Parenting Is Leadership with Simon Sinek

Here's something I want to come out and say directly. Parenting is a form of leadership. Leadership that term holds a lot of weight, leaders, leadership, learning, the skills to be a great leader. If you're a parent and you're listening to this, I want to say to you directly, you are the leader, you are the CEO of one of the most important organizations in the world and without a doubt the most important organization in your world. You're family home. And so for today's episode, you can see I'm straightening myself up in my chair because I'm so excited. I will be talking to one of my favorite leadership experts, Simon Sinek. Simon has such a unique perspective on leadership. He is both putting out ideas where leaders are so strong and so human. They can embody their authority and they also see the value of connecting to and listening to other people. I love learning from him. And I'm so excited for you to hear a conversation about leadership and his ideas and how they all directly connect to what we're all doing every day with our kids. Before we jump in, I just want you to give yourself something. I want you to tell yourself right now. I'm a leader. Watch for self-criticism. That's not true. I'm just a dad. I'm just a mom. Put that on the shelf. We can't get rid of it, but we can put it to the side. And I want you to try on the idea that you are a very important leader. That's how I see you. And that's how I want you to take in this conversation. I'm Dr. Becky and this is good inside. We'll be back right after this. I feel like on the surface, all the things you do around leadership and organizations, things I do, parenting families can feel so different. But I feel like whenever we talk, we often feel like we're actually talking about the same thing. And maybe the one, one of the ways we're representing that is both wearing C-foam green furthest conversation, showing all the ways we're similar. We're in solidarity. Exactly. I'm glad we plan that out. But I want to start with your area. And I feel like so much of what we'll talk about will be leadership, parenting. I have a feeling so many themes are kind of exactly identical. But given you've worked with so many leaders, so many CEOs and so many orgs, I guess I'd love to start with. You probably listen to so many things where there's so many different things on the surface. But my guess is you hear a lot of similar patterns. What are the themes that kind of come up most often when you dive into leadership? So there's patterns that are consistent all the time, every time. And there are patterns that happen based on what's going on in the world. Okay. You know, there was a period where literally every question was about millennials. Because millennials apparently, when they were coming up through the ranks were unleadable. You know? And now it's funny because the millennials and leadership are complaining about the next generation. But so, you know, those things sort of come and go depending on the times. But the consistent things are as you would expect, its personalities, its feedback, it's, I don't feel heard, it's, nobody cares about me. It's, I want to feel a sense of purpose and belonging, you know, at work. I don't have that. If you're in a leadership position, it's disengagement. It's, it's obviously people asking questions about performance. So those things are fairly common. Some of the trickiest things that come up over and over. Just give me one. I want to dive into like one story, one example that in your mind, you hear a lot of versions of around leadership. So if you're, if you're rank and file, it's, my boss doesn't get it. I get that so often, my boss doesn't get it. And what they're talking about is feeling a part of an organization where leadership is driven by numbers, by quarterly results, where all the incentive structures are based on individual performance. People are compensated based on the price of the stock price. And what ends up happening is it leaves the people who have to come to work every day, feeling like they're simply a number that, that human beings who are running the organization don't even view them as fellow human beings in the organization. That is pervasive, absolutely pervasive. So when you say these words, like, they don't get it. I hear a little bit, like they don't see me. I'm not a person in an organization as much as seen as a number for output. Is that similar? The basic what they're saying is they don't get the stuff that I'm talking about and writing about. That, and it's embarrassing that I have a career. I talk about trust and cooperation. There should be no demand for my work. And yet there is demand for the work because people want to come to work and feel like they matter. People want to come to work and feel like somebody sees them as a human being. There's some funny data and I get the exact numbers wrong but you'll get the idea where the average number of people who are disengaged at work is something like 70 or 80% something crazy, right? And if somebody gets yelled at for something they did wrong, disengagement goes to something like 40 or 50%. And if somebody gives you one compliment that tells you how great you are or something that you did well, disengagement goes to something like 20%. The point being, the point being, that I think that I love about that is that getting yelled at actually makes you more engaged than being ignored because at least somebody knows that I'm here, right? At least somebody knows that I'm doing something and I find that absolutely hilarious. You know what's interesting Simon to connect this to parenting? I don't have data to spit back at you but I have stories of, and a lot of similar stories of someone saying, think back on my childhood. And I think back about my soccer games and my football games, my dad, my mom never showed up. And I'm not saying I want my friends, parents, who basically were yelling at them the whole time. But I would rather that than my parents who didn't show up because at least it was a form of caring. I don't know if that resonates, that's really similar. Now we all want some other version which was some version of like, I love watching you play and maybe later I have some feedback if relevant, right? But connection being present, showing in any way that you're invested in someone enough to engage with them and emote with them and talk to them and respond to them in leadership and parenting seems to be really important. Well, I mean, you remember the TV show The Osborne, right? This semi-functional family of Ozzy Osborne and Sharon Osborne and the kids. And I remember at the time when it was really popular, people was shocked and saying, oh my God, this is terrible that we just see this family yelling at each other the whole time. And folks like you and parenting experts said, no, no, no, no, they're communicating, they're engaged, they clearly love each other, they care clearly, care about each other. And that is actually quite good and they're a very close and tight-knit family because they're in it. As opposed to everybody just going to their rooms separately and ignoring each other and eating separately and doing everything separately, this is the better model. And I remember reading articles about that this was the better model. You know, I often think with kids, but it is interesting to think about in the workplace, I hadn't made that extension. So you're expanding my brain where, especially little kids that we think about, do I matter as a question? But I believe there's something so much deeper and existential happening for kids that I wonder if it happens at work too. Like, do I impact the world? Does anybody see me, right? Being a human is very weird, especially with our feelings. Like, as someone responding to me and I do think little kids, especially when they get upset, when they have feelings which are so confusing, I tell older kids this too, feelings don't have a marker. Pain isn't great, but when you skin your knee and you're bleeding, there's something useful about that. You're like, that's real. I see the blood, right? If you're sick and your doctor says, oh, you have the flu, oh, there's a marker, it's real. The way we go about life with our feelings and our ideas are so confusing because there's no blood test, there's no blood in pain. And so much of what we have is how someone responds to us. So when a parent says, you know, some version of, look, I'm putting off the TV, there's no more TV. And you know me, I'm gonna hold that boundary, but when I do say to my kid, I get your upset. I don't like people making decisions for me either. I honestly don't love ending screen time either. And I agree watching another show is more fun than cleaning up. You have every right to be upset. I feel like I'm kind of saying even more than you matter. I'm saying like all the things going on for you are real. You are real. And I think what you're saying at work is that is so important for people to feel every day. Knowing that we matter, I think is a huge part. We wanna know that we matter in the world. We wanna know that our work matters in the world. And this is where like organizations that are truly purpose driven or vision driven, you can feel like I'm contributing something bigger than myself. I mean, this is the same reason people find connection in volunteer work or religion, which is I feel like I'm a small player in something that really, really matters. When you talk about scraping the knee, where my head goes in that is about accountability, right? Which is you can't gaslight someone because of their scraped knee. Yes. Right? But when somebody has a feeling, which is an intangible thing, and I share accountability in the creation of this wound, because I can't see it and it's not diagnosed, and I can't take a temperature and say, look, you said that and now look what happened to my knee, right? That it's easy to invalidate people's feelings because I feel like an ass, I feel bad. So to alleviate my own stress, I'll invalidate your feelings. Oh, okay, we're going to play a game with this. You're going to give me a work example where that happens and then a version where it doesn't happen. And I'm going to kind of translate that to the parenting world because this is so important at work and in leadership. So where might that happen? Someone's having a feeling, you know, it's not visible. There's no blood test for it, but it feels real for them. So it happens every day in every meeting. Yep. Right? When somebody expresses concern about a decision, right? And somebody will say, instead of saying, tell me more what's your concern, the knee jerk reaction is, I think you're wrong, Bob, you know? And that's it. The discussion is over. And the person actually wasn't looking to be right. They were looking to getting, it'd be involved in the conversation. And I love what you're pointing to is a moment that a part of our brain can be like, that's a tiny moment, but it's the accumulation of these tiny moments that really affect how people feel. And then also how productive you can be the culture, all of that. So this idea of Bob speaks up and is like, I don't know about this decision. And I think what you're saying is, more than anything I do believe as humans, we are looking to be believed. Which doesn't mean we need to make a decision based on someone believing us. Those two things get conflated all the time. If as a manager, I say to Bob, whoa, you're concerned about this, tell me more about that. Let me hear. That doesn't mean I have to do what Bob says. A lot of time leaders have many more, much more information. They have a more long term vision. And so emotional validation for other people doesn't mean allowing those people's feelings to dictate your decisions. Those are totally separate. And I think it's the exact same with a kid. I'll just go back to the TV example. Oh, you don't want to turn off the TV, right? Oh, you were thinking about watching two episodes. I didn't make it clear. It was just one. I get all your upset. And people are surprised that as I'm saying that, I'm still shutting off the TV. Like those are separate things, but it makes all the difference. Well, I think it also plays into sort of right and wrong me versus you versus we're a team with a common goal. You know, and when somebody speaks up to question a decision, you know, hopefully their intentions are in the right place, you know, that they're trying to say, I care about this company, I care about the direction, I care about the decisions we make. And I'm going to give, I'm going to give a point of view with the hope that it's considered. And when that is discounted and not heard, it's creating me versus you right versus wrong and sometimes playing up the hierarchy. I'll give you an example that we've embraced in our organization that has been essential to us functioning better as a team and getting rid of this right and wrong. So in the business world, if somebody works really hard, let's say on their PowerPoint, they spend two weeks working really hard on their PowerPoint and they give the presentation and at the end of the presentation, the response, the right at the end, they usually go, eh, pretty good, right? Like validate all my effort, right? Please, that's pretty normal. I did some work with the Air Force and same thing, somebody spends two weeks working on their PowerPoint, they come into the room, they give their presentation. And at the end of the presentation, they go, spears, spears, they don't ask a validation about how good my work is, they ask the room to offer spears, poke holes in my work so that my work can be better. And it is a cultural thing. And so everyone is expected to help each other, make each other's work better because we're all on this together. And this idea of spears is so valuable because it does two things. One, it communicates, this is a team effort and two, it gets people comfortable getting feedback that maybe perceived as negative, but really it's about a point of view that I think I can help make your work better. It's love. It's love, it sounds like there's two things. Number one, more than anything else, we're all on team company. We're all on team Air Force, we're all on team company. Our job is to help make the company better. And part of that is my own growth. And so I can't, there's no way I can grow without feedback, right? So question, realistically, what do you notice gets in people's way of that actually happening in reality? We know people can feel so deflated by feedback, can feel so, right, unmotivated or maybe they feel it gets a character attack. You've worked so many people. What have you learned actually helps people take feedback as a way to grow instead of seeing it as an attack? So there's two answers that come to mind. One is, and I'll tell you a story. So I had somebody who worked with me who I wanted to give some feedback to and it never went well. And I would try different ways and it just never went well. And the problem with feedback is we tend to give feedback the way we like to receive it. So I like it blunt into the point and so I tend to give it blunt into the point and it doesn't always go well. And I would try and temper and we had more than one instance where it ended up as a shouting match. And it took us an hour just to get back to baseline, forget about the feedback. And at some point frustrated, I said, I gotta give you feedback. This can't keep happening. This is not fun for either of us to help me here. I'm stuck. And she said, I just need you to prepare me. That's all. You just start telling me thing. And so I just need you to say, can I give you feedback now and then let me say yes or let me say, can we schedule it for an hour from now so I can prepare myself? And so now by me asking permission to give feedback, can I give you some feedback? It sets the other person up that we are jointly into this. There's joint accountability in what's about to happen. From that, I simply, and so it's simply learning what she needed, I could adjust my style very simply and she could take harsher feedback than almost anybody in the company, if I set it up in the way that she needed it set up. And so what I've learned since that is asking permission is a fantastic way to do pretty much everything, especially feedback. And people know what they want and people know what they need. So for example, if somebody says, can I talk to you? I'm struggling. I can say, do you want me to hold space? Do you want me to listen or do you want me to offer a point of view? And people can say, no, I want your opinion. As opposed to trying to fix something where somebody just needs you to feel heard. And I've had this experience as well where I called somebody up and I was having a bad time of it and I started sort of letting it out and my friend starts fixing everything. And I could interrupt and say, hey, thank you. I need, please, I don't want you to fix anything. I just need you to, I just need you to listen to me right now. And the friend could adjust. And so we can tell people what they need, what we need. We can ask people what we need and we can give each other the feedback even in the moment and it works to adjust. And so there's two things. One is as somebody who's a feedback giver, you have to adjust and learn different styles to meet the needs of others. And you don't have to guess. You can ask somebody, how do you like to receive feedback? What do you want? How do I make this go well so that you can hear the stuff that I want to tell you in the way that you want to hear it? And then adjust. It's that simple. And to make believe to parents, you know, I think one of the things you're doing when you say permission to give feedback or you're kind of contracting, you're contracting for the moment, right? So I'm in, I'm like you, I move really quickly. I love feedback at all moments, but my speed, I know can feel really jarring to someone. They're like, I thought you were about to tell me about your weekend and all of a sudden, it's like that my nervous system wasn't prepared. So in addition to respecting someone's own process, I do think in the moment you're shoring up the relationship in a micro way. You're kind of saying, are we on the same page? And I do think the same thing is true for parents, right? And sports come to mind because it's been such a topic for so many families where probably after your kid plays a 60 minute basketball game and you've been watching on the sideline, they're exhausted. I don't think a kid wants to hear about their layups or their passing or their decisions when the game was on the line at all, right? Just like, if I, no, no, no one thinks I'm a basketball player, that doesn't sound realistic. I'm barely five one, but let's say that was part of my life. And I did that. The last thing I won is my husband to be like, hey, Becky, I have notes for you. Oh, thank you. No, thank you, right? The other thing I want to say just directly so parents can make the bridge is so many times and our kids are upset. I was the only one not invited to this birthday party. Oh, I'm having the situation with my friend on the playground. I think what happens is we really want to be useful as parents. We really do. And I think we assume the best way to be useful is to give advice. It probably is the least effective way to be useful, but we can hold it as an option and saying to a kid, even a young kid, hey, before I say anything, first of all, thank you for telling me this. Do you want to hug? Do you want me to say nothing? Do you want to think about what to do next time? And again, asking a kid that at a young age, kids will often tell you, oh, I just need to get this out of my system or yeah, I just kind of want to hug. And so I love what you're saying, Simon, even for parents, is that you don't have to guess. Like you can also ask. Yeah, I mean, people kind of know what they need in the moment and they can change their minds too, which is, and it makes for an easier flow. I mean, my rule is you meet emotion with emotion, you meet facts with facts, never bring facts to an emotional gunfight. And my favorite example is I went to see a friend's performance and he was easily the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. And I wish I could have walked out because I would have done it twice if I could have. And it was awful. And at the end of the show, I'm in the lobby with the friends and family, you know, and my friend comes out, still in makeup and costume, all jacked up on adrenaline from coming off the stage. She comes running up to me with a big smile on her face and she says, what'd you think? Now, she knows me to be an honest broker. But the problem is, is like, I believe in being honest and I believe in being honest all the time, but I can't bring facts to this an emotional state. She's jacked up on adrenaline and still full of it. Now is not the time or the place. And so I said, it was so amazing to see you on the stage. True. I've seen you do your thing before. True. I'm so glad I came to see you. All true. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. And she moves on, right? Three days later, I'm on the phone with her. And I said, by the way, did you want me to tell you what I thought of the performance? And she goes, actually, I do want to know what you thought. I said, okay, the lighting sucked, the acting sucked, the sucked, and let me tell you why they sucked. And we had a rational conversation and we talked about it and it was perfectly fine. And she really wanted that input. But the point is I had a rational conversation in a rational setting, but you cannot have a rational conversation in an emotional setting. And I know this is true in your world. I mean, like even in my relationship, I said to my girlfriend, I said, hey babe, I gotta talk to you. You did something this week that made me feel this way. And you did it six times even when I asked you to stop. And she says to me, well, I actually did it four times. And I said, it doesn't matter how many times you did it. And she said, well, if you're gonna complain to me about something, get your facts right. Right? And the answer is no, no, the facts don't matter. What matters is the feelings. And please, can you meet feelings with feelings, meet facts with facts? And for somebody who's the giver or the receiver of the feedback, to be able to evaluate, is this emotional or is this rational? And my rule is anything to do with ideas or money is always emotional every time. Emotions, ideas, because all ideas are emotional, because they're by ideas, right? And so email and things like that are a terrible medium for emotional feedback because it's a rational medium. So pick up an emotional medium, which is, pick up the phone, walk into somebody's office, and it's like, hey, do you have a minute? Can I just respond to your idea that you emailed me? But because things are, because we don't know how somebody reads something when they're in an emotional state. And so this idea of matching the environment, I found to be essential and invaluable in any kind of feedback mechanism. Okay, parents, quick check in. If your brain feels like it's holding everyone's schedule except your own, you're not doing it wrong. You're carrying a lot. I see this all the time, school emails, activities, chores, dinner plans, and somehow it all lives in one person's head, usually moms. And that gets exhausting. That's why I love Skylight Calendar. It's a smart touchscreen calendar that takes everything swirling around in your brain, schedules, chores, meals, grocery lists, and puts it in one place. Where the whole family can actually see it and participate. It syncs with Google, Apple, Outlook, all of it. And you can color code each family member. So there's a lot less, wait, I didn't know in your house. Plus with the free Skylight Companion app, you can add or update events, lists, and more on the go. And I appreciate this. If after 120 days, you're not 100% happy, you can return it for a full refund. No questions asked. Right now, you can get $30 off a 15-inch Skylight Calendar at myskylight.com slash Becky. That's m-y-sk-y-l-i-g-h-t. dot com slash Becky. Caregiving is one of the biggest sources of stress for parents today. The data shows that most parents spend nearly every waking hour focused on someone else. And if you feel depleted, that's not failure. That's the reality of how much you're carrying. Another thing the data tells us is this, almost three quarters of parents, say having a stronger network of trusted caregivers would improve their mental and emotional health. And I see that play out all the time. When parents have real support, the mental load lightens a bit and they become more present, calmer, and more regulated. Care.com makes it easier to find that kind of support. With background check caregivers, reviews, and filters for the exact skills you're looking for, whether it's infant care before or after school help, camps, daycares, or senior care. And right now, care.com is offering something they've never offered before. For a limited time, use the code Good35 to get 35% off a premium membership. Plus, a free subscription to Headspace. Because when you have support, you can show up as your best self for the people you care for and for yourself. I love the way you do this often. I feel like it takes a tremendous command of something to use the most simple language. So thank you for a perfect example of that. Meet emotion with emotion and facts with facts. So a couple of things I want to say. On a lot of these, I've learned only the hard way. I think that's the only way we learn things. For me, I only learn things the hard way. Number one, people often think emotions are irrational and there's a morality judgment to it. Like it is superior to be rational and logical than to be in your emotion. And something I think is important to consider is like Spanish isn't ill-mandarin. It's just not Mandarin. Like there are two different languages. There's no moral superiority. And I think for anyone listening who can be honest, like we do sometimes place this moral superiority to ration, no mind and logic. But being in your emotion is just a different source of information. So I think the idea of meeting emotion, emotion, and logic with logic is such a beautiful way of saying, no, the goal isn't to get someone emotional, to be not emotional and be rational. It's just a completely different language. And I think to be successful in adulthood, we simply need both. You need Spanish and Mandarin. You need emotion and logic. The other thing I want to jump on with you though, meet emotion and emotion and logic with logic, whether it's at work or at home. I hear the parent who's saying, okay, my kids upset about not being invited somewhere. Or my employees upset about not getting a promotion when their colleague did, okay, they're having emotions. I don't know how to meet emotion with emotion. Like in my house, emotion was dangerous. It was shut down. I feel like there was this superiority of logic. Emotions were seen as bad and weak. So I'm curious how, I'm sure you see that all the time. What's your take on that? How do you deal with that? I mean, what you're talking about is the journey of becoming a leader. And I make this comparison all the time, which is the choice to become a parent is a lifestyle decision. Having a kid takes 15, 20 minutes on a good day. Max. Max. But raising a kid, that is a lifestyle decision. You can only travel during holidays. You're gonna lose sleep. You get to feed yourself second. You get to spend all your money on somebody who's ungrateful. Like, that's the decision that you've made to live in a completely different lifestyle. The choice to become a leader is the same thing. It's a lifestyle decision. Like you don't stop being a parent when you go to work, when you leave the house. Well, you don't stop being a leader when you come home and leave the office. Like, this is why people often describe leadership as a lonely position, right? And the choice to become a leader is a lifestyle decision. And anybody who chooses the lifestyle of a leader elect like a parent to go on the journey of education. You read books, you read articles, you talk to your friends, you talk to people who are in similar situations, you talk to your own parents, you talk to your own leaders, you talk to your old boss. And what you're doing is understanding that you'll never be the perfect parent. You'll never be the perfect leader, but you will constantly work to improve. And this is the lifestyle of a leader. This is a leadership lifestyle. And so your question about emotion or rational, any leader worth their salt, is on the journey of learning the skills of how to understand emotion, how to manage their own, how to help other people hold space for other peoples, how to give and receive feedback, how to listen actively, how to have a difficult conversation, how to have an effective confrontation. This is the lifestyle. This is the lifestyle you have elected and it's not just about the spreadsheet. It's about leading human beings. And when you choose to lead human beings and you choose to take care of those in your charge and accept the awesome responsibility of leadership, the responsibility to see those around us rise. No one is naturally equipped with these skills. Some of us were lucky enough to learn them from a coach or a parent or a teacher that was just good at it and we could model from them. But the rest of us, we've got to learn it. And so all of the things you're asking, any leader worth their salt should be asking themselves the same thing and doing whatever they need to do to learn those skills to be a better version of themselves, to be the leader they wish they had. Question for you. I feel like more than in the past, leaders at companies, it's more acceptable. I have an executive coach. I do stuff with Simon, I have this person. I even feel and I think about founders or CEOs. I know, they said, oh, I don't have a coach, I don't need that. I feel like everyone would judge them. Like now, like I'm not saying that was true years ago and it's not true everywhere. But I'm curious from your perspective, why do you think that's more accepted in work leadership than parenting leadership because I hear from parents all the time, what invest in parenting support? Like that would be admitting I'm a failure. Or maybe you do still hear that from leaders in the workplace. I think that one of the reasons become socially acceptable in the business world and I hope it becomes socially acceptable in the parenting world is you had a few very senior people modeled the behavior. And the minute somebody, if this says, hey, I want everybody to get a coach but the senior people don't get it, then nobody's getting a coach, right? But if the senior person says, hey, look, do this or don't do this, I have found it to be invaluable. I'm getting a coach. The company makes it available if you want it. We're not going to demand it if anybody. And you see the most senior people do it. And maybe even you force the most senior people to do, which is fine too. But the point is you had a few forward thinking senior people who were very, and they did it the most important as they did it publicly. That's it. They don't hide. They're like they talk about it. So if you had a few courageous parents at a PTA meeting at a dinner party when everybody there is a parent, if somebody just confidently announces, because it's not about the action, it's about the confidence, right? Where if you come into a, if you're at a dinner party and you're like, oh, Becky and I decided we needed a coach, it's just not going well. And like don't, that's not going to encourage anybody to do anything, right? But if you come to dinner party, be like, oh my God. It's been a disaster of the past few months and we realize we've run to the limit of our parenting abilities and we can only learn so much from our parents and friends. So we've actually signed up for a parenting coach and I gotta tell you, it's been amazing. That conversation amongst the number of couples that will go home that night going, you know, they got a parenting coach, maybe we should think about it too. And you get the early adopters who will all sign up for it first. And eventually, eventually it'll become a very standard and normal thing for parents to have a coach. That is hopeful. Okay, I want to bring something to you that I wonder about a lot. And I really wanted your opinion on because one of the things I talk about with parents almost more than anything is the power of repair. I always tell people, forget worshiping a perfect parent. We have a saying in our family, we say perfect is creepy, it just has a ring to it. And I think it's true. I do think it's creepy. It's like, unhuman. But it's tricky around, do I lose my power? I feel like I need my kid to apologize to me for so many things. How do you see that with leaders? Is that a sticking point to in work leadership? Do you feel like repair matters? Like can you just talk to me about that for a little bit? Of course repair matters because like the family, it's like you're going to have to show up with each other the next day and the next day and the next day. And so you can either sit in tension forever, which by the way affects performance and feels like dirt. And it makes you not want to come to work or you can step into the tension and deal with it. You need at least one person to have done some of the work to learn how to do repair. Ideally, it's great when both people do the work but you don't need both. You just need at least one. And I think even in relationships, we talk about managing difficulty, but we very rarely teach repair. One of my favorite people is Bay of Oce. She is out there. Her specialty is only repair because we don't have the skills for repair. And if you want us long successful relationship, marriage, work relationship, there's going to be hurt. There's going to be accidentally, we don't know what triggers people. Sometimes we don't listen. Sometimes we're assholes. Sometimes we respond badly. And sometimes we, and like one of my favorite things is it doesn't matter who started it. Like I remember I was having a fight with someone and the fight went like this. Well, you started it when you did this. Well, actually you started it when you did this. I don't think that's true. I think you started it. And this is how it's going, right? Which is one of us is looking to blame the other for getting us to where we are now. And I remember interrupting the fight and I said, look, we both have a different point of view of who started this. But here's one thing I know for sure. One of us absolutely started this. And the other one absolutely poured gasoline on it. And so whether I started it or you started it, what we do know is we are where we are now because of us. And so the question we have is should we try and get out of this together or do you want to keep going in the same direction? And you're one of the things that I always talk about with couples. I don't know if you've heard this, you probably have. Is it's like someone steps on the dance floor. And they're like, hey, do you want to do this awful dance? We both do where we scream at each other and blame each other. And the other one's like, yes, I would love to. And then you start doing the dance. Whose fault is that? Fault isn't usually that useful. You guys are doing a dance that isn't good for anyone. And you're both continuing to do the dance. So whose responsibility is it to stop doing the dance? It doesn't matter. Again, it's like the wrong question. The dance is the problem, which again, Simon, I think speaks to what you're saying. Actually, it's not me against you. It's us against this dance. We keep finding ourselves doing on this dance floor. And to go to your question about who starts and how does it go? Well, they should apologize to me. I, Dea Khan, who's a award-winning documentary maker, has learned remarkable amounts about this very subject. She's a Muslim woman living in the UK. She was trolled by white supremacists. And it got so bad that the police told her to stay away from open windows. And the way that she responded was by moving to the United States and getting to know the white supremacists who were trolling her. And she gave them a safe space to feel heard. Now, this sounds insane to people. The white supremacists should be giving her a safe space to feel heard, except for the fact that it's never going to happen. Yeah. And so she gave them the safe space to feel heard. She didn't obviously agree or validate, but she would discuss it with them in a safe environment. And you can watch it happen. She made a documentary about it called White Right Meeting the Enemy. And it's an astonishing thing to see. And over the course of time, what starts to happen is they no longer can reconcile their racist points of view with the fact that they now trust this woman and consider her a friend. And they struggle with that. And one by one, they start dropping out of the movement, including one of the leaders of one of the oldest white supremacist movements in the country. Dia has worked with white supremacists. She's worked with Gihadi's. She's worked with, I mean, you name it. She's worked with all of them. And I talked to her after January 6th. I talked to her after George Floyd. I talked to her after all these events. And we talk about reconciliation and repair. And she says to me, you're not going to like my answer. But in every experience I've had in everywhere I've studied, in every circumstance, the victim has to go first. And even though the victim says, I shouldn't have to. They should apologize to me. You're 100% right. It's never going to happen. And so when the victim, the one who feels hurt, can come in and say, can we figure this out? This isn't working. Yeah. And to first offer that person to first offer who we perceive as the oppressor, the safe space to feel heard, and allow them to empty their bucket first, only once their bucket is emptied, only once they feel heard, will then they be open to your point of view. And anything before that just doesn't work. And this is consistent in all of Dia's work. And so I've had to learn the courage when I'm the one who has felt that I'm on the receiving end. I've had to learn to say, how do you feel? And I've been in positions where people have said things to me that were triggering and made me immediately defensive. And I've had to learn the mantra while I'm sitting there in this listening practice. I've had to learn the mantra, this is their story. Their story doesn't have to be true. Your job is to listen to their story. This is their story. Their story doesn't have to be true. Your job is to listen to their story. Because otherwise, I'm just getting defensive and angry. And I've had it happen where I've done this. And I get to the end once they feel like they've been heard. And they start retracting some of the mean things they said without me saying a word. And then I can say, can I tell you my point of view? Can I tell you how I perceive the situation? And now they will listen to me. But it takes tremendous courage to be the listener, especially when you've also been on the receiving end of whatever's happened. I mean, you're actually ending with something that you began with, which is the importance of feeling heard, of mattering, and how much that opens any individual up to anything that could happen next. Now, the part on repair, it's interesting, because I thought I was about to disagree with something you said. But again, maybe it's the seafoam greenness of similarity. That's making me realize there's a similar theme that the person who feels like they're the victim or press often has to go first. Now, I talk about repair with parents all the time. Because I think there is something a little unique with kids. Because kids, their survival depends on their attachment with their parents. A lot of us adults have very important relationships, but we literally could survive without them, even if we don't want to. So when a kid is yelled at, or when mom, when Becky turns into scary mom, me, when they're on kids, it's like, oh, the person I need for comfort and safety has now become the person giving me fear and dysregulation that's very disorienting for kids. And they have to figure out how to feel safe again. And because they need us, if we don't repair, really the only answer they have is self-blame. It must be my fault. I'm a bad kid because I always think about this quote from Fairburn. And if you've heard it, it's better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than to live in a world ruled by the devil. So if I have a choice, I would need to take the badness in, rather than assume the badness is out. And the power of repair with kids is so powerful. Because instead of wiring one generation after another, with stories of self-blame, when anything is hard, which is why all of us as adults always go to, oh, I'm the worst. And you know, into our abyss, repair stops that, right? But the thing that I think I didn't consider until you brought it up is, okay, the person who feels oppressed has to go first. Parents often feel oppressed. My kids should apologize to me for not listening when I ask them to get their shoes on. But my kid complained about dinner after my hard work. And so maybe it's the same thing for a parent who's listening and thinking, well, I don't repair because I'm owed one first. It's true. I hear you, your kid did do something very, very annoying. But as the adult, and I often think with parents, we get our power back when we realize we can make the first move, rather than hoping my four-year-olds gonna like change the situation. Well, the difference here is we're introducing a paradigm. Yes. So with a couple or colleagues who are relatively unequal footing, then the concept of the victim should go first is true. But when there's a paradigm, all bets are off. And when there's a strict hierarchy in a company, and especially somebody who's very senior with somebody who's very junior, and like a parent with a kid, there's a very clear power dynamic. And there, I think that the responsibility lies with the person with the power. The leader. The leader has to go first. Because the leader is modeling behavior. And the leader is the one who, whether they're right or wrong, whether they feel that they're on the side of right, or whether they actually have guilt, either way, it doesn't matter. You're the parent. Like, you're the boss. Like, you have to go first. And at the very minimum, what you're doing is you're teaching repair, and you're teaching courage, and you're teaching, hey, can we talk? I need to hear, I need to tell you. And by the way, even if I reacted badly, and I want to own my part of it, I want to own my part of it. And that doesn't mean within an excuse, it's like, it's not because it's but this happened. The minute you say, but it's not true. But I just want to own my part of this, because I did this. I did that. And if you're a parent, if you're in a position of leadership, that's part of the job. That's part of that lifestyle. Part of the lifestyle is you get to take accountability more often. Went, went, that's the job, you know? Totally, totally. Okay, I could talk to you forever, but I want to end on the quickest rapid fire. I'm going to ask you five questions, quick answers. Are you ready? Go. Okay. Biggest misconception people have about what it takes to be a good leader. That it's natural. So good. What is one thing that good leadership requires emotionally? Courage. If you could give parents or leaders one sentence, one mantra, something to remember in a hard moment, what would it be? None of us is strong enough or smart enough to do this alone, so you better do it together. So helpful, so powerful, so brilliant. Thank you, Simon. I really, really hope we get to do something like this again. I learned so much from you and thinking to thoughts. And I'm so grateful for your work. Always a joy. Thanks, Becky. Big fan. Let me know what Cully want me to wear next time we meet up. Sounds good. Simon shared so many gems of wisdom. But I want to share with you the one thing that is living large in my brain. He said so boldly, so directly, so confidently. Being a leader or being a parent, it's not about the moment it happens. It's not about the moment you have a baby or the moment you're given the title CEO. Anyone can do that. It's actually about this lifestyle. It's about the journey. It's about all the decisions you make after, to yes, to learn about yourself, to work on how you manage your emotions, to connect to others, to be the first one to repair, to say perfect is never going to happen. But every day or every week, it could be 1% better. And I loved the way he was talking about that. Because I do think that's what I believe in. And the reward of being in that journey is incredible. When you see I'm able to make the harder choice, I feel proud I'm finding a win in the moment that used to send me spiraling. I'm so proud of how I show up in hard moments. There's nothing better and there's nothing more addicting. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground. Place a hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves. Even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon.