Screens without Shame: Jonathan Haidt and Catherine Price

Caregiving is one of the biggest sources of stress for parents today. The data shows that most parents spend nearly every waking hour focused on someone else. And if you feel depleted, that's not failure. That's the reality of how much you're carrying. Another thing the data tells us is this, almost three-quarters of parents, say having a stronger network of trusted caregivers, would improve their mental and emotional health. And I see that play out all the time. When parents have real support, the mental load lightens a bit, and they become more present, calmer, and more regulated. Care.com makes it easier to find that kind of support. With background check caregivers, reviews, and filters for the exact skills you're looking for, whether it's infant care before or after school help, camps, daycares, or senior care. And right now, Care.com is offering something they've never offered before. For a limited time, use the code, good, 35, to get 35% off a premium membership. Plus, a free subscription to Headspace. Because when you have support, you can show up as your best self, for the people you care for, and for yourself. One thing I see over and over with parents is just how much we're carrying. The data backs us up. Most parents spend nearly every waking hour focused on someone else. So if you feel exhausted, stretch thin, or like your brain never really shuts off, that makes complete sense. I've seen how powerful it can be when families have more support. When parents have trusted caregivers, the mental load, lightens, and they're actually able to be more present, not because they're doing more, but because they're not doing it all alone. Care.com makes it easier to find trusted, background-checked caregivers, whether that support for a newborn before or after school help, or even care for an aging parent. You can search by experience, read reviews, and find support in a way that feels safer and more intentional, and social media, or word of mouth alone. And do you know that you can find activities, camps, and daycare on care.com too? For a limited time, you can use the code Good35 to save 35% on a care.com premium membership. Because when you have support, you can show up as your best self for the people who need you. Screens, phones, kids, okay, look, I know what you're thinking. What can I possibly hear that I don't already know? And maybe you're thinking, Dr. Becky, if you say one thing, that makes me feel guilty about these topics, I mean, I'm just trying to survive, parenting is so hard. I hear you, and I hear that thought also, knowing I'm about to dive into a conversation about these topics. But here's the other thing. I'm hardly ever talking to a parent when screens and phones aren't on their mind. On some level, they know, I feel like it's affecting my kids' behavior and our connection. It affects my own mood. I just feel so stuck. It feels like so much of my life is on the phone. So here's the framing of what I want to talk about today. And I promise you, no judgment, no shame, no morality, and let me start by taking myself off a phone pedestal. I'm on my phone too much. I sometimes give my kids too much time on their iPads. I end up yelling in random moments. Everyone off their screens just because I feel guilty. So I am right there with you. What I have done is brought here to incredible minds about this topic. Jonathan Hate and Catherine Price. You probably know Jonathan from his book The Anxious Generation, which I don't know, took the world by storm? What you might not know is Jonathan teamed up with Catherine Price, who wrote How to Break Up with Your Phone. And they created a book for kids. It's called The Amazing Generation. Your guide to fun and freedom in a screen filled world. And it came out on December 30th, 2025. And what I have in store for you is something amazing. A real conversation where you're also going to hear about the struggles we all have in our home in a very honest way. No pedestal here. And you're going to leave feeling more empowered. More equipped to make maybe one or two small shifts. And you're going to have a way to get your kid involved in the process. So you're on the same team. I'm Dr. Becky. And this is good inside. We'll be back right after this. And you do not want to miss this episode. All right, John. The Anxious Generation has been out in the world a little bit now. And I feel like parents know the headline, which is also just a testament to the power of your message and the way you tell the story and how much it resonates that people just incredible. A couple questions following up kind of the Anxious Generation. Since publishing the book, what is something you've learned or see differently or maybe want to put a magnifying glass on because you realize it was even more important than you realized. Yeah. So I'll say one good one bad. The good one, the good thing I've realized is that is that the world already saw the problems wanted to do something but didn't know what to do. And this especially was clear with mothers. What amazed me was the degree to which mothers around the world as soon as they got the book. They jumped into action. They, you know, in the book, we call for collective action. But the mother's, you know, I mean, dad's red is said, yeah, I agree with this. But they didn't, they're not selected to do something. The mothers, I mean, it was instant like in Brazil, mothers got together. They, they worked with a female legislator that got legislation introduced to bandphones and schools. They got it through the legislature in 10 months. So, so that was the thing I didn't expect was the speed with which people would take action around the world. With Australia last week, they raised the age of 16. So that's the good thing, which makes me really optimistic that we actually can change this. We can get our kids back from the technology. The bad thing that I've realized is that the problems I described in the anxious generation, I really understated it. That is, I focused on mental illness and I think I got that right. Like the levels are horrible and they're, and they're rising. But I didn't fully appreciate the degree to which it's changed the human ability to pay attention, to read a book, to focus, to accomplish anything over a period of time. This I think ultimately might be the biggest damage that has happened. And so we have to look much more broadly when we look at the effects of this on our kids. Could you ground that in a story in a moment just to like, bring that to life? So my students, I teach a course at NYU. And so I have, my undergrad class is 30, 19 year olds roughly. And about a quarter of them spend four hours a day on social media or more. And the degree to which it prevents them from living, it's like, it's like it's all they do other than class is, is, is watch short videos. And when, over the course of the semester, the assignment is, you have to pick something, change about yourself that will make you happier in the long run. And those that are on, type of social media, I say, you have to work on this. There's no point in you doing anything else unless you work on this. And when they do, they get their lives back. They say, oh, I have so much time to do my homework now. So I'm not stressed to battered anymore. And I have so much time then how I go out with my friends, like you come to New York City, you're in college in New York City. And all you do is scroll through TikTok, like no, they're getting out there. They're going to Broadway plays. They're exploring parks. So it's amazing to see the way they come alive. When they get their attention back. Yeah. I've a follow up to that because one of the things I've been talking to parents a lot about. And it has to do with how you start your day. But that's just one manifestation of it. I feel strongly that a few young kids and look, nothing has to be rigid. But if every Saturday and Sunday, they have X number of hours of time on the iPad as the start of their day, the idea that starting your day with what I call no effort, high dopamine. Yeah. And the idea that later, they're going to do a puzzle or listen to you when you want to leave the house or be able to manage frustration with their sibling, which requires a lot of effort and basically no dopamine because the best you get is being like, well, I guess I'm not going to get the blue cup. Like, you know, okay. All right. I keep saying to parents, we've been talking about this a lot in our membership. Like I have a million psychological interventions. But let's put them all in the shelf. Let's just look at the rhythm of how you're spending time. And it's been a really powerful shift or at least something to add on. And I think that's kind of in line with what you're saying. If you're spending four hours on social media, forget time. But also how an assignment from your class is going to feel like they can't swipe you away. They can't be like, Dr. Hate, nope, nope. Next one. I don't know why you forget that in class. They're like, nope. I don't want the next professor. You're like, I'm not swipeable. I'm here. This is a class. You pay money for this. But is that in line with kind of also just the attention, the tolerance of frustration? Yes, because the other thing that I do with the entire class on day one is I asked him to fill out what are the five first things you do when you wake up in the morning? At what point do you go to the bathroom, drink water, get out of bed, pick up your phone and scroll. And almost everybody, the first thing they do is look at notifications and catch up. Then I say, now count down at the end of the day from five down to one zero zero as you close your eyes. And again, the last thing they do most of them is check their phone. And what are they doing between mostly check their phone? So when I put it to them that way and I say, okay, you've got to carve out a time for yourself to recharge. And so, yes, so like, so how do you end your day to get a good night's sleep? You're not stressed. And how do you begin your day to develop focus that you can do the things that you choose to do? Because what they're doing is they're handing over the decisions about their consciousness to these algorithms and the algorithms are going to control them from the moment they open their eyes, the moment they close their eyes. So just to mirror some of that back, one of the things that sounds like that's become even clear to you since the book is yes, anxiety, things like that, but focus ability to take on hard things, how people are even spending their time and then what comes into their life because they're spending on their time. Those are even bigger umbrellas for the impact around phones and maybe even you realize when you wrote the book. Is that right? That's right. Okay. Catherine speaking about focus, time, attention. I know you've spoken about how attention is like our most precious resource, right? And that in some ways, this isn't just some small topic. Like there's an existential nature to giving our attention away or to not having control over it. Can you just talk about attention and how phone use relates to that? Sure. So my previous book or one of my previous books was called How to Break Up with Your Phone, which is for adults. And so just to piggyback on what you were just saying, I hear from adults all the time about how fragmented their attention feels. Also how useful it is to get your phone out of the bedroom and get a standalone alarm clock because the reason people check their phone first thing in the morning is their silence in the alarm. Yeah. And when you silence the alarm, you touch the alarm and if the alarm's the phone and it has all these notifications, well now you just allowed someone else to take over your day. 100%. So but in terms of the idea of our attention being our most valuable resource, that was my biggest personal takeaway from my previous work, which is the idea that ultimately we only remember what we pay attention to because we only experience what we pay attention to. And one of my biggest personal takeaways that I try to remind myself of as much as I can is that our lives are where we pay attention to. And so every time I or any one of us is making a decision in the moment about what to pay attention to, we're making this much broader decision about how we want to live our lives. Yeah. But the good news there, because that sounds very heavy, is that we do have the ability to decide what to pay attention to. So if you have that realization and you say, you know what, I don't want to spend all my attention on my phone. I don't want to allow my attention to be fragmented and lose my ability to focus. You actually, we as adults and then doing this for our kids, we have the ability to take back control there. And it's actually very inspirational to hear from people who started trying to build their attention span and how quickly it comes back. Oh, I love anything around hope. But is this idea from a massacre for hope? You know, is this more of a systems issue than a willpower issue? Because one of the things I say to parents a lot, so they're like, my kid takes a ride pad when it's not iPad time. My first question, they always expect me to come down on the kid. And I'm like, where's the iPad when it's not on iPad time? They're like, it's on the kitchen counter. And I was like, look, I'm just going to speak for myself. When my phone is on the kitchen counter, and I'm an adult, and I tell myself, don't take my phone, don't take my phone, I'm successful. 1% of the time. I mean, I joke my phone has to be behind two closed doors. I've tried one. It's just not enough for me. It has to be two. It's my bedroom door and my bathroom door literally. And so when I think about a five year old, who sees the most enticing dopamine filled low effort, easy, you know, pleasure device, I feel like it's asking a kid a lot, which makes me think, is this willpower? Are there system changes, adults and kids need in your environment to help get your attention back? Yeah, be ridiculous to try to talk about this in terms of willpower. The people who are in charge of designing the most problematic apps and devices, hire thousands of engineers whose job it is to hack our brains, and to get us hooked on their devices in the same way that slot machines are designed to hijack our time. And when I say in the same way, I mean, literally, they studied slot machines. It's worth noting that slot machines are considered to be so addictive that states don't allow people under 18 to play them. Yes, and these tech companies hire people who copied those techniques, put all of these dopamine triggers into their apps that are the same dopamine triggers, bright colors, variable rewards, you know, sounds, all these things. They're in slot machines and they are in smartphones. In fact, many experts refer to smartphones as slot machines we keep in our pockets. So if you're not going to expect an adult to be able to resist with willpower, the call of a slot machine is absolutely ridiculous to think that our kids would be able to resist a device in an app that's been deliberately designed to addict them. Dino, John has thoughts on this too. Yeah, yeah, no, if I could add that in because this is the central challenge of my students' wrestle with how do you change your habitual behavior? And the underlying psychology that they find helpful is that the mind is divided into parts that sometimes conflict. And the metaphor that I developed in my first book, the Happiness Hypothesis, which was about ancient wisdom, what were the ancients right about, almost everything when it comes to psychology. If you think of your mind as being like a small rider on top of a very large elephant, the elephant is very smart. The elephant is all of the intuitive process. These are the emotions, the automatic things that our brains do because our brains are very, very smart. The rider is the thing that is our conscious reasoning. And if you close your eyes and you're thinking like, that's the rider, that little thing that's like got the language. And that little thing says, I'm only going to have one piece of chalk. And here I'm speaking very, very personally. I realize I, as soon as I take a piece of chalk that I'm going to go through the whole back, it's very hard for me to stop myself. You are not alone. We see you. So the rider is like what we're aware of, but the thing is the rider is not in control of the elephant. In fact, the rider evolved, language evolved to make us more effective at manipulating others, at dealing with our environment, which is why you would say, you know, if you're going to go for the second piece or if you're going to go for the iPad, your reasoning isn't saying, no, don't do it. Your reason is saying, well, just this once. I was good yesterday. Oh, I deserve this. So the reasoning isn't service of the elephant. And what this means is if you want to change your behavior, your habitual patterns, you must change the elephant. You have to change the habitual thing. And that takes time. It takes a few weeks. So you've got to develop habits and patterns and over time that will train the elephant. But if you put it all on willpower, and I tell my students, you are not allowed to do that. That is a guaranteed fail in this course. If you say, well, I'm going to be nicer to people and I'm just going to do it by being nicer to people. Like, no, that's not going to work. You have to have a system. Well, I think I just, I love this because it takes away so much of the shame and self blame, which I run. I tell parents all the time, like the best way to let yourself off the hook for change is to blame and shame yourself. Like because it freezes your body. It's a freeze response from an animal defense state. When you blame and shame yourself, you're frozen. You can't change when you're frozen. So people somehow got this idea that any type of more compassionate understanding, the phone thing, it's just, it's not a willpower thing. It's actually designed to make me feel like it's never been enough and like, it's the answer to all my problems forever. So if I tell myself this, my problem, I should be stronger. That's the best way to make sure you never change. It's like so ironic because when people hear, oh, so it's not really my fault. First of all, that doesn't mean it's not your responsibility. It could still be our responsibility to think of a new system, but the system has to change. And I tell parents, because parents tell me a lot, my kids have to learn how to deal with this at some point at age, right? But I say, I don't treat that so hard as moking and everything else. Or I think that someone who wants to stop drinking, a friend who wants to stop drinking, we're never like, hey, meet me at the bar. You're going to have to figure this out. Like it's a, what, like you can't put someone into the fire and expect them not to have to deal with the fire. They need a period where their urges are developing their brains are developing and where they've seen that they can develop a life outside of a phone to be able to over time make better decisions. Another analogy I hear people sometimes make is like, well, kids need to learn how to swim. So you shouldn't keep them out of pools, right? And I'm like, okay, can we just talk about that for a second? What if that pool was filled with pedophiles, you know, and there's someone in the corner who's like, how do we get there? Sorry, really quick. It gets dark really fast. Super fun at holiday parties. You know, when there's someone in the corner who's like teaching people how to harm themselves, right? And then you've got a violent movie. It's a pool party with this violent, like, beheading. You would never let your kid learn that's not where you learn to swim. Don't learn to swim in that pool. Right. So yeah, I like the swimming metaphor too. And just to extend it without pedophiles, just because my metaphor doesn't know the better person. Most people want their kids to be able to swim in a notion. Yeah. And nobody starts by teaching your kid at a swim in a notion. People start in a training pool. But no one says that's so insane. They have to learn how to swim in a notion. Like the only way you can make better choices in more complicated environments is you actually have environments that help you learn skills. So we start a training pool. We move to a deeper pool. Eventually, we go to an ocean. Right. And I think it's the same thing. There's a period of time where kids have to be in a training pool. Like we have to help set up their environment to learn. Yeah, I'd also say, though, to flip that a little bit is that we want kids to be able to swim in the ocean of real life. Exactly. And that's what's not happening. That's exactly right. So we talk about like, where are you teaching your kids to swim? Where is that kiddie pool? It should be learning how to have conversations with people. It should be learning how to stay in your attention. Right. So yeah, and John, I know you've got a lot to say about that. Yeah. Yeah. And I just because I love metaphors, I think in metaphors and something was bothering me about the swimming metaphor. I think I got it. Swimming really is something that everyone has to do and has to learn to do. And when you swim, it doesn't damage you. It doesn't damage your brain. Okay. But what we're talking about here is much more like drinking. Okay. Does everyone have to learn how to drink? Maybe. I mean, in some religions, maybe not, but in general, you're going to be exposed to alcohol. But if we start our kids when they're two on alcohol, while the brain is developing very rapidly, you're not preparing them to be better drinkers. They're not going to be more effective drinkers because they started age two. The brain is wiring up very, very quickly based on input from the outside. And that is happening especially prenatally. So we, you know, that's why mothers have to be very careful about alcohol. So prenatally, and in the first year or two, very, very rapid. And then at puberty, very, very rapid. And so the idea that, oh, well, you know, they're going to be on social media when they're grown-ups. So let's, let's put them on at age 11 or 12, which is what we do. Most kids are getting actually TikTok is usually before age 10, Instagram, Snapchat or 10, 11. We're saying, how about if before you start puberty, we're going to rewire everything so that you're not out playing with you just, you're just doing this all day long. You're getting freaked out by people. So this is rewiring your brain. So this is not swimming. This is drinking hard alcohol when you're young. Don't do it. Yeah. You know, and that's what we advocate for is wait till 16 for social media. There's really, they don't, the kids don't need it. It hurts them. Yeah. We're talking about kids and phones. And I think in element of the conversation that I love that you guys always bring to it. And it's something I think about a lot too is our kids' relationships with phones and devices is also really impacted by our relationship with phones and devices and what we're doing in the home and what we're modeling in the home. And so I'm just curious from your perspective, how has that impacted family life us being on our phones? Yeah. Well, let's start with what we know about what these devices have done to all of us. I was just talking with a marriage therapist the other day and you can guess what she said. Couples are not having much sex or at least having a lot less. Everyone's exhausted. You get into bed and your spouse is already scrolling and so then you scroll and then you both just kind of get you fall asleep. So the phone is an experienced blocker and a relationship blocker. The phone connects you to thousands of people, including petophiles sometimes. Let's keep that in play here. But the thing is as it connects you to all those people far away, it necessarily disconnects you from the people physically around. Necessarily that has to be the case. So just what it's doing to marriages is terrible. Okay, now that's two adults. Now you've got this infant whose first struggling just to do the eye contact things, struggling just to get the reciprocity going in those first weeks and months. You have to be there for that. You have to be totally attentive. And if they see the back of the phone a lot and if they make a little bit or when they start smiling, nothing comes back, that's really bad for their development. So because these devices are our relationship blockers and presence blockers, they're terrible, especially in early childhood. So yeah, and then it just goes on from there. Yeah, I would add to that. And some people me were like, oh my god, wait, what did I, what have I done? It's really important to not have self-blame and shame in this conversation just as you're saying, Becky, because then you end up paralyzed. There's no reason for that. And I say that to adults I work with with their own phone relationships. The best time to change, maybe it was a while ago, but it's right now. I have to start now. Yeah. And to John's point, I actually had that experience with my own daughter where I was holding her when she was a baby. And I realized that I was looking at my phone as it if her and that actually inspired how to break up your phone because babies can only focus about 10 to 12 inches in front of their face. But that was the impact of not responding to your kids face was shown in this experiment called the still face experiment. A very well-known experiment that's been replicated numerous times. And basically, the idea was having a parent interact with their baby normally for a couple minutes and then go totally still face with no reaction for a couple minutes. And then they monitor what happens to the babies. They get incredibly distressed. They're cortisol levels spike. I bring that up though because one thing that, trying to access at the end of this clip that I'm referring to, is as the good news is that if you reestablish that connection, you can undo some of that. So I would say to anyone listening, this is just a wake up call for us. And we should just listen to it. But starting today, right now, you can start to model habits yourself that will really bring you closer to your children, to your partner. You know, we can open up a conversation. So there's no reason to feel bad about what's happened in the past. But let's talk about how we can move forward. You know, those weeks in winter when everyone just feels on edge, the dark, the cold, the being cooped up, it all adds up. Kids are arguing. Routines are off and you catch yourself thinking, okay, we might need reset. Look, nothing fancy or dramatic, just a little break from the norm. When I feel that way, I check out Airbnb. I'll filter for a cozy spot, a living room where we can actually relax. Maybe a snowy view, maybe a fireplace, if we're lucky. On a recent family trip, that change of scenery made such a difference. Having space to settle in, be together and step out of our usual routine helped us all reset and breathe a little easier. And something I really appreciate while we're away, we could host our home on Airbnb. So it doesn't sit empty and earns us a little extra income to put toward our next trip. But the thought of handling everything that comes with hosting sounds overwhelming. And that's where Airbnb's co-host network comes in. You can hire a vetted local co-host to help manage everything from check-ins, guest communication, and on-site support so each stay run smoothly. It's a simple practical way to earn some extra income without adding more to your plate. If you're ready to host, but want some support, find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. I do think any type of learning around parenting is the most vulnerable thing we do. Because as soon as we learn a new idea, that makes you say, oh, I didn't know that or I hadn't thought about that before. I think most parents go right to I fucked up my kid. That's it. Like I messed up my kid forever and right. And so even being open to a new idea, every parent knows like, oh, I'm kind of bringing myself to the edge of the worst parent thought ever, right? Which is I messed everything up in the failure. And what you're saying is so true. Learning is so important. It's just been that parenting has been one last area where we've made it seem like we shouldn't learn. Oh, you have everything you need. You have instinct. And so it's a new thing in our generation to be like, we can learn in parenting. But to watch for that shame, I think that's exactly right. And I think just specifically with what you're saying, I know the experience. I'm sure you guys do too. Unless your marriages are, you know, just 100% perfect. Tell me your secrets after is I know the feeling of trying to talk to my husband when he's on his phone. And I know what that feels like. And I'm a fairly well psychologically resourced 40 something year old, I will say. Okay. And I do think one of the things I think that kids are always asking their environment, even though they never ask it. And I honestly think adults are too. It's am I real? I really think that's what a baby's question is. They don't know. They don't know. Am I real? And I think when I think about the chronic experiment from all my learnings, the reason you want responsiveness, I'm going to tear up is because it's a way of saying, you're real. You did this thing. And you see a reaction. You are a real person here. And at every age, that matters. Which also means at any age that a parent's listening to this repair is where everything's that you can say to your kid, I was listening to this podcast. I was thinking beyond my phone being annoying because I know I'm on it a lot. I think it gets in the way of us being closer. And I know other people do that help and that happens to me. I just want to name that and own that. And I'm going to try to do a better job. And if I don't call me out, give me a give me a review. Hey, you're doing the phone thing again. And if we enlist our kids to even help us and we look at the feedback as helping us align with our values, rather than our kids telling us we're a bad mom or dad, that system can move things really quickly. Yeah, I would even take that a step further. I mean, I see that all the time. Or I always have an encouraging parents who are concerned about their own phone habits or their kids. It's like, okay, let's turn them around ourselves and ask our kids, hey, how do you feel when I'm around my, I'm using my phone in front of you? And I ask kids that when I give talks. Yeah. I say, have you ever felt ignored because your parents on their phone all the hands go up? But the way I think we can approach that as adults to again, like not just start beating ourselves up about it is say exactly what you're saying. Talk to your kids about, hey, I noticed that this might be having an effect on you. Totally blame us. Say that you listened to this podcast and say, how do you feel when I'm on my phone? Is there anything I can do? And couldn't you call me out on it? My husband and I actually did something where we came up with a code word for our daughter. Because I also know a lot of marriages, this can be a fraught conversation, right? Where it's like everyone gets super defensive. So we're, which thankfully was not our situation, but we were like, let's come up with a code word that our daughter can say when she feels like one of us has been on the phone. And I think she chose for some reason asparagus. She's usually a food banana. But you know, and then it's like kind of like a gentle, gentle reminder that, oh, right, I meant, so it doesn't feel confrontational or like an attack. But anyway, I think that you can bring a bit of playfulness and a bit of honestly vulnerability to the situation. It helps you connect with your kids. And it helps us all get on the same side. It's not an us versus them thing. It's us versus companies that are trying to add to our children and hack our brains. Yeah. Just like to add on, I was thinking about what you said about, you know, do, am I real? Do I exist? That's very powerful. I'd like to suggest a slightly different word. I think what they're asking themselves, what we're all asking ourselves is do I matter? And so it's similar. It's like, am I real to this person? Am I a person of worth? And the reason that what lit up for me when you said that was that the saddest graph in the access generation is the one about a survey question given to a lot of high school seniors since the 1970s. My life often feels useless. Do you agree or disagree with that on a five point scale? What we see is that in the 90s, when they first added that question, it was about 17% or so said, yes, agree or strongly disagree. And then that's Gen X. And then as the millennials go through, it goes down a little bit, maybe down to 14%. And then all of a sudden in 2012, 2013, when Gen Z enters the data set, this is born 1996 and later, it doubles. It goes up very, very quickly. This is before COVID. So something happens so that our young people born after 1995, 1996, they just feel that their lives are useless. They don't matter. And of course, because if all you're doing, you know, five hours a day is the average amount of time. That's the average that kids spend on social media. And that's mostly scrolled. It's mostly short videos. So and if that's what you do all day long, you go to classes and you scroll, your life is useless. You're not doing anything. And so anything we can do to convey to our kids, you matter. You matter to me. You matter because you're doing these things that help out our family. You're doing these errands for us later when you're a little older. So yeah, we have a matter in crisis. Yeah. Yeah. And one of these things is to show your kids that they matter is to be present with them. And so there's just some easy changes that everyone can make even starting today to help with that. One is to get the phone away from mealtimes. Say, all right, we're going to be present with each other. This is the time when we can spend time together. And I want to be present with you. And so we're going to keep our phones away. You can have a family charging station for devices that's not in anyone's bedroom. Really important. You know, and you can have conversations with your kids about this. Ask them to call you out on it. So I just think there's a lot of little things, little tweaks, getting alarm clock so that, you know, people are actually not having their days hijacked. But there's a lot of little changes we can make starting now that can make really big differences in our relationships with the other people who matter the most to us. I love those concrete suggestions. They're so manageable. And I want to bridge the gap a little bit between any parent being like, yes, I want to do that. And I think the thing that can stop parents, right? And just to like bust a couple of them. So number one, like, oh, it's kind of too late. Like, I'll do that for my next kid or I'll tell my sister to do that. But my kid already has the device in their room or we already have a different charging system. And I think I hear a lot from parents like, I can't change my mind or I don't want to go back on something I said. And I just think this perspective is important that the only thing we promise our kids, I think, is that we're going to always do the best we can with the resources we have available in the name of protecting them long term. So much of being a good parent is making decisions that your kid doesn't like short term because you think it's good for them long term. And if you think about that as your job, well, as you get more information, oh, listen to this podcast, you might quote change your decision on the surface. But that's a very surface level look. What you're actually doing is being remarkably consistent because you're saying, I'm still making the best decision I could with the resources I have. Right. And so I do think it's helpful to compare to a pilot where when you get in a flight in New York and you're going to LA, even if it's not very important, I'm going to this meeting. I have a wedding on some level your ticket is promised to get to LA. But if your pilot says, hey, I got new information. You know, I think we're going to crash whatever it is. I got new information. There's some bad lights going off. And they say, we're going to have to land in Kansas. And then you say, but you promised LA and your pilots like, you know what, you're right. I did forget, forget, forget you're right. Let's go. You freak out as a passenger. And in some ways, even to the pilot changes the landing spot, they're actually arming remarkably consistent in their job, which is to keep passengers safe with the information they have. And so I think when parents look at it that way, they don't think of it as changing their mind. They actually think about it as doing their job consistently. It's just that the application looks different. And so I just really want to make sure parents listening hear that because it affirms a change in decision while it also affirms remaining remarkably consistent to what your job is in the house. And I really want to underline the power of that metaphor. I first heard when you and I started working together in 2024. I first heard it. And and I was kind of kicking myself because it was like, I, if only I'd known that two years, two years earlier, because also emphasizing Catherine's point about having empathy for how hard it is to be a parent, I, you know, I've been studying so like I did a good job keeping my kids away from social meetup. That's what I was studying like, no, you're not having that I did a good job of that. Where I fell down was the kids had had their computers and often their phones in their bedrooms. And you know, during COVID, but even, but, you know, after COVID, like, you know, my wife urged me like, you know, make, you know, make them get it all out. We got up. But I wasn't firm with my son who was already a junior in high school and seeing, you know, and, and he, you know, and he argued back and I gave in. Yeah. And so I just want to first of all empathize like, you know, we're not seeing up here. It's like, we're the experts. Oh, yeah. We're like, you know, off the pedestal. Yeah. Exactly. We can like get on the floor. Yeah. So we, it's hard. I don't want to just acknowledge it's hard. But I really would like again, if I had heard you, if I had heard that metaphor a few years ago, I would have been able to stick to it. So I really want everybody watching to really take that seriously. Yeah. And I also have been very grateful to you, Dr. Becky, for some of the scripts that you give parents, like, quote them on my own talks. But since we're here with you, can I ask you to, like, can you remind us of how you phrase it? Because you literally have phrasing parents can use when kids come back to you. Yeah. So I think the first thing that I don't always articulate, but matter so much, because I asked this in a live event, we did in our membership, when you're about to deliver a decision to your kid, that you kind of know they're going to push back about. What percent conviction do you have in your own decision? Guess what the ranges were that people shared? Zero to 30. Zero to 30. And I was like, you know what? Forget any script. Because if you're going into telling your kid that you're no longer going to let them charge the phone in their room and you say it like this, which is what it sounds like, but 30% conviction, hey, there's no more phone in your room. Okay. Don't you think it would be a good idea? Like I picture my kid being like, are you asking me to do your job? Like I'm a 16 year old boy. I'm not. Yeah. That's a good pilot being like, we're maybe not going to go to Los Angeles. I don't know what do you think. Yeah. Cool things in emergency landings. A good idea. What? Right. If you have a hundred and that's why the first work and I think this matter so much, it's not just clinical psychology jargon, you have to look in the mirror and say it over and over until you can look in the mirror and be like, I believe myself. And the best part of being a parent, I mean this. I don't mean my kid's permission to do anything I think is best. It's actually like empowering when you realize that. It's scary, but I'm like, I'm not five anymore. It's kind of powerful. So you have to find that appropriate. We always say it good inside. It's authority without aggression. It's authority without aggression. Then I can say to my kid, and this is something I also went over recently. How many of you have started a sentence like this with your kid? I want to tell you about a decision I've made. Everyone's like, can I say that? Yes, you can. There are certain times you don't need to, but I want to tell you about a decision I've made. I've been learning about the impact. This is just one example of having your phone in the room at night. And I know you've had that from the start. So trust me, changing that. I'm not expecting it to be smooth sailing on your end, but I've learned how that can affect your sleep and other things. And I want to tell you about a decision I've made that starting tonight, your phone will no longer charge in your room. Now to clarify, I don't expect you to say thank you. I actually expect you to give me a hard time for at least 18 days about it. And even though I've changed my mind in the past, I want this time. And if it matters, I know that my job is making decisions that I believe are good for you. Even if you're not happy with me, that's actually how much I love you. And this is just going to be one of those decisions. And I know we'll get through it. Now, I think people think when I say these things to my kids on some level, they're like, sturdy leadership. That was it, mom. No. No, the way you get rewarded for making your best decisions as a parent is whining and random words that come out. I hate you. You're like, okay. But just like a CEO gets when they make a hard decision. But if you have the conviction, and yes, you have some starter language just to get in there. And if you anticipate your kids push back, you can say this weird thing at the end. I kind of that all went according to plan. Even my kids argument. I predicted the whole thing, which doesn't make it easy. But to me with parenting, often the best we get is bringing impossible to difficult. It impossible never gets to easy. It just doesn't. And if you know that, it's manageable. Although I think if you give your kids the amazing generation, it will get a lot easier. So tell me about that. Yeah. Yeah. So as soon as the anxious generation came out, parents, the mothers and kids that began asking us, is there something I can share with my child? And I'd say, well, I have a video you could show. But there was no, there was nothing good. And so we had the idea to create a children's version of the book. And we looked into hiring a person who could you know, write for children. And Catherine, I had already been working together a little bit. We'd been talking about issues about fun and play. And so she heard that we were doing this. And she volunteered for it. And my team, we talked with her about and she had all these great ideas for how to make it, not just like we written for kids. This is a totally new book. It has a graphic novel. It tells sort of the story and a graphic novel. It tells the story in the main text. There's all kinds of call out boxes and a lot of testimonials from rebels. We call them from young people who have said like, no, like this is taken my childhood. So the idea is if kids see a vision of childhood that is enticing, this isn't just I'm taking away the thing that's at the center of your life. This is, do you want to have the kind of childhood that your parents and your grandparents had? You've heard us talk about it. You've seen movies that took place in the 80s and 90s. You see that kids used to be out on bicycles. Do you want that? Or do you want to just scroll like your older siblings or your older cousins? And they say they want this. So, so Catherine, tell the good people more about this book. Well, thank you Jonathan. No, we really wanted to make something that would take the core messages of the anxious generation and the takeaways from that, which are the four norms that John writes about, which is the idea that we should delay our kids access to smartphones and social media till at least 14 for smartphones. If not later and so at least 16 for social media, we need to get phones out of schools, which is happening in an amazing rate. And we also need to help our kids have more independence and free play and responsibility in the real world. So we wanted to take those four norms and translate them into a format that would make kids excited about adopting those for themselves. And the way you do that is not to lecture at kids. It's to get them excited. So the subtitle of the book is your guide to fun and freedom in a screen filled world. And what we realized is that it makes sense that kids are clamoring for phones and social media because right now, their impression is that you get more fun and freedom and friendship is what we call in the book. On a screen, that's what the social media companies have told us. But in reality, as we all know in parents know, because we have experienced lived experience, the best stuff happens in the real world, real friendship and real freedom and real fun. And so the point of this book is to get kids excited about living that kind of life. And we actually discovered that there is this growing youth rebellion of young people who are standing up and saying, I don't want to give my life over to a technology company. Some of them in our in our our target readership, which is roughly nine to 12. It's applicable whether or not your kid already has a smartphone or social media, but we're trying to intervene early. But we also know of a lot of young people who are older than that. And their teens early 20s who also are trying to turn things around. And so we tried to give lots of examples that would inspire kids to join this rebellion. And we have what we call the rebels code, which is very simple. It's to use technology as a tool. Don't let technology use you because we're not let it's, but we're saying there's there's good screens and bad screens and then also to fill your life with real friendship freedom and fun. And what's been so cool so far, I've given some talks with early readers like at my daughter's school. I just spoke to 104th and 5th graders last week. And the kids are so excited about becoming rebels. They don't want their lives to be taken over by tech companies. And I have some thank you notes that just really know this where kids say I used to think I wanted to get TikTok and Instagram. And I've decided I want to do that. I want to hold on to my freedom for a little longer is what one of them says amazing. Well, I love this continued partnership around like highlighting the issues in a really clear way. Painting a vision for a kid is not about taking away. It's actually about a different pathway to the things you actually want. And I'm always happy to show up and help parents create the containers to make that possible in a very practical way. So this is just amazing. So I want to end with a rapid rapid fire. I'm going to have a lot of time. Okay. And your people with big thoughts. I'm going to have to limit them to small bite sized thoughts. Okay. John then if you had to draw one hard line, just one rule that you would tell every listener to really try to put in place, but only one, where would you start? No screens in the bedroom ever. If you start that early, then you can enforce it much more easily. And that will cut off the worst things that happen, which is often a screen overnight talking with strangers. Great. Catherine, first change you'd recommend to someone who says, I'm on my phone too much. Get an alarm clock. I'm amazed by how many adults tell me that's a life changing decision. I'm like, why did I bother writing a book? I could have just bought you an alarm. Great. John, then you kind of answered this, but I want you to crystallize it. Of all the ideas you put into the world, what is the hardest one that you find to live by in your own life? The hardest one that I find to live by. It would be to stop and smell the flowers, be to be more present. And I justify my, you know, I'm always thinking about work. I'm always, I just by say, well, but I'm on a mission to save childhood. So it's okay that I'm a workaholic. I've been trying since I heard a podcast from Ezra Klein on Shabbat. And I read the book or show, show. So I've been occasionally trying to honor Shabbat. And I really wish to God I had done that when my kids were little. Just say, this is a time I don't work. We don't use our phones. Yeah. And we do things. It goes back to changing things and level of goals to systems. Containers. That's what I think about containers. Like if we have a container for something, it's much more likely to happen versus world power. That's right. Right. All right. What about you? What's the hardest thing you've talked about that's like, what's the thing that you've talked about that if people saw your real life, they'd be like, yeah, this is hard for me personally. I have trouble with email. You know, I'd never have had a trouble with social media per se or it was the news and email. And so I got news apps off my phone. I try to keep you them off my phone. But it's really hard not to engage around phones, technology, social media, kids, parents, Jonathan, what's the area that you've the most hope around right now? Well, the most hope is to get all of this nonsense out of schools. That's going to include Ed Tech as well. It looks like putting a computer on kids desk was a terrible idea because they mostly just watch short videos, video games, and porn. So I'm really excited that this whole movement is going to really help education. Now then it's a little harder to change things in the home because you don't have that centralized control. But I think as people are seeing how incredibly successful the phone free schools are, how we hear laughter in the hallways again, students are library book taking, you know, taking out its gun way, way up. So I think that's going to give a lot of parents, give us all of the evidence like, yeah, you know, if we take these things away and we give them more experience like they flower. Okay, what about you? I am very excited by how excited kids seem to be about becoming a rebel and living the messages of the amazing generation. It's so heartening because if we can get kids to decide for themselves that they don't want social media accounts and that they want to delay the age at which they get full on smartphones, we've won. We've reclaimed childhood. All right, last rapid fire question, a little bit of Jason by like, to ask everyone this, yours from now for you when someone says, what was your dad like? And someone and your kids say some simple sentence, how do you hope they finished that? Well, I know that they appreciate that I'm calm and I listen to them. I guess, you know, when they're adults, I hope they would appreciate that I was committed to a vision and I worked hard for it over many years. Yeah, great. Catherine, what do you hope? You're like, when they're like, oh, my mom, she, how are they going to fit? How do you hope they finished that? I hope my daughter feels that I police saw her for who she is. Beautiful. Yeah, and that she matters. Thank you. This was incredible. Your new book is incredible, the amazing generation. Thank you for all the very important, very impactful work you've done. And I love working alongside you and I love just looking up at the work you've done and feeling so motivated about what can be possible from just a few minds. So thank you. Well, thank you. Thank you. You're back. Yeah. It's been so helpful to have your consistent guidance on how to be firm as a parent because it's something that we both have trouble with. Love working with you guys. All right, more soon. This is a conversation that's leaving me with so many thoughts, thoughts that I want to be honest with you. I haven't solved, but they're just living in my head and I'm going to give myself a little permission to kind of let them simmer and figure out exactly what to do with them. In the meantime, I'll share them with you. Number one, I was just struck by the fact that me and Jonathan and Catherine, we all struggle with this stuff in our home. If you have some vision that the three of us have these perfectly balanced screen worlds, we do not. I think the best of cats as a parent is struggling with this. And so if you're struggling, you're doing the same thing I'm doing. Number two, there is something to saying, what is the one guideline I want to implement? Why don't we make kids permission? It's one small shift. Is it how we start our day? Is it phones in the room? Is it no phones when you're sleeping? You know the place that you feel strongly about and feels manageable as a first step. And so I think that's really powerful to think about. Number three, I keep thinking about this idea that I hear a lot about from parents. My kids going to have to learn how to deal with their phone. They're going to have to figure it out. And I really love especially the reframe John gave where if we think about that, with drinking, a lot of our kids will drink alcohol. But that doesn't mean we say my kids going to have to figure it out. So I'm opening up the liquor cabinet at age three or age eight or even at age 14. There's something to development and time and there's something to firm boundaries where kids do have to figure things out. But we also have to respect their development, how these products are designed and we have to embody our appropriate parental authority. In the name of protecting our kids before they're in a better developmental place to even be able to make good decisions. That's what I'll keep thinking about. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart, put any shame or guilt on a shelf. And let's remind ourselves even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon. Okay, parents, quick check in. 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