Harvard Business School Professor on Building Trust, Reducing Regret, and the Underrated Power of Oversharing | Leslie John

This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello my fellow suffering beings, how we doing today. Many of us quite justifiably worry about oversharing. There's a reason why we use the expression TMI, too much information. But today you're going to hear a Harvard Business School professor make the case very convincingly in my opinion that the real danger is TLI, too little information. There are, she says, steep costs to staying bottled up. It can have all sorts of negative health implications. Conversely, there are immense benefits to self-disclosure. Even if it's scary, there are huge benefits, both physiological and psychological. Of course, then the question is how do you do it successfully and strategically without oversharing. And we're going to get into that in a very big way today. We're going to get super practical for you. My guest is Leslie John. She's the James E. Burke professor of business administration at the Harvard Business School. She's got a new book and it's called revealing the underrated power of oversharing. In this conversation, we talk about why self-disclosure can feel risky, but is often extremely rewarding socially and psychologically. We also talk about psychic and somatic costs of keeping secrets. How putting feelings into words can reduce both rumination and anxiety. Why validation is often more helpful than advice. Why undersharing leads to missed opportunities in relationships, work and life, and much more. Real quick, before we dive in, a reminder to check out my new app. It's called 10% with Dan Harris. We've got a growing body of meditations from many of the world's greatest teachers. We also do these amazing weekly live video meditation and Q&A sessions. We meditate for a couple of minutes and then we chop it up. And it's really a great chance for you to get your meditation questions answered. Not just about technical meditation stuff, but also about how to apply it to your life. 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It brings your entire financial life, budgeting, account, and investments, net worth, and future planning. All of that together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. I can tell you from vast personal experience what a relief it is to have all the information in one place. It just reduces my sense of frenzy. Feel aware and in control of your finances this year and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code Happier. Monarch has done some surveys of their users and the results are pretty impressive. Monarch helped users save over $200 a month on average after joining, and eight out of 10 members feel more in control of their finances while using Monarch. Set yourself up for financial success in 2026 with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes proactive money management simple all year long. Use the code Happier at Monarch.com for half off your first year that's 50% off your first year at Monarch.com using the code Happier. Leslie John, welcome to the show. Hi, thanks for having me. Pleasure to have you here. I am always curious, I feel like a bit of a fraud or I feel a bit unoriginal for always asking this question at the beginning, especially when I'm talking to people like you who are real researchers who go deep on a subject, but I'm going to do it anyway, which is so here I go with the unoriginal question, why this subject? I'm curious how you got here. It was a journey. It was a combination of what I was seeing in data, but also it was my own personal life, what was happening, and part of it was a disconnect. So as a baby academic, when I first started my research journey, I was studying kind of the mistakes we make in opening up like how online we overshare. For example, the Virgin flight attendants that vented about their employer and got fired based on what they posted. So all of these things we do online and we get ourselves in trouble. We literally would stand in front of thousands of people giving talks saying, no, no, no, we're sharing too much. But then my personal life, I was keeping it suppressed and separate from the professional life, but then in my personal life, it could no longer ignore the fact that I was kind of a card carrying oversharer. Like I love taking those Buzzfeed quizzes to my encryption. I have spoiled surprise parties before. I do all kinds of things that are foolish with respect to like my online privacy. But I also had a lot of fun doing it. Like I have fun filling out Buzzfeed quizzes. So there was this disconnect, this increased dissonance of like what I was saying in my professional life. And then personally, I was experiencing these joys of disclosure and being kind of reckless. And so that got me really interested in how what the upside might be to revealing. And when I looked at my research, you know, at that point, it was about 10 years of research. When I looked at it from that perspective, I thought, well, yeah, we make mistakes online. That's not wrong, but it's not right because the one single thing that was coming across in my work, if I put it all together was that when I made people feel safe and put them into space that was maybe fun or safe, they were overwhelmingly happy to share and happy to do it. So there were several different studies, some of my own and some that others did that really, really changed my mind on that that really popped like wow, there's a lot of upside that we're not capturing. Tell me about those studies. So for me, the study that changed everything was a thought experiment, I ran. So listeners, if you suppose you're in this little thought experiment, let me ask you this, imagine that you're choosing between two different people to date or two different suitors. And you talk to one of them and you ask them, have you ever had any STDs? Now, I know that that's not going to be your opener. I'm boiling this way down for you because you're busy people. But like you get to this question, whenever you do, that's a whole other story. But you ask, so have you had any STDs? And the person says, I have had so many STDs, I can't even count. So then the other suiter, you ask the same question and they say, I'm not answering. And so we put people in this super awkward choice. Now, admittedly, as my father would say, neither of these is exactly a fine specimen. So like, you'd rather not date either of them. But if you had to choose, who would you choose? And again and again, we found that people preferred begrudgingly, but nonetheless, they preferred the revealer. The person who admits to the worst possible thing, relative to the person who simply stays mom. And we found it with thousands of different people, different contexts. Another one is, if you're deciding who to hire, would you rather hire someone who, on the application, they admitted to having had really bad grades or the person who opts out of answering? In that situation, 89% of people prefer the revealer. And so these kind of jaw-dropping results to me made me think, well, why? Why are we doing this? And what I realized is that the person who doesn't reveal, like the person who holds back in a really salient way, we don't trust them. We view them with contempt so much so that we'd rather date someone, hire someone who says the worst possible thing relative to someone who just keeps mom. And now the person who says, I'm not answering the SD question, they could just be like saying, look, that's not cool. That's not a cool question. And so then I dug even further into this, okay, trust. Why? Why is it that we distrust hiders? And why do we trust revealers? And what I realized is that opening up, sharing something sensitive is a really key way we build trust with others because we're relinquishing control to the universe and we're saying, we're implicitly saying, I trust you to not make a fool out of me. And so when we show we trust others in this way, it causes them to like us and trust us. And when you think about it, trust, it's really the currency of social relationships. And as heard creatures, it's an incredibly important thing. That was one. Then there was another study that is kind of real science. I shouldn't joke about my own discipline, behavioral science. I love my job. We get to put people into these strange, but illuminating situations, many thought experiments. So this was a neuroscience study. So a hard science. They put people into a brain scanner because they wanted to see what areas of their brain were activated when they did different things. The key thing was what happens when they give people an opportunity to reveal to answer questions about themselves, to self-disclose. And what they found was that relative to when they don't get to share personal information, the ones who get to reveal the pleasure centers of their brain lit up, so to speak, were activated, right? So it suggests that self-disclosure is intrinsically rewarding and motivating. So it seems like it's fundamentally important. It's the same area as activated when you have sex. So it's really core. And then the third study that really blew my mind was, this was a study that I actually only encountered as I was writing the book. And it's an old study. It's an oldie buddy, goodie, or baddie to hang on how upsetting the result is to you. But in this study, what they did was they videotaped preschoolers as they were watching a scary video. And they videotaped their faces, and then they also measured how sweaty their palms were. So this is called in psychology, a galvanic skin response, essentially, how physiologically stressed you are, right? Because when you stress your palms and your fingertips get sweaty. And what they found was that the children who revealed a lot in their faces who let it out, what they were feeling, they were very expressive in their faces, they were actually less physiologically stressed. So letting it out seemed to make you less stressful. So that's pretty awesome. But the tricky thing is that by the time these children reached kindergarten age, my eldest is that age, I have two boys, there were gender differences. The boys had started to hold back. So the boys had kind of learned, right? This cultural to-be-stoic in that males don't show emotion. And so they end up being more physiologically stressed. So that really, really shook me as a boy, mom. I have struggled with that so much. It's hurt my relationships, but it's hurt my relationship to myself to be the words that have been used to describe me are emotionally guarded. And yeah, I do think I pick that up. From the culture. I have a very clear memory of being with a bunch of buddies in seventh grade. We're a horse and a round with a lacrosse ball. And I got hit in the head and I cried and everybody mocked me so hard that I think I just decided like, I'm never going to let myself get into that position again. Yeah, totally. Now, here's hoping that things are changing. I like to say, just like to say, every parent screws up their kids in a different way. The goal is to not screw your kids up in the same way that your parents did. Although I did have a very happy childhood. So my kids, I'm always saying to them, I think I may be overcracked and I'm saying, how do you feel? Tell me how you feel. It's okay. How you feel? Let's work through it. Like I'm maybe too aggressively tell me how you feel. But times are changing. I do think I hope so that it's becoming more okay. And in fact, surveys show that if you ask men, do you think you should share more? Do you wish you shared more? A little more than half say, yes, I wish I shared more. So there seems to be a recognition or motivation at least. Let me back up a little bit because you said a lot there is great. Oh, I'll just throw in one random thing that I was just laughing about in my head that I'll just get it out and let it out. When you were talking about STDs, I was remembering there was a pamphlet at the Colby College Health Center in the early 90s. Yup. And the title was, Klamydia is not a flower. It sounds like a flower, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. I always thought it was hilarious at not Klamydia, the pamphlet. Are you going to ask a question or are you saying more on the story? I was going to ask a question, but go ahead. Okay, good, because sorry. Because I wanted to get in my funny STD story, which is it's so funny because it goes right back to college too. So for me, I went to the college, the health center, and I wanted to get an STD test. So I go there, I walk in and wonderfully, they have a form there where you don't have to say, you know, it's a busy waiting room. The nurse asks you, you don't have to say what your problem is, you fill out the form, which is a godsend, right? So I'm like, you have this privacy in front of everyone. I'm filling out the form. I would like an STD test. Well, I thought I was through, but then when it was my turn to go back, the nurse, big clipboard, Leslie John here for STD test. Oh my God. You are so close to getting it right of the VA rule design of this. So the lesson is disclosure feels good, but not when somebody else does it for you. In some ways, yes. When it's something that's really embarrassing and stigmatizing, you want to have control over your story, right? Yeah, that was, I mean, I lived through it. We all lived through embarrassing things, but yeah. So like I said, I do want to go back a little bit and I, and what I think is the order of operations logically that you follow in your book called revealing. So in revealing, you talk about the fact that we as humans tend to prefer sins of omission to sins of commission. In other words, we think even though your data is showing that other people will trust us more if we reveal in the right way and we'll get to the right way eventually. But we tend to think it's better to keep a lid on things. Why? Yes. Well, when we do think about whether to open up, when we do think about whether to share, the number one thing we think of is the risk of revealing. We fixate on the risks of revealing. And then we stop there. We just stop there. We stop risk of revealing. And, you know, there's plenty of risks of revealing. The problem though, there's a few problems. One is that we overestimate the risks of revealing. So there's a cognitive bias, which your listeners may already be familiar with. You probably talked about it before called impact bias, which is that we overestimate how long we're going to feel badly when something bad happens. So yeah, we've all had the embarrassing moments. And then we cringe afterwards. But you know what? The cringy feeling goes away. But we want to avoid that feeling so much because we forget that it goes away. And what we don't consider, meanwhile, we don't consider the costs of keeping mom. We don't consider, if we don't say what's on our mind, like if a colleague keeps showing up late for meetings and it's really bothering us and we just keep letting it go, one, they won't change probably. But two, it consumes our mind, not saying something is a very active thing, right? We get annoyed, we ruminate. That's annoying. It's bad for our wellbeing. And then it often seeps out in other ways with passive aggression, with testiness or with avoidance, right? So I want us to realize that not saying the thing is a choice and it's a choice that has consequences just like saying the thing. It's a choice that has consequences just like saying the thing. So on a physiological level, what are those consequences of not saying the thing? Yeah, yeah. And actually on both sides, like what are the benefits of self-disclosure and the costs of staying home? Right. Well, so many, if we were to think of something like a secret you're keeping, the costs of that are rumination, mental load, and actually in studies where people are asked to keep a secret. So even as simple as like, don't say the word white elephant. And then you get an IQ test. Your IQ actually temporarily decreases. You become less intelligent when your mind is preoccupied. And then because of the mind body connection, there also been studies showing that people who chronically keep secrets, they have lower well-being, like they get sick more often and so on. On the flip side, if you have, there's amazing studies of, for example, these are old school classic studies by James Pennebreaker, where he randomizes people with HIV to write a diary about their thoughts and feelings or to not do that. He draws blood and they measures the health of their blood and sure enough when people open up even to themselves, it has this physiological benefit. There's lots of reasons why, but the other side of it is when you say the thing that's on your mind, you often fail to anticipate the benefits of saying it. And so one thing that I like to do when I'm trying to help people think through disclosure decisions better, what's a disclosure decision? That's even a new thing, right? It's the decision to reveal or not. What I do is I say, okay, what are you thinking about? So you're thinking about something. I'm thinking about a really big meeting that I have coming up and I'm stressed about it, okay? So I'm thinking about it. It's not like a secret meeting or anything. I'm not even keeping a secret. I'm just like worrying about it in my mind. So I'm worrying and when you worry in your mind, you kind of loop around and sometimes like me or you think catastrophically, you imagine bad things, it's all in your head. It's all in your head. Now, suppose you were to write down just for yourself, write down on paper the things that are bothering you that you're worried about this meeting. Just write down what's in your head, write it down on paper. You would think that that shouldn't really make a difference. That's just whether it's in my head or on paper, it's the same thing. However, it's fundamentally different because when you put feelings and thoughts into words on paper or spoken, that forces a kind of logic and a kind of structure. So the logical part of it is transforming thoughts into language engages the prefrontal cortex part of your brain. So it engages the more logical part of your brain, just doing that. And then secondly, when you put feelings and thoughts into words, whether you're speaking to yourself, writing down, you naturally give a story structure to it because human beings are really good at making stories. So you naturally kind of narrate and impose a story structure to it in a way that you wouldn't if you were just circling in your brain, right? And stories have a beginning, a middle in the end. The end might not be a happily ever after, but there's a sense to it. The process of making a story of your swirling thoughts and feelings imposes a kind of sense and certainty. So it gets rid of that uncertainty of things swirling and now you have more concreteness, more certainty, and we all know that uncertainty is such a huge source of anxiety, but now you've made things much more concrete and certain and you can deal with it. You can cope with it better. And that's just if nobody's listening. Now, if you have a friend, someone who cares about you, a spouse, a loved one, if you have someone there listening to you, that takes the whole thing up a notch. Because number one, you do it better. You are better at translating your feelings into words because there's an audience there, right? So you take it more seriously, but more importantly, that person can react. And I'm gonna just give you the quick result here, because you know, we academics, there's a bajillion variants on the studies here, but the finding is that when someone listens to you, the number one thing they can do to make you feel better, increase your wellbeing, decrease rumination, make hard things more manageable is to validate you. They don't even need to agree with you. They can just say, I hear you. That sounds like it's really hard. Things like that, that's a kind of validation. And just hearing that is so comforting. The second thing, the next little ninja thing. So validation is huge. Just if you can do one thing when you're listening to your spouse validate, but secondly, scientists have also tested different things that your spouse, partner, friend, therapist can say. So there's different categories. For example, bright siding would be like saying, trying to emphasize the bright side, the positive. There's another, it would be trying to say, well, maybe that person that you're arguing with, maybe they didn't feel the same way, trying to get the person who's venting to you to take perspective. And then the third thing they tested is the old, with time things will heal. This too shall pass. And out of those, the thing that was most soothing to people is this too shall pass, which reminded me of when I, before our first baby, people are very wonderfully and overwhelmingly happy to give advice. And I remember that my dear cousin Sue, she said, I'm only going to say one thing. The one thing I'm going to say, and I want you to say it out loud, is this too shall pass. And I thought it was kind of silly at the time, but I literally said that out loud when our baby was screaming in the middle of the night and I'm like bobbing around trying to calm down. So it's really powerful stuff. And I say this also because I'm an academic, so I'm a professional skeptic. And you know, it sounds good. Open up, share your feelings. But I really wanted to do it because I wanted to see, and doing is believing. And I really can say that the science stands up. I use myself as a guinea pig. I want to get into your personal experiences in a second. And of course, I want to get into the how of the successful strategic disclosure. But just on the study, you just referenced about the three options, bright siding, this too shall pass. And then what was the second trying to get the person to take perspective? Oh, cognitive empathy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, perspective cognitive empathy. I feel like it was missing one thing. The best option, which is that sucks. Oh, yeah. I love that one. And I wish they had tested that one. That would also make a great title of a paper. I think that that sucks. To me, that sounds like validation, right? Yes, it's validation. Yep, that sucks. So yes, Dan, number one thing. You're intuition, that sucks. And it's so helpful. In fact, a friend of mine, I write about her in the book. She's almost completely lost her eyesight. And I asked her, you know, what should people say to you? What's the most comforting thing? And she said, that sucks is the best thing. She said, when I go to my doctor's appointments, I love it because I feel so wonderful. She's like, I know, this is weird. I go to the doctor and every time I go, they tell me that my eyesight is worsening. Yet I love going because they're not trying to sugarcoat things. They're not trying to distract me. They just acknowledge, yeah, that sucks. We're going to help you however we can. But that sucks. And just feeling understood like that is incredibly powerful. The greatest gift you can give people in it doesn't cost anything. Completely. So if I were to sum up the research that you've shared, and I'm going to sum it up with your words, the real problem, as you say, isn't TMI too much information. It's TLI, too little information. It goes against a lot of our intuitions, but the science is clear. Does that sound like an apt summary? Yes. Coming up, Leslie John talks about how many disclosure-related decisions we make every day without realizing it. Why not saying the thing can lead to rumination and resentment, a rule of thumb for sharing, and how undersharing can quietly undermine relationships. You know what? I'm a big believer in life insurance. Earlier in my life, I didn't think about it that much because I didn't have any dependence, but now that I have a wife and a child, life insurance is extremely important to me. I want to make sure that if anything happens to me, that my family has taken care of. Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done today. It's made for busy parents, and it's all online on your schedule right from your couch. You can be covered in under 10 minutes with no health exam required. 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And I'm sure they can interpolate back through their lives and think about the times when they've done it and they felt better. But how do you know what to reveal and when? Yeah, I know. That's the big question. So revealing is not something we're born good at or bad at. I think of revealing as a skill and something that we can all get better at. And so as a skill, it's something that we need to practice and experiment with. I think the very first thing that we can do to do this better is actually realize just how many disclosure decisions we are actually making without realizing it every day. So let me just quick, like a day in the life, okay. This is like an ordinary day, a day in the life of disclosure decisions. Okay, you wake up, you roll over to your partner in bed, you say I love you, okay, you say that. But then you don't say I slept like crap. I'm really miserable. I might be short today. You don't say that. You stand in front of the mirror, you're both brushing your teeth. What you think to yourself is, I look okay, but just okay. I really didn't think I would feel this old at this age. You just think that, you don't say it. You go downstairs, your kids are frolicking, your spouse is, I have small children, so they're packing the lunches, they say to you, hey, what should I put in for snack? You say, I don't know, just make the decision. And then you're kind of in an argument. But what you don't say is, look, I really need a hug because I'm exhausted and when I'm tired, I have a hard time regulating my emotions, right? It's never about the stupid snacks. I mean, I could go on and on, but you can see that there's so many things that are unsaid. And in each of those examples, I bet you, I mean, the old me, I wouldn't have even considered the possibility of opening up more. But you can see already in this tiny example that the problems that arise when we don't open up, like when I don't tell my spouse that I had a really crappy sleep and that I'm gonna be short and then I'm gonna need a little more space, we get into these tips because he can't read my mind, right? And so I think the number one thing, as we're getting into the how-to, is like realize, make visible what's typically invisible. Realize all of the times you're not saying the thing. Now this is not to say we should always say the thing, right? For good reason, we do not want everyone to say everything that's always on their mind. Like you get to work that day or assist it, says how you doing, you say great, you don't say, I'm overwhelmed, I got to get big meeting, you don't say that appropriately, right? But then if your bestie comes into your office and says what's on tap and you just say, I'm really excited for this meeting and you don't say I'm also nervous and hey, maybe you can help me practice the beginning of it, right? You can see that like your opportunities to develop personally, to experience joy, have stronger relationships, those are being held back because you're not saying the thing. So number one is realizing the opportunities. Just to reflect back to your point, stoicism, not in the sense of the Greco-Roman philosophy, but as we modern understand it, like this kind of closed off, walled off, self-sufficient, individualistic, factory setting that many of us have, is actually a losing strategy because you're denying yourself the resources that are all around you if people actually have access to your inner life. Right, exactly. And you're denying yourself many other things, right? When a life of undersharing is a life of missed opportunities, it's a life of friendships that never blossom, it's a life of colleagues who, I'm being dramatic here, but these are all symptoms of undersharing. Colleagues that never quite trust you, romance is that never spark relationships that fade apart instead of deepening. One of the things that, when you ask, how do I decide what to share and what not to share? One super basic rule of thumb is to go one layer deeper than you ordinarily would. So what does that look like? Well, imagine you're watching your kids play soccer and there's another parent beside you and you're making small talk, which we all hate small talk. It's small talk kind of gives us the illusion of connection, right? There's things of real connection. There's like smiling and eye contact and shared reality, but without the risk, without the depth, without the sharing and vulnerabilities. These kind of small talk situations leave us feeling really socially tired, but emotionally not nourished. So how do you know what to share? What does it mean to share one level more in that setting? Okay, it's this simple setting. What you could do is instead of commenting on what is happening or what happened like, hey, the kids are smiling, the kids are having fun. Take it one level deeper and comment on the meaning of it, what it means to you. So say, for example, the kids are smiling, you know, I don't even remember the last time I laughed. I don't even remember the last time I had a really, really great gut laugh. And then you can take it even further if you really want connection, you could say to the person beside you, what about you? And ask them a question and there you're off to the races, but to answer your question of how do you know what to share? One, you got to experiment. There's no right or wrong. And when you experiment, you get a better feel for it. But as a rule of thumb, one thing you can do is to kind of go one level deeper than you might think you should. Hmm. And then the bonus move is once you've pushed your comfort zone a little bit and gone a click deeper than you normally would and in whatever the context is, you can, and I'm not sure what the right term for this meet, you may have a term in your book that I'm forgetting. You can then ask an appropriately probing question of your conversation partner. Exactly. And that's really how friendships, relationships, colleagueships begin true ones, right? It's by this back and forth. It's not necessarily in one session, but over time, the back and forth of gradually deepening self-disclosure. Now people do this fairly naturally. Like one thing I often say, I teach a lot of executives, I teach negotiation a lot and they're like, well, yeah, Professor John, you tell me I need to get information from them. I need to know their stance, but what if they don't say anything? What if they're not revealing? And I say, well, revealing gets revealing. If you share something, share your values, share your interests, it's almost instinctual for them to share back. But if they don't, you can always ask them a question. That kind of gets to a key thing here, which is context. We just jumped from standing on the sidelines of a school. I know, it's a negotiation. Yeah, and so that's not a critique. It's just this feels highly context dependent. Yes, it is highly, highly context dependent. I think that the people that are best at doing this, that are the most skilled at revealing, they're not the ones that always share and they're not the ones that are always reserved. They have the greatest disclosure flexibility. It's the people that can go from extremely open, like with your life partner, like super open, to being extremely reserved and guarded, like in a very competitive context, for example. So it's knowing how to maneuver in between. And it starts with self-awareness. It starts with understanding your own internal state and understanding your own goals. So sometimes when people are chronically reserved, when they under share, there's two reasons. One reason is that they don't know how they feel. They're not in tune with their inner self enough. The other is, like my husband, he's super in tune with his inner self, but he's just a very reserved person. He has kind of a different threshold for revealing than I do. He's the end of my yang. But it starts with self-awareness. And then part of that is understanding what's the goal? What am I trying to achieve? Why might I reveal? And there's lots of different reasons why you might reveal. But thinking through, what's your purpose here? What's your, are you trying to vent? Are you trying to get social support? If that's the answer, then you're gonna choose one context and one person. You're gonna make it a really intimate place with an intimate person. Or is it because you want to share your story to influence change? That would be something I call a catalyst confession where a leader reveals something really sensitive because they want to maybe destigmatize something. Like the classic example there being Magic Johnson. The day he retired from the Lakers, he said, I mean, you can watch it on YouTube, it gives me goosebumps every time. He says, I'm retiring effective today because I've contracted HIV. And you can tell he's really nervous. And that is a catalyst confession in the sense that it spurred positive change. There have been studies that have looked at in the years after that. So pre-magic confession post, it spurred at least 900 more people to get tested, right? So the point is there's so many different goals of revealing, and you gotta think through, what's your goal? Because that answers then the question of when, how to whom, and so on. That makes a ton of sense. And I believe in the book you refer to it as interrogating your why. And so if your question is, how do I know what to reveal? And when a great compass would be, what's your goal? Yeah. And so if your goal and your marriage or your whatever romantic configuration you've got is a healthier relationship, well, then the sky's the limit in that context. If you're in a harsh negotiation with shit bags on the other side of the table, then your goal is gonna be to, I think if you've got your head about you, your goal is gonna be to arrive at the best deal possible for all sides. So then your decisions about what to disclose and when will all be downstream from that? Right, right. All of that is true. I would also say that my colleagues and I have tested kind of what's the line? You wanna know what's the line between TMI and TLI. And I can't give you a clear answer because the line is of course always moving because it depends on context. But what I can tell you is we've tested all kinds of circumstances, like a super contentious negotiation, a leader introducing themselves to new colleagues, someone on a date. And in all of those situations, going a little bit further than you think you should is advantageous to the negotiation, to getting close. Like we even go to the level of in one study, we have managers and companies come up with like a little self-introduction, say, okay, you're gonna introduce yourself to new employees, write down what you'd say about yourself. And when people do that, they only say their strengths. But then what we do is we did a series of studies where we had employees watch a video of a manager, one of a few different videos. In one, the manager said, expressed a weakness, said, I'm a little bit nervous at public speaking. Then in the next version, we took it a little further. I'm a little bit nervous about public speaking, sometimes my mouth gets dry. And the third version, I'm a little nervous about public speaking, sometimes my mouth gets dry and I get full on panic attacks. Okay, so these three versions. And we're like, what's the tipping point? At what point do you think this person is incompetent? And the line is further than you think. The first, when they say, I'm a little nervous about public speaking, people still, they're really motivated to work for the person because they're being forthcoming. But the question is, does it decrease their competence? Nope, it doesn't. They still think they're competent. Even the second level there, I'm nervous about public speaking, sometimes my mouth gets dry. People still are like, yeah, this is still a competent leader. So you would think that you shouldn't say any of this, but the first two levels, actually, they build trust, all of these build trust, because they're revealing sense of information. The question is, as a leader, when is it undermining of your competence? Only the third one, when you say, okay, that's TMI, I get full on panic attacks. That's diminishing of your competence. But the reason I give this example is that we've done studies like in all courts of context, you can see the line is a little further than you think. It's funny I've built my whole career on having panic attacks. I know. I don't wanna, I don't wanna trigger anything, sorry to make a light of it. But I've been wanting to talk to you for so long because I feel like for every, I peed myself on stage, story, I've lots of embarrassing stories in my book. I'm like, I don't know that I can top that. It's so real and I just love the way you grew from it and made a career out of it in a way. It's really admirable. I appreciate that. I have to say, I stumbled on it. I remember the moment when I decided to include the panic attack story. I can remember what I was looking at. I had decided years before that I was gonna write a book about meditation because I got an interest in it and I had read a bunch of books and they were all extremely annoying and I just had this entrepreneurial feeling that I could write something that might appeal to skeptics and there were many more skeptics at this point than there are now because this was back in like, 08 or 09 when I was coming to the decision to write this book and I wrote a bunch of bad versions of the book and they were mostly sort of like how to books and I have this memory of just sitting at the desk in our then apartment. The feedback I was getting was that you should make this more of a story and I thought, oh, maybe I'll tell the story of how I had a panic attack because that is what got me to meditation. And my instinct wasn't, I'm gonna make a catalyst confession. My instinct was how do I make this interesting? I wasn't really trying to be brave. I was just trying to find a way to get people interested and then when I put it out or shortly before I put it out when I started to panic about the fact that I was putting it out, I realized, well, this is actually either very brave or very stupid but what I have found is that people love you if you make a confession the right way. Yeah, the right way totally. Preach, I mean, it's interesting because as I wrote the book, I kind of fancy myself an overshare because, you know, in the book I have a lot of self-deprecating funny stories about myself but as I wrote the book, so I was chapter three, I'm like, I need a story of someone that was undersharing, they didn't realize it and then they did and then their life changed. So I'm looking for a story because I realized like this book is gonna be boring if I just study one. The story's really bringing to life and it was litter in the middle of the night that I realized, oh my God, this is me. There is something that I, a secret, something I knew about my mom that deeply affected me, my life course that I had felt a lot of rage about it and I'd been keeping the secret for 10 years and it was literally not until I was writing the book that I realized the impact of this had on me and my life and my relationship. And then I'm like, I can't not talk to my mom about this because I will be a complete hypocrite. I wasn't thinking about writing about it. I just was like, I need to do this. So then I told her and it was one of the most meaningful conversations certainly with my mom, possibly of my life. And then I did end up writing, you know, I talked to her and then it was a whole level of like, wow, to make this point, the person who studies sharing, who studies under sharing herself, didn't realize she was trapped in it until she was literally writing a book about it. Did you reveal in the book what the thing was about your mother that you hadn't shared? I did, I did. Well, you didn't say it here. Yeah, it's so meta. Yeah, no, I mean, it's like, anything in the book, you know, you put a book out into the world and I've had many conversations with my mom and my family. Like, the most important thing is that we've talked about it and that we've grown from it and like, I am closer than ever with my mom. But then she said, you know, I'm 75 years old. Who the hell cares? It's nothing to be ashamed of. I want people to know. And I know you care a lot about this and I think it's gonna be great. So I did it. Okay, so what's the story? So the month before my first marriage, I had second thoughts. I called my mom the month before and I said, Mom, what should I do? I really love him, but I just don't feel like I want to rip his clothes off, attract it to him. I don't think I said it like that to my mom, but you know, and my mom said, you know, you know, she was kind, she said, it's funny because the month before I married your father, I also had second thoughts. I enjoyed my flirtations with other men, as she would say. And I felt like such a wave of relief because I'm like not a weirdo. And then she said, obviously she went ahead with it. She said, I am so glad that I went ahead with it. I mean, my parents have a wonderful life together, wonderful marriage. She said, look at what we have. And she said, I know you, you're indecisive. You have the mature kind. The like super physical love that kind of goes away fast, but you have the most important thing. So I felt really assured. She's like, do what you feel is right, but this is my perspective. And so I was liberated and I got married and I had a wonderful day and it was all great and then but it was not all great. So five years later I was divorced. And once I was divorced, it was all over. I came across an email from my brother. He forwarded it to me. He said, hey, let's check this out. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, indeed. It was an email between my mom and father privately at the very bottom of the email. They had added my brother because he does their finances at the very bottom of the email. The very first when I was just between my mom and my dad, they were talking about my mom going to a lover's house and my dad obviously knew about it. And it's like one of these things you can't unsee, right? It was so shocking to me. And my body filled with rage when I found that out because I immediately went back to this faithful phone call and I thought, I only knew half the truth. My mom undershared with me. If she had told me the whole thing, the whole way that their marriage works, I would never have married this guy. So it felt like undersharing telling half the story was worse than saying nothing at all. Well, then the years I tempered down, I did marry the love of my life as she says is to say. And you know, I realized like it was more me, what's my mom's supposed to say? It's a month before the wedding, like what she's supposed to do. I'm the one that married him, it's all on me. But I did have this secret. She didn't know that I knew this about her and I'd always felt really, really, it was a big wedge between us. So I brought it up to her, literally as I was writing the book. I had a conversation with her and she said, you know, I've always wondered if I said the right thing. And it was just like the most loving, wonderful, we talked about so many things and we achieved this new level of understanding and yeah. I hear that story makes me like your mom a lot, honestly. Not a lot of levels. She's the best. Did you mention before that you peed yourself on stage? I think you made a quick reference to that. I did. 10 minutes ago and I've had a little mental note in my mind of like come back to that. Oh, it's so funny. In college, I acted in a play, the visit of the old lady, Friedrich Dionmat, the Abezouk de Andamit. It was in German and I played, there's this school teacher who is very, very, very uptight and schoolteachery, like serratipical. And there's a scene where she lets loose and she gets super drunk in a bar. And in that scene, I got really into it and I had this bottle of vodka water and I was wearing a dress with thin pantyhose and all of a sudden like everyone's laughing so hard that I just peed myself like a waterfall and I was so nervous that people would see the like, oh my, just the waterfall coming between my legs, in my mind, I'm like, it's like gushing, gushing. But then for whatever reason in that moment, I thought it would be a good idea to try to cover it up by diluting it, by throwing the vodka, so I'm throwing the vodka, the water everywhere on stage. So that's by peeing on stage, sorry. But I told it. So when I was a grad student, this was maybe, I don't know, eight years after that event, it was late at night, I was at a conference party, we were sitting around with mostly junior people but a few super fancy grand Puba academics. So people that you really want them to know who you are and you wanna impress them. And someone had the idea of, hey, let's go around the circle and share our most embarrassing story ever. And so most people resorted to these like humble brags such as, oh my God, there was a typo in my abstract. Oh, but I, I may have been drinking because it was not a strategic choice, although knowing what I know now, I would have done it again in a heartbeat, but I decided to go for it and share my actually most embarrassing story, which I've now also shared with you in the book. And so the next day I just had the worst, it was a disclosure hangover, right? It was that gut-wrenching post-reveal rumination of what did I do. But then the thing is, the two super fancy schmatz professors, they became some of my closest friends. I got the job at Harvard in part because one of the guys there, we became very, very good friends. I call him, he's my academic big brother. And it wasn't in spite of that. It was, I think, partly because of it. And that's some of the things like, yeah, it sucked in the short term, but in the long run, like getting a bit edgy sometimes, it makes people trust you and like you, and it's fun. Hahaha. Yes, and it is a risk. And I think if you're gonna take the risk, you have to be okay with the fact that it might not work. Completely. And I've certainly made, you know, Colin, my hubby is the end of my yang because I remember when I was first pregnant in a spirit of joy and transparency, whatever that means, I decided to tell our landlord. And then it led to a series of things that basically required us to move out. Because I think it was something to do with, there's lead paint and we could force them to deled and the landlord knew this and I didn't, because I'm clueless and so they just like, kind of kicked us out. These things can bite you for sure. It's not like we should always share everything, but I encourage people to try a little bit, just go a little bit further than you think you should and see what happens. What's the best way to do it? Coming up Leslie talks about some practical principles of disclosure, some down to earth guidance for difficult conversations, and why sharing your feelings is linked to having fewer regrets later in life. Let me ask you at some terms I believe are you in your book, the Goldilocks principle? Mm-hmm. Yeah, so that refers to not too much, not too little, just too right. And the amount of disclosure that you want that is appropriate in any given situation, you can go over, which is TMI, you could go under, which is TLI. And the point is the line is always changing. So one of my favorite stories with that is, so it was Miss Universe 1997. I love beauty pageants. I know they're super misogynistic and terrible in many ways, but they're also super fascinating. And so in Miss Universe 1997, the three people at the end, there's three contestants, and what it boils down to is the final question, right? Which is super dreaded by the contestants, because it's very anxiety inducing, right? Random question in front of all these people that's really important, scary, but very entertaining. The question was, if you could do anything for one day, what would it be? The first contestant, she says, I would magically fly from place to place and travel. That was TLI, right? There was no real vulnerability, not the most original, that's TLI. One of the other three candidates said, I would not wear clothes. And that was TMI, because a conservative beauty pageant crowd is like, whoa, whoa, whoa. But then, Goldilocks, Miss USA, of course, Miss USA, I just became an American citizen, so I'm very... So Miss USA says Miss Brooke, Mahalani Lee, she comes out and she says, I would eat everything in the world. Oh, Rachel's laughter, she says, you do not understand. I would eat everything twice. And she wins. And so that is the sweet spot, right? And you can think like in other contexts, if people are really struggling with their weight, that would be a dick move, right? But in that place, it was just right. And the super cool thing was that I managed to track Goldilocks, AKA Brooke Mahalani Lee. I managed to track her down as I was writing the book. She walked me through that moment, which is like 30 years ago now. And she said, yeah, it was an unfiltered, kind of unfiltered look, but it also, she didn't use these words in my words. It was a catalyst confession, because the backstory was that Donald Trump had just bought it. And he was thinking about imposing a weight clause on the winner so that if Miss Universe gained weight, they would not be Miss Universe anymore. And so that was like so important to her that she said that partly to make a statement, right? To make change. And yeah, pretty awesome. I want to keep going down my list of terms from the book that I'd love to hear you explicate, but I like that one and I like that story. The next one is the Ben Franklin upgrade? Oh, yeah. This is when we think about disclosure decisions, when we're deciding whether to reveal or to not reveal to the extent we are, but now that we're aware that the opportunities we are going to realize these, the number one thing we think about are the risks of revealing. But what the Ben Franklin upgrade does is it forces us to consider all four quadrants. What I mean by that is to make a good decision, we need to consider the pros and cons of doing the thing, revealing and the pros and cons of not doing the thing, of not revealing. So it's actually two by two matrix, right? And Ben Franklin is called the Ben Franklin upgrade because it's based on, there's an old story of Ben Franklin who was helping his friend make a decision of, maybe it was whether to move to America or something. I don't know. And he helped his friend walk through like, okay, well, you want to think about it in this way with the pros and cons. And so we want to upgrade our disclosure decision making so that we consider not just the risks of revealing, but fundamentally also the benefits of revealing, the downsides of not revealing and so on. So just staying on the subject of the disclosure decision, and we've talked about this, but I'm just going to come back to it. Like one of the key things I think is to read the room, is there more to be said about how to read the room? Are there any, what's that fancy academic term? You guys like heuristics? So fancy things to read the room. Well, I do think that knowing who is in the room is really important and that's a mistake we often make on social media. I mean, not as much anymore, we're more aware, but knowing who is in the room literally, but I really think that going back to your core of like, what's your why, what's your purpose? It is a really key way to start and then thinking through these, we can walk through it if you want, but like an actual disclosure decision where you think about not just the risks of revealing, but all of the other factors, the other three quadrants. Yeah, let's walk through one. You want me to invent a scenario or do you have one in your mind that you can use? I can do one. So imagine that you did something super successful at work and it was a team effort. Maybe you made a cool new ad campaign that was widely successful or a new product or in my business, you wrote a new academic paper. And so it was a teamwork, it was collaboration, but fundamentally you knew that the core idea was yours, that you came up with the core idea. And you remember pitching it to the team and everything. So that's clear. So the big boss asks your colleague, hey, whose idea was this? Who came up with this? And they say it was a group effort. And part of you dies inside because you're like, but it was me, it was my idea. I loved working with you guys, but it was my idea. And so in the old me, the old you probably wouldn't have even considered speaking up, right? But the new you is going to walk through this, okay? So the first thing that's going to come to mind are of course the risks of revealing. Like, okay, if I say something to my teammate, I love my teammates, they're going to think I'm petty. It's going to be an altercation. They're going to feel badly. I'm going to feel badly. Maybe it wasn't even my idea to begin with self-gast lighting. So that's super easy. That comes to mind. And then the next thing that comes to mind from that is the benefits of not revealing, right? Okay, I'm going to avoid this altercation. I'll keep the piece. Okay, so those are the easy ones. Now the key is to keep going. What might be the downsides of holding back? Okay? So really, really force yourself. What are the downsides of not speaking up here? Well, I'm going to ruminate. I'm going to be pissed. And we all know that when we don't say the thing, it can seep out passive aggression, distance avoidance. So that's not good. I will feel badly. I won't be able to let go of this. I'll feel resentment. I won't be respecting myself because I'm not speaking up for myself. So then there'll be some self-loathing. Like I'm being very dramatic, but you can see that there really, really are downsides to not speaking up here. And then you think about, okay, what are the benefits of saying something? Now at first they might just be the kind of, I won't ruminate anymore. But then real bonafide benefits are going to come to mind. For example, my colleagues will understand me better because they'll know what I value, because they'll know that I value ideas and that's important. And maybe they'll respect me even more because having good ideas are rare and the fact that I care about them and they know I care about that is like super baller, right? So then suddenly it's like, how can I not reveal? And then it becomes a question of how? What's the best way to communicate this, right? And that's another really important thing. Finding the right space, finding the right time, you're gonna wanna do this in person, you're gonna wanna start with something really positive. And then you're gonna wanna say, I feel, right? It's like how do you do this? It's fill in the blanks, I feel. And then I need. So that's kind of an easy, easy way to think about how to start doing this. But the point is that you can see, for any given decision, the thing that comes really naturally is the risk of revealing, but keep going. And you're not gonna do this a full four quadrant reckoning for every decision, but I have found that even doing them for like not so consequential ones like this, it's not so consequential in the grand scheme of things, it actually is a really good practice to train your mind to do it. I really like the decision matrix, but let's keep going with the, how to have the conversation because I agree with you that seems really crucial. So maybe take us another click deeper on this, I feel I need, this is an area where a lot of people get. And I see it in my own life, not only my own making of mistakes, but also watching my team make the right decision to self disclose and then sometimes, people I work with or people I'm friends with, they kind of flood the execution a little bit. Completely. Okay, so I have many thoughts. The first thing that comes to mind is, on your point, it's really hard giving people negative feedback, constructive feedback as we euphemistically call it. So how do you do this? That's a thing that's important to reveal, right? You gotta give people feedback, you gotta say how you think they're underperforming or whatever it is. So I actually at HBS, I am the official bad guy because I am the head of the academic performance committee at Harvard Business School. I'm the head of the academic performance committee. And what that means is that when MBA students don't do well in their courses, when they get enough bad grades, they come to my committee and we decide whether they have to take time off, whether they can graduate and so on. It truly is supposed to be developmental. I believe that at first I was like, but it really is developmental. We're trying to help them because as I've done this role more, I see all the reasons why there's so many reasons why people underperform at any rate. Part of my job is having conversations with these students breaking this bad news, giving this really tough feedback. And what I've learned is the first thing, well, the old me would, they come to these meetings and they say, what did I do wrong? I was prepped and I'm like, yeah, that, that, that, that, this is what you did wrong. But no matter how nicely I tried to frame it, it's still a focus is on like, eh, that they underperformed and it's on this negative, it's not a growth conversation. And then they get defensive and the medicine doesn't go down. So now what I do, I spend the majority of the meeting just listening, just hearing them out, getting them to reveal to me. And then I understand them better. And then I actually can even be more helpful because then I really know what's going on. And then the fact that even if I know, because they've written me letters describing their situation, even if I know what they're gonna say, them telling me the act of them revealing to me is really important because they need to feel heard, right? And that's the validation. And then it's like completely disarming their open and then I can be like, okay, let's work on this. So when you're talking to your teams, you can get them to talk first and ask them how they're doing because chances are like they're experiencing some negative things too. One other thing about feedback. So I have long been skeptical of the feedback sandwich, which is, you know, start with the positive, say the thing and with something positive. I've been skeptical about it because I thought, like that's like bearing the lead, they're gonna forget the feedback. So I did a bunch of studies that tested this. That tested is it better to start with like complement or expression of how you appreciate the employee and then say the negative? Or is it better to just say the thing? The feedback sandwich, actually the first slice of it, starting with the positive is vitally important. So I disproved my own snark. I thought, ah, it's really, really important. So that's important. But then the other thing I wanted to say is to touch on the point about how, if we take out feedback, like if you need to say, if you come home from work and you feel really crappy, something bad happened and your spouse says, what's wrong? How do you do, I feel, right? How do you enact that? And so what you wanna do is you wanna say a feeling word. And I'm saying this laughingly because it can be surprisingly harder than you think because I am a recovering emotional illiterate. What I mean by that is that when I was talking about my therapist a few years ago about something, I don't even remember what it was. And he said, okay, how do you feel? How did that make you feel? And I was listing cognitions. Like, this is sucky. Or like, maybe I shouldn't be worrying about this. Like I wasn't listing actual feelings. And he's like, no, that's not a feeling. That's a thought, that's a thought. And then I finally said, what is a feeling? And then he handed me this tool, that I have in the book called the Emotions Wheel. And what it is is it helps you to refine your feelings. It helps you articulate. Remember earlier I was saying being a good revealer means first, understanding your inner state. You don't understand your inner state. You can't answer how you feel. And so what this tool does, like he handed me this tool. And I have it in my book. I actually have an even simpler version in the book because I had to simplify it for myself. But what it starts, it's a wheel. The core of the wheel in my book is good bad. Is the feeling positive or negative? Okay, I can do that. And then the next band out is, is it an arousing feeling or is it a calm feeling, right? So if you think of good bad, you can have active good, like joy, elation, excitement. You can have lower rousal good, which would be like calm. Similarly with that stuff, you can have higher rousal anger. You can also have like sadness, which is low rousal. So those are the first two bands. And then from there on out, it goes into like, okay, are you disappointed? Frustrated, it has all these different adjectives that are feelings. You start at the core and then you zero in to what you're feeling. And I found that so helpful. It expands your emotional vocabulary, which helps you understand yourself. So that's a long-winded, but I think important answer to the, I feel because I feel like, say your feelings. It sounds so cheesy, but it really, it really is substantive when you think about it, right? And the other thing, the I need is really important. The reason why the I need is really important is because we often assume that our partners, that our friends can read our minds. And I know that sounds crazy because like it's completely illogical, but it's an implicit, sneaky belief. It's called mind reading expectations. So it's the belief that others should just know how you feel and a lot of us are really high in that. There's a scale to measure it, called the mind reading expectation scale, which I did. Again, I was a guinea pig for all the things in my book and I found my mind reading expectations are off the chart. One of the items is something like, that you believe in the fantastical notion that your partner should just know how you feel. And so once I realized that, that my score was super high, realize, oh my gosh, he can't read my mind, of course he can't. I need to say what I need. So I need, can be, I need a hug. I need you to listen. I need you to problem solve. I need perspective. I need you to be on my side. Like you can think there's all sorts of different needs you might have and you need to say it because otherwise they can't read your mind. And one of the really, really tricky things in relationships, one of the reasons why relationships, you know, you wake up married to someone and after 10 years, you feel like you don't know them. One of the culprits of that is that you stop sharing. Which sounds so basic, but what happens is that when you are in a long-term relationship, friendship with someone, the longer you're with that person, the more you understand them. That is true. The more knowledge you have about them, the problem though, is that your confidence that you know them massively outsizes your actual knowledge. And you can see that that's where the problem begins because if we're more confident that we know our partners than we actually are, than we actually do know them, we stop asking, we stop being curious, we stop revealing. But now that we know it, now that I know I'm a mind reader and there's this gap, what feels like over communicating, it turns out is mostly just communicating. Take me back to the moment though, where you're pissed off because your team members are taking credit for your idea and you're gonna bring it up with them and you're gonna do the eye feel I need. How would you broach that successfully? Right, so I actually have had this situation, there was a research paper and I talked to the one person that said the thing and I started by saying, I was in person, I love working with you. Truly, like you can't, it's gotta be real, like it is genuine, I love working with you. I'm so grateful for this project. This project would not be the same without you. I have to say because I respect you and I've been thinking about this and I owe it to you to tell you how this made me feel and I know you didn't mean anything malevolent. In fact, I love how collaborative we are, but at the end of the day, when you wrote down on that authorship form that it was a group effort, the idea, that didn't really sit well with me. And then she was like, oh my gosh, yes, I was just feeling that I'd really quickly, because I know we hate these stupid petty, like some journals require you to attribute who did that, we don't like that. I don't like it because we are lovely collaborators who we love collaborating and so we're not like credit hungry most of the time. But when it comes to writing in stone, whose idea was it and it's inaccurate, I was really worried about it. And in fact, we became closer as a result because she understood me more. And that's another really important thing that I think people underestimate the value of his feeling understood for who you really are. In relationships, there are studies showing that, so suppose I have low self-esteem, and on the one hand, if suppose in one situation, my spouse says, less, oh my gosh, you're so confident all the time, you're so sure of yourself, I love that about you. So not real. The other version, my spouse says, oh, I know you sometimes struggle with self-esteem, I know that about you. I'm not even validating or saying it's okay, I'm just saying I know that about you. Those relationships are associated with much more longevity, much more intimacy, much more love. And when you think about it, it makes sense, right? Because if he loves me, even though I have smelly feet and even though I have low self-esteem, that's love. So it's the same thing in friendships when saying these difficult things, they do say something about you and then they help your friend know you better. I'm not saying that this wasn't hard, it is very hard. I'm also not saying it's always gonna go well, but if it doesn't go well, you know, you've thought it through. So you're gonna do it in a good way. And if it doesn't go well, that's information, right? You learn something. We've done studies where we've asked people who've said I love you in a relationship before we've been the first to say I love you. That's like one of the most vulnerable things we can say, to say I love you to someone. We said, did the person reciprocate or did they gel to you? We didn't frame it like that, but when you feel it's time, like of these people, which are just ordinary Americans, 80% of the time was reciprocated, which I think we can take a lot of comfort in, right? I would have guessed, like my catastrophic thinker, I would have guessed it's way lower if I say I love you, right, that it would be reciprocated. Now, when you feel the time is right, then yeah, I think you have pretty good odds. And if they gel to you, then, because I've been there, then you have information. It sucks in the moment, but it's freeing, because you can move on. I keep coming back to what you said earlier, a life of undersharing is a life of missed opportunities, and I think that sums it up very nicely. You know, if there's one thing that I think people should do more of, it's share your feelings. And now that we've gone through what that actually means, it's not just some lalalala. So I don't need to explain how, but rather, what I want to say to make the point is use data. The first data point is that Tom Gilevich, amazing psychologist at Cornell, he studied regress, and he has found that, on average, about 76% of the regrets that people have in life are regressive things they did not do. Okay, not sharing is a not do thing. Number two thing I wanted to tell you is that, in a parallel universe, there's a palliative care nurse by the name of Bronnie Ware, and she wrote a book on, what are the top five regrets of people who are dying? Because she spent a lot of time talking with people as they were dying. The number three most common regret, I wish I had shared my feelings more. I mean, wow, right? As we close it out here, can you just remind everybody of the name of your book, and then also anything else you want us to know about? My book is called Revealing the Underrated Power of Oversharing, and if you want to do any of those quizzes we talked about, I have them on my website, which is proflessleyjohn.com. I'm also on socials, LinkedIn, Insta, same thing, proflessleyjohn. We will put links to all of that in the show notes. So listen to her if you want to go deeper with Leslie. Have at it, and Leslie, great job. Thank you so much for making time for this. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks again to Leslie, John, great to talk to her. Don't forget to check out the new app, danheras.com is the place to get the app. There's a free 14 day trial. If you want to check it out before you spend any money, danheras.com. Last thing to say here, thank you so much to everybody who works so hard on the show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasilie. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks. Over at Pod People, Lauren Smith is our managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Kashmir is our executive producer, and Nick Thorburn of the band, islands, wrote our theme.