#417: Depression and Weight Gain In Kids & Adults | A Long Term Post-COVID Problem & How To Reverse It With Dr. Cynthia Keller

Welcome to Longevity. I'm your host, Natalie Nidom. I'm a nutritionist, a human potential and epigenetic coach, and I created this podcast to bring you the latest ways to take control of your health and longevity. We cover it all from new technology and ancestral health practices, to personalize interventions, and a very special interest of mine, peptides and bio-regulators. Enjoy the show. Welcome back. I'm Natalie Nidom, your host. What if post-COVID symptoms like depression, anxiety, brain fog, and weight gain weren't psychosocial, but biochemical? My guess today, Dr. Cynthia Keller is seeing a pattern most clinicians seem to be missing. Specific nutrient and neurotransmitter depletion that's reshaping mood, metabolism, and recovery. In the wild part, she's able to reverse it in weeks, not months, with the right people. 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All you have to do to get yours is go to oslo sleep dot com forward slash not make sure to use code net and get 75 dollars off your Oslo sleep buds. Listen, you all know me well enough by now. I am all for aging gracefully. That's what so much of this longevity work is about. And when it comes to my skin, I don't necessarily mind the aging part. It's that I wanted to look how I feel full of life. Something about fresh dewy skin just feels more youthful. And my go to is youth daily by young goose, the only one moisturizer. And let me tell you, this isn't just any moisturizer. It's not just about looking good. It is packed with patented NAD plus nano precursors that activate your skin's anti-aging genes, smooths out wrinkles and boosts elasticity. Youth daily actually shields against environmental nasties by day and tackle signs of aging by night. I've been using this stuff for a couple of years now and it is fantastic. If you're ready to give your skin the VIP treatment to deserves, check out youth daily by young goose and let your face feel the love. All you have to do is head over to young goose dot com and you get to use code net 10 if it's your first time ordering. But if you're a repeat customer, we have something for you too. You get to use code five NAD, which will also reward you with a discount. Welcome to the show. Dr. Cynthia Keller, this is going to be nothing short of an epic conversation. Thank you for taking the time out of your very busy life to be here. It's my pleasure. Like I said, I'm super excited. This is also the craziest time of year on top of everything. Anyway, this is fantastic. So I'm going to, let's just jump in. Basically, the moment you stop believing that standard care is enough. So was there a first patient or family member that made you think I, because you're a conventionally trained physician way back in the day, but was there an event, a person, a patient, something that made you stop and say, I can't keep doing this. There's got to be a better way. I truly think that my like my superpower in medicine is probably care and presence and holding space. And that's something I did before I was a physician. I think maybe I became a physician so people would listen to me. Like I distinctly remember being younger and saying to parents, like, we're thinking to parents, like, oh, you should be loving to your children and you should care for them in this way. No one listened to me. I became a pediatrician. Everyone's like, what a great idea. So, you know, I think maybe, so I think maybe I didn't change, but I got to wear the robe of a physician where people then listen to me. But the way I sort of got into these other sort of non-traditional realms is that I would have a patient, you know, like, for instance, I treat Lyme, but I'm not a Lyme specialist. I'm a patient specialist, right? So if a patient ends up with something I can't solve, I'm going to solve it. And it started with GI. You know, that's sort of, you know, a super well trained at a children's hospital. I was like, you know, ready to code and save lives and into bait. And then I got into general peds. And I was like, wow, nobody, there's no one to save. And, you know, um, but there is, but there is, right? And, um, you know, I'd have a kid with GI pain, let's say. And I so I would work them up, but I had none of these tools, right? I didn't really understand. No one did. It sent them to the GI specialist who would biopsy them. It would be fine. And they'd send them back to me and say, like, you know, this kid's good to go, but the kid wasn't in school. So the kid wasn't good to go. So then I had to solve it, right? And at the time, you know, that was more like, integrated v medicine, you know, like, or, and then early on it became sort of functional medicine, but this didn't exist yet. But then after I figured that out, I had that tool, my toolbox. So the next kid that looked like that, I could do it. And then when the kid after that didn't get solved with that, I went and solved that. So I think, you know, so much of what I do today might be even, um, you know, standard of care for one of the kind of physicians you and I know, but you know, like it didn't exist before. So it sounds to me like you, it was organic for you. It's because of who you are and how you're wired. Yes. Right? Another physician might have said, okay, well, the GI guy said you're fine. We're good. As far as I can tell, you're fine. So maybe let's send you over to psych and see if there's something wrong with your child. Maybe it's all in their bed, which is still from a place of caring, but passing the box saying, doesn't fit in my box, didn't fit in his box. Let's go find another box. Whereas you're sitting there saying, well, there's clearly something wrong with this kid. What else should I be looking at? Which is, I think, you know, I think I'm hoping that these days is becoming a little bit more common, but I'm sure that at the time you were bucking the trend. I can't imagine that the physicians around you were saying, oh, sin. No, it was super. What are you doing? You're wasting your time. Well, no, it's worse than that, right? It's worse than wasting your time. They think you're crazy. You're going to hurt someone. You know, I'm still on staff at my children's hospital, my local hospital. But, you know, the more interesting, actually, like problem solving things I did, the more I think I made everyone nervous. And I actually started out of residency in a general, a really neat, small general, Pete's practice that was private. Like, done really right, but I had two partners. And about, well, 11 years ago, it got so uncomfortable. And like, the thing that pushed her over the edge was I had a book that said, Transdermal Magnesium on it, which I don't know why she thought that was the scariest, you know, scariest thing ever. And that was like her tipping point. And so I thought I have to do this different has to be just me. And that's 11 years ago, we opened this clinic. Wow. For that reason, because the general magnesium, I have all the crazy things you could have brought in. I'm, I'm slightly shocked. But I mean, yeah, but I was already doing your feedback in the clinic. I mean, there was a lot of weird stuff. I was doing, yeah, she saw that book and she's like, I don't know what she thought I was. I really don't know what she thought that meant, but not it was a bad thing. And frankly, it led you to where you are today. So overall, it's a good thing. So in pediatrics, you're really watching development in real time. I mean, that's, you know, that's the nature of pediatrics. What did that teach you about how chronic disease gets built years before it shows up? Right. This narrative that nobody wakes up when morning diabetic, nobody wakes up when morning with cardiovascular disease. That's a really interesting question, actually. So thanks, because I love kids and I love watching them evolve. It's part of what got me really passionate about the gut. So it's so clear to me that that the gut is so important for, I mean, I know everyone says that now, but like, actually, right? That's not just because it's sexy. It's paying a terrible price. No, like this is like a real thing because, you know, think about it, it's self-notself. You know, like the GI system, we need to accept food, but we need to reject toxins or, you know, we need to allow self and our happy microbes, but we need to not, you know, mountain immune response to the guys we don't want. And really, it is like the who we are is determined by that interface, right? Who am I? Who do I allow? Who do I fight? And if that goes wrong, I think that that probably is the the nitrous, even more than genetics. And then the other thing I'll say is that really good parenting matters. And I love parents and I love kids. And it's been like a true honor. I now have kids of kids I raised. And like recently, one of my nurses who didn't know the parent when she was little, but watched her parent now, she's got two kids. And she said, even if I hadn't told her that that had been my patient, that listening to her parent, that she knew it was mine, just like the way that she parented. I know it makes me want to cry. Yeah, that's like a legacy right there. Yeah, I flanted seeds, didn't I? And and that took root. Yes, right. Yes. No, it's true. Like I truly am the luckiest human I know. I'm so rich in in that. Yeah. And I mean, this you didn't ask this, but just like the reason I picked peeds, I knew even when I was six, I don't know how, but people said I was going to be a doc. And I was going to help kids. I would like, I think it wasn't really like popular when I would tell parents what they were doing wrong when I was very small with their children. But like I said, once I became a doc, everyone was like, oh, that's a great idea. But so I felt like, you know, there's been sort of an evolution of kids, you know, sort of the spirited kid that arrived maybe like in 90s. And I felt strong that my job was to way show the parents not to to squelch them, you know, because and that has been an honor. And the reason I mentioned all that to your question is I think we also underestimate the importance of the emotional component, the joy component. And even like the positive thinking, I mean, like it's not just positive thinking, right? I can create different biochemistry with thought. I can think like good things and my heart, you know, variability will change. And that changes the chemicals that are released. You know, like it's the power you have to just like love someone and have that change their life and their health is profound. And all of us can do that, right? Every the next question I was going to ask was about when you when did you realize relationship is not a nice to have but a clinical lever? And it sounds like it's this has been a part of you forever. Did it come from your mum and dad? You raised that way. Like do you think do you think your somehow your childhood fed this? And maybe you don't have to go into big telephets of the question. But one way or the other either through adoption or knowing that things needed to be different. You don't have to go into right now. So I yeah, I had a really uneasy childhood and both in the home and out of the home. And and I remember thinking, oh, these adults, man, you know, like a therapist told me later that I walked into the office when I was like, you know, 10 and said, okay, here's the problem. This is what's going on with this and like this is this needs to change. And she thought I was weird. And later I still saw her when I was like 18 and she said, you know, you were so right. You know, so I think I always I have compassion even like I can truly forgive. I think everyone always does the best they can. And I'm resilient. I do think it shaped me, but I think maybe like love is my superpower. Just like, I think you came into this world wired to do what you do, honestly. Yeah. And we don't we have far bigger topics for the audience to talk about today, but that's just from speaking with you and having this conversation. It sounds to me that you're here for this. And that's what this is all about for you. So all right. So your clinic is called you while you're close to the whole family multidisciplinary clinic is called centered and wellness. That's right. That's a beautiful name. What does that structure allow you to do that a normal primary care visit simply can't? Yes. So it was started because at my old practice, we used to spend an hour with each patient, which was like you understand like pediatricians don't get to do that normally. And with the changes in insurance from, you know, like 99 to 2010, that just got harder and harder. We couldn't stay afloat. So it became clear to me. And then also the trans term on magnesium thing. But I know it. By the way, it works really well. I know. I know better actually. It's amazing. It's so crazy. So I realized I was either going to have to do medicine differently or I was going to like I was going to have to either change the model or I was going to need to change what I wanted to do in the room. And like, hey, I can't work for anyone. Like, I mean, obviously, right? No, like I would be a natural magnesium. Right. No, because even that I was a partner, you know, and like still. So, so then me and five of my friends here that like my employees that I've worked with one for 21 years, one for 14 years, one for 15 years, like we, this is my mission is their mission. Like we, this is it. And so we, we thought, well, maybe we could try a concierge thing. This isn't like 2013, 2014, which is like not a thing, right? Not a thing. Not a thing. So, so but I thought, well, I wonder what what happened. And we contacted some companies and they said, you can't do that. Your pediatric office, you can't do that. And we were like, well, let's see what happens. So we closed the other clinic and we said, well, we'll open up and it was like three months. It was the best three months of my life because we created everything. And we, I felt like maybe we were going to throw a party and no one would show up. Do you know, like this is a whole new idea because we bill to know us. And then we bill insurance. So people pay kind of like a co-op, right? In order to want this kind of medicine, like I buy machines that are $60,000 that I'll never get paid off in the use of them, but our patients need them. So people sort of, that's it, right? And so on day 31, we filled up day 31. And we've like, we stopped counting it 200. We've had a wait list forever, but also patients don't go, right? Because so it started. So it's really fun. But now I get to do whatever I want. So, you know, the visits are an hour and over the years, I, you know, now I have five naturopaths that work for me. And, you know, I was a pediatrician, but then we started to get to bioidentical or, you know, menopause or my parents were getting to menopause. So I started, I thought, well, I better figure that out. So I, you know, that's what I went to A4M in like 2012 or whatever. And it's just sort of a buff. So I think what it allows me is to do whatever the heck I want, which is whatever the heck I need for the patient sitting in front of me. Yeah. That's amazing. All right. So it sounds like you don't, I don't know that we could define your zone of genius necessarily. But one of the things that you, one of the areas that you've really been talking about has been this post COVID area. And the idea of stolen nutrients. So you've said that COVID can steal or drain specific nutrients. And that replacing what's missing can change an outcome. Just doing that, which is really interesting, right? Can you walk us through that like what's being depleted and how does that translate? How does that show up in symptoms? Yeah, well, I couldn't be more excited because this is like, I get so crazy excited about this because the body heals. You know, if you just get out of the way, right? We have to give it what what you need. So I'm a pattern recognition expert because I'm a pediatrician. So like I said, there's like developmental phases, there's growth charts. And so I can see really quickly when something is an outlier. And then if I see repetitive outliers, now I have a pattern, right? And then I have to solve it because that's what I do. So what happened was is, we, you know, we worked through COVID and our patients, we took a care of them and that was fine. And but then like it started, I had a patient who was suicidal. And I've known her since birth, she wasn't supposed to be suicidal. She should have been panicked, right? Because that's who she is. And I was like, well, when did this start? Because I was so confused. And usually I've intervened before their suicidal, you know, like, yeah, well, there have been signs and symptoms. Right. We talk about that. Right. And we find solutions. So she said August 25th. I was like, what? Oh, and she said, yeah, I was at the fair. And I realized, if I can't be happy here, then I might as well just end it. And like her life was great. There was like no thing. Later, I figured out that she had had COVID. I think it was August 18th. And I went, well, that's weird, right? So for about, it was almost a year, maybe nine months, I treated her with medication after medication, because I'm good with that too. I don't love medication, but I really don't like kids who are suicidal. So it's always about picking the best choice. And then I was at a conference and I hadn't solved it. Like she wasn't actively suicidal, but she wasn't happy. I still was seeing her regularly. And because I had to solve it, right? So then I'm at a conference, and it was a totally, it was about COVID, but it was about how COVID hits this or there's three receptors for COVID in the gut. And that cell is called the enterocromaphyn cell. And its job is to take cryptofan and turn it into serotonin in the gut, not in the brain, to like move things along, you know, propulsion, so that the virus leaves and some other things. And obviously, I thought, huh. And then I thought, well, maybe this is a serotonin thing. Maybe that's what's up with her. And then I went, oh, bow. And like 90 to 95% of the serotonin in the body is made by those cells in the gut. So then I'm like, oh, this is it. And then I remembered, wait, wait, wait, like serotonin doesn't get into the brain, right? Like, like, cryptofan has to get into the brain. So you take cryptofan in about 1% of that gets into the brain, and that you can use to make serotonin for, you know, for the for moves, right? So then I was like, huh. Well, if COVID keeps removing it, right? Then like, maybe 1% of less cryptofan is less cryptofan, right? So what I love about my office is it's me and a bunch of people. And my front staff is as smart as everybody. Like, we sit at lunch for an hour, and we talk about cases or a teach. So I throw this out there. I'm like, do you guys like, let's let's brainstorm this. And one of my natural pals who's so smart, he said, well, does something could we just like give her some cryptofan? I was like, I don't know, why that didn't seem so obvious. I gave it to her. I started back two weeks later. You know what she said. I think this has just been a really great learning experience. I was like, what? So I removed all her meds. And you know, she went back to life. And I thought, well, that's remarkable. So then then I started digging deeper and deeper. And then I started talking about it. And then later, a patient came, well, actually, it was her. She came back and she just wasn't joyful. This is like maybe nine, 12 months later. And I was thinking, well, if I was going to prescribe for you, I would like, I would try to tickle your dopamine. Like I'd probably give you well butrin, which works on dopamine. But I wasn't going to give her meds because I'd been through that before. And so then I went to my group in, you know, at lunch and said, you guys, like, now she's not making dopamine. And I was like, you know, does trip to fans know? Because it's trip to fans goes into serotonin, but tyrosine goes into epinephrine, nor epinephrine and dopamine. So I'm like sitting at lunch. And one of my naturopaths says, just a second runs into her room, comes out like three minutes later and shows for me the three cofactors that are shared in those two pathways. And I went, oh, my gosh. And they are P5P, which is an active form of B6. I'm sorry, BH4, that's what I meant, sorry, which is like it's evolved in methylation and then also zinc. And it's very, very expensive to give someone BH4. So instead I cheated and give methylfolate just to support the methylation. So that's my cheat. So I'm going to say from here on that they need folate, but it needs to be methyl. But really it's BH4, but I'm cheating the best I can. So and it works. So that's fine. And it's cheap, right? It's not like $100,000 a year or whatever. So, right. So I gave her P5P zinc and methylfolate and her joy came back. And like, so I think what happened was is that enter chromaffingant cell is being stimulated by COVID all the time. So, and I mean, if we have time later, we can talk about how it incorporates itself, about how COVID incorporates itself into our microbiome. But otherwise, it's just true. And you know, every time you go to Safeway, it gets spit on you. And even if you don't catch it, right, it hits those cells and you expose it. So there was this repetitive drain. It doesn't have to be a big COVID event, right? It probably was. You're talking about the spike proteins getting embedded in the like the spike proteins, getting embedded or the actual virus. The actual virus. Wow. Okay. Also the spike proteins. Sorry. Is it like a latent virus like a lime or an EBV? Is that is that a little bit what you're saying? Right. So, so first with the enter chromaffingant cell, it has three receptors for COVID. Now, okay. So it can also be probably stimulated just by the spike protein. But now I was talking about COVID. But to answer your Q question is that the problem with COVID is it can do a bunch of things so it can either incorporate itself in fact, our microbiome like like oh. So you know about the virus right now. So when I first heard her talk about the fact that it's a bactrophage, which means that you know, it's supposed to infect me. And then I'm supposed to decide if I want to kill that cell that has it in it or you know, or or or what or fight or whatever. But if it's in my microbiome, well, that's self like see, right? I have allowed those. So this is like catastrophic on a level that I mean, we could talk about for two hours. And I like I cried for a whole weekend when I realized she was right because I thought that like that's it. We should just like burn it and start over like actually. And so it can do that anyway. That's on a happier note. And it can also our immune system can keep showing the spike protein. And also I mean, it just goes on and on about it can live in the gut, not even in your microbiome. We have to get Robin Rose and you to play because she has so much to talk about that. Okay. So basically what you've what you've realized and with the help of your of your community really because this is you know, there were a group of you presenting last September. Yeah. On this topic and and you know, what I think is so phenomenal is there's all these we're not necessarily talking about major medical conferences here. We're talking about side bar events being put on by people like Leonard. Yes. Right. Yes. Who from new bio age, who's like, this is a conversation that needs to happen. Yes. We don't have time for a 4M to get with the program. So I'm going to bring together the four women that I know who are like at the forefront. And we're going to jam on stage about this, which is which I think is so this is how we make progress. Yes. And it's a lot of what you're talking about like, you know, you're brilliant and you have a staff that you can sit and play with and and throw things at a whiteboard and say, oh, this is what's going on. Right. It's it's remarkable. So and so what we're saying here and you know, it's so funny because I had this conversation on another podcast recently with someone and I've said, you know, it's like the world is now BC and AC. It's before COVID and after COVID. It's like that so seriously. It has redefined Yes. Our our world and whether we want to admit it or not admitted, this is not just another virus. This is a virus that has redefined human health. And it, you know, what the challenge is now Yes. The challenge that you and your colleagues have taken on is, okay, it's here not going anywhere. Right. What's it doing and how do we mitigate it? Yes. And I mean, you could not be more right about how it's changed things and it will not go back. Like no, no, it doesn't sound like it. If it's incorporated, you know, I like to say that my pronouns really should be we and us, me and my microbes, yeah. Right. Everybody should be. Yes. Right. So, so but now it's me and us and COVID. Yeah. Like probably forever. And and so that creates a constant, you know, cytokine, you know, cascade both in the gut and in the body and in the brain. And that's why it will it is completely changed the landscape. And it is why I cried for a week and I actually thought, well, okay. But then I put my big girl pants on. You put your and when you put exactly on your big girl panties and you said, okay, what are we going to do about this? But so yeah, can I just say about Leonard? Like this was really neat because you know, the people who put this on. So we had this idea that this was a big deal. And like, it was not a very big conference. I think he had a hard time even getting a hotel to allow us to be there and talk about this is what I heard because to my knowledge, there hadn't been a COVID discussion yet. And we weren't talking about COVID the way everyone else is talking about COVID. You know, Betsy was talking about what it does to the mitochondria. Abid was talking about what it does to the vasculature. Robin Rose was talking about the research she's done on the spike protein and all this stuff. It's amazing. And oh, and Suzanne, sorry, Suzanne was talking about what it's done to the autonomic nervous system. And and and that's not popular. It's also not known. It's also completely overwhelming. And the people who came really liked it. But for the amount of work, let's say that I just put into the slides for that. Like I said to you earlier, it's the thing I'm most well, one of the things I'm most proud of is like the effort I put into that. And it has to start somewhere. And Leonard said, let's start it here. Right. Yeah. And it will from there, it will gain traction and amplitude. Right. And maybe this conversation gets it to the next somebody will hear this and say, I want to host this conversation and it's done on a different stage. Right. Right. So answer the first question. The depletion of nutrients that were that you're seeing are on the one hand, the trip to fan, but on in a bigger level, those three precursor molecules that are required as cofactors to make both serotonin and dopamine. And those are just to recap their, we can cheat with methylfolate that a BH4, a 5p, which is a form of a six. And the third one, the third one, zinc, zinc, which is, which is really interesting. Can zinc got a ton of attention? Because of course, we all know if we get sick, we need zinc. What the thesis is or the hypothesis is that those three in particular become depleted by the virus. Right. So like in short, I'll just recap that a little bit different is that this and real core mafian cell has three receptors for COVID. So more than anything else, it grabs it. It uses trip to fan and a bunch of cofactors to make serotonin. But for these kids with the mood thing, and this is why it gets bigger and bigger, first it was that they didn't have enough trip to fan to make serotonin. Next, it was because these three cofactors were shared between trip to fan to serotonin and tyrosine to the catacolamines. Then we couldn't make catacolamines. But a whole host of nutrients are being depleted. It's just that I'm picking one thing at a time. And so it got bigger and bigger. You know, like at the beginning, it was really, you know, with the first round of COVID or the second round of COVID or the third round of COVID. It was the trip to fan we were noticing most. And then it was like probably the next bigger ones, which was those three that you said. But then it actually became bigger and bigger. And it's really all of the nutrients that are being used. So then calcium is in, I mean, just like a whole bunch of them. And this was, I love biochemistry. So and my mind is crazy. So you should see, I actually kept sort of almost framed my thinking about this because there's like little scribbles everywhere as I figured it out. And now I know that everything needs to be repleted. But you can like save someone from like severe mood changes or little mood changes. You know, like, we've probably treated just like over the phone, like go get some trip to fan kind of thing. Probably 200 people in our clinic. Oh my gosh, probably more because the mom will call and say the kid is depressed. We say, well, like before you come in, do me a favor, do this for three days and call me. And then we say, well, and like, could you do it too? And she'll, you know, we'll get the response that I think you saved my marriage. I thought my husband was irritating. But it turns out, yeah, turns out I didn't have any serotonin. And it's like, there's so much going on in the world right now that I wonder how much of it could just be a nutritional deficiency that you can replete for not very much money. Like I think you can even get L-trip to fan at like safe way. So two questions is do you think some people are more susceptible than others? Absolutely. Because at this point, I think you'd be hard pressed to find any human that unless they were living a very isolated life in some far-flung reaches of the planet that wasn't somehow touched by this. Oh, whether whether they got the virus or they were exposed to it and were asymptomatic or calculated whatever. Like it's just like it's it's ubiquitous. It's ubiquitous. That's the word I'm looking for. And so but yet some people seem to be more susceptible than others. And maybe that just depends on factors we have yet to identify. Right. And it's like with chronic Lyme, why are some people bit by ticks and it doesn't happen in some due? It's about the immune system. I think maybe fighting it. But it doesn't matter whether or not you are having big cases, right? Like I like to say poor safe way. I always pick on safe way. But like you go to safe way. Someone spits on you. Even if you don't get COVID, if they spit COVID into you, probably it was that intro chroma fiancel that grabbed it, right? Why do we have um parasitosis in response to viruses? This is on purpose. Our body is so smart, right? So that creation of serotonin creates parasitosis. You know, why do we vomit and have diarrhea in response to viruses? It's too explicit. So yeah, even if you don't catch it, you're doing that, right? And it educates the immune system. It modulates the autonomic nervous system all in the interic system. So I don't even care if you catch it, you are being drained. For some people, let's say it's incorporated into their microbiome. So the draining is going much faster or it's continuous. And then you know, like some people don't methylate as well. So they're then like other components. But I think this touches everyone to your point. I think, like clearly COVID is ubiquitous, it's also not going anywhere. You get it. You're exposed every day, even if you don't know it. And it's draining us. Yeah. Okay. So what are the three to five patient patterns that make you suspect that this post-COVID nutrient depletion is happening even before you see the labs? Yeah, in fact, I don't test labs for this. It's you know, you're bothered with labs. No, it's always the three to five patients. Yeah. All right. So what are the patterns? Okay. You're looking for. So one is a mood change. So you know, someone will say, like my sister called and I said when I was figuring this out, right? Like, oh, Michelle, can you go get some trip to fan? Because I think maybe you might need it, you know, soon. And she said, well, why? And I said, well, have you been sad? And she said, well, yeah, because my daughter just moved away to college, you know, and actually it was graduate school. But no, it was college because this was several years ago. And so that's why I'm crying. And I said, well, like, will you indulge me when you take it? She calls me back. She was like, what the heck did you just give me? Right? It's trip to fan. Right? So one is mood changes. It doesn't have to be suicidality. It can be irritability. And right, so any sort of feels like being on your period, you know, like everything is, you've like one nerve, you know, and like everyone's just overbearing. I mean, open up Instagram and the memes of women doing the most hilarious things. I've seen them. Haven't you seen them? And and and I relate to a lot of them, right? Like the sound of chewing or. But I think that I think the takeaway from that is, first of all, the memes are hilarious. We relate to them. But it's the difference between like your sister is the difference between sitting and crying, you know, inconsolably because your daughter has gone through a right of passage. Frankly, another parent with a different child would give the right arm for versus celebrating the fact that she's moved on and feeling sad at the loss because knowing that, you know, having her near you is never, you know what I mean? Like there's it's almost like there's an appropriate sadness to when our children grow up. And when you're in when you're on your knees weeping, uncontrollably going, I should like, I just shouldn't be crying like that. It shouldn't be this bad. Right. Kind of. So I just have to say about Michelle, my sister, just in case she sees this, she was doing it appropriately, reading that she was, I just don't want to. Yeah, you're exaggerating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just show no harm intended. Nobody else knows who you are. You're amazing. Yeah. But yes, to your point, it's about an appropriate or like a reasonable response. Is this yeah, like an unexpectedly large response? Okay. So moved. One second one. Oh my gosh. It's inappropriate weight gain. And I do not know why I cannot fully express this to adult people. But I will tell you kids follow a pattern. I'm a pattern recognition expert. I teach my parents how to feed their kids from birth with the mantra of, you know, the parent offers healthy food choices. The child decides what they need. I make sure they grow well. So I don't have kids who have growth problems, right? So and if you look at the BMI on a kid at about age two, it's here. They're all right. About five to six, it reaches a low point. And then they start to fill out at eight every child from two drops their BMI. That's just it. If you think I lose a little puffy hands and the puffy feet, it's very sad. Yes. So I had four back to back three year olds who at the well child check their BMI went like that. And I was like, yeah, in a row. And I thought, okay, so in 25 years, this hasn't happened. Why, why now it's probably COVID. And I was already playing with the nutrients. So I thought to myself, and I went to my, you know, my lunch meeting. And I said, okay, you guys, what creates, because they weren't changing their eating. And like a three year old doesn't suddenly, you have to chase them around anyway. They're not suddenly like, I'm gonna like overeat. That's how that works. They got other stuff to do. So, so I said, like, let me think. So what creates inappropriate weight loss, right? So I was trying to think it through. I was like cocaine, fenn, fenn, things like that, right? Without, by inappropriate, I mean, not related to calories. Right. Right. So, so then I look, it's catacolamines, right? You require catacolamines, epinephrine, epinephrine, to take glucose up into the muscle via transportor called glute four. If you do not have catacolamines, then you cannot take glucose up and you will have too much glucose and guess what your body will do. It will store it directly as fat. It doesn't, doesn't matter. And why would you not have catacolamines in this COVID phase? Well, because you're missing them, they're treated. That's right. And those three, right? Yeah. So, so I gave it to them. And oh my gosh, I've chills even telling you now, those kids, I didn't talk to them about eating, because that's not part of my mantra, right? Well, as a three year old, good luck with that. Right. Exactly. And I didn't talk about weight in a way they could understand it either, right? And and all of them came down on their own back to their native curve within a few months. And okay, the first kid put on, it was like, what was it? It was 25% of her body weight in like nine months. I mean, it was like, I didn't even know you could do that. She went, oh, yeah, she went from 40 to 50 pounds. She was like, I think she was like two and a half at the time in, like six to nine months. I don't even know how you do that, right? And what's really interesting is is that after at first, they're not eating more. And this is true about everyone, you know, the glute four thing just isn't working. But then after a while, they get leptin resistant. And and now they are voraciously hungry. And so like a year into it when I figured it out about this one girl who had gotten kept gaining weight, which I couldn't understand. I was blaming grandma because grandma, I was sure it was grandma's fault. It's lighting her snacks. Yeah, because she was also the child care provider. I kept calling grandma in like. And so those chicken McNuckets, that's right. Right. But she would like as soon as she was done with dinner, she would ask for another breast of chicken and broccoli and whatever. And her parents were like, what the heck? So in that's weird. Like as soon as they finished a meal, they asked for another meal. That's right. And an adult will tell me so in adults, we call it sugar craving. And I have done this at adults now too, right? If they're gaining weight inappropriately, meaning they're like, I put on 20 pounds in the last six months and I'm hardly eating. I give them the nutrients. And if it was due to this depletion, or sometimes often it is, they will start to come back down. Now kids will do it super fast. Like maybe like those kids dropped back to their curve in like maybe three months. Like it started immediately. But then they were back on their curve. And adults, I think it takes about twice as long as how they got there. Is that makes sense? Yeah. But the sugar craving will go away immediately. Like on day one or two, it's really amazing. And so, okay, wow. I have so many questions about that. But I want to keep us going. Okay. So that's two. The third one is kids were peeing too much and drinking too much. And they that is type one diabetes. Like this is a medical emergency in pediatrics. You have about two weeks before they're in the ICU with decay. So I started, I thought, oh my gosh, I was checking everyone's urine and there wasn't glucose in it. So that didn't make sense. I was checking their blood sugar. And then I realized it was the same kids who had done that zinc. So I figured out zinc. So then I'm like, okay, there must be something here. But the anti-dioretic hormone made in the brain that goes to the kidneys. It says like don't pee everything zinc is the rate limiting stuff. So I give them one dose of zinc over. So you know, that was enough to replete them. Yes. Because we're not talking about like, you know, this isn't like an overabundance. We just need to not be deficient. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that would be three. And then you know, then it gets they get smaller. Like some people have mass cell issues because more than they would normally because you need some of these nutrients that are in that are used from triptophanacere tonate to stabilize mass cells or to break down histamine or things like that. And so, but I would say the big ones that like people should think about is if you if you're upset or you're having mood issues or if you think everyone around you is irritating because that's often the same thing. It doesn't feel like you. Yeah. Or if you're not happy because that's the dopamine thing. Or if you're suddenly voraciously craving sugar or you're gaining weight that didn't make sense. And it's not normal weight. Like it's weird weight. It's just fat. Right. So it's like in weird places your body changes too. So that would be the second and the third one would be I usually ask them just serve for confirmation. Do you find your drinking your thirsty or then usual or you're being more often than usual? Wow. But that's fascinating because those can be all conflated with other things. Oh totally. Any woman in parimenopause, yeah, premenopause is or frankly premenstrual. Right. Like it does it show up in men the same way? Yes. Yes. Totally. I think for guys that would be easier because guys don't you know, guys are men. They're not typically that moody. They're fine. Right. Maybe we know different men. I don't know. I don't know. My guys are pretty steady. Yeah. No, I get mine too. But I think that men don't talk about their feelings. I think maybe that's what you mean. Right. That's true. That's true. And so in some ways, like if you noticed they were down, you might notice. But in some ways they don't talk about it. I have to actually ask them. And they're fighting. Yeah. What actually just happens is usually the kid and the mom are in, oh, because that's the other thing. It's not just my staff right. My patients are in this with me. I'm like, oh, let's try this thing. You know, I educate them. And then they call back and they tell me, so we make the mom and the kid do it. And they're like, oh, yeah, it's life changing. And then we're like, we're just going to put it in the center of the table. We're not going to tell dad why he has to take it. We're just going to say, this is what the family's doing at dinner. And so dads are taking it and they're changing too. But I don't talk to the dads about it as much. I talked to their legs. Right. I love that. All right. Can I just say it only takes like five days, seven days. This is not like a forever thing. I'm not about. I'm not going to make you should notice a difference. Is that what you're saying? If that's the issue, yeah, you'll notice a difference in a week. If that, if you don't notice a difference in a week, then it's something else. Right. Then I didn't hurt you because you took some, you took a bite. What's the worst that can happen? Exactly. So what's the most common mistake people are making trying to self-treat long COVID symptoms with supplements? Do you think? I think. Gosh, long COVID has become ubiquitous. So what are what? Right. I mean, I think maybe I'm going to be less judgmental about not that you were judgmental. But like, no, yeah, I think that everyone is doing the best they can. And I think most people don't understand the mechanism of what's going on the way that maybe myself and some of my friends do. So I think that both physicians and people are doing the best they can. They're just trying things or they don't know that there's anything that could help. So I think maybe the biggest mistake would be is that they don't have access to this isn't really their fault to someone who understands what's going on. And those of us who do, I think are just starting to say it louder and louder. And you know, I, for instance, I've been speaking about this topic at the conferences that I speak at for about two and a half, maybe three years now, maybe almost three years, two and a half. So now I have providers come back crying to tell me about all the lives that they changed using these things. But you know, like not it's so easy. And it's, so I think maybe just we're not there yet. You know, we're in the middle of an evolution. And so I think people are throwing things at themselves trying to fix they don't know what. And I think, you know, the next question, which is about, you know, where do you think mainstream medicine is missing the signal? Is it the mitochondria, the neurotransmitter, the immune shifts, the microbiome? It sounds to me like it's all of it. Like they're just not looking at it. And again, like not their fault. And not because they don't want to. I know. You know, we're going to, we're going to say this once here. Like we're not, nobody's blaming anybody. Like, you know, your conventional alopathic doctor is doing the best that they can with what they've got. I think that what's happening is that we have new a new set of circumstances. The landscape has changed dramatically. And we need new lenses, new optics, new approaches to really help people. Yes. And the good news is that people like you and your friends have, you've made progress in this area. And you'll probably, if I interview you in another year, you'll be like, oh my god, not you'll never believe we also figured out blood blood. Like it's every week. Yes. It'll keep evolving. And to me, that you said something earlier that that it's the hallmark of the doctor who who doesn't stay stuck in their paradigm, which is it wasn't working. Or I realized I got that wrong. Or, you know, being willing to continually learn and be wrong and build and and evolve. I would say guys, you know, when you're working with a medical provider, you want someone who's treating you and everything else like a Rubik's cube. Right. Yeah. How do I, if I flip all the things this way, I'm going to like this row. What falls into place, you know, it's and and I think that the current, the conventional system doesn't allow for that time and space to think. That's where you moved into your model. Right. And I think you nailed it there with time and space. What I want to say about the MD's, I know it's the system that trained us and they don't have time. Like I spend an hour with every patient. I think like Jen Pieds, they get like 11 minutes or something. You can't even know. So I think these are really good docs who have demands on them. They don't even have the time to think. So and I think maybe time is one is probably our most valuable, just like period as humans. If you've ever thought, am I just lazy now? Why don't I have energy anymore? Let me stop you right there. Look, most people blame motivation with what's really happening, maybe at a cellular slowdown. Your mitochondria, the engines inside your cells naturally decline with age, which means less energy, slower recovery, and more effort for the same results. Might opure longevity gummies support that exact issue. I take them daily because they help renew mitochondrial function. And yes, I love that it's a gummy and not another pill. Might opure contains the most research form of uralithinate on the planet. Timeline has run more than 25 human clinical trials and holds over 50 global patents. This is longevity science, not wellness fluff. So stop blaming willpower, support yourselves. Go to timeline.com forward slash knack 20 for 20% off. Might opure gummies. What's your minimal effect of data set for someone who's post COVID not bouncing back? I'm sorry, what do you mean by data set? I want to make sure I understand. So what are the metrics you need to see? Like you have someone in front of you who's post COVID, they're just not bouncing back. What's the minimum amount of information that you need to see from them? I mean, it sounds like just from a symptomatic perspective, that's going to twig you to say, let's try this. Right. That are there labs that you like to see? Let's say that doesn't work. Are there certain labs you want to see that if you more insight? Yeah, so I tend to testing like clinically heavy because if I, right, there aren't really good like this as this field evolves. There aren't good great tests for a lot of this. How do you really look at mitochondrial health? They're all expensive. You and I could talk about that for two hours. So it's really more about, well, back to you think about what's the minimal thing. If they say to me, I'm not as happy, energetic, quick, you know, sort of things like brain fog. I'm tired. It's all the things that we think of with long colors. I'm passing out. I'm, you know, I'm not getting up for work whatever. So that story for me in this setting, meaning in this, I was going to say post COVID world, but you know, I spoke before I think it's right. Yeah. In this world. And everyone lives in this world, right? Then I'm going to guess that that might be it. And I'm going to try a few things. You know, I have some tricks for like if you can't get a bed in the morning and then I have some, you know, and we try a few things. And then once we figure out what works for that patient, that got them standing against so that they can get back to their life. And then I have to go handle COVID. And like them, that's like a really big talk at a topic and you'll be having Robin on. And so she can talk about that too. But so I don't usually send tests for what you're describing. I sent test if I don't know what to do. But the easiest way I know what to do is to try the things that worked on the other patients before them. And if that doesn't work, then I try something else. And usually we get it right. Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds to me like there's also work going, if work a foot to kind of chase the bug out. Yes. No, yes. And yes, we don't have to talk about that if that's not in your wheelhouse. We've got lots of things in your wheelhouse. But I mean, I like encouraging. Yes. Yes. I mean, and Robin can talk to you about V9, which is a supplement that she works. That's a bunch of polyphenols that helps remove spike protein and her data is really exciting and interesting. I get overwhelmed at the thought of like needing to go through a very intense protocol to remove something that I know the next time you go to Safeway is going to be again. And so and and and so like I really know, I know I shop at Safeway. So that's why I say, but you know, and thank God there's people like Robin and the people that are doing her work, right? Because they're going to solve the problem. And meanwhile, like I that's overwhelming for me. And that I like I get paralyzed by the thought of that like I have to clean everything up and keep it clean up. I'm just going to like we got work to do. I'm just going to like, well, it feels to me like someday some protocol could be a quarterly clearance. Yes. And between replenishing those nutrients that are dropping us for when you get re exposed. I know like I think down the road, it won't be overwhelmed at all. Yeah. It will. We will know. We'll have clarity and we'll have strategies to do it. Yeah. But okay. So in the meantime, you've linked this work to outcomes, like we've talked about this depression and anxiety. So and I think we've already talked, the question was what's your model of what's happening biologically? We've already talked about this. It's a completion of the cofactors and the uptake of trip to fan that's affecting the catacoleumines. Yes. And and that whole process. So for someone who's listening to this, who's hearing this. Yeah. I've I would you suggest. Yeah. Tell us tell them what to do. Yeah. So like why not even if you're not sure you're grouchy, you could either ask your spouse or you could just try, you know, like so many people say to me like I didn't realize that I thought I was just tired, you know, and run down because without epinephrine and norapinephrine, you're fatigued, right? So you don't have zest, you don't have, you know, verve, right? So, you know, like and there's no like checkbox for how's your verve, right? You know, you know, how's your get up and go every morning? You know, and people just think like, oh, it's a holiday is, oh, you know, my kid went to college, oh, you know, whatever. So I think really everyone could try this and it's fun. You know, like there's so much that's not fun about COVID. Like trying things and seeing what happens is kind of fun. So you can like before I created anything, we just had people do this and this is easy, ready? So trip to fan, L-tripped to fan comes as usually 500 milligram capsules. So if you would just take three of those, all at once, yeah, and I could go into the science about for me why it needs to be all at once, but it's the, it competes with other things at a transporter into the blood brain barrier and it's about that ratio. So I'd rather you take them if you can't, sorry, all at once rather than throughout the day and do that for three to five days and see if something has changed. And the reason I don't make everyone try everything all of like the co-factors to is because I can't get a lot of men to to buy in, but if they feel a little better in a few days, I can usually get them to take the other ones. So then you have street cred. Yes, exactly. That's true because now they're like, wait, what? So then if you take a B complex with it has to have P5P and methylfolate, I don't care which one. Sometimes it really matters to me what brand to use. This is everybody needs this. So get one of those and get zinc. I don't care, 25 milligrams, something like that. Do one of each of those a day with the trip to fan. And I don't care if you give them all the same time, you know, what time of day. Oh, yeah, people are like, oh, the trip to fan's going to make me sleepy. No, like just because you eat that, okay, that's not true about Thanksgiving, right? That's that sugar. You're eating too many carbs, right? You're eating too much food. Piyade, you're eating too food coma. Exactly. And you know, we do make melatonin from serotonin, but not just because there's food around. We make it, but we release it in response to Diurnal, right? So you're not going to make people sleepy during the day. I don't care what time you make it. So and then I just say, if you noticed anything like to make it simple, now I say, just try the trip to fan for a week. If you're up for trying all three, try all three for a week. If it a week, you think I changed something, give yourself a full two weeks. Then you can stop. I'm all about like less is more, but we have now over time seen that the same people keep getting repeated and they call me back and they're like, I'm depressed. I'm like, um, do you remember? Like a year ago we did this and and they're like, oh, shoot. And and they do it and it fixes it. So we've done that so many times that now I think maybe because people go to Safeway, like maybe three to five, five to seven days a month. Why don't you just take the nutrients? Is he always interesting? So you're not suggesting people do this on a non-going basis. No, you're suggesting they do it five to seven days like the first week of every month. That's right. Yeah, days one to seven or something or or if that's too hard, do Saturdays and Sundays or just Saturdays. I don't care some because you know, I'm it's not like I need to get you way up here. I just need do not to be down here. And so the reason if we do it every five or seven days a month, like you get here, let's say, and then when you get exposed, you're you're coming to here, you're not coming to here. That's what I'm looking for until you get depleted. And so is there anyone who shouldn't choose Triptophane or these nutrients? Is there anyone for who this is? That is a great question. So in short, people worry about things like serotonin syndrome. So like let's say someone's on an SSRI, which makes serotonin stick around longer. If that was started when they did have serotonin, I don't think you're going to give them actually, you know, I'm just going to make this simple because that's going to get really complex. I think maybe if you're on an SSRI, meaning, you know, something that modulates serotonin, then maybe talk to your doc before taking Triptophane. That's like way overkill. Do you know, like, but probably it's fine, but you should talk to your doc. That's right. That's right. Or if you take it and you get all like all jacked up that day, you're like, you know, jittery hot, you feel like your heart is racing. Just don't do it anymore. But yeah. And I would say someone who is suicidal should not change their moods without the support of someone. So, you know, like, there's a black box warning on, let's say, like Prozac that it can create the ability to kill yourself because you get, you know, when you're depressed, it's not just your mood, right? It's all like, you know, so I can give you the energy to do things again. Half on the same. Yeah. So, yeah. So, you know, so if you are personally going to do this and you're already actively suicidal, one, you get help before you take Triptophane. But, I don't think it would have been the Triptophane's fault if that makes sense. So it's no, but, but to say so anyone on an SSRI or someone who is already having suicidal ideation, that's right. So, you could think about this, but do it with someone, that's with your provider. That's okay. Now, you've given people the recipe. They can just go out to say forever or designs for health or full script and get their nutrients. But you also decide and probably, you know what, I think we've now talked to you long enough to know that you are a woman who is looking for solutions and to provide easy solutions to people. So you did go ahead and create your own product. I did. And I'm so sorry. Can I go back and say one more person that shouldn't take it? I just realized, okay, thanks. Is that someone who, the Triptophane thing, like the more I understand about Triptophane, the more complex it is, I like way simplified it down, right? Because most of the Triptophane in the body is actually used by the liver to make an ADN ATP. And, right. And which is going to make you tired and depressed by the fact that you don't have enough time. Right. And in the pathway of that, you make kind of your run in and other things that can actually cause more inflammation and that. Also, the immune system makes a receptor for Triptophane when you're infected that then further perpetuates that. So it's way more complex. But the punchline there is, like for instance, Betsy gets really worried if I want to give people Triptophane, because she sees mostly in this setting, she's worried about mitochondria and really sick people. So I, so really sick people, it's not about replacing depletion yet. Like you should handle the really sick part, right? So, so if you're, you know, totally not functioning, needing, you know, plasma, ferrisis and stuff, like that's the wrong person. And because you will feel worse, because if I give you Triptophane, you're going to use it, right? And because there's actually five steals, you know, like the liver and the immune system. And so everyone will start to use it. And you might make more kind of your end in and quinoa Acid and, and those can be inflammatory for the brain. So it's not like Triptophane's fault. It's just that the immune system or the body was trying to do something and it was depleted of Triptophane. And if you give it back, it can do more of that. So if you feel worse, that's where you feel better. So if you're super sick, we're talking about like, Repletion, right? After. And so, but if you take it, this is like also diagnostic, right? So if you take my supplement and on day one, you're like, yeah, no, what is she talking about? I don't feel good. Guess what? That was the cheapest diagnostic tool ever. You need to go find a real doctor, right? Because like someone who knows what they're doing about about, not about Triptophane, but about COVID, because by definition, I now know that your mitochondria are in trouble. And you need to find someone who knows how to help you with that. It's like Triptophane is fueling a system that can't function to begin with. That's right. It's trying to fuel a broken system. That's exactly right. And it gave it the fuel. Yeah. Yeah. So I would say, you know, the body is so smart. This is how I do what I do is I trust each person's body to tell me what they need. So we try something. I tell the patient, you know, what to look for, what to tell me about. They feed back to me, then we learn something. So if you take Triptophane and you think I lit a fire, you need Triptophane really badly, but not right now, you know, you need to go. The order of operations question, which, which, you know, it's interesting to me is, and I mean, this is a very loaded question. We can't possibly answer here. But so many people are on anti-anxiety and anti-depressant men's now. And if we could go back in time and look at how many of those people came onto those men's since that big C event. And because, you know, and how many could have been fixed or helped, not fixed. Okay. Or can be helped. Right. But they're already on the SSRIs. And so, you know what I mean? Like, it's, it just, it's, it's, it's the, I get overwhelmed by that because I sit there and go, wow, like if we just unravel a little bit. Yeah. And start over with some of these people. And doesn't mean they can't be helped now. But I'm just saying that, you know, some of these people become attached or they believe this is the thing. But, you know, the tragedy is very often these medications don't work long term. And they're not addressing the problem. Right. They're still deficient. Right. Because it won't work well, you know, whether SSRI is so it's a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. It says to the, to the, to the neuron, just like wait two more seconds or nanoseconds before you take it up. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, but if you don't have enough trip to fan, you don't have enough serotonin. If you don't have enough B6, you don't have enough epinephrine nor epinephrine dopamine. Right. So you can do whatever you want about the uptake. But there's not enough like that girl. I kept changing her meds and it wasn't working. I gave her trip to fan and we took everything off. That's a bunch. So I, I, you're right. Those meds don't work well enough. They did work to get her out of a suicidality, which is I think why people are taking them. But, um, you know, it's nutrition. Like, you know, it's food. It's so much easier. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Okay. Can I tell you about myself? Now that I took us off. Tell me, tell me about the supplement because then I want to talk about infant microbiomes. Okay. Then I'll be fast. Okay. So here's the deal that, remember, I said that thing that I was going to frame. So I figured out that over time, the more and more trace nutrients were getting depleted and it was figuring out something else and some, the immune system can't calm itself down now. You know, you're getting mass cell issues, all that stuff. So I then was tired of having to solve the next problem. I said, you know what? I'm going to put everything in one place and I came up with it and I tried to give it away because I'm so busy, right? I'm like so busy. And I don't think I did a good enough job expressing the importance of this, what looks like, not very exciting supplement, right? So, um, and so, uh, it sat there for about nine months and then people are asking me about it because I'm teaching, you know, and I'm like, this supplement's going to come out. It'll just be so much easier because it's got all the little things because then I'm like, you should do these things. Oh, and this other thing and this other thing and people were listening to me talk like, what the heck? So, anyway, I came up with it and I gifted it and I don't think I did a good enough job explaining it. So after nine months or whatever, I said, okay, wait, like, I just got to make this people are getting upset with me. Okay, well, note to self, I should really stick with like the recipe and the doctrine, like the whole, like finding a manufacturer, like, do you know how many lawyers I had to get to make sure I wasn't going to like lose my touch? Just it's not my superpower. Anyway, I'm not sure I would do it again, but I absolutely am glad that I did now. It was a labor of love, but it is created and, um, and in fact, um, so you do not have to use mine. I, like I said, that before, you can use the recipe I just gave you for most of it. This works better. So this is everything that you need from you. That's right. My friend Leonard that we spoke of earlier, who put on that really awesome convention or a conference new biohage carries in and I, I carry it myself. And so, um, you can go to my website. We're going to go back to this. We, I promise you it'll be in the show notes and you'll be able to, you guys, if for those of you who want to get your hands on this stuff, and remember, it's a five to seven day a month supplement. This is not something you're going to take in perpetuity. So, and it'll either help be helpful or not be helpful. And it might be diagnostic exact and could be diagnostic. So, as a pediatrician, you would have thoughts and insights on the infant microbiome changes. Yeah. And where you think we might be heading for trouble. Like you, you're warning about this that it's shifted over the last 25 years. Interesting. My son was born 25 years ago. What do you feel has changed and why does it matter for health spab? Yes. It matters for everything. So, yeah, I've been practicing since 99. So, whatever that is now, 25 years of it. And at the beginning, there of my career, most of the kids were fine and they had good skin and they didn't all have asthma and eggs, they could eat most foods, right? But there was a few families, right? You know, like my tough families, I don't mean that emotionally or, I mean, medically complex, right? Yeah. You know, autoimmune, you know, and those moms, I was often having to take milk out of their diet because the milk protein was getting through the breast milk and upsetting their stomachs and their skin was like sloughing, or you know, whatever they had to asthma. And, but it was just a few, right? And all the other docs said I was crazy and then fast, so I would take it out and they would do fine, right? Then fast forward, it started to be like more and more foods. Now I was having to take out like milk, you know, soy, nuts, eggs, shellfish, you know, and, right. But then when I would do that, the infants gut would heal and then we could put them back in. So, these are kids that went on to eat whatever they wanted because I allowed their gut to heal. What has happened over time is that without help, I don't think they heal. And I think that their, I think that the long drain has probably been glyphosate. We're about three generations in now. And, you know, while glyphosate might not actually kill human cells, it decimates microbes. And it decimates specifically microbes that we absolutely need. And, you know, so that's fine. Where we get our microbes, right? Infants are sterile. They come out, they go, right? And they suck in mom's vaginal and rectal microbiome and we kiss them and we sneeze on them and, you know, we start to populate them, right? And lacto-farin, and breast milk, health, etc., it's like all of it. It's so beautiful, right? But so three generations ago without glyphosate, that microbiome was fine, right? Next generation, not as fine because mom doesn't have as much because she's been exposed and then it just goes on and on. And now it is catastrophic. And I would say even the families over the last 10 years, even pre-COVID, who I would, like I would say to them, you're normal. Like we're not going to have to take food out of your diet. And then like they were, one of them was ending up with like, you know, actual frank colitis from being fed. Like normal kids. Now, I know how to fix it. So I fix it. So that's fine. But, but I thought to myself, this is a problem and people don't get it. And Leonard and I were just talking about this that I would make the case that the long drain has been glyphosate, like the kindling, right? But then the gas was COVID. Because COVID decimates and like this could go into a bigger talk, but our short chain fatty acid producing bacteria, for instance, and our colon are required for successful life, I think. And so, and COVID specifically decimates those. And so, and in infants, the kind of bacteria that they need, like bifuribacter and lactobacillus and stuff, that is also being decimated both by the long thing and the short attack. And so now, I don't know what everyone else is going to do. And I don't, I'm really worried. That's very concerning to me. So that's partly why I teach about gut. Yeah. So what can we do? Like should should we be thinking about repleting some of these microbes in infant guts? Right. So, so maybe, you know, so that I think, and this is again a bigger topic than for here, but maybe I don't have the most popular agreed response to, I'm not sure, well, you know, when we give, when we give probiotics, for instance, they don't actually take up shop. Right. Yeah. So, so like you're using them a little bit more as a modulator, but I don't think people understand that, right? So, right, you know, it's a tourist. It goes in there. It spends some money, which like, you know, it doesn't set up shop. Yeah. It doesn't, it doesn't have a great, right? So, so I think if you know what you're doing, you know, you can, that can be useful in some settings, but you know, when I first looked into probiotics, um, way, way, way back, I did a deep dive because we were using it forever, like an infant, so I would use it. And, but then I looked in the peed literature and it is like 50, 50, some kids have more asthma, some kids have less asthma with it. And I thought like years and years and years and I was like, what the heck? Well, I think it depends on, um, who else is in the gut? You know, it's, it's not simple. And so, um, what I usually use, but this might be outside the scope of what like, you need to find a functional medicine dog. That's what I want to say. Yeah. If you could find a naturopath or a functional medicine dog before your pregnant to optimize your gut health, then that would be great. In fact, we just, we're starting a program. I, I think I'm so ready. Are you ready for this? Um, we're calling it preconceived, which is, um, where we take couples a year before pregnancy, before birth, right? Because I couldn't take all the babies in the world, but I needed to do something. So we're doing that. We like, talk about trauma, you know, you got to get rid of your own trauma. First, we, we do microbiome, we do toxin and it's for the man and the one because you would be shocked that like the exercise, for instance, in the mom pre pregnancy, pre pregnancy changes the metabolic health of the infant. Well, for as they become an adult. So anyway, um, I think that's really the solution is that we're going to have to clean up our gut. Oh, I'm sorry, the wit is that my tagline for my company, I'm just mostly trying to make myself or this program laugh all the time is a new position on baby making. And I just think I'm so dang witty and I made mugs and I'm giving them out to obese and, um, give mostly, I like, right? It's like you have to sit with it just for a second as a PD physician. Anyway, so I think that's the real solution. I think we have to fix the microbiomes of the women parents, right? Yeah. Before. But then, you know, what do we do? Otherwise, I think if you have a good functional medicine doc, if you have a doc who listens to Leonard and the other places where we teach, um, I use things like butirates, so I cheat. I use butirate, which is a short chain fatty acid made by happy bacteria that make our colon happy, make our brain happy, make our immune system modulated and calm. Um, you know, it's most of the food for our gut. It makes themselves happy. It sets up good shop. So I, since I, these people don't have good microbiome to make those, I give it a postbiotic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I wait. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Now there are things, you know, there's peptides and there's other things, but I would say, do whatever works for you. Um, but I think it's not as, I can't give like as easy an answer for this as I could for the, well, but I think the short answer is that if for infants A, we may need to intervene on the microbiome of an infant, whereas in the past, we would have said not so much. That's right. And that's one. And you need to find someone knowledgeable who can help you with that. And then the second one is if you have the luxury of time, yes. And you don't accidentally become pregnant and invest six months to a year in optimizing your own self before you write your before you're growing a new baby because that environment you're growing the baby and is going to have everything to do with that child's outcome. And of those microbiome would be first. Like, you know, all that detoxify and all of that. And you know, I like one thing that I want to say that's really interesting is that, you know, those of us like me used to know it and mattered to the child's microbiome, whether or not mom got antibiotics, you know, in for part, like during delivery and whether or not she was the baby was breastfed and whether or not it was C section or vaginal, right? So this is real like finally Western medicine is caught up and they talk about that, but it doesn't even matter anymore. That like truly this, that those were important when like the baseline was okay. I could see a difference in those kids, right? Now it doesn't matter. Like, I mean, it all of it matters, but it doesn't change the way the child's microbiome looks. I think it might explain also a lot of what we're seeing. Absolutely. I mean, it's, it's, you know, I don't know. It's almost hard to find a child that's not being diagnosed with some kind of issue, right? Whether it's ED, ADHD, like it just, so I think something's happening to change the way those, those children's brains are working, right? And it's got to start there. And I think the microbiome is, is got to be the place to start for sure. So if you had five minutes with every pediatrician in North America, what would you beg them to do differently? Listen, take time, and that's not, they don't have that luxury, I understand, but it's important. Celebrate the child for who they are. You know, it, actually, this is it. It's one thing. It takes one non-parental adult to make a child resilient. Remember, we talked about my childhood for a second. Like, why do I end up like this and other kids end up some other way? I had a dance teacher. She actually just passed recently who took me under her wing. We would like choreograph musicals together. And she made me feel valuable. It takes one non-parental adult. Well, guess what, every pediatrician has that. And you know what, you can be that and everyone can be that, but that pediatrician meets that kid at least once a year. You said that Karen Love are among the most effective medicines. Yes. Have you operationalized that into clinic without turning it into some kind of fluffy thing? Yeah. Well, okay. So love sometimes doesn't have to be fluffy. Sometimes it's tough love. You know, love is love is presence time. You know, you have to be present. You have to be right. And we should all do that in everything we do, right? At the grocery store. I'm present. I'm not sure I'm in love with the grocery checker, but, but I do have love for other humans, right? Yeah. And just, and so I think maybe, maybe that's how you operate, make it operational. Also, my clinic, the people I work with, we clearly love each other and they love our patients. And so that is when you walk in, it's kind of like cheered, you know, like norm because we have couches and we have coffee and tea and, you know, parents of kids who are chronically ill or adults are chronically ill, right? Because we do adults too. This is a place of comfort for them. And and what I knew was is that they give love to each other. You know, you want to know the smartest people on the planet. It's the moms of kids with autism, right? For instance, they're like my ceilium, right? They're like, they're networked. So put a bunch of those people on a bunch of couches, healing happens. I'm not even that's love. You've created an environment. Yeah. Yeah. What's the most common way that modern families accidentally train nervous system dysregulation to their kids? And how do we help them to find it? We have missed out on boredom. I love that period. Yeah. Right? Because when boredom is when we, it's when the magic happens, right? It's when it's when we create. And if we're constantly, if kids are constantly stimulated, that's not good for the nervous system. They don't know how to regulate. They don't know how to be okay. Be okay, right? They need their cup has to be full, right? So I think and that's not their fault. That is society. Like I'm I'm not pointing fingers. This is a bigger issue than those parents, for instance. But I would say that if I had one piece of advice for everyone, it's teach your children how to be bored. What to do with boredom, right? Yeah. And I think that that feeds into a conversation I had, I think it was last year with a doctor Robert Millilo, where he sounds the alarm on screens for young children. Because we're losing boredom, because there's no space for it anymore, because there's no age too young for a child to be in front of screen. And I'm not saying this from a judgment, judgment perspective. There's no judgment to I like I get the world we're in. I know and we've been given what seems to be the perfect tool to keep a child occupied at an airport in a restaurant like wherever to the case may be. And I think that it's rewiring children's brains. Absolutely. Imagine. And we're going to see it, but ways that we can't imagine. So, you know, we're going to close down now and I'm going to ask you kind of a dark question. I'm ready to get into the light. Are you worried about the human race? Do you think? I'm going to cry again. So, coming back into the light. Yeah. I want to say, you know, I am, I am, like I got really depressed for a while when I was working on that conference, because the more I realized the impact of COVID on the microbiome, that like, back to a phase thing. And like really, who I am is different because there's COVID in it. Just even like identity, right? Me and them and us, right? And I did, I had this sense that this might be the time to burn it all down and just start over. You said that. And like, actually, but then I realized the impact I was having on my staff and my family. And I realized that wasn't helpful. And so I decided, well, okay, fine. Well, we need you. Yeah. I'm pretty good at this. So, but what's the thing you think is getting is the most at risk? Is it the immune printing, the microbiome shifts, the neuroinflammation, like fertility, is it something else? You think that's that's most at risk? Yep. So those are all linked, right? Like, I don't know if you've heard Betsy and Abbot and I speak and we, and Rob and I speak. That's right. We all fight about who's most important. I'm the God, you know, and, you know, or, Abbot says it's all about the heart, you know, like, we have this. Of course, they're all linked, but I would say, probably it's the gut, okay, it goes right, affecting the immune system. And now we talk about self and not self, right? So I think auto immunity, I think, and we're just getting more and more brittle, you know, like, and there's less and less life to us. And nutrients are getting depleted, not just from the loss there, but like, you know, from inflammation, right? And, and I, again, I used to have a handful of patients like that. And now I think it's going to be everyone. That's scary. So what's the call to responsibility for clinicians over the next five to 10 years? Because we're not ending this on a dark note. There's too much white. Yeah. There's way too much light. There's way too much hope. Look at everything you've already figured out. Right. Yeah. We'll be fine. We'll be fine. So, so what's the, but what's the call to, like, if a clinician is listening to this right now, what's the call to them over the next five to 10 years? And frankly, what can they start in their clinic next week? Yeah. So the call to them, I don't even need to make because it used to be just those patients were shown in my clinic, right? But they're showing up there. They're showing up there. So it is so ubiquitous now. Unlike before, we're like my autoimmune patients or my pandas patients or my chronic Lyme patients who were called crazy or malingering or it's all in their head, those physicians that used to say that about my patients are now saying things like, you know, there's this thing that can happen after infection where there's like an immune dysregulation ongoing. You're like, okay. So, so I don't think, I think the call has been made. And COVID has actually been great for my patients because suddenly, well, hey, I had already tuned them all up so they were fine. And because they had chronic health stuff, I had to already write them. Right. So they did fine with COVID. And the call has been made. So they are showing up in their clinics and they're having to solve things that they can't solve. And they're going to have to go outside. Yeah. So I think it has to go outside. Yeah. What you what you think you know. Yeah. And start looking for answers elsewhere. Like, yes, I think it's little events that are happening. That's right. So let's give people hope here. What do we need to change to feel optimistic again? We're not alone. Yeah. Right. And I treat chronic Lyme, right. And and I realized that it was like 5,000 something years ago. They there was a mommy that they found recently. And he had spirit keats in his joints. And we have tattoos over his joints that they were using his acupuncture. And he died at 41. I think it was. I was stab wound to the back. So sit with me for a second. You know, I thought Lyme was beating up my patients. And then I realized we evolved with Lyme. And guess what? Yes. Like we had industrial revolutions. We created art. Like we, we, you know, civilizations, we made the typewriter. I don't know. You know, like all of that with Lyme. So you know, guess what? That's why I got to a place of like, okay, I wonder what we'll do with this. And, you know, I think existence finds a way that and and I think I really don't know what's going to happen next. But maybe COVID was important. Like my patients with chronic Lyme and they would be sad. The kids because they'd be out of school. And I'd have to give them all this meds. And they were missing out. And I would say to them, like, I know, like we can pout in wine today. But then let's put a big go pants on. And I promise when the zombie apocalypse comes, you can be fine because you're all turned up. Well, they were. Right. I wasn't actually meaning that we would have this apocalypse, but we did. But guess what? You know, I can't even know, you know, all I can do is show up. So I think we should show up. I think we should do what we can. What is that? Like change the wisdom or the courage to change the things I can help me with that. That's what I'm talking about. That's right. That one. So do what you can. Stop fretting about what you can't. And you know, show up. Yeah. No, absolutely. And listen, we've figured out so much. So it's been 10 minutes. Yeah. So that's the spoken thing showed up, right? And we've already come a long way. So I think that as long as we stay open and keep to stay curious, people, people like you, we are gifted with in this world will continue to find solutions. You and Betsy and Robin and you, you know, all the people. Well, I'm just sitting here and trying to shine lights in the corners to make sure that people like you get seen and heard. So all right, we're going to finish with four rapid fire questions. And then we're going to tell people where to find your stuff. One test you think is overused. Microbio. The most boring intervention that works embarrassingly well. Love. The question you wish patients asked you on day one that the patient can ask whatever they want. Yeah. What the doctor should do is listen. Yeah. And I usually ask the patient if I had a magic wand, what three things do you want? Because because I don't know, I know what I think I want to fix for them. But maybe it's that they want to be able to bend over and put their shoes on. And that's way more important than the acne all over their face. I like, I can't know. You know, and so it's easier for me to get the acne on their face better, whatever. If they're already able to be mobile in the way they wanted, which I thought wasn't as big a deal, maybe, yeah, maybe that's what support the 100%. Dr. Cynthia Keller, I knew this was going to be a fascinating conversation. It's taken us on a beautiful journey. Yeah. Thank you for your time. Please let people know where they can find you, where they can find your magic supplement. I think you even created a code that they people can use. I did buy it. I did. I think this really cool. So for people who are wanting to explore, if this replenishment supplement can make, can be with the thing that turns the lights on in a different way, where did they go, and then where do they go to learn more about you? Right. Okay. So first, I'll talk about the supplement. It's my company. I'm so pleased with the name is Alchemic Medicinals. So, okay. How do we spell that? ALCHEMIC? I see. Yeah. Medicinals, M-E-D-I-C-R-N-A-L-S. .com. And the supplement is called Trip to Fan Regenesis. And it's the only thing on that website. So it comes in capsules and the powder is about to ship. So the capsules you can get at alchemicmedicinals.com or you can get it from Lender and at New BioH. Right. Okay. Or, and both of us mostly sell it to providers. So my hope would be is that you saw a provider who had heard me speak and could help you with this. But if not, you can get that from either him or me. And then the powder is just at me, just at mine. You know, kids, I needed to create something that kids could also have. But also it's five pills a day now. And that is a lot for adults. So, and it tastes pretty good. I mean, it's not, you know, it was hard to make Trip to Fan taste good, but it does ish mostly. And that you can get from my site only. And that's the one we made a code for. And the promo code is nat rocks. So N-A-T-R-O-C-K-S. And yeah, thank you. And I like honestly did not want to be a salesman. I just want to get this thing out there. So we're going to offer 50% off on the powder since I can't, I can't offer that on something that other providers sell. And because that's not fair, right? But I can do it on the thing that only I have. And so just in, I have 500, my first 500 powder shipping to my dis or warehouse yesterday. And so until all 500 gone, your people can have this code. And I hope they can get their family members better and their friends better. And yeah. Thank you. Well, I will have to see how fast we can push this episode out. But we'll do our best. Now, where else can people go to learn more about Dr. Cynthia Geller, Keller and your work? That's a great question. So I used to try to fly under the radar, right? Because I was doing weird stuff and really... Not anyone who asked me out. I know. I'm a member of longevity docs. And I speak for them. I'm on scientific board for a new biohage that we've talked about with Leonard. So I teach through him. I occasionally get invited other places. But my clinic is centered in wellness. And we weren't taking new patients really for 11 years. But we have found some ways. I do occasionally doc to doc consults. And also, if there's a patient, I think I could fix easily. And I don't think anyone else can fix it, fix the wrong word. And it's one of my things. And I'm like, this would be easy for me. But it's hard to teach someone else how to do that. We'll sometimes take them on for six months. I can't have another lifetime relationship because I'm full, right? But I can do that. And so we've done that some. Yeah. Well, you're definitely going to have to start that doc to doc. Yeah, I know. I do that. Actually, that's one of my biggest passions, right? Because it's sowing seeds. I'm making new gardeners. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure, you can only be one gardener. All right. So centered in wellness.com. Yeah. That's right. And for the powder, it's alchemych medicinal medicinal.com medicinal. Yeah. Medicinals. And Nat rocks will get you 50% off the powder for as long as you have some left. Okay. Amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you. It's been a beautiful conversation. I so appreciate it. Yeah. It was really fun. And I'm grateful for the work that you do. Hey, folks, just a quick reminder that all of the information presented in this podcast is for information purposes only no medical advice, no diagnosing, no treatments suggested here. Before you try anything that you hear about or learn about here, make sure that you check with your medical provider.