195: Caring For Others vs. Carrying Them—How to Build Healthy Dependencies with Nedra Tawwab

But very often when you're hyper independent, you just retreat. You go further into yourself and your inner world becomes louder and you forget that there is community here to support me. There are people who can help me be well. When someone has said, do you need help with anything? And you've been like, no. Who was that person? Go back and call them and say, hey, last week I told you I was having a rough week and you told me to call you if I need anything. And today I am calling because I do need a distraction. Would you like to go and have dinner? Hey everyone, welcome back to this week's deep dive episode of The Best of You. I'm Dr. Allison and today we're talking about something many of us struggle with, especially those of us who are highly empathetic, who care about a lot of other people, which is pretty much everybody listening to this podcast. We're talking about codependency. Overfunctioning is another word for it, and what it looks like to build healthy trust and connection with others without losing yourself. I want to anchor today's conversation in a story from scripture that doesn't get talked about nearly enough, but it feels so relevant to modern life. It's from Exodus 18, and it's the story of Moses and his father-in-law, Jethro. Moses has just led the Israelites out of Egypt. People are coming to him all day long from morning until evening with their problems, their conflicts, their questions. And Moses just listens. He shows up. He carries everything that comes at him every single day. I think so many of us could relate to how Moses feels, you know, in these moments. He's really trying to hold everybody together. And from the outside, it looks really noble. It looks faithful. It looks responsible, right? He's the good guy in the story. But Jethro watches this and says something that stops Moses in his tracks. And he kind of confronts him. He says, what you are doing isn't good. You and these people who come to you will only wear yourselves out. And then Jethro names something important. He says to Moses, you cannot do this alone. And you weren't meant to. He tells Moses to share the load, to let others carry what is theirs, to stay connected to the people without becoming responsible for everything. What I love about this story is that Moses isn't being corrected for carrying too much. He's being corrected for carrying too much. And that distinction is essential because so many of us were shaped early on to believe that love or care means over functioning, that being a good partner, parent, friend or leader means anticipating needs before they're spoken. It means managing other people's emotions, staying constantly available and quietly putting ourselves last. And when we finally get exhausted, the temptation is to swing hard in the other direction. I'll just do it all myself. I don't need anyone. I'll cut people off before I get resentful. We end up hurting the people we really mean to care for well. But Exodus 18 shows us a different way. Shared responsibility. Healthy limits. empowering other people versus enabling them connection without collapse. And that's why I'm so grateful and so excited for today's guest. I'm joined by Nedra Glover-Tawab. She's a licensed therapist and one of the clearest voices out there on boundaries, relationships, and emotional health. You may know her from her bestselling book, Set Boundaries, Find Peace, and Drama Free, and her work online where she helps people every day untangle unhealthy relational patterns without shaming or oversimplifying them. Her brand new book out this week is called The Balancing Act, Creating Healthy Dependency and Connection Without Losing Yourself. And it speaks directly to this tension so many of us live in. In this conversation, we talk about why cutting back is often wiser than cutting off, how hyper-independence can be just as costly as over-dependence, what over-functioning actually looks like in everyday life, and how learning to tolerate a little discomfort can open the door to healthier, more sustainable connection. If you've ever felt caught between resentment and withdrawal, if you've ever tired of carrying more than your share, or if you're longing for relationships that feel mutual, grounded, and alive, this episode has something for you. Please enjoy my conversation with Nedra Tawak. So I am just so thrilled to meet you. I have just devoured so much of the goodness you've been putting into the world and just so grateful for your voice that is so nuanced, so clear, so honest, so practical. Nedra, so thank you for being here today. Thank you for having me. It is my pleasure. I want to just start. You've written a lot of books about boundaries, about families. I am just so thrilled about this new book, The Balancing Act. I'd love to just start with your heart behind the book and what led you to write it. Yeah, I have been a therapist for nearly 20 years now, if not over. Gosh, no, I'm not going to do the math, but for a very long time. And one of the things that I have noticed is our desire to be in relationship. And sometimes those relationships are unhealthy and we want to keep them without losing ourselves, without giving too much of ourselves. And this book is really for the people who want to be in community and connection and struggle with knowing how to do that. Yeah, I love that, that we want to be in relationship. We don't want to lose ourselves. There's a both and there. Just to hit the ground running, what does healthy dependency mean to you, right? Where we're depending on relationships in a healthy way, somewhere, you know, that isn't the hyper independence, the, you know, I won't trust anybody, but also not that I'm losing myself. I'm so dependent on this person that I'm setting myself aside. What does that look like to you? It looks like knowing when to hold boundaries, when to be flexible with them, who to be flexible with, how to accept help, how to offer it to other people, how to ask for support, how to, you know, maybe decline it because of a person's motives. It's being intentional about your relationship and your connections and knowing that connection is important. And there's a certain way that you also need to show up because I think, you know, over the last few years, we have moved more toward this individualism, like me, me, me, and everyone in the world has to do or say what I need when in actuality, other people have needs too, and we do have to be considerate. Yeah, exactly. Right. And so in your practice, have you seen that kind of that over the over the years that sort of almost an overcorrection, especially with the boundaries movement. How have you seen that with people trying to find that middle ground? I've seen it some in my practice, but I've seen it more via my DMs, right? I've seen it more via emails where people are messaging me and saying, hey, I read Set Boundaries, Find Peace, and I cut off five people. I'm like, I didn't say that. was that the takeaway that you got from the book I said set boundaries find peace not leave everybody behind um so you know I I think it depends on what people perceive as necessary you know sometimes those cutoffs are necessary and sometimes some situations are workable yeah you know I think before we cut off some people just need to be cut back and in in in that idea if we we cut back sometimes how often we talk about how often we talk to them, how often we invite them to things. Sometimes that will save a relationship. If I see you less, if I don't talk to you as much, but if I keep our connection the way that it was when it wasn't working for me, I might need to cut you off to, you know, to feel better. But there's a lot of gray there that, you know, I think is worth exploring. I feel that with you, therapist to therapist, and being online, right? That, that misconstrued message, these extremes that you're not, you're not saying, and we see this, you know, this sort of, I know you've spoken into some of the, the going no contact culture. And gosh, as therapists, we know, you know, gosh, I work with people where it's like, gosh, there needs to be really strong boundaries, increase because of the harm being done. And so often, so many of us fall in that middle gray area. And I love what you said. Sometimes it's not cut off, it's cut back. It's shifting how we show up. So what are the, I love how it shows up in your DMs. That's a great example. What are some other telltale signs when we're getting too far toward the hyper independence toward that? I'm just gonna, you know if do me you know what what are what are i'm thinking of my listeners like how can we know you know sometimes i even struggle with this you know i'll i don't have a lot of bandwidth and so i'm like am i cutting back too much am i missing out on yes there's a mess and some inefficiency in relationship and also am i missing something here verse you know how can i know in my body you You know, when I'm avoiding something versus when I'm really needing to create some spaciousness and some different rhythms for myself. Yeah, one thing that, you know, your question made me think of is a big indicator is not having enough people, not having enough supports. you may be maybe you didn't cut back but you also didn't seek enough support you didn't embrace enough people who may have offered or you're not putting yourselves yourself in situations to curate community um you know i think of some folks and i i don't know if they could have a birthday dinner really you know if you if they invited 15 people it's like who who would your 15 people be I don't hear you I don't know if you know 15 that's a sign that you know and and and that could be mother father so I not saying 15 because sometimes family included we can get anyone to support us yeah And so that an indicator You need more people Yeah that you do not live in the world alone And those more people it could be a neighbor. It could be someone who's a part of your religious community, a church member, a pastor, a email, whoever is in your community. It could be, you know, a parent in the parenting group in your neighborhood. It could be a college roommate. I don't know. But an indicator that our hyper dependence has gone too far is we don't have enough people. Another one is when people don't know that we're struggling. If someone doesn't know you've had some major life event and people aren't aware of it. Yeah. you know especially your key people it's like oh i'm gonna deal with this on my own well you know it might be helpful for people to know that you're divorcing it might be helpful for people to know that you recently lost your best friend they they they might could support you but very often when you're hyper independent you just retreat you go further into yourself and your inner world becomes louder and you forget that there is community here to support me. There are people who can help me be well. Quince is one of those brands that makes getting dressed feel easier. 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Go to Quince.com slash best of you for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash best of you to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash best of you. I love the real practicality, just that mental Rolodex of who are the people I know would show up if I reached out. and a little bit of who knows about, who are the handful of people who know. And for the hyper-independent, we'll get to the other side of it, but what are some ways, because usually there's a reason, this is rooted in attachment patterns, right? This is rooted in wounding. There's a fear of reaching up. There's a fear of saying, I'm going through this. And it's just easier to rely on myself. What are some ways that we can take baby steps, take gentle steps toward, you know, maybe there are a couple of people who are trustworthy, but I just, I'm like, oh, there's a voice in my head that's saying, oh, don't bother them. Or you don't want to be a burden. Or you'll be fine. You don't really need it. Or, you know, maybe they'll respond poorly, you know, and then I'll have to. How do we begin to move past our own sort of obstacles there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we have to make sure that we are remembering the pain caused by one, two or a few and not all. Because very often we overemphasize what, you know, let's say it was an ex. You had this terrible relationship with this one person. that is one person in the world that doesn't mean that every single dating experience will end up the same way if anything now that you know those signs this is what i tell my clients all the time now that you know those signs i think you're better equipped to date better i don't know if you need to lose trust in yourself because your guard is up i mean you're trying to keep everybody out. Do you think somebody would get away with anything? I don't think so. I wish we could run some practice drills in the real world, but it sounds like your guards are pretty high and you have to trust that you can meet someone who is good for you. That the people who hurt you in the past, they have lost their power over you and you can, you know, have friends and you can be, you know, trusting of new people. Yeah, I love I love that. Actually, the the data is on your side. You're you, you, you can't. And if someone does respond poorly, you know what to do. You've proven that you will back out, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't try again. That's I like that. So what about so we know we need to practice reaching out. We know we need to push against some of those narratives in our head. There's that side of balance, right? Of finding this sort of relational balance in our lives. What about for those of my listeners or those of us who are over-depending and are losing ourselves? What are the telltale signs of that? How do we know we're enmeshed or over out of balance in that way. What does that look like? Well, very often we use the word codependent, right? Like you are, you are overly dependent, you are codependent, or maybe you're not codependent, you're just overly dependent. But what that typically looks like is not having a separation in a relationship between another person and yourself. So we could also mean enmeshment. Yeah. Where maybe it's not a lot of unhealthy things happening, but it's like it's always in the spirit of being with this other person. And I remember when I was in middle school, I was known for hanging out with one person. So if you saw her, you saw me. If you saw me, you saw her. And so people would say, well, where is so and so? And I'm like, oh, she's at her mom's house today like it would we were enmeshed we were it was like a package deal if I went she went whatever she liked I like and it wasn't until you know many years later where we started to break up that enmeshment and I met some we went to different high schools so she met some friends I met some friends there were some struggles of oh I don't like your new friends right but it really was an enmeshment of this is us this is how we think and you can't do anything else and I can't do anything else. Now, sure, the relationship evolved and we met new people all as well, but that does happen sometimes. Where we are so not necessarily codependent. We're not helping anybody with a problem with alcohol. They may not have money issues, but we are just joined at the hip, so to speak, where there's really no separate ideas and thoughts or time in some instances. I love that example. and it because of and also part of the signal of it is that it it did create friction when you wanted to expand and i i think that's an interesting like what happened and you can feel it what happens if i want to do something outside of this friend group what happens is there going to be a tolerance for that and am i am i not looking for that because of fear I think this can also happen in families which speaks to some of your other work I remember when I was in you know out of college and I don't know my young adulthood and I remember if someone asked me what I thought about something I literally would sometimes say well my parents think this that's how I would answer the question because I didn't really know what I thought apart from my family. I didn't know at the time, you know, it was something later, I was like, gosh, I didn't know how to answer my own, with my own thought or my own opinion. And it was really telling that that, I think that can happen with friends, that can happen with a partner, with a spouse, where we can't speak on behalf of our own ideas. And some of that might be because we haven't figured out ourselves well enough. And some of it might be because there's a fear of what will this other person think or will it drive them away? So those can be, again, the strong narratives that we carry inside. Or we may support someone else being more capable than us. Yeah. Right? Like they are such a great decision maker. I have to follow them. Yes. Yes. We put them on a pedestal a little bit. Yeah. This person makes the best decisions about dinner. This person makes the best decision about politics. This person makes the, instead of researching on my own, developing my own preference, developing my idea. Sometimes it's, it's like a continuation of childhood, right? You just attach yourself to this other figure. Or maybe you just stay attached to that family. 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Thanks to Remy for sponsoring this episode. it can get into the comparison trap i i genuinely think they're better than me right if i could only do it like they could if i could only write it gets into that let's talk a little bit about when it's getting into the area i think you touch on this in the book of over functioning which is another way of thinking about codependency what what how do you think of over functioning we throw that word around a lot What does it mean to you And how does that relate Where does that creep into this kind of dynamic Yeah I think of over almost as like doing too much in a relationship There's, I really love Christmas movies and there's this one Christmas movie, I believe it's This Christmas. Yep, This Christmas. And the, it's about a family and they all come home with their children and their, you know, partners and all of this stuff. So they come home for Christmas to their mother's house. And one of the siblings, her, her husband says, would you mind getting that for me while they're eating? And he's talking about like, can you cut my steak? And she gets up and she's like cutting the steak. And her sister was like, do you want me to chew it up for him? What's happening here? He can't cut his own steak. And maybe there are some couples where that's a completely healthy dynamic but in the movie with that couple in particular it was very much her feeling like um she didn't have enough and he had so much everything in the relationship was about him supporting him his career his stuff I will put my life on the back burner I am not as important or significant as him that was the character depiction. Right. And it shows up as over functioning to make sure his world is. Yes. It gets at that same thing of there. But there is a sort of subtle, either they're better than me, it can also be they have bigger problems than I have. So I need to orient my life around kind of minimizing our own needs as well. So what are your books are so practical? Your work is so practical what are some really practical steps we can take what do you what's something you you know you've kind of stumbled on in your own work in your own writing in your own practice that that can help us because these get really entrenched they can be hard especially when they're deep like you're describing in the movie where it's but maybe been years and you're not even aware of it or or you're aware of it and to change that pattern might cost something um i think a part of it is we have to do what feels uncomfortable. And for many of us, I would say 99.9%. That's a really hard practice. If you are a person who is hyper independent, and you need more people, I think even, you know, noticing the people who've, who've offered to help and actually giving them a task to help with, that's really hard. Because you have bought into the belief that you can do it by yourself and you don't need anybody else. Yep. But the practice of I actually do need people looks like needing them. You know, so you you you can't have community without calling on them and being a villager. Right? It's hard. It's hard. Yeah, it's hard to have community any other way so you know i think one of the one of the challenges is we have to get out of our comfort zone and so many of us we want to do what feels good oh it feels so icky to to accept that help from that person i once had um i knew of someone who broke their ankle because they were like using something that wasn't a ladder to fix something in their house at a place that was really unreachable and they either should have had a handyman or they at least should have purchased the ladder and they ended up falling and breaking their ankle and I said your support in that situation was a ladder or a handyman and you use neither now you have a doctor's bill and many, many doctor's visits because you did not want to ask for help. Oh, this is me. I hear you. That is so real. That is so real. Where you're starting to do really kind of dumb things because it's just, and there can be real consequences. Oh, yeah. Yeah. A thousand dollars, you know, like thousands of dollars on this consequence of. not wanting to accept the support when I when I look in the book I mean when I think about the book I think there's a well I know there is there's a portion where I talk about you know support is not always people it could be you know sometimes it's a depression medication yeah that's right I've yeah I've I've had clients who have fought fought with all their might years and years and years. I'm not taking medication. Okay. I can't make you take medication. I can say that you're continuing to get worse and nothing is improving. Um, we've, we've done the, the physical, there's, there's nothing wrong with you. Um, from a doctor's perspective. Um, yes, there are some, you know, environmental things as there are, you know, but sometimes if you're really low, this can at least get you to a place of being able to practice some of those tools we've been talking about. Yeah, but it's always your choice. So maybe your support is in the form of a psychotropic. Yeah, that's good. And not resisting that because I should be able to figure it out. I got it myself. Nobody should be taking the psychotropic. And here's the thing. If you don't need it anymore, you don't have to take it. Don't stop cold turkey. Please consult with a psychiatrist before you do that however um if you feel like you get to a place and and life is great you don't need it anymore you can do that yeah so it's it's it's not like this constant crutch and i'm not i do not talk about medication in most instances um but and i'm not saying hey everybody go get meds but what i'm saying is it is a form of support for some people it's a good example it doesn't work for everybody yeah it doesn't work for everybody some some depression medications anxiety medications it don't work at all for people and then other folks is like their chemistry in that peel it's like the perfect harmony so it's one of those things where I think you have to think about what is my support in this situation is my support therapy is it medication is it asking my neighbor to pull my garbage can in is it it's a good one is it asking um this this parent and this group to pick my kid up on Thursday so I could stay at work a little later is it me saying hey mom can you come over and and sit with the kids on Wednesday evenings I'd like to go have coffee with a friend like what is my support what am I not tapping into the first way that you know I think is really important to get support is to notice the folks who have already offered and you've declined. When someone has said, do you need help with anything? And you've been like, no. Who was that person? Go back and call them and say, hey, last week I told you I was having a rough week and you told me to call you if I need anything. And today I am calling because I do need a distraction. Would you like to go and have dinner? Oh, that's good. That's good. That's a need. That's right. That's support. That's good. I love that. So our need is not always the obvious, right? You know, if you're like, oh my gosh, I need to organize my pantry. You can have a friend come sit with you and have some tea while you organize your pantry and you guys just chat. That's support. That's good. That's so good. There's so many different ways that we can get support from medication to therapy to just saying, can you go to a movie with me? Can you go to the movie with me? I love that. But I've noticed for me, because this is a hard one for me, and I don't know, you know, there's something I think a lot of my listeners, we're trained to be helpers, you know, we're, you know, we're therapists. So there's some of that. I think as women, sometimes, you know, we're quick to meet the needs. And it's so hard to, I've noticed I'll try to, gosh, how do I say this? I'm not sure. Tell me if this fits what you're saying a little bit, but even just challenge myself. So if I'm not getting back to texts, instead of apologizing and saying, sorry, I'm not saying I've got a lot on my plate. You know, would you would you say a prayer for me? And it's it's sort of a way of of reminding myself that I also, you know, and then inevitably because the friend doesn't know, to your point, they don't know that I the reason I'm not replying isn't just because I'm busy or or it's because I, you know, I. I just, I'm kind of dealing with something. And I maybe don't even have to go into it all, but I can just say, would you say a prayer for me? And it's just another way to kind of acknowledge a need. So I think that can be, not always feeling like I need to be the one to pray for, but just, gosh, could I, and it doesn't even have to be anything huge, you know? Yeah. I love that. Yeah, I think that's support too. I feel like the beginning of December, I was in that same space where my phone was my enemy because I just had so many school notifications for my kids. It's this week, that week, bring this to the class, volunteer here, do that. I'm thinking about like gift giving and my friends are texting me. I'm in a few group chats and it was like, I don't want this phone. I need someone to come take this phone. And so what I would do is I would finish with work and I would just set the phone in a room and I'd go back and it's all these texts. And I did have to, you know, let a few friends know, like, hey, I have been getting, I don't know what's happening right now, but I've been getting so many text messages from old people, new people about this, about that. And I've been setting my phone down because I don't even have the capacity to respond work is busy things are going on so it's not you it's definitely me and you know over the next few weeks i'll i'll be going through all this stuff but for now i just i need to not be on the phone like that's the support i need yes i don't even want to be on the phone now if you want to stop by or something like that that's great but the pinging of the phone is contributing to the problem I'm having. That's so good. Like the need I have is actually to not be your phone buddy right now. Disconnect me. Yeah. Disconnect me from the phone. Wow. That's good. That's, that's, again, there's, again, so many different ways. Again, it can be vulnerable. You don't want to, but it, it's just, it's, it's acknowledging a need. I love that. on the other side, on the practical side, what are steps we can take when we're noticing that that's such a vivid image of the movie of, you know, when we notice we are overreaching, we overfunctioning we doing things for our kids that you know there even a part of us that like I don actually need to be doing this You know I remember I had a mom once I was working with who she was a single mom and her kids would be happily playing with their friends. And she would go interrupt them to spend time with them because she was just so nervous about not being, and it was just like that over-functioning was just so over-activated. And she kind of knew it. She was exhausted, but couldn't figure out how to stop. So it could be with our own kids. It can be with spouses, friends. What are some practical steps as you've researched this and worked with people that kind of did just help us? Again, there's going to be discomfort. That's such a great word you use. It's going to feel uncomfortable. So what are some of those uncomfortable steps we can take when it comes to over-functioning and being overly maybe dependent? Yeah. So there's a chapter in the book where I talk about attachment styles, and I will just say that you are not your attachment style, but the situation that you just named sounds a lot like an anxious attachment. If I am not completely connected, I am concerned about the connection, right? Like what's happening? What are they doing? Are they okay? Am I okay? Ah, the relationship. Oh, say that again. That was so good. I'm not connected. I'm worried about the connection. Yes. When I'm not connected, I'm worried about the connection. And sometimes even when an anxiously attached person is in the connection, is it connection enough? Is the connection enough? Yes. Are they looking at me? I'm looking at them. So, you know, there's a lot of brain energy going there. And that type of attachment style does lend itself to more hyper dependence, because you need that constant connection to feel like needed, useful, loved. And I don't want to say seen because sometimes you're not being seen. It's just you're just in the relationship. Yeah. So with a, I would say overbearing parent the I would recognize the the desire that that person is trying to feel right like they're trying to in the best heart you know good-hearted way they're trying to make sure that their child is okay they're trying to reassure themselves my child is okay and so I'm going to keep checking that's the only way that's the only way I figured out how to make sure that that is possible I'm going to keep checking also I think that you have to realize you cannot ensure that for another person yeah your child could not be okay and appear to be having fun you know like there's there's so many processes happening within a person or they can be okay. And you're interrupting it and now not making it okay. You know, so now they're having a, you are the disruption and you are the problem in their, in their interaction. Um, so when we are, you know, in a dating relationship with a person and we're like, oh my gosh, I have to track them. Where are they? They said they'd be here at this time. And we notice that sort of coming up. We have to check in with ourselves. It's not always checking in with the other person. When I, when I work with couples and one of the partners is is anxious about the attachment I always say don't put that on the other person they don't have to call you five times a day they don't have to reassure you I love you I love you I love you you're giving them your anxiety work and that's not fair it's good you have to manage your anxiety you know how you manage that sitting with the discomfort of not knowing you don't know where they are right now that's okay yeah you have to do that more and more and you'll get to a place where your mind stops wondering about it but if they're constantly reassuring you you're in this reassurance loop yeah yeah i think it's very important for us to to understand the way in which we attach and connect to people and not stop there and just say like oh this is what it is because it could be different for different types of relationships. Maybe you're anxiously attached with your kid and not so much with your partner. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So really paying attention to the why of that behavior. Is it, does it have some historical context to it? Is this because, you know, your parent didn't watch you and you're trying to make sure that your kid is always okay? Or is it just something about your kid? I don't know, but I think that's worth exploring. That getting curious, what is going on inside of me here? I love that. Not outsourcing my anxiety. And it's tricky, right? Because for a lot of us, or a lot of, you know, maybe, like you're saying, maybe somebody wasn't there who should have been. You think about it. I love how you're talking about dating relationships. Maybe you were in a dating relationship where someone wasn't showing up in the ways they should have been. They were neglecting the relationship. They weren't being transparent with their love. And so you carry that into the next relationship. And again, there's no shame in that. But recognizing what of this is actually inside of me versus this other person doing something wrong. yeah yeah and we can if we have enough anxiety we can make something look like they are doing wrong right something that's that's not wrong and it's just typical behavior because it's our what our brain wants to see oh my gosh what are they over i know they're probably looking at something you know on their phone that they shouldn't be looking at it's like they're looking at cars Right. Right. You've caught them again, looking at those Mustangs. Right. It's like, yeah, our brain can bring up things that are actually not there. So it's it's our work to do. And that really impacts relationships sometimes in the connection because it doesn't feel good to be on the receiving end and be the person who's accused or the person who constantly has to reassure a person like that impacts our connection. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And that and learning if you have that fear, checking it out in a in a non in a non shaming way. That way, even if you think about that text conversation you had to have with your friends in December, I feel like I've had to have that too where like understandably, if I'm not replying to a text for a while, a friend could feel like I'm good, could read meeting into that. And if I haven't communicated, it's fair for them to say to me, haven't heard from you a while. Just want to make sure everything's okay. I'm making up a story even. And to give that person the opportunity to go, oh my gosh, no, I've just had so many things on my plate. I haven't really known how to communicate. I'm trying to get distance from my phone, whatever. Um, so, so kind of, again, and you talk about that in the book too, right? Like learning to communicate through some of this, not in a, in a shaming way or in an accusatory way, but in a, in a way that facilitates the very connection that we want, right? Because then that, then there's that clarity that actually makes us feel closer. I know, oh, you're looking at cars. Oh, sometime tell me about the cars versus the suspicion that actually takes us apart from each other. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. How do I connect over this thing versus how do I disconnect more? Yeah. What's the one thing as you've kind of immersed yourself in this in this next book that you would want the listener to take? as they're listening and thinking about their own relationships? What's sort of the one thing, I know it's hard to boil it down, but that you've really just found to be sort of something that can really begin to bring more balance and more clarity into this work? Yeah, I'd say the one thing that I hope people take away is relationships require flexibility and we have to practice new skills. We have to always be in the mindset of connection and care. Um, and, and the flexibility is not just for us, it's with other people as well. Like very often, you know, I see people like almost, um, saying that people aren't worthy because of certain personality qualities. And I think sometimes people can have a space in our life, but they may not have a large space. They might have a little bit of a corner and that's how you deal with that person. If I like to go to a coffee shop and the barista is extra chatty, maybe I don't go there all the time, but every once in a while, if they had the best coffee, I'm going to pop in there. I'm going to be like, okay, okay, I got to go, Leah. See ya. You know, so we can we can be flexible and figure out how to exist in in some of our interactions with others. I love that flexibility. I love that. The word you keep saying that I want to take I'm going to take from this is tolerance for discomfort, a little bit of discomfort here and there. It's not always easy. It's not always seamless to learn that kind of art, the flexibility of of staying with people. And also staying with ourselves. Yeah. Yeah, it is quite the art to have that level of flexibility in a relationship. And it takes a lot of practice and suffering through discomfort. Yeah, that's the reality. Well, tell our listeners, I think the book is out this week. Tell everyone where they can find you. You've got a great presence online. What are some of the other ways that people can connect with you? Yes, please check out my website, NadraTawab.com. On that site, I have worksheets. I have quizzes. I have all of my books and events that I'll be a part of listed there. And on social media, you can find me on threads, Facebook, Instagram at NadraTawab. It's great stuff. Just super helpful, practical. You just have a way of capturing the essence of this. It is messy, but it can also become more doable. We can find a way through. And I just appreciate all that you're doing to help folks. Thank you. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. 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