The Branding Balancing Act with Camille Moore

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This is a very, very special episode. And I'm very excited actually about this episode because I think I'm going to learn a lot. And I really hope you guys are going to learn as much as I do because I think when it comes to the beauty world and the industry, there are so many functional areas that we don't get to learn about. And I think branding, marketing, understanding all of the back end stuff is the stuff that consumers never see and we never get to even understand. So with me today is a true expert. I am truly one of her stands. I've been following her for such a long time on social media and she's amazing. So without further ado, please welcome Camille Moore to the show. Welcome Camille. So excited. Hello. I'm pumped. Let's help some providers find their way because it is so saturated and so hard to navigate. Yeah. It's, I mean, that's I think an understatement because from what I've seen, people are very, very much lost, especially right now, the way social media is. I mean, you know much more about this than I do. So without me ranting, I would love to get started with your background because it's very impressive and you really know what you're doing. So can you tell all of us like what got you into the space like marketing, branding, all of it? It's a really crazy story. And I recently realized that there were so many points that indicated like, remember that MTV show like born for this? Like I just like there were so many moments of like there was no other possible path but this one. But the short story is I grew up I'm blue collar parents. I mean, they worked so hard. My mom worked three jobs just so I didn't know that we were poor because she wanted to give me experiences that she didn't have growing up. So I had a very, a childhood full of love, but I didn't have, I had to pay for myself to go to school. I had a job since I was 14. And when I got to university, I thought I wanted to be a lawyer because I just wanted to be successful. Like I was the first, I was the first kid, first daughter, first woman in my family to go to university. And I just wanted whatever I did. Like I really wanted a different life for myself. And I thought it was going to be law, but I had to pay for myself to go to law school, which is much cheaper in Canada than in the US, but still, you know, no small sum. So I got myself an internship at a law firm and he was tough on me and he gave me great responsibility. And I realized that law wasn't as much of the performance as it seemed on TV. It was a lot more of like clerical and it was just, it wasn't, it wasn't how it's glamorized. And I really didn't love it. And that's why I recommend young people, anyone listening to this that has kids is like, get them to try the career before they go to school for it. Seems so simple, but man, like, I think that's a big reason as to why I've been successful is that I kind of, I was able to weed that out when I was still in my undergrad. And the gentleman that I worked for was like, don't get into law. He's like, get into marketing. He's like, you can, you will get into law school. Like you can have a career in this, but you will have joy and purpose if you pursue this because you're so naturally good at it. And the piece I missed there is I started marketing as law firm on Facebook. And this was like 13 years ago, maybe 12 years ago. And I've read it as logo and the phone started blowing up off the hook. Like it was, it was like absolute pandemonium. And he's like, one, I got to quit my waitressing jobs because he's like, I'll hire you to do marketing. This is really working. And then he started introducing me to like medical spas and doctors and realtors, those service providers in the area where I went to school. And I was able to hire friends and I was making way better money than when I was at home. And that was so he helped me actually incorporate third eye insights. And that is 10 years next year. And so I started in kind of the boring industries. And that did very well because they had money and they needed help with marketing. And it was before this ground swell of like, everyone needs to be on social. So it was the perfect timing. And long and the short is that I kept growing. I got a great job at a public company because we were the guy I worked for was like the first got the first medical cannabis license in Canada. So when it went federally legal, I understood the AMPR, which was the medical, like the medical designation of the product. And then when it went commercially available, it was very strictly regulated. There's very few people that knew how to market it. So I got a really great job right out of school. I had the agency on the side. And the long story long is the rest is kind of history. So I started with service providers, the content that I started creating, which took me a long time to start doing that, probably only started doing content four or five years ago now. But I started with service providers. And that's why I love talking to medical spas, to clinicians, to surgeons, because I get it. And that's where I got good at working with like the, you know, the fancy CPG brands and the, you know, the designer luxury houses, like the van Cleefs of the world. But I started in the quote unquote boring industries. And when I could master that, the rest was easy. Because as long as you understand the principles to how to sell online through the unglamorous shit, so that was my, that's my story. That's amazing. I love that. Because I think there's so much, I mean, we have a, we have a few young professionals that tune in. And I think that's such a huge like learning lesson, because like, I feel like every industry needs to preach about that. You know, you got to do the boring stuff, you know, master the boring shit. Yeah, yeah, you got to man, you got to learn somewhere, you know, and if you learn the boring and the hard stuff, everything else is going to be cake afterwards. So that's huge. And you know what's cool too is because I was just a poor kid from Scarborough, it just, it was like, there was no, there was no possibility, there was no potentiality that a brand like Van Cleef could call me in five, six years. Like, so my brain was just like, if I can just, you know, I'm like, this is so cool to be able to work on this American medical spa. And like that to me was like, I made it. Like, that level was like, it was big. And like, I just kept working hard at those pieces. And like, I think another thing to really set off this conversation for success is I really am just a poor kid from Scarborough, like all of these cool brands that you can see on my page or on my website are like, it all came from social media. And like, that's why you got to do it is because the world is literally this big as soon as you put yourself out there. And like the best part to hear is that it sucked when I started. And it was embarrassing when I started. The only time it started to not become embarrassing was when I started getting opportunities and I stopped caring about the people around me, what they thought, because up until I kid you not, this past year is when all those effing people that knew me for the last 10 years are like, you know what actually it was about a week ago, funny enough that we're doing this really famous celebrity facialist, incredible human being. I'm so glad I've been able to connect with her. And she did this video after the event and she's like meeting Camille was like meeting Oprah. She's like, I met so many people. She's like, I'm so impressed. And all these people from back home was like, all that hard work, Camille, so proud of paid off. And I'm like, where the f of you? Yeah, where were you? Where was it? Yeah, man. Judging me, you've been saying things. And my point to you is don't give, don't stop caring with the people around you. You have to grow outside of that box. They don't want you to, it's when we were in Ireland, there's this Irish idea of notions when you have these notions about yourself. And that's how it feels when you start creating content online. It's like, I'm too good for these people around me. And it's like, no, stop that. You have to be, you cannot connect with the people that you are meant to change their lives until you start creating content. Because on a one-on-one basis, you can impact such a small number versus when you start creating content, it gets so much bigger. Yeah, like your bubble keeps growing and growing. And that's one of my biggest, like honestly, when I was like thinking about what I wanted to ask you, one of my biggest questions, and I'm glad you started here was this, right? Because right now, and like I've interviewed hundreds of beauty brands, amazing, amazing brands, right? Great founders, lovely products. But where I get confused as a consumer and also somebody that's just watching, right, is where do we connect the dots between someone who's influencing on social media? Like you create phenomenal content, I watch your content on binge watch it, okay? And I never get enough of it. And then you have brands, which I often feel like, and I hate to, I'm not trying to be a hater, but like, it sucks. I mean, it sucks. But you know why? Because I don't, I'm not trying to sell. I'm not trying to sell you. I'm trying to build a relationship with you. I just want to give you value. But if you were selling something, I would buy because I trust your content. You see what, like, you see where like, I, but what's interesting is I am selling something, but I don't want to sell to you. The whole, the only reason why I create content is because I have 25 incredible employees that have children that have lives, and the content stimulates our agency. Every client we get is online off social media. So all the content I create is inbound marketing sales. But I don't show up every single day and be like, Hey, do you want to hire our agency? Third eye insight specializes because people don't care about that. People don't go online for that. But if you connect, if you just, if I can connect with you, and if I can give you value, and I can think of you, maybe at some point down the line, I will be the right person for you. And that's really the biggest thing for people listening is I now no longer like, when people reach out to hire us, they're not thinking about hiring three or four other agencies, they just want Camille and her team. And what's amazing is that not only is that great, because like, I've never done an RFP in my life, and I work with the biggest brands and all my way to Nike today. But on top of that, the people who reach out are my people because they've watched so much content. They're like, you know, maybe like some people could be like, she's rough around the edges. She's not quite for me, you know, the way that she said that, I didn't love, and that's okay. I don't need to be for everyone. But there's enough people in the world that I'm the perfect person for, and I can't find you unless I connect with you. So that's the big thing that businesses miss is that you are spending money on social media. So your brain goes, I have to make that money back, therefore I have to sell. But nobody goes online to be sold to you are sold to when the content is engaging or entertaining, and you're being primed and like, there's enough randomness happening that you're ready, you're ready to kind of be sold to. But we don't go online to get your October specials. Exactly. Exactly. And you know, another thing, and you kind of brought this up, is this whole idea of like, like you said, you know, people might think you're rough around the edges. I, when I view your content, the reason I resonate with it is because I love no BS people. That's just me. That's how I live my life. And that's how I like to watch content. You know, like, I relate to people like that. And so for me, the biggest question becomes when I'm watching certain brands or whoever it is, right? It's like, at what point are you guys going to decide like the BS has to go out the window, you know, because like consumers aren't dumb, you know, we all know at this point, like you're selling us a product. So then like bringing in that authenticity, I'd love for you to speak on this, right? Like, authenticity and like that voice, that's still aggressive enough to where it's going to hit the people like me that are like, I love the no BS, you know, but it's not going to, I don't know, position the brand in a way that that's like too aggressive. Like what are your thoughts on that? I think it's a really interesting question. And that's where it's hard to answer because in through the lens of there is no binary answer when it comes to branding. And in medical aesthetics, you get a lot of right brain thinking, it's what it's what the schooling system rewards. But the problem is like, there isn't a blueprint for winning and like in a branding context, because brand, what makes brands so psychologically fascinating to me is that it's this tangible and intangible thing. Like it's like it's a person, like when you think about like, I always talk about if you close your eyes and you picture the Nike hotel, versus if you close your eyes and you picture the sweet green hotel, we could for a high degree of certainty almost guess that same hotel. But it's like, like, how do we do that? And it's because and like that's the thing that's like hard fuel that are super right brain that are very math and science is like, we can so clearly see it, but like how, and especially because the whole point of this is it's supposed to not be like anything else that came before. So the first part of this is it's not about being binary. It's about understanding what is your point of difference, what makes you unique, and what's authentic to who you are. And I think that's the big thing that's really quite complicated with socials is that you can see trending audios or trending dances. But if you're a very stoic pragmatic person that shows up and isn't crazy emotive, it doesn't make sense for you to be dancing online. So that's the first part. Yeah. The second part is you also though have to be a character. And that's another thing too is like you have to bring people into your world. That's why I talk so much about world building in that whatever you're doing, you're creating this small part of the internet that when someone engages with you, you're giving them a passport for what that should look like. And that's why when I'm authentically being me, in fact, I've had to be more me like it hasn't been like sometimes I like I lean in and I'm quite blunt or like I'm quite like, you know, like I'll say things that that growing up I might not have said. But what I realized is that people want a more extreme version of me. They want this character of Camille. And so there's kind of two things that you need to master and figure out. And the reason why this is a bit vague is what people miss is that they see socials as very important to their business, which is 100% correct. But socials is an extension of brand businesses that do the best online have very clear brands. It's why road was sold for a billion dollars. You could guess with a high degree of certainty what words are in their brand core, because their socials have a very unique feeling have a very unique feel vibe. And that's what people miss. So what I need you to do first, and I actually the I created the social media masterclass and I have a physical planner that's launching and it actually came from me working with right brain people, surgeons, doctors, medical spas, because they were the ones that struggled the most of like, I get it, but give me a blueprint. And I'm like, I need to change the way you think. So the way you need to start is really identifying your brand and a very clear and concise framework so that how you build your socials has to connect with your brand. Like you can't say you're a disruptive head of the curve person, and then say nothing interesting online, like I say I'm disruptive, and I'm truly disruptive, like those two things track. So yeah, that's what makes things great online. So it's less of like, I know this is a long winded answer, but my hope is that you understand that like, the way that I talk when I do my keynote is that a brand is like a symphony. And the reason why I use this is I did this amazing, I got to fly, I was flown to the number one classical music school in the world in Vienna, Austria. And I got to learn how on one hand, which is like funny, how different the personality types are of like the drummers and the flutes, like drummers are the biggest part of yours, like they're always coming in hungover. And I asked like the conductors of the school, and they gave me kind of these like personality types for the mute for the instruments. But what I realized in working there, and like this is what really made brand click for them is that when you hear a song, you hear it in totality, you don't hear it, like you're not like celebrating the cellist versus the flutist, like they're working as part of a bigger thing. And that's why socials is an extension of brand is like socials are important, but it's but it's an instrument of a larger symphony. It's why your EMR onboarding the way that your customer service talks to you at the front desk, the music that you're playing, if you're a luxury high and spa, why are you doing monthly sales? Like, does that track? Does it make a cohesive song? And if you don't think in terms of brand like that, it's not that you insult the customer, it's not like a proverbial Bud Light moment. It's that instead, because the song is in 100% perfect, they just move on, like they just get distracted. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense, actually, because like, you're right, like I feel like a lot of times what we see on social media is like one, it's like a bubble, it feels like a bubble, right? Like brands are creating an experience for us to have an interaction with on social media, which I completely understand. But then it sometimes I'm like, where did you why didn't you bring in like all the really cool stuff, right, from like your actual R&D process or like, I don't know, something that's really unique about you, like I interviewed, I can't tell you, there's so many people that I've interviewed that I'm like, you're brilliant, you know, like your science is freaking awesome, you know, and why I'm trying to figure out, aren't you leaning into that? You're so focused on I need to copy Haley Bieber, but you have your own thing and it's not a difference. Yeah, so like that's where I have a question for you about that too, because it's like, where is that tipping point? Do you think for brand founders, where you find your voice in a meaningful way where you can say, now I'm ready for social media, now I'm ready for that, you know, public presence, you know, the problem to get a bit deep is that this stuff is simple, but simple is not easy. And like, that's the piece that the problem is that the barrier to entry for math and science is complicated because it requires like foundational knowledge in order to like keep graduating branding seems like fleeting and non cerebral because we just it's all around us and we consume it, we've been we've been consuming it since we're children. So like the psychology of what makes something brilliant or sensical or like how to differentiate, it's not as easy when you don't respect the craft, because like that's the reason of why these brands can make so much money, but they also spend so much money in that the difference for like, it's really manipulation, like the difference to manipulate is worth billions and trillions of dollars. So it's supposed to come across as super simple and mindless, like when you go to the grocery store and you pick bound to you like over the others and like you don't think about how much money and like work one into like even the tagline of like the quicker picker upper, like it's just it's the whole point is for it to come across as simple. So the the the answer to your question is that it's something that you need to study as if you're going back to school, like you have to take it that seriously, and it's not as fleeting and like that's the problem is like people use like, I'm going to be the next Uber of blah or like the next road and it's like that exists and you're not bad. So like we need to figure out what that is and like you also have to have the common sense of like, is this my skill set? And that's where you need to figure out if there's someone that you need to hire because it really is the difference. Do I think you can do it on your own? Absolutely, but it's you have to do the work. And I think that's the thing that people miss is that they just think that it's like a box to check and they can hire a 21 year old and they're going to have a great brand and like the longer you're not involved and you don't understand these things, the longer you're going to struggle. So it's not as simple as like, you're not road, do these four things to figure out what yours is, you really have to go through a mindset shift. It's like if you want to lose weight, like it's not about just going to the gym, like you have to understand like calories, inverse calories out, you have to figure out like, how are you going to do this over time? You have to know that like you're not going to lose 20 pounds in a week. Like it's the same thing. It's just in a different way. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. And then also, like, you know, one of the things that I'm always curious about, and I've heard this a lot, you know, online and a lot of people speak about this in the industry as well as like now we're shifting where you founders are now becoming like the face, you know, and I think you really, really demonstrated that. I really like the road, like we saw that with her, you know, she was the face. That led to this incredible, you know, movement that happened with her brand, right, where people were buying into her lifestyle. But like, I mean, how does that translate to the normal creator deep in your opinion in terms of should you spend the time to build your online presence first, and then put your brand second, or should you build the brand and then figure out what your online presence needs to be? Like, what are your questions? Great question. Great question. So the thing that's complicated is that you really should be building in public. And an interview that I have coming up that I'm really excited to launch is Sammy Nuzdorf of Meadow Lane. And he's, if you haven't heard of him, he's a fantastic case study. He basically for three years documented every day the building of his gourmet grocery store in Tribeca. And he did content on like, you know, the like what grout to choose for the tiles and like, talking about like permit delays and like asking like, he basically built an entire audience that like helped him pick the logos and the right color schemes and like the right bags. And what people miss is that they think that people care. And they think that like, if you do this, you're launching this gorgeous clinic and you just like you don't talk about it until it's finally launched. And it's like opening day. And it's so it's such a wrong way of thinking about it. Because unless you have a ton of money to like pump PR and bring like influencers in, truthfully, like nobody cares. And that's why this idea of like, it's not about having the brand and focusing on later, like you have to see things as like brand is not a destination, like it's a journey. It's been that you have to continue to keep building and keep taught. And it's so it's not like start building it once you have it. But then also on the flip side of that is, if you have a clinic, you've been thinking about doing your personal brand, like you have a brand, but you haven't leaned into it. It's also not too late. And that's where there's no like binariness to this. It's not yes or no, it's like, you just have to start because the downside is like, it's like investing, it's like planting a tree, like you're not going to see the fruits of the labor, your labor, like next week, like it takes time. And that's like, I've been creating content, I post every single day one to three times per day, usually twice per day, for the last five years. And like, when you say like, you connect with me and you like me, it's not because of one post, it's the consistency of how that's compounded. And like, that's the thing that scares people is that when you're busy, when you're an adult, one as adults, when was the last time you did something that made you vulnerable in public? Probably not since you were a child, like we're not constantly doing that. That's one. And then two, when you're an adult, there's always things that are a better use of your time today than getting that video that's going to take you two and a half hours, getting it edited, posting it, and then for it to get four likes, and it'd be your mother and to, you know, your two employees, like, and you don't feel like there's a payoff in doing it. And even if you do it for a month, that payoff still might not be there. It's like, you need to be like, the mindset you need to go in is like, you're learning to walk, you're starting to crawl, but you can't run until you go through those three other phases. So like, buckle up and like have a different mindset that now you need to be in the process of doing it. And I think a deeper question is like, it doesn't have to be video. I think it's just finding your format, you know, Substack has really blown up, it's done fantastic. There's YouTube where you can go into longer form. There's LinkedIn that's like, completely untapped for kind of a B2B, like, white color. LinkedIn is like a gold mine. I always wonder about LinkedIn. Yeah. And you can write on like, you don't have to do floating head videos, you know, like, find your medium and lean into it. And also to like, keep making yourself uncomfortable, you know, to be a bit vulnerable, like talking to the camera became easy. Then what was hard was like me sitting down and writing every day. But like, that made my content better because it becomes easy to just do something. And now my uncomfortable is like, I want to try to go live every day. And I say this, and I didn't go live once this week. So like, that's the thing that I'm like, pushing myself to do because you start to get into these spaces of comfort. And that's when you need to keep evolving because the algorithm keeps evolving. So you're not going to reach a destination. You're in a new journey. Absolutely. I love that. I love that. I love the breakdown. Thank you so much for going into that detail because, you know, these are real, real questions that I see like there are, I mean, the bigger brands, I feel like can kind of outsource this, right? So they can hire experts such as you, they can hire the people that they understand, that understand, you know, like the real like, what is the formula to this, you know, and I know there's not one formula, but you know, you understand, like you can approach it. But like, the smaller brands are what really kind of worry me. I've noticed recently, like, I don't know if you've been following like the beauty space like that, but a lot of them have been closing down recently, you know, and a lot of times like what I'm hearing from these founders through their interviews or whatever they're putting on social media is like, I didn't know that it was going to cost me this much to run my brand, you know, like they got funding, they got everything. Well, the Sephora brands. Yeah. Like the Sephora, like it's crazy. And like, I feel like it's like you, you feel in beauty once you get into Sephora, once you get into Alta. You made it. It's the made it. Right. And you got it. But it's hardly the case. Yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, what are your thoughts on that? On that is like this, this, I don't know. It's like, almost like we've created a pipeline, right? And it's like, we're pushing people with this like, you know, this mystery, fairy tale thing of like, get in and you're good to go. But then you get into Sephora, you're giving away what 40% of your sales, at least 70% I think is what I heard last time, you know, it depends on the split. I mean, like, here's the rub. Sephora is a business. They've been around for a long time, 30 something years plus, like it's they're, they're not a new business. They're an LVMH owned business. So they're a business for profit. They have some of the best distribution in the market period. And they're in the business to make money. And I think people, people kind of forget that it's like, there's an egoicness to getting into Sephora, because like, you kind of made it. But that's like, it's like anything else. It's like, when you get to Hollywood, you know, and like, you might get up, like, you might get an audition. But like, it doesn't mean you got the part. It doesn't mean that you're, you know, you're a Timothy Chamolet, like, uh, Chalamet. And I like, I'm Canadian, so I should, I should have the French. But so to kind of give it like a little bit of those core dirty details. So yeah, Sephora has a pretty aggressive split. And then they have a lot of really secretive things that often tank businesses. So the rough numbers are, it's like, you have to be doing 8 million in wholesale, 15 million in direct to consumer sales to start making money, like anything below that, you're still losing money. And the reason being is like, there's inventory costs, a huge cost that really hurts brands is the sampling, because they have to do pay millions of dollars, like for the samples. And then on top of that, like, you have to pay for the hype machine, like you have to have people talking about your product online, you have to be doing like aggressive seeding, you have to be doing PR events. So there's a, there's a huge, um, cogs cost to getting you into, into a store, because you have to maintain demand that's competitive with like a summer Fridays with like a jazoo. But the upside though is like, I think it's really easy to shit on Sephora. I think that what, because there, there is an easiness to signing it with a mega retailer and to get like access to distribution. But on another hand, like TikTok shop did 400 million in fragrant sales last year, they did 585 million in cosmetic products. Like the funnel is collapsed. And the brands that are succeeding in Sephora are private equity backed because like they can have the funding to ride the margins to make the money. Like they understand that algorithm of like what they need to make, to make, to make it in that kind of environment. But like you truthfully, like it's never been a better time to win on a different playing field. And so it's like, it's easy to shit on them. But I also think like they also have it tough too, because truthfully, like it's a lot of money to have retail space. And it's a lot of money to keep the beast going and to fund all that they're doing. So I think if, where I would be critical on Sephora is that it's gone to the kids. Like I think you're really going to see in the next three to five years, a massive decline where they're going to have to fix themselves because more and more adults that I talk to are like, God, no, I'll never go back in there because like the shelves are just like pillaged and you go on a sale. All the kids. Yeah. It's like, no, thank you. And there's actually like a brand concept I'm working on of like when the brands go to the kids, they're like not cool anymore. So like Starbucks, Aloe, you know, Sephora. But I think that people see beauty as an easy way to make money. And like there was a window for that. And like the market is now frothy. It's like when you see the cranes in the air, like it may not be the best time to buy. So I guess my point is, is like, I think that people get into it for the wrong reasons too. Like they're just looking at it for getting that $500 million or billion dollar exit. So like you have to have a good strategy and you have to have the right reason. Yeah. That's, I mean, it's interesting to me because beauty, like you just said, like for me, I've watched it become so saturated over the last five years. It's almost insane. Like just like on the outside looking in, like I'm just like, how the hell did we go from like this exclusive industry almost that it felt like, right? Because there was like these like strict distinctions, luxury, and then there's like affordable and then there's drugstore. Now it's like everything's meshing into one. Everybody's trying to give you the luxury experience everybody wants you to feel exclusive when you buy their products. It's that's where I, I really, really get lost because it's like the brand messaging isn't clear. You know, yeah, like a brand can come out with a super like relatable product and then tomorrow they'll come out with their luxury version of that product. And it's like, what are we doing? You know, like, why aren't we sticking? I mean, do you think it's smart to stick to one lane or do you think it's smart to kind of develop these different lanes for different types of consumers and in one brand? You should have a clear point of difference and a unique selling proposition. And then once you see success in market, you also do have to build upon it because it's easy to get second and third sale from the same consumer than it is to get the first sale. So once you have an audience keeping them engaged, that's why like this past week I talked about like why it was so smart that summer Fridays got into fragrance, you know, like when you think about where the brand has gone in terms of world building and like for all these 11 to 15 year olds that love the brand, like it's kind of weird to buy a 15 year old, you know, like face serum for their birthday. It's, you know, it's way more normal to buy them fragrance. And you know, for someone that's getting into it or like that likes the brand but might be more price sensitive, you hold fragrance at like a higher tier than you do like another eye cream, you know, so it's, it's a really a great way to increase average order value into world build. But what I would say though is I think probably more to what you're getting to is like, you know, how, how to stand out and the how to stand out either you need, you have to have time or money or you need to be prepared to like not take yourself so too seriously and build in public. And I think that's a thing for as we get, you know, we have people paying us to do these discovery, we call them diagnostic kind of consults or we really look at your brand and give you a strategy on the way forward. And I would say like a lot of people come to us and they're like, we don't really have money, but and we also also don't really want to like talk about building in public online because we think that, you know, we're too good for it. We have all these designations after our name or like, you know, it's a luxury brand. Why would I talk about like how many times I had to formulate it and like, well, you don't get it. Like if you don't have money, it's so competitive. Like I can't have you break through because there's 48 million pieces of content that are posted every day. And when you go online, like you're served the best of that for you based on your algorithm, I think it's really about figuring out how to make yourself stand out in a gorilla way if you don't have resources to compete. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I think that's also like that was always at the heart of my misunderstanding, I would say, around marketing was this idea of like, I don't know, I just, I guess it was in a bubble, you know, and I thought that every brand had like $50 million, you know, ready to go and to like spend on all the right things. But then you realize like, no, there's a lot of people bootstrapping this stuff, you know, and like they've got very, very good funds. More than you think. Yeah. And I think that's also really frustrating for some people too, especially when they're like a medical professional that has great science, they're like, the product is way better than, you know, Dr. Jart, you know, baby bear sleeping mask. Yeah. Why doesn't this sell on its own? And it's like, you know, product matters. But product, good product is also table stakes, you know, and if you're educating on new science, like you have to make the customer care and the customer doesn't care until you make them care until you find these hooky ways to bring them in, like to educate online and to make it stick is no small task, you know, if there's a term called the marketing rule of seven, and it's the idea of someone needs at least seven touch points to form an association between your product, what it represents in the industry that you're in, to add new science on top of that, you're looking at nine to 15 touch points. And that's like touch points that they're like, actually aware of, right? And what do you mean? I'm going to interrupt you. Like, what do you mean about touch points? I want you to elaborate on this so that everyone listening can understand and follow. So whether it's like, it's why influencer gifting is such a big strategy for brands is that it's not so and it's like where a lot of business owners get it wrong is it's not necessarily a direct ROI of me like wearing a van cleef bracelet of like, are you going to buy it? But if you see enough people wearing it, then it becomes more top of mind, like, you know that it's a Cartier bracelet or you know that it's like a Cartier and it's like at some point along those seven touch points, whether you're aware of them or not aware of them, that association forms. And like, that's really what you're trying to create. So it's why seeding for influencer gifting or things like out of house marketing like McDonald's and Coca Cola, there's a really interesting book called How Brands Grow. And what they talk about in the book is that Coca Cola and McDonald's pay to spate to stay top of mind because the actual top Coca Cola consumer like for their ads is someone that buys once or twice per year. Like they're not actually advertising for someone you might go to McDonald's once per month. They're trying to advertise for the person that might not think of the product on a day to day basis so that when that opportunity comes of they're going to go eat out or they're at McDonald's, they pick Coca Cola over Sprite or 7Up. Like that's the entire goal is like to just stay top of mind. So when you see a lot of McDonald's billboards, like they're not really doing anything other than associating McDonald's and photo of burger so that your brain is just keeping that kind of like it's now past the rule of seven, but what that rule of seven represents. Yeah, that's really fascinating. I never thought about that where it's like almost like a business card that you're always putting out in the world. Exactly. Exactly. And that's why when I do content, like that's all my content is doing is like because I started in professional service providers, I understood astutely, especially in real estate because I work with a lot of realtors. And it's different for every industry. That's why you have to know your own funnel. And I talk about your marketing funnel in the planner that I'm going to launch in April. It's a physical planner. The first of its kind, there's no planner that exists that does plans your brand and your content pillars. So I was like, I must change this. But the point is like when I would look at realtors, think about the window in which someone decides to buy or sell their house and they reach out to a real estate agent, like how small that window is. And the problem is when you're in real estate, everybody knows like 25 realtors. And the thing about real estate is like they always make you guilty for not using them. So the problem in real estate is that if you only wait for that window of when someone is, you're probably going to lose to someone with greater resources. Whereas the best way to win is to start to engage and connect with people in a real estate context way before they need, they're making that decision so that you're already top of mind when they decide to. And which is very different than like a criminal lawyer, because like when you get pulled over on the side of the road and it's DUI, like that decision making framework is so small. So it's why you have to connect with them way more in advance, or you have to have great SEO and strong AdWords because if they're Googling and they're not connected with you, but the person that has that window is going to win. That's why we create content every single day and we do the podcast because I don't care if you're ready to rebrand right now, I just want you to engage and connect with the content so that if you're ready to rebrand in seven months from now, you already think of me because you've been engaging with my content for seven months. Yeah, makes sense. I mean, I thought of you. I was literally like, when I reached out to you, I wanted to interview you, but I was like, she would be like the ideal person if I had a brand, like I would. No, but that's the point. Yeah. That's the point, right? And that's why you have to, like so wherever you are, if you're selling a beauty product or if you're in the beauty aesthetics or space, and that's where you really have to think in terms of value. Don't think of bottom of the funnel, like there's a place for each of it, like talking about the new Zerf lasers, like what is Zerf laser? Who is it best for? Like what, like that's bottom of the funnel, shit. Like top of the funnel is like, what is a news headline? Like what is something that is like relevant to the largest number of people. So, and that's how we stack our content. Like when we do have a piece on like, what could Gucci do better with Demna's new collection? You don't have to be in branding or marketing to have an opinion on that or like us talking about Meghan Markle's brand, like everyone in their mother can have an opinion on that. But then when you get more bottom of the funnel of like the swipe through I did yesterday was like Alta just joined with TikTok shop and like they've entered a $600 million or $800 million market economy. Like what is it? That's more niche. That's not for everyone in their mother. You know, that's for people that are in beauty and business. So like that's not going to perform as well. So you need to like know these things. And like that's really what I break down in the in the course, because it's so simple when you hear it, but no one's talked to you this way about socials. Yeah, that's the whole thing. That's the whole, that's why when I see content such as yours, somebody who knows nothing about branding, I'm like locked in because like these are things you don't hear about, you know what I mean? You see the final product, which you don't understand the psychology of it. And there's how you got them there, how you got there. And also like, like that's the that's the brilliance, right? Of the business. When I first started this podcast, I'll tell you like like little story, but like when I first started like no joke, like I only wanted to interview like executives in the space because I was like so freaking confused. I was like, how do you guys take a brand and like build it into what it is? You know what I mean? That whole journey that happens on the backside of everything. And it's like, it's it's completely different than what we see out here. And so, you know, speaking of that, you brought up the TikTok and the Ulta partnership. What are your thoughts on that? I'm curious. Like what do you think of that? I think it's brilliant. I think it's brilliant. It's, I mean, they have the infrastructure. I think the problem is like all these brands, I'm gonna swear their heads are so far up their ass. Like they all these these mid tier brands are like TikTok shop is too janky. It's too young. It's too cheap. I love TikTok shop. What the heck? It's amazing. But you'd be shocked and everyone is waiting for somebody else be the proof of concept. And I'm sitting here and I'm like, y'all are stupid. Yeah. Because I'm like about time. And the thing that's smart is the TikTok shop pieces, you're not really brand building. It is really where like Chashkees like they excel, you know, it really is like those late night impulse purchases. It's gonna change, you know, like the, you know, it's a new medium and like all mediums they mature. But the reason why it's intelligent is like when you look at Ulta's got the infrastructure, they have a crazy amount of doors. They have a great Omni channel experience. They have 44 million users that are in their rewards program and their products like MetaCube did 90 mil on TikTok shop last year. Tarte did 80 mil on TikTok last year. And like they're just not a part of that conversation. And like even if they get a one off purchase, the likelihood of someone stopping into an Ulta are going and doing that. We keep purchase and Ulta is much, much higher. Yeah. But you're like, this is money penny. She's entered the show. But my point is like, it you need to have a larger funnel. And I'm but also as an aside to that if you do have something that's more in the Chashke category, like a lip peptide or like, you know, you got a cheaper like SPF Glossier embla. That really is made for TikTok shop. I would be putting everything and anything on it and like really testing it because the floodgates are about to open when I did a post on skimsmas. It got 28 million views across the two and a half posts I did. So like brands are ready. They're really just waiting for somebody to do the first move. So stop waiting and get ahead of it. Yeah. No, that's brilliant. And I'm glad you said that because I feel like there is a hesitation. I've definitely noticed that, you know, like even just watching the brands move the way they do, like I'm like, why aren't some of you available on freaking TikTok shop? Like you're going to make so much more money. Like I it's not even about the late night purchases. I feel like the accessibility that it brings to like just the average consumer is huge. And like we are ignoring that. Like we've been ignoring that, you know, like when I first started on TikTok, I won't lie. I wanted to TikTok for the longest time. I just did. You know, I was scared of it. Because you thought it was for the kids. It was for your seat. Yeah, I was like, it's a bunch of, you know, 15 year olds and I don't know. But like when I got on there and I saw what you can do just as a consumer, as a person browsing the freaking app, I was like, Oh my God, this is amazing. And then you have brand of addiction. Oh yeah. Naturium is on there and everybody buys Naturium from TikTok shop. Like they're crushing on TikTok. They're crushing it. And like Cyclara and like, you know, the entire like the center, like any brand, the center represents like they're all crushing it on TikTok. So it really is something that that the only thing that sucks is like I am Canadian. So the thing that is frustrating is like for a lot of Canadian business owners, they can't access it. So it really is only like an American service within the app. But like if you're in America, lean in because it is so powerful. Absolutely. Absolutely. No, I want to actually shift gears a little bit because I want to ask you about a little bit of career advice, because I think there's a lot of people that are coming into they want to come into branding or they're here already and you know, maybe hitting a wall, you're right. Because like sometimes I think it can be difficult to translate what a brand envisions and then what an expert is envisioning for that brand. So like what are your, I don't know, maybe you can give us like a case study or just look at some examples of how people that are in the professional space in this field need to reposition their mindset depending on what project they're on, you know, in terms of like, how should you approach things from the get go so that you're priming yourself to be an actual asset for the company rather than just going in circles and hitting a wall and then, you know, whatever, like exiting without really getting anything accomplished. Well, it like you mean more from like an employee personal brand Well, employee, but also like, okay, so say I had a brand, I hired person X, right, like take over my branding, take over my strategy for marketing, all of that. And then that person couldn't understand what I need, you know, and like, I get frustrated as a founder, they get frustrated with me maybe, because maybe I'm not giving them like, where do you think that balance is of like making professionals understand what the brand needs? The complicated, there's, there's two pieces to this that makes it complicated. On one hand, there is no barrier to entry from a marketing standpoint. So the thing that is frustrating and difficult is like, there is a lot of junk out there for people who are coming in to manage, you know, your socials and manage your brand. So you do have to be informed and educated for knowing, you know, what are content pillars? What are your brand strategies? What are the pieces of content that work the best, you know, for your brand? So you need to be informed one, because I think that a lot of people, they see it as a box to check and it's something that they can outsource like their taxes and you are your brand when you're a founder and you're involved. So, and it's only ever going to be better when you're involved. Like I write every single one of my own sub stacks, I write every single one of my own swipe throughs that we prep every week personally for the podcast. Like that's why our content is great. Like we are at the heart of our content. We have teams that edit and post and stuff, but we are like in the heart of our content. On another hand, when with what you're asking, it's about also ensuring that I really actually think that's what it comes down to. Like I think when I see them out, the best winning teams is like you interview the agencies or the talents better when you're more involved. When like I just find the founders that I love working with have an idea, they're doing their own research, they have their finger on the pulse because like they want to win like they're in the game. So, I think that if you go through that mindset shift and like you do something like my master class or the planner or you just consume a ton of content from myself or like the brand blueprint or Orin Meets World or Ashwin, like if you just are really fixated on like spending three to five hours a week on studying that, you will have a disproportionate change in output because on one hand you will get more from the team you work with because nobody's going to care more about your brand than you do, but you also change the way in which I talk a lot about like that Olympic difference. So, if your team brings you an idea and you're in the game and you tweak the concept even by five or 10%, like that can be the difference that takes it to 100,000 views and like people don't think in terms of those tiny tweaks. So, it's like having a doctor's assistant but being the doctor, you know, like you still need that doctor there to guide and to make those changes. So, I hope that you go through a mindset shift because if you do and you do that, anyone you hire or anywhere that your brand goes with a team is just going to be better. That makes sense. No, I think that's the thing that I don't know. I always wonder because it's like once you hire on like a full team as a brand, like you've hit that point where you're like, I can afford people that are like true professionals in like certain areas like marketing, communications, whatever, social media, I feel like I can hand it off to them and they're going to make magic happen for me. And like I've heard a lot of PR pros say this too, where they're like, PR isn't magic. You're not going to hire me one day and then next day, all of a sudden, your brand is in every major outlet and everybody's buzzing about you. Like it doesn't work like that and that's why I asked you is like this. I feel like there's like a expectation that needs to be set on the founder end where it's like, okay, you still have to be involved. You can hire an expert and you can get their insight and they'll help you, but then like you can't just exit the scene and just say they'll figure it out, that kind of thing. So that's why I was like very curious about that. Yeah, it makes total sense. So I mean, in terms of like, I know you've talked a lot about like brands, you've talked a lot about like certain brands, like case studies that you've discussed on your platform. What are some of the most standout ones for you in terms of either success or failure, whatever that really stood out that you can share? And let's be my last one because I got an 11. So it's tough because like my favorite brand is Gentle Monster. And the reason why I love Gentle Monster the most is like they understand investing in their brand is a lagging indicator for success. It's not just about ROI or KPI. So that one is my favorite for really leaning into like making a difference in impact. That's not the easiest for people to learn from, but it's definitely a great place and like focus on the brand and the rest will come. Like you don't have to understand how to spend smart, but they're a fantastic case study on world building. Another brand that I love is Charvet. It's a Parisian. I did a video on it today. So if you go back on my page and you can see there's like a split screen on it, but it's a 200 year old like you know, Tilly A shirt maker out of Paris. And they don't do anything crazy, but they just focus on offering a really great product. And I think there's an art in that also missing. So to that point, there's also something in like just doing stuff that's great. You know, another brand that's fantastic is Meadow Lane. And like I talked about on this episode already, like Sammy Newsdorf Building in Public. I mean, he's such a great example of it can be a luxury brand and you can still be raw and be real and people will come. And I think that's another thing too is people get so in their head of like, no, you know, this is a fancy brand. This is a premium brand. I can't talk about, you know, delays and they're being problems. And I'm like, be real. Like that's what people want online is to connect with. So I would say the three of those give you enough for how I think about brand. And that's why our podcast is called the art of the brand, right? It's understanding, you know, where is that space between science and repeatable logic? And then where is there an art form in which that it's not as easy as it to just only be repeatable? It's kind of that alchemy of how it fits between those two. And that's how I'd answer that. I love that. Well, thank you so much. This has been amazing and you're amazing. And I'm going to continue binge watching your content because it's so, so fascinating. And I can't thank you enough for this interview. I know all of our listeners are really going to appreciate these insights. So thank you so much. It's been wonderful. I've been so happy to be here. So thank you so much for having me.