EFR 934: Unsingle - How to Date Smarter and Create Love That Lasts with Amy Chan

The following is an operation podcast production. I hate to say should in any scenario, but really I think you probably know what you should be doing to heal from this breakup. Like especially for the overachievers are like, okay, I'm gonna do all the things. You don't want to distract yourself. I think it's important that you allow time for your feelings to be felt. And if you don't have a very close relationship with your own feelings and you don't even know if you're feeling it, it requires silence. It requires the ability to be bored, getting to forgiveness. There's so many different stages. You have to feel sad. You have to feel angry. Oh, sometimes when my clients are pedestal in their acts, I'm like, anger is a very necessary pit stop in the healing process. And if you just bypass all of that and just like read the Instagram quotes, which is like forgiveness and like, you know, hating your ex is like poison, like great, but that's not reality based. I think that's what a lot of guys jump to. Yeah, and you know, it helps remove the sting in that immediate term, but what I've always seen is that that pain doesn't just go away because you've pushed it away. It starts to grow inside you. And so it's either going to seep out in your current relationship or one day there will be a big blow up. They one day have all this regret and suddenly they pedestal their ex as the one who got away. Hi, I'm Amy Chan. I'm the author of Unsingle, How to Date Smarter and Create Love That Last and the founder of Renew Breakup Bootcamp. I'm here on Ever Forward Radio. Hey guys, my guest today, Amy Chan, is here to talk about her amazing new book and I have so many amazing authors pretty frequently on the show. Now, if maybe you want to get the hard copy, amazing. Do it. I love the hard copy myself. I'm gonna have it linked for you in the show notes, but one way that I have found to add extra retention and honestly just to help support my reading habits when I'm on the go is Audible. My favorite audio book platform. And right now, as a friend of the show, you can actually get a free 30 day trial of Audible which equates to a book credit. So you could get Amy's book for free here today. You're gonna get a free podcast and a free book potentially. All you have to do is sign up. You can cancel it anytime. You get that 30 day trial free when you head to AudibleTrial.com slash Ever Forward. The app is so user friendly, so easy to use. You can download it on your iPad or in your phone, listen to it on smart devices at home, even listen to personally, I love it like a 1.2 to 1.4 X speed. You will find yourself comprehending more, reading more and continuously living a life ever forward. Linked for you as always in the show notes today, but again, that's A-U-D-I-B-L-E-T-R-I-A-L.com, AudibleTrial.com slash Ever Forward to get your free 30 day trial started today. AudibleTrial.com So I don't know if people know this, but Jocko Willink has actually talked about breakups and heartache and moving on. And he talks about through a breakup quote, to wish them luck, remember who your friends are and to write your feelings down. What's your take on that? Yeah, so there's a lot of research that backs up by just labeling your feelings. It helps make the intensity of the charge a little bit less. So I definitely recommend that. And it also helps you process all that stuff that's in your brain. So you're not just ruminating all night about it. And wishing them well, wishing your ex good luck. I think it's an ideal place to be, but there's stages of it. And I think when we force forgiveness too early, you skip a lot of the processing and it's too contrived. Forcing forgiveness too early. I feel like a lot of people, probably a lot of friends are trying to help their friend through a breakup and they're just like, you know, you gotta forgive and move on. Is when would it be too soon to try to forgive your ex to try to move on? Cause I feel like that's an area someone might jump to first or maybe too soon. Yeah, there's different stages in the grieving process. And it's very, it's kind of similar to the stages of grief when you're grieving someone who has died. And you kind of bounce around, but in the very beginning you are in a state of shock. So chemically you're not in balance anymore, right? The person you're getting your dopamine from, your oxytocin, it's gone. And so you're, you might know logically that the relationship is over, but your body hasn't gotten the memo yet. And so you need to experience the feelings without cycle analyzing yourself or your ex and just allow yourself to feel and release what's coming out. Now, getting to forgiveness, there's so many different stages. You have to feel sad. You have to feel angry. Oh, sometimes when my clients are pedestal in their ex, I'm like, anger is a very necessary pit stop in the healing process. And if you just bypass all of that and just like read the Instagram quotes, which is like forgiveness and like, you know, hating your ex is like poison, like great, but that's not reality based. It's funny to bring up the feeling aspect because I wanted to reference this interview I saw with Andrew Huberman, I believe it was on Modern Wisdom. And he was, of course, he was referencing some scientific study as he does, but basically looking at the people that are most successful after a breakup and male versus female. And statistically speaking, women report more physical and emotional pain during a breakup and after a breakup, but they get over it faster. Whereas most men report never fully really getting over their ex or significantly much, much, much longer. And he then goes on to explain, it's because the typical ability of a male versus a female to allow themselves to fully feel any emotion. Do you think, is there any truth to that? Yeah, and it's definitely in the way that we're socialized, right? When there's a whole like skin knee theory, when a girl, a little girl falls and skins her knee, she's like, oh my God, she cries and her parents like, oh my gosh, it's okay, it's okay. And like kind of coddles her back. If a boy, you know, skins his knees like, be strong, come on, be a man, right? And so when you have these messages of what it is to be a man, to not show emotion, to not cry, and it's repeated to you, not maybe not even by your parents, but by through society, it eventually seeps into your consciousness. And so I see this all the time with my female and male clients, generally speaking, men will try to get back onto the dating apps right away, or they will move into a relationship immediately to almost skip the uncomfortable, painful part. What did I say? To get over someone, you gotta get under someone new. Which is the worst in my center. That's very harsh, it's very brass, but I think that's what a lot of guys jump to. I've even heard that from some of my guy friends going through breakups. Yeah, and you know, it helps remove the sting in that immediate term, but what I've always seen is that that pain doesn't just go away because you've pushed it away. It starts to grow inside you. And so it's either going to seep out in your current relationship, or one day there will be a big blow up. Or I see this a lot in my male clients. They one day have all this regret, and suddenly they pedestal their ex as the one who got away. 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Trust me, take care of your gut, and it will take care of you. Ooh, yeah, yeah. Need to cut off the personal relationship while they're... I wanna reference one other aspect from Jordan Peterson, it quite literally takes humans a year to process, to grieve this significant relationship loss. So are we delusional to think that getting over an X under a year is actually gonna happen? I've really looked at the research on the amount of time. There isn't a study that's like, it's 12 months, because it really depends on the context of your relationship. So I have seen research that supports that intensity of withdrawal after a breakup starts to subside around the six to eight week mark, it reaches its chemical peak and it starts to subside, granted you're not stocking their Instagram, but I think it really depends, right? Like for some breakups, the person who's doing the breaking up has done it in their head, and they've processed it for four or five months. So they're not taking a year at all. When there's a breakup, I'm either breaking it with you or you're breaking out with me. And the person who is doing the breaking up to your point has probably thought about it a couple of days, a couple of weeks, maybe a couple of months. And so they've been kind of softening that blow. So for them, it's no surprise, but for the other person, it is. But I'm curious, what about when it's kind of a spontaneous breakup? What if you and your significant other are at a dinner, at an event, whatever, you have an argument, and that argument kind of lands you both at the conclusion of, oh, this isn't gonna work. We're not compatible. And you both kind of land on that point together. And maybe that actually is your breakup. So it's a surprise to both of you, but also you're both getting there at the same time. Yeah, yeah. Is there a difference? I mean, I think that it's the shock, right? So the person who has a premeditated breakup, and then they hand the memo to their partner that it's over, they aren't going through this immediate shock. Whereas whether you've been broken up with, or you both get in a fight and it ends, there is that shock. There is the, we need to now tell the entire body and the brain that it's over. And because our brains are repetition machines, when the pattern is interrupted, it's like, oh my gosh, something is wrong here. Go get that connection, even if you know it's not good for you. So understanding the biology of what is happening, if you're in the shock stage, and why you're going to yearn for your partner, and you're going to feel very motivated to reach out or look at their Instagram or reread text, is going to be helpful because most people think they're going crazy or that their ex is really that great. So then what is the biology of what's going on during a breakup? You're in a chemical withdrawal. Like they've done studies on people where they put the newly separated in fMRI machines, and they scan their brains, and they found that the same part of the brain activated was the same as a drug user feeding for their fix. So if we're seeing the same thing happen in the brain, can we go about it treating the same way as we would, maybe a substance withdrawal? So yeah, I mean, the cold turkey method, unfortunately, is the best method because if you are like, you know what, we're just going to be friends. We could be friends, right? We're mature, and you're going to them for your good news, or you're going to them to have the fight. You're still getting this emotional charge, right? That emotional charge is what's keeping you bonded, right? It's strengthening those old neural pathways of you two together. So really, you need to create systems for yourself to not have contact with that person for a period of time. And I know it's hard if you co-parent or if you have animals together. And in that case, you want to keep the communication as neutral as possible. But how realistic is that for people? Barring the other examples you just shared, you have similar friends, you probably frequent the same bars or restaurants or gyms or paths, if you're in the same area, I mean, how realistic is it for somebody to completely go cold turkey from their ex and actually live this air courtier's same life? It's really challenging, and it sucks, and it's unfair, but you have to look at your, it's like you have a big open wound after a breakup, if you've been, especially if you've been broken up with. And it might be really unfair that you can't go to that party because Chad's gonna be there or Lisa, but you have to treat this temporary state of an open wound and not add salt to it. And I'm not saying it's forever, but there's a period of time where you have to allow yourself at least in that initial stage to heal. And if you just keep adding salt to the wound, it really prolongs your process of healing. Okay, so I'm thinking if I can choose to adopt the cold turkey method and no communication, no crossing paths, whatever, I'm kind of going, all right, that means I'm just gonna hole up in the house. I'm not gonna leave my apartment, I'm not gonna leave the house, I'm just gonna watch movies and stay home and just focus on work, maybe kind of pour myself into something else, but I'm just gonna cut off as many other opportunities, potential opportunities for me to run into my ex. Is that a healthy approach? No, you don't wanna do that either, right? Look, there might be a chance you accidentally run into your ex, and it's not going to be perfect. I would say try to not purposely run into your ex, but if you also just hole up and watch Netflix and you just stay home all day, you're not actually creating new experiences, you're not learning, so you're not creating new neural pathways. So that person for the next six months is just at home watching Netflix versus that person who spends the next six months learning a new language, taking dance lessons, learning guitar, meeting new friends, going to Bali. That person who's creating all these new, like core memories and experiences, that person is gonna have all these new neural pathways. They are going to be able to get over their ex a lot faster than the person who does nothing. So I'm hearing new as a keyword. So it's not only don't stop your life, but introduce new things. Is that a kind of like plug in the hole in the ship here? Yes, so there's also research on how this impacts rumination. So one of the best things that helps people, especially my high achieving clients, when they're going through a breakup, is they can't stop ruminating, right? They don't like the open loop. They wanna close it. They wanna figure out what's happened. And so they just keep thinking about it. I don't tell them, stop thinking about it. I tell them, you have to pick up a hobby of something that you're not already good at. So it's something that you're going to learn, fail at, get frustrated and then keep trying and you get a bit better every single time. That is going to almost like take up that highway in your brain that was once taken up by this car of rumination, because only one car can fit on this road. And so you put on this, I'm learning something new and getting better at it. And you eventually just stop thinking about the X instead of telling yourself to stop thinking about your X. Is there a specific or are there certain specific activities that actually work better? Could it be, oh, I've always thought about playing the piano. I've wanted to do it forever. So now here's my time to do it. Or should I lean into something that I've never thought about? But scientifically it's proven, hey, this new task, this new hobby, is actually going to help me heal faster or better. So playing a musical instrument or sport, and the key is it's something that you're not already good at. The whole point of it is doing something, it's frustrating, but then you keep doing it and then you get a bit better. That's what is creating those new neural pathways in your brain that's helping you not ruminate about your X. What about travel? If someone wants to, okay, now I'm alone, I'm solo, I'm finally going to go to Bali. Like you said, because my X never wanted to. Is that the same thing here? We're going to have the same advances in the breakup versus I'm not playing a musical instrument or sport? I think travel is definitely, if you can afford the time and money, also additive, because you're going to create these new memories, you will be a different version of yourself of like, oh, I usually travel with someone, and now I'm by myself and I've been able to do it okay. And there's something about rebuilding your identity and sense of self afterwards, which I can think, I think can be very empowering, but I haven't seen the research that travel is now going to make your heart not hurt. I'm all for travel. So if you got an opportunity, jump, take it. Another concept with breakups that comes to mind for me is, I feel like there's one person who's always trying to win the breakup, you know, and that might, it might get you to do something new, it might get you out of the headspace, you know, in that negative headspace, but is that actually working? Or is it just keeping us more stuck because we're trying to maybe do the right thing, but through the wrong series of actions? And when you say win the breakup, do you mean like, I'm gonna get over it before they win? Yeah, you know, like, look at me, I'm traveling, look at me, I went to Bali, look at me, I'm learning guitar, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me. You know, kind of doing these things in hopes that the other person, the person that broke up with you is gonna see, so it's more for them than for you. Yeah, so the root of that is skewed in, you know, it's rooted in a place of trying to still impact your ex. And I'm not gonna say that doing all these things isn't going to have a positive effect, but I think to kind of get back at your ex by showing that you're living the best life, I don't know, I just don't think that your headspace is in the right place. You really want to be doing things for yourself, right? So when I have a client, when I can tell we've really made progress is when the conversations stops being so much about them, are they noticing, did they look at my story, did they not? And it's more about like, I can do this, I'm going to do that. It's more focused on themselves and what they can start doing and they are doing. What about the timeframe then? The first use, I heard you say like six to eight weeks is kind of what it takes really? Not to get over someone, but that crazy withdrawal feeling that you have after a breakup. That's kind of the biochemical response. Yeah, it hits a peak and it starts to subside. So then what is something realistic, maybe one or two things that, or even evidence-based in your experience that we can do in the first 30 days that are going to help us the most? So it's the boring stuff, unfortunately. It's like, if your sleep is bad, you typically don't want to eat because your body's in a state of alert. So it's like, I don't care about eating, I need to survive. You need to force yourself to be eating, sleeping. You want to be around people and you want to also set your friends up for success on how to support you. So a lot of your friends love you. They're gonna try to give you advice. They're gonna say things like, it happened for a reason. That's not helpful, it makes it worse. So just let them know, like right now, I'm processing this. I just need to talk about it without being shamed, judged, or given advice on how to fix it. Yeah, what about the friends? It makes me think of a couple of different things. So let's say you're in a long-term relationship, right? You probably have overlapping friends, the same friends, maybe other couples, and you break up after a year, two, three years. What do the friends do when like, I'm friends with you, but I'm also friends with you. Does the guy have to side with a guy? Does the girl have to side with a girl? How do the friends navigate the breakup? It's so hard and there's no one answer, but as a general rule of thumb, you have to look at this immediate time after a breakup the next three to four months as, again, that open wound time. And so as a friend, whoever has been hit the hardest. So like if there's a couple and maybe person A cheated and person B is completely devastated, you would probably amp up your support for person B. Let me ask you something. Is your morning routine actually fueling your performance or is it just barely keeping you afloat? Because most people see they're running on caffeine, spikes, sugar crashes and empty calories. But for me and my wife, we both have been loving this in our cups for years now. Our mornings have completely changed ever since we started using Morning Fix from Strong Coffee Company. It is this amazing, delicious and oh so nutritious vanilla latte that you make at home. It's more than just amazing, delicious, real organic coffee. 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Right, right, yeah. When they're a really nice person, and you guys were best friends, but you want totally different things that would make a long-term relationship impossible. That's a different type of hard, it's a different type of grieving. I don't think one is worse than the other, it's just different. Are you seeing the science show that it takes the same time, kind of biochemically that six to eight weeks, I just broke up because they cheated on me, versus I just broke up because we're just not compatible. Is it still gonna take, is my body basically still going through the same withdrawal process for that same two period of time? Yeah, so the studies I looked at for that whole six to eight week thing, it wasn't based off like this type of breakup. So I think just to think about it, if you're in a withdrawal, if there's shock, I think if you've been talking about it, thinking about it for a while, you see it's coming, it might be less of a shock for you. So what about if you both decide that you wanna go on a break for a while? Sometimes it's one person telling the other person, hey, I wanna go on a break. But how it happened aside, should we still treat it like a breakup? Should we go, we're going on a break, then we're gonna kind of talk about getting back together, should it still be that six to eight week period to biochemically allow our bodies to go through the withdrawal process, to then have a more clear rational mindset to, is this the relationship I wanna be in or not? Yeah, so these breaks, whether it's a break, or it's an actual breakup, you didn't wanna term it a breakup. I don't think you should reconsider getting back with your ex or the person you're on a break with until you have clarity. And that- What does that look like? So if you're in the withdrawal, right, it's the first few weeks, and your body is craving the other person because you've been bonded for however long, you're not gonna make rational decisions. You are in a dopamine deficit, you are craving connection, and you are in a survival state. So you are going to think of all the reasons why to justify why you should get back together. Whereas if you allowed some time away from each other, when you're not in that withdrawal, you could have a lot more clarity. Okay, so I don't know if you said this for a reason, but your body is kind of going through the draws, your body is wanting this other person. What do you think is happening? Is there a difference for a breakup, for someone maybe who has not been intimate, has not had sex, has not had anything for personal reasons, religious reasons, whatever, but you still go through that breakup, and it still, it hurts, it's hard. Maybe you've got the same friends, you have a house together, whatever. Is the physical component playing a bigger role here to the breakup than someone who has not been physical with their partner? Well, when you're physical and you're intimate and you orgasm, there's a whole host of bonding chemicals that come out, right? Mother nature is just making you try to bond and procreate. And that's why some people who veer more anxious in their relationships get very hooked on someone right after. Even if they don't even know the person, you don't like them, that was me. Like if I had sex with anyone, I'd be in love with them immediately. So I had to be very careful with who I physically was intimate with. And some people can have sex and it doesn't impact them at all. So there isn't just one answer that fits everyone. For some who, maybe they went through something really hard and that other person was supportive and they've never had someone treat them so well and they didn't have physical intimacy, but that bonding was so important, that could be extremely devastating for someone to lose. Is hooking up with your ex detrimental or helpful to the breakup process? Do I have to answer that? Is it possible? Is it possible? Because it happens, right? People break up, but you still have that physical connection. You still run into each other. And I'm sure after every time, it's never happened to me. I like, oh, this was a bad idea. It's never gonna happen again. Are you just doing both a disservice there? Can you do it? Don't do it. Don't do it because you're just reinforcing the old-year-old pathways, right? You're just setting back the clock to step one, like you just broke up. But it happens. And if you relapse, this is also something that will happen and people get really upset about it because especially if they're high achieving, they're like, oh my God, I shouldn't have done that. Relapse is also part of the process of change. But what is important is that you recognize, okay, this is what caused me to relapse. Then you recommit to the goal. My goal is to move forward from this person. And then you ask yourself, okay, what decisions do I have to make differently so this doesn't happen again? What do you think is the decision people make most often that is the biggest hindrance to their healing process during a breakup? They try to be friends. Friends with their ex? Yeah. And it's definitely possible. Like I'm friends with a lot of my exes, but there needs to be a period of time of transition because I've had clients who stayed friends and it's two years later. And then the other person moves on and they are with someone else. And they come to me and they're devastated like the breakup just happened. I'm like, you guys never broke up. Your body, your mind never knew that there was a breakup. You're still doing the same thing, sharing good news, watching Netflix with them. So yeah, you are just starting right now. So then how do you know if you're actually moving on or avoiding? Am I doing these things? Am I plugging the hole so to speak? Am I giving myself the six to eight weeks and my trying new things just for the sake of trying to check these boxes versus avoiding the emotions and the feelings and the memories and things that I hate to say should in any scenario, but really I think with a breakup it's so personal and so relatable that you probably know what you should be doing to heal from this breakup. Does that apply here? Yeah, I mean, like especially for the overachievers are like, okay, I'm gonna do all the things. You don't wanna distract yourself. I think it's important that you allow time for your feelings to be felt. And if you don't have a very close relationship with your own feelings and you don't even know if you're feeling it, it requires silence. It requires the ability to be bored and not have your TikTok or whatever podcast playing and just being by yourself. And guess what? When you are by yourself, give it an hour and put a timer on, stuff will come up. So true. Yeah, that's the thing about silence, right? It always has something to say. Yeah, yeah, it's a pretty good teacher. Always, it's the best. It's the best one. So I've heard you kind of mention high achievers, we call them high performers. I think a lot of people listening and watching my show, we care about our life, our wellbeing, our relationships, our health. But sometimes I think we can have the Achilles heel of rationalizing things a little bit more quickly because it's good for me or I need to do this in order to advance to move the needle, right? So what do you think are some of the biggest red flags then that us driven people, high performers, have that we're rationalizing? When it comes to breakups or dating? Breakups. There's two tendencies after a breakup and you need to know where you are in the spectrum. There are those who either pedestal their ex or there are those who vilify their ex and both keep you hooked on your ex. So it's like they were the best thing ever or I hate their guts. Yeah, so the best thing ever side. The one that got away kind of thing. Right. There's a psychological phenomenon called the fading effect bias and it's a survival mechanism. And it causes us to, after a breakup, if you tend to pedestal them, it makes the bad parts, the very negative emotions fade. So for example, say you went on a vacation to Mexico and for six days you were fighting silent treatment, but then on the last night there was a romantic dinner on the beach and really crazy wild sex. After the breakup, when you are thinking about the relationship, you will almost all, the six days of fighting will go in black and white and that dinner at the beach and the wild sex will be in high saturation of color. And it's our, you know, our brains wiring to cause us to be able to see the positive and not just have all the negativity just keep us down and to help us move forward. So when I have a client like that, what I have them do is write a list of all the reasons why it didn't work out and we have to really get into reality because whether you're vilifying or pedestaling, you're not based in reality and it is very hard to move forward if you're not dealing with reality. That is probably the ultimate bitter pill here, right? When it comes to a breakup. Yeah, we're not living in reality. We're stuck in the past ruminating, you know, YYYY, how, how, how, or we're just catastrophizing the future of, oh, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna be alone for the rest of my life. They're probably out there. Who else are they being with? Who else are they hooking up with? What are they doing? I think that's probably like the better analogy here for all problems in life, right? We're stuck ruminating in the past, trying to change things that we couldn't and we're living in fear and anxiety, the future about things that have not happened and might not ever. So yeah, we can come back to the here and the now just be where your feet are. Yeah. It's good for your wellness, good for your mental health and good for a breakup. Yeah, yeah. And the whole vilifying thing is, it's a way of dealing with the pain, but it doesn't help you move forward. And I know I did this, like after my breakup, I spent two years, like anyone who had listened, I'd be like, he did this and I was such a loving person and I just tried to recruit people into my narrative because my holding onto the pain was a way of holding onto that relationship. It was also a way of me connecting with other people because then they would be like, oh my gosh, you're right. Oh, you're feeling validated. Yeah, yeah. And you can get stuck there for a very long time. Okay, so then now we're moving forward. Now I know you've got this incredible formula you were even sharing with me. We're ready to move on. We're getting back out in the dating world. I'm ready to go from, I think your words casual to committed, right? Yeah. Okay, so lay it on us. What is the approach? What is the formula to actually get back out there and to find and keep a loving, committed relationship? So most people are only one to two adjustments away from being able to create a healthy relationship. And a lot of people are like, no, like dating sucks in my city or at my age or whatever it is, but they are working harder using a system that doesn't work. So the more they double down on that system, the more they get results that don't work. And then they create stories of like, oh, dating's not for me or there's something wrong with me. And so what I've created is the dating funnel and like think of it like the marketing funnel, the triangle and on the very top, there's prospecting. There's five stages. Prospecting is your lead generation. That's your way of meeting people. And I always say you should have three sources of lead generation. Dating apps, great. Add two more. Maybe you join a running club. Some or an activity where you'll see the same group of people for a period of time. The second stage is prospecting. That states one to two. And what I do with my clients is I look at where are they getting stuck in the funnel? And then we troubleshoot the right thing. Because if they're having a problem going from date one to two, that's a very different problem than going from dates 18 to commitment. So we need to troubleshoot the right thing. How many dates does it take to get into a committed relationship? So yeah, so after prospecting then discovery, which is dates one to two, the next stage is what I call evaluation. And that states three to 20 or about three months. And this is where you start to see what their core values are. Is there a compatibility in what you want in your future? And then there's a part where there's good enough. And the only way to make it great is to actually jump in and commit. A couple of things there. Three to 20 sounds like a pretty big range in dates. Also the last part, it kind of sounds like, are you saying, is that compromise we're learning? I forget the word you used exactly. So after evaluation would be commitment. Okay. And commitment can mean different things, right? It could mean like, okay, we're gonna be sexually and emotionally monogamous. Some will be like, okay, we're gonna soft launch on Instagram. It's gonna depend, but there is a conscious effort of like, okay, and a conversation of like, we're gonna deepen the level of investment into this, what we're building. I wanna go back to this three to 20 thing. I'm sorry. I just feel like I've been out of the dating pool for so long. So this is, it's probably a very novel to me. People are probably screaming, this makes total sense for me, but three to 20, I'm going, all right, if I'm on date three, you're saying I can probably get to commitment after that date or I just do one to 20? No, sorry. The range is possible. During the rate, during three to 20 is you are in the evaluation stage. Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah, you're not committing up to date three. I'll say, I'm thinking, man, all right, this is date three, this is gonna be the one, or if it's not, okay, then I gotta go to 20. No, your first two dates, it's a vibe check. Yeah. What do you think people are doing wrong the most right now in the dating scene as it relates to kind of your formula here? They're dismissing people too quickly and they're putting weight on the things that don't actually matter in a long-term relationship. Like what? So there's a confusion of deal breakers and preferences. And I think social media is part of the reason, you know, we can blame. A deal breaker is something that would make a healthy relationship impossible because there's a fundamental difference. For example, I want children, they don't. I'm growth-oriented and I believe in therapy and retreats and the other person's completely not about it. Preference is things like hair color, heights, their job, do they like skiing? Are they a Leo or a Gemini? Those are preferences. They will not make or break a relationship and people are confusing them. So I think there's this whole movement of like, I wanna be like picky and have all these standards. Being picky is not something to be proud of. Having standards of values and how you're treated amazing, but we're confusing the two and it's causing us to really chase after people who have shiny qualities. And I see this a lot with women. They're like, I want a relationship. No, like I'm serious, I want a family. And then I ask them what are the parameters on their dating app and they're like six feet and higher. And I'm like, are you bad at math? Because 14% of the population in North America are six feet or taller. You take away the single ones, that's 7%. Like your dating pool has turned into a puddle. So all of these women are chasing after this puddle of people. Okay, good luck. What an interesting analogy for the dating pool. Do you think I'm gonna go to girl math versus guy math here? Is girl math keeping girls single longer as guy math ruining relationships? Do we need to have this hard evaluation of how we actually calculate value? Preferences versus what'd you call it? Deal breakers. Yeah, I think we need to understand that what makes someone great at dating and that could be someone good looking, charismatic, bubbly, personality, extroverted, doesn't mean that they're great at relationships. And there are two different sets of skills. Some people have both, but you can definitely meet people who are great at dating and terrible at relationships. I know for me, I mastered dating because I learned all the tricks, right? I read the game, I read everything. And I'm like so good at getting the first date. I couldn't get date five though because inside I was so self-conscious, I was so insecure. I didn't have any emotional tools and eventually people would figure it out. What do you think, now we'll kind of put this in the place of, all right, we're putting ourselves out there, we're going on a date. I wanna understand the psychology, the mentality, the perception really of both sides. Let's say male female going out on a date. The guy picks Wednesday at 2 p.m. What do you think the girl is thinking? How is she interpreting that value as a potential committed relationship versus, oh, why didn't he pick Saturday at 8 p.m.? I think it depends how much you like the person. So I can't speak. Even on a first date. I can't speak for all women, but if I was like, I don't know, like, do I like this person? Do I not? Am I interested? At 2 p.m. I don't care. But if I had a date already and it's a second date or maybe I like stalk their social media and I've now projected all my hopes and dreams into this make-believe person, I'll be like, oh my gosh, why didn't I get the Friday night 7 p.m. slot, right? How can one go about, I guess, strategizing their dating game if they wanna go, all right, I wanna make sure that I'm getting up to 20, right? I wanna, how can I kinda like, okay, this number date needs to be this type of date. How can I bring myself, grow myself to like give myself the best potential for this formula that you've had? So on a first date, there are things that you can do to increase the chances of a connection. So actually doing something that gets, elevates your heart rate, can increase someone's feelings of attraction. Have you ever heard of the Shaky Bridge experiment? No, I have heard about on a date, go and see a scary movie, because it gets into kinda naturally, wanna like cling to you more? Yeah, very. Fear, fear, fear. Yeah, so there's a study that they did on the Kaplanos Suspension Bridge in BC, and it's a very wobbly bridge. So they had a female person at the very end do like a quiz survey thing, and these males were walking across, and they had guys go on the Shaky Bridge, and afterwards a researcher was like, oh, if you have any questions, you wanna follow up, here's my number. The guys that did the Shaky Bridge versus the stable bridge, same woman, same researcher, there was 50% more likely to contact the woman afterwards. And the reason why, similar to the scary movie thing is, the elevated heart rate and these physical symptoms of like anxiety or fear, they misattribute that as chemistry. Yes, chemistry and attraction. So like look, use this for good, not for evil. I was gonna say so, someone could take that information and go, okay, all right, cool, to make myself seem better than thou, or like better on a date, I just gotta get them afraid. Yeah, yeah, use it for good, not for evil, but like how can we use this in regular life? Like doing an activity or even like a walk, and then going to, you know, grabbing a drink at a bar, great first date. You don't have to have a drawn out five course dinner sitting face to face like that. Like I just think there's way too much pressure and some people aren't good at first dates. They're nervous, but it doesn't mean that they're a bad partner. I think people might also be wanting to get there faster these days. Let's say for example, middle-aged guy, he's like 48 years old and I wanna have kids, I wanna settle down and I'm tired of not finding, you know, my partner, my wife, whatever. And so on date one, they're asking the hard-hitting questions. How many kids do you want? What's your credit score? I feel like on one hand, they know what they want and they're trying to just like weed through matches that probably aren't gonna be good for them. But on the other hand, they might be jumping the gun too soon and not giving them or this other person an opportunity to kind of get there together. Is that true? Yeah, and I see this a lot. People don't wanna waste their time. But you can want the thing faster, but your strategy of getting there isn't gonna yield you the results you want. I can want a six-pack and being like, well, why not, like I did 100 sit-ups, why don't I have it? It sucks, but there is a process of dating and courtship and connection and building rapport and you can't rush that. And if you can't tolerate that it's gonna take time, I think you need to do a check with yourself and how attached you are to the outcome because that energy is going to come out. The other person is going to feel like they are just an object to fit into your master plan and timeline. And I call it conquest energy. They won't know the word to put it unless they read my book, but it feels off. So if you have people who you thought it was a great day and they're just like, you know what, something felt off, that kind of desperation energy that comes when you have that timeline, it comes out. Yeah, I feel like guys can smell desperation or they, I think guys misconstrued what they believe to be desperation more quickly than women on a first date. What's your take on that? I don't know, man. I've been on both sides. I've been the conquester. I'm like, ooh, chisel jaw line, good job. I like this lifestyle, you're it, right? And then like, oh, why don't they want another date with me? And I've also been the person on the other side. I remember going on a date with this guy and like it was almost like he wasn't there. It was just like, cute Asian girl. Okay, she's got a good job. Like she's smart. And suddenly this energy of like, he was so into me. He liked me so much, so fast without knowing who I was. I was like, I felt like I was prey. I'm like, oh my gosh, like I'm getting such a crazy physical reaction of disgust. And it was nothing was wrong with the guy. There's a good looking guy. Like I just felt it. What do you think, let's go with guys here. What do you think guys are doing wrong the most that they are trying to do coming from a place of good attention? I think when they're nervous or they think someone's really cute or pretty or attractive, they talk about themselves a lot and they're trying to impress. And in that performance of showing their value, it comes across in a very contrived way. And the other person doesn't feel connected. What about for the person who was getting back out there after like, let's say a five year relationship, 10 year marriage, are the rules different for them? Is there, does the time from your last play in the dating world matter or the rules always the same? I think if you are getting out of a divorce or a breakup, especially if it's been a long time, you have to really manage your expectations. The next person you date is not gonna be your person. So you just need experience dating again because dating is a skill. You can learn the skill of being good at dating which is how to have a conversation that flows, how to build rapport, how to make someone feel seen and respected. And so if you don't haven't brushed up on those skills, you're gonna have to go out there and practice and you probably need to make friends of the opposite sex. That's a tricky area. Yeah, I'm all about the friend zone. Yes, yeah, there can be, once I could think there's more going on, you could get into the friend zone, or about people who do that and then just one day they realize, oh, actually we have feelings for each other. Like, is that realistic? Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a lot of examples in cases of people who start off friends and then at a point in time, they are like, actually there's something more here. And there's some who are friends and one person secretly likes the other, but they never talk about it. And so all of these feelings are festering and then they have the conversation and the friendship blows up. So I recommend, so there's two parts to this. If you have not had success dating, if you've had no dates, no romantic relationships for a long period of time or maybe ever, your first stop isn't to go and date and try to score a girlfriend or boyfriend. You need to interact with the opposite sex. Understand they're psyche, make friends. And I have, when clients have been cheated on, I have a few female clients who they were cheated on a few times and they have an idea that all men will cheat. I'm like, my next step for them is not 0-100 to go find a boyfriend. I'm like, you need to make friends who are males who treat you well that you can change this belief that men are pigs. Yeah. What was like one of the biggest eye-openers you had in this new research for the new book? Was there something that just like blew your mind as to, oh, wow, I didn't know this was like that much of a thing or was maybe a belief that you had really challenged? Yeah. So it's this research that was done by this professor, Samantha Joel, and she put together a team of 85 scientists and they analyzed data from over 11,000 couples. And they were trying to understand like, what qualities matter in a happy relationship? And all of these things like job, age, education level actually had zero ability to predict if a relationship would be happy or stable. But what actually did was if you felt your partner was committed to you, if you felt appreciated by your partner and how well you handled conflict together. So again, it's those quiet qualities, not the shiny qualities, it's the stuff that doesn't make it on the grid. What's your biggest hope for people now getting back out into the dating field? That the right person for you might not come in the package you expect. And they might be shorter than you planned or quieter than you imagined. They might be different from your type, but dismissing people too early on or faulting them for something that actually is so trivial is blocking people from being able to create a healthy, happy connection. Most of my clients who I have them do actually do a dating experiment where they have to date nine different people. Like days one through nine, you got a different date lined up. They can do it in a period of time, it doesn't have to all be at once, but they have to date nine different people. There's some rules around it. You can't get into a relationship with any of them and you have to date people outside of your type. So if I'm working with someone who has an age requirement, a guy who's like, I wanna get married, but my age range is 25 to 29, I'll make them date someone who's older than them. The woman who has a height requirement dates someone who's shorter. And I have them experience dating people who show that they're kind, conscientious. They're optimizing for other things. And because there's no pressure of getting in a relationship, it makes them less future tripping and trying to be like, are you my person? It allows them to be more present. And 80% of my clients end up in a relationship. And they always 80% who do the whole thing. That's huge. Yeah. And they always say the same thing. They say, I'm with someone I would have never given a chance to. They're so not my type. I can't believe we're here. Yeah. Wow. And they don't understand that there's a blocker. Like one friend, she's a friend who turned into a client and she had a thing. She had to only date entrepreneurs because she's an entrepreneur. And she's like, no, they understand my crazy lifestyle. It's a chaotic. And I had her, I'm like, you have to date someone who works at nine to five. And so she dated this guy. She's like, no, like he's fine. Like we had a good conversation. I'm like, go again. She's like, would go again. I'm like, go again. Like it seems like you guys like doing the same things. And I remember like after many dates and she's like, I don't know. Like he's had the same job for like his whole life. He's going to get a pension. And I'm like, but this is complimentary to your chaos. They've been together for five years now. Yeah. As an entrepreneur, I can tell you it definitely bodes well to have a partner that has the nine to five that brings the stability. I mean, I live in chaos. I can only imagine if both of us were. Who knows, maybe it'd be fun. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. But what's your dating life look like these days? I'm in a relationship. We've been together for six and a half years. It's my one and only healthy relationship I've ever been in. Yeah. What was your longest one before that? About three years. And how long were you single from that one to this one? Five years. Five years. Yeah. I was in New York dating a storm. Like it was just like nonstop. And I was like, I was that girl that I write about. I'm like, I was telling people like I'm ready for a relationship. And the funny thing is like after five years of just like dating so much. I go to one of my friends. I'm like, okay, I have to increase my lead generation. So my friends are super connector. And I was like, hey, do you have anyone to set me up with? And he's like, oh my gosh, I have the perfect person. He's kind. He's smart, really funny. And then he shows me his picture. And I look at this, his phone. And I'm like, oh, it's this guy. He's like half a grand. He's leading back on a chair. And I had this rule back then. I'm like, don't date finance guys. And so I was like. You're looking to New York. I was like, in my hand, like this guy's the finest guy. I'm like, do you have any else? And my friend never tried to set me up with anyone ever again. A year later, I'm on an app and I'm talking to the sky and it showed that we had the same friend in common. So I messaged my friend. I'm like, hey, do you know this guy named Paul? And my friend calls me right away. He's like, you dummy. I tried to set you up with him and you said no. And like it turns out that photo, like he's not a finest guy. He was like face planted on the bunny hill skiing for the first time. And so I went to the photo of him. So it just shows, right? Like we have these ideas of what we want, what we need. And it could block us from the love that is actually right there in front of you. Is there in your experience more probability of us finding a committed partner through a friend versus like a dating app? Or what's the most common approach that has the highest probability of commitment? So unfortunately from the latest research I saw, their dating app relationships don't, like higher breakups than if you were to meet in other ways. Regardless of the app, just like online dating in general. Yeah. Why do you think that is? I'm not sure. And like obviously there's exceptions, right? I met my partner on a dating app, but sometimes people can also present themselves in a certain way. Whereas if you're meeting through people or through community, there's that vouch factor. And it's like a lot harder for them to just like, go simply a total loser because there's repercussions from the community. That's a good point. That's a good point. Dating apps were really kind of just becoming a thing when I met my now wife, we've been together for 12, 13 years. And I remember my brother did this commercial, this ad with Bumble. And he was single at the time. He's married, has a kid as well. And I went on, he had to bring a friend on or like a loved one to critique your dating profile. That was wild. It's crazy to put yourself in the shoes of someone who is trying to put themselves out there. The choices they make of title, bio, the main photo versus the supplemental photos, things that you use to describe yourself, just outside looking in, I think is a great tool to have. Get somebody to analyze, critique, just glance at your dating profile. Because man, it was unique as a brother, as a bigger brother or older brother because I'm just gonna shit on him all the time anyway. But you can also support him in his efforts to find love. But yeah, it was just wild. Like you think this is a good photo? You think saying this is actually gonna attract the one? Like come on. Yeah, yeah. At my dating boot camps, we have an exercise where people can show their profiles and I'll help them optimize. And the way I do it is I tell them to first tell me three words they want someone to think of when they see this profile. And I had this one girl, she's like, okay, family oriented, kind and smart. And then I pull up her profile and then I ask everyone to tell me what they see. And it's like photo after photo. Like first one was like her drinking champagne like out of the bottle. And it's like another party photo, another club photo, another Vegas photo. I'm like. Missing the mark. I'm like, yeah. You're not saying family oriented, right? You're saying party girl. And that's, yeah. And that's fine, but you're gonna attract a different audience, right? Yeah. So, okay, that's a good point on the dating apps or the version of ourselves we're putting out there. You're saying ideally if we're looking for commitment, we should put the version of ourselves that is six months a year down the line, not the version of us now. I think you should be aware of what is the impression that I wanna make on someone. And if it is a long-term relationship, it's probably things like emotionally available, intelligent, growth-minded. And then ask yourself if your profile is reflecting that. Interesting. Yeah, I bet a lot of people are revamping their profiles right now. I hope so. Or hey, here, pass to a friend, need a line. Who do you think has the best dating scene? Which city in America? Do you think has the best dating scene? And who's struggling the most? So it's gonna depend on if you're a guy or a girl. Because if you're a guy, dating in New York is great for you. Why is that? So you wanna look at the ratios of men to women. So in cities like New York, where there's a lot more, this is research from John Berger, he's an economist, and he looked at college-educated singles. So in New York, there's more college-educated single women than there are men. And what happens in that ratio is men tend to commit a lot less and marriages a lot later. There's higher infidelity and there's less courtship. Whereas if you go to Silicon Valley, where there's a lot more college-educated men than women, there's a lot more courtship, there's less divorce, they commit a lot more early. I have a friend who lives up there and she would like to move, but she's like the dating pool here is so much more in my favor because of the eligible men and the numbers game. And it's so tricky, it just goes to show you what you're currently valuing most in your life. She has way more friends and support and even job opportunities down here in Southern California than she does up in Northern California, but she's staying just out of the probability of meeting a guy. But you know what, that makes me think of she's serious. Right? Just like if you wanna optimize for making money, then you're gonna do things to help you. But I'll have clients who are like, yeah, I really want a relationship and they have a really full life and a busy business, but they don't make any changes in the amount of time or effort that they're putting to now get this new goal. But if your goal has changed, your strategy is gonna have to change too. That's a really, really good point. That's a really good point. So I'm wondering if a lot of people now are, if you're male or female, I gotta move to New York. I gotta move to Silicon Valley. Would you advise that? Would you advise to maybe, if you're that serious to look at the data, where's the better numbers game for me? Should I up and move my life if I care that much about getting into a committed relationship? I mean, if that is accessible to you, I don't know if it is for a lot of people, but there is a, this might be very controversial. Whether you're looking for a job or you're looking for a partner, there is a market value. And in an area where you are highly prized because there's not enough of you, that is gonna be better for you, right? You might be like, I don't like the standards of beauty in Miami. I'm really more like the Brooklyn type of beauty. Like it's more, you know, less, I don't know. Bohemian chic, then, you know. Yeah, then your market like, so you're probably gonna have more luck in the area where they prize that versus on Miami Beach. So I just like want people to be reality based on, yeah. We mentioned reality a couple of times. And I think we might have even said delusion, I don't know, but a few of my single friends, and I can't speak wholeheartedly because I've been in a relationship for so long. But I feel like there's just this really fine line of being real with what you want, real with what you're willing to put up with in the dating scene, much less in a relationship, versus delusion. Right. Would you agree? And what are we splitting hairs here between living in reality versus living in delusion? I think there are people who are living in delusion. And... How do you know if you're delusional dating? You need people to give you honest feedback. And if it's not your friends, hire a coach. And I have to help some of my clients understand that this list of what their standards are are not realistic. They're gunning for the 10 out of 10 in looks, in success. And I'm like, you're not a 10 out of 10. Sorry, you're not. Ooh. And like work on yourself. And you know what? And I'm not just talking like trading looks and money. Like I think that right now is an amazing time for men because women aren't optimizing for money. Right? Like my parents' generation, my mom had to marry a guy who had a job and could make money. Right? Yeah, yeah. This is a very different time now. And I have a lot of female friends who are dating or married to men who don't make as much. But those guys are so incredibly supportive and emotionally available and loving. And so it's totally okay. And the thing is learning emotional intelligence. Those are skills you can learn. Right? Listening to this podcast is helping you. It's free. So if you're not having any good luck out there because you didn't have the traditional markers of what makes you an attractive mate, there are things that you could do to increase your skills. Finances are huge in the dating world and the relationship world. Do you think that financial stereotype of the man has to be the provider and the woman is not or not as much? Do you think is that the biggest barrier to successful dating right now? Successfully committed relationships? I think roles are changing and it's taking time for people to understand what works for them. So Gen Z is not dealing with this issue, right? They're like, who pays on the day? It doesn't matter, right? I think millennials and high above, they were socialized with the idea that a man is a provider. He provides a home and the money and the girl cooks. And so if you are dating and someone isn't in that role, but there's a lot of other great things there, it's a total like mind fuck. And so I've had women who are very successful and they're like, oh, but like this guy, like doesn't make that much money. And like, you know, I've always wanted a guy. But you don't need to, he takes care of your heart. So what's the problem? Change your reframe this traditional mindset that actually isn't serving you. Okay, I wanna go a little bit further here. Because I feel like finances is like the primary, secondary, or it could go either way really, cultural. I feel like with a lot of these cultural biases that feed into the financial bias and stereotypes of the roles. And so this generation right now, let's say you're out there, you're dating and you're over it, right? He doesn't need to make more than me. I don't need to make more than him. Just, you know, if we're, if, would you say, I think he opens your heart. Yeah, he takes care of your heart. He takes care of your heart. Okay, so if both hearts are being taken care of, you can get past that, but then you bring them home. And let's say, you know, you're of different races, different ethnicities, there's different religion, there's just different cultural backgrounds that heavily influence, especially the generation above. Now you have to kind of get that generation, your parents on board with this. And sometimes you can't. And I know a lot of people struggle with that and that can break apart what otherwise could be a great thriving, happy, committed relationship. Like you did the work, you're on the same page, but our parents aren't. Yeah. What do you do then? I mean, I'm not gonna deny how hard that situation is, but your parents aren't the one in the relationship. And there's a part in time where you can either live under your parents' shadow and resent your life and the people that you're with because you're following what your mom and dad wants, or you're like, I am out of the nest and it's gonna be hard and they're not gonna like it. And they might even disown me for a few years, but I'm going to do this because I'm being true to myself. Everyone with a different culture and ethnicity background has to be just like yelling at the podcast player right now. And I kind of speak a little bit from experience, and my wife is Iranian-American, she's Persian, and I was met with a lot of different, very welcoming, warming family, but just, I'm Caucasian and they're Iranian-American. Just they're gonna come different standards. There's different expectations, different cultural and religious kind of preconceived notions, biases. And it took some kind of finagling. But I think ultimately, my determination, the white guy didn't go anywhere for years and years and years kind of showed, I think, another side that mattered to their daughter that maybe wasn't as much on the table. If you guys are watching or listening, I love you. There's no harm, no foul. Just the in-laws are great, but just kind of speaking a little bit personally. Yeah. What do you want to close with? One takeaway. If the listener, the viewer is gonna walk away with one thing to mull over, one thing to apply, that's gonna really move the needle most in getting through the breakup, getting back out there, getting committed, their relationship, their happy heart, what is it? How would you kind of wrap this all up in a beautiful bow? I think the greatest lesson in this lifetime is to practice opening your heart even when it hurts, especially when it hurts. So if you've had a heartbreak, the automatic reaction is to, I'm just gonna put barriers around my heart so I can't get hurt again. And a lot of people walk around like this forever. But I think truly moving forward is to build your muscle of resilience. And like it hurt, there was good and bad, and like I'm gonna grow from this. And I'm not going to let a negative experience from the past stop me from creating love in the future. Beautiful answer. I love that so much. And I think it's a perfect segue. Might even kind of piggyback a little bit. Everford, those two words, how do you live a life ever forward through this lens of relationship and opening up your heart? How can we learn to move ever forward? Our relationships aren't here to just make you happy. They're here to help you become more conscious. And so it's not just gonna be a full ride of pleasure. And the ups and the downs and the period of times where like you can't stand your partner, you haven't had sex for five months, you don't just throw it away. You continue to go through these ups and downs. And sometimes that might mean exiting a relationship. Sometimes that might mean working hard or working harder in the relationship. But I think reframing are what a relationship is and what a commitment is, is it's human. And with human, it's messy. And they're not perfect and you're not. But it's worth it. I love that answer. I think one of the greatest things we can learn to do in life in general, regardless of single or with a relationship for any goal, for any purpose, is if you can learn how to change your mind, then anything and everything is possible. And you realize your biases, your preconceived notions, your ignorance, your ego, your hopes, your aspirations, nature, nurture, identity. And you really truly learn who you are, what matters most to you, what you have been pouring into and where others, family, culture, religion, society has been pouring into you and you think you're in control. Just learning how to change your mind in the slightest little way is the biggest game changer for all of us, especially come to learning how to move forward in life. If you can do that, especially in relationship, man, you're gonna love you and you're gonna love, you're gonna love love, truly. Yeah, for sure. Well, this has been so much fun. So good to see you again. Where can my audience go to connect with you, maybe work with you, get the book. Of course, it will be in the episode resources and the podcast show notes and here on YouTube in the video description box. Yeah, so my new book on single, How to Date Smarter and Create Love at Last is available at all bookstores. I'm at Ms. Amy Chen on Instagram and you can get bonuses actually on like, how to, oh, first date assessment, a partnership formula by going to mssamichen.com slash unsingle. Do you have an audio book version? I do, yeah. Did you read it? I am about to. Oh, okay, all right, all right. Love me a good audio book. I love reading the book and getting the audio book version, especially when the author does it. I feel like sometimes they do little side quests, you get what's written in there, but you know, hey, actually, since I wrote this, here's some new science or a new thought kind of thing. Can't wait to read it, can't wait to listen to it. And actually, if you guys want to get the audio book for free, you can go to audibletrial.com slash ever forward. You get a free 30 day trial of Audible. It's my favorite audio book resources. And that's that. Thank you so much. Thank you. Oh man.