Kenny Lofton Breaks Down Hall of Fame SNUB, 90's Indians UNTOLD STORIES, Arizona Hoops

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. Welcome back to all the smoke dug out here with my co-host, CY. Good to see you. Hey, appreciate you having me. Flight good. Flight was good. Good. Nice and easy. Man, today we have a legend. Someone I've actually been chasing. I've been chasing him down for him and you know, he's still fast. He's a little older, but he's still fast. One of the best athletes in MLB history should be a Hall of Famer. We're going to get into that. One of the greatest leadoff hitters in Major League Baseball history. Also played a little bit of hoop. We're going to get into that. A true icon, six-time All-Star, five-time stolen base champ, four-time gold glove winner. Welcome to the show, Kenny Lofty. Thank you, bro. Thank you, bro. Welcome, man. Welcome to the line. Kenny, Kenny, Kenny. Hello, G. Yeah, yeah. CY, what's this man mean to the game? Oh, man, when I think of 90s, that's when you think about the era of your sport, you think about when you were a kid growing up and when you're picking your grades, you normally go to that time in your life. You normally ain't going to when you was playing, you're going to when you were a fan of the game growing up. And for me, when you go into the 90s, talking about leadoff hitters, two names come up. Heyman Ricky. Ricky Henderson, Kenny Lofton. Very different styles of play, but I really believe that one player got their flowers and the other player never got their flowers. I'm so excited to have you on the show today, K. Low, because I want to dig into it. It's so much even prepping for this that I didn't know about you. Okay. You feel like you know the OGs in the game. You feel like you know all the stories and you start to dig into it a little bit. And you be like, man, how do I be kicking it with Kenny for years? And I never knew this, this, this or that. But man, first of all, I appreciate you joining us here today. Thank you. Thanks for having me, man. I appreciate you guys. And Matt been trying to get me in this for a while now. And like you said, I finally slowed down for a second and you caught me. Well, I guess I think we got to get right into it. Okay. Because this may be a strong statement for some, but I feel like you're the biggest number of all time of all time. When I think of players who should be in the hall, there's a few guys that come to mind. Some guys have, you know, it may be some ties to steroids. It may be some ties to not being good with the media, whatever it may be. I understand some of those stories, but for yours, I can't make it make sense. I can't make it make sense when you look at the numbers, look at your contributions to the game. If you had to put your finger on one thing that didn't get you to vote. I mean, you're talking about one year in, you got less than 5% to where you were one and done in 2013 on the ballot. What's the one thing that stood out to you on why you feel like you didn't pass that threshold? For me, I just believe it was the game became all about home runs. So I think if I was a home run hitter, they would have looked at me different because I don't hit home runs. They kind of push you aside and they put you as an afterthought. And I learned that trying to get a contract in the game, you know, trying to get a contract, they compared me to Barry Bonds, you know, and Sammy Sosa. I'm like, how can you compare me to these guys? Because that was what they were looking for. And they didn't look at RBIs. They didn't look at a guy getting on base, creating havoc. I mean, I was a guy who had Carlos Baerger, Albert Bell, Jim, Tommy, Maddie Ramirez on, you know, Eddie Murray, hitting behind, you know, hitting behind me. And they always talk about Jim, told me they always talk about RBIs. You can't get a RBI by solo. You have this call runs bad at it. And I felt like they kind of took that and pushed it aside, but gave them glory for their homers and their RBIs. But they didn't say, well, how did you get those RBI? Somebody had to be on base. It was on base. Even though you didn't drive the ball out the yard, there were still so many contributions. You're talking about gold glove center fielder. You're talking about multiple time leading the league and stolen bases. Do you feel like there wasn't a trade off that the league appreciated at the time to where it's like, okay, he doesn't do this, but he's the best at doing this? No, they didn't look at it that way. They only looked at it as. This is what we're looking at home runs and RBIs. And that's the sad part for me. I had to deal with that. I had to look at myself. Do I want to be selfish or do I want to take one for the team? And I felt like I took it for the team instead of being selfish and looking back at it. I should have been selfish to be honest. I should have got on base and stole every base I can and didn't try to work to count as a lead off hitter. They tell you want to be a lead off hitter, but when you come to Hall of Fame, they don't say, we got to look at the best lead off hitters. No, they say, did he get 3000 hits? Did he have so many RBIs that he had 500 home runs? That's kind of how they look at it. And I'm just got to sit back and say, well, I'm sorry, I wasn't that guy. And as you're looking at the game now, the game has gone back to a more athletic play. You see guys being valued that are putting a bat on the ball. You see guys getting their flowers for going out there and being able to steal 50 bases in the season. These are things that you've been doing. But under the curtain, what really was going on, which everybody knows the 90s. It was a steroid era. And you were playing in the midst and the height of the steroid era to where every every number that was happening around you was inflated. So that leaves me to ask for you to say that you wish you would have been selfish. Did you ever have a moment that you thought, man, these guys doing it, I ain't getting my flowers like I should be. Is this something I should dabble in? Is this something that maybe I should consider doing as well and trying to become a powerheader? No, I never thought about that because I knew the long term effect. I knew the outcome that it could it was it was not good. But I think the only thing I could have done because in my position, what I did in the game, only one way you can get it to the Hall of Fame is 3000 hits. That's it. All the other stuff around the game that you did, they push it aside. They don't even really talk like you said, you talk about all the things you were talking about, they don't really talk about that. They only talk about if you got 300 hits, I mean, 3000 hits or 500, you know, home runs. And for me, like I said, as a leadoff hitter, I would say I'll use a guy like NoMar Garshapar. That dude swung at every first pitch that looked good to him and he got hits. Derek Jeter did the same thing. So for me, if I would have looked at it as because again, you know, as a leadoff hitter, that first pitch, they throw it right down the middle and a lot like Shohei Otani, that first pitch, he hits it out the ballpark because it's right down the middle. So for me, I'm taking that pitch for the team. I could have said, you know what, that first pitch that I like, I'm taking it. And then just to give some color to what you're saying, because I know exactly what you're talking about. And what he's saying, Matt, is it was so much strategy within the game of baseball to where if you're a leadoff hitter, and let's say you're the home team, the other, your pitcher that's out there on the mound, he goes out there, he throws 30 pitches that in. You the leadoff hitter, it was almost mandatory that you take that first pitch to give that pitcher who's now sitting on the bench a little extra time to get himself together, to rest. Or you may be thinking about that number two hitter in the lineup to where you're leading off. You're like, all right, let me take a few pitches so I can let the second guy be ready to hit or I can gain information and I can go back into the dugout and tell everybody else what this guy has. Because if I go out there and swing in first pitch in the time it was looked at as being selfish. So in your mind, you feel like you're being an unselfish player. Yeah, I was unselfish, but when I looked at it at the end, unselfish in the game of baseball didn't get you nowhere. All right. Well, I think when you're saying getting, getting nowhere, it's not so much that, that you didn't get into the hall. Well, I'll say, I'll say this way, the players respected what I did. Oh, absolutely. For sure. But outsiders, they just look at your numbers. Game recognized game. And when you're talking about the players, like I was saying, it, it, it didn't stand out to me that you didn't get in the first year. It's the fact of what the voting was. Like I saw a clip that popped on my social media one day and it was a side by side of you and each row. And if we could pull that up here, this is it right here. Matt, so check this out. When you're looking at side by side careers, and to be clear, as I'm asking this question, this is not to put a knock on each row in any form or fashion. It's more to just look at the comparisons of a career. Kenny Lofton is on the right right here. And you're looking at all the things that he excelled at, arguably even more so than each row. And one guy, Matt, is one vote away from being unanimous, which is each row, to where he's Hall of Fame. First ballot should have been unanimous. People are upset at the one person that didn't vote for him to where each row even says it in his speech to whoever that one person is that didn't vote for me. Like shame on you. And then the guy on the right side who has that career is one and done and not even able to be on the ballot next year. When you saw that, and I know you saw this exact same clip right here, what went through your mind? It's not fair. That's the first thing that came up to me. This is not fair, but you can't, you know, I'm one of those guys that, you know what, you put your chin up, you keep it moving. But I felt like I did what I had to do on the field and I put up those numbers. So all I could do is look at it and say, wow. But also, and the good thing that makes me feel good about it every time I look at that. And all the time players who played the game, they all tell me, Kenny, you should be in the Hall of Fame without a doubt. I mean, guys who are in the Hall of Fame now, guys who are played against. And, and there's one thing that always pops up to my mind when I think about what I felt I did for the game or so we're playing the 1995 World Series. David Justice came into me, he said, Kenny, we had a meeting. It was one of the quickest meetings we had in the game. They said, if we keep Kenny Lofton off the base, we going to win the World Series. So he said, that was their plan. He said, it came on nobody else. If you keep him off the base, we win the World Series. He said, that was their strategy. So I felt good that I had that much impact to an opposing team that that was their strategy. Can you guys break down because obviously this is a new space. I'm stepping in as much as I love the game. How so he didn't get the 5% vote. Is there a way for him to get back on the ballot now or is he out for good? Well, that's another thing behind that. So the thing about what happens here, the media picks who gets, you know, so guys that can't tie a chew gum and tie your shoes at the same time. Well, no, I'm going to give them a little bit of credit. When I came in the year I came out was the year of the guys who were potentially in the steroid situation. So just say you had eight to nine guys in the steroid situation, right? You had the media had 10 votes. So each media had 10 votes and the guys who put up numbers on the steroid, they put up the numbers because they put up those numbers and they were kind of caught up in that steroid situation. So each one of those guys had to vote and because they didn't know how to go about the steroid situation, those guys gave them a vote and then they only had so many votes for guys who were on their way up the scale of getting in. They had to figure out how to vote for them as well. So you had potential steroid situation plus guys who were working their way up to get in, they had to vote for them. So that believes myself, I'm kind of stuck in their vote pattern because they had to make sure that situation with the steroid guys, they had to put them in. They had to keep voting for them somehow. Can we agree, although it was the steroid era that that was the greatest era of baseball, do you guys feel that way as players or one of the greatest eras of baseball? That's what I grew up on. That's my original introduction to the game. As a fan of the game was the Marc McGuire and Sammy Sosa battle to where that was the only battle that I remember to where they would break away from normal television to go to the attack. It was also the must watch TV. I don't recall respectfully, a time where we're hurrying home from school or whatever the situation may be and we got to watch these games. I mean, the games were electrifying, exciting. I mean, and you were right in the mix, although you weren't hitting the home run, your name was still right in the mix. And as you just pointed out, I mean, a team strategy to win the World Series was to keep to shut you down. Yeah. I mean, I just feel like, and that's what I was saying before. For me, how I'm looking at the game of baseball, I'll say in the Hall of Fame or how they kind of looked at baseball as, you know what, it's about home runs. So, and that's what gets me get pushed way down the side, get down the line. Because when you talk about baseball, they talk about home runs. They don't say I want the guy know how to bunting wherever he wants to back the bun up and he can steal the base of second, third home. They don't talk about that. They don't always talk about guys. Because again, I felt like for me as a guy in the outfield, if I didn't get a hit, you ain't getting a hit. That's what my mindset was. So my outfield play was stopping them from getting a hit. But people didn't look at that. But for me, the good thing that feel good about me when they start calculating the word war, you're up there and see how my numbers was. And they even showed a thing this year about the guys who they put in the Hall of Fame. And they talked about the guys who were on the list. And they put me on the list where the list of would have been or whatever. They had two players in front of me, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens. I was third behind those two in war of people there trying to decide and say veterans of coming in the Hall of Fame. I was number three. Is there a way to get back? So you're saying that it's up to the media to be able to get you back on the ballot? So the tough part about it, they keep changing the situation with the go post. You got the executive committee now. Well, no, it's the veterans committee. And the veterans committee, they used to do it every year. Now is every three years. So like I didn't get in this past year, I got to wait three more years for me to even get on. It's a board, an eight panel board that they put eight players that the media chooses to put on that board. So once they get on that board, then that committee votes on that. So and I think it's 12 players, two executives and two media. And that's the hope is that you have this board that's not just the writers, Barnes. You have players, you have coaches, you have a former front office executive that'll all be on that board to where you hope to try to get the people in, get the players in through that they felt missed. Because what it comes down to is Kalo getting knocked out on that first ballot, especially with the way that players are analyzed now. If you just get through the first, hit that threshold, hit that 5%, you start to see those percentages rise. You're in and you're out because some guys start falling off the ballot. You start to make more room to where you start to look at the grouping of players. Now all of a sudden Kalo is not getting compared to all the guys that he was originally getting compared to, which improves his chances of being in. But hopefully, as we close out the hall conversation, hopefully you get your flowers, you deserve it. It keeps the conversations going to where people will start to look at the numbers. But to lead off hitters of today's game, I guess we'll roll it into that. The all new, all electric Toyota CHR Plus. Sleek, stylish and quietly reliable. Available with 0% APR representative with 1500 pound deposit contribution and save 1500 pounds with the electric car grant. Get that Toyota electric feeling. Visit your nearest Toyota center, Jemka Bromley. Price from 34495 available on Toyota PCP and finance through Toyota Financial Services by 30th of June, 2026. Optional final payment and damages may be required. See website, TCC supply. Nobody always try to find players that I would compare to you on who is the player in today's game that you would compare to yourself. I literally can't think of one. I think of Stephen Kwan with the Guardians, but he has the gold gloves, but not the bat that you had and definitely not the stolen base threat that you were. So guys, they talk about Luis Arraiz getting on base, but he doesn't steal the bases. He doesn't play the defense like you do. So you were a guy who did everything, but to lead off hitters in today's game, what are you liking about what you're seeing or not liking about what you're seeing? Because some teams are putting power hitters in the lead off spot now. And other teams are allowing the true lead off hitter to return. What would you like to see in the game? I would like to see in the game, somebody see the problem is what, so I'll use the Dodgers example. Shohei, why do you leave Shohei off? That doesn't make any damn sense. It doesn't. Because if his first at bat, he has a chance to get one hit, one run, one RBI. That's it. You put him in a two or three hole, you have a chance for the lead off hitter who's supposed to get on. The second guy that can deal, those basically one and two are kind of, one is, you know, they're kind of the same, but they're different. One or two get a chance to get on. Now you get a chance to get a three run homer with Shohei coming up third than having a one, because he leads off with a homer and that's only one run. So now you have that opportunity for him to get on, have someone on base in front of him to add more runs to the board. But they saying that the analytics or something is saying that he comes up more. It's only once. I mean, out of a whole month, he might come up with extra five times at bat. Okay. Okay. Well, devil's advocate. So would you have not let Ricky off? Because Ricky clip you too. Okay. But Ricky was a little different. And Shohei stole 52. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I understand where you want to go with this, but there's a difference between, okay, Shohei, he's not a true, what I'm saying is that Ricky would take pitches. Shohei don't take pitches. You want to also work as a team game. If you're individual, yes, you lead them off. But again, you got to have understanding that there are more strategy behind this than just that first at bat. Think about it. It's more to it than just that first at bat. And then if you think about something like, sure, hey, now you got the eight and nine hitters coming up in front of him. He's still not going to have the opportunity to always get those runners on. Shohei, if he was hitting third, he would have a chance to hit 150 RBIs. He don't get that. He gets a hundred probably a little bit more than that. That's it. But again, because the eight and nine hitters are not your true best hitters. So you put them at the bottom of the order. So that means that Shohei's chances as your best hitter, his RBIs, his RBI chances are not there anymore. He never had chances to hit a grand. He's, I'm not trying to figure out how many grand stamps have he hit. I feel you as that type of a hitter, you that type of a hitter and an opportunity to multiple runs with your good, your better hitters in front of him. Yeah. I think, I think he's more of a product of like excessive riches. You know, if he was with another organization that didn't have five great hitters to lead at all, then okay, maybe you can move around. But when you got Mookie Batson, Freddie Freeman and now Kyle Tucker, you got all these guys. They should be in front of him. Hello. You just, you basically, you just said it, right? All those hitters are in front of him. So then why don't they put them in front of him and ask that, that'll increase your chances. Other teams don't have that. Remember, they was leading off Judd. I'm trying to understand. So basically, so basically this is what they're saying again. There's no more lead off hitters. We don't need them. So that's where my part of the game is they would have probably hit me eighth of ninth now because of Shohei, because of Judd. You get what I'm saying? If I was on the dodger, would they leave me off? No, they'll probably put me behind him. I mean, I compare this, I mean, the crossover to me and you were someone who played basketball, the point guard, they say that the traditional point guard, the Chris Pauls, those guys are dying out now to set the guys up, working pitches, setting guys up, setting the table for the team is kind of this new way of just the way we're looking at numbers and analytics, is kind of out across the board in sports. You are exactly right. Because again, because we don't have them no more to John Stockton's anymore. He's thinking about scoring point guards now. Yeah. So because the point guard, that was his job to set the table. Like lead off, he's your job. Yeah, set the table. Now they've thrown that away because again, always say when I say point guards and myself, it's the little guys, they taking the little guys and throwing us aside. We don't need you. We got the big guys now. That's how they're looking at it. You know, they got the big guys doing the point guard job. Right. Joka from Denver. Do we go on low? Take your butt down low where you belong. Across the board, that's how you feel, huh? All sports. Yeah. I feel you. Keep your, you know, there's a role in the game. That's what it is. They trying to reinvent the wheel. You can't. The wheel is made there for a reason, but they're trying to create because of what? I don't know. I don't know. It was analytics or whatever, but they saying more chance you got to stand and hit a three or whatever. But now you got to everybody trying to hit a three. You got to everybody trying to hit a home run because it's about money. All right. No, I feel you on that. And I think what it comes down to is having an appreciation for what every different type of person brings to the table and not thinking that we can have one person who can do everything. There's a specialty too that comes along with every sport and something that you had to do from a child growing up east side of Chicago. I think of like how you made your own path. When I look into your story and I want you to tell your story a little bit. Mother had you extremely young, father not in the picture, raised by your grandmother who, blind, legally I'm not sure. Tell us, give us a little more clarity about Kenny Lawton as a kid growing up on the east side of Chicago. I mean, I grew up very poor. We was on food stamps and all of that. That's how I grew up. I grew up, like I said, my mom had me young and my grandmother said, he's not going into no system. I'm going to take it. So she ended up taking me under her wing and like I said, probably when I was four or five, she ended up going completely blind. But she was doing everything before, but I think it progressed over the years because she just kind of was doing things and all of a sudden we started seeing her doing things with her eyes closed, like what are you doing? And then we figured out she was becoming blind. But she did everything, but again, it taught me, I'll say for me, it taught me when they talk about all the senses that you don't have to have all your senses to be great. And she passed away in 2014, but it was a learning curve for me to understand. I think organization wise, it taught me a lot because person being blind, you have to put things back in order. Sugar cane, flour cane, the corn, the rice, it had to be in order because that's what they knew. And it broke my heart when she gets frustrated when something's out of order because she can't see it. She can't see it to put it back in order. She only knows that the table, the chairs goes up against the table. So when she touched the table, she knows the chairs are going to be along that side. And that's how she made her way around. The tables, the kitchen, everything for me had to be in order. That's how it was raised. So now in my life, when people look at my house, she's like, dude, I said, dude, that's all I know. And she taught me a lot about me, again, she taught me so much about life and about growing up and making great decisions, doing things the right way. And a lot of things scared me at times. I'm like, whoa, this is how life's supposed to be. And I grew up around gang shooting, killing. We used to hear shots outside and it didn't faze her after a while. It's like, oh, they're just them on the street. They're shooting over here. But me, I'm like, whoa. So I learned to understand that a lot of that stuff, you grew up around it, it didn't faze you. But for me, that's all I knew. How I knew to be able to take care of someone because I was in the house with her. And I became this, I'm not going to say nerd or whatever, but very, because I was always concerned about her. And then when I end up the toughest part is when I decided to go to college, she said, Kenny, I want you to go. Please go. You know, I want you to get, she said, but can you promise me you will get your degree? That's all I want you to do is make sure you get your degree because she always says, what's the word? You always got to get your lesson. Get your lesson. You know, so that's something that stuck with me. And when she passed away, we had this thing, I have my bracelet right here or whatever. And inside this inside the bracelet, it says, may the work I've done speak for me. So what she's done for all the families, she had seven kids, and I was considered the eighth child. And, but she was just letting people know the work I'm doing and work I'm showing for you, speak for who I am. You know, that's what when she said that we ended up putting it on the bracelet after she passed away, that's something she stuck by. So basically, the way to work you do, speak for who you are. So do your work the right way, because it's going to speak for you when you're gone. Man, I'm assuming that that had to translate to everything that you did. That that helps mold you to become the player that you end up becoming. Yeah. And just knowing she had an obstacle that she had to overcome. So whatever happened out there, if she can live the life that she did being blind, nothing else out here is going to face me. No excuses. If you want to tell me, I mean, one thing I always say, if somebody tells you, you can't tell them you can't, and you go out there and do it because you will. That was the attitude I had. So when they say you can't do this, you can't do this, you're going to be able to play no baseball, you're going to play no basketball, watch me. And that's the mindset I had and that's the work you put in. Man, that's why you, that's why you got to hear people's stories. Like when you're trying to, and that's something that comes with any sport and being in a clubhouse and gaining relationships with people around you is like, I always got along with my teammates because you take time to understand that they don't have to act just like you act. You don't have to all be the same type of people. You all have different stories and you are the story of coming up without much, but turning that into a basketball career, a baseball career. You fulfill your grandmother's dream going to the University of Arizona. I don't know if you were recruited by Lute Olsen and did you just walk on, like tell us a story about how you end up fulfilling that dream, going to U of A and hooping there. Well, it started because I played basketball and baseball in high school. Basketball your first love? Baseball is my first love. Baseball, okay. Baseball is my first love, but, no you're good. But growing up where I grew up in East Chicago, East Side Chicago, and Indiana, it was Hoosier basketball. So, you know, when the guy's growing up, you know, you got all the girls and what are girls love basketball. They don't like baseball too much, you know, but you get caught up in the hoops of Hoosier and I ended up doing both, but basketball was my, I felt like it was going to get me to where I needed to go. And at that time, you have baseball and basketball. Baseball never gave full scholarships. Basketball only did. So, for me to go to college and fulfill that dream, and I couldn't afford to do a partial or any kind of partial, we don't do that. So, we had some teams that played in our area. I played against Weston Garland and I played against him in high school and some schools out there, new Lute Olsen coaches. And they said, we need a fast point guard that can be able to come to Arizona and be a leader. And they ended up telling him, he said, you need to go to East Chicago, Washington and get Kenny Lofton. So, I look out, look up, we in the, in the regionals, they're going to find out if I look up in the stand, there's Lute Olsen. So, I ended up getting recruited, came there and another recruiting guy, Kenny Burmeister, pretty wild guy, whatever. He came to the house and he was like, talk, talk, talk to my grandma. He's like, is he okay? Is he okay? But, but yeah, so that's kind of how, and then I ended up looking at, I think it was Louisville, Arizona, Purdue and West Virginia. Those are the schools I was looking at. And then once I took my recruiting visit to Arizona, Game Time, was a wrap. And that's Tucson. Yeah. So, I was there, I got there and, you know, I got off the plane and took my jacket. They said, you're gonna need that. I got there and they said, we give back to you when you get back on the plane. And yeah, it was nice. I went to, I met some of the guys on the team and then we went to a couple of little frat parties and I'm like, ooh, I'm sold. It's a wrap. It's a different world. It is. It's a different world. Five, 10 point guard with hops. I had a little bit of, I was a little taller than that. Yeah. Oh, are you? Yeah, I was taller than that. I was like five, 10 and a half. Yeah. Oh, on the six foot. Yeah. What happened? Well, I got shorter. How you did? That's what happened when you get older. Oh, okay. You're shorter, you know. So, but yeah. Some, some, some teammates that made the league, Sean Elliott being one, Coach Curse, someone I got a chance to play for. What was it like in those locker rooms during those practices and those games? You guys had a really competitive team and one of the greatest coaches of all time. Yeah. We had Sean Elliott, Steve Kerr, Tom Tolbert, Jeff Bushler, Sean Rooks, Harvey Mason, Matt Authick, Matt Milbach. We became a family and I think a lot of guys, majority of them didn't have father figures and they looked at you to do the most and is the father figure on that team. You know, he was very disciplined. He was very hard nose and he was Judas Priest. You know, he didn't curse, you know, so that was his main curse word, Judas Priest. So we just, we just felt this bond and we had, we, all these guys we had coming up and I came up, it was five freshmen and Sean Elliott was a freshman with me and was five of us and two of them transferred. But yeah, it was, you know, and Arizona was not on the map and we put Arizona on the map. We call Sean Elliott mini magic. He was, and then Steve Kerr, he shoots the lights out. So it was, it was, and Steve was, you know, we looked at it as, you know, the coach never caught a lot of timeouts because he felt like Steve was the coach on the floor and we felt that way. He was going to a little team, Huttles, Steve started talking and doing all this and doing all that and, you know, it was, it was fun to be a part of that and I was, I became the defensive specialist. I didn't shoot a whole lot because again, it was like the black hole when you stood with Tom Tobert, you wouldn't get in your back. Well, the first five guys you mentioned to all were pro, Rooks, Tobert, Bushler, Elliott and then you were playing with. Yeah. So, you know, people asked me, I said, why? I said, you know what? I named the guys. I'm like, again, being the point guard, you deliver the ball. I never got it back. So, pretty much, I passed it. So, it was like, you could, so it was almost like you passed the ball cross court and I stepped back over and wait to play defense. I didn't get that ball back. And this was also a time where guys weren't leaving early. So, you guys got guys who were staying three or four years. I was the same thing at UCLA and I tell people, I mean, 15 years, championship, kids, my college experience is right at the top of the best time of my life and similar for you. Yeah. When we got, I mean, getting to the final four, that was like unbelievable. And I tell people, they say, what's more exciting? World Series final four. I said, that final four is some special. Yeah. I said, people don't know that final four is something special. It's like you get all of the school and the state and everybody is there behind you. You know, you get all those teams and coaches that were coaching in March, Matt and this, they're all at the final four. They're watching you on the main court. Right there. You know, and it was Kipper Arena in Kansas. It was the year that Danny Manny went off doing that, that March madness. It was Arizona, Oklahoma, and then it was Kansas against Duke. You guys ran into a tough Mookie Blaylock, Stacey King, Oklahoma team that was tough. It's like Harvey Grant was there and man, they, they were, yeah, they got us. They got us. But yeah, but that was, it was just a fun moment, just being a part of that and learning a lot. And we still are friends with those guys. We have our Wildcat chat. To this day. To this day. Love that. We have that chat. Yeah. What was the one thing you took away from college as a man? You know what I learned as a man? You got to be accountable for your actions. You know, you got to admit when you're wrong. The sooner you learn that, the better. And then I think I learned that early on and it, it progressed my life of knowing, you know, be accountable for your actions because there are consequences. And once I felt like I understood that as a man, I think I finally became a man. That's deep. Matt, you think you could have handled going straight to the pro ball from high school? No. No chance. No. No. When you see, because you know, in baseball, you see that a lot. You see guys. Mentally, physically. No, I couldn't. You got to be special across the board. You guys see it a lot more in your sport because I think there's more time to groom and grow in the minors. Going straight to the pros and the NBA is straight to the pros. Straight to the pros. You know what I mean? So there's no buffer. There's no, and I kind of thought that college was kind of like my last little bubble where I was still able to kind of somewhat be a kid as I'm coming into a man and be able to do some kid shit. I knew I probably shouldn't be doing, but okay, you can play for UCLA basketball. You can kind of, so it was kind of like that last buffer into Kenny and into Kenny's point is just understanding, you know, the shit I do. I'm going to have to be held accountable for if it's the wrong kind of stuff. So. How long in college did it take you to get that lesson? I probably say a couple of years in the NBA. I didn't even touch. It took me a little longer than just college to get that. But I'm going to tell you something. In baseball, that minor league, it humbles you quickly. It's dream humbler, dawg. Yeah. Luckily, I got for somehow, you know, probably God had the sensors on me or whatever, but I went from basketball where we flew all the time or whatever. Then I went from there to the minor leagues. So I went from good thing. I went from low a middle a. I skipped double A. So I played well enough. The guy, they signed me in Willie Angel, he was the number one draft fixed center fielder. They signed him in front of me. He was a number one pick. And he never made it to the big leagues, but he can even make it out of the double A. So I was, I was moving up the ladder quick and fast, got to high A ball, start playing. We went to spring training and went to spring training. He was in double A spring training. And it was like, what do we do here? Because Kenny's balling. This guy's our number one pick. So they test him out at triple A the first couple of weeks. Terrible. So, and then from there, they said, Kenny, we want to try you in triple A. So spring training, once you gave me a shot, that's over. It was a wrap. Why was it triple A? I was balling. They kept me there. And all of a sudden the end of the camp, they said, you're going to triple A. You know, I'm like, wow. But again, all you had to do is give me that opportunity. And I took advantage of it. And as you can't tell me no, you can't tell me I can't because I'm going to tell you I can't and I will. You know, and I think once I had, so I ended up skipping the long road trips, the bus rides, I freaked out. I would have freaked out. So I think something, the universe, God, or whatever, it said, Kenny can't be in double A because riding in those buses, he freaks out. So I wasn't, I think I had the longest I went I had was probably 10 hours, I think. It's a long one. It's still long, but no, it has something longer than that. Oh yeah, I did some 16. That's what I'm saying. Oh, shit. I did some 16. Yeah. So that was a double A. They were long. You're trying to decide who's sleep on the low side. Yeah. Who's sleep on the high side, but the low side always cold because the AC pumping down there. You're sleeping between the seats. You get to the spot. Your hips hurt. Your everything hurts. So it never like, luckily something said, Kenny, can't, can he freak out on all the long bus rides? You had to step down from Arizona basketball to the step down. That would have been a step down already. And how long could I, it was like, how long is this man going to be able to, to deal with this, this kind of type of travel he ain't used to, you know, and luckily, God had you. Huh? God had you. Whoo. He knew. What do you remember about the Foot Locker Slam Dunk Contest? You buried the Mike Connelly senior. I think Mike Connelly wanted, didn't he? Yeah, he wanted, but I'm, you know what, he wanted, but I'm no reigning champ. Talk to him. Better put it up. Better tell him. Talk to him. You know, they got me the first year or what a second year. I'm like, okay, but I had to think about what I had to do. I said, you know, I'm better than this. Yeah. Tell us how this all came together right here. Well, again, that's what was happening. You know, they were talking about the Foot Locker and that was the big thing back then. And they're off season or whatever for us. It was the Foot Locker. They all talked about it and Foot Locker always wanted to put on some type of show. And that's what they did, the Dunk Contest. Was that in Phoenix? That was in Phoenix. Yeah. So yeah, it was, uh, it was... What was your winning dunk? Uh-oh. Flat top Kenny. Flat top Kenny. So, what's going on with this one? Oh, okay. The double pump. You know, that was the beginning. You got to be something like this. Are you 5'10 here or 6' here? I'm 5'11 1.5 there. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was in Phoenix. So yeah, it was, it was good to have the crowd support behind me there as well being in Phoenix. They need to run this back. That was dope, right? Yeah, but... Compare, obviously, playoff baseball is incredible, but compare the energy from a basketball crowd to a baseball crowd. It's a lot different, I would guess. Well, the thing about basketball and baseball, the crowd is closer up on you. Okay. So that's the difference. Okay. And, uh... Okay. Roll it back real quick. Okay. That was easy too. That was easy. You know, yeah, that one. Nothing. You know, it was. I don't know, it was 44. Yeah. I had 44. Yeah. You got a 44 inch vert, huh? Yeah. Give me one more to take us on right here. Take it home. Oh! He kept that short mustache to keep him up in the air. Arrow dynamic. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. But yeah, it was fun. It was fun doing that. We had a good time and again, you have to make sure you make your dunks. Yeah. And you have to try to practice your dunks and do all that. But back then, we didn't have the crazy thought process. I did a couple in high school. I jumped over bicycle in high school and all that, but it was definitely more trying to be a little bit more careful. Back then, you didn't care. What's... Free shoes? 50, baby. 50 racks? 50 racks, baby. Oh, hell yeah. That was a big red. Yeah, that was big red. Oh, I need that. Oh, I need that. Yeah. Question real quick. The flat top you had, but there was an urban legend that used to race people outside the barbershop that thought they was faster than you. Any truths to that? Yeah, they always tried to... When I was younger... You couldn't even get your hair cut in peace. No, they always thought they could beat me. And after a while, I'm like, I can't be racing for free. Come on, you got your ear. Come put some money on that. It even happened at the... I was playing in the Tahoe event. Some of the dudes tried to... I'm like, are you serious? I said, I don't race for free. Racing turned to the dice game. I said, it's going to cost you. Your shoes on or shoes off when you're racing? That tells me a lot about you. Oh, I'm going shoes on. Oh, I don't mess around. Shoes off bad. Bad people who race. That's the wildest thing in the world. That's how we played in the street when we was younger. Shoes on. Yeah, shoes off. Your feet started to get all that crazy. Yeah. All this got to come up. No, my shoes stayed all right. But you're up. Yeah, I got left. But you see the thing about it, he probably grew up with what he had. He didn't have to wear those Walmart shoes. We had to. No, we had Payless, not Walmart. We had Payless. Remember, they had the... See, we had Payless. They didn't have the Jordans. They had the Jord Ash to look just like the Jordans. They're about to fucking be making fun of me all the time. And so I started fighting that and racism made me start probably make fun of my shoes. We had to fight. Yeah, I know. Back then, the shoes were tough, man. We're sitting here and there's nothing but basketball highlights that we're looking at. And that reminds me, it's no highlights from U of A baseball. But you end up having a baseball career get drafted out of U of A with one at bat to your name. How was that possible? That's crazy work. It was after the final four. We played in the final four. And again, me passing the ball to everybody, I'm like, you know what? I got to start thinking about my future. What's next? What's next? You know, if I still have my senior year coming up, but I'm like, wow, seeing how this is and seeing the accolades that the guys that play what Anthony Cook was another guy who went to the end, we played in the league, we played with Orlando. He was on that team as well. So and he made the league. So for me to feel like, okay, I'm not getting a chance to, to let people see me. And I said, you know what? Baseball, I'm going to come up to the bat. The first thirds, I mean the first inning, third inning, seventh inning, fifth inning, ninth inning, you're going to see me. You know, and I felt like baseball, I started missing baseball again, because I'm like, you know what? Because you're playing in high school, then you're not playing at all in college. Yeah. And I said, I'm missing baseball. I said, you know what? I was pretty good at baseball. So let me go out there and, you know, and work out. So the coach called Jerry Kindle, the baseball coach, Ludo's and called him and said, hey, I got to play a game like he wants to come out and work out with the team. He said, go, he can come and work out because they already had the season because you know, Arizona, they started in probably in November playing baseball. And it was, it was probably end of March, probably the first of April. So I just went out there and worked out with the team. I got a glove and, you know, some shoes and just start, you know, out there and practice, taking batting practice, hitting and. And that was the first time since high school, correct? Yeah. Like riding a bike? Yeah, it was. And I knew once I got out there, I'm like, wow, it's coming naturally. You know, I was a little rusty, but so I was out there hitting and doing things. And one thing I always tell people, one thing I could always do was bunt. I always could bunt. So they saw me bunt and they saw me hit a swing and I think, and then they tried to go me to go to home the first and they kept talking about. Clock is messed up. You know, and then also they, they was trying that and they said, this ain't right. And they tried to have me go first to third. And I think one thing they got, I think just one scout, still a friend of mine, Clark Christ. He was a scout for the Houston Astros at the time. I was, I was taking some shag balls in the outfield and I was talking to somebody and I was in the right center. They hit a ball to left center. And I went and caught it. While you're doing all this, you're thinking about pro baseball. You're thinking, I want to get drafted. I'm out here doing these workouts. Like your teammates around, you got to be looking like, Who is this dude? Exactly. But again, they knew I wasn't a threat because it's my junior year. I'm going to be playing basketball again. So they, you know, just, he's out here just working out and what I think I did some JV games or whatever. But for the university, Arizona basketball player on the thing, they, they suited me up for varsity a couple of times and ended up getting in a bat. And that was kind of it. And then came up the guy, Clark Chris, end up finally getting in touch with me. He going to Bapcock while we were staying in the dorm or whatever and trying to find me. He said, Hey, you want to play baseball? I said, well, I'm playing basketball right now. He said, I think you should try baseball. And I was like, I don't know. Maybe I don't know. So I kind of kicked into the curve and whatever. And then all of a sudden I got, I left home, I went to go home. And then all of a sudden I get this phone call. He's my grandmother say, Hey, some guy keeps calling me calling here for you from the Astros or some baseball team or whatever. She said, he keeps calling, he keeps calling. And I'm like, what? She said, yeah, he says something about, he wants to draft you. What? So I finally got home because you don't have the, the, the phones, you know, and we had the cell phones or whatever. So we end up, I end up calling, he ended up calling, I am talking to him and I had another friend of mine to talk to him as well about what we're trying to do. I said, well, I can probably do that. But I got my last year of basketball. So I have to go back and he said, Oh, no, there's no problem. You can, you can go back and, you know, you can play it on a summer. And then when, when, when, when, when, when it's time for you to go back to school, you leave and go back to school and you do your baseball. I mean, your basketball. So I end up, so I end up working out to where they said, I can go play that summer and then go back and play basketball and then come back that summer. But I said, and my grandmother said, you know what, make sure you got to finish college now. So that was another sticking point. And I told them, I said, okay, I will do this, but I have to graduate first. And then I can do our baseball. So after I finished that first minor league season, I went back to play basketball. But during that season, I was able to shoot around, stay fresh, stay fresh and some courts they had, they had a squirt and it was in Auburn, New York. That was my first minor league season. They had one of the gyms. They were able to, you know, one of the coaches talked to the people in the gyms and they were able to let me shoot around and I'll do some drills myself or whatever in the gym. And then doing some of the morning time because we played night games. So the morning I used to go and shoot and try to keep myself fresh that way. And then after that season, though, I did terrible. And then I went back and play basketball. And then I came back since I was so terrible, they sent me back to that place again, Auburn. So I went back there. And then from there, I went back and I played better. So they moved me up to Midway. So they moved me up to Midway as an Asheville, North Carolina. So I went there and I played decent there and they said, oh man, you playing good? I said, oh, gotta go back to school. They said, what? You finished basketball? What did I tell you guys? Graduated. I got three classes left. They said, no, we can do this. You gonna look at how you're improving. You're gonna, but they was, they was trying to me to do winter ball, all kind of ball, extended spring, all that kind of stuff they were trying to get me to do. And I said, what did I tell you guys? I think that says a lot about your character, they're not to interrupt because nine out of nine and a half out of 10 kids are gonna stick with the sport. But you made a promise to your grandmother that as great as you think I can be or I'm doing right now, I got something to go do. That was my heart, man. So she was my heart and whatever she said, I did. So she said, can you graduate? And I told them, I said, I'm sorry. Oh, you, we think you're gonna go to, you're gonna get you to these, you know, the, the leagues, you can go to winter ball and you can be a part of the big leagues next year. I said, next year, the year after, I could still be there too, right? They said, well, we don't know. I said, I'm gonna go to school. So boom, I left. Why did you feel like you had the power to be that demanding as a 17th rounder? Because normally, as a lower round draft pick, you feel like, I got to do what they say. I got to do what they say. I mean, first rounders can come out and start making there. No, I got to do this. I got to do this. I do this or I won't sign with you. But as a 17th rounder, teams would be like, sorry, either you with us or you're not. And also secondly, the trust that you had in yourself to say, I can be that issue. I can be the next year. Either way, I know myself and I know that I'm going to make it anyway. Because after that, you know, I went from that one A ball to the higher A ball and I did better at the higher A ball. And I knew. And then you can hear the talk and the chatter, what he keep talking about. And you hear, that's what David was talking about. You know, this guy, he's improving. He's fast. He can bunt. A lot of people couldn't do that. So certain things that I was doing, they couldn't do. Or they didn't see it in other players. So I knew just listen to the chatter. I said, you know what? But I said, it's going to take me just this off season. So you got this smarter time for me to go ahead and because it was one semester. One semester. Last semester. Last semester. So that's all it was that that one semester I had to do. Not graduate. I said, you know what? So either you're going to do this, you can come back and finish that. I'm like, that's not a guarantee. So right now I am on a roll. I'm going to go back and get by degree like I told my grandmother I was. When you went back to school for that last semester, were you training for baseball or just strictly school? Oh, I went to the batting cages and stuff. Yeah, I was doing batting because my again, my good friend of mine, Clark Chris was a scout. He ended up, he lived in Tucson. So he and I worked out while doing that time. And after I did that, after I would have, I walk across the stage and I said, Hey, I'm all yours now. I got my degree. I'm all yours. That's amazing that you was able to write your own story like that. Cause a lot of, a lot of players wouldn't even have the confidence to feel like they had the power to write their own story like that. But you, you trusted the process and you knew, you knew you had this superpower. You mentioned it a couple of times of you had the superpower to be able to get the button down better than anybody in baseball and 199 Bum Base hits over your career. What stands out to me is I know you had to have some crazy matchups with third basements. It's not a picture of batter matchups is batter third basing matchups because it's similar to Steph Curry. If you're trying to stop me to get the three point line, he going to get his, he going to get there and he going to get his shot off for you. The entire stadium knows that what you want to do is get this button down. So every team is guarding against you getting the button down. Yes. Who are the matchups that stand out to you to where it's like, I don't care if you write on top of me, I'm still going to get this down. I'm still going to be safe. You tell who was pretty good at that. Matt Williams. Okay. Well, something about him getting Matt Williams was one of them. One, I can tell you a story. You were talking about that Matt Williams one, but one scary incident I had in my career is with Cal Ripken. So, because Cal went from short to third playing third basing, you know what I do here. But good thing about me, about what made it better for me, I was able to slap the ball hard down the left field because before they kept saying, Oh, he's a slapping Judy hitter. I went from slapping Judy hitter to hitting balls in the gap and hard to the left side, you know, to feel. So it was one story where we were playing against Baltimore and it was doing Cal Ripken streak. So they told him to bun, they say he's coming, he's going to bun, come in. So they moved Cal in, they told him more. So Cal came in and I pulled it back hit the line drive and I hit a line drive and it went, it went right by his ear. He did not move because he didn't see it when I'm sending myself. I hit it and I ended up still in second. I'm coming to third. He's freaking crazy. I said, bro, I am so sorry. I apologize. Come on, man. You know, and I'm like, dude, so ever since then with Cal Ripken, he came, I said, blue, go back. I am not button. Oh, dang, no spec factor. Yeah. So that streak, bro, it was in Baltimore. They would have killed me. You might not have made it out. Shit. So when I did, I'm like, Oh shoot. And we're like, he didn't even move. He was like, Oh dude, that would have hit him right in the head. So that part. Yeah. Dude, just imagine how I'm feeling. And he got the third base and he was like doing stuff to him. I'm like, dude, I'm sorry. My head. I didn't know it was going to be, it was like a perfect pitch to him. Like, Oh, that could have been scary. You got to get inch to the, Oh yeah, you got it. Yeah. It was, no, it was actually was on this side of him. Okay. So left side, but he's doing, he didn't get it. He didn't get his glove up. Not even fast enough. Yeah, that's a hot, they call it the hot point for a reason. Yeah. Right. He was trying to stay so he can get his movement. So his glove was down and his running position trying to come in. And I faked it and boom. So we're your professional baseball player now. And something I think we all grew up doing was playing multiple sports and it all added to our final destination. Okay. How much did basketball help you on the baseball field? Well, I say with me with instincts and being able to be quick on your feet and timing because basketball, you got to get in that position. And that guy got on the course. Change direction. You got to go. And I felt change of direction was was easy for me. You know, and then the funny thing in the minor leagues, I would want to coach Reggie Waller. He was, he was like, Kenny, you know, you play basketball, if the ball goes up, it goes out of your over your head, you got to go get it. What do you do? I said, I'll jump and get it. So the boy hit him on one time, the ball hitting the outfield and I'm running. I'm like, oh, she's over my head. So I jumped, jumped up and caught it. He said, Kenny, you can't be doing that. He said, you got to go and take the route. And I'm like, I cut it off. I try to go up in the air and get it. Direct line. You can't do that. So I knew. And then I'll tell people catching the balls over the wall. It was easy for me. It was easy. Because the timing because again, played in Arizona and being the slam dunker I was, they had a play for me that they throw me a lob. Go get it. Throwing a lob to me. Body awareness in the air. I mean, it's just in the air. Go get it. So that's the thing. The baseball, you look at the timing, the balls in the air. Got to go get it. Go get it. So that's how I thought about in the outfield was just going to get it. And it was, like I said, in this age is different than back then a little bit. I probably had about 20 of them. They came, they came find them all. They come show them all because it ain't like the social media and the thing that it is now. But I have a lot. Yeah. Early days in the MLB clubhouse, what do you remember the most when you first got there? Well, my first one, I was with Houston. I was scared. Boy, I was scared shitless. Yeah. Because, you know, being a rookie and the things they do to rookies, I was scared. And I was in my first clubhouse was Casey Kandel, Gerald Young, Kevin Bass. You guys probably know all these names. Ken Jalosi, Casey Kandel. So it's just little things you just didn't know. So I was kind of quiet, you know, and ended up getting called up and going in my first game in my career. I was in three for four. So I was like, oh, that's easy. Lead off. Yeah. So my first hit was against Randy Myers, lefty, pull him up the middle. Bass hit. My second hit was a two hopper to short. Beat it out. Very locking. Oh shoot. And he threw it in. And he was like, oh, he's like, damn, I knew you was fast, but dang. He said he's only two people that made him think that way. He said myself and Dion. You were three flat to first? Well, the timing was different on a bun or the swing or whatever. But I think I was the fastest was was three five or something. But but again, it was it was one of the fastest and Barry Larkin said that you were only two people that scared the hell out of me is you and Dion. He said, I don't know who's faster, but y'all neck and neck. And after that, every time the ball hit the short, he didn't give it. He got that while he's in so quick after he's seen that. So being a rookie, I was just nervous. You know, as a rookie, I ended up being in a not was because I was with Houston, we were terrible. But what what made me feel good about trying to succeed in being the playoffs, we were the last game of the season playing. I forgot who we were playing against. And it was the Giants and the Braves going for being the playoffs. Yeah, they both like win 100 games or something. It was crazy. And I was in the dugout and they were showing it because it was showing the clips because it was just one of those games we were we were playing and they were on the I think they were on the West Coast. I'm not sure. But after the game, I end up what they were showing it on the screen because it was a big game and it was showing it. So I end up sitting there watching this like, wow, this is some excitement. I'm like, this is what I want to be a part of. Then I ended up getting traded to Cleveland. But yeah, what was I like? What's your first impressions of Cleveland and who were some of your vets in that locker room? Well, you know, going from a last place team to another last place team at that time, we had a lot of young guys coming up. So it wasn't, you know, it was Albert Bell, it was Sandy Alomar, Carlos Baerga. But then happened in 94. We end up starting that that team Cleveland, we started because that was when the new stadium came and we ended up getting so Eddie Murray was he still is a good friend of mine. He was a good mentor. Dave Winfield, Dennis Martinez, or her size was on that team. Those are the vets that you talk to when you wanted to understand what pitching did and what it is that you know, and then think about it is Eddie Murray, people talk about Eddie Murray not talking to the media or whatever. Eddie Murray talks all the time. Oh my goodness. But Eddie was like, he was almost like EF Hutton when he talked, you listen, listen, yeah. And I got so much knowledge from Eddie just learning about the game. And we call Eddie, he was a professional hitter. Eddie Murray, boy, we're runners on base. He taught Albert Bell so much stuff that people don't really talk about. And Albert was a smart guy. People were smart. And he watched almost Eddie's every movement. People don't know that, but he did. He watched Eddie's approach. Eddie had the best approach both sides of the plate to both sides of the plate. He had the best approach of the game and just listening to his thinking and Albert act like he wasn't listening. He was listening. He was. Albert was an intimidating figure from a far. I couldn't imagine what's going to happen. I was about to say I couldn't imagine what's going to happen. Albert was very smart. Was he? Oh, he was like 34th in his class and that lets you. I loved that. People didn't know that. They used to do those USA Day, USA Today crossword puzzles. Everybody's going to the Albers locker. I loved it. That's what everybody's coming to my locker for when I was playing. Just so y'all know. But I mean, in all seriousness, that team, y'all had some monsters on that squad. I mean, I think would you say that's the best team assembled that never won? I mean, let's go through the guys. I had myself was leading off new head Omar Viscale, Carlos Baerga, Albert Bell, Eddie Murray, Jim Tome, Manny Ramirez, Paul Sarento and Sandy Alomar. That was a lineup, bro. It was. I forgot what the baseball game was called, but that was it wasn't MLB. What was it? Damn, I've been trying to remember. Oh, you talking about backyard? No, no, no. On the video game system. I forgot because I used to use you guys and I forgot. RBI baseball? No, after RBI. Was it before? The lineup. I think another game you're talking about. It was when it was when the baseball RBI was kind of like it was dope, but it was kind of like it wasn't really didn't have the graphics that we needed. But the one after I remember it, that's all I was just trying to look up. But go ahead. That was incredible team. Y'all go to the World Series. It has to be one of them teams because we all have those teams where you look in the clubhouse and you're looking around and you say, this is the one. We got everything we need. This is the one. Or do you not feel like you had everything you needed? We had all the offensive categories, every single one. We had it. On base percentage, RBI hits, runs, average. We did it all. So we went to the World Series knowing we had the most walks in the game. We had the highest on base percentage because we knew the strike zone. And then we get to the World Series. Who's there with Braves? That's 95. So that's where this good pitching beat good hitting because now y'all going against Maddox and Glavin. What you think about a good pitching is only going to be as good as how the umpire is caught in the game, to be honest. Max got a big strike zone? Max Glavin, they all did. They all did, to be honest. They all had a strike zone. It's funny. 97 when I played with the Braves, I used to talk to Barry Larkin all the time. I say, when they come in town, I'm like, you ain't got a chance. We got Glavin, Maddox, Smokes, Pitchin, and look who the umpires are. You ain't got a chance. That is changing the game a lot with the whole ABS system and everything else. Veteran guys got better strike zones. I remember. I used to get to one of the games one time with Larry Young with the umpire and Roger Clemens on the mound. He called the ball just that far off the plate. Like, dude, what the hell was that? He said, that's a Hall of Fame pitch. I'm going to ask bullshit. Excuse my name. I said it just like that. Kicked me out of the game. Sorry, Wayne Kirby, he was on the toilet here the other day. Like, hey, why? It's close. So how was that experience for you? You're going from Cleveland, go to the World Series, get traded to the Braves from Marquis Grissom, David Justice, and then you end up going back to Cleveland again. So it wasn't any bad blood with Cleveland when they traded you? Well, no, because again, you had the assistant GM and you had the GM. We tried to figure out because what happened was Albert Bale the year before became a free agent and left and went to the White Sox. So instead of the GM coming to talk to me and saying, hey Kenny, we got to figure out something because Albert left. We don't want you to leave. That wasn't told to me. So all of a sudden I spring training and I get there and I know one of the rest in peace, David Nelson comes to me and says, Kenny, I want to see you in the office. I'm like, damn, that thing, what did I do last night? Did I do something to make you know? It caught me in office and he had his head down. I'm like, this is not good. And when they say you've been traded, I'm like, what? I was part broken. I'm like traded. Yeah. Well, we feel like because you become a free agent and we think that you're going to be lit. Well, we did it last year, Albert left and we think that you're going to be doing the same thing and to go for the money, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, wow. Did they offer you a deal? No. They didn't offer you a deal. That's made even more upsetting. So they had a fear that you were going to leave for nothing so they had to get something for you instead of having a conversation with you. Yeah, there you go. And I ended up getting traded and then played in Atlanta. I played very well and this is where I think baseball gets in that thing where they can make up a story about you to make you look bad so they can't resign you. That happened with the Braves. They were saying that I was bad for the clubhouse and music. I said, wait a minute. Y'all don't have music in the clubhouse. So don't use the music as because I stole 75 bases the year before and then in Braves, I ended up pulling my growing and I wasn't the same guy because they were trying to force me to get back and I'm trying to hurry up and show this team. I'm a free agent. I'm a free agent. So I wanted to try to get back and I wasn't 100% but I still hit 3, 30, something. You still made the All-Star game that year, right? Yeah. And you went back to... And you went back. What was that like? Not to cut your story out, but was it bittersweet going back to Cleveland as a brave as an All-Star? No. I mean, no, when I went there, I got the highest ovation. I love that. I got the highest ovation of anyone there going back to Cleveland. Now back to what you were saying before, this is obviously pre what the media puts as the gospel now. This is pre-social media. This is pre-players really having a voice to, hey, that's not what's really going on. So you kind of have to stick with it. And that's what happened. I didn't have a chance to have my voice once I found out. He's a bad guy and all the players, it's like, wait a minute. Can you mind his own business? And that's where the confusing part made it seem like I was this bad guy. I was bad with the media. I'm like, wait a minute, can you guys give me some clips or something that showed that I was bad with the media? Something. So it became behind me that was on a tag on my back. I'm like, wait a minute, how was I bad? It started in 90s with the brace. I'm like, how was I bad with the media? And I had no clips or something. So now they're saying, what a reason why you probably the Hall of Fame, because the media, they try to use that. You wasn't good. I said, okay, so I said, okay, can you give me an example? Okay, I'm gonna give you, can you give me examples of what I was bad at? Nobody gave, there's nothing in the media in the papers or anything that showed I was bad. A lot of the people that you say are bad with the media is hella clips. Yeah. There's a lot of clips that you don't have to say. You don't have to say it. Because they know. Because they know. It was clips there. There was nothing. So, and they said, that's probably the reason why the Hall of Fame, I said, wait a minute. That's nasty work. So I'm gonna throw you one name out there. Framigryff. Crammed on. Crammed on. Framigryff got 5% or whatever. He was on the ballot. He was there for 10 years. He got off the ballot. His numbers were there. His numbers were way better than Bagwell's. It was there. He didn't get in. So when y'all say players don't get in because of media, why didn't Framigryff get in there? Because he had no answers. Everybody loved Framigryff. Exactly. So when they try to use me and what they say about the media, and that's probably the reason why, Framigryff was, he was the darling or whatever for everybody. Media everybody. But somehow the 10-year span, he couldn't get into the Hall of Fame. And his numbers were way better than people there were there. But again, the veterans, he got to the veterans committee his first year. Boom. He got in perfectly. But again, so when you use the word bat for the media is the reason why, and he was a guy that didn't have nothing with the media, and he didn't get in. So don't put that towards me. Yeah. Moving the goalposts. You're moving the goalposts. It's all about the numbers. You played in a special era of outfielders. Multisport stars, incredible players such as Barry Bonds, Griffey, but Deon and Bo what was that era like as just kind of the competitive nature amongst those guys, even when you weren't playing against it, were you kind of seeing what they were still doing and kind of keeping an eye on some of those guys? I think the fun part about that is seeing real athletes, what I call real athletes on the field. If you could play multiple sports, that's showing that you are a real athlete and you can do multiple things. Just seeing I wasn't the only one. It was probably kind of cool because people can talk about it. It could be the talk. You had Tony Gwinn, he also played two sport as well. And just the opportunity to see when people say, what's the toughest sport? You got to be baseball. And that's one of the toughest sports to play and to maintain. I feel good about myself playing 17 years and being able to maintain what I did. But I think because of what I did, lead off, outfield, raise havoc on the field, I think teams needed that. And then they talk about, I'm not sure we're going to talk about the stretch run, why I got traded. People didn't do what I did. So when they come to the playoffs, first thing they say, we need somebody to get on base. We need somebody to table set. We need somebody to create havoc in the playoffs because again, you know, playoffs, it ain't about everybody hitting home runs. It's about getting on base. You got to manufacture runs in the playoffs. You know, and that's where I felt pretty good about people wanting me because in a sense, like you said myself, Ricky, we were rarities in the game. It wasn't a lot, it was a few, but it wasn't a lot of us that as a lead off hitter wanted to be there. Some guys didn't want to be there. They didn't want that stress. They didn't want that pressure. Yeah, they didn't want that pressure. I didn't mind it. A lot of people didn't want that pressure. Let's get into that a little bit because that's something that we all have in common. A lot of guys can't just play for one team their whole career. All of us bounced around a lot and some people look at it as a bad thing that you bounced around so much and you play with 11 different teams, but you seem to have a different look on that. When you're bouncing around from clubhouse to clubhouse, understanding that you're being brought in for a reason to help them win a World Series, to help them get to a World Series because you have this special skill set. How much of a process was it for you mentally just getting acclimated in a different clubhouse every single year and still trying to be a team guy when you know you're somewhat of a one-year guy there? Well, for me, you get acclimated. I'm a lead off hitter. You just jump in one clubhouse to another clubhouse. You have to just have your mindset to where once I get between the lines, I got to do my job. Don't matter what team it is, I got to be the lead off hitter. I got to get on base because basically I didn't try to change what I did. People needed me there because of what I did. Like you say, the pressure of me is that I had to keep doing it. I had to consistently do it. I went to the Giants and they were back in the standings, but they needed that push. I got there. We got to the World Series. I went to the Cubs, back at the standings, needed that push. I did that push and we got to the League Championship Series. That's the Bartman game. That's the Bartman. I was there and people understand. Moises and left, I was in center and Sammy was in right. Talk to us about that though. That was coming up, but since you brought it up, talk to us about that game. Well, again, I feel like the game had nothing to do with Bartman. Again, we had to score runs no matter what and after the Bartman play, there was a perfect two hop to Alex Gonzalez, perfect two double play hop and he booted it. If he gets that ball, we out of that any Bartman situation would have never came up. It would have never been talked about and we would have won that series. But because of that play, they blame it on the Bartman and I'm like, dude, Moises, people go into the stands all the time and try to catch balls and fans. They try to catch a ball. Come on, man. You see a ball coming at you, you're going to try to catch it. Naturally. I think Moises made a bigger, a bigger antique about it that he needed to. You didn't catch the ball. Okay, let's get back on the field, bro. Next play. But then the next play was a perfect two hopper to the shortstop for double play and he bobbled it and then all the mess happened. But that was then, but again, I play with a lot of players. Interesting. And me and Sammy almost got into a fight too. Oh, cool. What happened? Well, say, okay, gloss over. So you want to bring it up since we want to come to that point. So we want to play, you know, because again, you know, as in the playoffs, every situation is going to count. Every play, every hit, every out, you know, it was big because there was no going back. So, and it was men on first and second, I think, and Sammy had just got a home run or hit or something. It was a quite tight game and, you know, he always doing. So, pitcher comes up, you know, in a tough situation. So he's doing his kissing to the crowd. He's playing back. Pitcher hit a ball, blooped in front of him. I was pissed. I said some words or whatever. I said, whatever, we got to the dugout and I was still going off. He said, if you cannot, chase him up the thing. And I was, I've never got so he, because again, I know what playoff ball is about. He didn't know he didn't play many. I played a lot of playoff games. So I know how important every little out and everything is going to be. So he was going off. He started his offer, get you whenever he said, get you, I chase him up the thing and I took like five steps and somebody grabbed me. It was Kerry Wood. He grabbed, he was asking about it. He grabbed me. Oh yeah. Big boy. Boy, he grabbed because he saw how hot I was and I was going after Sam in the clubhouse and then we had a thing after the game. Dusty called us in the office and had it or whatever. And I was, and I told Dusty about it. Dusty understood, but Dusty was a manager. So he knows how to work it, but I was still hot. And we end up, you know, say making up, but because it, it didn't affect the outcome, but it could have. And that was my thing. It could have affected the outcome, but I just don't want you doing what you could probably do it again. When everybody know when the pitchers hit, you don't play deep. And you know what? Somebody got to say something because when you're talking about a superstar player, a lot of times people be like, I want to say something, but you gotta do a thing. But you always got somebody in the clubhouse that you can trust. Gonna say something or something need to be said. I happened to be that guy because I didn't, I didn't back down from none of them. Frank Thomas, Barry, you had a chip, the chip was a cool guy. He was kind of, he was laid back or whatever. But if something needed to be said, they looked at me and I'm like, I don't care. I'm gonna say it. I'll say it to the manager. I'll say it to the players. I don't care. But I think too, you respected for saying that and allowed to do that because you led by example. Your play on the field gave you the, and I was the same way in the locker rooms, I played with the stars. I played with being able to deliver that message to the star because you know what's coming from a genuine place and I'm gonna give my life out there on that field, on that court. So that's where my, you know. And what pet peeve of mine, the guy's not running out of ball, hitting the ball to pop up or what, I'm not running out. I've seen too many times where a guy not running it out and a catcher bottom, the first baseman bobbled it and you tagging it down the line because you thought it wasn't out and he bobbled it and you could have been safe. The nineties in Nike's imprint on shoes, the Air Kalo 96s and then the Air Zoom diamonds 97 Dylan, pull them up. Let me see what those are looking like. What was it like to be able to be in that elite class of players that have their shoe? It was pretty, it was kind of an honor, you know. And that's when I felt like Nike was looking at the speed and what I did was on that level and for you to get your own signature shoe. Look at them things. You know, you get your own signature shoe. I felt, I remember that one right there. Yeah, I felt very good about it and they fly you up to Portland, Oregon and you go in and they put your mold in their foot and you get some little tweaks about the design, but they have their way of how they want to do it. Them to berries right there. Yeah. So I just felt like you felt like, you know, you made it. Right. Come on, man. Nike too. You still have them. You got a pair? You got a pair at the house? Oh yeah, I still got a pair. Can you? You got a size 12? Oh no, I'm sorry. Sorry. Are you still in the Nike family? You still have a connection over there? I do have a connection, but I'm not, you know, what have you done for me lately? Gotcha. You know, so I'm trying to, you know, hopefully they keep bringing back, you know, different guy's shoes again. And hopefully I was hoping that the Hall of Fame can help them bring that opportunity from to bring that back to put that back. But hopefully one day they'll bring it back to K. Lo's. You think about some of your signature moments, your crazy playoff runs. We went through the giants. We went through your time with the Cubs. Also the historic Yankees, where y'all lost the 3-0 to the Red Sox. I mean, I was upset with that because I felt I should have been playing more. I didn't play. And those pictures that they had on the mound with Boston, I crushed them all. I'm like, why am I not in the game? And me and Sheffield talked about it all the time. He said, man, don't worry about it. If it wasn't for Sheffield, I would have went off more about it. You know, he kept me calm. If Sheffield won, keeping you cool. That's the shit, ain't it? So he kept me cool because I was going off. I just felt like, why am I not out here? Especially when Shilling had that so-called bloody out of but on him four times. Get him off the mound. That's people understand stuff like that. If he's so-called that hurt, you get him butt off the mound. And I didn't play that. I'm like, wow, I should be playing that game. But again, Joe Torrey set the line up. He won it. There was another story about the Steinbrenner. Torrey, I caught up in that situation where Steinbrenner knew I was kicking the Yankees, but I was a Yankee killer. I kicked their butts all the time. So Steinbrenner said, you know what? I have a chance to get this guy. I'm going to get him. So I ended up getting me over there. He wanted me to play center field. They wanted Bernie to DH, but Bernie wasn't comfortable with DH. And that was Torrey was this guy. He felt like, I'm not comfortable with DH and I got to play center field. But Bernie was on his way out. He wasn't the gold glove off center field. I was. So I felt I should have been the outfielder and Bernie, but Bernie and like the agent. So they ended up putting Rubens Sierra to to DH and Bernie played out. So that kind of left me out. So I didn't play a whole lot of games there during that time as a Yankee. And I felt I should have been playing more. And I think that was Bernie's last year or something. I think I played three more years after that. Yeah. Cause you went to Cleveland. I went from there. I had a two year contract somewhere in this situation where they traded me to my second year. I had a two year contract with the Yankees, but they ended up my second year. They ended up trading me to the Phillies. I hit 335 over there. I ended up for the Phillies from the Phillies. I know. And then Phillies to the Dodgers. I think I had 306 of the Dodgers. And then from there, I ended up signing a free agent with Texas. And then that's when I ended up in 2007. I ended up starting with Texas and Cleveland needed that. And I went back to Cleveland. And that was a 3-1 lead to Red Sox and the ALCS. CC has sent me a video of you base running. Oh, that, that, that play. I don't know if we could pull the play up, but you were on second base, base at the left field, third base coach holds you up and you give, you give third base coach, you got to see the video. Oh my God. You get a third base coach. A look like what the hell is for? Yeah. But he said he thought the ball, the play was the ball off of this game seven. Check this out, Barley. Down the line. I'm going. I'm fine. Flying. Oh, got him. What are you doing here? And he tried to explain his bad decision. Dude, the boy hit. Okay. The boy is going to come this way. Is this the one you felt I got away? Yeah. This is the one. This is the one that got away, bro. We should. And you had a good jump too. Yeah. Look at the look back right here. Oh, what? What's that? Oh, yeah. I was hot, bro. It's like, dude, how can you stop me right there? I'm the fastest guy on the team. And so Ricochet off the side, he's going to have to set his feet and try to, he probably won't even throw it to the other side. He just told the second. He had to run in and fill the ball and then try to throw it. It was Manny. That was Manny too. Manny, man. Come on. I could have sworn. You know, I thought it Ricochet into Manny's hand. No, that's why he probably held it. That's what I thought. Right. Right. I'm looking. I'm like, the ball is right here. So when I look back at the ball. So obviously they felt this way too because they're showing the angles like, why would you not send them? Look at that. They don't know to give two different angles on a plane like this. You know what I mean? Like, obviously he should have scored. What was Manny like? Manny, he never, he never, he always forgot his wallet. So went out for dinner. So I give him that. That was the picture. He always, but Manny can hit. I mean, sad for Manny. He did the juicing and get caught. He didn't have to. Great hitter. Great hitter. But again, it was, I'm not sure if it's part of that culture at that time for him and probably in Boston or what was going on there. But as you get older, our body is going to do what it does. It's going to, it's going to go into downward spiral, you know, and some people, again, it was about making money. You know, you keep hitting the home runs because they started getting, giving contracts to guys hitting home runs. So, and if you felt like you was on your way down, you wanted that big payday. Guys did something to help them hit more home runs over consecutive years because you get paid for that. You didn't have a long time with them, but bonds. It was a specimen. I mean, it was, it was weird seeing them in the clubhouse and walking around. He's like, dude, this dude is a specimen. And seeing Barry, I've never seen a guy let a ball get right here before you swing the bat. That's, that's uncalled for. That's just unseen. And me and I still remember this play, we was playing the playoffs. It was against, no, it was, I think it was the last series of the year and we was playing against, we was playing against the Braves. Smotes was pitching. So the day before we were running the outfield, the game or whatever and Smotes was out there doing stuff. And he told Barry, I'm going to come right at you. And he's like, bring it, you know, bring it on. I'm like, oh, she's in the next day and all of a sudden it came in warming up. And I'm like, and then Barry hollered out and said, yeah, bring it. He said, I'm going to bring it. We got to the game, right? So we had the first pitch. Smotes threw 98 right there and Barry jumped back, got back in the baddest box, right? Barry looked at it, right? The next pitch, she threw 98 again, almost in the same spot, but a little over the plate. Barry hit that about 14 rows up line drive. Right. And me and Reggie Sanders in the dugout was like, did you just see that? He knocked him, not knocked him down, but he just pushed him back. He made him think about it. Didn't even think about the next pitch was almost the same height, just a little bit over the plate. Going. Light work. Going. We look up, we ain't buried, man, but I looked at Reggie, he was like, did you just see that? So I'm like, yeah, I just saw that. That's not human. Reggie's like, that's not human. No, you can't do that, bro. It was, and just seeing the discipline he had at the plate, man, it's like, and the tough part about it, they didn't want to throw him a strike. And when they did, when they won't strike that through, he was in the seats. Well, the stadium. That was the only guy I played against where we played, it was AT&T Park at the time in San Francisco. And we would play couple feet in front of the warning track in San Francisco at night, which was one of the biggest yards in baseball. And we were positioned correctly because it was either a walk or a deep fly ball that was stopping you, catching at the wall. Always going to be gone. Always gone. And it wasn't nothing, but there was no bleeding. There was no like broken bat base hits. It was none of that. It was just this or that. And I would go out early every day and watch Barry hit. Like this is when I'm 22 years old and you just watching this dude, like, man, incredible. And he looked out for me too. That's dope. I asked Barry this, and I want to ask you this as one of the greatest leadoff batters of all time. Walk us through the process as soon as you're digging in to the batter's box. What are you looking when you thinking? Well, again, I already have my game plan set already before I even got there. I got my game plan, what I'm going to do, but then you got to think about the adjustment. So a lot of guys don't have that secondary adjustment in their mind going on because I always was study pitchers. I understood what their strengths and I knew what my strength was and I knew what my weakness was. So I kind of calculated that all together before I went in there. But I got an assay. Okay, Kenny, you know what this guy does and you have to make an adjustment to where the infielders play. If they plan over here, if I got to look the pull the ball, if I look to hit the other way, but I knew my strengths was the other way. So I tried to figure out where. So in a sense, sometimes what I try to do, if I wasn't bunning, they didn't know I was bunning. I faked like I was bunning to make sure I get this infielders in a certain position. So I know if I get him to move in a little bit, me slapping that thing by him was a lot easier. Or if I knew this guy's slow on his feet, I'm going to bun it right in front of him. Or if they say this guy's going to try to pitch me in, I back off the plate and I say, if you come in, I'm going to look for it. You know, I went deep a few times now. So, but I didn't, you know, it wasn't like I couldn't do it, but I wasn't trying to do it. But if I had to, if you keep busting me in, busting me in, I'm going to back off the plate a little bit. But I always looked at it as if I got off the plate, I still was comfortable away. If I wasn't asked comfortable in, when you back up, there is no more end. Now that when you back up, it's down, it's considered down middle when they throw it in. So if you throw it in, you won't throw that pitch down the middle to me. You got to do it. And that's kind of how my mindset is. I knew what I wanted to do. I knew what the picture, I knew the situation. So I already had that calculated in my head, knowing that there's a secondary. You get two strikes, I just protect, put it in play at that point. Quick hitters first seem to come to mind. Let us know favorite ballpark. Cleaver. Where's ballpark? Oh, it was Milwaukee. Toughest pitch you faced. Toughest. Always say out lighter. Interesting. Do a cutter and a sinker. Lefty. I didn't know which way. I mean, I got off the plate and I just got one. So was he going to fall into the nastiest single pitch you've ever faced? The nastiest single pitch. Probably Mariano. Bro. You think that ball was right there in the last minute? I didn't have that broke my back. It was right down the middle. Yeah. That's the nastiest. Funniest teammate. Probably Alvaro Espinosa. Where'd you put him at? Cleveland. He was to do all kind of like the people's fire, put bubblegum on them, like they shoot strings on Frankster. Oh, he bit everything. He was full. They've been doing that for years. Yeah. All the big guys you playing with or scrappy guys, bitch, Clearing Brawl, who you want on your side? Got three guys. Oh, I got three? First one probably Kyle Farnsworth, the Cubs. The next one probably Jose Mesa. He fighting dirty. Oh. He's bringing something. The third one probably Sheffield. Sheffield? Yeah. I give Sheffield. That tempo. He was, yeah. And you write there with him though when it go down. You're not sitting behind him. I'm right there. I'm going to be on the side of behind Sheffield a little bit because then, no, he can take it. Clearing Brawl, see it. Favorite baseball movie? Probably the Jack and Robbins story. Yeah, that's a great one. Clubhouse playlist. Who making the cut? Probably Biggie. Right there. And this is not on here. I just was curious. It just came to my mind. What was it like facing as a lefty, Randy Johnson in this prime? So, you know, there's a whole lot of stories about Randy and me. He was wild. And as a lefty, I was probably one of the few lefties that actually faced him all the time. I think myself and move on with the two lefties that for everybody else. David Justice said he always said he come up with an element. I'm good. I'm good. He's come up with an element. You know? But at least he was honest about it. It was tough because what pisses me off about facing Randy, he always, once again, I got one thrown at my head. So, in that mindset that one is coming at your head, anything that starts at your head, you're thinking, here it is again. And I still faced him, but I knew if I got on base, I'm still in second and third. He was stolen basis, you know, all the time. And I got my doubles, my triples off of him still or whatever. But I was one of those guys that I'm not going back down. You know, I played against him all the time and I think he hit me once. And he hit me once and it was in San Francisco. And I told Dusty, I said, Dusty, if he hits me, I'm going to go get him. But I said, there's too many times that Dusty said, come on, K-Lo, don't do it. So all of a sudden he threw a slider and it kind of hit me. And I'm like, and heard Dusty, K-Lo, no! I'm going to dig out. So I was like, all right, for you, Dusty, I want it wasn't at my head or whatever. It was kind of like kind of here or whatever. So I'm like, all right, Dusty, I won't go get him. And I was like, I'm fed up. I said, Dusty, before again, I was like, get me. I'm going to go get him. I love it. I appreciate this, K-Lo. I hope this keeps the conversation going for you. I really do. Got to. Let's put something together. We're going to figure out some, because now you got the platforms and social media behind you. We're going to figure out some kind of campaign, man, to put you back on their minds and give you your fly with it. You definitely deserve. Thank you. Well, thank you for having me on all the smoke. I can keep going blowing some smoke out. We can keep doing it. Well, thank you, Kenny. I see why, man. We had a great time today. That's a wrap. All the smoke dug out. Shout out to the Players House out here in Arizona. We'll catch you guys next week.