps on my home screen instead of buried in a folder. That makes a huge difference for me. It reduces that like mental hurdle of like, I'll deal with this later. Isn't that interesting that something's so small? It's so simple, yeah. But I need to see it in order to remember to do it. And then I think the flip side of that, of like making impulse spending slightly less convenient, I've deleted saved credit cards before from certain shopping apps, which really helps. Like what Haley was saying, adding that friction or to like turn off one click purchasing, that is dangerous for me. Because I'm just trying to interrupt any actions that may be in autopilot and be a little bit more intentional. How about you, Haley? Anything to add? I mean, the financial habit that literally made me a millionaire was automation. So I think we need to, even though that's not a habit, you have to do it once and then it's automated. That's the best kind of habit. Set it and forget it. Yes. Talk about the wonders of automation. Oh, my gosh. Well, I mean, I feel like if you're listening to this podcast and you are definitely interested in habits, but you also know that like as humans, we have so many faults and our willpower is so finite. And so like you can wake up one day and have so much energy towards your financial goals and then you try and do it the next week and you would rather like put your head in the oven. So it's about figuring out a solution that is not relying on you to be building wealth and that is literally just automation. So like putting your credit cards on auto pay, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't, you can't look at, You should obviously look at them still, make sure there's no fraud, all of that. But that will prevent you from ever paying late fees, setting up automatic transfers to your savings, setting up automatic investment contributions. So that this way, when your paycheck hits, you are paying yourself first versus taking what's left over at the end of the month and piecing it together. It's just a system that will simplify your life and actually make you make progress. Like for me, I wouldn't like the first way that this really was like, I was like, wow, automation is insane. This is incredible. Was just like with my saving account. Yeah. When I was saving my emergency fund, you know, just by putting that money into my high yield savings account every month automatically. It was like by the end of a year, I had an emergency fund and I was like, damn, that was crazy. I got to be automating more finances. Yes. So it really works. Yeah. Yeah, because then you're not relying on your month-to-month decisions. It's just one-to-one and done. Okay, well, finally, I would love to ask each of you, I always like to ask guests, is there one suggestion that you would give to listeners for a practical thing that the ordinary person could do as part of their ordinary day to make their lives happier, healthier, more productive, or more creative? So I'll start with you, Rima. Do you have a suggestion? Well, I was actually going to say what the beautiful point that Haley just made, which is to automate as much as you can. So just say it again. That's the underline it. Yeah, I think it's huge. I mean, similar to you, I also started automating several years ago. And I was like, oh, I could have been doing this a long time ago and saving this much, you know. And so, yeah, do what you can. It doesn't even have to be a big amount. A small amount makes a difference. And it'll build that momentum to make it easier to make other financial decisions. I think it's definitely worth repeating because it kind of gets into that magic of money. Like, is it real money? Is it leftover money? How much money is it? This way you're just avoiding all of that noise in your head. How about you, Haley? What would you suggest? I would say most Americans have debt. So like most of the people listening to this are going to have some sort of debt that they're probably struggling with or avoiding. And so as a first step, I would say I have a free debt payoff planner that you can just download at mrsdadjones.com. And I would use it to just write out all of your debts and you put in your interest rate and the minimum monthly payment. And it will sort it for you so you know which one to focus on. But I think just like that simple task of writing them all out versus like it taking up all this brain space of like, well, I know that I have this one or that one and you're not really clear on things. Like just that first step is so powerful. And then from there you can, in the free planner, it like tells you how to like what you should focus on most and gives you a game plan. But I would say just like taking control of your debt, knowing how much your APRs are and everything would be like the most positive step ever. Well, these are great because it's both sides. One is automate what's coming in. And the other one is know what needs to go out. Yeah. Well, this is great. Thank you so much, both of you. This has been such a fascinating conversation. I feel like we could talk all day about this. There's so much emotion and values and childhood and parents. So much to dig into. So much. All your favorite words. Yeah, exactly. So thank you to Haley Sachs, a.k.a. Mrs. Dow Jones and Reema Craze. And thanks to our producer, Chuck Reed. Remember, the best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. The second best time is now. The best time to start your savings is 20 years ago. And the second best time is now. Thanks so much. Thank you. From the Onward Project. Hi, Gretchen, Craig Robinson, and my little sister Michelle here. We host a new podcast called IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. We know you're the queen of giving advice, so we wanted to get a few tips from you. You know, Gretchen, a lot of our listeners are going through some major life changes. What advice do you have for folks who are trying to stay grounded in the midst of major life transitions? Craig and Michelle, I am so happy to be talking to you. Here are a few questions that might help us gain perspective. So consider questions like this. What activities take up my time but are not particularly useful or stimulating for me? Do I spend a lot of time on something that's important to someone else, but is not very important to me? If I could magically change one habit in my life, what would I choose? And here's a question. Would I like to have more time in solitude, restorative solitude, or would I like to have more time with friends? You know, just thinking about questions like this can help us start to figure out how we might make our lives happier. With greater self-knowledge, we're better able to make hard decisions that reflect ourselves, our own nature, our own interests, our own values. In my own case, I have found that the more my life reflects my nature, the happier I get, and the more grounded I feel when I'm going through a period of major change or transition. For more great advice, search for I Am O with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson wherever you Get Podcast. You can listen to Issa Rae on letting go of certain friendships. Kiki Palmer on why disappointment is actually the key to career success. Seth and Lauren Rogan on caring for aging parents and so many more.