Inside the Mansion: Menendez Brothers & the SHOCKING Evidence Revisited

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My name is Bailey Sarian, and on Mondays, I like to sit down and talk about a true crime story that's been heavy on my knocking, and I do my makeup at the same time. On August 20th, 1989, two brothers from Beverly Hills went to the movie theater they bought tickets to see batman then they went home to find that their parents had been brutally murdered or at least that's what they told everyone but what really happened behind like those mansion walls it really shattered the the image of like this perfect american family and sparked what many say is like one of the most controversial trials in true crime history. That's what they say. So were Eric and Lyle Menendez cold-blooded killers or two broken sons pushed to the brink? Well, today we are going to be talking about the lies, the abuse, and the brutal truth behind the Menendez brothers. Oh, you've been asking for it forever. And I don't know why it took me so, well, I know why it took me so long to do this story. listen disclaimer before we get into it please be advised our episode today will get into graphic details of murder sexual and physical abuse and it can be um a little graphic so viewer discretion is advised okay look i don't know why i struggled so hard with like putting this story together this case together i think because i was like so freaking involved in it a little too involved as I usually am with all of my murder mysteries. This one was just so hard for me for some reason. Anyways, what I'm saying is I'm going to give you like the rundown at first and then we're going to get into like the truth that many didn't know about or many have forgotten, okay? So if you're like, why didn't you mention this or that? Shut up, okay? Listen. Great. Got all my notes here just in case. It was almost midnight on August 20th, 1989 in the opulent city of Beverly Hills when a 911 call came into the Beverly Hills Police Department. On the other end was the trembling voice of 21-year-old Lyle Menendez. Now usually 911 dispatchers in this area, they get calls about like fender benders or burglar alarms going off. So the dispatchers, they were a little caught off guard when they heard Lyle on the other end saying, someone murdered my parents. So within minutes, okay, the home, 722 North Elm Drive in Beverly Hills, It was filled with police officers, investigators, sirens. It was chaos. This home, it wasn't just a house. It was a freaking mansion, a sign of wealth. It's a big, beautiful, like, seven-bedroom, 9,000-square-foot Spanish-style estate sitting on a beautifully manicured lawn surrounded by palm trees. It had, like, a red-tiled roof, white stucco. It gave, like, old Hollywood glamour. An obvious sign of like money, you know what I'm saying? Now to the outside world, when you're looking at a home like that, you're like, that's the American dream. But to the Menendez family, it was home. Inside the home, the sheer scale of horror would shock like even veteran officers. The scene was very disturbing, okay? One of the investigators said, quote, I've seen a lot of homicides, but nothing quite as brutal. Blood, flesh, skulls. It would be hard to describe, especially Jose, as resembling a human that you would recognize. That's how bad it was. Jose Menendez, a powerful entertainment executive, the patriarch of this, you know, seemingly perfect family, was found in the living room. Shotgun blast to the face, okay? His wife, Kitty Menendez, she was once a beauty queen and was a homemaker. she was laying on the sofa fatally shot when investigators looked further they saw that she had like multiple wounds after she had been already killed and this was like the case for jose as well and it seemed like you know it could have been to make it appear like a mob hit or maybe they were actually more than one person involved in the shooting but there were multiple wounds and it was very intense. Like I said the scene it was it was chaotic. Officers, forensic teams, detectives were all coming inside filling the home and the question on everyone's mind was like who would do this? Why? Was it a robbery? Was it a professional hit? Why in this like fancy schmancy area would something like this happen? You know to investigators the Menendez family at least on the surface they appeared untouchable living a life of pristine privilege and this kind of violence just like did not happen to people like them or so they thought but you know as the night wore on as the days wore on investigators looked closer and their you know the focus of their suspicions would shift away from like an act of random violence a mob hit like the sons had suggested and they started to question whether it was done by the people closest to them so the murders were all over the media and like the following hours and days after the murder had happened all eyes were on Lyle and Eric Menendez you know they were just two young men they were only 18 and 21 and now suddenly orphaned in like the most brutal way imaginable and their demeanor I mean, it seemed to fit the description of grieving sons, the frantic 911 call, the tearful interviews with friends, family, and even the police. They would speak publicly to the media of just like sharing how sad, upset, the shock, just sadness, everything, you know? And everyone who was watching the newser in the Beverly Hills area was just coming in, showing their love and support for the boys who had lost their family, their parents. One of the parents' memorial services was held in Los Angeles. It was for friends and family in the industry. The family, they would hold another memorial service in Princeton, also for family. but the one in Los Angeles it was very it was very lavish Eric and Lyle you know they came dressed in their finest suits and appeared like completely heartbroken I mean it did raise a brow or two when they arrived like over an hour late but they were grieving so it was understandable at the service Lyle got up and he spoke you know kind words about his parents I guess his voice was cracking like barely making it through it was said that Eric was too upset to speak in front of everyone at the service but either way like everyone there embraced them and just felt awful for what had happened I mean it was all so tragic but then you know something started to feel off some would say a lot of the times when people are grieving they can become quiet start to withdraw but for Lyle and Eric their grief seemed different you know what I'm saying after the murders the brothers seemed to celebrate you could say by going on a shopping spree and it wasn't just like small purchases made I mean it was a big spending spree that seemed to raise a lot not a lot some red flags a few days after the murder and over like the the following months the brothers spent money they spent money lyle he had purchased a $64,000 Porsche do you say Porsche or Porsche let me know but he got a new car a fancy and a nice one and Eric got a new Jeep Wrangler. They went out, they bought Rolex watches, designer clothes, expensive jewelry. They flew first class, going on some luxurious trips. They went to Vegas. They did some high stake gambling. There was a very famous moment where the brothers got courtside seats at a basketball game between the New York Knicks and the Chicago Bulls basketball. Maybe you've seen it, maybe you haven't, but this game would like be forever remembered in a trading card from 1990 featuring one of the Knicks players. In the trading card, you can actually see the Menendez brothers sitting courtside. Yeah. And you're like, oh, shit, that's them. They were there. There was also another card that from the same game that surfaced. Either way, it was like their parents had died at their sitting courtside. It was just like, OK, OK, that's fine. But it didn't stop there. The brothers, they invested in different business opportunities. For example, Lyle, he spent $550,000 buying a restaurant in Princeton, which he named Mr. Buffalo. And for Eric, he attempted to invest $40,000 in a concert promotion company, which ended up being a con. But it didn't matter because like, you know, they're finally doing the things that they always wanted to do without anyone stopping them. So obviously the detectives are paying attention and this behavior seemed deeply, you know, suspish. Why would two grief-stricken young men just go all out like this? Meanwhile, investigators found some inconsistencies back at the crime scene. You know when it's late at night and you're shopping, you're just like bleep, blop, bloop, and you're clicking around, and then you lay your eyes on that one thing that you've been looking at it for weeks. So what do you do? You click, you add to cart, and then you realize you can't check out because you have no idea where your wallet is. You're like, what's my credit card? I don't know. Autofill? 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See less carts go abandoned and more sales go with Shopify and their shop pay button. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com slash makeup. Go to shopify.com slash makeup. That's shopify.com slash makeup. Now, the Menendez mansion was heavily secure at the time. Like the family had one of the best alarm systems on the market at the time of the murders. And the alarm, the system, the alarm systems were disarmed. And there was like no sign of forced entry into the home. even though the place inside the home and like it looked ransacked there was like very few valuables that were actually missing i mean inside there was a ton of expensive stuff but it was odd that really nothing was taken so investigators were starting to think like the house was staged to make it look like it was a home invasion Hmm. So investigators, they're going around and questioning people, you know, people who knew the family. And they found that Jose, I mean, he did have a lot of enemies. Like people really did not like this guy. At his place of work, he was said to be very cruel. He would berate people. He was just an asshole. And people told the truth. But there was this one guy that was like Jose and Kitty's friends. and this guy randomly tells police he's like I kind of have a feeling like the sons were involved he had no proof or anything just a feeling he said that something always seemed off between the boys and their parents that's all he could say but that was interesting you know so the police then discovered something odd apparently the brothers had called in a computer expert on August 31st which was like 11 days after the murder to come in and erase files that were in Kitty's computer Lyle had hired a computer expert to come over and like erase the computer files that had the new family will on it which was believed to have like left the brothers out now he Lyle like did not want those files to be found or retrieved so this guy comes over and he's like okay I'll do it whatever this guy ends up going to the police and tells them about this little situation so investigators are investigating then october 31st eric he seems to be like really struggling he was struggling with anxiety and stress after the death of his parents so he went to go see a los angeles psychiatrist named dr oziel now eric had seen dr oziel before so he was like a familiar face in you could say this time of need so eric and dr ozil they met that afternoon and decided first they met at the office and then they decided like to go on a walk around the beverly hills area so eric was like talking with dr ozil about his depression and that he wanted to end his life just stuff like that like he was really struggling so the two of them they're walking back to Dr. Ozil's office but before they return I guess Eric just stops he leaned it was said he leaned against a parking meter and just straight up said we did it we killed our parents I was like okay so Dr. Ozil's like um okay let's go back to my office so they go back to Dr. Ozil's office and that's where he's asking more questions like why why well tell me more and Eric started to share like some of the darker secrets going on in the home. But first Eric went on to explain like a little bit more about what led to the murders vaguely. So Eric was telling Dr. Ozeal that he had watched this mini-series on TV and it was about the Billionaire Boys Club. Now the Billionaire Boys Club was a real life crime story and a TV miniseries that aired in 1987 and it was about like wealthy young men in Los Angeles and they committed murder for financial gain and Eric expressed that he kind of felt inspired in a way. So after watching this little miniseries he then went to his brother and like shared his belief that their parents were going to like take them out of their will and they would no longer be receiving an inheritance so this got to the both of them both brothers talking about like how terrible their father was how he dominated their lives and that they should get rid of him kill him it sounds so simple but i guess that's it really was because they said that the brothers they thought they should kill kitty their mom because like they couldn't kill their father without killing her too and like it was like oh okay but this is like allegedly what eric told dr ozil so the brothers like talked about it they decided okay we're gonna kill our parents so eric is talking to dr ozil and he's like trying to explain they had tried to like uh purchase guns at different locations but they weren't having much luck so eric and lyle they ended up at a big five sporting goods store in san diego where they used a stolen id to purchase two mossberg 12 gauge shotguns the brothers then set up their alibis to make it seem like they had been at the movies and um this place the taste of la it's like a restaurant type thing in la i've heard of it i don't know what it is is it a restaurant it's like a restaurant type thing you go there in food or something anyways that was going to be their alibi so after shooting their parents they gathered up the shotgun casings then they drove up Mulholland Drive where they threw the shotguns down into a nearby canyon and then after they took their bloody clothes and shoes and they tossed them in a dumpster at a gas station along with like the the shell casings Eric explained to Dr. Ozeal that they didn't worry about like cleaning up their fingerprints or shoe prints because it was their home so it was kind of like already expected that their prints would be everywhere you know so eric was telling dr oziel this whole little breakdown so dr oziel was like eric you know we should call lyle right now and have him come over and and talk about this so they call up lyle and lyle comes like racing over and when he showed up he was pissed. He was pissed that Eric had told Dr. Ozil anything and allegedly had threatened to kill him, the doctor guy, if he mentioned anything about it. Dr. Ozil invited them back to his office to keep talking and you know they would share more and more dark details really giving reason as to like the why of it all. And at this point Dr. Ozil started taking more in-depth notes and also tape recording the sessions. So investigators, they were kind of struggling to get some kind of hard evidence on the brothers because they're really thinking it was the brothers. But on March 5th, 1990, they receive a very big break from Miss Judalon Rose Smith. Now Judalon, Judalon, Judalon Smith told police about the audio tapes from Dr. Ozeal's sessions with the menendez brothers where they had allegedly confessed to the murders of their parents i know who's this judalon lady well look we can have a whole conversation about judalon and dr ozil's relationship in itself because it's a whole shit show but essentially judalon she was originally seeing dr ozil for therapy and she was receiving like hypnosis sessions from him but then it evolved into a love affair now he was married at the time had a family everything and as these shitheads do he's telling judelon like all the things she wants to hear like i'm gonna leave my wife for you you're the love of my life you know just dragging her dragging her along but essentially he was fully taking advantage of her so as time went on and things were getting messy between her and Dr Oziel She really realized what the fuck was going on And she like you know what I going to police So she went to police And she told them that Dr Ozeal like had become obsessed with the brothers recording everything that they were talking about. And he was constantly trying to insert himself into their lives and then was like telling Judalon everything about it. So like bringing her into it. There was this one session where Dr. Ozeal had or asked Judalon to like come to his office while the brothers were there having a session and pretend that she was a patient waiting, just like sitting, waiting in the room. And that way, if like anything went wrong with the brothers because they were threatening to like kill him and stuff, she would be a witness and could call police. So she's like, I don't want to be involved in this, but like he's making me be involved in this. And she finally got out of that cycle. You know, she was sick of his shit and she went to police and she told them everything she knew. And this is exactly what the investigators needed and what they wanted. On March 8th, 1990, the lead detective on the case, his name was Les Zoller, he got a search warrant for Dr. Ozeal's tape recordings based on Judalon's tip. Judalon? Judalon. Judalon? Which, fun little fact slash crossover, this lead detective, Les Zoller, He was also the lead detective for the billionaire boys club case because it was a real thing. I mean, where are the odds of that? Anyhow, so they go and they get the audio tapes from Dr. Ozil. They got 17 audio tapes and seven pages of notes. And detectives, of course, they listen to the tapes and they heard all the confessions straight from the Menendez brothers mouths. It was no denying to them that like they were involved. They did it. So the same day that investigators got the tapes at 1 p.m., Lyle was flagged down by the Beverly Hills police while he was driving his, you know, his new little Jeep to the Cheesecake Factory. Not the Cheesecake Factory. Listen, he was pulled over. It was a big old scene. Arrested. It was all over the media. And he was taken into custody on suspicion of murdering his parents. Well, again, like, his arrest made news everywhere. Like, it was all over the place. and his brother Eric he was at Israel at the time for like a tennis tournament so he heard about his brother's arrest and he ended up flying back home because he didn't want to be arrested in a different country and he ended up turning himself in on March 11th so why'd they do it was it just for money was it greed I couldn't think of a better transition here so let's go back because this is where the real story comes to light that was just like the surface story to understand what really the fuck was going on you gotta go back let's go back back to the beginning it's a good song though good for her so at the center of this american dream family was jose Menendez. Now he was born in Havana, Cuba in 1944 and he arrived in the United States as a teenager in 1960 when he was fleeing the upheaval of the Cuban revolution. Now when he came, he came with little but he was determined to make something of himself okay. I will give him that. He was very determined. Now this background, it gave Jose almost like a superhuman drive like you know he was a self-made man who clawed his way to the top. Jose, he worked hard and he ended up earning a swimming scholarship to Southern Illinois University. I know it's kind of random, but his mom was like a great swimmer and she ended up in the Hall of Fame back in Cuba. He did that. Then he pursued an accounting degree from Queens College. And people, in the beginning, they seemed to really love Jose like his drive determination it made him stand out and move up the the corporate ladder very quick from working as an accountant to a corporate executive I mean he was driven then in 1971 he started working for Hertz as an executive in the car leasing division and within two years Jose was promoted to CFO at the company. And I was like, God damn, he was young too. Then in 1979, Jose, who's then 35, he became Hertz worldwide general manager. Now the next year, Jose was reassigned to one of Hertz parent companies, which was RCA Records. I know that part I was thrown off. I was like, when does that, I thought they just did Carly's senior or whatever. but one of their parent companies is RCA Records. It just felt so random, but it doesn't matter. He was reassigned to go work for RCA Records and then from there, again, he became their chief operating officer. He was just able to move quick. Jose's job at RCA Records was to sign major artists like Duran Duran, the Eurythmics, and even the boy band Menudo. Now, Jose was known for his aggressive, firm business style, saying that he always thought it was far better to be feared than loved. So, Jose, he got things done, like, no matter what the cost, and he made a fortune by, you know, doing it. By 1986, his success had moved the family from New Jersey to the Los Angeles area. first it was calabasas and then in 1988 that's when they moved to the grand mansion in beverly hills now miss kitty meow she was you know right beside jose mainly like in his shadow and that was miss kitty menendez her real name was mary louise anderson now when she was younger she had won Miss Oak Lawn Beauty Pageant and she also attended Southern Illinois University and that's where she met Jose. Now she was described as glamorous but also a bit of a quiet rebel. I was like what does that mean? I don't know but that's what they said. Now to Jose Kitty had represented the American dream that he wanted. Like you know she's an all-American beautiful blonde hair girl who was educated a beauty queen you know and to kitty jose was this hard-working man who was willing to overcome anything in order to achieve his dreams and they loved that about each other so when they met like they were inseparable now at the time um when they got together their relationship was considered very controversial because they were mixed race and they lived in a very conservative town now kitty's family they did not like jose because he was cuban and jose's family did not like kitty because her parents were divorced and again old school conservative mentality divorced no heavily frowned upon but you know they didn't care whatever and in In 1963, they eloped and they moved to New York City. So when they moved, Kitty found work as a teacher. But you know, after the birth of Lyle in 1968 and Eric in 1970, she put her own dreams aside to become like a full-time housewife. You know, dedicating her time to raising their sons. And I'm going like this. I'm going, uh, because like really she didn't want to, but like Jose really want her to be the stay at home mom And like do that whole traditional thing. Kitty had dreams to be going to like broadcasting. And work in New York and broadcasting. And stuff like that. But she gave all that up. It was said that Kitty's childhood was not great. Her father was like super abusive towards her mother and the kids. And I guess she carried that trauma with her. You know struggling with depression and resentment all throughout her life. And as you know Jose's career took off. You know what they do. Well maybe you don't. But as his career, you know, took off, he picked up some mistresses along the way. It was said he had multiple affairs, which Kitty would find out about. And it was just devastating for her. Her former psychologist would later testify that she became dependent on drugs and alcohol. She had mentioned that she wanted to end her life a couple of times, especially after she had found out about an eight-year affair Jose allegedly had with a woman in New York. So publicly, Kitty, you know, supported Jose's ambition, but privately, she was unwell. Friends actually described Kitty as Jose with a wig. Like she was just completely consumed by his vision and his goals, but she was also completely isolated and fully dependent on him. So for Lyle and Eric growing up with these parents, it was said to be very intense. Jose's drive didn't just like stop with him. He also put the pressure onto his sons. Like they were not just expected to succeed. They were demanded to excel. In Jose's eyes, you know, they were to continue the family legacy. You know that one thing that you keep saying you're going to do eventually? Yeah, that junk drawer. You want to clean that out one day. Oh, that email. You're like, yeah, it's going to take me like two to five business days to get back to that email. but I'm, yep, I'm gonna do that. Or maybe start therapy. Yeah. And every time you think about it, you're like, yeah, I'll do that, that's fine. But then you get more stressed because you're like, ugh, where do I even start? Well, that's where grow therapy comes in to make the whole thing way less overwhelming. Grow therapy makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you and not the other way around. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the United States. And they offer virtual and in-person sessions, including nights and weekends, Because let's be real, life does not stop at 5 p.m. I have a job, you know, these hours. Anyhow, you can also search based on like what actually matters to you, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can get started in as little as two days. There are no subscriptions and no long-term commitments. 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From a young age, like both boys were drilled relentlessly. Jose like managed their schedules their coaches their diets he micromanaged everything and was like pushing them to national rankings to the family or to Jose like tennis wasn't just a sport it was a non-negotiable path to a scholarship and honestly I think you know it was a way for Jose to like prove to everyone like I make winners my sons are the best it was for everyone else Lyle once told the Los Angeles Times, quote, But, you know, the pressure from Jose went way beyond the tennis court. It wasn't just about tennis. He controlled every aspect of their lives. He dictated what classes they took in school, what books they read, their social lives, who they dated, monitored their phone calls, and had almost an obsessive need to like know their every move. It was said that disappointment or like anything less than perfection was met with Jose's explosive rages. I guess he had a terrifying temper. And just the constant threat of his disapproval. He made it clear to the boys that their worth was tied directly to their achievements. Now to the outside, both Eric and Lyle, they appeared like confident athletes. But inside, internally, they were struggling. Lyle, the older brother, I guess as a child he developed a stutter, a speech impediment that would become worse under stress. It was said that his stutter was a result of his anxiety. He was often seen as like the more dominant brother. He was outspoken. He was bold. He was more willing to challenge authority, his teachers, whoever, but especially their father. According to psychologists who evaluated him later on, they said that, you know, his confidence really masked a deep insecurity. Eric, the younger brother, was considered like the sensitive, anxious, and soft-spoken one. It was said he also actually developed a stutter as a kid, and it was more severe than Lyle's. Eric was said to be shy, withdrawn, especially when his dad was around. But he really looked up to his older brother and just kind of leaned on him for any type of protection. He rarely stood up for himself. And many saw him as like the more vulnerable of the two. You know, when they went to school, I guess like the school had called up Jose and Kitty and told them that their sons were not doing well in their classes. they were having trouble focusing and like retaining information. Lyle's teachers said that he was a rule breaker. He was defiant and just moody. With Eric, he seemed to just struggle more in school than Lyle and it just seemed to make him like a target for Jose's criticism and his anger. When the school had informed Jose, you know, about their concerns with the kids, he wouldn't refuse to accept any any type of negative feedback instead jose he would like drive down to the school and he would yell at the teachers or go to whoever was in charge blaming them for the boy's poor performance that was like them as as as kids right so again like after the murders the public like saw the two grieving sons then they saw the extravagant suspenders and then it was like ew these are just two greedy selfish young men but what they didn't see was what the hell was really going on behind those mansion walls for years and finally like this all came out from eric menendez himself and the trial too sorry i'm kind of like jumping around but again after the murders eric wasn't doing well right so he goes and he talks to dr ozil so in the beginning eric was talking about the murders how it took place what i mentioned earlier that but afterwards he would continue seeing dr ozil where he shared more and more giving an answer like the motive behind it all during eric's sessions he shared more about the upbringing under Jose and Kitty and it was horrifying. It was horrifying. Deeply disturbing. Kind of like what I just mentioned like yes Kitty and Jose were strict parents but they were also just sick and abusive people which according to Eric was escalating over the years. The physical abuse was described as like a constant threat. Again Jose's temper was insane and his discipline often turned violent the brothers they would later testify that jose would hit he would hit him with like their hand or with objects and usually it was out of nowhere jose was described as having a reign of terror over the household where like his physical intimidation was a tool to enforce his absolute will both brothers described instances where jose would physically like force them to participate in tennis even if they were like badly injured or he would punish them pretty brutally if they messed up in school or again sports in any way. Now Kitty she too was accused of physical abuse. It was said like yeah she wasn't as bad as Jose but she would often slap or even just straight up punch the boys if they pissed her off. Again, Jose just like needed all control. He controlled every aspect of their lives, their friends, their clothes, their thoughts, their identities, just everything. And if they did not meet Jose's impossibly high standards, they would receive criticism, belittling, humiliation. He would pit the brothers against each other. It just seemed awful. Now Kitty, she's just like, she was just there. You know, she's I guess just overwhelmed with her own struggles. She just kind of like stood back and let Jose dominate the house. It was said that she again would participate in the physical abuse. Sometimes she would participate in the emotional abuse as well. Or she would just be absent emotionally. She was there but like she wasn't. She was checked out. But I think the most devastating and most controversial confession, the very core of the brothers defense, was the allegations of sexual abuse that the brothers received from their dad, Jose Menendez. Now, I wish we could have an honest discussion about it and like go in depth or whatever. But this is YouTube and they censor freaking everything. So, you know, this is already going to get dinged, whatever. But like, it was awful, awful. Both Lyle and Eric testified under oath that their father had sexually abused them for years, beginning when like Eric was around seven years old and continuing up right up until the time of the murders. They described a pattern of molestation, rape, forced incest, psychological manipulation that left them deeply traumatized. Now in court, Lyle had testified that Jose had performed sexual acts on him and forced him to participate in acts of incest with his brother, Eric. Yes. Now Eric's testimony was, it was really hard to hear. Just goes into great detail about the repeated sexual assaults by his father. and this was like the dark secret they claimed that had driven them to their breaking point. Now this wasn't like just their their word against you know their fathers. During the trial others had come forward to share what they knew over the years. So during the trial the boy's cousin her name was Diane she testified that when they were around eight years old her and Lyle they had a conversation where Lyle had mentioned to her that his dad had been touching or they had been touching each other down there so Diane she testified that she went and told Kitty what you know Lyle had said and Kitty just kind of brushed it off told her that like I don't need to listen to that like she didn't believe her during the trial another one of the boys's cousin his name Alan he testified saying that Jose Menendez would take showers with the boys and that Kitty would like never intervene at all like she wouldn't let him Alan near the room during those times and then another cousin sorry lots of cousins but they were all close another cousin Andy testified saying that when Eric was 13 he told him that his father was massaging his lower area but to never tell anyone about it So they all came to court to mention these things to kind of back up their claims One of the most significant pieces of evidence was a letter that Eric wrote to his cousin Andy in 1988. Now, this letter was written before the murders, okay? In the letter, it said, quote, I've been trying to avoid dad. It's still happening, Andy, but it's worse for me now. I can't explain it. He's so overweight that I can't stand to see him. I never know when it's going to happen and it's driving me crazy. Every night I stay up thinking he might come in. I need to put it out of my mind. I know what you said before, but I'm afraid. You just don't know dad like I do. He's crazy. He warned me a hundred times about telling anyone, especially Lyle. He goes on to say, am I a serious wimpus? I don't know if I'll make it through this. I can handle it, Andy. I need to stop thinking about it. End quote. Now today, this letter is considered incredibly significant because it gave, again, some evidence that the brothers weren't making up the abuse, which was what the prosecution believed. But unfortunately, the letter was not included in the original trials, but in recent years has become like a central argument for the brothers legal teams who are seeking a new trial. It wasn't included in the original trials because they didn't know about the letter. Andy, the cousin, had passed away and his I believe it was his mom when she was like going through his stuff, she found the letter and she turned it over. So further proof, decades later, new allegations came out made by Roy Roseo, a former member of the popular 1980s boy band Menudo. Now, Roy was around 13 or 14 when he met Jose. This is when Jose was like working as an RCA executive. And at this time, he was helping manage Menudo's tours. so Roy had come forward in 2023 and had testified that he too had been sexually abused by Jose when he was a teenager on numerous occasions Roy gave a detailed account saying that his manager at the time had come to him and mentioned like he would be having dinner with Jose so the manager told told Roy that he would be doing something great for Menudo and also for him so he said that like a limo picked him up and his manager and they went to Jose's house in New Jersey so when he got to Jose's house Roy said he remembered seeing two young boys it's assumed to be like it was Eric and Lyle but that they had said nothing when he walked in also Kitty was there along with Jose and Roy's manager. So then Jose offered Roy wine and told him like in a joking way like it's very expensive wine so you better drink it all up. You know Roy said that he remembered he was drinking the wine and then he just remembered like feeling really sick and then things went blurry and like he couldn't move. Then he remembers like he had these brief moments where he remembered Jose taking him to a room where then he was raped. So Roy remembered waking up. He was like back at his hotel and he was in a lot of pain and he was bleeding. And his manager said that like this was normal, not to mention it to anybody. And like, it wasn't a big deal. Now this was just one incident. There were others after that. Roy's allegations, you know, they came long after the trial. but it provided like a third-party account of Jose's predatory behavior. And it really just added weight and credibility to the brother's claims. I used to treat bras and underwear like an afterthought. Like whatever was clean, like whatever was available, you know, you just put it on, hoping for the best. 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So listen, don't let uncomfortable underwear ruin your vibe. Skims solves that. Trust me, once you try it, there's no going back. Shop my favorite bras and underwear at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the drop down menu that follows. And if you're looking for the perfect gift for your Valentine or even maybe, I don't know, for yourself, the Skims Valentine's shop is now open. So where was Kitty in all this, you know? While the brothers testimony didn't just like implicate Jose, they also kind of showed a disturbing side of Kitty as well. They said that not only was Kitty aware of Jose's abuse, but that she would either participate in it or at the very least, she failed to protect them. Lyle had testified that Kitty was present during some of the sexual abuse, at times even joining. Eric said if she wasn't participating she would be in the next room while like he was being abused making sure like no one would enter the room both of them also said that Kitty was involved in covering up the abuse threatening the boys to like never speak about it to her it was all about maintaining the public the family's public image over everything and again like this just added another layer of trauma for Lyle and Eric who said they felt betrayed obviously by both parents which made them feel trapped desperate and unable to escape. So Eric and Lyle said that the Wednesday before the murders they had confronted their parents about the abuse. They're grown now and they were ready to confront them. So they go and they ask their mom like why are you allowing it to happen in the first place and then they tell their parents like you know we're gonna we're gonna tell everyone the truth and what's really going on according to Lyle Jose told him that whatever he did with his son was like none of his business and to just stay out of it in the heat of the moment or whatever uh Jose then would like I guess he threatened to kill them or just get rid of them if they spoke out or mentioned anything about it. And I guess according to them, all Kitty said was that Eric was lying, that they were just lying. It was said at this moment, the boys believed that their lives were in danger. Now, when all of this came out in court, the perception of the Menendez family, it just really turned upside down, right? Again, from the outside, in the beginning, it was like, oh my god, they're the victims of this horrible crime but when Lyle and Eric's testimony came out in court people were now seeing them as victims of decades of horrendous abuse which is what led them to make the decision to kill them and it was not because of greed it was from fear this was the abuse defense and it would be a very big deal it would send shockwaves through the legal system and even the public So with the allegations of abuse now out there, the defense team, the people who represented Eric and Lyle, their attorneys, Leslie Abramson and Jill Lansing, they face the task of trying to convince the jury that these two young men, who, yes, brutally killed their parents, were not just killers looking for a payout, but instead were terrified victims pushed to their limit. And the defense team leaned heavily on a pretty groundbreaking legal concept at the time. Battered child syndrome. So battered child syndrome is a psychological and medical term used to describe the physical and emotional symptoms that are experienced by children who have suffered prolonged abuse. Often, you know, at the hands of like their parents or guardians. Now it's said like children who are subjected to this physical, emotional, sexual abuse for long periods of time, they can develop a profound sense of helplessness, fear, and a distorted perception of reality. Like they're living in a constant state of terror and believing that escape is impossible. And the child on the receiving end, you know, it can lead to extreme actions. So in the 1960s, battered child syndrome was formally recognized mainly in like pediatric medicine, then later evolved into a legal defense in criminal cases. So Eric and Lyle's team argued that the brothers suffered from this and genuinely believed that their lives were in danger from Jose. You know, they had claimed that Jose had threatened to kill them multiple times and that the sexual abuse was just getting worse and worse and it was becoming unbearable. And this led to the legal argument of imperfect self-defense. I know it's a lot of terms, but listen. Imperfect self-defense is different from traditional self-defense because it comes into play when like the defendant genuinely believes but unreasonably believes that they are in imminent danger and will act to protect themselves. I'm getting tongue-tied over here. The key word though here is unreasonably. Even if Jose wasn't actively attacking them at the moment of the murders, the defense argued that years of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse had created a reasonable fear of death or severe bodily harm. Complicated a little. Not really, but kind of, you know? The legal jargon. Again, according to like Lyle and Eric, every day was a threat. Every moment in Jose's presence like felt like it was just a ticking time bomb. The defense claimed that they had no other way out. It was not about getting their parents money, but rather like it was just an act of survival. Jose was well connected. He was very powerful. And the brothers were terrified of what would happen if they did try to like seek help. Now, the prosecution's claims were very simple. The brothers planned to kill their parents and inherit their wealth. They killed because of greed. Point blank period. So by the time Lyle and Eric Menendez were arrested, it was like again in March of 1990. It was about seven months after the murders. The story, it was all over the media. People were invested. But it was during their trials, mainly the first one, that the Menendez case turned into a media circus. It was a perfect storm in a way. Court TV had launched in 1991 and it gave, for like the first time, live coverage of high profile cases and like showed courtroom footage live on television. This was all brand new. So for the first time, people could actually watch criminal proceedings on TV. And the Menendez trial became one of their biggest attractions. In the beginning, I think people were interested in it because it was like, oh, like two spoiled rich kids who murdered their parents for their money, you know. And that's what a lot of people really believed. I mean, at first. I mean, the spending spree, the fancy cars, the Rolex watches, designer clothes, gambling trips, it didn't help. It was easy for like everyone to think that these brothers were just entitled and would do anything to feed their greed. And the media was running headlines like about the billionaire boys and killer sons, just all with that same narrative. But then when the first trial started and the defense like unleashed their allegations of decades of physical, emotional and sexual abuse, you know, from Jose and Kitty, the story shifted from greed to, oh my God, what? The first trial was an emotional roller coaster. I mean, largely thanks to Lyle and Eric's defense strategy. Now, during the trial, they really put the Menendez family like itself on trial, alleging a history of abuse, you know, so bad that it drove the brothers to murder. The defense team, most notably Leslie Abramson, she represented Eric. She presented the evidence of battered child syndrome. Now, this was like the first time a lot of people were even hearing this term. It was like, what? Again, key testimonies came from the brothers themselves, who they went into very awful details of Jose's physical and emotional torment and the long history of alleged sexual abuse. psychologists and like experts on abuse they had testified about the psychological impact of like the trauma that the boys allegedly I have to say allegedly received just reinforcing the defense's claim of imperfect self-defense now it's like one thing when you hear like me talking about it like they mentioned sexual abuse and all this stuff but when you watch the testimony and you watch both Eric and Lyle on the stand you're like oh like there's no way they're making this this up there's just no there's no way there's no way they're making it up that's what I'm going to say about that did you cry yes did you bleed yes I just told him I don't I don't I just told him that I didn't want to do this and that it hurt me. What do you believe was the originating cause of you and your brother ultimately winding up, shooting your parents? Me telling. You telling what? me telling lyle that uh you telling lyle what my dad my dad had been molesting me but the prosecution they fought back so they dismissed the abuse claims They were saying it was fake. They called it, quote unquote, abuse, excuse, you know, a convenient lie invented after the fact to avoid responsibility. And like their argument was clear. The motive for the brothers was greed, pure and simple. And anyone who thought otherwise was dumb. Period. I mean, the prosecution, they really just highlighted and focused on the planning of the killings, the shotgun blasts at close range, the way that the brothers had initially tried to cover up the crime, and of course, that post-murder spending spree. So the prosecution, they had painted Jose as a driven but loving father and Kitty as a caring, loving mother, arguing that the brothers, you know, their claims were just outrageous lies designed to manipulate the jury. They focused really on like emphasizing the brutality of the killings. And their whole thing was like, there is no amount of past abuse that could justify such a cold-blooded act. But Eric Menendez, you know, he gave a testimony. He was like up there kind of like sometimes sobbing. He's very tearful. And he talked about the abuse and like that was very, it was very impactful. while on the stand he cried while describing like in awful detail what his father did to him throughout the years and a lot of people watching listening whatever they really felt his pain and the amount of detail he went into it was really hard to believe that like this was all made up when Lyle took the stand he was received a little bit differently because he was like a little bit more calm some called him stoic he seemed to be like more in control of his emotions some people interpreted this as like him being calculated because he wasn't as emotional and convincing like Eric was but you know other people disagreed saying like it was a sign of deeper emotional suppression now again because all this was on live tv it was like every sigh every tear every cough every movement was scrutinized and it was just a national obsession After months of testimony and intense deliberation, it kind of honestly seemed like the jury was leaning in the brother's favor. But the outcome blew everyone away. The juries were deadlocked. Each brother was tried by a separate jury. So Lyle's jury was hung 8 to 4 in favor of a lesser charge of manslaughter. And Eric's jury was split 10 to 2, also favoring manslaughter over murder. In other words, they couldn't agree and this meant a mistrial. Frustrating, but at the same time it seemed like a pretty profound moment because it meant that like, while the defense's abuse claims were considered controversial, it gave enough reasonable doubt to prevent a murder conviction. So it was seen as like a partial victory for the brothers. but the downside it also meant that they would have to do this all over again in another trial now the second trial because i do it all over again was presided over uh by this judge named stanley stanley weisberg this trial would be dramatically different now i guess the judge had like he watched the first trial and was not a fan he made a critical ruling for this new trial limiting the amount of abuse evidence that could be presented to the jury. And it's like, what? That was kind of like their whole thing. His reason though? Well, the judge believed that the defense had gone too far and had turned the trial into a quote unquote circus and focused too much on character assassination rather than giving direct evidence of self-defense when the murder happened. The judge said that the graphic and extensive details of past abuse were not directly relevant to the legal definition of imperfect self-defense. So the judge's decision to not allow this information into the new trial heavily impacted Eric and Lyle's team, you know, to fully present their case and like really limited their ability to tell the jury the why of it all. So the second trial starts up, you know, and the prosecution, they double down on the motive of greed. Instead, they focused on the planning the brothers did before the murders, the weapons, the spending spree, and the lack of immediate threat to the brothers at the time of the murders. They portrayed the brothers as calculating liars who were manipulative and invented a story to escape justice. and Eric and Lyle team I mean they struggled They really did They didn really have a good defense because their defense was not allowed in court So after months of testimony and just two days of deliberation on March 20th, 1996, the jury came back with a verdict. Lyle and Eric Menendez were both found guilty of two counts of first-degree murder along with conspiracy to commit murder. Without the emotional testimonies about the abuse, I mean, the prosecution's simple, direct case of, here's what the brothers did the day of the murders, period, it had won the jury over. On July 2nd, 1996, both brothers were given the maximum sentence, two consecutive life terms in prison without the possibility of parole. They would be spending the rest of their lives behind bars. Now the public's reaction, very mixed. Many saw it as a win because they fully believed in the like greedy rich kid, you know, narrative type of thing. But for many others who fully believe like the abuse claims, it was really a heartbreaking moment. So 25-year-old Eric and 28-year-old Lyle would die behind bars. Lyle was sent to Mule Creek State Prison in Northern California and Eric was sent to Pleasant Valley State Prison it was like 500 miles away they were separated because the courts didn't want the brothers communicating with one another Lyle called the separation quote-unquote tremendously painful and Eric he went on like a hunger strike in attempt to stay with his brother for over two decades they were kept apart and the only contact that they had was like through letters or indirect communication through their family. Now while they've been incarcerated they've both embarked on paths of personal development and in some ways redemption. Both would end up getting married while incarcerated. Lyle's first marriage ended in divorce but they got marriage yay. Lyle got a bachelor's degree in sociology while in prison and is pursuing a master's degree. I know I was like I guess prison is the only place you can give free education and health care lol. Lyle served in the inmate government for 15 years and I was like what how to look this up and it's a structured system within a prison that allows the inmates to participate in like decision making related to their daily lives the institutional operations and peer representation i was like what it's like a student council i guess yes and it was said that lyle has worked on prison reform while incarcerated For example, he has taken active roles in improving prison conditions, advocating for inmates' rights, helping implement programs that support rehabilitation, education, and community building behind bars. I was like, damn, good for him. I didn't even know they had all these things going on. Eric, while in prison, has become deeply involved in religious studies, I guess leading Bible study classes, and even becoming a minister. It's said that Eric worked with terminally ill inmates through like a hospice program, which like would provide comfort and end of life care for inmates. I know I was learning all this like, wow, I didn't actually know they did all this like in prison and whatnot. Eric also became an advocate for child abuse survivors. So like he would mentor fellow inmates with similar trauma and like contribute to awareness efforts behind bars. So both brothers have participated in support groups for other prisoners who have gone through sexual abuse, channeling their own experiences into helping others. They have often been described as model inmates. They've had good behavior and they've been just participating in rehabilitative programs. Throughout the years, both brothers have tried to appeal but have been constantly denied. And for the most part, the world just really moved on, right? and it seemed like their fate was sealed. That was that. But you know, unless you've been living under a rock in recent years, the Menendez case has had a dramatic resurgence in public interest. This attention has come from, you know, the true crime community, people on social media having discussions about older cases with now like grown, fresh eyes. Love it or hate it. I know a lot of people did not like it, but the Netflix drama series it was called Monsters the Lyle and Eric Menendez story it was a dramatization of the story and a documentary from the brothers that followed it really brought the case to like a new generation of viewers many of whom didn't know or even understand the full scope of the abuse allegations and to many like hearing this for the first time was shocking and it really got the conversation going. Just again like reigniting the sympathy towards the brothers and a lot of people were looking at the trials like what the hell was that about? What? Yeah it was just it's been in the conversation. All the public conversations and debate online has coincided with the new legal efforts by the brothers defense teams. So the brothers have a new legal team and they have filed a habeas corpus petition or petitions on the brother's behalf. A habeas petition is essentially like a legal way for someone in prison to be like hey the court got it wrong here's new evidence or proof that my rights are violated and I deserve another look at my case. So their attorneys are arguing that their detention is unlawful due to the heirs errors errors in their original trial and newly discovered evidence the new evidence being what i mentioned earlier eric's uh 1988 letter to his cousin andy that was written months before the murders you know and where he kind of like talked about the ongoing sexual abuse On top of that, the allegations affidavit from the Menudo member, Roy. Yeah, remember? He came forward sharing his sexual abuse by Jose Menendez in the 1980s. They did all the math and based off of his allegations, like where Jose was at the time and where Menudo was at the time, like it correlates. It's credible, okay? Because people were trying to say like, why is he coming forward now? I hate that shit. Anyways, but that's like new evidence. The defense argues that this evidence, if it were presented to a jury today, would most likely lead to a different outcome, potentially like a manslaughter conviction. In October 2024, the Los Angeles District Attorney's Office started reviewing the case, acknowledging the, quote, complexities surrounding the sexual violence end quote and the brothers continuous rehabilitative efforts rehabilitative why are words so hard for me anyways but the former uh district attorney initially like showed a willingness to recommend a resentencing or even like a new trial and it was like kind of looking like that was going to happen but then things changed los angeles they got a new district attorney his name Nathan Hockman and he felt different. This Nathan Hockman opposed a new trial saying that the brothers have not shown full accountability for their lies and deceptions and he was not for a second chance. But on May 13th, 2025, a Los Angeles Superior Court judge, Michael Jessick, I think is his name, formally resentenced Lyle and Eric Menendez anyways. So their original sentencing was like life without parole. It was reduced to 50 years to life. So the judge had acknowledged like the horrific nature of the crime, but also highlighted the brothers' significant rehabilitative efforts during their 35 years in prison. And he stated that while he wasn't saying they should be released, instead he was saying like they had done enough to get that chance at a parole hearing also because both of them were under the age of 26 years old at the time of the crime this new sentence makes them immediately eligible for parole under california's youthful offender laws listen California's youthful offender law gives people who committed serious crimes before the age of 26 a chance at an earlier parole hearing. The idea is that young people's brains aren't fully developed, so they may be more capable of change and that the system should take that into account. Now, this hearing is believed to take place in August of this year, 2025. five so again it might bring them one step closer to like potentially walking free well this case at the core lie like two conflicting narratives on one side the prosecution's portrayal of Lyle and Eric Menendez as just cold calculating greedy sons who gunned down their parents for a multi-million dollar inheritance and then staged like a lavish display of fake grief and spending which led to their first three murder convictions and then on the other side the defense account of two deeply traumatized young men victims of years of sexual or severe physical emotional and sexual abuse at the hands of not just like any person but their own parents you know the very powerful jose menendez and then they're in my opinion kind of like she seemed like a shit mom kitty menendez and this is what makes the menendez case like so i don't know if complex is the right word interesting i don't feel like that's the right word either but i don't know but now with like this new evidence that came out i mean eric's letter and roy's allegations it like it definitely challenges the verdicts i mean after all these years people still i mean people still are talking and really asking the question like are Lyle and Eric Menendez guilty like truly guilty of just first degree murder cold-blooded murder or were they victims of awful abuse pushed to a breaking point and deserving of like a different outcome beyond the Menendez case though it's definitely led to like bigger conversations being had and really like putting a spotlight on the you know often hidden reality of child abuse even within wealthy seemingly perfect families and just really like taking down that that myth that these things only happen in certain demographics this case also got people talking about the justice system's handling of abuse claims especially when the victims are male who historically have faced greater skepticism and difficulty in coming forward and speaking out because a lot of people just don't take it seriously. I think as the years have gone on you know people society whatever have come to like understand the long-term psychological effects of trauma you know and what it can do to a person and how it just can destroy them and even influence their actions years later. And that is the Menendez case, really. I left a lot out. Okay, yes, I know. But like for the most part, that's it. Now, I never wanted to do this story because I too was one of those people who didn't really know anything about this case at all. I only heard about it. I don't know. But I thought they were just spoiled rich kids who wanted their parents' inheritance. Like, that's it. And then I watched that Netflix dramatization one. Again, a lot of people didn't like it. And that's okay. You're allowed to not like it. But when I watched it, I was like, is this true? Is this really what happened? Like, even if a fraction of that was true, I was like, what the fuck? So then I went onto YouTube and they have all of like, you can watch the whole trial online. And I was like, oh my God, like a lot of it is true. A lot of it is true. And when you watch the Menendez brothers giving their testimony, it's hard to not believe what they're saying. I mean, I don't know why people would even think otherwise. It's just like, wow, wow, they were fucked up by their parents. And that's the tricky part. Does that mean that you can get away with killing people? know I think you still have to um pay the price for murdering and blowing someone's head off but you know that's where I think people I think that's where everyone struggles I don't know we'll see what happens really I feel bad yeah I don't know that's anyways thoughts I don't know I mean we'll see what happens okay friends hi it's me again I hope you enjoyed the episode and like i was saying before i recorded today's episode before the parole hearings before the judge's ruling on the habeas petition and a lot has happened honestly i i thought like for sure they were gonna get out of prison no so eric and lyle's parole hearings were handled separately but they did share like a lot of the same witnesses on august 21st 2025 five eric had his um his hearing and um he was denied parole the parole board said that his past criminal record meaning his burglaries before the murders his prison rule violations throughout the years like having a cell phone um and other things plus his lack of empathy and reason shown when murdering his mother were all the reasons as to why they felt he was not ready to be released. The next day, it was Lyle's turn to face the parole board. A couple of hours after the hearing started, the Department of Corrections mistakenly, quote unquote, handed over audio recordings from Eric's hearing to the press which you shouldn't do that okay and I you know it spread like wildfire clips of Eric talking about what they did why they did it and if he regretted it like had spread all over the news and social media this leak was a clear violation of the parole board standard practices and it just doesn't seem like like an easy mistake to make it kind of feels like it was done on purpose okay let's be real Lyle's attorneys accused the department of corrections of releasing the recordings on purpose to like I don't know cause a spectacle and it did several family members who testified for Eric and were like supposed to testify for Lyle ended up backing out because they were afraid that they were going to be dragged into this media circus once again. Lyle's attorneys tried to get the hearing rescheduled because of the situation, but the deputy commissioner of the parole board decided to move forward like anyway. In the end, Lyle was also denied parole for prison rule violations like having a cell phone. I guess he was showing antisocial personality traits. He had been deceptive and was minimizing his actions. And he had like a lack of quote unquote full insight of his criminal actions by lying to avoid consequences. That was their reasoning as to why they denied his parole. his parole the deputy commissioner told lyle that you know the board they they found him to be genuine and remorseful but there were certain things he needed to work on and to not lose hope because in a couple of years when he they're up again for parole he could still get out as long as you know he follows all the rules and doesn't get into trouble so a little motivational speech there so that's the parole but there's also been movement on the habeas petition so the superior court judge who was reviewing those like new pieces of evidence like the letter and roy rosello's interview this judge believed that this did warrant like a re-examination of you know the case but the LA district attorney disagreed and said that none of the new evidence was relevant and that it lacked credibility the DA said that it lacked credibility because it was never mentioned in court by Eric or the cousin and that all of like Roy's interview all it did was confirm that Jose was an abuser but it didn't change the fact that they the boys were not in imminent danger when they killed their parents. Then on September 15, 2025, about six weeks after reviewing the petition and the DA's response, the judge denied the brother's habeas petition. He said the new evidence somewhat supports the brother's claims of sexual abuse, but that like didn't change the fact that, you know, they planned the murders beforehand. so now what well as of right now Eric and Lyle will be able to try for parole again in about three years there is a chance that if the brothers follow like the rules that you have in prison and have good behavior their next hearing date could be moved up to like a year from now and the only other option for Eric and Lyle would be if the California governor pardoned them and I just don't know if that's on the agenda as of right now you know but if he did that he would basically like wipe their slate clean and or he could like uh reduce their sentence again but again I don't think that's high priority with what's all going on right now I think a lot about the the Manana's Brothers uh episode especially because like so much was left out and I did see a lot of people online like well why didn't you mention this why didn't you mention that and it was like well if I did it would it would have been like a fucking week-long episode but um overall I just feel like with the Menendez brothers like that story is just so fucked up the abuse if you watch like the court trial and like um if you watch them testify the brothers on on the stand it's hard not to believe that their dad and their mom were very fucked up you can't murder someone and just like get away with it but at the same time like maybe it was that was their only way out you know what I'm saying so or I don't know I felt really bad for them even if uh yeah it's just sad I think eventually they'll get out but we'll see I guess I guess I will say this Eric and Lyle's lawyers and family members they continue to speak up about their case and they seem to be using every single possible avenue to fight for their release. And I think one day, I think it's going to happen. I don't know when though. Anyways, thank you guys so much for hanging out with me today. I hope you have a good rest of your day. You make good choices and I'll be talking to you guys later. Goodbye. you