EP 52: Lets Talk About Korn Addiction... Again (Sathiya Sam)

Disclaimer. At Two Addicts in the Moron, we discuss personal stories of addiction with the intention of being educational, relatable, and inspirational. The views and experiences shared are those of individuals involved are not meant to glorify or condone any illegal or harmful behavior. This content is for educational purposes only and is not intended as professional advice. If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction, we strongly encourage you seek help from a qualified professional or support service. Episode 52 of Two Addicts in the Moron is getting kicked off. I'm bringing the numbers back. I've made up my mind. We're bringing it back. I skipped because we were just getting too carried away. I was missing numbers and I was like, I'm not saying numbers anymore, but we're on 52, which means it is our birthday. Everybody, two addicts in the moron turned one years old today. Yay. So and you know what? We're walking around, but we still shitting our diapers because we don't know what we're doing. We show up here and we do it. So somebody messaged me today and says, Hey, do y'all do this and this? I said, bro, I don't know. We just film and we put we throw money at. Yeah. That's what we do. We film and throw and we hope for the best. When your assistant sent me the little Google calendar. Yeah. I was blown away. I was like, Oh my God, you got to teach me how to do that. Dude, yeah. You got to teach me how to do that. Yeah. No, I'm all about it. I'm all about it. You are the only person that's been on the podcast that is in my calendar because that's it. Everybody else is just we write it down on paper and text each other. Whatever. Hey, as long as you show up to the right place at the right time, that's what matters, but we're both systems. Yeah, that's the way to do it. Well, look, I am super excited about this one because it's so much different than any other podcasts that we've ever done in the history. And it's talking about porn addiction and I can't wait to get it. This one fascinates me on so many different levels. So I can't wait to pepper you with questions on this. We go talk about with that being said, ladies and gentlemen, Sothea is in the building. Hey, hey, hey, hey. Thank you, Jance. Yes. So I always start this. So DOC was porn, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. That's that. I mean, that was my stick. No, no drugs, no alcohol. It was okay. Yeah. Let's go. Look, that's why I'm so fascinated because I touched on it a little bit earlier, but we tried to talk about porn addiction very early. Excuse me in our podcast. Yeah. But I've discovered through talking about that, I thought that their porn addictions were drug induced. Yeah. You know, so it kind of came back to the drug, right? Yeah. It kind of went back there and it got a little clunky and it got a little weird and not a lot of people watch that one. Yeah. So I'm really excited to have you on to talk way more intelligently about this. You wrote a book about it. Yeah, bro. Yeah. What's your book called, man? The book is called The Last Relapse. It's basically my system for how I help guys quit porn. I was a university researcher and so, you know, when we were starting to help people, we saw like, man, this is good stuff. Not everybody can afford to do coaching or whatever. So the book was just trying to make it more accessible. And I actually give away the book for free now. If people want to copy, they can just DM me on Instagram, just DM me book and I'll send you a free copy. Wow. What's your Instagram? Sathya me Sam. Yeah. That's the handles. So people want to check it out. They can get it there, but that's the whole system for recovery. And actually I've had people go through it, the food addictions. I wouldn't say drug addictions, maybe some like dependencies or bad habit kind of thing. And had great results from that as well actually, because it's very principled in its approach. So that's what I was just about to ask. So you kind of, do you feel like you can kind of remove one? I mean, obviously with drugs, there's a physical dependency there. Yeah. First, a lot of them, all of them, right? Alcohol, drugs. Yeah. And then that's a whole another process that has to be gone through. Yeah. But as far as the mentality and breaking habits and stuff, do you find that the actual habit itself is pretty much the same? Like the process for getting out of it? Yeah. It's similar in some ways and it's different in others. So like drugs and alcohol are what they call substance addictions, right? Like it's specifically the chemical. Yeah. Poor addictions in a different category. They call it process addiction. So the same categories like video games, gambling, you can really be addicted to anything like we're all kind of addicted to our phones now. Like that's a process addiction, right? Sure. So it's a lot more behaviorally. It's less like you can't give somebody pharmaceuticals and try to kind of get them off of the drug that they're addicted or the sorry, the pornography they're addicted to. It just doesn't really work the same way. It's a lot more about curbing the behaviors, figuring out where the behaviors are coming from. Which is usually like thinking patterns, belief systems. There's trauma still at play, childhood stuff. So all of those factors are at play. And I think the reason the book could could help someone beyond pornography addiction is because of that. We have like, we have three steps. It's build self awareness, heal your heart, shift your identity. And so you can you kind of get that like that can be applicable to so many different things you're trying to change. Yeah, for sure. Right. Yeah. And those and I found this at a meetings, you know, you read the 12 steps, you know, I've gone to a meetings. And it's like, man, all of that just looks so easy. And then you read through it again. And you're like, dude, that's some work. Yeah, that is some. Yeah, if you have to do it. Yeah, if you're actually doing that work. So those three things that you just said, very simple and principle. Yeah. But yeah, they're work. They're work. Yeah. Like those are some hard work. So I really taken that taking that in right now too. Yeah. Well, and I think with pornography addiction, like socially, like people are very mixed on it. Even actually, researchers are very mixed on like, is it a legitimate addiction and whatever else? So I think because people sometimes trivialize it, then they think like, oh, it can be that hard to quit. Yeah. Could you really be addicted to that? Yeah. But yeah, you can be. And yeah, the work is is for real if you want to get out of it. I think that's what a lot of people think like people that don't have the addiction. Yeah. It's amazing that people have that addiction to them. Right. Right. Like like when I was a drug addict, people that aren't a drug addict, like, well, just quit. Yeah. It's like, how can you be like I used to always I used to always think my addiction was way worse than everybody else's. So alcoholics was somebody that I used to always judge because I'm like, it's not really it's it's it's alcohol. Right. Like I've never been an alcoholic and even still like I don't ever identify as an alcoholic. So to me, it was always like, how can you just not put it down? But then I realized I have the same thinking that people used to think towards me. Well, why can't you just stop smoking meth? Why can't you just stop watching porn? Right. Yeah. And I realized like, oh, I'm you can have an addiction towards really anything like you said. Yes. I mean, you can have an addiction towards vaping. Right. Still an addiction. You can have an addiction towards eating food. Yeah. And we all have some kind of addiction. Just some of our addiction is more socially acceptable. Less damaging. Yeah. I mean, you're just not going to watch porn in a group of people. Just come watch this. Or maybe you. Something like that. That's a thing. That's P. Diddy parties. Yeah. That's a different kind of addiction. That's a different deal all together. That's a sociopath. Well, although to be honest, like, you know, having been in this space for a long time now, people, if you watch enough pornography, especially mainstream pornography today is so aggressive, violent, very intense. Actually, again, Diddy obviously an extreme example. Yeah. But you'd be surprised at how many people end up there because of pornography. Yeah. Because what they see on the screen is no longer doing it. So they start to seek out, you know, you start to push that line, right? Fantasies. Yeah. Right. Fantasies. But then you can start to live out your fantasies, especially in today's world. Especially when you have the resources to do it. Yeah. 100%. We, when we did our, when we did our episode about porn addiction, it obviously YouTube didn't let us put any ads on it. Yeah, right. So, but right after that, what's the guy from the nuggets? Michael Porter. He's a, he played for the Nugget. I don't think he's still playing. Michael Porter Jr. Yeah. He did a podcast right after ours and he was talking about what he has seen just in his time as far as being a celebrity and being in the NBA. And he said, you know what's crazy is people that have like, when I was growing up, you watched HBO and Showtime and you seen like, maybe a girl's titties, right? Yeah. You didn't see, you never seen any Bush or anything like that. No, no. And then maybe as it got, as you got through it, then maybe one of, maybe on Cinemax, you got to see a full frontal, right? But then when porn started coming out, well, then it was, you got to see more, right? And then you got to start seeing a guy with two girls, a guy with three girls. You said, and then all of a sudden you started seeing girls with girls, right? And then all of a sudden, though, the one-on-one sex to you, in my opinion, when I was watching porn, it wasn't fun for me anymore because it was like, well, I can watch three girls at once or I can watch a whole war. Oh, there's a spin-illa, right? Whatever, all of it. Yeah. But he was talking about when people that have a lot of money and a lot of resources, that one-on-one isn't fun for them anymore and maybe drugs are involved. They probably are, let's be honest. Yeah, for sure. But he said, you know, they have the resources to pay and say, look, do this for me, do this for me, do this for me. And then you start going opposite sex, our same sex, and then you start doing like tranny porn and stuff like that, right? And then all these, you start raising the bar and raising the bar. And I'm not talking bad about anything, but you start raising the bar, raising the bar, raising the bar, and then just regular sex just isn't fun to you anymore. And that's when people start having dysfunction. What is it? Rectile dysfunction. Rectile dysfunction because it's just not fun for me anymore. I want to see the shit that I've been watching. Yeah, that's right. There have been a lot of interesting points there, but we have so many clients that are heterosexual men, they're married, they're kids, and they watch gay porn. Right. Yeah. And it's exactly that. It's just all the stuff that they grew up watching doesn't cut it. And so, you know, you cross the line here, you cross the line there, you try this, your brain keeps seeking novelty, right? Right. And that novelty enhances the pleasure for the moment. Eventually it fades. There's a really, this story's been told quite a bit. Do you guys know who Ted Bundy is? Yeah. Okay. He was right before he got executed. He had like a thousand media requests. He only took one of them. It was with a guy named Dr. James Dobson. And Dobson asked him, just point blank, what do you attribute the most, the biggest contributing factor to your life ending up the way it wound up? And he didn't even bat an eyelash. He said pornography. Really? Hands down. And he said, everybody in my prison, like his maximum security prison, he said, they'll all tell you the same thing. Pornography is where it all started. And then it just, I mean, he was, it was before internet with him, but like pornography didn't cut it. You start seeking out the thrill other ways. And eventually like he got his thrill from doing completely morbid things. Right. Very extreme example, but that's what happens to all of our brains actually, you know, and especially when you're getting addicted to something, it's like, you will continually push that bound as much as you can. Push that in below. Yep. Yep. As much as you can. So tell us a little bit about yourself, you know, how, how do you feel like your addiction started? Man, it's a great question. You guys, you guys will appreciate this. I grew up, so I grew up very conservative, um, churched. My dad was a pastor, that kind of deal. Um, you know, everybody's got that story of where you got exposed to pornography first, right? Yeah. First time, right? Usually it's like an uncle, it's a sibling. Uh, dude, I got exposed to pornography in the computer lab of my Christian school. Whoa. I was 11 years old. Yeah. Guy came up to me and said, yo, check out this site. Very innocent sounding. And, um, that was how it all started for me. And it wasn't like, oh, I saw it and I knew I was going to be addicted. Um, I was actually pre puberty. You know, I was like 10 and a half, 11 years old. It just planted a little seed. And then, you know, when I got, when I did hit puberty, I remembered the site. So I started going back to it. Yeah. Um, you know, this is in the days of like the one family computer. Yeah. So I would wait till my parents were away or they're at sleep and then I would, you know, go and watch. Like I had to kind of plan around it. But yeah, high school, I watched a lot of it in university. So I was very academic, really brainy, skipped a grade, went straight to university when I was 16, that kind of deal. So porn was like kind of my, my vice. Like again, it sounds silly if you don't understand it, but the same way that people would use alcohol to cope or drugs, porn was my thing. And I would plan my days around it, you know, think about what I was going to watch and how it all kind of scheduled out. Like that was just, it was, it just became a part of my life. It helped me function with the academic pressures and the cares of life and everything that came with it. Wow. I mean. And at what point from that first time to being in college, did you realize that like, I've got a problem here. Like, yeah. Well, like any good addict, I told myself I could quit whenever I want. Yeah, of course. And I really believed it. And then that time came. So I, there were two things that I was pretty sure would force me to quit. Meeting a girl and, and or career. Like if I, if I started to, you know, develop professionally, probably not a good thing to have around. Right. So that time came. I finished university. I was ready to start working. I had kind of like drifted in and out of faith, even though I grew up in the church, but I was trying to take that more seriously. And so I just felt like, okay, this is, it's time to quit. You know, enough things came together. And I went like three days. That's when I was like, huh, that's interesting. Cause I've had other like challenges in my life or bad habits where I, you know, I just had enough willpower to fight it. Right. So I was, I was positive. I had enough willpower for this as well. Right. And that was the first thing that kind of caught my attention. Then I tried again and it was like, I could go a few more days, maybe a week, but like, I just got caught in these cycles. And that's when I realized like, okay, this has way deeper hooks than I realized. Man, just listening to you. And then so many of the other people that we have on, it's, I mean, it's a similar story. It's a very similar tale. I mean, when they figure out that the hooks are, are in, it's like, man, I'm just going to keep doing this. Yeah. Was it scary for you when you realized? No, no, I didn't realize the severity of it. You know, like, like it is a little bit scary to realize, okay, I don't have as much control over this as I think I do. But I didn't, I was still naive to like the, the downstream effects, like the erectile dysfunction you were talking about. You know, we have like, I mean, you know, I worked with a client recently who's on his fourth marriage, I think, and he lost the other three because of his porn addiction. So I didn't realize the road I was on. Like I was kind of oblivious in that sense. So I was kind of too dumb to be afraid. Well, it probably wasn't something that was really talked about yet. Right? No, no. In fact, even when I started my practice back in 2018, people were like, dude, good luck. Like, yeah, yeah. What, is that a thing? You know, yeah. Um, but the last couple of years, like, I don't know if you guys know who Jordan Peterson is, Dr. Kuberman, right? Those guys are like talking about it quite a bit. So I think the world is starting to wake up a bit like, okay, this is, this is more serious than we thought. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I went through that journey, you know, 2010, I think 2011, somewhere around there's when it kind of started for me. But it takes somebody like yourself or like us doing this, you know, to get out in front of something and like, Hey man, let's talk about this. Yeah. And let's talk about it as a serious issue. Yeah. Because it can be. Yeah. You know, I don't get on podcasts and I, I mean, I've been on national TV, promoting my book and stuff. I don't really do that because I want to be the guy for porn. Like one of my friends still tells me, because I used to work in churches, right? So one of my guys still like, he still tells all of these, like, have you heard about Sathya? Like he left the church for porn, you know, like, yeah, like people can, you can spend things quickly. But the point is I just know how valuable it is. Cause when I was struggling, I was looking for somebody who was talking about this stuff, who could give me practicals, who had the story of figuring it out and working through it. So I'm just trying to be that guy that I wish was there for me when I was struggling. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, it's great. And I'm starting to think about like when I was a kid, the internet, I'm 44. Yeah. So the internet wasn't a thing. True. So like fighting to find porn. Yeah. It was a thing. I mean, you had to like go to your friend's house. Yeah. Yeah. Did your dad's like, they're at work and the VCR tapes. Yeah. Which was all, I mean, I'm thinking about it. I, I didn't have the same opportunity to be as neurotic about it. No, you couldn't. As, as somebody you could get. Yeah. Now, um, Bill Burr, he's a comedian. Yeah. Yeah. And he has a great, I mean, it reminds, it's funny, but it's also poignant. He was like, you know, now you can just Amazon a blow up doll to your front porch. Legit. Yeah. That's actually true. And you can just yell at it. And you're like, I'm going to fuck that thing. That thing doesn't even know you're in your room. He's like, whereas when you were a kid, you had to walk into the unmarked building that was like, and you're like, waiting for everybody. You have to go behind the counter where the fucking blow up dolls already be like, ah, you know, let me. Yeah. You know, like looking around. Yeah. I mean, there was a certain amount of like shame, shame that was involved with having to get your porn. I would say you had to actually overcome some of the shame to get your porn. Yeah. Which you don't know. Yeah. We're still a shameful experience. It's just you can do it in the comforts of your bedroom. That's what I know about it. Yeah. Back then you literally had to walk in and say, uh, when they can I help you? Not you specifically. Hey, where's your foot section, dog? Yeah. The VCRs and the DVDs. Yeah. And I remember one of my buddies, but like when I was in my addiction, I could watch porn for nine hours. Right. Wow. I mean, I was on math. I could just like while you're yeah, while you're high or whatever. And just I would just had rub, rug burn. My dick would just be beat to shit. Right. And, uh, and you couldn't, I couldn't touch it the next day. And like if I peed and little pee got on the wrong side, it was like it burned and stuff like that's how bad it was. But one of my buddies, he was like, you know, he never did drugs and he was like, I don't know why they make these porn videos for two hours. Like what do you do for the other hour and 58 minutes? I said, you just stop it there and you just keep going. This thing will last me 60 sessions. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's, it's crazy. The, the crazy thing now, right? Cause, and then there was actually the stage of, um, like Kaza lime wired. You guys ever do that? Like the torrent download. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would, yeah. I mean, everyone had their own platform, but the crazy thing now is, um, so they say porn is the three A's. It's affordable cause it's free, accessible cause of smartphones and anonymous. Right. No, like nobody has to know. And those three things are at a different degree than like even drugs or alcohol, cause they, again, they'll have the three A's, but to varying degrees. But now, cause what you just described is I describe it as a barrier to entry. Yeah. There's a barrier to entry and that barrier to entry, I think actually prevented a lot of addictions because it was so much work. It's not to say, sorry, it's prevented a lot of porn addictions. I think people probably found their vices other ways. Yeah. But now the barrier to entry is so low that me as an 11 year old kid getting exposed on my smartphone, it's a totally different experience. Cause I can just keep searching and I can get whatever I want. Yeah. And if I don't like what I see here, now I have AR, I have VR, I have AI, um, you know, we, uh, I was just working with a client. You laugh, but dude, I was just working with the client. His, his marriage is on the rocks. You know, they're, they're early fifties. Kids are just moving out of the house. Marriage is hanging on by a thread because during COVID, he had three emotional fairs online and he found out that every single one of them was with a bot. Wow. Whoa. That's the world we live in. So the reason I started laughing is because you said a VR, right? Yeah. So here you want a quick, funny story when I was on meth? Sure. So I went to my buddy's house that I used to do meth with and we had to be at work and I pull up in his house, knock on the door, nobody answers. So he, he always left the back door unlocked. So I'll go around the back door. Well, I'm going to walk in, but I see his wife's purse is on the table. So I didn't just want to walk in because she's there. Okay. So I call her and I say, Hey, I said, are you at the house? And she's like, no, I said, well, is, I won't say his name. Yeah, I will. His name is Keaton. So I'm like, uh, he's Keaton here. And, um, and she said, yeah, he's there. I said, Oh, cause he's not answering the phone. He's not answering the door. So I hang up and I want the back doors locked. It's never locked. So I walked to his, I walked to his bedroom window and I look in and he's butt ass naked on the bed with VR goggles on, just beating off. So I start pounding on the window and he pops up and he's looking around, but he can't see nothing cause he's got these VR goggles on. And I was just, I was, I should have took a picture, but I didn't. I just, I interrupted him and he come out. He had Vaseline all over. Hey, I'm sorry. I didn't know what time it was. And we got to go. How long ago was this? If you had VR, this was probably five years ago, four years ago. Yeah. Yeah. No way. I mean, this was like, this was like in the very beginning of VR, which was real weird. I don't know how it is now, but it's like, I watched it one time, but that wasn't my thing. Okay. Cause it was like you're in a porn, but you're not getting any satisfaction from it. Right? It's like you're watching people, but it just didn't do nothing for me. No, I, I guess for some other people, but you know, it's interesting. I did a deep dive on this, uh, a couple of years ago, just like the history of the industry and how it got online. Dude, the porn industry, they were the first people to collect money online. This is back in like the eighties. The first people to accept credit card payments. You know, the freemium model that most tech companies follow, like you get it for free and then you can pay to get like a little more. They were the first people to do that. Really? Like it's, it's wild. And so, so now that we're talking about it, I'm like, oh, I'm surprised to hear that that was with VR a couple of years ago, but actually that's probably how VR came about that. It was probably the adult industry that drove that. So that actually does make sense. That's wild, man. Yeah. So, I mean, you're working with people in this now. You know, let me, let me rewind the clock. So how, how did you get recovered? How, what was your road to recovery? Like in this, how did that happen? Yeah. Okay. So in, in the porn addiction world, the, the standard solutions are cold turkey, internet filters, uh, getting an accountability partner. And then, you know, if there's a faith based element, it would be like pre more, that's what I was going to say, the Bible, that kind of stuff. And then obviously like willpower and white knuckling, which, you know, for a brown guy, it's not easy. I did my best, but it only got me so far. Right. And so I had about three years of recovery where it's like, I'm putting in the efforts, but I'm not really getting the results. Like I'm still binging every, I don't know, week, every couple of weeks. Maybe I can go longer, but it always ends one way or the other with a really bad binge. So, um, I, a bunch of things all came together, but I basically started doing more deep work. I call it a heart level, a psychological level. So instead of just trying to like manipulate the behavior, trying to figure out why am I engaging the behavior in the first place. The root of it, the root of it. Exactly. Yeah. Which is literally, I mean, that's the subtitle of my, of my book. It's like, get to the roots of porn addiction. So, um, that's when my life really starts to change. And when it starts to change, I was like, how is nobody talking about this? You know, um, in, in the, in the church environment, cause I, at this point, now church is a much bigger part of my life. And so, you know, if you're, if you just go to the bar, you talk to somebody in public, you're going to get mixed opinions about pornography. Some people are going to love it. Some people don't care about it. And some people, their life has maybe been negatively affected by it. But in the church, there's like a, there's a moral ethic, right? And so there's an understanding that this is not the kind of stuff that you would engage with as a person who's going to church. Right. So I was like, how is, even in the church, how are we not talking about this stuff? Like gain more to the root of the issue. So I just vowed in my heart, like if this actually does get me free, then I will do everything in my power to help as many other guys experience this freedom as well. Sure. Yeah. So I had my last relapse February 2016. And I waited, I waited a couple of years because I didn't want to rush into it. I had been there before where I'd gone like eight months or 12 months. And then I like fell back. So I just waited long enough. And then I had a bunch of other life circumstances. Like I got engaged. My fiance was bed ridden. She got really sick during our engagement. And I had to kind of just like start to get a bit more entrepreneurial. That's how my business actually all came about. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. That's, that's absolutely incredible. Oh, thanks man. And so how, how is the recovery process though? Like I'm trying to wrap my, I think I'm trying to compare drug addiction with this a little bit or at least try and draw the parallel, but there's, it's really so different and it's kind of fascinating to me. So like the, the white knuckling process of this and the, the trying to get your way through this and the relapse. I mean, is the shame what ultimately brings you back? Do you, this shame, I think the shame actually stops you from ever getting away in the first place. Yeah. Like you can, you know, you could, you can go a couple of months without meth or whatever it is. But if you fall back into it, that to go to run with the root example, like that's kind of indicators that the roots are still there to some effect. And shame kind of preserves the roots. So it's actually like everything we do is very communally oriented because we have to de-shame as quickly as possible because if people go through our system while still operating in shame, they're just not going to get the results they want. Right. And you know, we had a client while we've had lots of clients, but one in particular comes to mind, he, he was late sixties. I think he was right around 70. He had been cheating on his wife, basically his entire marriage. He would, he would have an affair at every opportunity that came his way. Got caught pornography was a huge part of it. He had been sober for two years, but he came to us because he was miserable. And he's like, you talk about like a different kind of recovery where you actually like your life and you like people. And he's like, that's not me. He's like, I'm just hanging on for dear life, trying to keep my wife around. I actually hate my life. I almost wish I was addicted again. Like life was actually more pleasurable than, and that's a great example of somebody who's still operating in shame. Right. Like they've kind of figured out the behavioral part, you know, like it's kind of like running over a weed with the lawnmower. Like, yeah, you can keep things clean, but it's still a weed at the end of the day. And the root system is still there. So I think the, the, the whole premise of pornography addiction really is that roots part. And so that's where it comes to those three steps. Like it's building self-awareness. A lot of guys, um, and the shame part is, is part of this, but a lot of guys don't understand why they watch. It's like, I'm a dude. I got horny and I watched and it's like, okay, fair. Yeah. That's, I'm sure that's accurate, but I guarantee you there's more going on underneath the surface. So building that self-awareness is a huge part of it, just understanding, but that's actually, that's only one side of the coin. The other side is if I know, okay, I got a busy work week coming up. This project is stressing me out. If I have self-awareness, I can plan for it so that I don't get to that mental place where I'm flying off the handle and I just need something to reward or release that awareness allows you to be like a little bit more proactive and kind of preemptive, right? So again, that that's, that's the gateway to all recovery. I think is self-awareness and building that understanding of why, what's actually driving it? What are the uncomfortable feelings? What are the belief systems, the thought patterns? What are the things that actually are leading you to watch porn in the first place? And staying there has a lot to do with community. Yes. Like, I mean, there's, there needs to be community and people that understand and have gone through and you, and the accountability as I call it, or a, or a, a bunch of them. And you just said something a little while ago, you know, that I wish church or faith would open up and talk about this a lot more. I think that about drugs and alcoholism as well. Same deal. But in, in those arenas, they're, those are so taboo, right? Those are sins or, you know, you're just, I can't talk about that. Yeah. I can't open up. I had a buddy one time, he, they were in a small group and they were going around just sharing like prayer requests, but they, but they both, or sorry, they all agreed there was like eight of them. They all agreed they were going to share more than just like the standard prayer requests, you know, like, pray for a promotion at work or whatever. So everyone's like getting pretty real. So, um, so he shares, he's like, man, he's like, I haven't actually told a lot of people this, but, um, I really struggle with, with smoking. Like if I get really stressed at work, he's a business owner. Um, you know, I, I smoke like a couple of times and dude, the judgment, like he's like, they all looked at him like that's your, like, I know we were getting vulnerable dude, but like smoking, like what's, what's your, you know, didn't get it. He was, so he was like ready to leave the church. You're so upset. I mean, he did it. Like he, he was grounded enough, but yeah, like what you're saying, dude, that's, it's real. Yeah. The church that I go to is the first church that I've ever been to where they'll actually bring it up in prayer. Wow. Whenever they talk about it. That's cool. Um, I go to city reach. If you're in Austin, that's, that's a phenomenal church. It is a great time. And I have heard many times where they talk about rape molestation, wow, like a drug addiction and they bring it to the, to the forefront. Oh, that's amazing. And I remember the first time I ever heard it. I was like, Oh my God, I've never heard this in church before. Like I've never heard a preacher actually talk about this. Yeah. And I thought it was, it was so great because as a recovering drug addict, I think that it should be brought to the forefront. I think you would be surprised. Of the people that watch porn out there of how many that actually do it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And how many do it on a daily basis? Oh yeah. Especially the stats don't lie. Yeah. You know, the people are watching porn every day. Some of those guys are Christians. Yeah. I'm sure, I'm sure there's a lot of them that we know that, that haven't came out and said, Hey, I have a porn addiction. Yeah. I've got a buddy that's in recovery that he struggles with it from time to time. And, um, he goes through it with his wife and, you know, he does it. And then he tells her and she's like, well, Hey, you know, it's just pray about it. Right. Yeah. And that's how he kind of overcomes it most of the time is he said that he asked God to remove it from it. That openness is good. Yeah. He said, I just tell him, man, just take this away from me right now. Yeah. You know what's interesting? Uh, I've never really thought about this before, but I think, um, I think most pastors wouldn't talk about drugs and alcohol addiction because. They don't understand it. They've never had their experience with it. Right. But the, the data would suggest that most pastors aren't talking about pornography because they're struggling themselves. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, every survey I've seen, it comes back 50% plus of pastors that are, have watched porn in the last month or, you know, there's always some timeframe. Let's check your history and see if it's clear. Yeah. Exactly. You're watching porn. Exactly. And you, dude, you'd be surprised. You'd be really surprised. So for pastors, a lot of pastors, and I have friends who are pastors still, because you know, I pastored for a while and, um, a lot of them are like, man, I just can't like, I, I'm figuring this out and, um, I can't be the hypocrite who's saying, don't watch porn from the pulpit when I'm, you know, I'm struggling. So it's a different tension they go through, but, um, yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm determined to see that stigma breakdown. Yeah. I went through it in whenever, uh, in a relationship before, before I was ever a drug addict and it was, I don't know why it was. I've never really looked at the root. Um, but it was like, I remember times where I wanted to have sex and she was like, no, I'm too tired. I'm too tired. I'm like, well, I'm just going to watch porn and go fall asleep and I'm going to go in the other room and, you know, do what I got to do. And, uh, I remember like at the end of it, I would feel so guilty. Right. I would feel like, ah, man, that's, and then when she found out, because she always found out like it didn't matter what I cleared on my history. Yeah. My brow, it didn't matter. And sometimes they know, you don't find out women are so into it. Yeah. And she would, she looked at it as if I was cheating on her. Yeah. You know, like what you're cheating on me. Right. And it's funny because I talked to one of my home girls today and, uh, I was telling her that we have someone coming on the podcast that wrote a book about this and she said, that is my number one relationship killer. Is if I find out that my boyfriend is watching porn, there's no ifs ands, what's about to be gone. Wow. And she said it's because she has trauma from it. Yeah. From where she's went through relationship. I'm in love. Boom. He's watching porn. I'm in love. Boom. Yeah. And she said that it's just a relationship killer. Yeah. Do you know, there's a whole emerging field in psychology called betrayal trauma. And most of the, I mean, there's different ways you can be betrayed, but a lot of it's being driven by spouses or partners of porn addicts because that, that's literally what the experience is like for them. Like they feel betrayed to the point that it's traumatic. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so let me ask you this. Here's a great question. Do you deal with a lot mainly men or do you also have women that are porn addicts? Because yeah, like if my fiance was watching porn, especially like lesbian porn, I'd be like, cool, right? Sure. Now, if she was watching other types of porn where maybe a guy has a bigger dick than me, I'd be like, what the fuck, right? I want you to watch it. Yeah. She's totally different, right? So you. Tramp. Yeah. How dare you. That is the line. Yeah. How did you find that? So do you, do you, do you work with women too? I don't. My, my practice is exclusively with male. That's not because women aren't out there struggling. So all like porn hub stats suggest, uh, I think it's 36% of all their viewers are female. Really? So the ratio is about two to one of guys, the girls watching porn these days. Now, how many, I wonder if it's more, I wonder if it's more common for guys to come out and say, Hey, I have a problem with this rather than women saying I have a problem with you. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Like, I mean, porn addiction for a guy is already stigmatized so much. So for women, it's so much more difficult because it's kind of like a man's issue. We can at least understand that, but for girls, there's not a lot of places they can run to. And we, you know, we have like over a hundred K people that follow me on Instagram. And you know, I think 25, 30% of them are women reaching out, asking for resources. Like we try to help as much as we can, but there's other people that serve women. But yeah, my practice is with men, professional men, that seems to be where we're the most effective. Yeah. Yep. A lot of like doctors and CEO's. Yep. All that kind of stuff. People that have resources. Yeah. People that have resources, people that have a lot of pressure, a lot of expectations. Yeah. And pornography is kind of like an easier way to cope and get over release. Well, yeah, get a release. Yeah, exactly. Get over release. Yeah. And you, it's, it's something that like now I'm thinking about it, there's no like physical repercussion to it. You don't show up hungover. No, you don't show up. That's right. You know, if you release and you go to sleep, right? Like, okay, now it's just, I'm good. Like, man. And that, that's part of the danger of it, right? Yeah. Cause like the hangover at least is kind of like negative feedback. Like that was kind of a dumb thing to do. Yeah. But yeah, the, the, the binge, the porn binge, like you're not feeling it physically the next day. Now we talked about the beginning. We talked about erectile dysfunction. So once you start having the sexual performance issues, that's when it's like, okay, obviously there's some, some major issues. Yeah, there's a deal. And that's not a small contingent. The last stat I saw was a 2020 or 2021, but 30% of men under the age of 40 report experiencing erectile dysfunction. So that have porn addictions? No, just men in general. So in 2001, to give you an idea with the same age group, men under the age of 40, it was 5%. So it's, it's six X in the last 20 years. And again, not all because of pornography. There's stress. There's hormone, like there's all kinds of stuff, but let's not kid ourselves. Like we're all watching a lot more porn and it is creating this unnatural barrier of like, I need so much stimulation to get aroused that an in-person experience just doesn't add up. Yeah. Yeah. This is fascinating. This is, it really is. It's like, I'm glad you're learning this. And I, you know, I'm the moron of the group, right? Like I don't understand addiction at all. Yeah. Which side of, I actually thought I was the moron coming in. I thought it was two addicts that are in energy to me and I'm the moron. I was like, let's go. No, man. No, you're, you're definitely, we're going to call this something else, but we couldn't morally use that word. So we went with more. Oh yeah. We're flagged in the algorithm. Yeah. That was, you know, they frown on that word. Trust me, I get canceled by the algorithm all the time. Oh, no, I bet. I bet you're just trying to bob and weave your way through it. Find that little narrow space to get it there. Yeah, just work it. Yeah. Yeah. Dude, but, but what you're doing is so important. Yeah. I mean, it really is. It's a very, very important. And you're, you've, you're, you're creating a community of people who can get around each other and be like, I'm not alone. Yeah. You know, that's what we said about doing this podcast. We want people to not feel alone. Like, right? Yeah. Even if you don't like or subscribe and you came across it, you watch it. You're not alone. Yeah. Yeah. And so I, I applaud you for what you're doing here and getting out and talking about this really taboo subject. I mean, cause I, so many people are struggling with this. Like maybe even more than drugs, it's just easier to hide. Yeah. It's way easier to hide the drugs. I want lies. I still watch porn from time to time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm going to sit here and lie. Yeah. And it's 100%. I said it on this podcast before when I went to rehab, I had a drug addiction, a gambling addiction and a porn addiction. And I got rid of two of them. I don't have it. We have, we have client, like we have clients who have had the same story as you. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, man, I, I was addicted to cocaine. I got clean. I was addicted to alcohol, but pornography is just like, it's a different animal. Well, I think, especially if you're a drug addict, like if, when you get rid of, I'm not a drug addict anymore, but I'm, I still watch porn. Well, that's way better than being a drug addict. Right. Yes. I mean, if you were going to get rid of one of them, which one would you rather get rid of? I gotta have something. I gotta have something. Right. And you're going to, I mean, from my, all my addiction, I'm always going to justify, at least I'm not still smoking meth and watching porn for nine hours. Yeah. Yeah. And downloading 400 videos and then erasing them because I feel guilty in case my daughter gets my phone the next day. Yeah. I got, I don't even know why I would download all the videos. So I just, I watched the previews, download and go to the next one. Download, go to the next one. Yes. Yeah. Um, but I think that, that. So let me ask you this. Well, can I pause you for a sec? Yes. Okay. What you just said is actually the, um, like from a neuroscience standpoint, that's the basis of all addiction is you're not addicted to the substance. You're not even addicted to the hit. You're actually addicted to the next thing. The next thing is what keeps you going again and again and again. That's why I said we're all addicted to our phones. Yeah. Cause we all, we all go like this, right? We're looking for the next thing, the next post, the next notification, whatever it is. So anyways, I just, that was a really interesting thing you mentioned. Yeah. Because I would never go back to the video I downloaded or the preview. I'll just go to the next one. Yeah. That's what makes it exciting. Maybe the next one's going to be better. Yeah. Maybe the next one's going to be, and it's just, it's same whenever I was getting high. Yeah. Maybe then the next hit's going to be the one. 100% exactly. Yeah. So do you have a lot of what, maybe you can say this, maybe you don't. Do you realize, do you see a lot of people that have been married for a little while? That all of a sudden get maybe more of a porn addiction or they ramp it up because. You know, as you are in a relationship longer, a lot of the times the sex falls out or it comes down, it's not like you're fucking every day like you were when y'all were dating. Right? Yeah. And do you see a lot of people start turning to more porn because of that? Really good question. Yes. Short answer is yes. Um, it is because they're having less sex, but there's another layer to it, which is that, um, the longer you go into a marriage or just a long-term relationship, the more that the woman needs emotional connection to want to engage with you sexually. And when somebody watches pornography, they, there's actually data behind this. They actually lose their capacity for emotional connection. So like a lot of our guys, when they come in, they're kind of like emotional zombies a little bit. Right. Well, it's an easy disconnect. It's an easy disconnect. And they, but they've disconnected so hard now that they, they have no empathy. They don't know how to relate. They, they keep everybody at an arm's length. So that starts to affect the marriage. And then the wife doesn't want to engage sexually. This is assuming that there aren't any like physical issues that we're talking about before, right? So that's one part of it. And we definitely see a lot of that, but I would say what's actually more common is the guy gets his careers established. He's married. He starts having some kids and some, between all of those things, there's a big life change and he can't cope with the stress. And that's when porn just becomes the easy outlet. And that's when like the habits start to get worse and they decline. And then, you know, it starts to affect the marriage or it starts to affect the kids or it starts to affect productivity at work. Tons of guys, tons of guys losing their jobs because they're watching porn at work. Where's daddy's in the bathroom again? I'll be on a minute. Yeah, dude, probably not too far off. Yeah. Yeah. It, um, so I would say it's those two things. It's either life changes or yeah, sometimes, sometimes the lack of sex, but usually it's, it's not just the lack of sex. It's actually the lack of connection. The next thing. Right. It's leveling up. Yeah. Leveling up to the next thing. Yeah. God, it makes so much sense. It makes so much sense. It makes it simple. Right. Yeah. But it's like in your, in my mind, I'm like, oh, I just, I just watched porn. I never thought about what's kind of like what you said, like when you're a drug addict, the reason you go through steps is so you can, you can peel back layers, right? And figure out, okay, why? Yeah. Where, where's the, where's the root of the problem? Yeah. Yeah. Rather than I just like to get high. Yeah. Okay. Well, why do you like to get high? Why do you feel like you need to put something in your body to feel better? Right. And then when you start going through these steps and you start realizing why I got childhood trauma are, you know, I have relationship problems are, I'm codependent or this or that, you start realizing all these character defects and all this and it starts opening up your eyes to, oh, that's, I didn't realize that when someone touched me when I was four years old, that that still was affecting me today. Yeah. Right. Yeah. We think we suppressed it. Yeah. I just, I've just pushed it away. If I move past it, well, no, that still follows back in our, our this and that. So that makes, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. It's a unique quality. Actually a pornography addiction though, cause, um, the kind of, the kind of content you watch can actually tell you a lot about what you're trying to get out of the experience. For sure. Right. Like if, if we boil this down, like a lot of people watch pornography to meet unmet needs, right? And the kind of needs that you're trying to get met are often revealed in what you fantasize about and the kind of content you watch. So I'll give you a very classic example. This was in a workshop I was doing with some clients last week. Um, and we were calling it, uh, the workshop was called dissecting your fantasies. So I had the guys I said, okay, just think about some fantasies you've had recently, well, don't think about them, but you know, bring to mind your fantasies that you've had recently. And, um, and we kind of started, started talking about some details of it. So without getting into the details of the fantasy, I asked, can you identify any patterns when you have fantasized? And the one client was stuck. And so we were, we were talking it through a little bit and I said, okay, well what, when was the last, like the last time that you caught yourself, like kind of having these sort of like sexual fantasies. He's like, okay, I was in a work meeting and there's a guy in the meeting. He always kind of belittles me, you know, he just, he, he doesn't respect me and my boss was in the meeting and my boss is great. And he even will stand up for me sometimes. Um, but this time he didn't like, he didn't kind of have my back. He's like, so I was just feeling so small about myself. So I said, okay, all right, that makes sense. And, um, you know, what was your fantasy? So he starts to explain it and he, he basically, as he's talking about, he's like, you know, the fantasy for me was actually all about control. I just wanted to feel in control and that fantasy gave me that sense of control. So it's a great example where it's like, Oh, well, that makes sense because here you were in this work environment where you felt totally powerless. You know, this guy's bullying you, your boy's not backing you up. Your boss is not there for you. You feel powerless. So naturally you're now creating a fantasy to try to meet this unmet need. And, um, I told him, so the next time that you feel the temptation to fantasize, especially if it's that kind of fantasy, you know, what you're actually after, what you're actually after is wanting to feel in control, wanting to feel powerful. And your job now is to figure out how to do that in a work environment or in whatever environment you're in. So pornography is really interesting that way where you can actually get into some of the specifics around it. Um, where suppression is almost the worst thing you could do. And in the church, you get a lot of this advice, like just ignore it, you know, move on stuff, it suppress it. And our approach is completely the opposite. It's like, actually we can learn from that. We can actually find a solution in there. If we get the right details and right information. Solution. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Cause I think suppressing was that, that can't do be any good. No, no, that's, that's sweeping a pile of dirt in your kitchen and not picking it up. Yeah. That's right. Right. So we're talking about your sexuality here. We're talking about sex drive, like sweeping a bomb under your rug and hoping it doesn't go off. Yeah. Good luck with that. Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about the other side of these men. Do you talk to their spouses and their wives? Yeah. Do you? Okay. Yep. So I'm from the belief that women who are in love with someone, they'll meet your fantasy for you, you know, you just can't be ashamed to tell them what that is. Yeah. You know, because again, with the woman, it's so much more emotional, right? They just want to please and make you happy. And yeah, most of the time, most of the time. Sure. So, so I found that women are a lot more open-minded than you, than their spouse would give them credit for if they just, do you find that to be the case? Yeah. When you're talking to some of the spouses of these men. Yeah. Well, this goes back to the shame conversation, right? Because when you deal with shame, shame, the, the ultimate message of shame is hide. Yeah. Hide yourself, right? And what we were just talking about a minute ago, if you really embrace what you want, the desires, that, that's actually how you get out of the shame. Right. You have to acknowledge like, yeah, I, I do want that. Yeah. That does turn me on. Yeah. And that's a powerful man right there who can say, this is actually what I want. This is, this is what I'm about. This does something for me. Um, but most guys aren't willing to go there. And so the sex life really, really struggles. So what we hear from wives, um, maybe it's not that specific is just, it's hard to talk about sex. Like it's hard to even just have conversations around. Yeah. Very shut off. Well, I think maybe even if they, cause I know some, I know some, some women that would do pretty much whatever, right? And I know some women that, yeah, if my, if my husband wants to bring another woman in, I'm open to it. Right. Interesting. Yeah. Or if I know in, because it's just sex, right? It's not, there's no related, there's no love there. There's no nothing. Yeah. I also know a couple of people that if their husband wanted to bring a guy in, or a tranny in that they would be open to it. Right. But I think that a guy actually going to his wife and saying, Hey, I'm, this is what I'm about. That's got to be like the most terrifying thing that you possibly ever could. Well, cause you risk rejection, right? All right. That's actually what makes porn so enticing. Yeah. No, no rejection. Yeah. No risk. You're going to get whatever you want. Yeah. That's right. No one's saying no to me. Yeah. And with only fans now, I just have to pay a little bit and I can get whatever I want. Like, yeah. Yeah. So no, you're, you're, you're absolutely right. Like I, I think it is that risk of rejection that stops us from wanting to talk about sex. I was like that the first little bit of marriage and I, I've been very surprised at how willing my wife is to just have conversations about it. Yeah. And she doesn't tense up and she doesn't get awkward about it. And I don't, I, I mean, my parents were kind of like that. So I think I just kind of brought that into my marriage and I assume we were not going to talk about it either. Yeah. Um, but it's really liberating to have those conversations. Like I, I can't recommend it. It's probably, probably makes you feel free. A hundred percent. I'm free now. Like now I don't have to hide it. Exactly. Now you know what my fantasies are. Yeah. Now you know the reason that I resort to that because maybe I feel like I can't do that with you. Yeah. So I've got to go do it somewhere else because that's really what turns me on. Yeah. And then if your spouse is like, well, I'm open to that. Right. Yep. 100%. I, so I think the, the, we're talking about like the green side of it. The difficult side of it is if your wife doesn't write the fantasy, um, or if what you're asking for is like relative, like it's not even crazy. It's like barely anything. And she says no to it because she has trauma around it or something, you know, something to that effect. So I think that's where this conversation gets a lot more difficult. Or maybe a lot of judgment too. Yeah. Like if you come out like, oh my God, you're into that. What the hell? You know what I mean? That, that can be devastating. That could be devastating. And that could literally, you might lose your marriage over what you're trying to say, like, this is what turns me on. Yes. I'm not about that at all. Yeah. Like, you know, like I've always said, like, if I'm, if I'm with somebody that I love, like a female and she wants to bring another woman into it, I would never do it. I won't. Yeah. Because nothing, I wouldn't enjoy it. Right. But I know that it's probably never going to stop there. Yeah. And then what if I, I mean, there's, I'll never be able to say that I didn't cheat on you because no, actually you did, you did it right in front of me. And then what if I enjoyed her more than you? You know what I mean? There's, I would just, or what if next time she says, well, let's bring a guy in. I'm not about that either. Yeah. I'll be okay with the woman, but not of you, not two dicks in here. No. Right. So I think that's where a lot of that comes out where what if I bring it to your attention and you're like, Oh my God, no, what the hell? And then maybe you go and tell my friends what I'm thinking about. Maybe you tell my family or your family, or this is the reason we got a divorce with social media now. Yeah. People might put that right on your page. Like this is the reason I left this guy because this is what he wanted to do. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a damned if you do and damned if you don't kind of a thing. Right. Like it takes a lot of bravery to talk about your, your fantasies. Yeah. And then if you're not that brave and I'm not, I do not blame anybody for, or judge them for not being that brave. But if you're not, that's where the porn comes in because now it's like, I can go here judgment free. Nobody's watching. Nobody is listening. Nobody will even know. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Nobody, nobody even knows. And I think the, I think actually if you don't have any kind of connection with the other person, it's, it's a very high risk, very high reward thing. Cause it's like, I'm putting it out there basically just to get what I want. Right. But if there's a connection there, if this is somebody that you really care about somebody that you love, this conversation is actually more about deepening the connection. Right. Right. It's two completely different agendas. And I think that's, I think it's actually a lot. If you have an emotional connection already built, that conversation is still risky, but it's a lot less. Yeah. It's hard. I always, I've said it a million times on this podcast, but through, through tough conversations, progress is found. Yes. Right. And that goes for your children. That goes for your spouse or boyfriend, girlfriend, guys at work, buddies, you know, the, all of it. I mean, it's just always found on the other side. So if you have somebody in front of you that's going to judge you for something that you have a legitimate fantasy about, and you are legitimately trying to make a deeper connection and they judge you for that. Yeah. That might not be the one man. That could be tough. You know, that might not be the person for you. Yeah. Like, could you imagine doing that? And then, then flipping out and you'd be like, I was just fucking, I was just joking. I just want to see how you would react. You really think I'm into that? What the fuck? Yeah. Right. And they go to the bathroom and cry. Hopefully that's all you do. Yeah. Cry and watch porn. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, the, the clinical side of this is there's a process called disclosure. So you're asking earlier, like, um, what do we do with the couples? Right. Yeah. So we actually teach our clients to this disclosure process, which is just a proper way to talk to your spouse about your problem because guys mess this up so bad. Oh my gosh. So bad. Yeah, I bet. So like guys will drip the information out. Yeah. Cause they don't want to hurt her. Yeah. But then she ends up living in basically constant trauma because she's like, I don't know when you're going to drop another bomb on me. Yeah. I'm going to find out another layer of something terrible that you did. Yeah. Or guys like kind of skim the details and they, they tell the truth technically. Yeah. But it's not really what's actually going on. Um, and then even sometimes when guys do it right and they do tell the truth, they just, they just kind of vomit everything out there. Yeah. And they're like, okay, well, this was great. Yeah. You know, I'm so glad that I feel better. Yeah. I got all five tests, you know, and she's just like, you know, overwhelmed. I can see myself letting it loose and a really bad argument. Sure. Yeah. That's when like, if we're arguing and you hurt me in some kind of way. Yes. Oh yeah. Well, this is what I want. This is the reason I watch it, you know, yeah. Like in retaliation. It's absolutely. That's what I would do. Yeah. I know that 100%. I know how I am. Yeah. Yeah. No. And I think, I think a lot of guys would relate to that for sure. I think it's pretty common. So with our clients, we just teach them, Hey, here's how you have these conversations. Um, usually we recommend as well saying some boundaries around like how you're going to communicate about your recovery journey, all that kind of stuff. There's certain processes there. So, um, that's, that's like the healthier side of it. You know, for guys who are taking their marriage seriously, uh, often cases fighting for it, trying to get it back on track. Right. That can go a long way. Man. And getting these things back on track. I'm just like trying to imagine all the way, the amount of honesty that has to take place in it with your clients on both sides of this ledger. Yeah. You know, it's, I, I, I used to, I used to say the same thing, the amount of honesty, but I've changed my language a bit. It's actually about being honest consistently enough. There you go. That's what actually repairs a relationship. And people, guys would be amazed. Like guys think like, Oh, recovery, that means I have to be perfect. I can't have any slips. And it's really not like that. It's actually just about being consistently transparent with your significant other. That's what rebuilds the trust. And obviously, like you do have to get your act together and clean things up. Yeah. But there's, there's room for you to stumble along the way. If you're at least consistently being honest. Yeah. I mean, you said it, the drip, right? Like, but if, like I'm thinking about it, if you're consistent with that drip of honesty, then it's small doses of it throughout time, rather than just, you know, just turning it on every 10 years, because it's just like, I gotta look at me. Yeah. I gotta get it on my chest. Yeah. So that's, that's really, that's really cool. I can't imagine the conversations that you're pretty to dude. Yeah. It's wild man. Yeah. It's a wild thing. It's, it's wild. And again, it like people just don't think that porn would cause that. They don't think it would derail a life. I could easily see it. Yeah. I could see it. For sure. It'd easily see it. I could definitely see it. I know in my relationship that I was in, it would have definitely, it, it, it definitely hurt it. Yeah. Yeah. Especially when she caught me beating off. Yeah. I'll do it. Yeah. And I tried to, this was when you didn't have laptops and shit, right? It was a regular computer. Oh, okay. And I tried to like hit the power button and the motherfucker froze. So it was like, it just froze. I've never heard that one before. That's funny. So the screen froze. So I was trying to like kick the power button down, you know, the switch. And, uh, and she's like, what are you doing? And I mean, what do you say? You know, I got my, my, my shorts are by my ankles. Got a virus or something. There's a beating off and there's two chicks and a guy on the fucking screen, like, right? We kind of know what happened. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that didn't go over well. Didn't take yourself for that one. Yeah. And, um, but yeah, I could definitely see how that, uh, that, I mean, that, that relationship that I was in for that one, that started it on the down. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. It really hurts. She really felt like, like you're cheating on me. Yeah. And I really wasn't, I didn't feel like I was cheating on you. Yeah. You just, you didn't want to have sex. I came up here to watch porn. Yeah. You know, but it also breaks trust cause it's done in secrecy, right? Like I tell married guys, if your wife doesn't know, there's only two ways it ends, you either confess or you get caught. Yeah. Choice is yours. Just pop it in while she's there. That's what she says. Yeah. I'm doing this right in front of you. Yeah. I don't want to hide it anymore. That's the whole other thing, right? Cause that's the thing now, right? People, people watch porn to spice things up in the bedroom. Sure. But it's not too different than what you were saying earlier. Like if you bring another woman into the bedroom with you and your partner, there's always the risk that, you know, you enjoy that more or, or the way I would say is there's a risk that you condition yourself to need it. And if you condition yourself to need arousal from something else, other than your spouse to then enjoy your sp... Like, how does that make sense? You know, like that can't actually be good for your relationship either. That can't be good for their mental either. No. For your spouse's mental. 100% like that's the grade to her. Yeah. So you can put porn on so you can get hardened. Yeah. You know, or do you want me to get another chick over here so you can finally nut, you know, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, we all inherently know that's not the way it's supposed to be. I mean, if, if you flip that around, like if, if my chick needed another guy in the bedroom to get aroused, like I'm going to feel this big, right? And I'm not going to feel good about myself ever. Like that is going to kill my, all my ego that I even have. Yeah. You know, I've never thought about it that way. You know, bring a chicken, maybe bring a dude in. Uh-uh. Yeah. You know, so that, there you go. Like that's what betrayal trauma is. So that's what your, you know, your previous partner was feeling when she saw you watching porn is like, Oh, I guess like, you, like I'm not enough for you. Yeah. You know, it's all of that. Well, another girl also turned you on. Yeah. Exactly. Oh, you got, you got a heart from another. Yeah. So cue all the comparison. But I don't even know her yet. It doesn't matter. No, it doesn't matter. No, that argument doesn't hurt. I don't even know her. Yeah. I'll never run into her on the street. Yeah. I know. Yeah. It doesn't work. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, the recovery process for this, like when addicts and alcoholics, when they go to rehab, it's 30, 60 or 90 days, right? Yeah. Um, what is a recovery process for pornography addiction look like? Yeah. That's a great question. So a lot of the programs out there that help guys with porn are typically 90 days. Okay. We found that 90 days is just not enough. And it's mostly because when, I think when a drug addict goes into rehab, I mean, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is usually it's not his first time when he finally gets free. I think for my experience, I went to rehab once and I'm the only person that I've ever met and I know a lot of people in the community before. Yeah. I know I'm the only person I've ever met that went to rehab one time and got sober. Interesting. So most people that come on here have been seven, eight, 17, 27 times. Usually it's double digits. That's what I've heard. Yeah. So, but for you and you're, you're a little unique. You're a little unique because you were like 32 to 42. Yeah. I was ready to just stop all in that. And I also think like some of the stories we hear with the people coming on, they're like, yeah, my parents forced me to go at 17. Yeah. And I didn't want to go. Yeah. Yeah. They're not volunteering themselves into. And then I got in trouble, but with, by the law and then I had to go again, the court mandated stuff. Yeah. It's true. And so it's like, I think by the time he ended, it was like, I'm, I'm surrendering to this. I'm ready to get sober. It's still very rare though. It's super rare. Yeah. But I also think that he's a rare guy that's going into rehab for the first time at 42 years old. Yeah. I got you. I got you. So I think a unique set of circumstances for Mike. Yeah. Um, yeah. And, but this also sounds, I mean, dude, you had a 60 something. You said 70 year old man, roll in there. Oh yeah. You know, yeah. Yeah. We've had, we've had people all across the board. So our, our program is not 90 days long because we found it wasn't long enough for people to really understand our system and actually like apply it. Mm hmm. Cause what we do is very counterintuitive in a lot of ways. So there's kind of a paradigm shift there. So our program is 120 days. We have about a 70% sex success rate of guys who like, who get free at least for two months in those first four months, two consecutive months. Um, and the longer they stay with us after that, um, the better the results are obviously, right, but, um, that 120 day mark has been really good for us to not just to get people clean cause with porn, like you can get clean for a little bit. Um, but then, you know, your wife says your wife turns you down for sex. You have a stressful project. And we're like, it doesn't take much to kind of set you back. So we just found 120 days. The, the results are just a lot better. They're a lot longer lasting and fewer guys were having relapses later on. Okay. So something that I know, and this is, I would say this with my porn too is once it's in my head, I'm going to watch it. Right. Just like once I'm, once I get in my car and I make that drive to my drug dealers house, there's no turning me around. Yeah. I'm in. Yeah. Once you're there, you're there. I'm on my way. Yeah. And I'm sure that's the same way with people in recovery for porn. Yeah. Once that hits their mind and they grab their phone, they're probably fucking like, yeah, there's probably no turning back. Well, there's no drive to your phone. Yeah. That's true. There's no, like, there's no thought process. There's no, there's no, like it's instant. Yeah. Like it's instant change. At least with you, you had the moment to think, I got to go get my car and drive to go pick up a bag, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's true. With your clients, they don't have that. There's no barrier here. There's no barrier. There's zero. No, but the difference is with pornography, like you can't, you can't not find girls attractive. You know what I mean? Right. So you can't fully eliminate the stimulus or, or what would cause you maybe to springboard into thinking about it, having the visual, whatever it is. So there, there is definitely the thing of like, yeah, you don't even want to dabble because even dabbling is going to be a problem. Right. Right. But you also need to have some kind of strategy in place so that if you are tempted or if you do start down there, you need to be able to kind of get off as quickly as possible. So in, like in, in recovery, you normally pick up the phone and call another addict, right? Right. That's what, that's what, so is that the same kind of thing with y'all? Yeah. They get the phone and call somebody. It could be that we're not, we don't mandate that specifically. Um, we try to have a bit more of an individual approach. So we let people try different things. That can be one. Another one is like, um, is changing your environment, going for walks, moving your body, stretching, push-ups, like just, you can really shift your, your brain pretty quickly. If you know what to do, everybody's different. So there's different things. Some people, they have playlists, like just music that gets them into a way better frame of mind. Yeah. So they'll just queue up the playlists on their phone or whatever. So it's, it's different for everybody, but something that's, you know, quick and easy. You know, what's funny is when I went to rehab, this is kind of on topic. When I went to rehab, probably everybody that used drugs, watch porn. I know I did. Yeah. And to the, to the max. When I went to rehab, you couldn't have your phones, right? You had to turn your phone in and there was no computer there either. Right. There was one, uh, Playboy in the upstairs bathroom. Oh man. There's 10 guys. Right. Oh Jesus. So everyone's using Playboy. Well, the first week that I'm there, the oldest guy there, he's gone now, but the oldest guy there, his name was Tony. When he released, he took the fucking Playboy with him and left one page. Right. Nice. One page left. And that one page went from room to room to room. And it was, it would be funny because someone's going to take a shower and like, Hey, who's got page 19? That's the only page we had. And someone would have to go, it's in my room. Go grab it. Right. But I mean, it was like, it's kind of a funny story, but it's still, that's how serious it still is. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, even though we're in a place for recovery from drugs, that porn, it's like you said, it's not, it's not as bad. Right. I mean, I'm not smoking meth. Yeah. Just watching porn. Yeah. Yeah. Your brain, I need this. Your brain still needs the release. Yeah. Yeah. It needs the reward. It needs something to look forward to. And, um, those guys probably don't even realize how dependent their bodies still are on getting that release. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, I, I did a tour in Europe when I launched my book and, um, it was, I was a bunch of random things came together. I wound up speaking at a Belgium prison. Whoa. They wanted me to go in and talk about porn addiction. I was like, dude, I'm going to get crushed, but okay. And, um, you know, they introduced me and they didn't, they didn't tell me what I was going to talk about. They let me do it. And as soon as I met the, as mentioned pornography, all they do, they all just like, yeah, yeah. Cause, um, yeah, cause it's, it's just, it's so widespread. Like that's how these guys are getting by. That's how they survive. You know, I don't obviously rehab is not prison, but you know, it's the same thing now because they have laptops and tablets and all that. True. So I'm sure they have access to it. I'm sure. Yeah. I don't think they, I've had some buddies that have been in prison for 10 and 15 years and they've had cell phones in there that nobody knew that they had. They just kept them well hidden and people snuck them into them. Oh wow. Yeah. So I'm sure. Yeah. They're finding their ways. They're for sure. They're, they're, if you have an addiction, you're going to find your way to it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so let me ask you this. Did you ever go to meetings or anything? Like I know in Austin, they have sex addicts anonymous. Yeah. Right. Yeah. SAA. Yeah. And did you ever go to meetings like that? I didn't. No, I, I never really got into the 12 step model and I didn't have anything against it. It's just, it never presented itself to me. Truthfully. I didn't learn about SAA until I became a coach, like helping guys in this area. Yeah. I didn't even know if it was out there. So my fiance, she went into a, uh, she went to a meeting. She thought it was an AA meeting, but it was a sex addicts anonymous meeting, but it was a men's only meeting. Right. Oh dang. So she walked in. Oh boy. There's like 15 guys. And she didn't know it was a men's only meeting. She just thought it was an AA meeting. Okay. And she's just the only girl. Yeah. So after about, she starts hearing like some of them talk and she's like, what the fuck? What are they talking about? They're talking some crazy shit. Yeah. And someone finally went over and asked her to leave. And they said, Hey, um, you're ruining all of their recovery. You got to go. Yeah. So she left, but yeah, it's not even being rude. Yeah. Like I was just really, I just be like, look, it's the wrong. You're the one who's recovering. Yeah. We're trying to recover from something here. And all I'm hearing is boys, the men music play as you're fucking sitting here. Yeah. How did we share my story? Right. Man. So I, the community of this, you know, outside, you know, outside of your program and probably other programs like it, um, are there places that, that they can go to, to kind of, yeah. Yeah. It's getting better. Okay. It's getting better for sure. Like compared to when I started in 2018 to now way more online platforms, online communities, some of them are free. Some of them are like, you know, 15, 20 bucks a month, whatever. So there's lots of communities online in person is still pretty difficult. Like there's SAA. There's still nothing really solid for people that are struggling with porn in person, uh, at least what I've found so far. So most of it you're looking at stuff online. Look probably like zoom meetings and shit. Right. Yeah. Cause there's probably still some shame, like walking into a meeting. It's tougher for sure. Yeah. I wouldn't think so for sure. Yeah. Like even, even us getting like my, my book comes with a free workbook and we've had people do small groups. Like we get pictures sometimes of like, Hey, you know, we're going through your small group or we're going through your book together as a small group. Yeah. But actually like getting churches to like have it is really, really tough. Yeah. Because if you say like, we're going through this book about porn addiction together, if you raise your hand to that, like there's, you know, you have to be able to do it privately and it's just, there's a lot of layers to it. Well, you know, it's what's crazy is like, we just had, um, we just had, was it marriage night at our church where couples night, it was couples night, right? Okay. Where you get together and it's, it's for people that are married or people that are trying to get married or even if you're just in a relationship, it's to help you build a relationship and trust. And you would think that they would bring that to the forefront because I bet you that's a big marriage tear downer. Big time. I mean, you know what I'm saying? And that's something that I would think most men have watched at least some type of porn. 100%. A thousand percent. Right. And you would think that they would bring that in to it, especially like couples night or, you know, anything like that. I really believe they should. Yeah. Because this is something that as in a marriage, it's going to, it can run a marriage. It's, and it's probably going to come up. Yeah, exactly. Every relationship it's going to come up. Yeah. Well, I think, look, if somebody's watching this and struggling with this, create a, create a group, create a community, like one that you can show up to in person, let's, let's start doing that. Man, like the, what do they say? The opposite of addiction is connection. Yeah. That's right. That's right. And I've never seen a stronger. Community of people than those a rooms. And a CA. It's incredible. Yeah. And this seems to me like it should be another room. Yeah. I got another room out there for this because it's that big of a problem. Yeah. I mean, you have a book, you're doing well with it. You're going to Belgium. I mean, like you're talking to people in other countries about it. Yeah. So I'm just saying, like, we, that has to be done. That has to, like stop doing this online, man. Like go create one, be the guy that goes in there and sit there with one other dude. And then that guy will tell two others. Yeah. And then it'll bring your friends. You know what? Like when guys join our program, one of the first things that we hear is, I thought I was the only one. Yeah. You know, and then they, and then they see all the other guys, they get on a call. They hear, you know, but so-and-so who's got the same issue in his marriage that he's gotten his or, you know, whatever. And it's like, man, I had no idea. Like I thought I was the only one. Like that community part is so, so important. One of the biggest comments that we get from this is when people respond and say, I didn't know that someone else actually did that. Like I didn't know that someone that you, you also did this and so did I. I just, I was in shame from it. Cause I thought I was the only one that hid drugs in my daughter's car seat or did look in carpets, looking for meth cause they ran out, right? And I think that's the same thing. Whenever other people, that's, that's how you liberate. When you, It's actually in the details. Yeah. That's how you, you, you, let's not hide it. Let's talk about it. Yeah. And then now it has no power over you. Exactly. Like when you're in there and you're talking about it and you're open about it and you're bouncing stuff off of other people. Yeah. You're the power that you gave this thing to take you in. Yeah. You're shooing all of that away. The moment you're, yeah, you're flipped. You're completely flipping it around on, on its head. And now I'm just another dude in here who struggles along with this other dude and with that guy and with that guy, that's like, man, open yourselves up. I mean, it's, I don't know how else to say it. No, for sure. And it's, and it's cool because I think, especially when it's in a community, the initial experience of, okay, I'm talking about it and other people are talking about it and we have an understanding that's really liberating. But the second part comes afterwards when everybody still treats you the same afterwards, right? Cause, cause you always have that in the back of your head. Like I can put myself out there and they might look at me in the eyes and say, I, thanks for sharing, man. That's cool. Yeah. But if they treat me differently afterwards, then it doesn't matter what they said to my face. Yeah. But when you get that community where it's like, man, no, we, we actually love you more. Yeah. I know you more and I'll actually love you more for it. Yeah. That's liberating, dude. That's real freedom. Yeah. No. That's what these rooms do for me. Yeah. When I go to these rooms. Yeah. Uh, like I was telling someone today, today's my birthday and I've never gotten more birthday text messages than I did today. No way. And I swear to God, probably 40% of them has the person's name and then AA or NA after it, because that somebody that I met, right? Wow. And that it's never before have I ever had that many messages saying, Hey, happy birthday. And it was the majority of it or half of the people were people that I met in rooms. Wow. And it's the same with porn addiction. They should definitely have rooms and not like I've done AA, I've done meetings on zoom. I don't get the same thing from it. Yeah. I like to go into a meeting that way because fellow shipping is one of the most important things. So important is going there early meeting people, staying after meeting people. And then, Hey, let's, let's go have dinner. Yeah. Let's go, let's go fellowship after this. Yeah. It's so true. Yeah. The human connections being taken away from our world, like every day. Yeah. I was stealing it. Yeah. It's taking it away. Yeah. And it's like, I mean, I'm not like patting myself on the back here, but when I go Christmas shopping every year, I go to the stores. I'm not going to order anything online unless it's somebody in another state or something, then, then I'll do it and have it sent over there. But if you're here and I'm buying gifts for you here, I'm going to go fight those shitty battles with people who are stressed out. Yeah. That human connections important, man. Yeah. Like it's, it's super, super important to have that. Yeah. And that's all this is. That's all those meetings are. That's what these meetings should be. Yeah. If they start getting ramped up. So I hope if anybody takes anything away from this, that's what they need to take is like, be brave and, and start a room. Yeah. Find a spot. If it's in a park or whatever, like get out and talk about it. And you ruined my, I was going to say happy birthday to you, man. I love that. This thing. But I'll tell you brand up your birthday. Yeah. How dare you? Selfish of me. Yeah. What a dick you are. Selfish recovered addict. So ladies and gentlemen, it's Mike's birthday. Thanks. I mean, happy birthday, dude. Yeah. How old are you today? 45. 45. 45. Let's go. 45 years old. This is my third sober birthday from alcohol since I was 13. Okay. And from drugs from probably when I was 20. Wow. Oh, dude, that's. So my addiction started at 32, like full fledged every day. Okay. But I still dabbled through the years, right? Especially on like, we're going out. I'm going to do something. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. So I wonder if they have any rooms here because Austin's a huge recovery. Is it? Bro, it's the recovery community. I will put Austin, Texas against any city in the world. Get out of here. As far as recovery. I had no idea. It's, it's huge. The recovery community is so big. Wow. Everybody knows everybody. And if you don't know somebody, then you know somebody that I know or vice versa. Yeah. Yeah. Like I'll know your sponsor or you'll know mine. Yeah. And everybody is just like, it's insane. And that was the biggest thing that I found when I got in the rooms is how willing people are to help you. Yeah. And how willing they are to pick up the phone when you call. Wow. And how willing they are to step out for you. Right. And take their time. Right. Because that's what we learn in recovery is when you're in yourself, go help another addict. Yes. Hey, Ford, go get out of yourself. Get out of yourself. Help somebody else. Right. That's how you stay sober. Yeah. And give it away. What the promises and everything that you got, everything you learned, give it to somebody else. Yeah. I wonder if they have a porn addiction group here. I know they have. They look down to it. And if they don't, they should. Yeah. And I know it's not hard to start one. Interesting. Because there's room. The, one of the clubs that I go to, club 101. Yeah. It's they have everything. Okay. Heroin's Anonymous, Crystal Meth Anonymous. Wow. That's specific. Heroin's Anonymous, they have, and I want to say that if you want to start your own group, that if there's an hour that nobody uses that club, that you can rent it for the month and then just everybody's dues that they contribute to just pays for it. Right. Right. Yep. And if they don't have, I'm going to look into that because they, I would absolutely go to that. Yeah. Yeah. And more people should, especially men, because let's be honest, that's nothing that we really talk about in the workforce or bring up in meetings or. No, properly at least. Right. Yeah. There's absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah. No, that'd be amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't know that about Austin though. Huge recovery. Huge. Really interesting. So big. Yeah. We're, we're, we're doing a South by Southwest is next weekend. Yeah. Yeah. Someone was just telling me that. Yeah. Yeah. And we have a few guests that are coming in from out of town. Okay. That are going to come on. They're only going to be here for that weekend. Yeah. Yeah. And then we're, we have an event that we're helping sponsor. Oh, sick. For us. That's a. So we're going to be at an event. Look at you guys. Yeah. We're, we're growing up. You're big time. Yeah. We're getting bigger. We're, we're so excited. What's the event? So it is Bart Crow and it is so sober by sober South by sober South by event. Yeah. Sober South by is what they're calling it. Yeah. Bart Crow is a country singer. It's going to be a country, country music concert. Yeah. And it's a 100% sober event. So it's on March 15th and seven to 10 at night. And it's with our friend, Sean Livingston from I am Livingston. Oh yeah. I am redemption. And yeah. Sorry. I am redemption and, and our friends at atomic souls. Okay. Um, we are so cool. So honored to be a part of that. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds amazing. Yeah. Wish you were sticking around, man. I know. I was right. I knew. Come do, come do Texas. Yeah. I'll do Texas. They have a sober event here probably every month. Okay. There's a huge, I mean, I have to look up. I honestly had no idea. Yeah. Yeah. It's really good to know. Where are you from exactly? I'm based out of Niagara Falls, Canada. Oh, wow. And then my wife's Jamaican. So we spent a couple months in the winter in Jamaica usually. Oh, you poor thing. Hard life. Yeah. Yeah. That's someone's got to live it. But yeah. Yeah. It's not easy, man. Yeah. You're terrible. Yeah. That's super dope. Well, look, man, thank you for coming by and talking about this. I really enjoyed this conversation. This was great. Great. This was amazing. And I learned a lot. Oh, cool. Good. A lot, like so much more than I did from the first time we made a arbitrary attempt at talking about porn. This was go watch that. Go watch that episode. Yeah. You watch that episode. You're just like, you're like, Louise, you're going to go crazy. Like you'll be yelling at the TV. Like, you don't know what you're talking about. That was just the meth speaking. Yeah. Yeah. So. No, I definitely got different viewpoints, like things that I never probably thought about. Yeah. And, um, yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to look into see if they have. Yeah. And if they don't, they absolutely should. I know there's a gambler's anonymous that they just opened up. There you go. Yeah. I mean, if gambling's on the list, the only thing is I don't know if they have, like most of these meetings, they have steps that you go through. Okay. Um, which I'm sure the 12 steps really goes to life. You can apply the 12th, that's a part of it. I just 12 steps to anything. If you can do it for sex addiction, you can do it for porn addiction. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I can apply some wording. I'm not an addict. I can apply those 12 steps to my life. Oh yeah. Yeah. And in recovery, I really can. So 100% is. Look, man, we were honored to have you. Thank you so much. I'm glad you're here. It was great. I want you again to tell the people about your book. Yeah. Plug that again. Plug yourself. How people find you. Yeah. Yeah. I'm Sathya Sam. The book is the last relapse. Uh, DM me on Instagram and I'll just send you free copy. How do you spell your name? S-A-T-H-I-Y-A. So yeah, if you type that in, um, it should lead you to the right places. Yeah. Kind of a big guy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You should be able to find me. Yeah. That's great. Well, great, man. Again, thank you so much. Enjoy your time here. Yeah. And us and hanging out. Hopefully you get to eat some barbecue and. I've already eaten a lot of barbecue at a big old Texas take this afternoon. There you go. Yeah. That's been good. That's been good so far. All right. Well, we're going to snap some pictures and then you're going to sign our wall. Yeah. I'm really excited about that. That's cool. I always tell this to every one of our people that come in that are so gracious with I, you make this look easy and telling your story. And I know it's not. It's very hard. You're telling it to a lot of people. So I appreciate that. And because of that, when you're on that wall, you're part of our family. Oh, and if you need us for anything. Reach out and the door is always open to you the next time you're in Austin. Oh, thanks. Love to have you on again. Yeah. We can keep talking about this. I'm sure there's another four or five episodes in this topic. Yeah. For sure. I want to pop one more question. Sure. Something I wanted to ask earlier. That was awesome ending, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. So when they go through your program, right? Like most people that go through rehab, they go to sober living afterwards. Yeah. Where did they just go back to their life? Or is there like a sober living where? Yeah. Good question. Okay. So that's kind of a different difference between like in-patient, out-patient rehab versus online. Right. Our program is all built online. Okay. Um, so for us, what we do is we have a continuation after those four months for them to stay plugged into our community. They still have a group call. They can attend every week. And we kind of give them ways to basically keep the, the plum line. I got you. Yeah. Makes sense. If you go into like a facility and you can do, you can do rehab. They do exist for porn addiction. Um, that, that's when you would have more of that approach where they're thinking about how you get acclimated back in real life. Cause I'm sure like most of them, you say, or most people are married that go there. Yeah. And a lot of them, not all of them, but some of them. And I'm sure that that, you know, once it's like, you got to come home. Like I already have trust issues right now. Yeah. You're not going to stay in some house somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Like it is better to be at home for sure. For sure. Um, yeah. I mean, sometimes people need to get away, but generally it's good to be at all. Okay. Sorry, I didn't mean to step on your end. Now you can end it again. Yeah. Well, thank you again. Family signing wall and stuff. Um, thanks dude for real. Come back anytime. Yeah. Um, you need us for anything. We'll come calling. Thanks man. And, um, let's keep this line of communication open. 100%. And if we can figure out a way to get a room open here in Austin, Texas, yeah, we'll definitely do a call to arms for, for you and all the people that struggle with this thing. Oh, thanks man. That'd be amazing. Yeah, dude. If you guys are ever in Canada or Jamaica, bro, doors open. I want to go to the. Let's, let's not get ourselves. Yeah. I'm going to pick Jamaica first. All right. Pick a Jamaica first. Yeah. Rightfully so. Well, look with that being said, uh, to Addickson Moran, we're out of here. Peace. See you. Yeah. That was an awesome episode. Dude, that was great.