Why Hot Takes Are Ruining Dating Advice ft. Dear Shandy

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You asked if we were up and we said we were up. And then you never consummated the thing. So now we all have to fuck. Yeah. Oh, they didn't tell you that's how we do all the episodes? Yeah. They locked the doors. Now we're in the pocket. So you guys have a podcast, Dear Shandy. You talk about dating relationships. I mean, what do we... Why do we have to do this? If you do what we do, what do we need to do this for? What is the... Meeting of the minds. What's the meeting? What are we going to do here? What are we going to talk about? I guess it comes down to who was doing it first. What year did you guys start? Before you. So we went there. What's the nature of the podcast? How did it start? You're... I know you were on The Bachelor and Andy, what did you do before? I was just doing my business. I was just a businessman. Okay, that's a secret. That sounds like a grift. It was business. You know, business here was a thing. What pyramid scheme did you have? It was a couple of things, MLMs. But no, I met this beautiful woman and we dated for a few years. Yes, many years. We actually got married like a year after. We got married really fast, actually. I proposed to her five months after I met her. Five months. Interesting story. I meant to propose three months after I met her. We were in Italy and I had a ring in my pocket that I brought from New York and I was in bed with her. I was like, I'm going to do it now. I don't care. You know, all the times I tried to get it romantic, like at the top of a castle outside, it was like raining. There was too many tourists. I was like, I'm doing it right here in bed and I went into my pocket and I was like, I can't get the thing out. Like it was stuck in the bottom of my jean pocket and I was, I just couldn't get out. So I was like, I'm not going to do it. It was taken too long. So I proposed a couple months later. Had you discussed engagement? No. No. He wanted to surprise me. Wow. What are you doing in Italy three months in? She was singing. She's opera singer. And you were just like, I'm coming. I'm going to, what's this business that you do that affords you to go to Italy three months with some random opera singer? Fun fact, his business or what he does outside of the podcast is top secret information. We never divulge on our podcast. You never divulge. So our shanties of nearly six years still don't know what Andy does. Don't you think that's an issue for a dating podcast? No, it's not. You're supposedly the honest one who gives it to people straight and you're not talking about money at all. That's right. Well, the reason I set that precedent is because I do not believe that work should be discussed in the first couple of days. Yeah. I mean, you're here on a Wednesday at 1151. So you must be doing well. I've done well. He's doing some detective. You don't think that has any. You think in the first few dates that is not worth bringing up at all. Well, the first few dates for sure. But I've always been on a first date with our fans. Andy has always hated the question. So what do you do? I'm asking it right now. I think it's very important to the conversation because money revolves around all of this. Don't you think? Take your pants off. Let's see if it's worth it. Absolutely will. I don't care. All right, let's do it. I have no issue. No, I don't. It's just a thing. So the listeners have no idea what you do for a living. I think they have some idea. They've pieced it together. Right. I'm sure if you do your own research. Yeah. Well, now you've made such a big deal about it. No, I would be, I would not trust someone who won't reveal what they do for a living. I wouldn't trust me, regardless of me revealing what I do for a living. Even that answer is not trustworthy. That is a not trustworthy answer. Because three months in, here's my point. How did you guys meet before three months? I happened to sit next to him at the wooly and he picked me up. The wooly, what's the wooly? It's an event space that now doesn't exist. It was at the Woolworth building, but now it's like, it was like a nice bar though. That's the settings like nice bar. So New York City, New York City, meet you. And you, who spoke to who for? I asked her. Look at him. You think that he doesn't have the moves? Well, I used to. I know. Yeah, he's a professional con man. Doesn't help people what he does. You know, that's, of course he has the moves. Thank you for the professional. Yeah. I mean, six years not telling a listenership what you do. And they trust you. I will add to this that when we started the podcast, it was sort of like in the pandemic. It wasn't sort of, it was in the heart of the pandemic. Out of our living room and we're like, we don't know if this is going to be a thing. And in general, like I was the more public figure out of the two of us. And we didn't want to like force him to be more public than he felt comfortable. And now it has just become a kind of thing. It's become a thing. Well, you were famous for turning down the bachelor, leaving the show. I watched that season. We used to recap it. I used to do the recaps unless I said something negative about you in which case it was someone else. You probably said I had to stick up my ass. No, I think we really liked you. You like, here's the thing. It was like a very big power move to leave the bachelor when he was like really into you. Yeah. You like weren't into him. That was like, it was like the one honest thing about the thing is that you were like, you were all dating this man and you be like, I'm getting to know this man and like not really that into him. I think I took the whole thing maybe too sincerely because like the way I saw it was like, this is a guy I would totally hook up with. Like he was fun. He was hot and it was really good chemistry. But then you go in the ITM room and they're like, so like, are you excited to introduce Juan Pablo to your parents as like a potential future husband? And I was like, I wasn't able to keep a straight face through those conversations. And that didn't really translate. There came a point where it was like, well, then what are you doing? Right. Why are you here? Which is fair. That's the show. I mean, that's why all the men are on it. Well, on the Bachelorette. What, to go and hook up? Kind of. Well, I mean, but then the show, the whole premise is at some point, episode seven, you have to meet parents and if you're not into it, that's okay to like. Shouldn't she look? Yeah. I mean, both sides, I think have a point in that. No, but I think the thing that was cool about that is like the bachelor sort of predicated on this idea that like everyone would be attracted and want to marry this person, right? When like the idea is if you go on 20 dates, all 20 people are not necessarily going to actually want to marry you. But because of the show stakes, there's a feeling of like, like most people don't leave. So most people get all the way to the end and they just kind of want to win. And her leaving, I think was kind of like, almost like this is actually more feels more real. Because in a real world scenario, not everyone that you're dating wants to date you back. Exactly. I appreciate you saying that. I do think that the culture around even that show has shifted so much because now that's seen as a power move. But at the time, a lot of people were like, get off my TV then. Like if you don't love that he has a daughter, like which I was, I kind of like, I wasn't a hundred percent like all in on that. And people were like, then why did you sign up for this season? That sort of thing. Yeah, that was early for you to do that then. Totally different. Yes. It was a very mixed response. Like there was a lot of like, yeah, feminism. And then there was like, get off the screen. And then when you had, when you saw her at the bar, is the bar, was the bar? Yeah, nice bar. It was actually a benefit for ocean animals, if you must know. I mean, going to charity events as a single person is actually, I feel like a pretty good idea. Awesome idea. Right. I completely agree. Also the barrier to entry being like, you need to know, usually like that's something you're like researching, you know about, and also the cover. Like in our case, there was a cover. Yeah, you have to afford it. And... But don't ask about his business. No. Just has to be able to afford it with no source of income. Well, it was $50. It wasn't worth it. Okay. Wow. Yeah, it wasn't worth it. It was still $50. One of the willy. Yeah. Yeah, you don't know. But also the cost of living in Manhattan. Did it include a drink ticket? No. No. No, okay. No, no. All going to those animals. Out the window. Oh, wow. Okay. So... So when you saw her, how do you, did you recognize her from the bar? Or did you know who she was? No. I had never seen, well, that's not true. I watched the first episode of the first season. I don't remember the guy's name. Andrew Firestone. With the Firestone. Yes. I thought Andrew Firestone was later. Maybe he met him later. But at the original batch, I think, like Vanished, she became like a civilian. Well, you could, that was like early, early reality dating. You could go back to being a civilian. So you hadn't seen, you didn't know she was... No, no, I did not. But she did tell me during our time together, not to Google her. I was just saying, that's the one way to do it. That would be the first thing I would do if someone said that to me. Right, obviously. So I was like, oh, okay. So that obviously, on the way home, I did. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. What did you say to her? I don't remember. What did I say to you? Oh, to pick her up. Oh, the line, what was the line? So what are you doing here? Okay. Are you impressed? Tone is very important on that one. Right, yes. What are you doing? The you has to be the emphasis for you. Yeah, the way he said it was like, you don't belong here. Right. But not in a bad way. She seemed out of place. She seems out of place everywhere, to be honest. In the best way. I've come to impress the fact that I'm always out of place. But I felt that way on the back. Usually at the marine biology events, there's not a lot of women there. So okay, just to be clear, I have not gone to any prior to this. This was my one and only ocean animals benefit. Were you there alone? Why are you there? Yeah. Okay, that's an interesting question. So I... So I was right. I'm sorry. I don't want to ruin the romance of the story. It was 100% fate. But I was actually just out of a relationship, taking a break, so to speak. And I discovered Tinder. So I was just swiping on Tinder and I just started talking to some girl and I was like, what are you doing tonight? And she says, I'm going to this thing at the wooly. You should come. She was going to be with a friend. So it wasn't going to be like a one on one date. So I was like, oh, okay. So I just, I had like a huge dinner. I used to get like these corporate trays of like big ziti, just eat the whole thing. You just go and get a large tray of ziti? I would get the biggest tray of ziti you can have and just eat most of it and save the rest for lunch the next day. There's bachelor stuff, right? Like, you know. Oh, like you're all... Oh, I thought you were saying this was your court, like at your business. No, I'm at home getting a corporate tray of ziti. Yeah, so I was really... You weren't like in HR and setting up that lunch. No, it was awesome. I think they're trying to piece together the business. Yeah. So you just bought yourself a large tray. Just corporate tray. Okay. So I ate it and I was in a food coma. And I'm telling you, like something just told me to go to this place. Like no interest. I was up her West Side. This was Tribeca. It was a long ride. It was raining like crazy. And I had guaranteed hookup that night from a girl I had just met the day before. Guaranteed. She was taxing me... A sure thing. Sure thing. And she was taxing me like, I'm in the neighborhood. Can I come over that kind of thing? I was like, something drove me into the subway downtown to meet this woman. Fate. And on my end, I had two girlfriends who were planning on coming with me and they both canceled on me because of the rain. And I still went by myself and my umbrella broke on the way. It was that torrential outside. It does sound like fate. It was a rom-com. Yeah. Yeah. I felt very called to go that night. Yes. And the rest is... Here we are. So then it moves pretty quickly to the point where you're, I'm going to Italy in three months. She moved in 10 days? Okay. No, no, no, no. I was in the... I know it sounds worse than it is. No, I was in... I forced her to move in with me. What happened with the woman who thought she was going to hook up with you? Oh, oh, everyone always focuses on that part. Because it sounds like a real asshole, right? Okay. So first of all, she was with someone else. So it wasn't a date. I saw her and I just was like, I'm not, that's not the vibe I want tonight. And I just snuck around a corner to sit on a couch and that's when Charlene sat next to me. He gets flack for that part of story. And it wasn't about the way she looked. It was about her vibe. It was like a very clubby like... That kind of thing. And it was just not, that wasn't my thing that night. Was it maybe that... I mean, there's a way to look at the... I've seen people where you go, it's going to be a lot of energy. Yes. I just don't want to do the... I don't have the energy. Yes. That's a good way of putting it actually. Yes, exactly. I think it goes both ways. I think it goes both ways too. I got to do hello and nice to meet you and who's the friend, she's there with friends. And it's like, a lot of... It's just like I got a really... Rally, right. Yeah. I mean, that woman must have said... After the tray of Ziti. That woman must have seen you engage three months later and been like, what? I know that face. I know that face. She's been giving me a lot of credit, but yeah, if she did check me out, it happened very fast. And she did move in 10 days. So you'd been on Tinder and for how long? Like a minute? Hardly, yeah, for a second. She stole my entire Tinder career from me. And you never been on a dating app? Well, actually, I was invited to this event by a guy I had met on Match years prior, like three years prior. And we had stayed friends because he always knew the good parties and stuff. So we'd stayed peripheral friends. Okay. And he invited me to this and he had not yet arrived when I was there. So I was there alone, my girlfriends had canceled and I was sort of like, didn't know where... What I was doing. So I sat on the sofa next to Andy. And I'm almost sure that this guy was doing Coke across the street at someone's apartment. And that's why he was late? And that's why he wasn't there. We both agree that that was the case. And I got there because of Tinder. So Coke and Tinder is the reason we're together. This is like a... This story is quite a time capsule. The... I like the honesty in it though. You're gonna hook up with someone else. Right. The fact that Tinder's just starting, this feels like a flashback episode of... Also talking to strangers. Yeah. Like you picked me up. Like I feel like that feels quaint now. Is it easier to have picked her up because she wasn't with friends? Like if she was with a couple of girlfriends, I think that would have been more... I was never good at that. Yeah. It's tougher to do that. That's advanced level. Yes. Especially when you're targeting one of the... Maybe three girls and you're like, who do I talk to? How do I do this? You have to pretend you're just being friendly and then kind of figure out a way to narrow it in. Yeah. Yeah, I've lived in an energy and I've always found that that takes a lot of energy to sort of please... I'm a people pleaser too. So I want to make everyone happy. And then, you know... So what we're learning about men though is that when they go out, they're assessing how much energy is this going to take. Okay. That's why the dating apps are such a... Exactly. Kind of like a crutch for a lot of men. Yeah. It takes away the... Risk. Yeah, which is like a... 95% of what you had to do before. You got to go up and talk to someone and... It's so not scary. The apps... I mean, I was on the apps for just a second and I was just like, this is the easiest thing in the world. It's a joke. Right. Well, the pretense of like we're both looking single and looking to date is already out there. So I think that also helps. And it's also like now there's... I mean, what is it? Bumble and I think there's a couple of them where they pre-select you where they're like the women have to choose. Bumble. Yeah. Yeah. And then hands you have to know someone. Yeah. Right. Okay. It's just... It's so easy and it trains men to not have the skills to actually chemically connect with women. That's what I think. I think it's... Right. Yeah. And you also don't build the character that you would build from rejection and taking those risks and maybe expending energy in the wrong places. And that's the thing is like you... You get skills in anything from failing, right? I mean, you can learn academically how to do something but without failing, you're not going to really become an expert at it. And the more you fail, the better you are, right? So you never fail really on the dating apps, do you? Did you learn that in your business? Did you learn that in your trade? My business never failed. So I never failed. I never learned anything. I never learned failure from that. Still hasn't failed. Okay. So you meet her, she says, don't Google me, you Google her anyway. You see she was on the Bachelor. Did you watch the season? Did you not watch it? Did you... When did you watch it? After we met, you mean? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Did you watch it before you decided if you... How far you wanted to go there? No, I saw the clip of her. The only thing I saw when I Googled her was a clip of her rejecting... No, sorry. I saw the clip of her accepting the first impression rose reluctantly. Reluctantly. Yeah. Okay. Where she's like... That's a power move. Sure. And I was like, she's faking it. Like she really wanted it. That's what I thought. It was like on E news or something like before the news came on. And she did that. So anyway, that was the only thing I saw. But then I watched the season with her. Only my scenes. Only her scenes. So he would fast forward to just my scenes. Okay. Yeah. Including like the makeouts and everything. He got a real kick out of it. It was great. It was great. Yeah. I mean, you would have... But I hear something like, would you have proposed in three months if you had watched it and she looked like a complete lunatic? That's a really good question. And I'm otherwise exactly the same. That's true. Yeah. She's acting exactly. That's a great question. Because in the first three months, not all the shoes drop necessarily. Like some of the crazy shoes might be six months out or a year out. Yeah. So that's an interesting question. But it's part and parcel. I mean, she is who she is. So it's impossible that she would have been crazy on the show. Well, now you know that. Yeah. That's true. Fine sight. After over a decade. Yeah. So you've been together over a decade. You live together. You're married. All that stuff. And what's the, you said you wanted to move. You guys want to move? We're thinking of moving. Yeah, the city is too much. The city, Andy is a lifelong Manhattaner. Right. And I think he's really. So it's a family business. Okay. Okay. I don't know. Lifelong, that's a lot of money to live in the city. Okay. No, no, no, no. I'm wondering. And I think he's a country mouse trapped in a city mouse's existence. Yeah. Personally. Okay. How about you? You live in Florida. I live in Delray Beach. I did last year. Yes. And you used to live in the city. I lived in New York. And what happened? I liked. The happiest you've ever been. Yeah. I wanted to be near my family and I wanted to, I was traveling a lot. So I was really here for this podcast and doing stand-up. And I was like, I think I can work it out a different way. Yeah. Yeah. And you're happier, like you said. You know, I'm happy. I don't think that, I think New York has its place for everything, you know, for whatever someone's after, but. We would keep our apartment. I'll put it that way. You'd keep your apartment. Yeah. It's just, it's like New York is just, it's always pulling you. It's a disease. It gets into you and it's lifelong. It's like Lyme disease. Does Lyme disease stay with you forever? I think so. I think it does. It's a horrific. Terrified of Lyme disease. I know. So are we. Me too. I'm going to talk away from. That's actually my biggest fear, I think. Biggest. I'm with you. Yes. I am so with you. Yes. A tick that's on me that I don't know is on me, that's been there for a while. Or you wake up and it's like, God, it's thing, and you already, it's already done its business. And I live in like the woods. So it's probably a bad place given the, that's my biggest fear. But. And you have a dog. Yes. And I have the dog who I've removed several ticks from. I hear they're making a lot. So they're waiting on you. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. That's a. I circling Jordan. Digress. Yes. You guys talk a lot about reality TV. And so what's the interest? What is the, the thought? It's kind of a natural progression. I think after my time on The Bachelor, I was really fascinated by what had happened to me. Like I read my journal and I, it would had been my first brush with like having a therapist because you know, you speak with someone before and after the show. And I felt myself like change in that experience. I learned a lot about myself. Everyone says that, but I felt myself like really start to like fall for this guy who it, like realistically, I never would have. And I just became really fascinated by that. And so I started blogging about it, like analyzing edits and how they would show pickups in that moment. Like this sentence was like stitched together to make that person say this thing. And then we started the podcast in the pandemic and it sort of just, we started wrapping up there. Yeah, but the pot, we didn't actually, the podcast was a relationship podcast. Yes. So I was giving all her friends relationship advice. Her friends have relationship issues. So to speak. Andy was the, or is still is the go to. So, so we started a relationship podcast, but then at some point, I think it was what like six, seven months in, our producer was like, you really should recap these shows. I mean, I think it would be fun and I didn't want to. I was still writing these recaps, which is like, I don't want to say that blogging is not as like lucrative, but it was definitely a lot more work. And it was, you know, it takes a lot more time to put that together. And so we tried it and Andy was real natural. Well, what I didn't realize is number one, you could obviously make fun of the shows like mercilessly. And they were there for that. It was a ripe field of making fun of. That's what they signed up for, right? Exactly. But it's also an inescapable like psychological experiment. Like people, I think go on the show thinking like, oh, I'm either going to do this just for cloud or I'm going to, I think most people probably do it for cloud. What's your opinion on that? Is it to find love or cloud? Like what's the percentage break? I think it's more, I think it's like mainly for cloud and then if, but they're open to the idea of love. Right. So, so the interesting thing is even if they're there for the wrong, the wrong reasons, which I think most often they are, they end up having psychological interactions that are unavoidable. And you can see that and analyze it because when you put two people in that sort of Petri dish, things happen regardless of what the reason they're there for. What's your favorite of the reality shows? Love is Blind. Hands down. Hands down. It's the king. It blows every other show out of water. Yeah. Well, I think it gets, you get much more like deeper one on one, like nuanced relationship issues. Yes. Also what they choose to show us, because I feel like sometimes bachelor, I'm like, is this really what you're going to show us talking about them, talking about their relationship yet again, instead of a thing that happens that isn't really related to their relationship, but how they handle it shows so much more about their relationship. Right. You got a real world thing to get into. Yeah. And unlike ultimatum and temptation island, which are kind of second and third favorites, I think you can't con the system with love is blind, because you can go in with a fake-ish relationship, or maybe a relationship that was real, but now is done. Or maybe you're a cuckold. Or you're, yeah, exactly, which is a win-win. But with love is blind, I mean, sure you can go on for the wrong reasons, but in the end, you're not in a relationship to start. So you can't really fake that part. So it seems a little more real. Right. And you can't see the other person, so it's not just a sexual thing. Which is your favorite. I like love is blind too. Love is blind is a fun show. I think that, yeah, I think they're all fun. Like they're definitely worth talking about in the sense of like a dating and relationship space. I don't really like love island. We've never actually seen it. We've never seen it, but we might start this year. I think we might start, yeah. It's a lot. It's every day, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's a full-time job. It just feels very superficial. Everyone is super hot, but there's like, I don't know, it feels like spring break. Yeah. Not like the real world stuff. Like perfect match vibe, kind of like that. I don't think I've seen that one. Oh, yeah, that's another. What would you guys change to love is blind? Oh, it's kind of perfect. Yeah. I would just want more seasons. Yeah, more seasons. I really love how they go city by city, because not only does the relationship seem like they could have legs on the other side, but also like you see the culture of that city. It's fascinating to me. Oh, that's true. Yeah, like when the, the one we did last time, the Midwestern one. They did Ohio. They did the whole state. They're like, they couldn't just get Acron. They're like, oh, Columbus is Cleveland now. We got to do the whole state. That's funny. Well, we have a game that we want to play based on this. True love or true likes, and it's a reality TV couple. Were they in it for true love? Could we have seen it or were they just in it for the likes? Okay. And we're going to go through each couple. Where are some of them are still together? Yeah, some are still together, some are not. But was this a couple that you could see just, Just in for the likes or? Was a business relationship. All right. Lauren Speed and Cameron Hamilton from Love is Blind, they are still together, married on the show November 2018, and they have a baby. Do you think this is true love or true likes? So we confess we haven't seen this season. That's season one, right? Yes, season one. I assume that's true love. I would say true love. When you have a baby together. That's true. You've got to be like a real deranged little kid to be in it for the likes. Yeah. It's also interesting that like, if you're not in there like social media silo, you know nothing about them. Like I don't, they're just a couple to me. I don't really follow either of them. I don't see them at the reunions. It's not like I've seen them like pop up a million times. Agreed. Also hot take on any reality show, I think, is that anyone who's there season one is more likely to be there for like actual love. I could not agree more. Because you don't, now it's like, you know what happens when you go on Love is Blind. But this could easily have just been one of those shows that no one ever watches or sees or cares about. Yeah. It wasn't self aware at that point. It's like season two of a housewife show. The first season you're like, they look like normal people. And then the second season you're like, what happened? Now they're performing. They got stylers. They got Botox. Yeah. If you think about it, season one, they all left probably with a million followers and now it's like 50,000. I know. Does that matter to you guys? Do you guys, what amount of time is spent on the follower stuff? Oh, I haven't posted to Instagram in a year. I'm talking about the people that are on the show. Oh, I think it matters to them. But I think that, you know, if everyone knew they would get a million followers, like if they knew, they didn't know. And that's one of the reasons why they got that many followers. Now a lot of the couples that it's part and parcel, I don't think they can parse out what's love and what's clout. I think it becomes one monster. Yeah. Well, that's why it's hard to, yeah, sometimes it's hard to say. This one, I think more true love. Jason Tardik and Caitlin Bristo, the Bachelorette, they split in August, 2023 when they were together. We had them on the show. Yes. Together. Together. Okay. So, love fest episode. Yeah, to talk about their relationship. And yeah, I'm going to go with a clout on this one. Okay, true likes. I think, I think one-sided clout. I think she was really into it. No, Caitlin was in. Okay. Yeah. You could feel that in the interview? Yes. Yeah. What about it made you feel that way? I mean, he said there was like a, he felt distant and kind of distracted during the interview. Like he had somewhere better to be. Not that our podcast is so amazing that you don't have somewhere better to be. It's very possible. But there was a whole Reddit thread about it actually, how he just didn't seem like he was into it. And he was defending it like I had a really bad day at work. And I was just like, I don't know. I could have a bad day at work and we're still good. You know? So, I think he was. What would a bad day at work? You know how business is. Yeah, business. You know how business goes. Sorry, the everyday trials and tribulations of a businessman. And incidentally, he did start a podcast that was, I think, powered by the clout Caitlin gave. I think that this has happened to her. Yeah. Like this happens to her. Yeah. And we love Caitlin. We love Caitlin. Not that that affected our choice there. Amanda Batula and Kyle Cook from Summerhouse. Never heard of these people in my life. You have, you've seen all the, Never seen Summerhouse. That guy's got a great mullet though. You've seen like the Westpills in Amanda thing. No. Wow, you're not really not in that corner. You have no awareness of them whatsoever. Never heard of them. Never. Never seen, like that guy, is that a mullet? That's a, it's, yeah. That is fine as well. It's kind of like, what is that? He almost looks like AI. Yeah, he does. He looked like AI started one person and finished with another one. Oh, that's funny. Okay, so then you won't know the next one. Okay, so then. Amanda Batula and Westpills. Wow, no idea. Next. No, don't know. But they're not in it for love. I'm telling you right now. You can tell. Okay. Yeah, I think his face does not scream in and out. No, no. Ashley Aya Kinetti and Jared Haybond. This is love. Ashley Aya Kinetti and Jared Haybond. Yeah, we've also had them on this love. It's love. And love that was hard won by her. She would not quit on him. Did you guys do a rewatch of their season or? No. Of the Paradise season? We watched their season, but we didn't rewatch. Oh, no, that's what I'm wondering. You watched their season as part of the show? Yeah, we watched their season. Then we had them on, but she worked hard for that relationship and he's happy now, I'm pretty sure. And now they're doing like a housewives. We really like them. Yeah. I don't know how they are on the show though, real housewives. Or is it? She's great. She's great. I mean, she seems like one of the more normal people. Yeah. Yeah. She's a star. She's had a real turn. Yeah. Anyway. Well, yeah, I found her a lot more likable than when I saw her on The Bachelor. And then on the show. Yes, on The Bachelor, she was not likable. Yeah. But yeah. But she's not likable. Then on Rhode Island, she seems a lot. That was the most recently I've heard of. But they kind of seem like a little bit more like every man. Yes. Yes. Than they were. Yeah. So now we're going to do Heidi Montag and Spencer Pratt from The Hills. Do you not know who they are? I know The Hills and I know the names, but that's it. So I. We've never watched The Hills. I mean, they've been together for so long. Are we really going to say that that's for clout? It's been like what, 20 years? You know what that? That's a perfect clout love. It's there. You can't separate them. Yeah. I mean, they do have two kids also. So. Yeah. It doesn't matter. I'm sorry, but time, they have time on their side. Like I do not believe that that's clout anymore. Well, maybe, you know, I think what you're saying, the clout is what they connect on. Right. That their business. Their business is their relationship. Takes away the clout and what's left. Right. I'm sure that you and your business partner, if you have one, that's a big part of what makes you guys get together and get along. Oh, you're right. So wait a minute. So you guys review these shows. Yeah. And then like back to work, turn off the TV. No relation to the outside world of these shows at all. Like don't follow the math. It's just strange to me that you have no idea who Amanda Batula. We never watched Summer House. But no reference to them whatsoever. Nothing. You guys into Bravo? No. But no, the other shows. So they don't come up on your like algorithm at all. We don't do Bravo. Just keep going. Yeah. Is that so shocking? It's very shocking. I would say that's actually a crazy thing to say. Can I ask you this? Are you disappointed? No. I'm just I'm weirded out. Yeah. Because I think it's strange to take the position you just took of like, we don't know them at all. No way, no how. It was almost defensive to be honest. That you guys went from knowing wholeheartedly about Ashley and Jared. Yeah. And having this warmth to them. To then like. Because they're from a bachelor. Yeah. I know. But then there was a total stiff arm to the Amanda stuff has been in the news for like a month now. What did you do? No, none. Okay. I just think that's strange. The business that you work in must be so. It's so consuming and all. Yeah. That you must go from we podcast about this thing to I got to go to work. I'm done. Turn it off. I would say we're most interested in the dynamics on the show. And then whatever happens after the show or with these, you know, I don't care. These people were not really that interested. If they discover that those two people are actually aliens from another galaxy. I don't care about anyone's life in this sphere. I just care about the interpersonal relationships on the show. And also the incredible lack of interpersonal skills and game that I'm starting to see develop through season. What's the lack of interpersonal skills? Have you watched the bat? Have you watched people have a conversation on the show? I'm on Love is Blind. Look, here let's go. Ready? Watch. Hey, I really, I think we have a great connection. And yeah. I think this could go somewhere. Yeah. And I want to talk about something else that about me. Yeah. I really like flowers and I like to motorbike. OK, we're good. That's a conversation. You feel that that's a generational thing. No eye contact, not asking questions, talking about themselves, like saying like, like, like, like, come on. You don't notice that? You don't think that that's different from the first season of The Bachelor? I guess I have. I didn't watch the first season of The Bachelor. I guess I noticed that the conversations are lacking. I don't, you know, like. Maybe it's is it your generation? If you, I guess you could say that if you want to like cut. You're 40 right? I'm 41. Yeah. OK. So you're still good. So if you go home tonight and you watch season one or even watch Jesse Palmer's season, that's old enough, watch the season and then watch this season or like whatever, Grant season or Grant. It's rough stuff. Rough stuff. You will be shocked and amazed at the level of articulation that you will see. The difference of articulation, eloquence between now and then. And we're only talking and again, this is social media, right? This is pre-social media or right at the cusp of social media. The level of eloquence is shocking. It's like you're watching like a movie from the 40s watching Jesse Palmer, who was made fun of. For not being very articulate. For being like a jock, a dope, right? And it's truly amazing to see because it's like you usually that kind of evolution happens over decades. It's now happened within the span of one decade. Men have gone from well-spoken people who look a woman in the eye, ask questions to people who stare into space, talk about themselves, cannot get through ascendance without a million ums or likes. I mean, this has happened in the span of 10 years. Well, I have a question. Is it that the generation has changed or is it that the casting has changed? Because you think about like because you can get so much more clout than you used to. And the goal of all these people is to just be hot on Instagram and get followers and then never have to work again. Are they just casting people who have less to say than they used to? Like it used to be that the bachelor was the most eligible man in America. That was like the pitch of like this is someone that any woman would want to marry and be with. Now it's like the bachelor is a right is a software salesman from Wisconsin, which is nothing wrong with, but would I say that's like the most eligible man in America? Yeah. No, I do think social media is definitely some of that the caliber of contestant, I think is probably slightly less. But for everyone to be like this, I think maybe it's just a phase. I mean, it's a development. The golden bachelor the first season with Gary. Did you think those conversations are lacking? No, we really enjoyed. But I think that's to Jordan's point. But they're older. But I'm saying like those people came on with like a wide eye enthusiasm. That was very different than, you know, those women, especially that cast Gary was fine, but like the women were like kind of beloved. But they also it's hard to say it's hard to parse that out from the overall franchise and say that they weren't fully aware of the possibilities with their careers and their social media followings because they had already seen 20 seasons of the bachelor, right? So I think the difference there is the fact they were baby boomers, right, almost leaning into silent generation. No, wait, which is what's with the one right before the baby boomer, the greatest generation silent greatest boomer acts. I think they were boomers. They were people who never had any internet growing up or even after college. So, right, you know, that's a big difference. Right. I don't know. But if you're watching this show with the idea that any one of this generation has no interpersonal skills, like are you looking down on these people before they even get a chance to give you. No, first, well, I'm not saying no one has interpersonal skills. I'm saying what I see the majority is that there are very weak interpersonal skills. Okay. The majority. And this is just on the TV show. I don't see I'm not watching guys out there on Tinder, right, or whatever. But I will say that what I see and don't leave behind here. No, I mean, you agree with me. No, I completely agree. I mean, look at like, let's say Alex or Chris from the most recent season of Love is Blind. I just, you just didn't see men behaving like that. And those are extreme examples. I do think casting does play a part in this. Like they're probably casting because they're terrible, because these shows know that the more terrible the contestants they get, the more people are watching. Drama. Yeah. Like that's going to make better TV. It's all, they're all feeding the same beast. Also, the more followers you get, the more airtime you get, the more followers you get. And now everyone knows that you can make a career out of that. The first season of The Bachelor, you, that didn't exist. Like on my season, Instagram wasn't even a thing yet. Right. I don't know. But that wasn't that long ago. Look at that guy. Right. I felt Connor was like a good example of like, he said, he was pretty open and honest about his life and what he was looking for. And I thought, you know, I think it's somewhat simplified to be like all the men on these seasons can't speak to these women. Well, it's a generalization. Sure. I'm not saying every single one. Connor, we sung his praises the whole season. But I think there's also the acknowledgement of like, you know, I don't think this is a space for men to really take chances and be themselves and be vulnerable on these shows. That's also true. You know, the, the, the, you know, who's the punch up, punch down we've established that, you know, these men are punching down in a way they don't have to, you know, commit and maybe they're there to have sex and they're, and we assume that all the women are there to, you know, find love, you know, and when that's told after the fact, you know, I do think they're aware of social media of like where they're villainized and could be, you know, for any like mistake and not, you know, no, a relationship that doesn't turn into marriage. No. Oh, sorry. I didn't understand that. I think if a relationship doesn't turn into a marriage for a guy, he is not a hero on these shows. But I think there's more ethical ways of going about, you know, not of ending it or speaking to someone, approaching someone. But I'm speaking in the middle case scenarios where people are like, I'm just saying like, if a guy goes on there to speak on those shows, like he is really not being looked at like as like benefit of the doubt scenario. I think it depends. I think it's case by case and, you know, we're focusing on the ones that we were being critical of, but there's also many men across all of these shows that we have really loved. Like we shower love on some people and we'll criticize others because what we're looking for really is human connection. Right. And if it feels like the people aren't really looking for that or just bearing and like just trying to connect with another human, I'd feel like, what's the point? Isn't that what a relationship is? And again, it's the trend, right? It's not, it's not black and white. So if you go back and look, do it. It's interesting. Watch an old, old episode of The Bachelor and now watch a new one. And I want to add to this, just to draw down as an original point. So I went on The Bachelor, right? And when people learn this, they're like, what? You? Like that's like, you don't seem like the kind of person who goes on The Bachelor. I went on a time when Instagram wasn't a thing. Like I had an Instagram. What year are you on? It was 2013. We filmed it aired in 2014. Oh, wow. Instagram wasn't even really a thing. Like monetizing Instagram wasn't a thing. There's like, why would you have followers? I had a private Instagram with my ex-boyfriend that I'd never. A joint Instagram account? No, like we just only followed each other. Did I ever get to see that? Oh yeah. Well, I just made it public. There was nothing. It was just like, it was like, because I was in a long distance relationship. It was like very uneventful. I can say now that with what going on these shows has equaled in terms of social media, I would never go on any of these shows today. Right. Right. And this is me, like I went on this show. Well, that does to speak to Jared's point. It does suggest that the people going on the show are a different caliber than the people, different intention, different caliber than the people who went on. The benefits are different than the used to be. But I also, you know, I give credit where credit is due. Like it takes balls to go on these shows. It was one of the hardest things of my entire adult life, to watch myself back on TV, see myself from different angles, criticize myself like no one was harder on me than me, trust me. So I like, in general, I would say we're actually extremely compassionate towards everyone on this show in terms of like what they're going through. Who's like in their ear, what are they being fed? Like the stuff that we don't see from our sofas, like they're being fed a narrative too. That you probably have a better sense of what they're being fed having been on it. Yeah. That's one of the reasons why we recap it is because there's so much more behind the scenes. Like look at us with our set right now. Like there's stuff that people aren't seeing, you know, that makes it all happen. There's someone on the other side of that camera when someone is speaking their truth and they sound terrible. Yeah. What did you think when you, when she told you she was on The Bachelor? Like was there a, was there a judgment? No, I actually thought it added value because I found her so like, I knew I was going to marry her the second I heard her open her mouth. Like I know that sounds corny. But why her, her voice, yeah. It was impossible because of my voice apparently. Total lunatic, I'll take it. That's how good of an opera singer. Well, I actually expected her voice to be really high and it was actually low. And I was just, and the thing just anyway, she spoke and I said, I'm going to marry this woman. But, um, He said that in his mind. Yes. But, but with that in mind, I just felt like she was just so classy and so just what I'd been looking for my whole life. And then I found out she was on The Bachelor, which is like, look, let's be honest, it's not like in the grand scheme of classy art. It's not at the top. Can we agree on that? On the classy to, on the classy to, on the classy trashy scale. Like off road to, yeah. Okay, you know. But leveled out by opera. Yes. But the juxtaposition of the fact that she spoke the way she did was the way she was. She was an opera singer and was also on this show just made her more shiny to me. So it, it, Listen up here. We want everyone to go listen to the Dear Shandy podcast. Go, go, go, go, go, check out the recaps. They do love is blind, The Bachelor. Go check it out. And it's great to have you guys here. Thank you for having us. Charlene and Andy. Thank you for coming on. Thank you guys so much. We solved dating. We did it again. We did it again. And you found out what I do for a living. We, I, we will try one maybe next episode. That's a second date. Maybe off air. You'll get to hear. Who knows? I mean, listen, it's a, this is a journey. So we'll be back next episode. Bye. Boom.