Stop Letting Emotions Make Decisions with Emma Grede

Before we get into it, quick note, I just launched a premium version of the podcast on Supercast. If you want ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs where I answer your questions directly, it's all there. If you'd like to support the show and get access to all of that, I want you to go to jefferson.supercast.com, or you can check the link in the description below to join. All right, let's get into it. Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher podcast. Today, my guest is my friend, Emma Greed. She is the founding partner of Skims, as well as the co-founder and CEO of Good American, and has a roster of businesses and foundation boards and shows that she is a part of. This woman is incredible. Today's episode started with me confessing something big to Emma, and that is the first time I met her at her podcast, Aspire, which is in the Skims office there in LA. I was actually intimidated before I even met her. All of her teams showed up, and let me tell you what, she has a very firm control over what exactly she's doing at business, and so this was my very first interaction with her, so we get to have fun with that. Also, she has a book coming out called Start With Yourself, a new vision for work and life, which is out today. The link's down there in the show notes. We also took a deep dive on being direct. What does it mean? How to do it without apology and with confidence. We talk family, we talk career, we talk business, and we also talked about that other B word, balance, if there even is such a thing. I hope you enjoy. I have to tell you, when I was on your podcast, was that a few months ago? Almost a year ago. It was, what was it? It was almost, you were literally like the first, one of the first interviews I ever did, and I was like, I cannot believe I'm speaking to Jefferson as like day two. No, it was true. It was true. Well, I get up there and I, I don't wear skims. I don't wear, I don't, you know, the jeans. So I get up there and this is, I think it was, it might have been at skims, like one of the places, obviously I need to update on the brand names. I was going to say, clearly, clearly you need to, well, you need to update the underwear closet. That's what I was thinking of. Yeah, yeah, I need to, I need to upgrade my shapewear. I'm not, why don't wear skims? I don't understand. Hey, new collab. Okay, so anyway, I get up there, get off the elevator, and everybody was just buzzing. All right. And it felt like the movie devil wears Prada, which I've only seen once, but it was like, I was thinking, I was like, okay, who is this woman who's coming? I was like, I was like, I know, I was like, oh my gosh, should I be worried of like, because everybody in your office was like, had it down to a T, look serious, and was moving and going and eight different things are happening at once. And all I know, it was like, she's almost here in my, and I was like, what is happening? I remember, I remember being, yeah, I remember being at the little podcast, like beautiful little waiting room, and they're like, she's, Miss Greed's about to be here with you. And I was like, oh my, okay, everybody was like, you better be ready. And you come in, okay. And you were the most like, charming, laughing, just spurting out just the most casual, easy going. That being said, also the one that I could tell, oh, if she wanted to, she could crank the temperature on everybody even more. Like I knew in the background, I was like, she's, she's one of the most charming people I've ever met. But I know deep down, this is not somebody that you, you mess around with. So I can say, I'm living proof. You've got me in one. Yeah, yeah, I'm living proof that the stuff, the book that you have, start with yourself works. So it's so, it's so true. My podcast is in a cupboard in my office. And it's the only way it would work for me, right? Like it has to be right there. And when I interviewed you, it was right in the, like the super, super early days. I'd interviewed Jay Shetty and then you. And I was like, oh my God, like this is so crazy. But again, of course, because of who you are, Cardi B, Cardi B. Yeah, me and Cardi B is a very easy, a very natural snitch. Same thing. So just lovely people with the, with the, with the voice that just puts you at ease. It's because we can, oh, it's the same thing. Exactly, you go sing. Same, same. I'll tell Cardi. Yeah, please. Your book, all right, start with yourself. At first I thought, you know, I got it. And I said, okay, this is, is this, is it almost wrong to have that mentality? And I think it's that contrast, Emma, that made me go, okay, I'm going to keep reading and understanding that no, it's, it's about making sure that you can't control everybody else, but you can control yourself. And when you say, before I blame this, before I blame that, before I start trying to fix everybody else, how about you start fixing yourself? And so once I had that type of perspective switch, I said, okay, this is, this is really great. And we're going to keep talking about the book throughout the episode. But you have just such a depth of experience that I don't think as many people appreciate, just the level of things that you have to, you get to not have to, you get to manage and be responsible for and balance and, and juggles. And I know a lot of people ask you questions about what you do. The first question I want to ask Emma is what you don't do. So what are some things that you find, and maybe in meeting with somebody, what do you think is, and let's put it in the business context first, what's a red flag that you see that others might miss in business relationships? Oh, you know, first of all, I'm gonna, first of all, I'm so happy to speak to you today. And I'm so happy that I get to speak to you in this, in this context around the book. You know, I, there are so many red flags, but a big one for me is when it starts on, what do you do? You know, like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, hello, who are you? How are you? Like, what do you know? To me, that's always a red flag. And you know, I think that in business, you can understand so much about a person from that initial introduction. Like, you know, when someone sees you, you know, when someone sees past you, and I'm a real people person, like, I will not remember your name, but I will remember how your grandfather came into the country. But that's also because I bothered to ask you that question. And so to me, I like to figure out in business or otherwise that the essence of a person, like, who are you? Like, how do you come here in this room? And so when somebody starts like trying to figure out like, what's in it for them? No, how can I help them? That's like a red flag to me. I'm like, you're already out. It's already over for me and you. When it starts really superficial. When it starts really superficial, I can see that. I think that's something that the older you get that changes, right? Like, I am, you know, I'm 40. I keep telling everyone I'm 42. I'm 43. My husband had to come and stop me the other days. I've heard you say it three times today. You're 43. So I'm 43 now. And I think that part of even this journey of that I've just been on writing this book for the last couple of years, like, you get close to yourself, you start to understand so much about who it is that you are. And so I'm just very interested in understanding other people and what makes them uniquely who they are. And you said in your book, and I've seen some other interviews, because I listened to you too, Emma, it's not just one way. It's not one way. Thanks. It's not just one way. It's a two-way road. Of understanding also the value, or at least not being afraid, to try and mask the fact that some things are transactional, where you don't have to, because it's almost worse when somebody starts with the gloss, the fake, when you know they're going to be asking for something. What you're saying is just own that. I would rather you own that than try and be genuine. So do you see that as a something that you go, I can already tell that they're wanting something from me. And it's, how does that process for you? Yeah, I don't want to shy away from that, because there's a woman in business. I think they're often, we're kind of trained to kind of like have this almost like performative politeness, soft ambition idea that we're not trying to get something. I'm like, we're here to make money. That's the purpose of business. That's okay in that context. And so I don't like to, I'm a very straightforward person with a very high moral baseline. You know exactly what I want, because I told you, not because I'm trying to hide behind something and then like sneak it around the back. I think that that intentionality of being forthright, being open, saying what you need, what your expectations are, it actually takes all of the crap out of business. And so I wrote this book, you know, by the way, I wanted people to use, not just to buy and to read. I was like, how do you create something that is useful? And it's about self-leadership. It's about this idea that we can't control what's happening in the world. We can't control what other people are going to do. But we can control the way we come into a space, the way we behave, the energy we put in, right? And so I think that that is really important. And that's important in business and it's important in life more generally. I get such a treasure talking to you. Now, this is the second time we've had the chance to meet. And of course, we've communicated since. But what a treasure is for me is I get to talk to somebody who has such a roster of experience and a depth of success in running businesses and somebody who is a woman and a woman of color and to say, okay, I know that when somebody asks me a white male say, how do you say things direct? All right. And I know my perspective is just one. And I will get comments, which are very well received of that wouldn't work for me. That doesn't work in the, in I'm a woman, that's not going to work for me. You don't understand what that's like. And the answer is I do not know what that's like. That's correct. And so here I have, to me, an expert that I couldn't think of who's any more positioned for this kind of advice. So in your world as a business woman, how do you speak with directness? Just like a white guy. No, let's not do that, please. Here's the thing, you know, it's really funny because I feel like, I mean, to be honest, so many of my teachers have been white men, right? I'm married to a white man. A lot of my investors are white men. And in so many ways, you know, early, I modeled the behavior that I saw all around me. I think I'm a really straight shooter. And I think a lot of that was informed from where I was born. I was born in East London, which is like the hood, you know, and so this idea of having a high moral baseline, I didn't realize, I thought that was my personality. I didn't realize that came from where I was from, that you tell the truth, you know, you're true to your word. If you say you're going to do something that you do it. And I carried all of those traits into business. And I think that so much of business is about how you behave and not what you say. It's like, how do you follow up? How do you leave people feeling? How do you, you know, kind of behave in any given transaction? It's never about like one individual moment. And so I think that what I've built in my reputation over the years is the ability and the freedom to be really forthright, because people know who I am. They know that I'm going to come good on my word. They know that I am going to do exactly what I say and that I'm not full of it. And so I really have kind of spent my career not so much watching what I say, but watching what I do. And that has really, really served me well. And what's so interesting, you know, now that I'm on this kind of book tour, you know, I've met three journalists that used to work for me, three. No way. And thankfully, thankfully, they're writing really nice things about me, because, you know, it's like how you treat people and how you leave people feeling. Like that has the biggest impact than any kind of single thing that you can say. And so I think that I am, I don't know, I try to be very just who I am and I make no apologies for it. I think everybody always knew that I was very ambitious. And I have been, I think, working away for the last 25 years to make that a more attractive term for women, because it isn't used in the same way for women as it's used for men. And I'd kind of like to change that a little bit. I think you are. I definitely think you are. She's ambitious in like a... That is such a quote. Have you, did you come up with that? The, I don't watch what I say, I watch what I do. Like that is... No, I didn't, but I'm taking it. Did you just come up with that right now? I just came up with that now. Okay. Okay, Emma, that is such a killer line. Like you need your social team. All right, listen to me. I know they're listening right now. I'm going to tell them. Guys, Jefferson said... They need to put this in a quote. I don't watch what I say. I watch what I do. Like that is t-shirt mug worthy. You need to develop it. We're doing it. We're doing it because you said so. Yeah. No, okay. I think that's a great point of ambition seems to be, have certain connotations with it when it comes to men. Ambition seems to be almost a negative trait when it comes to women. And I hear you saying, I want to change that. And I think you're a living example of that. When I hear you say, okay, to be very direct with somebody has a lot more of not just what I say, it's what they can see me do and see me follow up on. I want to know, this is me, peace. This is where I'm living this. I get to kind of tease out how Emma thinks about things. So when you're saying, okay, you're walking into the office, you have a room full, you know, it's crazy, your schedule's packed. When you are about to enter into, okay, I have that breath of moment, I just got out of the car and about to go into the room. Where is your mind in that place? Is it how do you balance the performative of I have to look the part and balance the personal of embodying the part? That is such a good question because all of us, we come with so much baggage, right? And when you're a mum of four, like my mornings are so intense, you know, by by 8am, I have trained, I've probably done one kid's hair, I've had half a breakfast, I've got, you know, like, so much going on around me. And I get in the car, I'm on a call and I walk in the office and it's like, you know, the first, the first like meeting, I think the thing that I've really learned to do is to bring myself like into any situation, like I'm not a multitasker, like I do the thing that's in front of me, and I give it everything, like I am big on eye contact. If you pick up your phone in the middle of a meeting with me, like, it's over. It's just over. I need like, undivided attention. But in return, I give undivided attention. I'm a real like in the room person. And that is, by the way, a superpower in business, because when you give undivided attention to matters, they get solved quickly, like I'm not going to have 27 emails, like don't like everybody knows, soon as an email's past two paragraphs, I'm like, I'm dyslexic, I'm not reading that. So it's like, I want the speed, I want the connection, and I want the concentration of like the whole thing. But I'm really somebody who's very mindful, like I know I have a very commanding presence. And so I know that the way I walk in has an effect on everyone. Like, you know, everyone will tell you in your office, I walk in and I'm like, morning, everyone. And I'm also like, I'm a chatty cafe. So I'm like, what did you do this weekend? How was your Easter Sunday? Like, did you do an egg hunt? You know, it's like, I do that because I am, I like to be with the people and connect with everyone and understand where are we, and then we can get into it. And then we can be like really all about the business. But I am, I think it's important to just have that level of presence. And, and that is a gift when we live how we live right now. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Cozy Earth. I love having Cozy Earth as a sponsor, because I love wearing their stuff long before they were ever part of the show. The thing I like most about Cozy Earth is just how soft everything they have is. I'm a big sweatshirt guy. I'm a big hoodie guy. I like that balance of we can wear like a hoodie and then some shorts. I'm one of those crazy weird people. I love Cozy Earth for that exact reason. So anytime I can gift something to a friend, it's usually some kind of hoodie or sweatshirt, because I want them to feel just as cozy as I do. 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But what they do need is that all of you, you know, you can't be like half having an email, half having a conversation. And because my time is really finite with them, you know, I don't take my phone out of my bag when I come home from work, because that couple of hours, that dinnertime, bedtime, storytime, that needs to be like, unencumbered with whatever might be going on in my day, which is usually like a disaster. I only get the problems now, you know, my whole day is a series of problems. So I do really think that that is, it's a gift that you give yourself, it's a gift that you give the people around you, but it's probably like, it's just so important. And it's an underrated thing to just be like single-minded and thoughtful and like in the moment. But it is a superpower. If we could pull your team, because I know you have a lot of people in the eye of your hurricane that is Emma, if we were to pull some of them. How many are you pulling? Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds? The immediate stuff. Yeah, let's say you're top 20. Let's say you're top 20. What would they say in terms of communication that you excel at and some things that, yeah, you could do a little bit better? I mean, that they would say, I am clear. Like nobody is ever wondering, what's Emma thinking? It's like, I already told you, like we're not waiting for an assessment. I already told you. And I think that that is really important. Like I'm in constant communication. And when you run businesses, having clarity about the goals, and I think that this has to go beyond the top 20, it's like, I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people and they all need to be going towards a common goal. And so when I express something and when I have a set of priorities for any given business, I need everybody working towards those. And so having that clarity is really important. So I think that people think I'm clear. They think I'm firm. I don't really suffer falls. But I think that they would say I'm fair. I think the majority of people would say, wow, she was extremely demanding, but I learned a lot and she was really fair. On the flip side of that, I think they'd say I'm really repetitive because I repeat myself all the time. Because that's about clarity of vision, right? And I'm going to double, double, travel down. So somebody comes to me and then I don't know what thing to work on. I'm like, wait a minute, we have the dirt and the dirt and the dirt. So drop everything else and do something that works to one of those three things. So I'm definitely a repeater of ideas and a repeater just in the sense of like, I think it's really important for clarity. I like that you said I'm very firm, but I'm also very fair. I find that that's a characteristic, you know, I come from a family of teachers. You know, my mom's a teacher, my sister's a teacher. And that was one thing my mom would always say, like she was known as kind of the scary teacher at school. But she, at the end of the year, all of her students would love her because she was, they realized it was for their good. It was for their benefit, that firmness. And I think you hit on something true is that if you are not firm, you will get walked over. And how do you, like you said, you don't suffer falls? What's that mindset that you have when you're walking into the rooms that you're walking into in business to know, like, what's the secret to being firm in communication? I think the secret is, I would say that it is consistency, right? I don't think that you can be flip floppy and firm like that. That's not going to work. You have to be really super consistent. An element of fairness. So I think that you, you know, and I do think that the two things go hand in hand, because people need to understand where am I in all of this? Like, what bit is my responsibility? What part is, what part like, and when I say fairness, because, you know, again, so little in the world is fair. But when you have consistency, and when you're fair with people, you have, you know, I did every job, Jefferson. It's like, I really was a person that worked their way up. I started in a cupboard in fashion PR, I packed the boxes, I packed the samples, I wrote the notes, then I got onto a desk. Then, you know, you kind of like running around, back show at fashion shows and like laying flooring, I worked in production. It's like, I did every single thing on the way up, which gives you this unbelievable appreciation of every person's part in a job or in a production or in a right now, you know, it's like the clothing organizations. I understand the junior merchants job, because I was there. It's like, I know that stuff. And I think that when you are a firm person, coming in with a level of understanding and appreciation for what every single person brings and delivers is a really good place, because people feel seen. And oftentimes, the work isn't fair, right? It never feels that way. But if you feel that you're seen and you're appreciated, and there is an understanding about what it is that you uniquely bring, then I think that that changes everything. And I think that I get and have gotten to where I've gotten to, because people have an understanding that I wasn't given anything, that I worked for it, and I appreciate them, and I have an understanding of them. And in that way, I think people work extremely hard for me and towards the things that I need, because they feel that intrinsically. I'm going to come back to this part that we talked about, specifically on how to speak with directness, being firm, having ambition as a woman, again, because these are things that I can't express nearly as well as somebody else can. And so, you know, my question is like, when you see all these, like you've been on Shark Tank, when you've seen all these men, okay, saying, this is how to do business, this is how to do it. And you come in here going, yeah, I can do it just as well, and be able to spend five plates at the same time. What do you want to say to those men in the moment? What are they, what are we, you know, missing when it comes to, is there like an unlock to say this is a special way or is, let me ask, I'm going to, I'm talking right now, because I find the subject, I desperately desire to be able to help people, and especially women speak with more directness. And there's sometimes I feel like I miss the point. And it's because I haven't been where they've been, and I haven't stood where they stood. And that sometimes makes me feel helpless. And so, when you give advice to women, what do you tell them? What am I missing? No, well, first of all, the idea that you even think about it like that, I think is such an excellent starting point. And what I wrote about in the book, in Start With Yourself, is this idea of not allowing your emotions to do your decision making. And I think for a lot of women, that is like a default, right? We are people pleases. We have a lot of fear connected to how we might be perceived or valued. We have a lot of guilt, right? Like mum guilt is an actual real thing. And so, in this book, so much of what I talk about is how emotions will kind of dictate your decision making. And I think that what I wanted to be able to convey is this idea that oftentimes women have been socially conditioned to avoid the exact behaviors that create wealth, that create disability, that create leadership opportunities. And men don't have quite the same kind of difficulties in expressing themselves or in managing their emotions, which doesn't impede their decision making in the same way. And so, what I wanted to do was kind of create a book that really dismantled a lot of the lies that we've been sold about this stuff. This is supposed to be like a wake up call for ambitious women, because if you want power and you want money and you want a career and you want a family and you want all of those things, you're not going to get that kind of hiding behind soft ambition. We have to have audacity. We have to get okay with the fact that there's going to be some discomfort, that discomfort might be from somebody else around you. And Jefferson, what is important right now and what I want to be clear about, and men can agree with this as well as women, but I think that we are desperate for more women in positions of power right now, not just in business, but in our economies, in our governments, politically, it's really clear to me. And I think there is just a set of rules that exist in the culture that mean that women feel and they're deeply ingrained thoughts, right? Like deeply ingrained thoughts that exist. And so, what I wanted to do was be a model for what is possible, because I really believe you can't be what you don't see. And if we're constantly putting this idea of to be a good woman, there are all of these things that you have to do, that's really going to hold women back. So, what I tried to do was just have a level of honesty about what it takes and what in our own behavior can change and what in our own style of communication about the things that we really want has to change in order to kind of shift the mentality like really forward. Like that's what I really care about right now. Before we keep going, I want to talk to you about element. I know that in my busy lifestyle, there's something that has to do with hydration that I cannot seem sometimes to get a hold of, of just drinking enough water. My body will just go, coffee, you should have coffee. And my body also says, but please give me water. And so, one solution, big solution that we've had in my family is element, LMNT. Element provides electrolytes. It's like this little packet that come in different ways, but this one that I like to have is just a little salt packet that you rip out and you pour it into your water. I do about half, so it's not too salty. I like the lemonade flavor. And I love it anytime after a workout, during a workout, after a run, when I'm on the go. I like because it's just really no mess. Now, my kids, they love it. They call it salty water. They really like the seltzer version. I'm not a carbonation fan, but they are. And so, they love it every time that they get it. In fact, they treat it as almost like a dessert. So, they will have dinner and then my son will beg for salty water. And so, we let him have probably about half of it because he doesn't need to drink too much before he goes to bed, obviously. And so, that's how we love an element. It is just made for people that are on a mission, just like you and just like me. And they're offering my listeners a free sample pack with any order. You can head on over to drinklmnt.com slash Jefferson and try risk free today. That's element, smart hydration for people going places. And now, back to the episode. Now, let me tell you, Emma, you did it. Okay. All that you wanted to do with this book. All right. You did it. What I really appreciate that you do in your book, and I have it in my hands right now, is you have these old thoughts and the new thoughts, which I thought was great. It is so good. Not only do we get a baseline of where you've come from, what all you've been through, what you do with your husband and your kids and the life and the balance and everything, is really how you see things. And what you do, what I think is so well done, is you will lay out these old thoughts. And we all know what that is, these old scripts in our head of, I'm not going to be enough. I have to do this. The only way to achieve X is I have to go through Z and Y. And then you come up with these new thoughts and you have these new thoughts right after it, after you kind of give the lesson. And the new thought is what turns the old script on its head. You say, you don't have to do that. And you know what? I'm a living example of that. And so many of your lessons when it comes to career, when it comes to family, when it comes to life balance, it is a series of new scripts and new thoughts that I think are excellent. Can I share with you one of my favorite? Yeah. Tell me. Yeah. Okay. So this is one of the ones you have in career. And this is one that hit me is the old thought is your owed mentorship and opportunity. And so I thought like, okay, that's, boy, that's true in my life of times where, at least in the legal profession, yeah, you're, you're, it's a sense of your owed certain things. And there's, that can feel that way. Like people will go, oh, I'm not going to, I'm not going to chase this because nobody's doing it for me. I guess nobody wants to help me. It's just all me and I'm not going to waste the time. And in the new thought that you have after you talk about the story is you are the creator of your own career and the responsibility for it is yours too. And I thought, okay, Emma, all right, Emma, that was good. Like it was so good of like, hey, you, nobody else is going to, to do that. And I think a lot of that, and I want to go into this real quick, so is you are the oldest, I believe, of four. Yeah. Okay. And you had a single mother. Okay. And I'm curious, you know, how much of the mindset that you have, the title of the book has to do with that girl who didn't finish high school, went to work is, was the, I'm the oldest of four, right? You are. That, that, yeah, I'm the oldest of four. Yeah. I love that. This is why we're kindred souls. This is it. This is it. That's right. These old souls, right, that you didn't really have, like me, like we, we didn't really have it, you didn't really have a childhood, you know, there's gaps of your life that you had to be the, the little parent, the little spouse, you had to take on opportunity, you had to take on things you had to forgo other enjoyment for the work that was ahead. I find a lot of these principles that you teach are lessons that are straight out of your, your life and how you do things now. I think that you're completely right about that. And, you know, it's so interesting because so many people have asked me that question. Oh my God, what was it like? You know, I never for one second felt sorry for myself as a kid. Like I never imagined like that this thing was put upon me because where I come from, like, you just helped your mom. Like, what are you going to do? You know, it's like, yeah, I could make, you know, a dinner for six people when I was 12, but that's been a really useful skill. I could clean the house. I could, you know, do a parent teacher conference at 12 years old. You know, I was raised in a way where there was no other choice. And so there's a maturity level that comes with that. There's a lot of, you know, less, I guess, less forgiving and less kind of great things that come out of that. But at the end of the day, it was a net positive for me because by the time I was in the workplace, which again, was very young because I dropped out of high school, I had such a bar, like I knew how to get things done. I was such a self starter because nobody ever woke me up for, you know, school. I had to wake everybody else up and make packed lunches and iron school shirts and get three kids out of the house. Sometimes I would just go home and watch Oprah. I wouldn't even bother. But, you know, for me, it was not an imposition. It was like, I got a head start in life because this was my reality. And when I got into the workplace, I was like, wow, I am so capable. I'm so bloody capable. And so I think that when you take, you know, and I think about this with my own kids, you know, because I do have four and nobody, they have everything done for them. And somehow it kind of robs you from like, like who you're going to be, you know, and I'm like trying to, I'm not trying to manufacture hardships for my kids, but sometimes I think I should do, you know, like they would be so much more capable. But I think it's a huge part of who I am and why I have done what I did because there was no one out there coming to get me. I took full responsibility for myself. And at the end of the day, this book is about self leadership. It's about self responsibility. And there's really great stuff that is out there when you suddenly have that realization. Like there was no guy coming to rescue me. There was no boss, there was no mentor. I learned from Oprah. I learned from people in the magazines. I learned from like the bosses at my work experience. And when I say learned, like, I would just copy those people. That's what I did. Like Oprah would say something good, I would write it down, and I would copy it for years. I sat with my boss like behind me so she could see my screen. And that was the early days of online shopping. And everyone in the office was like, how annoying is it that you sit in front of this woman because you can't do your online shopping? And I was like, it's amazing. I write down everything this woman says. And when she has a good line, I use it on my new business calls. And it was like, you know, no one was coming to mentor me. And so to me, especially now that I get asked, like, could you mentor me? And I do, I look up like so many of my staff and so many women, I do a call every day on the way to the office, eight o'clock, I get on the phone, I speak to somebody for half an hour. But you can't wait for that stuff, right? You can't let it stop you. And what I wanted to make sure people understood is we have to make sure that our biggest enemy is not living in our own head. You know, like, I have this friend and I quote her in the book down from Füstenberg and she says, the most important relationship you'll ever have is the relationship you have with yourself. I know I can talk myself into or out of anything. And so when it comes to like looking for people to help me, I'm like, well, I better be helping myself first. Because if one of these magical people ever does come to help me, I want to be ready. And it just turns out that that wasn't my experience. And so it's like, I feel like I have gifted myself, myself my whole life, right? It's I was the best I had. So it's like, I just have to work with that because there was nothing else. And I feel like that's not a bad place. There's not a bad thing. No, not a bad thing at all. No, I when I read that you were the oldest of four, I was like, okay, a lot of this is making sense here. Yeah, I think anybody who's the oldest child, you can have that old school mentality of, you know, your parents didn't have to, I mean, they didn't have to ask me to do anything. You just did it. You just did it from the youngest that right that we have. So yeah, I relate to that. And what I find is so instructive to me and everyone is that if you think that opportunities should be just put on your plate, you're just that's the wrong thinking. It's the wrong thing. You have to grab your own plate and start finding places that are serving food. Like you have you have to go. And there's a sense of hunger, I think that you have to have. There's a sense of hunger. Listen, you might need to go out and kill an animal. Like, I don't know where you can't like where you came from. There might not be any shops open. They might not, you know, it's like, you got to do what you got to do. But you know, there's something amazing about doing, like making the best of yourself. You know, there's something incredible when you go, God, like, I came from here and now this is what life looks like. Like, that's incredible. It just takes such a long time. And I feel like, you know, again, I speak about this so much in the book, because I feel like social media has kind of conditioned us into this idea that, you know, you can listen your way to success, that somehow you can consume your way to success. And I'm like, no, you can't, you got to walk. You don't have any choice. You know, you got to like do something that you kind of don't like and get pretty good at it to be given an opportunity to do something that you like a little bit more. And then eventually something that you really love. But my experience is that it's always been that way. It's always been incremental. It's always been a little bit and I've got as much out of it as I've been willing to give. But there's never been a moment where someone's gone like, here you go, lucky girl, you know, here's something that you didn't work for. And you got to you got to put the work in. It's just that simple ambition has to find you working. Before we keep going, I'm going to take a moment to tell you about timeline. Now, when we talk about healthy aging, we typically like to think about diet, exercise, sleep, and those things matter. They really do. But how you feel as you get older also depends on something deeper. That's right. We're talking about your cellular energy. Every bit of energy your body has comes from your mitochondria. Remember that? The powerhouse of the cell? It's a real thing still. The tiny power plants inside of your cells. And as we age, those don't work as efficiently. So more of them become damaged, your energy drops, recovery slows down, and you just don't feel as strong or resilient as you do. That's why I started taking my to pure from timeline. It supports something called mitophagy, which is your body's natural response and process for clearing out damage mitochondria, so your cells can produce energy more efficiently. So it's like saying this, if you want more energy, your cells need more energy. And that's what timeline does. Timeline has spent over 15 years researching mitochondrial health and in human clinical studies, people saw improvements in muscle strength and energy without changing their routine. For me, it's all about staying strong, staying sharp, and feeling like myself as, yeah, I get a little bit older and keeping my hair as much as I possibly can right now. Timeline's clinically proven formula is now available at a new lower price. My superior starts now at $79 when you go to timeline.com slash Jefferson. That's timeline.com slash Jefferson to learn more. And now back to the episode. Is there a thought that has recurred in your own mind of whether it said you don't deserve this? It just right place, right time. You didn't do this on your own. You had all the help in the world. Like these, I'm curious of what kind of, what are the negative hardship thoughts that you, or if there any, you know, what are the thoughts that you have to fight against because they're always, they're always there. Yeah, you know, I'm obsessed with comedy and I've watched like every Chris Rock special like back to front, I could recite them for you. But one that he always talks about is like, at some point he gets like this house, this like beautiful dream house. And he says, his house is so good that he keeps a bag packed because he can't even imagine that like this would be his life, like that this is like his and he owns it. And I kind of like feel like that's so much I interviewed Cardi B on my podcast last week. And Cardi, like to me, I was like, I don't know that I have much in common with Cardi B. I was like, Oh, that, that, that feeling of like never wanting to be poor again, like the first word she said to me, I was like, we are the same me and Cardi B, the same person. But that is something that I think for so long haunted me this idea that what I'd worked for could be taken away or would be taken away and I would be poor again. And not even like just poor but without the ability to make my own decisions and to decide like what I do. And so that is something that I feel like I it's always going to be with me. I am always keeping the proverbial bag packed because I wake up in this beautiful room in Bel Air and I'm like, that can't that can't be my life. Like it just cannot. There's a little piece of that that I don't want to get rid of. There's a piece of that that I am like, kind of keeps me hungry. It keeps me like thinking like, what's next, what's next, don't rest on your laurels, don't get lazy. There's also a piece of that that goes, there's thousands of hundreds of thousands of millions of kids like me. And so how could you be useful and actually take what it is that you've learned and you've done and make sure that other people that sort of naturally have less opportunity could maybe have more because I know all that I can pinpoint all the moments of lift that happened. And it wasn't always because I was out manoeuvring everyone like some stuff just like, you know, the stars aligned. But I guess that that the answer to your question is that that is always in the back of my mind and it somewhat fuels me. I think that I've got out of the mentality now that it can all be gone tomorrow. But I'd be lying if I said that that wasn't always there. Like a scarcity type mindset. Like you're always, you never know when it's going to stop. So you got to keep going. Yeah. And there is a, there is, listen, I talk about scarcity a lot in the book because I never envisaged that because I have something more that you're going to get less. Right. And I think that is a very female thing. That's not how I think at all. I don't, I don't believe in that. But I do have that feeling for me. You know, I, when I met my husband, I said to him, I don't go back in lifestyle. Like this is where we are now. I'm only going one way. It's going forward. So you have to come with me or that this is not going to work. And thankfully he was up for that challenge, that romantic challenge that I gave him. But that is, that is really important to me. Like it's like, I have been very purposeful about the life that I built. And I think it's my job to keep me moving forward, to always be in motion and to never kind of rest and imagine it's done. I never, I will never feel like that. I know that in my own world, you know, I, I, we all do. And I know you talk about your book about imposter syndrome and that sometimes people, especially women can almost out talk themselves out of an opportunity. Is that something that you find often? Yeah. I mean, I see it around me often, you know, I never had, and this is hard for people to understand, I never had imposter syndrome. And it was literally down to my mom. My mom is like such a fierce lady, you know, she is like five foot nothing. She's like white and blonde. And she has these like daughters that are like, you know, black with like big curly hair. And my mom was fierce. She was like, you are going to need to learn to look after yourself. And you have to know, Emma, that you're not better than anyone else, but nor is anyone better than you. And I swear to God, Jefferson, I grew up my whole life, thinking exactly that I was like, nobody's better than me. Like literally, you could go to eat an order Harvard, but you're not better than me. And I really imagined that like I was I took it in. And so in my head, I thought if I work really hard, and if I throw everything that I've got at it, I can be as successful as anybody else. But that was my starting point. You know, my mom gave me that. And because I've done a lot of stuff, because I've had a lot of businesses that worked, but I've also had a lot of failures, which I talk about in the book, I got more confident, I got the ability to lose something, to not be good at it, to start a business to fail. And for that not to be like, there's something wrong with me. I was like, that situation didn't work out. That was the wrong set of circumstances. I made this mistake, but I never internalized it. And was like, I'm not right through it. So I've always had this kind of like distance to what it is that I'm doing. And I never thought that anything was about me. I was just like, that was that, you know? And I want to impart that on as many women as I can, because imposter syndrome is fake. It's not real. It's made up. It's in your mind. And so you have to create the conditions and change the way that you think about what is possible for you. Emma, what are thoughts that you live by that other people, even maybe listening or reading your book, might think are radical? Are there things that you live by that other people go, whoa, this is something that is definitely against the grain of what we've been told? Yeah. Oh, God. Okay, this is going to be the popular part for me in the podcast. This is where everyone falls in love with me, Jefferson. Okay, I've got it. Okay, well, I think that work life balance is a myth. And we all know that I think that anyone who's been listening to me knows that. I think it's the wrong goal. I have seen in my life, and because I believe that life and work and it all comes in seasons, there is a moment to be all in, to be pedal to the middle and to go for what it is that you want with no fuck's given, like you're just going to go in. And there is a time when, right after you have a baby, for example, when you don't have a choice to do that, you have to lean out a little bit and you have to take care of your body and take care of the baby and find a new pace for yourself. But I think that this idea that we've created in culture, that somehow there's some mythical balance that exists and until you've found it, nothing's going to work out for you. That's BS. You need to have a great career and a great business. You need proximity. You need visibility. You can't, you don't get good over a Zoom call. You need to be in the room. If you're not around me, you're not going to see how I move. You're not going to understand the pace of what we're trying to do, what the company is all about. So I think that that is something in culture right now that we've just got specifically for women. Stop looking for balance. Look for the things that you want and go after that and understand the timing of your life. I also think the timing of your life is a really important one and something I think about, this idea that women have been told, just wait and wait and wait to have a child. Like there is no perfect time, but there is a biological reality. I'm not advocating for teen pregnancy, but I'm also saying waiting until you're 39 years old probably isn't a good idea. So the idea that you've got to find this mystical partner that arrives on a white horse and solves all your problems, I'm like find someone that you love and have a baby like maybe slightly earlier than what you've been told. It won't be the end of your life. It's okay. Like it's just it's okay. And I think that what happened is that like people got so scared because modern parenting has gone bananas. Like parenting didn't get more difficult, but the expectations got difficult. And that's why in this book I talk so much about having a vision for yourself, not vision boarding, not manifestation. Like how is it that I want to live? What is important to me? What are my principles and the stuff that I care about? Because then you can measure yourself up against that as opposed to like some chick that you saw on social that like cut her kid's sandwiches into stars. Like that's not important. What's important is like what's important to you and it's different for you than it is for me. And so what I like to do is set my own standards. I don't like to be impacted by all of the noise that is like coming in and around me. I like to say this is important to me and these are my goals as a parent and these are my goals as a wife and these are my goals as a business woman. And I'm going to go after that without apology. Like that's what I think is important and tune out all the noise because you know what's insane? Like nobody's watching you. Nobody cares about you as much as you care about you. So you can pretty much like just do your thing and not be worried about it because people don't have time. They literally don't have time. Absolutely no notes. I can tell no notes off that Emma. Start with yourself a new vision for work in life. Immigrate this is so so good. I am honored to be able to support it. I want everybody to read it and I'll be sending make sure that everybody in my community knows how important this book is. Emma thank you so much for your time. Oh Jefferson thank you you're a diamond. This was so lovely. Please tell your family hi for me and until the next podcast. And the same to yours from me. Take care my love. Take care. Thank you. Bye.