1KHO 794: Readers Stand Out | Jack Carr, Fourth Option

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When it comes to like Jack has another book, I'm like, of course, Jack has another book. This is a unique book, book 10. It is called the fourth option. You wrote it with MP Woodward and you talked about in this book, you know, in the prologue. And I think this is a really interesting thing about you, Jack. First of all, not that many people are readers. You've got a book club. You're like, you got to read, be a rebel, read books are the foundation upon which everything else is built. So already we've got kind of a culture that's not reading too much. But then additionally, I don't think that people pay too much attention to the authors. And since reading your books, I've read several of them. I've got right here, you know, I'm starting, I've got, I'm amassing my collection, but Oh, there's a couple missing there. I'm gonna have to take care of that. And I got a lot. We have all of them on audible. But the thing is, is that people don't tend to pay attention to the authors too much. You talk about a book they like, but you really pay attention to the authors, these people who have influenced you throughout the years. And you see that in all of your books, the authors, the authors. And so you talk about Tom Clancy. Not only are you like this person influenced me, but you know, his career trajectory. You're like, he wrote this many books, Tom Clancy, you know, and they're the this series. And then after book seven, he switched and he does, you know, nonfiction. And then after that, now he started to do co-writes. Was that always part of your story where you really paid attention to the authors? Or was that something that happened when you became an author? I always paid attention from the fan perspective. Because back in the 80s, even 90s, there wasn't that much you could dig up on authors. You had to find it in a article, let's say, in the Times or in the Wall Street Journal or in News Week or in Entertainment Weekly. If there was like a tiny little thing that it was a someone's book was being adapted and mentioned something about the author or whatever else, or you just paid attention by the books that were coming out, which is essentially how I did it. So from the fan perspective, I was aware of Tom Clancy's trajectory and Hunt for Red October and what a huge splash that made when it came out. Because that's about the same time I'm switching over from like the Farley Mow at young adult type reading into the same kind of books that my parents were reading. So right about fifth grade and then certainly by sixth grade. And so I'm very aware that he comes out of the gate with that. And then we get Red Storm Rising and then we get Patriot Games and then we get Cardinal the Kremlin. And then in the early 90s, he switches over and starts to do some other things. And of course, we have a movie by then. We have Hunt for Red October has come out and I don't think there I think there was a video game or like a one of those strategy type games. People probably don't even remember that it was like a like a strategy versions of like Axis and Allies or Dungeons and Dragons type thing. But it was a Tom Clancy type of a thing before the huge video games obviously took off later with the like the Splinter Cell and all the rest of it. But I was very aware that he diversified throughout his throughout his career, but just from the fan perspective, and that there was a nonfiction series that came out a guided tour series and then a study in command series. And then he branched off into some co-written thrillers with Ops Center. And I remember how they launched that with an NBC miniseries starring Harry Hamlin. I totally remember to this day how that all came out and how it launched together. So just from the fan perspective, I was aware of it. So for me, when I when I as I started down this path in publishing, that was something that I always wanted to do. My main goals were to become a number one New York Times bestseller from when I was a little kid and then get one of my books adapted. So when I achieved those, now it's all about improvement, like steady improvement. Every single book has to be better than the last. Every single TV show has to be better than the last. For me, it's all about providing value and improving. Even if it's just by a degree, that's my patch with my readers. My audience is that I'm not going to ever rest on my laurels and I'm going to improve because life's about improvement and learning from the failures of the past, just learning the lessons from the past and applying them to the current problem set as wisdom. But for me, it's about getting better. And so I wanted to also expand the readership because as you said, fewer people are reading and it just breaks my heart every single day that we've essentially pre programmed a younger generation, rewired their minds essentially through tick tock and all these other things that are their inputs that are coming into the devices in their in their pockets. And it just breaks my heart that they're not developing the essentially take it one step further. Not just that they're not reading, but they're not developing that compassion and empathy that comes from putting yourself in someone else's shoes that was so important to me. And evidence of that is just any discourse on X. Look at any comment section of any social media, essentially, and you'll see how that compassion and empathy is lacking. And in fact, the opposite traits are being encouraged through the algorithm to keep people glued to these bones. So so I saw what Tom Clancy did. And when I got to a certain stage, I thought, well, this is a good example for me to use when I pitched this to Simon and Schuster. And looking back, I probably didn't need to do go through all that work because I wrote up this like huge proposal. And like, I said, Tom Clancy did this here on this date. And this is and I went into the whole thing. And it's just, you know, just me researching using my memory. And and I had this whole proposal. And their answer was, Oh, yeah, it's a great idea. Let's do it. And I was like, I didn't need to put that much effort. I could have sent like an email instead of this whole like proposal that I put together. Because sometimes they say like, look, you got to stay in your lane, you know, you've got these really successful terminalist books, you know, we're just doing that. And so you're like, No, I wouldn't do something different. I'm coming up with a new this is a series, correct? Yes, this is gonna be a series. And yeah, I thought that too, because I heard that about either about other authors or from other authors interviews that their publishers wanted to keep them. Hey, you had a success with the character. We're not going to let you do anything else. And you know, who knows if that's just the author saying that who knows how hard they pushed me, there are all sorts of things that you don't get out of one. I mean, who knows background. But for me, it wasn't even they didn't even hesitate for they didn't hesitate on the nonfiction side for targeted Beirut. And then they didn't hesitate at all on this either. And I have all sorts of other plans to by the way, keep expanding. But but yeah, I dove into this and this is Chris Walker and background on this is I had these, let's say six, seven, eight, nine, 10, I'll have to go back and count at some point. But it's in a it's in an old computer that I kept I keep all my computers by the way, they just kind of stack up. But I wrote down all these different ideas when it came time for me to leave the military or I was getting closer to leaving the military. And I had to decide on which hey, what what of all these ideas that I have here? What's the one I need to come out of the gate with was my first book. And it was very clear that that was going to be the terminal list. I wanted it to be Savage Sun, my third book, but the characters weren't yet developed to a place where I could explore those themes of Hunter and Hunter and the dark side of man. And so I thought, okay, terminal list is the one to come out of the gate with. But I had this other idea. I had this fourth option idea. And that came from really watching Westerns with my dad as a kid in this old Western called have gone will travel 50s came out 50s and 60s. That was actually a radio show. I'm before before it was a TV show. And and so I was watching those with my dad and then of course, Shane and Magnificent seven and pale rider and High Plains Drifter and all these stranger comes to town narratives that are part of our Western mythology. And so I had this idea back then that was December of 2014 or if let's say fall of 2013, I started writing in December of 2014. But I had all these ideas and then dove into the terminal list. And then of course, comes Tripoliver and Savage Sun and the devil's hand. And I just I'm all in on the terminal list. And I'm I think I'm getting better at my craft. I think every book's gotten better. It's always my goal, like I said. But then in the summer of 2021, we're filming the terminal list in LA. And we have a day off and I'm start thinking about some things that I can do outside the terminal list universe. So I revisit the fourth option idea. And I write it up a little more because I have a full day to myself. And I started just building that out. And then I got back and I turned that into a 40 page PowerPoint presentation where I attached actors and like the mood and pictures of New Orleans and the dog and this whole this whole thing. And so I got that that together thinking that hey, I'm gonna pitch it to Hollywood because I don't have time to write another book right now I have to focus on the next James Reese. So I'm gonna pitch this to Hollywood. So that's what I did. I had another I had another idea to same same story behind that idea. But I pitched them both to Hollywood, they both got picked up by production company, I'll say. And and then I saw it from start to morph. And it was the other one. We started we decided to do the other idea first. So I had that same thing that huge outline that huge treatment for this other idea. And then I saw the show runner come in and all these executives come in and the creative team come in. And I saw that original treatment of mine morph in a different direction. And you know, there might have been a better direction who knows. But there would never be I realized anything that someone could go back to that was purely the best that I could do at that time. The other books, I don't mind how they how they evolve to the screen because I know that's a different medium. And I'm a student, I'm always approached everything as a student. But it doesn't bother me that the terminalist isn't exactly the same as the book on the screen or that true believer that's coming out in the fall isn't exactly the same. That doesn't bother me because people can always go back to that book. And that's the best I could do at the time. And I realized that was never going to happen with these treatments. And so when I had the opportunity, I clawed these things back from Hollywood, and then decided to turn the fourth option into my first book outside the James Reeves terminalist universe. But I also realized I need to co author for this because I need to focus on the James Reeves terminalist universe and maybe one day I'll be able to write two books in one year. If I think like Gretchen can do it, Michael Connolly can do it. But I think their children are older and out of the house, I think. So I think that may open up a little time for them. But at this stage, I realized I needed to co author. So I searched for a long time to find a co author and found MP Woodward, who was a former, yeah, the handler. So I read the handler, loved the handler. And I said, Oh, I wonder if MP Woodward would like to like to collaborate on a book. And so reached out to him and and he was all for it. So then we went, we went back and I sent him that 40 page PowerPoint presentation. And he read that. And then we started going back and forth on an outline for a few months and text and email and zoom. And we got that to a place where, okay, beginning middle end, we're all it's all all together here, characters. And then he went off and wrote for like two months and then sent it to me in August. And then I got it then and worked on it until just about a month ago. So it's, it's, there's a lot of my DNA in there. So it's not something I just threw my in many, many reads. It'll realize that it's not just something I threw my, my name on. And it was posted by my, my sorry, I'm talking so much here. I get so excited about books. And my idea was this was supposed to come out in January, February. And then James Reese eight was supposed to come out in May, June, according to my original plan. But try Havoc as we talk about took so much longer to write because it was doing research, essentially historical fiction 1968, not doing contemporary research took a lot longer than I anticipated. So that book took so long to write that it really put me behind by a good solid year, maybe a year and a half, two years. So, so anyway, so this is the book for this year, but it was not supposed to be, it was supposed to come out a few months ago. And then James Reese eight was supposed to come out in this May, June, but that's just how that's just how life goes. Well, I knew it said, I remember when we talked about Cry Havoc and you were like, you're like, I'm fine. You're like, I know so many things about Vietnam. And then you were like, no, I had to research so much more than I ever could have imagined. Your books have really expanded me this whole different genre that I wouldn't have read. And I've learned so much through all of them. I've loved them. Is it quite different to do a nonfiction, co-write versus a fiction, co-write? Yes, yes, because in the nonfiction side of the house, James Scott on the targeted series, I mean, he's a story and he's a Pulitzer Prize finalist. He knows what he's doing when it comes to nonfiction. And I would have had, I mean, I just didn't say no idea, but I would not have certainly not been able to do what he did. And I learned so much from him. He's such a great guy. But there's ways to legally annotate your notes when you're doing primary sources. And I didn't want targeted that series to be a like pop, cult pop history, meaning I didn't want to just read a bunch of books on the Middle East or reread a bunch of things and then kind of put my take on it and then just push it out there. I wanted this to be people could go to for years and years and would really be the book that when someone said, Hey, what should I read on Be root in 1983, the Marine barracks bombing or that part of the world during that time? Then people could say, Oh, I'll point to this book right here. And all the photos are correct, legally annotated, all the notes in the back are done the right way, annotated correctly, all of that. So it is a actual work of fiction. It is not pop history. Nothing wrong with pop history. Great. But it's not like the gateway drug, maybe to something that's more serious and correctly annotated that you can count on, like all the things in there are right. And so very different than doing something that you just make up. So when you're, you know, I don't have to rely. Like I rely on James Scott. He is amazing and he's working hard right now on targeted our next targeted, which I haven't announced yet the the topic, but if people go back in my Instagram, if they scroll back a few months, they can probably see some place that was in piece together, what it's going to be about. But that'll come out, I think in the first quarter of 2027. So of course it will. Of course it will. I actually think the timing is great. This is coming out right before Father's Day. This is your gift, isn't it? You can go to your website. You can buy like the hat. I've got all the things. We've got the hat and the mugs and you get this one, the fourth option, because it's a brand new series. So you start in, you know, at the very beginning with Chris Walker. So the title is called the fourth option, which comes up twice actually in the book and kind of sets the premise for the whole book, which is a really hard, I think heartbreaking topic that, okay, so you talk about with the fourth option, you're like, okay, you know, the police aren't doing what they're supposed to do, the law enforcement, the courts aren't doing what they're supposed to do. The prison system is failing. You know, Chris Walker, it's the only option basically. And like he's got the small team of people that you would not expect. It includes a grandma, you know, so you've got that part. But then you also have this sort of set up situation where Chris Walker is in Afghanistan, he's stationed there, and there are these informants. I watched a movie. We don't watch it many movies, but this one really stuck with me. It was called, oh, I wrote it down because I was like, I'm going to forget the name. Jake Gyllenhaal was in it and it was it came out in 2023. The covenant. Dr. Who's also in Dark Wolf and True Believer. So there we go. The covenant, that is a similar sort of story. I mean, I didn't realize that this is happening where you've got local people that are helping in exchange for protection or they want to come to the United States or, you know, they want to get out of this war torn country. And so they put their lives at risk. They put their family's lives at risk in order to exchange it in the covenant. I mean, they're the in the he's like a translator. He's dragging the soldier like in a wheelbarrow up these hills. You're like, wow, wow, the depth of relationship there. And so in this one, there is this man named Najee. I might listen to Ray Porter. He'll tell you if I said that right. Me too. Let me know. And he is an asset. They call him Mongoose and he's a rug shop owner. And so, you know, he's got some access into different people's homes and he's this asset. And you talk about, and we've talked about this before when they pulled everyone out of Afghanistan and then they left all the military stuff and people just got left behind people that were promised things. And so that concept of the fourth option comes up there as well, which is the first option is diplomacy. The second option is war. The third. And then he's like, I think your math is off. The system has failed. We are on our own, which makes you and me the fourth option trying to save this man and his family for people who maybe haven't watched the Covenant and who are not maybe exposed to this world as much. Can you talk about just that, that that happens? Yeah. And so the third option is the motto of the CIA's paramilitary division. And so that's like I said, so it's war, diplomacy, war. And then there's the third option and that's the RCA guys, which are the paramilitary side. It's not the case officers, but the guys who were out there on the ground doing the tactical level, kicking in the doors and doing the covert type action missions. So there's a third option. So I had to. So I said, OK, well, this is these guys now are beyond that. So they're now fourth option in this case, when they're having that conversation before they try to get their asset out of Afghanistan, knowing that the CIA wants to keep this guy in place to keep feeding them information, but that's going to keep put him and his family at risk. And he's probably going to die. So Chris Walker feels responsible for this. Gets his friend John Stobb to accompany him and try to get get their asset and his family across the border to Pakistan and to Islamabad to say to claim asylum at the American Embassy there. So they're trying to work their way around with the CIA leadership once, which is to leave some people behind so they can know what's going on in Afghanistan after we. So, yeah, so the fourth option comes really from the third option motto of the CIA paramilitary division and the special activity center is what it's called now. And these guys are another fourth option. And then, of course, that's the rest of the book, too, is now Chris Walker is that fourth option throughout the rest of the book and going forward. And there's so much humanity there. They're like, this guy's got little kids. You know, he did his part. He did his year, you know, in the Arab, dragging it out because they want to still use this guy. And so it's really interesting. The whole thing is about justice. And, you know, do you do the right thing? What is the right thing to do? As we move towards summer, everything starts to look a little different. The schedule loosens up. 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And when thousand hours outside, listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership. We may sign up today at IXL.com slash 1000 hours. Visit IXL.com slash 1000 hours to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Chris Walker is a philosopher too. And so you're learning a lot about the different philosophers along the way. And, you know, you're, you're talking about different really deep concepts like suicide and, you know, you brought up earlier, like, you know, what is social media doing to us and like the deterioration of civil discourse and all of these things that have really changed possibly the way our government works. So it's fantastic. And I love that that fourth option, it comes out more than once, right? It's like it's framed in a couple of different ways in the story. Let's talk about Chris Walker. He's an analog guy. Yes. Yes. He's an analog guy. Get that from his, from his mom, his upbringing. He was an orphan adopted. And I really wanted this, this stranger comes to town narrative and really my modern interpretation of that half gun will travel and, and that, and that narrative that seems to resonate with so, so many of us. That stranger comes to town bringing justice. And it's a question of what does justice mean? What does justice mean today? And I wanted to start him in one place in the country and have him have to travel to get to that city. In this case, it's New Orleans. I always wanted to set a novel in New Orleans. I went there twice in the SEAL teams. It's just, it's a vibrant and there's just a great background for a thriller like this. So he, instead of getting on his horse and riding into town, like in the, the westerns that we watch growing up, instead, he packs up his Volkswagen bus, pop-top camper from the 80s and his dog, Belgian Malinois, his working dog and Paladin and jumps in their van and off they go across the country. So the reader gets to know a little bit more about him as he drives, as he's thinking, as he's having this battle essentially in his mind between these conflicting philosophers. And I really wanted to differentiate him from James Reese as well in the other, my other series. And James Reese, family man, of course, and Chris Walker, no family at all. Have that philosophy part, you would have that battle going on in the head. I have the suicide part in there as well. And then he's thinking about taking his life when he gets that call that saves it. And that was really something that intrigued me when I first thought about bringing this character to life back in 2014 was that call that pulls somebody out of those depths and, and gives them a new mission in life, gives them a purpose. And then throughout that one mission, they learn to live again, going forward from there. So so you get to know him as he drives across the country and then he arrives in New Orleans and then things really kick off. But but I have that, like, like you said, what's going on in Afghanistan, those flashbacks to Afghanistan, they kind of explain that relationship with John Stobb and how he how he has a relationship with the family and then the son who's killed in this opioid crisis. And it's there's they under suspicious circumstances. I'll say, and then he meets his team. Meets very unorthodox team. And I love the grandmother character. She was fantastic. And then Bell is who who helps him out as well, because I knew I couldn't use it another journalist like that's like that. I love journalists, but I've done that before. So I thought, well, I can't do that. Who should it be? Should it be like a nurse? And then I'm like, well, the mom's kind of the nurse already. Who can I have that's helping him? I mean, do somebody a little different here? Somebody who's who's younger, who's a little bit like a little awkward, who's a different generation, who has a different skill set, who looks different, like all of these all of these things. So she she's a great character in from the reviews and from the interviews that I've done thus far. People really, really like Bell, that character, which is which is cool. I love the team. I love the team and I love the philosophical underpinnings. Like, am I supposed to be judge, jury and executioner? I mean, it makes you think, you know, like, and I love when you talk about, you know, with the Westerns and people would come in. I didn't grow up watching any Westerns at all. But my father-in-law, Mark, he loves them, you know, and he he's got, like he used to like be a children's pastor and they called him Marshall Mark and he had this whole get up and everybody loved it. So and he's still got a bunch of stuff. He's got these hats. He's a cool guy. Well, he might like it. He might like this one. He would. My kids say he has aura. That's what they say. He's like this grandpa, but he's just a cool guy. So I didn't grow up watching them, but I loved this concept of people are like, who is this guy? You know, this Chris Walker comes in and there's these parts where like he takes out this whole team of people. And it's like the team from the drug lord. So, you know, like that team is like a beefy team. You know, that's a violent team that the drug lord sends, you know, and they're like, are you sure it was one guy? You know, that comes up again and again. So I just, and they're like, who is it? Like nobody can figure out who it is. It's a fantastic part of the book. There's just, I mean, so, so many elements here in the part that when I say, like he's an analog guy, this is a current, this is modern day, right? You're like, I want to take this Western theme into modern day. And Chris Walker, it doesn't have a cell phone. Like he has a cell phone, but not a smartphone. He's a flip phone guy. He doesn't have a computer. You know, he plays the guitar. He fixes things and, uh, you know, he takes things apart, puts them together. And he's got a typewriter, you know, he's got the Martin six string. And it was interesting because the, you know, one of the characters that he's seeking justice for was similar, you know, also Connor. So Connor's a young guy, but also like a hands-on guy fixing things. And you could tell, and I don't know if this was on purpose, but like there was a bit of connection there. It was intentional. Yes. Definitely intentional to have them have similar characters because they didn't know each other really, you know, they, they mad, whatever, but not, they weren't close. It wasn't like an uncle or a father figure or anything like that. You know, after the father died, you know, he has this guilt about really not taking care of the wife and son after that. And, and, uh, but I wanted him to share something in common. So that became the, uh, that, that analog and the kid was kind of a kid born at a time, essentially is what I wanted. I wanted both of these guys to be born out of time, then one of them to be snatched away. And, uh, and so that, that was that, that was their, their connection. And then the, uh, the Jared Stan characters, the FBI character, I wanted to have somebody who's hunting him and we read her doesn't actually say too much. I don't want to say too much about that. But I wanted, uh, I wanted there to be some questions around that character, but then I wanted him to be the exact opposite, essentially Chris Walker. So someone who's college educated, who's a law school guy who is, uh, goes into the FBI and has never pulled his weapon or never, never fired his weapon in the line of duty, never killed anybody, uh, data driven, uh, where's his Apple watch and counts his steps and all of those things and working his way up the chain type of a thing through this career knows what he has to do to make that next, uh, next assignment or that next level in the FBI. And so he's doing all those right things. Um, and then I wanted him, I mean, if a family man and, and, uh, uh, I wanted him to get closer to Chris Walker as this hunting him, essentially, but also start questioning some of those themes of justice. And really that's, uh, some of this is about a time when the only way to uphold justice is by breaking the law. And so that's what, uh, that's what they're, they're, they're kind of one out of the shins. I don't know if I'd say too much. I know it's, uh, isn't it? It's, sometimes it's really hard to talk about a fiction book because you're like, you don't want to give anything away, but I loved with Jared. You know, he, he's wrestling. And like you said, he's wrestling with his own questions. And one of the things I think he's wrestling with is his wife who's like, you got to play the game. Yeah. You got to play the game. And it comes up kind of a lot. Cause it's like, well, they've got these three daughters and she like wants him to move up in his career. And this is corrupt. It's a corrupt system. So, you know, I think he's struggling back and forth with what is my place here. And so I loved that. I love those, the juxtaposition of those two characters, Jared and Chris. And I mean, there's so many twists at the end with all the headlights and you're like, who's it going to be? You know, it's a fantastic book. Uh, I, I mean, there's a complete page turner. It's called the fourth option. I thought it was interesting. Our family watched a documentary this past year about Katrina. And it was pretty sobering and a lot of it was about mishandling. And this book, you know, it's this New Orleans area, but a lot of it is taking place in the ninth ward where a lot of this sort of corruption with the police and things is happening. And in some ways, some people would say is sort of downstream from poor management to begin with. When you chose New Orleans and you, you know, you talked about, you'd been there, you know, and, and actually a teeny little bit of your story is in Chris's story, you know, like with his training and he got to visit. But did you already know that you were going to include a lot of the ninth ward stuff? Yes, because of the, uh, the way that drugs were, the way that I think probably first I just assumed the way that drugs were flowing into the country and how they're being dispersed. And probably some of that comes from, uh, from popular culture from other, uh, from movies I've seen in television shows, that, that sort of a thing. But then in diving into it to find out, oh, yes, there's, there's a lot of truth to that. So, um, and how a lot of these houses are used as these trap houses and drug houses, uh, type of a thing where people do come in and that's where they pick up their, pick up their drugs and then get out of town, uh, or moved to other parts of, of town. So, um, I found out that a lot of my assumptions were, okay, that was true. And, uh, and also I wanted to juxtapose the different districts, the garden district, uh, uh, the Bourbon Street and the tourists and, and everything else, the ninth ward, um, some of the boat traffic moving, moving up and down the, the Mississippi. Um, like all those different kind of parts of it that are so different, but yet still so vibrant. Um, but that I'll tell a different story about the area. So, um, that was, that was, it gave me a lot to work with, I guess is the best way to put it. Sure. You know, and then you had, you know, talking about location, you know, this is the sort of main setting of the book. You're going back, you know, New Orleans, Afghanistan, Iran. And then also though, you, you do, um, like walk Chris, you know, you're, you're, you show Chris Walker's journey, uh, from the Pacific Northwest. He likes the Pacific Northwest. So, you know, heading to Louisiana and he goes to Texas. And so there's a lot in here about nature, you know, all these places he stayed in, he sleeps outside and he's under the stars and he's got the fire going. And he went from place to place. And I would imagine for people that live in these places, it has to be so cool for them to be like, Oh yeah. Like I know about the garden district or I took too many notes. I took too many notes. Or I know about, um, I'm trying to find the part where I read about nature. Like he's at this, you know, it's like this national park. He's in you like go through the map. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to take that journey because he goes on a journey with his mom, who he doesn't know has cancer as it is. The mom who adopts him, uh, he doesn't know that she has cancer and, and, uh, and so she wants this last like year with him or however long she has left, uh, to be memorable until they go on this road trip. And that's going to play into future novels as well. And so he has this memory of, of spending time with her when he didn't know that she was dying essentially. And that comes from an actually a friend of mine, who's, uh, whose father did that, um, with him and his, his family. So they get more emotional just thinking about it. Um, so I got that from, from them. And, uh, uh, yeah, just so, so heartbreaking, but, um, and he's such a, such a great, such a great guy and such a great dad to his kids. And I, anyway, the whole, anyway, it was really per, that part was really personal. So I wanted to have, have, uh, I just kind of plotted it out. And the same way I did when I was a kid thinking about, oh, I want to visit these national parks and I'm seeing, you know, an outside magazine or backpacker magazine or whatever it is. I'm, I'm looking at these different places and like dreaming of a time when I can get my light driver's license and you know, pack up whatever car I get and drive off to these different places. And I, I had this, uh, this map, I think came from National Geographic. It was a map of every state. I still have it downstairs. It's like this yellow base and has every single map of the states and then has one of the entire country down there and it's from, from the 80s. And I remember ordering it and, you know, thinking like it was probably like $20 and thinking how much that was back then. And asking my parents as a little kid, like in sixth grade, if I could get this thing and, and, uh, so yeah, it's like I said, I still have it, but, uh, but I remember mapping out these different routes. And so, uh, I wanted Chris Walker to kind of take something similar and, and, uh, you know, I mentioned a store where you can get, uh, you can buy a wild game and then you can go to this, this other place that, uh, where he's under the stars and then he's, he's training with Paladin and kind of trying to setting up like what the dog can do and keeping that training going, which people have Bella built Jamel and while working dogs know you have to work them. You have to keep, keep with some others. Like it's something that's perishable. So you have to keep working them. Uh, and then he gets, and he has thinking at the same time. It allows him time to think and reflect. He's a very reflective person, obviously, but there's still a battle going on in his, uh, in his heart and soul. Um, and he has the, the education, uh, with these philosophers to, uh, uh, to have that battle essentially been feeding that battle by studying all these different philosophers and going to NYU and studying philosophy there. Um, and those are in a constant battle as he's going through these serene places and looking up at the stars or going for a morning run with a dog and all of the sorts of things. So, um, but you get to know him by, by that journey. And then, uh, by the time he gets to New Orleans, he's ready to rock, but I had these, these three in that van. I don't know if you noticed that you, I'm sure you did that, that these three different layers to his like, um, uh, like for people that know how to truck vault is type of a thing, but he has this one that he's built into his Volkswagen bus camper and, uh, he has his essentially weapons of war on the bottom rung of this thing is bottom part of this drawer, the bottom section and, uh, the top section has the traditional bow and things like that. And then the next section down is, is like a lever action, 30, 30. And, and that's sort of a thing. And then you get to the bottom one that he hasn't touched, um, since he got back from Afghanistan and then those are the tools of his former trade. And then he switches them. He puts those as he starts on his journey. Uh, he puts that back at the top. And so it's just kind of a flip of the switch. And now he's back in operator mode and, uh, goes into to dispense some justice. He sure does. He sure does. So you're talking about, I found it in my notes, you know, the Morley Nelson Snake River, birds of prey, national conservation area. And they're like, I want to go there. You know, the craters of the moon national monument. And he's just out. Well, he Walker stared into the flames as man had done from time immemorial. So in, is that how you say the word? I don't know. I think it's immemorial, but, um, that makes sense. Cause there are two M's in there. Immemorial. So it's just, you know, he's this nature guys, you've got all that woven in. So that was really cool to see. It's just very hands on. It just reminds you like there's really good things out there. There's really good books to read. I was wondering, because I know for your books, you've done so much research. There was a couple over arching topics in here that I wondered if you had to research much or if you kind of already knew a lot about them. So the first one is the drugs. Yeah. That makes me sound like an old mom. I am an old mom though. So that's fine. I'm the same. You know, uh, What about the drugs, Jack? Yeah. This is your brain. This is your brain. I know I kind of felt that way actually as I was doing some of this, but yeah, I know how to do a lot of research into that and then had to make up my own drug essentially. And there are these synthetics out there that do pop up. So there's a baseline for this drug called snowball. I didn't want it to just be, you know, an opioid fentanyl. I wanted it to be something like, Hey, there's something new about this. And then as I started doing that, that research, I found out, yeah, there are these synthetics out there. And so the snowball drug is something that is very, very possible, probable, maybe not in the exact way that I write it in the book, but it's, there are definitely touch points to, to reality and to these synthetic drugs that are out there. So yeah, did a lot of research on, on that and how they're getting in and how, and I wanted to have there some confusion about how this gets in, like, where is the source of this new drug and have the FBI not really know because a lot of times you can't tell exactly what kills somebody because there's so many different drugs in their, in their system. So, so I wanted to have all those things come into play. And I think I got it right because I sent the book off to people that know what they're, what they're doing to do, to look at it like my AOD buddy, he gets to, he gets a read FBI buddy gets a read. So people in the medical industry, I guess, get, get a read. And I just want to make sure that, that it sounds right. Like if somebody in your industry is to read this, would this, would this make sense? And I do that to all, with all the books, but this one in particular, because I really didn't know much other than, you know, what I hear on the, on the news in a two and a half minute segment or something like that. When it comes to Fennel, but I mean, my gosh, it is just, it is touched so many families across the country. And then you'll be in crisis and what happened with the Sackler family, with Purdue Pharma and all the lobbyists and all the executives and everything that happened with that. I have a podcast actually that's going to drop around the fourth option. So I'm doing a different way of podcast this year up for the last few years. It's just been like a normal podcast, like just guest, talk to them, read their book type of a thing. And that takes so long, as you know, and I need to write books. So I'm like, wow, how can I keep the podcast going? But, but not have it take so much time. And, and I thought, okay, why don't I do blocks of a podcast around certain projects? So right now the Dark Wolf podcast is out there about the television show where I sit down with each and every actor, and then there'll be one for the fourth option where I sit down with people who have touch points with the book. And that includes Gerald Posner who wrote a book called Pharma. And I sit down with him and talk all this through with him. And about that, the opioid crisis, its origins, the history, where it is now, what happened to that family that benefited so much from so many people's pain. And so that's all woven into that podcast for a little more background. But this book is fiction. So to conclude all of that, you know, obviously it wouldn't make sense, but I wanted to have it all with like as with all my books, I went there to be an underlying foundation, reality and authenticity. Yeah, of accuracy. You know, the the mom is a nurse. And so she said, I've seen so many kids rest into the ER. Maybe this is a new synthetic, you know, just seeing the with the snowball effect. That's stupid because that's what it's called. I mean, it's awful. They're like, this is so sad. It's affecting so many people and it's so much money because it's just like funding these people who are so wealthy. So like you said, you interviewed the guy who wrote the book, Farma. I didn't even know there was a book called Farma. That's interesting, but this definitely plays in big farmers a part of this book, you know, right over there in the book shelf, bottom shelf down there. I can't see. Charisma way. But anyway, right down there. Farma, yeah, who profits, who benefits. There's corruption at all these levels all the way from the street, you know, the street sellers to to big business to Farma to the government. So this is this is quite the quest. So you did some research on the drugs. I assume that you would have had to do that. What about the dog training? I know you've talked about the Rescue 22 Foundation. I mean, I read about that way at the beginning when we first started talking. So that these service dogs, I mean, the friendship there with Palladium and also like the, you know, the fact that I liked it. I love that there was these different commands because he had been trained in a different language, but then also the whistling when there was silent whistle commands. Was that something that you already knew about or had to research? I had to research because I wasn't a dog handler. And so I went to my buddy, John Devine, amazing guy. He trained our dog Scout, actually, who's downstairs right now. And he was a seal dog handler and has a company called Divine Canine's and Rescue 22 Foundation, which helps provide service and support dogs for veterans dealing with the physical and emotional trauma of the battlefield. Just a great guy. So he was my resource for it. But once again, any mistakes, mine and mine alone, as I say, in the in the acknowledgments to this to this book. And it was interesting because I always just thought that the commands that I was hearing were in Dutch and in doing this research, I found out, oh, it's it's really a morph of Dutch German. And I think I put it in the book. It's like, you know, you have the you have the the galley copy. Oh, because the the I don't like the galley copy because it's still a rough draft. So there. So I don't know if this is this line. Because when you said that it to mix, I was like, I don't think that's in the galley copy because I don't have that in my notes. Yes, because it's still a rough draft. So I don't like the galley copies getting out there. But it's a it's a mix and they call it what is I'm going to mess it up right now. But it's in the it's in the final draft. But it's like, they just got to get like the German or something, Kentucky Dutch or something like that. And that's what the dog handlers in German or the Netherlands would say about the commands that our seals were using, because it was like they kind of morphed them. So they weren't exactly what the Dutch, they weren't exactly the German. They were this Americanized kind of slang, essentially. And then each dog handler I found out has, you know, every dog is different. Every person is different. So it wasn't standardized. Like it wasn't every single dog had the exact same commands for their. I mean, there was some standardization, but I found out that that relationship with the dog, it kind of like like morphed. And just like with anybody who has a dog, you know, you maybe have a nickname for it. Or all of a sudden, you know, they they they respond to to something, you know, that maybe another dog doesn't. And so it's this it's very personal connection. So so he's like, so you have some leeway with this, with this relationship with the dog, because every dog and handler have a slightly different relationship. And so I thought, OK, it does give me some freedom, but I still wanted him to check it and say, OK, if a dog handler is to read this, does this make sense? And part of it, I put in there and I'm not sure if it's in this the Cali copy or not. But the whistle drills weren't something that were taught in the SEAL team. So I have the dog going after like a retires and it goes to a place in Southern California where it gets retrained for Hollywood. And so there's hand signals, there's hand commander. There are some hand signals, I think, and for the dog handlers and the SEAL teams. But the whistle drills were something that I added that aren't aren't typical for a SEAL working dog. But I have that explained in the book. And so why Paladin is essentially the and how he put it, how John Devine put it, he's like, as I was reading this, I kept thinking that Paladin is the the James Reese of Belgian Malinois. And I'm like, OK, think of it that way. And so anyway, there's the there's some things in there that a typical working dog wouldn't do. But I gave those those powers to Paladin because he's such a great, great dog and character. And people seem to really, really connect with the dog in this book. Yeah, he's a great character. He's one of the main characters. So then I did. And I you know, it's interesting you write up earlier about the it's woven and just here and there, you know, he wakes up, Chris Walker wakes up, you know, he does some whistle drills or, you know, he does these things with the dog and you don't have to explicitly say that they have to keep working on it. But you you get that, you know, just from the context. Isn't that great? You know, you learn these things. And I was wondering about that. I was like, oh, that's interesting. Like you would think the dog would know it forever. But, you know, he's he's working with the dog on a regular basis. It's part of his routine. Tell people about the Rescue 22 Foundation. Yep. So they've they've been around for a few years now. And I've been working with them ever since I started publishing. And they've done so much great work with veterans providing these dogs, not just the veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, but veterans of Vietnam and providing these dogs that are specifically trained for that individual. So depending on what their what their condition is, whether they they're in a wheelchair or they they're they're missing arms, legs, whatever it might be, or assist that emotional trauma, the battlefield. And that's a it's a support dog for them. So they're all trained up completely free of cost to that that veteran. And it takes it takes a long time to train train these dogs to pick these dogs to train these dogs out specific to that individuals needs and then provide them to these to these veterans. So it's just such a great organization. And it's like we're so grassroots also. It's like not huge, which is what I really love about it, is that there's just a couple of people in it. So there's no one's no one's getting like crazy salaries like you hear about sometimes when things get too big and they might still be doing great work. But it's hard to to to think about all the salaries that go into the CEOs and all that stuff. This is small. And, you know, they just they just work with with what they have. And so Rescue 22 Foundation, a great group of people doing wonderful work. And it ties with the theme of the book, which is that Chris is trying to figure out what's the point of his life. And he's, you know, it's framed at the beginning that he's going to take his life. And so there's 20 number 22. Yeah, that's kind of what it comes from, right? People say that it's the you know, it's hard to get exact numbers. There's fluctuations and, you know, there's stats and all the rest of it. But about about 22 veterans take their lives every single day. That's where it came from. But that fluctuates, I think. So it's like somewhere between twenty seventeen and like twenty five. So it's in there in that two minute. And and so that's where the name came from. Yeah. OK. So then that's the the part about, you know, taking your life and what am I here for? And there was a there was a quote. And then they were like, I think this is from Voltaire. If you want to avoid suicide, find something to do. This was a third part where, you know, I was like, OK, I would imagine he had to research the drug part. I would imagine I didn't know about the dog training, like if you had had a lot of experience with that or not. But then the philosophers, that's a whole other part, too. Now, if people were to look at your bookshelf versus my bookshelf and I do have books other places, but but were you already reading these philosophy books or was this something that you added to the mix for the fourth option? I've been reading since high school, but from junior high. And I just looked at my shelf. I was going to pull some out. But there's there with my team because they had to photograph them for the book trailer video. So they're in Chris Walker's van in the book trailer video. And so they're off my shelf and they're your books. Yeah, really cool, Jack. They're like your actual books. Yeah, they're my books. And they're just like the books in the terminal list and that opening sequence to the terminal list in James Reese's library. Those are all my books, too. It's not to to LA to put them in the garage and then to film that opening sequence. So those are all my and not all of them made it in. I sent a huge box out there and I took took photos because I'm like, well, some of these I've been collecting. You know, some of these are 20, 30 years old. And I'm like, oh, man, if I this box gets lost, I'm going to be heartbroken. So anyway, those the books in the in the TV show are mine as well. So you already had been reading them since junior high high school. Did you have to brush up on anything or did you feel like, OK? Oh, yeah. And I wanted them to be conflava, have philosophers that had conflicting viewpoints. And I wanted to just weave those in at the appropriate times and really have it be that that battle of the philosophers. And that would kind and have it kind of come down to the what is truth? And a lot of the little philosophy comes down to that. So I wanted that to be kind of an underlying foundational element, but also all the arguments around that to just be talking in his head as he's as he's working through these problem sets. So so that was that was really interesting to do. And yeah, I certainly had to brush up on on all that. Yeah, I love that part of the book. And I would imagine, you know, if you're in these situations, like it was interesting to have read this one after reading a lot of the other ones, where there is a lot of disillusionment. And it was interesting. This book wrapped up with the disillusionment of two different people who were both let down by our government, but in very different situations. And that was a really interesting twist in the dialogue there. But like in Targeted, May Roo, you know, you talk about the country doesn't know what these are what different people have said. The country doesn't know what to do without wars. You know, you know, a soldier young young says they sent us to Beirut to be targets who could not shoot. Friends will die in an early grave. Was there any reason for what they gave? You know, there was a line in there that, you know, if we are there to fight, we are far too few. If we are there to die, we are far too many. And then in Cryhavoc, you know, you're similar. It's like, you know, what are the underpinnings here? You talk about how, you know, this in 1960, every MacVisog operator was wounded. Many of them more than once close to 50% were killed. There's still over 1500 Americans listed as missing in action from the Vietnam War. Do you find that? Or here's my question. Would it be common for someone then who has experienced these incredibly horrific circumstances, you know, that people can't even relate to, they would have no idea. Like I remember when I first watched like the first of the terminalists, like the show, I was like, what the heck? Like Chris Pat's like running through some sewer and like, and I was like, people live like this, you know? And so do you find that obviously like the you talk about the dogs, it's like, there's these emotion and come back with these emotional just you would kind of be wrecked. Do people turn to philosophy? And also, like, is it more common that you would turn to philosophy if you've been in the battlefield versus if you've been in the air conditioned office in Washington, DC? That is a great question. And going back a little bit, I mean, those quotes that you read from Target at Beirut, I mean, I almost got I was getting emotional and hearing you read those. So researching that book was like, was so emotional. And this next one that comes out in early 2027, that one's even more so. And you'll know why when you when you get it, when you hear what the topic is. But turning to philosophy, I don't know, because I've always been interested in philosophy since I was a little kid. I don't really haven't really talked to anybody who gets drawn to philosophy. I think it's maybe drawn more towards religion, like there's no atheist in a foxhole type of a thing. So I think it's probably more that if I was to guess. My experience is with people turning that direction. But but I wanted this to be a little, little bit different. I wanted him to like I wanted to differentiate him from my other characters and the other novels. And then also from anybody else that I've read about throughout my life, I can't really remember a philosopher, except for, except for Dalton in the 1980s version of Roadhouse. So he had that. So that made me where it came from. But it didn't expect a Roadhouse reference in this talk probably this morning. But but yes, I want to make a little difference. So I'm sure there are people both in air conditioned offices who who feel some guilt maybe perhaps or feel that they wish they could have done more or they should have said something or all those emotions that I that I assume can be attached to someone who's in a supporting effort. And then I'm sure there are people. Oh, here's the best example. And why I just James Stockdale. So James Stockdale was a was shot down in Vietnam and actually at the Sears School, the survival of Asian resistance, the Scape, the Scape School in Coronado, California, that the Navy pilots go through and we went through as seals. Now we have our own after I went through it, we had our own Sears school. But so that's named after him. And he has a he went to Stanford, I believe, and has a whole book on philosophy and his experience in as a prisoner of war in Vietnam. So he's metal of honor, reciprocal organizations as a prisoner of war. And so yes, there. So yes, I'm rewinding. And this is why these kind of conversations are so much better than that one and a half minute soundbite segments that sometimes I have to do on news channels. It's driving me crazy because you can't go back, you know, so I couldn't pick something on in the second that they asked me and then went to the next guest or moved on to the next topic. But yes, certainly there are people and probably James Stockdale is probably the most public example of that. I love that premise. And then the book is split up into three parts and each part is separated by a quote from a different philosopher. So you're going to learn a lot. You like every time I read your book, I'm like, oh, a book of yours. I'm like, oh, there's more things in the world that I should probably learn more about, you know, and it has they have expanded me every single one, even just a fiction book, you know, I'm like, oh, I learned more. In fact, I've got to interview a couple other authors in similar genres. And I don't know if I would have had the confidence to even do it. I got to interview Jim Schaake. He wrote Call Me Hunter. And then I recently interviewed Brad Thor and Lord Warson. Lord Warson. Lord. No, Ward. Sorry, Ward. I said Lord Warson. Ward. Larsen, they wrote a book together called Cold Zero. You know, it is interesting because you had written in, in this book, the fourth option about Connor. So he's the one, you know, we're trying to get justice for this Connor kid. And it was, it was a line about him living by the pen and not by the sword. And I thought, OK, the line was he's Connor is a journalist. He's smart enough to make a living with a pen, not the sword, which was really an interesting line because it turns out to be a violent book for him anyway. You know, that in a lot of ways, if you are a writer, you are exposing, you know, in your books, you always got a little bit of an undercurrent. Like, you know, what are we thinking about? Hey, what AI? What are we thinking about? Tic-tac? What are we thinking about sugar? I mean, that was part, that was part of the book. We're like, yeah, I have that line in there. That's right. Yeah. Like our culture is, you know, obsessed with sugar. So there's always little things in there. But it's interesting to see that different military people have lived by the sword and then come out of it and lived by the pen. So it's been a really cool exposure for me. I one little part that I thought was really interesting. It's just so interesting how you can build a character. So this Chris Walker, I mean, I put down all these things about him. You know, he's a foster kid and, you know, he's this this gunslinger stranger that nobody knows who he is. And are you sure he's one man? He's got a mental level IQ. He's always underestimated. Like they don't my favorite line was when one of the bad guys so stupid says to him, you don't know what you're up against. And in his mind, he's like, neither do they. I was like, I loved. I love that line. Thank you. You know, and he does that. He does the training from the CIA training from the farm. He does pool comp. Like, you know, you learn about panic. Where does that work come from? So how an author can just like build a character like this? One of the things that stuck out to me was how he walked. So Bell is like, they're going to try and like mix in with these drug people. Talk about this. I'm like, what in the world? OK, so and she's like, you can't go. Yeah. And he's like, well, I look like I'm homeless. And she's like, no, she's like, you walk like you're an assassin. They're going to know. And so in when I talk to these other guys about like their books, they were talking about disguise. And how if you look at their first book, it was like, well, the people would change their hair and they would put on a mustache. And like they had these different disguises. And they said, that doesn't work anymore. You know, there's facial recognition. And here's what they said. They said, if you really truly wanted to disguise yourself, you would also have to put a rock in your shoe because people can recognize you by your gate. Yeah. And that was a really cool part for Chris Walker. It was like, you know, even how he presented himself. Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. And she says that you move like a cop because that's her her kind of world experience is how she can put people in different categories. And she's not putting people in the assassin category, but it's the police officer category type of thing. Like, no, you move like a cop. You can't help it type of a thing. You're not you're not a cop. But that's kind of that's how you move different than these than these other people out here. And they're going to know. And so he can't go to that. That's certain that's certain part of the book. And it's certainly true. And then he gets recognized essentially because of that. And they and the CIA person who identifies him doesn't even need to see the video. And I want to have the video in there, but then I'm like, they're in a skiff. So I can't have the video in there. So I'm going to have to have change this and have the have the CIA guy recognize him just by a photo of how he's moving type of a thing. And he's like, I know that guy. I don't need to see the video. I know exactly who that is. So that was a cool, cool part as well. It was fun to write. All right. It's called the fourth option. It's coming out right before Father's Day. That's what you want to get for your dads, for your grandpas. You write, you write this on your website, because people can join your book club. You have a book club and you say, be a rebel, read, be a rebel. Start your day with a good read. Reading is now the ultimate act of defiance against digital tyranny. And again, I haven't heard it yet. Digital tyranny. At one point in our history, picking up arms against tyranny was the ultimate act of defiance. If you want to be a rebel today, pull out a book instead of a phone. Make yourself the outlier. Stand out, decide to live and lead a richer, fuller life, unencumbered by the digital leash. Books have shaped my life in more ways than I can count. And you know, it's really cool, Jack. I've thought about I have never hardly seen a man read. Oh, that just killed me. Even in the airport. I see you're in the airport all the time and I love it. I love when I see your books in the airport, but I've seen one. I and I don't fly a ton, but I'm like, I've seen one man reading. And that stands out. But people must be reading. There otherwise, there wouldn't be a market. Yeah, the reading still. But I'm trying to create new readers. And that, you know, as as older readers, essentially, you know, die off from a lot of those authors that I read growing up that have been reading those books since the 60s, 70s, you know, 80s. And they're now in their 80s and 90s. And who are they being replaced by? They're not being replaced by a generation of readers or being replaced by a generation of scrollers to the detriment of society. And that person's individual life, I think. But when I see someone reading in the airport, it stands out. It stands out. Because everybody's glued to that phone at the airport. Me included. I'm trying to work, you know, some a lot of times. Am I trying to do a quick post before I jump on a flight or something like that? But when I get on that flight, I never get the I never get the in flight Wi-Fi ever. My phone goes on airplane mode and I have that book book out and I get how long that flight is. I'm reading the entire time. And I absolutely love it. No distractions. So I'm either writing or reading. But someone reading in an airport, they sure do stand out today. So I'm just on a mission to create as many new readers as possible. Don't even get there. They don't read me. That's great. That's why I recommend all these other people's books in my in my book club. And and I just want people to it's a read. And once again, it's it's it's more for that compassion and empathy you get by putting yourself in someone else's shoes than for any other reason. Because when that compassion and empathy dies out across the across the board across civil discourse, then we're really in for it. That's right. The one person I saw reading this was so cool. I was in one man reading in an airport in the last five years I've been flying and his kid was reading next to him. Nice. And I was saying that, you know, and you're like, wow, you really see. You really see how that trickles down. I love it. Jack Kerr, 10th book, the fourth option. Thank you. Congrats. Thank you so much. I love talking to you. I really appreciate everything and can't wait to talk to you about the next one. Same.